The truth about the 1975 Muchachos
Chris Mignemi
fight about 75 'chachos, I will bestow upon all of you the truth, from Frank's
own mouth. After DQ'ing the corps after their prelims performance, Don
Pesceone went over to Frank while he was waiting to pick up the judge's tapes,
and informed him that the Muchachos had in fact won by 3 or 4 tenths over the
Madison Scouts that night. The scores were tabulated. This happened long
after the Muchachos and Scouts had left the field. Take this information as
you will. May this thread reflect only my views, and not the views of Frank
Gerris, the Hawthorne Muchachos or the Hawthorne Caballeros. Also, CAN WE GET
ON WITH OUR LIVES? Thanks bunches...
Chris Mignemi
Sunrisers 1994 - 1999
Hawthorne Caballeros 2000 - present
Your best fiend
in the history of this fine activity. This is much like the situation
with SCV in '89 or any number of strange things that have happened. This
one derives greater curiousity due to the stage upon which it was
played. If you are tired of the post, the ignore it. No one is forcing
you to respond to a message on this group.
Chris Mignemi wrote:
> Take this information as
> you will. May this thread reflect only my views, and not the views of Frank
> Gerris, the Hawthorne Muchachos or the Hawthorne Caballeros. Also, CAN WE GET
> ON WITH OUR LIVES? Thanks bunches...
Steve
--
"The world is full of Kings and Queens who blind your eyes,
then steal your dreams... It's Heaven and Hell!" - Ronnie James Dio
AJLisko
>This topic will come up again and again because people are interested
>in the history of this fine activity.
I agree. I find these historical threads enlightening. It's interesting to see
how the responses dig to the final answer - usually when someone who was there
first hand gives an account. One thread long ago dealt with the why's and
wherefore's of the formation of DCI. The amount of factual documentation
presented and the testimony given by those who attended the initial meetings
was most intriguing from a historical perspective.
Andy "checkin' out the History Channel" Lisko
Logicband1
doesn't mean that everyone read it. New people join this group every day.
In article <20020422112702...@mb-ba.aol.com>, ajl...@aol.com
(AJLisko) writes:
>Subject: Re: The truth about the 1975 Muchachos
>From: ajl...@aol.com (AJLisko)
>Date: 22 Apr 2002 15:27:02 GMT
Jerome Kimbrough
> This topic will come up again and again because people are interested
> in the history of this fine activity. This is much like the situation
> with SCV in '89 or any number of strange things that have happened. This
> one derives greater curiousity due to the stage upon which it was
> played. If you are tired of the post, the ignore it. No one is forcing
> you to respond to a message on this group.
>
> Chris Mignemi wrote:
> > Take this information as
> > you will. May this thread reflect only my views, and not the views of Frank
> > Gerris, the Hawthorne Muchachos or the Hawthorne Caballeros. Also, CAN WE GET
> > ON WITH OUR LIVES? Thanks bunches...
>
> Steve
Ok,so how come SCV wasnt dq'ed in 89,while we're on it?
J
sgordon
: CAN WE GET ON WITH OUR LIVES? Thanks bunches...
It is natural for people to remain curious about legendary situations.
And when legend has it that a world-championship corps was disqualified
right before finals, then hey there's no avoiding human interest.
People will be talking about this one for decades to come.
Incidentally, I have a friend who marched Muchachos for 7 or 8 years,
including 1975 (and the next couple of years too), and he says that
there were many overage members. But he says many other corps also
had overage members, so the corps management didn't take the threats
of disqualification seriously. He also said that they were friends
with the Scouts, so if anyone but them were to win they were glad it
was Madison. Plus Madison wasn't one of the corps pushing for the DQ.
My take? While they deserved disqualification, waiting until finals
to do it is the ultimate cruelty and a horrible thing to do to 100+
kids. If they wanted to clean up the activity, do it right and don't
be so cruel. A lot of innocent kids were psychologically messed up
and didn't have to be. This was a case of adults fighting each other
and the kids paying the ultimate price. Seems nobody ever stopped to
think what's best for the kids. I still think the whole thing was sick.
Scott
David Burkett
they successfully document someone's age?
I thought that over-age protests involved a hearing.
Just curious.
"sgordon" <sgo...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:yCYw8.19326$44.1...@typhoon.sonic.net...
Wacmac2
and he immediatly sent the 2 guys walking. The overage members never hit the
field at prelims or finals. So I'm guessing SCV was warned, they fixed it, and
everything was fine. Lee prolly knows the full story?
It's funny though, a girl in our gaurd was the girlfriend of one of the overage
guys in SCV and she said they were working it so hard, that they even got cards
from back home that said " Happy 21st B-day" even though they were older. I
always thought that was classic.
Catherine
> My take? While they deserved disqualification, waiting until finals
> to do it is the ultimate cruelty and a horrible thing to do to 100+
> kids. If they wanted to clean up the activity, do it right and don't
> be so cruel. A lot of innocent kids were psychologically messed up
> and didn't have to be. This was a case of adults fighting each other
> and the kids paying the ultimate price. Seems nobody ever stopped to
> think what's best for the kids. I still think the whole thing was sick.
>
> Scott
As with '77 Bridgemen. As with so many other corps...
But this will happen as long as anyone thinks it's fine to lie and be unfair
to even one member, particularly in an activity which holds itself out as
putting the membership first. That begins the slippery slope towards
"what's best for the organization/activity"... and who decides such things.
It's just like when one 1968 Kiltie staffmember wished to cut one kid "for
the good of the organization". The final response was "we AREN'T going to
cut him FOR THE GOOD OF THE ORGANIZATION".
-- Catherine
U82m
>Madison Scouts that night.
Wrong. Cheated. Disqualified. Didn't even place that night.
S.O.G. Designer
As a member of the class A winner that year,The Cadets of Greece, I
couldn't agree with you more!!
It was a turmulous year with a lot of administrations in many corps on
both levels and it was not to the best interest of the kids that any
administrator was looking out for!
Thanks for the post and the most chilling moment that year besides
winning Class A was being at finals ....at the announcement of the
open scores at retreat......getting down to the final 2 corps and
hearing off in the far corner of the stadium a lone muchacho sop
player (Kivet??) wailing out the "Bully Call" standing proud and
tall....needless to say the entire crowd at Franklin Field roared and
gave him a standing ovation, so emotionally that the announcer was
forced to wait for the roar to subside before he continued...fitting
tribute to a great corps!!!
Sharcast2
>Date: 4/22/02 11:27 AM Eastern
IMO, this is what makes RAMD great. I've heard so much about the Muchacho's
disqualification. But each time it's discussed, you learn a little bit more.
Sharon
thetrumpetofthelord
We should remember their wonderful sound.
Oh what a hornline.
Howdy
rumpspl...@aol.com (Chris Mignemi) wrote in message news:<20020422090752...@mb-da.aol.com>...
Dennis Doherty
that bugle call as clear as day. I think we even cheered on the field.
"S.O.G. Designer" <biggo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a418b988.02042...@posting.google.com...
Div23fan
>fight about 75 'chachos, I will bestow upon all of you the truth, from
>Frank's
>own mouth.
OK. But I have a different truth, from Don Pesceone's mouth.
>After DQ'ing the corps after their prelims performance, Don
>Pesceone went over to Frank while he was waiting to pick up the judge's
>tapes,
>and informed him that the Muchachos had in fact won by 3 or 4 tenths over the
>Madison Scouts that night. The scores were tabulated.
Pesceone told me that the score sheets were gathered and sealed in an envelope,
never tabulated. When the decision to DQ was made, Pesceone destroyed the
envelope.
Ken Mason
thetrumpetofthelord
hahahahahehehehhehehhhahahahhahahahahahahahhehehhehehehehhehehhahahahaha,
Not
Howdy
>
> Ken Mason
Sambuca312
SAM
IMdaBbCat
know. Remember the music. Muchachos live on as long as the music does.
Hornhoser
have been reading. And I was there...
I recall that the Muchachos were DQ'd after Prelims. Therefore, the
discussion of a National Champion being DQ'd is wrong. If they didn't
compete in finals, then they never could have been a champion.
I clearly recall Jeff Kivett playing that toreador theme in the
backstands, during finals, as a not-so-subtle reminder that the
Muchachos should have been there in finals. (this was actually pretty
cool)
I recall that the Muchachos, as well as several other corps, were
warned several times during the weeks leading up to Nats that DCI
would be checking for overagers and DQing anyone who doesn't comply.
So, the DCI folks were looking for specific people in specific corps
to see who marched in prelims.
I recall (from conversations with people who would be in a position to
know the facts) that once DCI saw the "targeted" overage members
marching in prelims, Pesceone immediately gathered Muchachos' score
sheets without them ever being tabulated. He later destroyed them. I
have very good sources on this one.
I recall that Madison beat the Muchachos by about 1.5 at the CYO
Nationals the contest prior to DCI prelims. I think this would have
been a lot more controversial if Muchachos had been beating Madison
coming into Nats. It's really too bad that the Muchachos didn't heed
the warning. I would have liked to see the outcome of this on the
competition field.
That's my recollection of things. If I'm wrong, I'm certain that
someone will take the time to let me know!
HH
Pharis
...the 75 Muchachos ROCKED!!!
"IMdaBbCat" <imda...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020423091909...@mb-md.aol.com...
wsplrll
versus a slightly different scenario;
"... Bayonne didn't exactly march an overage member in 1977.There were
members who were to have turned 22 in August prior to the
end of the season. Since they had been in the corps for years the idea
was to let them march up to the point of their birthday with the
alternates ready to go. This was the interpretation of the rules. Not
that that is a justification but I don't beleive that intent was to
violate the rules.
Early in the season ,BEFORE the members turned 22 the corps was
approached by DCI and told that the situation needed to be rectifed.
The corps understood that if this was done there would be no more
issue and complied.
When the corps got to Boulder for championships apparently something
had changed and Bridgemen they were DQ'ed. Hence the injunction. Since
then the rules have been clarified......"
Gee .....I hope there is not a different standard applied to SCV as
opposed to other corps ( East Coast corps)
Michael Anthony Smit
: Wow. My recollection of the facts seems somewhat different than what I
: have been reading. And I was there...
: I recall that the Muchachos were DQ'd after Prelims. Therefore, the
: discussion of a National Champion being DQ'd is wrong. If they didn't
: compete in finals, then they never could have been a champion.
They were DQ'd after prelims, because DCI's warnings that Don Warren was
going to press the issue at finals was never taken seriously enough by
the board...DCI knew of the overage issue throughout the summer tour.
: I clearly recall Jeff Kivett playing that toreador theme in the
: backstands, during finals, as a not-so-subtle reminder that the
: Muchachos should have been there in finals. (this was actually pretty
: cool)
For the first time (maybe twice). After that, audience started booing the
interuptions.
: I recall that the Muchachos, as well as several other corps, were
: warned several times during the weeks leading up to Nats that DCI
: would be checking for overagers and DQing anyone who doesn't comply.
: So, the DCI folks were looking for specific people in specific corps
: to see who marched in prelims.
Yup, and the other corps complied... (as far as DCI was concerned)
: I recall (from conversations with people who would be in a position to
: know the facts) that once DCI saw the "targeted" overage members
: marching in prelims, Pesceone immediately gathered Muchachos' score
: sheets without them ever being tabulated.
Because Don (a founding member of DCI) had stated filing would be a
given if they marched prelims...
He later destroyed them. I
: have very good sources on this one.
The sheets for prelims set up the seeding for finals..they don't mean
that much. Plan was:
1)Madison, 2)Muchachos, 3)Santa Clara, 4)27th, 5)Blue Devils, 6)Blue Stars.
or...Midwest, East, West, East, West, Midwest..a nice blend.
Muchachos DQ'd themselves, and 27th was just too dirty to go to 3rd. Devils
were clean, tight, entertaining, and looked promising for west coast
expansion. At the time, they're known for Downey's hornline, but
look at their (deserved) battery placement that year.
: I recall that Madison beat the Muchachos by about 1.5 at the CYO
: Nationals the contest prior to DCI prelims. I think this would have
: been a lot more controversial if Muchachos had been beating Madison
: coming into Nats. It's really too bad that the Muchachos didn't heed
: the warning. I would have liked to see the outcome of this on the
: competition field.
This was Madison's year, without a doubt. If DCI had anything to say
about it, Madison was going to take the title, average M@M/drumline and all.
: That's my recollection of things. If I'm wrong, I'm certain that
: someone will take the time to let me know!
: HH
--
A finals I'll never forget...Philly was brimming with
"Americanism"..Philidelphia Freedom was the hit song and the bi-centennial
was just around the corner. To see the peak of the GODs that Santa Clara's
drumline were at the time, is an experience I'll never forget....and they
didn't disappoint with that 19.6.
Ah, memories... :)
MikeS.
Michael Anthony Smit
: Michael Anthony Smit said:
: >
: >: I clearly recall Jeff Kivett playing that toreador theme in the
: >: backstands, during finals, as a not-so-subtle reminder that the
: >: Muchachos should have been there in finals. (this was actually pretty
: >: cool)
: >
: > For the first time (maybe twice). After that, audience started booing the
: >interuptions.
: I have the '75 video and don't recall hearing it more than once...??
I have the '75 videos as well, and concur that it only "appears" once. I
also clearly remember him doing it more than once, and the crowd booing
him for it (I didn't boo..too political for a young lad) . My guess is
commerical breaks, and during caption awards announcements. I do remember
the booing, and thinking that he had taken away from a good idea.
Where again does it sound on the video?..is it during scores, or
previous to Cavies hitting their OTL?
: --
: Ron in Vegas
: mailto:ron.a...@att.net
: "Because there was always something about the Skyliners...
: and that music..."
: - Donnie Solinger
: Senior Corps History site:
: http://www.SrCorps.com
--
MikeS.
Scott
>
> Michael Anthony Smit said:
>
> >
> > Where again does it sound on the video?..is it during scores, or
> >previous to Cavies hitting their OTL?
>
> before the scores were announced...
>
> --
> Ron in Vegas
> mailto:ron.a...@att.net
>
> "Because there was always something about the Skyliners...
> and that music..."
> - Donnie Solinger
>
> Senior Corps History site:
> http://www.SrCorps.com
I don't think it could have been at the beginning of retreat. He was on
the field accepting his award for top individual soprano. I remember the
loudest applause of the night came when the announcer said, "Will all
individual champions please report to the front sideline". He started
walking very slowly from the back corner of the stadium and the place
went nuts. Of course he was the last one to get there, one last dig to
DCI.
Scott
Ron in Vegas
> > I'll have to play it again, but I think it was at the beginning of Retreat,
just
> > before the scores were announced...
> >
>
> the field accepting his award for top individual soprano. I remember the
> loudest applause of the night came when the announcer said, "Will all
> individual champions please report to the front sideline". He started
> walking very slowly from the back corner of the stadium and the place
> went nuts. Of course he was the last one to get there, one last dig to
> DCI.
>
> Scott
Ah, ok... You're probably right then...
Like I said it's been a while since I watched it (I even recorded that section
at one time...)
I'm sure it was during Retreat, but am not positive exactly where...
I just remember the call interrupting the announcers, and them commenting on
it...
I'll check tonight if anyone's interested...
Thanks,
GEORGE 82
It was at the 1992 DCI Finals in Madison and Jeff Kievit was participating in
the 20th Anniversary ceremonies wearing his Muchacho uniform. As he was
standing on the front sideline during the scores, I motioned to him to grab a
horn. Jeff motioned back to me that he had his mouthpiece stashed away in his
sash.
Not too long after that once scores had been announced, I heard the familiar
"call to the Bull" coming from the back stands. There he was, in uniform,
playing that familiar riff as he also played his solo from "Pictures de Espana"
(the 1975 opener). There were alot of kids around him, cheering him on. It
was a very cool moment.
George Lea
Ron Allard
Cool story...
Isn't there a picture of those guys and uniforms around someplace?
I know I saw it a few years back...
--
Ron in Vegas
mailto:dicem...@earthlink.net
Big Rich Soprano
Agreed!!! Wish i was there!!!
..............I think i see a trend forming..... wait... yes it IS a
trend....... and our crack news department has just confirmed it. A
trend has formed in the Harrisburg area! More details as they flow in.
Now back to your regularly schedualed program.
Dan Guernsey
> Ron Allard wrote:
> >
> > Michael Anthony Smit said:
> >
> > >
> > > Where again does it sound on the video?..is it during scores, or
> > >previous to Cavies hitting their OTL?
> >
> > I'll have to play it again, but I think it was at the beginning of Retreat, just
> > before the scores were announced...
It was just after Scouts' score was announced. I have it on audio
cassette, along with the individual shows, which my parents recorded
in the stands that night. The solo comes out crystal clear as well as
an amalgam of cheers and boos from the stands. We weren't privy to
this on the field that night. I listen to the shows from that cassette
all the time in my car--the sound quality is excellent and still holds
up after nearly 27 years.
Dan Guernsey
Madison Scouts, 1970-77
wsplrll
> J
Guess nobody "pressed " the issue?????
David Barth
link below. I'm sure they are from 1975, at various shows.
Enjoy.
http://home.att.net/~unclebart/muchacho.htm
"Ron Allard" <R...@Dicemen.com> wrote in message
news:e48ecuskd8gdsacme...@4ax.com...
Wrigleyfied
I persnally think (and I started watching drum corps in 1979) that this is one
of the most fascinating and "legend"-rich occurrances in the junior corps
history of our little clubhouse, right up there with Phantom at finals in 78,
Oakland Crusaders' drumline in 77, and the Dukes of OLPH Oldbridge in 1970.
Keep 'em coming!
Tom Shea
Knights 83-88
Cadets-Perfect drum score? Yeah, RIGHT.
Div23fan
>one
>of the most fascinating and "legend"-rich occurrances in the junior corps
>history of our little clubhouse, right up there with Phantom at finals in 78,
>Oakland Crusaders' drumline in 77, and the Dukes of OLPH Oldbridge in 1970.
Tell me the one about the Dukes - I must have missed it.
GEORGE 82
>link below. I'm sure they are from 1975, at various shows.
>Enjoy.
Hey Dave...
Ya got any more??
George Lea
Mike D.
Me too....
I remember the Dukes of Old Bridge, NJ (Garden State Circuit corps)
and the OLPH (Our Lady of Perpetual Help) Ridgemen (deep blue cadet
jackets and black pants, I think).
The Dukes eventually merged with the Livingston NJ Imperial Guardsmen
to be come the Dukes of the Imperial Guard or something (late 70's),
but the 30+ mile space between Livingston and Old Bridge killed that
one off in short order.
Mike
wsplrll
> I have some photos of the Drumline that were taken by Moe Knox posted at the
> link below. I'm sure they are from 1975, at various shows.
> Enjoy.
>
> http://home.att.net/~unclebart/muchacho.htm
>
>
I remember these pics from Drum Corps News.
Sharcast2
My thanks.
Sharon
Jim in Seattle
>fight about 75 'chachos, I will bestow upon all of you the truth, from
>Frank's
>Pesceone went over to Frank while he was waiting to pick up the judge's
>tapes,
>and informed him that the Muchachos had in fact won by 3 or 4 tenths over the
>Madison Scouts that night.
http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=864419038
a cassette tape of The Hawthorne Muchachos, recorded at the prelimanary
competition at the 1975 Drum Corps International Championships in Philadelphia,
PA. While it's common knowledge that The Madison Scouts went on to become the
first non-California corps to win DCI in 1975, what is not often known is that
the Muchachos may have beaten the Scouts in prelims before being disqualified
from participating in the finals. The Muchacho's prelim score has never been
revealed but many contend they beat the Scouts and would have been Champions in
the finals. After being DQ'ed, the Muchachos were never quite the same and
disbanded a few years afterward. You be the judge and determine if they were
the better corps. Their show included "Pictures of Spain," "La Fiesta," and
"Pines of Rome." A very rare recording of a possible unheralded champion. A
must for any drum corps fan!!
http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=864419038
