** Press Release, NY Skyliners
Thatcher97
Official Release; Tuesday, May 19, 1998.
At a meeting on Sunday, May 17, the decision was made for the New York
Skyliners to go inactive for the 1998 Season.
After months of fighting through weekend after weekend of slim brass turnouts,
it has become a necessity to take time to regroup, and plan for the future with
the time we have before us.
It has been decided that the percussion section and colorguard will continue to
rehearse on a bi-weekly basis for the remainder of the summer to continue the
growth of the individuals that have committed to the corps and haven't the
desire to go elsewhere. We are committed to the continued education of those
who wish to learn, and wish to be a part of the future of the Skyliners. This
summer "workshop" will commence immediately, and work toward a presentation at
the Individual and Ensemble competition in Allentown, and possible other
performances as a percussion and guard ensemble. More to be announced.
A brass program is in planning, but as of yet there is no solid plan of attack
for this area - projected plan is to have monthly rehearsals to build a
technique program and learn literature with which to perform at I&E in
Allentown. Again, nothing has been decided as of yet, but it IS being planned.
This situation is regrettable, but is necessary for the preservation of future
Skyliner endeavours. The corps WILL NOT fold, and WILL NOT disappear. There are
too many people working in the wings to let that happen. Our mission is clear -
we must rebuild this organization. Now is the time. A year of planning is
necessary, and it is already in progress.
The Skyliners wish to thank all those who have helped us in staying strong
through this difficult period, and look forward to your continued support.
Thanks for all you've done, and keep the faith.
"We are drum corps men, who don't know when we are licked, and never will say
die!"
Thank you for your time, and we'll see you soon!
Robert Thatcher
Skyliner and Staff Member
All electronic correspondance to the Skyliners should be sent to:
that...@ny-skyliners.org
http://www.ny-skyliners.org/index.htm
News will appear on this page as soon as it is possible to post it!
Donluvbucs
>At a meeting on Sunday, May 17, the decision was made for the New York
>Skyliners to go inactive for the 1998 Season.
How very sad. It won't seem like summertime without the Skyliners. Please don't
stay away too long. Get it together and come back like gangbusters for '99.
Look what the Sunrisers have been able to accomplish since taking a year off. I
know Sky can do it too. Best of luck in your rebuilding year.
Sincerely
Donnie
Lawrence A. Visconti, Jr.
As someone who has gone through the very same thing you are going through,
I just want to send my best wishes for a quick return to the field by the
Skyliners! I know that it will not be the same without you in DCA.
Larry Visconti
Sunrisers 72-?
Thatcher97 <thatc...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199805190712...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>
> Official Release; Tuesday, May 19, 1998.
>
TrvrKn
>>At a meeting on Sunday, May 17, the decision was made for the New York
>>Skyliners to go inactive for the 1998 Season.
I know you'll come back to kick some ass! Keep going, and never EVER say
die!!!! Do it Garbarina!!!!!!!!!!
TrevorKane
HTWAVE FL
As one who was with the Conn. Hurricanes in the same situation as the NY
Skyliners are today, I wish you all the best of luck in rebuilding a great
organization. I know the hard work and sweat that goes into trying to bring an
organization back from almost being extinct to reclaiming DCA finalist stature
The staff of the Skyliners was one of the Corps that gave me encouragement in
the late 80's when trying to hold and rebuild the Hurc's.
I wish you success and encouragement to bring the Skyliners back to DCA
greatness. I know you won't let the TRADITION die.
Vic Kulinski
Conn. Hurricanes Director 1985-1989
Heat Wave of Orlando Director 1993-present
MajrBob
I/we want to send our deepest regards to the New york Skyliners.
Unfortunetly, there are many of us out here who know what it's like to rebuild
a program. But it sounds like you are definitely headed in the right direction.
Keep up the faith and continue to work hard, "the rewards will be tremendous."
DCA and the spectators alike will miss the New York Skyliners, but rest
assured, we will all be waiting for your return in 1999.
Best of Luck!!!!!!!!
Bob Gruber
Business Mgr.
Drum Major
Reading Buccaneers
David L. Braverman
I am very sorry to hear about the Skyliners' decision to go inactive for
1998. But I'm not going to sit here and repeat how sad I am without SAYING
IT LIKE IT IS.
Let's face it and be honest with ourselves. The Skyliners' director couldn't
hold a candle to the likes of "Lefty" Meyer, and I put most of the blame on
him. The guy is a complete incompetent and the blame for the current
situation rests firmly on his shoulders, and all of you know it.
The first problem the Skyliners have to fix is getting a new corps director.
Until that happens, it's going to be an up hill struggle with little hope of
turning things around.
G. Baker
Kingarlow1
A real blow to DCA and all DC fans. Good Luck on your reorganization. Anything
we can do to help just ask.
Mike Linton
Director
Rochester Crusaders
Thatcher97
>I am very sorry to hear about the Skyliners' decision to go inactive for
>1998. But I'm not going to sit here and repeat how sad I am without SAYING
>IT LIKE IT IS.
<snip>
>The first problem the Skyliners have to fix is getting a new corps director.
>Until that happens, it's going to be an up hill struggle with little hope of
>turning things around.
If you know all the answers, be proactive and do aomething about it. Name
calling and finger pointing will get the Skyliners nowhere.
Again, everyone involved in planning for the future is interested in any and
all ideas and need as much physical help as possible to get this moving. Maybe
it's time to stop TALKING and start DOING, eh?
Just a suggestion.
Robert Thatcher
Skyliner, Staff Member
For the record, if anyone would like to become a part of the rebuilding
process, email should be directed to:
Cellsphone
Hey Sky,
being someone who is with a corps fighting that same fight, I
just want you to know that all of us at Westshore wish you the best for a
speedy comeback! As a lifelong DCA and Sky fan, I will miss you very much this
summer!!!
Come back soon,
Jeff Ream
Westshore staff, past member and 1/2 a board seat(don't ask me)
Wsap1980
Sky,
Here's wishing you the very quickest of recoveries! I know it wont be the same
at any DCA show this summer without you.
At least you have the comfort in knowing that the precedence for a successful
recovery has been set.
Hopefully, Sun will be able to offer up some of their magic!
Get well soon!!!!!!!
Bill Sapienza
Palm City Fl
(Cabs 75-80,88-90)
LEG at cba
In article <6jucm1$i...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, "David L. Braverman"
<dlbmar...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Let's face it and be honest with ourselves. The Skyliners' director couldn't
>hold a candle to the likes of "Lefty" Meyer, and I put most of the blame on
>him. The guy is a complete incompetent and the blame for the current
>situation rests firmly on his shoulders, and all of you know it.
>
>
G. Baker, and everyone else....
There are problems. Those problems need to be addressed. BUT, pointing
fingers will not fix the problems. If the Skyliners are to return to the field
for 1999 as a healthy competitor, EVERYONE associated with the organization
must be willing to work together for the good of the whole. It may take
management, staff and even membership changes. If that is the way to make
things better, fine. But pointing fingers and assigning blame doesn't fix
anything. I know that many alumni are disappointed with the announcement, but
are ready to provide whatever resources are necessary to bring the corps back -
provided an environment conducive to a successful return exists.
Let's stop pointing fingers and get on with the task at hand.
Larry Girard, Jr.
Associate Member - NY Skyliners Alumni Association
Skyliners Alumni Corps 1996-??
Glen Johnson
David L. Braverman wrote:
>
> I am very sorry to hear about the Skyliners' decision to go inactive for
> 1998. But I'm not going to sit here and repeat how sad I am without SAYING
> IT LIKE IT IS.
>
> hold a candle to the likes of "Lefty" Meyer, and I put most of the blame on
> him. The guy is a complete incompetent and the blame for the current
> situation rests firmly on his shoulders, and all of you know it.
Well, after lurking in this newsgroup for years, I think its time I shot
my mouth off a little bit.
No single individual is responsible for the demise of the New York
Skyliners. The organization has been crumbling bit by bit for the last
15 years. To point the finger at Bob Holton and hang the entire
situation around his neck, is simply irresponsible. We all, and by we, I
mean current AND former members, have to take some responsibility. I was
in the corps prior to, and during Bob Holton's tenure as director. And I
know for a fact that I could have done more as a member. Maybe I could
have turned some more friends on to the corps, maybe I could have
marched more seasons than I did. Maybe I could have thrown a few more
bucks their way. Little things, people. Little things multiplied by many
hundreds of people over a dozen or more years adds up to a big
difference.
I've not agreed with many things Bob Holton did. The much ballyhooed
squabble between him and Wes Myers left the corps virtually without a
drum line in 1985 (I was the entire quad line in 1985). But by the same
token, I also personally witnessed many members refuse to cooperate with
Wes' replacement. Listen, I could go on for days about various and
sundry stuff. But the bottom line is, if Bob Holton was as incompetant
as you claim he his, the corps would have been dead and buried by 1986.
ANYWAY ...
The Skyliners now have an opportunity. An opportunity to rebuild
themselves and reinvent their organizational
culture. The corps really needs to get into and work with the area high
schools in developing talent, for example. They need to utilize
non-traditional methods for recruiting members and raising funds. They
need to do a lot of thinking outside the box. And they need to establish
a permanent home base and build a solid relationship with whatever
community that might be.
I don't want to see the Skyliners become the Yankee-Rebels, relegating
themselves to doing exhibitions a few times a year. Wrapping yourself up
in a red cadet jacket and beating your chest about pride and Gabarina
and tradition isn't going to do a damned thing to save the corps. IMHO,
the staff and management needs to approach this from the perspective of
starting a brand new drum corps from scratch, and come up with a plan
for doing just that. They need to huddle in a room and just say "How do
we make a drum corps?" . This announcement, no doubt, is going to cost
them more members from the ones they still have, so they had better plan
to start from the beginning anyway. I'd like to see them develop a field
program, work on it and build the membership over the summer, do some
parades to keep the organization active, and if they have enough bodies
by the end of the year, do an exhibition at DCA just to prove that the
corps is still alive and kicking. They need to take their time, and do
it right. They need to go all Summer, AND all during the Fall, Winter
and next spring. No breaks. No 3-4 months off when the season ends
because if you shut down for a while, you'll lose whatever momentum
you've gained in the rebuilding process.
I think there is enough talent, dedication and experience in that
organization to pull it off. This doesn't have to be the end of the
corps.
Glen Johnson
Skyliners
1980, 81, 85, 86
--
Glen Johnson US Currency
PO Box 5484
Parsippany, NJ 07054-6484
There's an auction closing every night at http://www.uspapermoney.com
SkyAlumni
On 20 May 1998 18:19:32 GMT
thatc...@aol.com (Thatcher97) wrote:
> Name calling and finger pointing will get the Skyliners nowhere.
MR. THATCHER,
The FIRST person who needs to learn this lesson is YOUR corps director.
Since the inception of the Skyliner Alumni Association, all we have EVER heard
from YOUR corps director and his "yes" men is that "the Alumni NEVER do
ANYTHING to help the corps." There isn't a word in the english language that
discribes THAT statement as pure "BULLSHIT".
If you want the finger pointing to stop, let YOUR corps director be the
first, THEN have him removed from the position of chairman of the corporation,
put control of the corps BACK into the hands of Skyliners who know how to
SUCCESSFULLY operate a business and people who know what it means to be
"SKYLINER".
For as long as I can remember, in order to be considered a "SKYLINER", you
had to have won a contest. Until THAT time you were considered a "ROOKIE". When
was the LAST time the Skyliners, under the "LEADERSHIP" of your PRESENT
chairman of the corporation and PRESENT director, won a contest?
Under his "KEEN" LEADERSHIP, and "ASTUTE" GUIDANCE, he has (since taking
entire control of Skyliner field corps) totally changed the image and
reputation of one of the greatest Senior Drum and Bugle Corps EVER to take the
field in competition, to the ONLY Senior Drum and Bugle Corps that is no long a
member of DCA. And this man is in the Hall of Fame?
It is name calling and finger pointing that has gotten the Skyliner field
corps EXACTLY where it is, but it is the finger pointing of YOUR corps director
that has put them there. And now you want the finger pointing to stop? "HOIST
ON HIS OWN PETAR". (William Shakespeare, Hamlet)
DISCLAIMER: The above views are my own and NOT those of the New York Skyliner
Alumni Association, the Alumni Chorus, the Alumni Corps, it's administration or
membership (but I'll bet, if polled, you'll find A LOT who share this view.)
Michael T. Siglow
Madonna 1953-64
Skyliners Nov. 11, 1964-70,75-78,92
Skyliners Alumni Corps Nov. 1993 til ?
Archer-Epler Musketeers 97-98
"It's not what a person accomplishes in life that matters,
it's what a person overcomes, that's what counts."
SkyAlumni
>No single individual is responsible for the demise of the New York
>Skyliners. The organization has been crumbling bit by bit for the last
>15 years.
And who has been the "BRAINS" of the Skyliner field corps during those 15
years?
>To point the finger at Bob Holton and hang the entire
>situation around his neck, is simply irresponsible.
Sorry, but that is the price of leadership.
>I was
>in the corps prior to, and during Bob Holton's tenure as director. And I
>know for a fact that I could have done more as a member.
So was I, MANY more years.
>Maybe I could
>have turned some more friends on to the corps, maybe I could have
>marched more seasons than I did. Maybe I could have thrown a few more
>bucks their way. Little things, people. Little things multiplied by many
>hundreds of people over a dozen or more years adds up to a big
>difference.
And where have you been since 1986? Not with the Alumni, who have been doing
just that and more, and then told that we "NEVER do anything for the corps."
>
>I've not agreed with many things Bob Holton did. The much ballyhooed
>squabble between him and Wes Myers left the corps virtually without a
>drum line in 1985 (I was the entire quad line in 1985).
And Wes Meyers was the FIRST of "RIFF-RAFF" that was sent packing in order to
"change" the "image and reputation" of the Skyliners to what it is today, a
FORMER member of DCA.
>But by the same
>token, I also personally witnessed many members refuse to cooperate with
>Wes' replacement.
That's the price of "changing" the "image and reputatoin" of one of the best
drum lines ever put together. Have you seen those guys play lately? They could
probably STILL kick some major ass, even today.
>Listen, I could go on for days about various and
>sundry stuff.
So could I, and I'm sure I could EASILY match you story for story, and then
some.
>But the bottom line is, if Bob Holton was as incompetant
>as you claim he his, the corps would have been dead and buried by 1986.
From 1946 to 1975, the Skyliners went from nowhere to National Champions to
nowhere to World Champions. Since 1981 (the "Holton Era") there has been a
steady "downward" trend. The incompetence began slowly, but incompetence it is
just the same.
>
>ANYWAY ...
>
>The Skyliners now have an opportunity. An opportunity to rebuild
>themselves and reinvent their organizational
>culture.
And the ONLY way that will occur is when the management of the Skyliner field
is removed from those who "changed" its "image and reputation".
Wrapping yourself up
>in a red cadet jacket and beating your chest about pride and Gabarina
>and tradition isn't going to do a damned thing to save the corps.
I agree with you there, especially if you have no idea as to what Gabarina
"Pride" and "Tradition" is all about, because the "image" and "reputation" was
"changed".
Glen Johnson
SkyAlumni wrote:
> And where have you been since 1986? Not with the Alumni, who have been doing
> just that and more, and then told that we "NEVER do anything for the corps."
In the stands. As I said in my original post, I'm the first to admit,
that I personally could have done more for the corps as a member. I'm
not above reproach.
> That's the price of "changing" the "image and reputatoin" of one of the best
> drum lines ever put together. Have you seen those guys play lately? They could
> probably STILL kick some major ass, even today.
Sure I've seen 'em. And I wasn't happy that so many people walked over
that. Bob made an atrocious mistake, no question. But all those guys did
was punish the corps for it. You're either a member of the Skyliners or
a member of the Wes Myers Club. Don't get me wrong, I like Wes Myers a
lot. But I was in the Skyliners to be in the Skyliners. I wasn't there
exclusively because Wes did the drum line. His replacement, Jim Miller,
was a failure largely because few people would cooperate with him. I
distinctly remember one of the things he wanted to do was get the snare
line to play matched grip, and they pretty much en masse, refused to do
so. The best excuse they came up with for taking that position was
"We've been doing it this way for 40 years".
What I'm trying to say is that Bob Holton is not exclusively responsible
for the demise of the corps.
>
> >Listen, I could go on for days about various and
> >sundry stuff.
>
> So could I, and I'm sure I could EASILY match you story for story, and then
> some.
Well, you know, I'm not gonna play mine is bigger than yours with you. I
think the most productive thing to do is fix the problem, not the blame.
Even if you were 100% right, that Holton is responsible for killing the
corps, well, that doesn't change reality. The organization is in trouble
and a solution needs to be found. I'm aware of the corporation control
over the corps, and that Bob is pretty much CEO for life. Maybe some
constitutional change is in order, where maybe no board member can serve
as director of the corps. I agree with you that the corporation has too
much control over the field staff.
Other than simply dumping Holton, what suggestions do you have for
bringing the corps back to life?
> Wrapping yourself up
> >in a red cadet jacket and beating your chest about pride and Gabarina
> >and tradition isn't going to do a damned thing to save the corps.
>
> I agree with you there, especially if you have no idea as to what Gabarina
> "Pride" and "Tradition" is all about, because the "image" and "reputation" was
> "changed".
Pride and tradition, while good things to have in organization, don't
win shows. Can't rest on reputation. The Skyliners never won a show
because they were the Skyliners (although we probably lost some because
of that :) , but because they were better than everyone else.
Anyway, I think the best thing to do is bounce some productive solutions
off Mr. Thatcher, and see if they run with any of 'em.
SkyAlumni
>As I said in my original post, I'm the first to admit,
>that I personally could have done more for the corps as a member. I'm
>not above reproach.
Then you fall right into Holton's delusion that it was "everyone's falt" and
not his.
> Bob made an atrocious mistake, no question. But all those guys did
>was punish the corps for it.
The Skyliners ceased to be the Skyliners the day that Holton did away with
elections, and declared himself the final authority and omnipotent figure that
would "change" the "image " and "reputation" of the corps. That, HE certainly
did. He drove away all of the "RIFF-RAFF" and what is he left with?, the cream
of the crop? If , as you say, "Bob made an atrocious mistake", that is all that
needs to be said, anything after "but" is bullshit.
> I was in the Skyliners to be in the Skyliners. I wasn't there
>exclusively because Wes did the drum line.
Everyone one who joined the Skyliners in the years BH (Before Holton) joined
for a varitable plethora of reasons. I joined because my junior corps horn
instructor, Gus Wilke played there. Tom "Bucky" Swan joined because George
Rodriguez was a Skyliner. Half the hornline from the mid fifties on joined
because Hy Drietzer was THEIR horn instructor in junior corps. This type of
recruiting was what helped make the Skyliners one of the greatest Senior Drum
Corps to take the field in competition. And then you have your reason, so be
it.
>What I'm trying to say is that Bob Holton is not exclusively responsible
>for the demise of the corps.
>
>
I disagree MOST stringently.
>Well, you know, I'm not gonna play mine is bigger than yours with you.
Smart move.
>Other than simply dumping Holton, what suggestions do you have for
>bringing the corps back to life?
>
>
Nothing will be done until Holton in no longer a part of what is presently
known as the Skyliners Senior Drum and Bugle Corps. When that occurs, then we
can talk about the future of the corps. Any discussion until that occurs would
be an exercise in futility.
>Pride and tradition, while good things to have in organization, don't
>win shows.
You don't think so?
>Can't rest on reputation.
Son, your naivete amuses me.
>The Skyliners never won a show
>because they were the Skyliners
That is redundancy at its finest.
>(although we probably lost some because
>of that :) ,
Another Holton delusion.
>but because they were better than everyone else.
Where were you during the 1966 American Legion Nationals, or the 1963 Dream, or
the 1972 DCA Championships.
When Holton no longer is affiliated in any manner, shape or form with the New
York Skyliners, then and only then will the corps have a chance of surviving.
AND HIS SIGNATURE ON A LEGAL AND BINDING CONTRACT WILL BE NEEDED AS WELL. As I
said at the last Skyliner Alumni Association meeting, "I'm getting sick and
tired of being the one turning him inot a liar."
Thatcher97
>> Name calling and finger pointing will get the Skyliners nowhere.
>
>MR. THATCHER,
>
> The FIRST person who needs to learn this lesson is YOUR corps director.
>Since the inception of the Skyliner Alumni Association, all we have EVER
>heard
>from YOUR corps director and his "yes" men is that "the Alumni NEVER do
>ANYTHING to help the corps." There isn't a word in the english language that
>discribes THAT statement as pure "BULLSHIT".
> If you want the finger pointing to stop, let YOUR corps director be the
>first, THEN have him removed from the position of chairman of the
>corporation,
>put control of the corps BACK into the hands of Skyliners who know how to
>SUCCESSFULLY operate a business and people who know what it means to be
>"SKYLINER".
> For as long as I can remember, in order to be considered a "SKYLINER",
>you
>had to have won a contest. Until THAT time you were considered a "ROOKIE".
>When
>was the LAST time the Skyliners, under the "LEADERSHIP" of your PRESENT
>chairman of the corporation and PRESENT director, won a contest?
> Under his "KEEN" LEADERSHIP, and "ASTUTE" GUIDANCE, he has (since taking
>reputation of one of the greatest Senior Drum and Bugle Corps EVER to take
>the
>field in competition, to the ONLY Senior Drum and Bugle Corps that is no long
>a
>member of DCA. And this man is in the Hall of Fame?
> It is name calling and finger pointing that has gotten the Skyliner
>field
>corps EXACTLY where it is, but it is the finger pointing of YOUR corps
>director
>that has put them there. And now you want the finger pointing to stop? "HOIST
>ON HIS OWN PETAR". (William Shakespeare, Hamlet)
>
>DISCLAIMER: The above views are my own and NOT those of the New York Skyliner
>Alumni Association, the Alumni Chorus, the Alumni Corps, it's administration
>or
>membership (but I'll bet, if polled, you'll find A LOT who share this view.)
>
>Madonna 1953-64
>Skyliners Nov. 11, 1964-70,75-78,92
>Skyliners Alumni Corps Nov. 1993 til ?
>Archer-Epler Musketeers 97-98
>"It's not what a person accomplishes in life that matters,
> it's what a person overcomes, that's what counts."
As usual, thanks, Mr. Siglow.
I certainly have not been involved with the corps as long as you have, and by
YOUR definition, I'm not a Skyliner at all, but I have the intestinal fortitude
to get in the trenches and work for the corps rather than complain about the
director.
This is all I'm going to say on this. I will not be browbeaten by a man I have
never met, and who seeks to 'educate' me continually about his position about
Bob Holton. I'm not interested. I've told you that. I had, at one point, agreed
to respect your beliefs, if you remember. What was that worth? Respect? I see
none here. Thanks very much. THIS, Michael, is an exercise in futility, and
getting back to the point I made that set you off, is NOT GETTING THE CORPS
ANYWHERE.
Certainly not a victory for our relationship, I can tell you that. : )
Robert Thatcher
Skyliners
SkyAlumni
There is a saying, "The truth may hurt, but lies kill." and it is the lies that
have killed the corps. Unfortunately, Mr. Thatcher, you are just another in a
long list of people who try to work around the problem and not fix it. You have
been exposed to one side of excuses as to why the corps is floundering and are
totally unaware as to what has transpired since 1981.
>I certainly have not been involved with the corps as long as you have, and by
>YOUR definition, I'm not a Skyliner at all, but I have the intestinal
>fortitude
>to get in the trenches and work for the corps rather than complain about the
>director.
>
>
Perhaps you are mistaking naivete for intestinal fortitude.
> I will not be browbeaten by a man I have
>never met,
Then come around the Alumni and find out I'm not the only one who has these
beliefs, we've already been witness to the sham being perpetrated by Holton,
and want nothing to do with it.
>THIS, Michael, is an exercise in futility, and
>getting back to the point I made that set you off, is NOT GETTING THE CORPS
>ANYWHERE.
>
>
Yours is the exercise in futility. Keep hitting yourself in the head with a
hammer and you're going to wind up with a lumpy head.
> and who seeks to 'educate' me continually about his position about
>Bob Holton
Education is a unique concept. An intelligent person learns from the mistakes
of others. A smart person learns from his own mistakes. Dumb people wind up
with lumpy heads. Your education will continue in spite of yourself.
>Certainly not a victory for our relationship, I can tell you that. : )
For some reason, I think I'll live.
Harry Baer IV
> >Can't rest on reputation.
>
> Son, your naivete amuses me.
Not picking a fight, but what's naive about that statement? Sky might
have been able to stay in the DCA finals for more years than anyone else
(until last year... now Cabs have that honor) but the fact that they
haven't been there proves that you can't rest on reputation...at least
not forever.
H. B. IV
Glen Johnson
SkyAlumni wrote:
> >Can't rest on reputation.
>
> Son, your naivete amuses me.
I'm not your son. You just want an argument, so there's no point in
continuing the discussion.
LEG at cba
Gentlemen, (Gentlemen????)
I'm not going to publicly take a side on who did what to whom. The back and
forth on this issue has been going on for years and look at what it has done to
the Skyliner corps and the Skyliner family at large. Do any of you *want* this
to turn out like some family arguements where relatives don't speak to each
other for the rest of their lives? DO YOU??
That's all I have to say. Think about it.
Larry Girard, Jr.
Bob Engelbrecht
How about a way to feature the alumni drumlines so the fans can see
them and let them smoke (yeah like in the old days)
TrvrKn
>The much ballyhooed
>>squabble between him and Wes Myers left the corps virtually without a
>>drum line in 1985 (I was the entire quad line in 1985).
>
>And Wes Meyers was the FIRST of "RIFF-RAFF" that was sent packing in order
If you ask me, If it ain't broke, don't fix it! all i have to sayis look at
the Alumni drum line now!!! Kick Ass job, Wes!!!!!!!
TrevorKane
LEG at cba
In article <356791...@monmouth.com>, Bob Engelbrecht <bps...@monmouth.com>
writes:
>How about a way to feature the alumni drumlines so the fans can see
>them and let them smoke (yeah like in the old days)
Stay tuned to Sky Alumni. Can't say exactly when, but staaayyyy tuned!
Larry Girard, Jr.
Bob Engelbrecht
alllll right !!!!!!
turnem loose and letem rock (just like the old days--sigh)
TARTANxRED
I must say, being a member of skyliners for this season only, i am truly
dissappointed on the inappropriate accusations made by skya...@aol.com. I
walked into this corps because my friends marched there the year before and i
was told it was a great corps. I didn't know how great until i saw sime videos
and met the members. I would not want to march anywhere but here, and i'm
still with them now, even though we are not going out this year. i would never
name call or blame one person for the situation. being a "rookie" to this
corps, our director has done every thing in his power to save this corps. He a
GREAT director and cared about the corps very much. And for you, Mr. Siglow,
to blame him for our problems, is not a very valid accusation. In my opinion,
our director did just what he should. I couldn't be more proud of being in
this corps, competing or not. I just thought you'd like a "rookies" opinion,
Mr. Siglow. Our director does not point fingers, it's only your ignorance
toward our problem. Please do not insult me or the people i'm involved with by
finger pointing.
TARTANxRED
Imust say , Mr Siglow, even though it is not my place to speak, your are doing
nothing but picking fights. I am a skyliner and you are insulting me. STOP
NOW! Please do not continue. thank you
Cellsphone
You know, being alumni/staff/board for a corps struggling to stay alive, I must
say that I am disgusted by the finger pointing I see here. Westshore could
point many fingers, and some in our ranks have, but instead of issuing blame,
why don't you all chip in and help out. Hell, i would love to our members
fighting like you guys so I could say this to them. For God's sake, quit
fighting and help Sky get back on the field!!!!!
Jeff
SkyAlumni
George J. Baker
Come on people, give me a break for God's sake.
Has anybody here seen the Skyliners over the last 11 -- 12 years?
HELLO!!!!!!!!
This corps has been nothing but a carcass out there for a bit over a decade.
Let's have some respect for the dead, bury the carcass and remember the '57,
'58, '62, '69 (the year of the most ass kickin' rendition of "Aquarius," '71
(traffic jam), '75, '76 & '77 corps and forget about it.
To continue to live vicariously through this corps' wonderful past is a bit
pathetic, isn't it?? Drop it already, it's about time they packed it in.
If at first you don't succeed, try again, then quit. No sense being a damned
fool about it.
You'd have to be out of your freaking mind to get involved with this
organization, especially if they still have the same director.
Hey...."Say goodnight, Gracie......."
G. Baker
TrvrKn
>To continue to live vicariously through this corps' wonderful past is a
>pathetic, isn't it?? Drop it already, it's about time they packed it in.<BR>
The Skyliners will NOT die! There are too many people who refuse to let that
happen! What the corps did i the past is great, but there is always room for
someone to make it bigger and better than it ever was! We just have to find
the right person to do that
.>If at first you don't succeed, try again, then quit. No sense being a
>damned<BR>
>fool about it.<BR>
"We are Drum corps men, who don't know when we are licked and never will say
die!" Those words mean a lot to anyone who ever was a Skyliner.
Sky WILL Return, and you'll be choking on this message...
TrevorKane
Cellsphone
SO JUST ALL FIGHT ABOUT WHO'S WRONG....WHY DONT YOU ALL CHIP AND HELP REBUILD
IT....GOD, WHAT A WASTE. THIS ASSININE BEHAVIOR IS MAKING A GREAT CORPS LOOK
WORSE THAN DEAD...IT'S MAKING IT LOOK CHILDISH.
JEFF
SkyAlumni
Mr. Baker,
While I can understand your feelings regarding what has occurred with the
Skyliner competing corps and the fiasco that is taking place at this time,
remember, it was you who hit the nail right on the head with your post
concerning the its director. Efforts even within the past week or so, efforts
put forth by the Skyliner Alumni corps to offer financial support, have been
REJECTED by the competing corps.
The PRIDE and TRADITION of the Skyliners will NEVER die, I assure you of that.
Not so long as there is a breath in my body or a breath in those of us were a
part of those great Skyliner corps of the past who are now members of the the
Skyliner Alumni corps. And as TrevorKane (I know your real identity <G>) said,
there will be a bigger and better Skyliner competing corps, maybe not next
year, or the year after, but soon.
TrvrKn
well put, Mikey!
TrevorKane
BRSOMANIAC
re: the ugly responces to Sky's recent situation:
Having gone through a similar experience, my heart goes out to Bob Holton. The
Corps Director and other key people who sacrifice much of their personal lives
to get field corps out today are rarely appreciated, and often carry the blame
when things go badly. It is convenient for the lowlifes to come out of the
woodwork when a corps goes inactive. Unfortunately, our activity has more than
its share of lazy and cowardly characters who find it far easier to complain
than to help.
It is just these selfish and little-minded attitutes that have chased me from
participation in the activity. When all of the Bob Holton's have had enough
and walk away, then we'll find out how little these critics have to offer to
fill the void.
I don't know how to reach Bob or the Skyliners, but I hope that someone will
pass this message on to them. Good luck with getting the corps back out for
next season!
Tom MacDonald
Brsom...@aol.com
brsomaniac
SkyAlumni
On 26 May 1998 02:54:42 GMT
brsom...@aol.com (BRSOMANIAC) wrote:
>Having gone through a similar experience, my heart goes out to Bob Holton.
Sir, if you were in the SAME circumstances as the incompetent individual who
has been the "brains?" behind the Skyliners over past 17 years then you too are
as incompetent as he is. I sincerely doubt that this is the case. I know that
you have NO idea of what has occurred over the past 17 years. If you did know,
and you still felt the same way as you do now then, indeed, I would view you
with the same attitude as I do those who are in charge of/cause of the demise
of the Skyliners.
>When all of the Bob Holton's have had enough
>and walk away, then we'll find out how little these critics have to offer to
>fill the void.
Well, we've already seen what incompetence can do, and I'm know the people who
will right the corps are just waiting for Holton to resign in order to get the
corps BACK to its rightful place in the drum corps community. But this will
ONLY occur when Holton has resigned and has put this in writing.
Cellsphone
THEN YOU RUN IT MIKE SINCE YOU KNOW SO DAMN MUCH
SkyAlumni
As soon as Holton presents his signed resignation there will be a slate of
competent individuals who will be more then willing to assume the
responsibility of righting the corps. No further information will be fothcoming
until that signed resignation is presented.
Bridgemen Webmaster
George:
It's also been obvious over the past 5-10 years (or however long
you've been spewing your garbage at the drum corps populice via
computer) that you are complete and total loser with no regard for
anyone or anything other than your own pathetic intellilect.
So why live vicariously through this electronic existance? Why don't
you just kill yourself and end our suffering now? Take a shot for the
good of man kind and remove one more bit of trailer trash from the
earth.
See George, it's all a matter of perspective. By the way, I suspect
if it was your precious Cabs that had fallen on hard times (no offense
to the Cabs, just illustrating Mr. Bakers hypocrisy), I have no doubt
that you would have a different take on things.
George. For the good of all, shut up. Stop wasting Internet
Bandwidth on your hot air.
Doug Luberts
"George J. Baker" <73303...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>Come on people, give me a break for God's sake.
>
>Has anybody here seen the Skyliners over the last 11 -- 12 years?
>HELLO!!!!!!!!
>
>This corps has been nothing but a carcass out there for a bit over a decade.
>
>Let's have some respect for the dead, bury the carcass and remember the '57,
>'58, '62, '69 (the year of the most ass kickin' rendition of "Aquarius," '71
>(traffic jam), '75, '76 & '77 corps and forget about it.
>
>To continue to live vicariously through this corps' wonderful past is a bit
>pathetic, isn't it?? Drop it already, it's about time they packed it in.
>
>If at first you don't succeed, try again, then quit. No sense being a damned
>fool about it.
>
>You'd have to be out of your freaking mind to get involved with this
>organization, especially if they still have the same director.
>
>Hey...."Say goodnight, Gracie......."
>
>G. Baker
>
>
***************************************************************
Doug Luberts
dlub...@citationsystems.com
http://www.citationsystems.com
***************************************************************
LEG at cba
Okay, even though I said I was going to stay out of this, I can't.
I'll preface my commentary with the following - I WAS NEVER A MEMBER OF THE NY
SKYLINERS, although I am an associate member of their alumni association and a
member of the Skyliners Alumni drum corps.
NOW, here's what I have to say....
First off, I KNOW first hand what it is like to run a drum corps. It is not
easy, nor is it a "glory" job. I know the sleepless nights that go into
keeping the corps going, worrying about making financial commitments, and all
that other stuff. If you want to run a drum corps, you'd better be ready to
get a load of crap every time things go wrong and you'd best not expect any
praise when things go right. That burden is lessened if the corps is
incorporated and has a board of directors to make major decisions and provide
guidance and direction to the corps management team. Members of the board need
not be experienced drum corps people. Their expertise is not required for
teaching the corps, rather they are there to run the BUSINESS end of the corps.
Like it or not, the corps membership does not run the corps - the board of
directors does. Members are only participants in the activity. If they want a
seat on the board, they can HELP make financial, management and staff
decisions. But it is a BOARD, not a rubber stamp - and every board member must
have an equal voice and vote.
Case in point - I was part of a committee trying to start a corps. The people
on the committee asked me to chair it. I was reluctant to do the job because
another person had done quite a bit of ground work and was geographically
closer to the action. He agreed that I should accept the chairmanship. Then,
without telling the committee anything, he was doing things that could affect
the future of the entire program. Whether the affect would be positive or
negative is immaterial here. The fact that one person was acting without the
consent of the committee was improper. We could not settle our differences, so
I left the committee. This person wanted a group to work FOR him, not a group
to work WITH him.
Now, the board of directors should elect a slate of officers (as required by
law) to conduct the business of the corporation. They then APPOINT an
operating officer, in corps lingo a DIRECTOR, to run the day-to-day operations
of the drum corps. The corps director should not be a voting member of the
board - that's a simple checks and balances thing. Also, the board should
approve all paid positions. The board should require a checking account with
two signatures on each check. And the list goes on.
Notice that everything that has a significant impact on the operation of the
corporation is decided by the BOD, not the director???? Well, that's the ideal
case. There are varying degrees of "liberalism" exercised by some corporations.
They allow their director certain autonomy for reasons of convenience.
Sometimes the board errs and the director has too much freedom. When this
happens, it opens up a whole can of worms.
Enter the New York Skyliners, Inc., a New Jersey nonprofit corporation. The
last available IRS information on this corporation (1992) indicates assets of
$10,482 and income of $62,430. In comparison to other DCA corps, both of these
amounts are off by a factor of 5. This should tell us something about the
financial health of the corporation. I have been told (and this is anecdotal
information) that members have requested a copy of the corporation by-laws and
could not get them. I have also heard a number of other rumors regarding staff
payroll, that I will not air here.
My personal observation is that the Skyliners have been on a downward spiral
for a number of years, this is NOT a one year plunge. When this sort of thing
happens, a prudent board of directors must ask WHY? And if they don't they are
not carrying out their fiduciary responsibility to the benefactors. So, was
the question asked??? If it was, what was the answer?? Did the board ever
consider a change in management?? If so, why did they decide the way they
did??
Now, I don't personally need the answers to these questions and I'm not writing
this to get hate mail, but I think there is a lot more to this problem than the
mere fact that the Skyliners could only get 8 horns to rehearsals. That might
be the reason the corps went inactive, but it is indicative of a much bigger
problem. A problem that will require more than money and a year off to fix.
I'm not sure exactly what the problem is, and I don't want Mike or anyone else
to come back with "It's Bob Holton, you ass!" Maybe it is. Maybe it is the
people on the board who put him there. Maybe it's time for the corporation to
be dissolved and start over.
Oh, yes, before I stop writing. Some have said that the Skyliners Alumni
hasn't done crap for the field corps. THAT'S BULLSHIT. I was there at the
alumni association meeting when the field corps asked for help in buying two
contras. The corps representative made a presentation and following a
democratic vote, walked out of the meeting with $2000 to buy the horns. The
alumni drum corps has never recruited members from the field corps, unless
those members had made a personal decision to not march. The alumni corps and
field corps hornlines played together on stage at the 1997 Hall of Fame show.
Ask the members of either hornline about the feeling we had that night. Two of
the finest Skyliner alumni members helped with the field corps hornline GRATIS,
while marching members were being paid to teach. (Not that they didn't deserve
to be paid, but these alumni didn't have their hand out as a condition of
helping the corps.) So let's get off this "alumni don't care" kick. The
Alumni do care. Maybe a little too much in some cases.
Larry Girard, Jr.
MJPUDSTER
>From: cells...@aol.com (Cellsphone)
>Date: Tue, May 26, 1998 00:03 EDT
>Message-id: <199805260403...@ladder03.news.aol.com>
>
>THEN YOU RUN IT MIKE SINCE YOU KNOW SO DAMN MUCH
Geez, why don't you guys email back and forth to each other. You've got each
others email address, it's at the beginning of your posts. Duh.
"Could this planet be some other planet's hell?"
George J. Baker
SkyAlumni wrote in message
<199805260045...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>Mr. Baker,
>
>While I can understand your feelings regarding what has occurred with the
>Skyliner competing corps and the fiasco that is taking place at this time,
>remember, it was you who hit the nail right on the head with your post
>concerning the its director. Efforts even within the past week or so,
efforts
>put forth by the Skyliner Alumni corps to offer financial support, have
been
>REJECTED by the competing corps.
>
>The PRIDE and TRADITION of the Skyliners will NEVER die, I assure you of
that.
>Not so long as there is a breath in my body or a breath in those of us were
a
>part of those great Skyliner corps of the past who are now members of the
the
>Skyliner Alumni corps.
Mr. Siglow,
Thank you.
My intent was to push some of you into action.
Finally, someone here has the balls to stand up, use his head, and say, "Mr.
Baker, while you may be a bit crude, even rude, and brutally honest, you hit
the nail on the head."
You folks better start laying down the law, grab people by their shirt
collar, get a good lawyer, and throw the garbage out the door. You could
certainly make an excellent case for neglect of duties.
Sometimes you have to be a prick.
G. Baker
SkyAlumni
On Tue, 26 May 1998 15:01:43 -0400
"George J. Baker" <73303...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>Sometimes you have to be a prick.
Well, there certainly are enough people on RAMD who already see me as just that
(and I plead guilty).
mda...@ets.org
In article <199805261147...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
skya...@aol.com (SkyAlumni) wrote:
>
> As soon as Holton presents his signed resignation there will be a slate of
> competent individuals who will be more then willing to assume the
> responsibility of righting the corps. No further information will be
fothcoming
> until that signed resignation is presented.
>
Mike,
I'm making no claims as to Bob's abilities to run the Skyliners, but as a man
I judged along side of for 15 years, and who has judged the band I now teach,
I've always found him to be warm, considerate, and very professional.
His concern for doing a good job judging, and his interest in the kids
marching on the field, has always shone through on all of his tapes and at
critiques.
Mike, Garfield 70-72, Asst MB director, West Windsor/Plainsboro HS Marching
Band 94-??
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
SkyAlumni
>I'm making no claims as to Bob's abilities to run the Skyliners,
THAT is the issue Mr. Davis, his judging ability has NO place on this thread.
The rest of your post is of no consequence whatsoever.
mda...@ets.org
In article <199805272126...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
skya...@aol.com (SkyAlumni) wrote:
>
> On Wed, 27 May 1998 12:49:41 GMT
> mda...@ets.org wrote:
>
> >I'm making no claims as to Bob's abilities to run the Skyliners,
>
> THAT is the issue Mr. Davis, his judging ability has NO place on this
thread.
Well, Bob has been battered around pretty good here, so I thought I'd at least
weigh in with SOME sort of positive feeling about him. I make NO judgements as
to his capabilities as a corps director; it's just my opinon of him as a
person.
> The rest of your post is of no consequence whatsoever.
>
Well, if standing up for an individual on a personal level is of no
consequence, than I guess you're right.
> "It's not what a person accomplishes in life that matters,
> it's what a person overcomes, that's what counts."
>
If you really believe that, why the personal attacks?
Mike, Garfield 70-72
SkyAlumni
Mr Davis,
Within my chosen profession (clinical social work), it is my avocation to
assist my clients by empowering them to find out for themselves what they can
do to better their lot in life. This usually is a long drawn out process which
can encompass months (and sometimes years) of therapy. This is sometimes called
"enabling". Provided the "enabling" is used in a therapeutic setting, this
process is found to be a very successful and useful tool. Within that process,
positive stroking (which you have chosen to demonstrate) is vital to the
client, and should be performed as often as it can (Pavlovian?).
THAT IS PROVIDED THAT THE INDIVIDUAL IN QUESTION IS WILLING TO LOOK AT HIS/HER
"OWN" BEHAVIOR AND BE WILLING TO CORRECT OR ADMIT TO THE MISTAKES THAT HE/SHE
HAS MADE IN THE PAST. THIS IS NOT THE CASE HERE.
There is another type of "enabling" that a lot of people (non-professionals)
have fallen victim to. People fall victim to "enabling" behavior when they
unwittingly continue to allow a person to perform destructive behavior to
either themselves OR others, or to themselves AND others. In the case of the
Skyliner field corps, the people who continued to allow Bob Holton to continue
his "changing" the "image" and "reputation" of one of the greatest Senior corps
ever to take the field, have played the role of "enablers". In a VERY REAL
sense, Glen Johnson (my apologies to his father) is correct in his assertion
that Bob Holton is not 100% responsible for the demise of the Skyliners. Those
who "enabl" (or allow) him to continue his "strangle hold" on the corps are
just as responsible as Holton for the present condition of the Skyliners field
corps as is Holton himself.
In 1993, when voicing my concern for the condition of the Skyliner field corps,
I was told, "Mike, I see the Skyliners as a little child that need to be
nurtured and carrassed." My response was "And when the child is being abused,
you need to remove the child from those who are abusing it." In 1992 I was told
by someone that one of the reasons why elections were done away with was
because "everyone else had moved to the corporate style of management, and it
works for them." Well, in the case of the Skyliners, it is obvious that is not
the case, or at the very least, not under the leadership of Bob Holton.
I've had E-mail conversations with Sean Holton and I have to agree with him
when he says, "A lot of people do a lot of "preaching"......"but when it comes
time to put up or shut up, they SHUT UP." In the past, a lot of people have
done a lot of talking and when any one of them had the courage to stand up and
be counted, all the other supposed malcontents gave absolutely NO support and
they all took ten steps back, hanging whoever out to dry.
I was told via E-mail that if I were to bring someone to the table who was
willing to take over the corps, I would probably get my wish and the Holton's
would be gone. They were told that could be arranged. They were told that
before any further talks take place, Bob Holton must hand in his signed
resignation, and that all feduciary situations need to be seen to, and there
will be a slate of competent individuals who will be willing to right the
corps. I've put up. And my conditions are non-negotiable. I have yet to hear
any response, therefore I am to assume they have shut up.
Be that as it may, the claims being made by the Skyliner field corps
administration that it is everyone else's fault that they are in such dire
straits will no longer be tolerated because I will no longer play the role of
"ENABLER" to those who REFUSE to admit their mistakes and will do NOTHING to
correct them.
Michael T. Siglow
Madonna 1953-64
Skyliners Nov. 11, 1964-70,75-78,92
Skyliners Alumni Corps Nov. 1993 til ?
Archer-Epler Musketeers 97-98
SkyAlumni
>> "It's not what a person accomplishes in life that matters,
>> it's what a person overcomes, that's what counts."
>>
>
>
When people overcome their own character defects is when they can be most
helpful to others.
Glen Johnson
SkyAlumni wrote:
> In a VERY REAL
> sense, Glen Johnson (my apologies to his father)
???
My father?
> I was told via E-mail that if I were to bring someone to the table who was
> willing to take over the corps, I would probably get my wish and the Holton's
> would be gone. They were told that could be arranged. They were told that
> before any further talks take place, Bob Holton must hand in his signed
> resignation, and that all feduciary situations need to be seen to, and there
> will be a slate of competent individuals who will be willing to right the
> corps. I've put up. And my conditions are non-negotiable. I have yet to hear
> any response, therefore I am to assume they have shut up.
Ok, let's see if I can ask some questions here without you taking my
head off. Understand that I'm not remotely interested in arguing with
people for the sake of arguing; I have better things to do with my time.
I've been told that the Skyliners, prior to the announcement about going
inactive, were averaging about a dozen horn players showing up for
rehearsal. Obviously, you can't field a corps of 12 horns in DCA.
If Bob Holton walked out tomorrow, completely severing all ties with the
organization, would 60 horn players walk in the door the next day? You
and I both know the answer to that.
Putting this organization back together, IF that's even at all POSSIBLE,
is not going to be an overnight process, and its not going to happen
magically by one person retiring.
There are things that need to be done to resurrect the corps. Either Bob
Holton & Co has to do those things, or Mr. New Director & New Co need to
do those things. But the simple fact is, if those things DON'T GET DONE,
we have seen the last performance of the New York Skyliners.
Last year, I ran into Bob at Hawthorne's show in ... wherever the heck
that was in Bergen County. Fairlawn?
We had a brief chat, and _I_ actually felt guilty about not doing more
as a former member of the corps, both during and after my time in
uniform. I did volunteer to go out on the field as an assistant DM, or
in the honor guard or something; just to add another body to the corps.
Someone (I confess I forgot who, but it wasn't Bob) offered to send me a
schedule. I had been out of the loop for a long time, so I honestly had
no idea what the corps schedule was. Nobody mailed me that schedule, and
that pretty much was the end of that. I did write the corps a check for
$500 as a donation and gave it to Bob. He was very appreciative, and I
admit, if I could do nothing else to help the corps, making that
donation made ME feel good. I dunno, maybe I was looking for
vindication.
I PERSONALLY would not want to be the director of the New York
Skyliners. It is no doubt a thankless job, chock full of pure
aggravation, and it will take over your life. I can't imagine someone
actually WANTING that job. But I still have yet to hear from anyone
involved in this discussion, any constructive ideas for putting the
corps back together. Just a lot of "its HIS fault".
--
Glen Johnson US Currency
PO Box 5484
Parsippany, NJ 07054-6484
There's an auction closing every night at http://www.uspapermoney.com
Visa/MC
Jim Dockery
I am a former Caballero. I do not want to get into the middle of this
discussion, but one thing has hit me right between the eyes. However, I
will preface this by saying that the Skyliners were my favorite rival and
opponent way back when. I WANT them around. Balance is wonderful. A
little stress is amazing.
I keep hearing the word "resignation" being bantered around.
I don't know about your bylaws. How about the word "VOTE". That's what hit
me between the eyes. If you can, that should at least let you choose your
future direction, for better or worse.
Will this solve your problems and get things back to a good, competitive
lifestyle.
(smile here) I can't picture the world without a Skyliner to pick on.
Jim Dockery
SkyAlumni
>Ok, let's see if I can ask some questions here without you taking my
>head off.
Sure.
>I've been told that the Skyliners, prior to the announcement about going
>inactive, were averaging about a dozen horn players showing up for
>rehearsal.
More like seven (7), but close enough.
>Putting this organization back together, IF that's even at all POSSIBLE,
>is not going to be an overnight process, and its not going to happen
>magically by one person retiring.
Agreed, and that will not occur until Bob Holton is gone.
> if those things DON'T GET DONE,
>we have seen the last performance of the New York Skyliners.
>
>
If the last performance of the Skyliners, with Bob Holton as the "brains",
occurred last year then that will be a plus, and a fresh start for the Skyliner
field corps.
>Last year, I ran into Bob at Hawthorne's show in ... wherever the heck
>that was in Bergen County. Fairlawn?
>We had a brief chat, and _I_ actually felt guilty about not doing more
>as a former member of the corps, both during and after my time in
>uniform.
I'm only going to say this once Glen, so put it in your "Favorite Places" file,
YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME FOR THE DEMISE OF THE SKYLINER FIELD CORPS. That is a
delusion created by Bob Holton. The obstacle in the Skyliner field corps path
is the Bob Holton "honestly", in his own mind, believes his own bullshit. That
is why he so convincingly got you to feel guilty.
>Someone (I confess I forgot who, but it wasn't Bob) offered to send me a
>schedule.
If he were interested in having you come back to help out, why didn't he see to
it that you received that schedule. A true leader would have seen to it.
.> But I still have yet to hear from anyone
>involved in this discussion, any constructive ideas for putting the
>corps back together.
And you probably won't until Bob Holton hands in his resignation with HIS
signature on it.
>Just a lot of "its HIS fault".
Well, Glen, let's face it, it's better then you feeling guilty over something
you had no control over.
Bob Engelbrecht
Hey! play nice now you two.
SkyAlumni
>I don't know about your bylaws.
Neither do any of the members of the Skyliner field corps. A few years ago,
some of the members asked to see a copy of the by-laws. None was forthcoming.
>How about the word "VOTE".
That word does not exist in the Skyliner field corps dictionary. The right of
the life-time members of the corps to vote in elections for new corps director
were removed by Bob Holton, because he was not in favor of who was going to be
the new director about 10 years ago. Some of us have had some VERY interesting
discussions as to how to address THAT situation in the MOST democratic way.
>(smile here) I can't picture the world without a Skyliner to pick on.
>
>
<BIG GRIN> And vice versa I'm sure. And might I add it was always a pleasure to
kick your ass as much (nd as often) as we did, and an undoubtedly painful
experience when the shoe was on your foot.
TrvrKn
> The alumni corps and<BR>
>field corps hornlines played together on stage at the 1997 Hall of Fame show.
>Ask the members of either hornline about the feeling we had that night.
That show KICKED ASS!!!! That's when i knew I had to join
TrevorKane
mda...@ets.org
In article <199805281655...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
skya...@aol.com (SkyAlumni) wrote:
>
Mr Siglow (since we're being formal here),
I can in NO way attest to the good or bad of Bob's capabilities as an
administrator and director of one of the GREAT corps of alll time, the NY
Skyliners. Maybe I should not have voiced any support for Bob, but as he's a
person I know in another venue, (e.g. marching band judging) I felt I would
like to at least speak up a bit for the person I know. He may indeed be the
reason Sky is inactive; I have no way of knowing as I am not involved in drum
corps at all right now. However, my contact with him has always been first
rate, as a fellow judge and now as an instructor of a band he has judged. I
felt I couldn't let the whole thing pass without speaking my own small piece,
even if it IS irrelevant to the situation at Sky. From my experience, I have
nothing but respect for Bob as a judge and as a person; that's all I wanted to
say. When you see all of the negatives about a person who you have always had
respect for, it's only natural to want to voice some positive feelings. I also
feel it's incumbent on me to NOT ignore those feelings and to contribute my
$0.02, even if that is all it's actually worth.
I hope something can happen to bring Sky back to the field, as DCA without NY
is sad to contemplate.
Mike, Garfield 70-72
MAA/EMBA percussion/music adjudicator 1976-94
Asst MB director, West Windsor/Plainsboro HS Marching Band,
94-??
BRSOMANIAC
>As soon as Holton presents his signed resignation there will be a slate of
>competent individuals who will be more then willing to assume the
>responsibility of righting the corps. No further information will be
>fothcoming
>until that signed resignation is presented.
We're to beleive that you have some huge secret that will save the activity?
Maybe you'll share it with everyone once you're elected king
brsomaniac
BRSOMANIAC
>THEN YOU RUN IT MIKE SINCE YOU KNOW SO DAMN MUCH
ditto, cellsphone
i have no doubt that this dinosaur, who has nothing to do but spew garbage on
the internet, would be speachless if given any real responsibility - I have
not heard one single suggestion from him as to what he would have done to right
things.
brsomaniac
Harry Baer IV
> >Putting this organization back together, IF that's even at all POSSIBLE,
> >is not going to be an overnight process, and its not going to happen
> >magically by one person retiring.
>
> Agreed, and that will not occur until Bob Holton is gone.
Ummmm... I hate to say it, but we thought the same thing last year, and
the problems have NOT gone away. One person's departure is not going to
change the entire attitude of a corps. I have little doubt that you're
right, Mr. Siglow, that the director has to go, but I think what most of
the people here are saying that you shouldn't look at it as a panacea.
Some people have no doubt been so disillusioned by the things that have
happened that they will NEVER come back. Just a thought.
--
Harry Baer IV
rec.roller-coaster
rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Westshoremen '96, '97
GMS66
What I find very ammusing is that this is the exact thing that killed the corp
in the first place.. NOT the Bob holtons,everyone bitches so much but no one
does anything about it. if you dont like the director come up with some
alternatives pissing people off isnt going to get you anywere.....I know I was
there
Kevin Murphy
TrvrKn
> - I have<BR>
>not heard one single suggestion from him as to what he would have done to
>things. <BR>
><BR>
I think the suggesstion was to get a new director. I don't know who, but i'm
sure there's someone out there
TrevorKane
SkyAlumni
>I can in NO way attest to the good or bad of Bob's capabilities as an
>administrator and director of one of the GREAT corps of alll time, the NY
>Skyliners.
Well, Mr. Davis, that is what is at issue here. As for your views as to what a
great person Bob Holton is, there are differences of opinion there as well. On
the other hand, being a great person is not necessarily the best criteria to
determine a person's capabilities to perform the task of running and operating
a successful drum corps.
>He may indeed be the
>reason Sky is inactive; I have no way of knowing as I am not involved in drum
>corps at all right now.
Again, this is the issue and since, as you say, you are not involved in drum
corps at this time, how could you possibly know what is going on. A couple of
the comments I've received from those who read these posts is, "Well, at least
people are a little more aware of what is happening." and "If I didn't know
where you are coming from I'd think you were being a little harsh, but I know
where you're coming from."
> From my experience, I have
>nothing but respect for Bob as a judge and as a person; that's all I wanted
>to
>say.
Geez, I wish the people who do NOT share this view and have known Bob Holton
for a longer period of time then you and on a much more personal level then you
had computers and subscribe to the net so they could give their opinion as to
his character.
> I also
>feel it's incumbent on me to NOT ignore those feelings and to contribute my
>$0.02, even if that is all it's actually worth.
Incumbency is not a feeling, it is a task. A lot of us confuse the word think
with the word feel. Happy is a feeling, sad is a feeling. You thought it was
incumbent on you to not ignore your feelings. As for what your feelings are
worth? Only you can put a price tag on them, they are yours.
SkyAlumni
>Ummmm... I hate to say it, but we thought the same thing last year, and
>the problems have NOT gone away. One person's departure is not going to
>change the entire attitude of a corps.
Agreed. The only people who are left are those who still under the delusion
that Bob Holton is the Savior of the Skyliners, or those who are Bob Holton
"lackies" who are possibly trying to build their drum corps resumes, or those
who are just too old to go anywhere else. Of the six horns who were ready to
march with the Skyliner field corps this past weekend, two have since left and
will march elsewhere this season. Change the entire attitude of a corps? They
don't have an attitude, at least not a winning one.
I have little doubt that you're
>right, Mr. Siglow, that the director has to go, but I think what most of
>the people here are saying that you shouldn't look at it as a panacea.
Agreed again. A complete and thorough house cleaning is in order.
>Some people have no doubt been so disillusioned by the things that have
>happened that they will NEVER come back.
God damn it Harry, you're right on the money again. But I think that if, under
a entirely new (or returning to the old) system of the way the Skyliners were
run, you would see A LOT of people come out of the wood work.
> Just a thought.
>--
Thanks.
SkyAlumni
On 29 May 1998 22:01:18 GMT
brsom...@aol.com (BRSOMANIAC) wrote:
>We're to beleive that you have some huge secret that will save the activity?
>Maybe you'll share it with everyone once you're elected king
>brsomaniac
Is that the editorial we? or are you speaking for YOUR kingdom.
If you don't have the courage to identify yourself, then your opinion is worth
the same as your signature.
And, that's "i" before "e" except after "c". believe, not beleive.
Cellsphone
Hey Mike,
So when are you going to apply for the job? Obviously you have all
the answers.
Jeff
mda...@ets.org
In article <199805310243...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
skya...@aol.com (SkyAlumni) wrote:
>
> On Fri, 29 May 1998 13:20:55 GMT
> mda...@ets.org wrote:
>
>On
> the other hand, being a great person is not necessarily the best criteria to
> determine a person's capabilities to perform the task of running and
operating
> a successful drum corps.
>
No disagreement there. I never claimed to know what kind of job he did as
director. Obviously the person at the top of an organization that fails has to
accept a major amount of responsibility for that failure. But, those
other folks involved who let it fail without taking steps to avoid it have to
take some of the responsibility as well.
>
> Again, this is the issue and since, as you say, you are not involved in
drum
> corps at this time, how could you possibly know what is going on.
Never claimed to; I was just putting in a small positive feeling I have about
Bob, as a judge and person who I've known casually for 20 years or close to
it.
>A couple of
> the comments I've received from those who read these posts is, "Well, at
least
> people are a little more aware of what is happening." and "If I didn't know
> where you are coming from I'd think you were being a little harsh, but I
know
> where you're coming from."
>
Your assessment of Bob's leadership may or may not be right on the money.
However, the question I have is why did the membership of Sky stand by and let
it die, if all it would have taken is to kick him out? I judged them around 91
or so, at the Barnum Festival (GE Percussion) and thought they were pretty
darn good. Surely a group of concerned folks could have forced Bob out if they
saw that he was destroying the corps. It's easy to point fingers AFTER the
disaster, as can be seen in the 'Titanic' film; it's harder to avoid the
disaster in the first place.
>
> Geez, I wish the people who do NOT share this view and have known Bob Holton
> for a longer period of time then you and on a much more personal level then
you
> had computers and subscribe to the net so they could give their opinion as
to
> his character.
>
Fine, they may see a different person than I have. Doesn't change MY view.
Take care.
Mike
DOREEN GIRARDI
Dear Mike:
I am saddened that you find it necessary to further a personal vendetta
against Bob Holton in such a public forum. You have been vocal in the
past, and that is your right of course (this is America and freedom of
speech is a right) but I question your motives about singling out Bob in
such a vehement, slanderous manner over the Internet! I find it especially
disappointing since we are fellow Skyliners/Skyliner alumni. Certainly
airing and acting upon such grievances and/or complaints within the
Skyliner/Skyliner Alumni circle would be more appropriate (and ultimately
helpful) than getting on the drum corps newsgroup to broadcast your
personal conflicts with Bob Holton that probably go back decades. What
is the benefit of airing such 'family' matters?
I am surprised that you think bashing the Director publicly will: #1)
change what has happened; #2) make things better; #3) make outsiders think
any better of the Skyliners OR Skyliner alumni; #4) have on iota of
positive effect on the situation. As one writer responded to these type
of 'ugly responses', 'it is convenient for the people to come out of the
woodwork when a corps goes inactive.'
You know as well as I do that it takes a lot more than one person to build
an organization like a competitive Senior Drum Corps, more than one person
to keep such a competitive Drum Corps up and running, and more than one
person to bring such an organization to its knees. Look at other corps
who are struggling, and examine what some of the common, current-day
denominators are. That would certainly tell part of the story. You also
know that over the last years, there have been many other components that
may have helped contribute to what has happened at Skyliners.
You responded to one correspondent, "Geez, I wish the people who do NOT
share this view and have known Bob Holton for a longer period of time then
you and on a much more personal level then you had computers and subscribe
to the net so they could give their opinion as to his character."
I have known Bob Holton for almost 19 years. While I cannot say that Bob
always made the right decisions as Director, or did everything right
(hindsight is always 20/20), or that I even agreed with every decision Bob
ever made, I CAN say that he has dedicated more than 40 years to the
Skyliners (since 1956), and that he has worked hard and sacrificed for the
Skyliners during his Directorship. During his years with the Skyliners,
Bob has held many positions - from corps member, guard captain, Treasurer,
execution drill instructor, guard instructor, drill design, show
coordinator, Assistant Director and Director. I fully believe in his
integrity, dedication, character and loyalty. That does not make Bob
super-human, perfect, or the Savior of the Skyliners, but what it does make
him is a Skyliner in every sense of the word. That anyone can believe that
Bob would knowingly do anything to hurt or bring down the New York
Skyliners is ridiculous. We know the old adage that in team sports, when
things go wrong, it's always the coach's fault, but when the team is
winning, what a great team!
Mike, I am not saying you are not entitled to your opinion. You and I have
shared a few opinions over the years. I just regret that you have chosen
such an inappropriate, public forum to perpetuate your own personal agenda
against Bob Holton.
Doreen Sandor Girardi
New York Skyliners 1980 - 1989, 1995
New York Skyliner Alumni Association Member
BRSOMANIAC <brsom...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199805260254...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> re: the ugly responces to Sky's recent situation:
>
> Having gone through a similar experience, my heart goes out to Bob
Holton. The
> Corps Director and other key people who sacrifice much of their personal
lives
> to get field corps out today are rarely appreciated, and often carry the
blame
> when things go badly. It is convenient for the lowlifes to come out of
the
> woodwork when a corps goes inactive. Unfortunately, our activity has
more than
> its share of lazy and cowardly characters who find it far easier to
complain
> than to help.
>
> It is just these selfish and little-minded attitutes that have chased me
from
> participation in the activity. When all of the Bob Holton's have had
enough
> and walk away, then we'll find out how little these critics have to
offer to
> fill the void.
>
> I don't know how to reach Bob or the Skyliners, but I hope that someone
will
> pass this message on to them. Good luck with getting the corps back out
for
> next season!
>
> Tom MacDonald
> Brsom...@aol.com
> brsomaniac
>
MJPUDSTER
>From: "DOREEN GIRARDI"
>Mike, I am not saying you are not entitled to your opinion. You and I have
shared a few opinions over the years. I just regret that you have chosen such
an inappropriate, public forum to perpetuate your own personal agenda against
Bob Holton.
Doreen, that's the trouble with opinions, they are like assholes, everyone has
them. It's just too bad that some people find the necessity to "talk thru
them".
"Could this planet be some other planet's hell?"
SkyAlumni
On 2 Jun 1998 01:58:08 GMT
"DOREEN GIRARDI" <DSGI...@MSN.COM> wrote:
>I am saddened that you find it necessary to further a personal vendetta
>against Bob Holton in such a public forum.
My Dear Doreen,
I find it a sad state of affairs as well, on the other hand, it isn't a
personal vendetta, it is a statement of fact.
> I question your motives about singling out Bob in
>such a vehement, slanderous manner over the Internet!
Sorry Doreen, but there is no slander here.
>I find it especially
>disappointing since we are fellow Skyliners/Skyliner alumni.
Let's see, if I remember correctly, the last time you were at a Skyliner Alumni
meeting was back in 1995 when seeking information to put in the "Skyliner 50th
Anniversay Book". Before that, I really can't remember when the last time I saw
you at a Skyliner Alumni meeting was, but, if we check the attendance book I'm
sure we can find out when that was. Oh, by the way, you'll notice my name there
for every meeting for at least the past three years. We thank you for your
dues though, and please, come around a little more often then once every 3
years. You just might get a better flavor as to what is happening and who is
saying what about whom and who has the personal vendettas.
> than getting on the drum corps newsgroup to broadcast your
>personal conflicts with Bob Holton that probably go back decades.
Once again Doreen, this is not a personal conflict.
>I have known Bob Holton for almost 19 years. While I cannot say that Bob
>always made the right decisions as Director, or did everything right
>(hindsight is always 20/20), or that I even agreed with every decision Bob
>ever made, I CAN say that he has dedicated more than 40 years to the
>Skyliners (since 1956), and that he has worked hard and sacrificed for the
>Skyliners during his Directorship. During his years with the Skyliners,
>Bob has held many positions - from corps member, guard captain, Treasurer,
>execution drill instructor, guard instructor, drill design, show
>coordinator, Assistant Director and Director. I fully believe in his
>integrity, dedication, character and loyalty. That does not make Bob
>super-human, perfect, or the Savior of the Skyliners, but what it does make
>him is a Skyliner in every sense of the word. That anyone can believe that
>Bob would knowingly do anything to hurt or bring down the New York
>Skyliners is ridiculous. We know the old adage that in team sports, when
>things go wrong, it's always the coach's fault, but when the team is
>winning, what a great team!
>
>
This is all Pollyana pablum. And, as Ron Allard, you have just shown that you
are in agreement with a lot of what I've already stated.
> I just regret that you have chosen
>such an inappropriate, public forum to perpetuate your own personal agenda
>against Bob Holton.
One, more time for the record, this is NOT a personal agenda, there are many
others who share my opinions because they are also aware of the facts, because
they are active in the Skyliner Alumni.
SEE YOU AT THE NEXT MEETING DOREEN.
SkyAlumni
On 06 Jun 1998 23:32:11 GMT
mjpu...@aol.com (MJPUDSTER) wrote:
>Doreen, that's the trouble with opinions, they are like assholes, everyone
>has
>them. It's just too bad that some people find the necessity to "talk thru
>them".
>
>
As I stated to Sean Holton in a response to his E-mail regarding
"opinions"....."Opinions are words, deeds are facts, and DEEDS speak much
louder then words." I have stated facts NOT opinions. But , then again, if
people cannot distinguish between opinons and facts, they will make statements
like, "Opinions are like asshole...yahdah, yahdah, yahdah." A person who makes
a statement like that doesn't have an asshole and therefore is DEFINITELY full
of shit.
By the way, like Santini, (that famous Marine fighter pilot ace) I wipe twice
for those who are concerned about my personal hygiene.
SkyAlumni
> the question I have is why did the membership of Sky stand by and let
>it die, if all it would have taken is to kick him out?
You devil you. What silly question. 8-)
-Because when certain people became vocal, they were labelled "riff-raff" and
were kicked out of the corps.
-Because rather then lose control of whatever power he had, the chairman of
the board chose to do away with elections, which I believe is in violation of
the laws of incorporation, thus making himself supreme power and owner of the
Skyliners, and in doing so violated the legal rights of those who are
life-time members of the Skyliners Senior Drum and Bugle corps of having a
say in what direction the corps can take. A right they had earned while
performing duties and service far above the line of duty, over an extended,
consecutive period of time.
-Because all that is left are a bunch of "yes" men to the chairman of the
board of the corporation known as the Skyliner Senior Drum and Bugle Corps,
one of whom made a statement to the effect that he would rather pay the
remainder of the least on the horns that the Skyliner field corps were to use
this season and put them in the street and roll over them with a steamroller
before letting them get into anyone elses hands. This is the mentality of what
is/was in charge of the present day Skyliner field corps. This same
individual thinks that Bob Holton is the Savior of the Skyliners. Heard he's
considering marching with Hawthorne this season. Wonder if he'll try to
design his own uniform there too.
>Fine, they may see a different person than I have. Doesn't change MY view.
>
>
But then again, you never marched in the Skyliner field corps during the past
17 years.
SkyAlumni
On Sun, 07 Jun 1998 00:32:09 GMT
R...@Dicemen.com (Ron Allard) wrote:
>Doreen doesn't seem to dispute Mike's statements... and apparently, neither
>do
>you, based on this "statement"...
>
>
Sorry to have involved you Ron, it was presumptuous on my part, I apologize.
SkyAlumni
>That anyone can believe that
>Bob would knowingly do anything to hurt or bring down the New York
>Skyliners is ridiculous.
The operative word here is "KNOWINGLY". Due to his incompetence, he doesn't
know/can't admit that he is responsible. In his delusion, in order to protect
his fragile ego, he finds fault with everyone else. One week it's the judges,
"the people in that room over there" as he points in the direction of the
judges room. Next week it's the Alumni, "they never do anything to help us" and
so on, and so on, and so on.
But then, if you hung around the Alumni meeting before and after the actual
meeting itself, you could hear this all first hand.
> We know the old adage that in team sports, when
>things go wrong, it's always the coach's fault, but when the team is
>winning, what a great team!
In the past 17 years, how great a team has he produced. Any winning seasons?
When was there last win? Let's smell the coffee and deal in reality here, God
knows it's been a surreal existence since the beginning of the Holton Era.
DOREEN GIRARDI
Dear Mike:
I found your responses to my posting interesting, certainly thought
provoking.
First of all, whether I am a member of the Alumni Association or not, or an
ACTIVE member of the Alumni Association or not, I am still a Skyliner
Alumna. A ring bearing, diamond wearing Skyliner Alumna.
Secondly, I DO thank you for your invitation to attend more Skyliner Alumni
Association meetings. As people like Louise, Bob, Jerry, Scotty - etc.,
know, I have made whatever meetings I am able to, and always hope that the
future will allow me to attend more Alumni functions. Like many other
members of the Alumni Association, I find it impossible to attend as many
functions as I would like. Indeed, I would enjoy singing in the Chorus
and playing Hy's music with the Alumni corps, since I have probably marched
with many of the current members, and have probably met most of the others
over the years.
It is my understanding that there are many more current Alumni Association
members than generally attend meetings. There is always a nucleus
(including yourself and other stalwart members of the Alumni Association)
that is in attendance - which is often the case with an Alumni Association
- or many other associations - anyway. And the contribution of all the
Alumni Association members - by virtue of the dues collected each year -
allows the Association seed money to undertake the many things that it does
during the course of the year.
As to your saying that if I hung around the Alumni Association meeting
before and after the actual meeting itself, I could "hear this all first
hand" - Mike, I am no stranger to most of the sentiments that have been
voiced. I can assure you that I am privvy to many of the things being
said by the Alumni in general (or individual Alumni) because of personal
contact and conversations with Alumni and Alumni Association members that I
have had over the years, by seeing and talking to Alumni and Alumni
Association members, some of whom I have known since the Winter of 1979,
and some of whom I have met along the way, during my marching years with
Skyliners, at various social activities and competitions, in parking lots
at shows, on the telephone, etc., etc.
Also, through the same circuits and contacts, I AM knowledgeable of the
support that the Alumni Association has given the corps over the years.
Although my butt may not have been in the chair at every Alumni meeting, I
have remained informed.
I first heard the sounds of discontent by individual Skyliner alumni back
in 1985, when we marched a very small drum line. So I have been in the
loop of "hearing this all first hand" on and off, for years (13 years to be
exact).
Also, unless I misunderstood you, you believe your opinions to be
statements of fact. ("I find it a sad state of affairs as well, on the
other hand, it isn't a personal vendetta, it is a statement of fact.")
One's opinions are not automatically fact because one believes one's
opinion to be truth - no matter how strongly one believes one's opinions to
be true. As the old adage goes, "there are usually THREE sides to a
story - your side, my side and the truth!" Point being, that the truth
usually falls someplace in the middle.
I find it ironic that when someone else cites information that is factual
(as Bob's record with the Skyliners, which is on the record) or when
someone has a favorable opinion, you call it Pollyana pablum! I am amused.
First of all, I have no idea who Ron Allard is. Sorry.
Secondly, I haven't worn pigtails or ginham dress in quite some time.
My main objection, Mike, is the PUBLIC manner in which you have sought to
bring Holton down. I thought it inappropriate and not helpful to your
'cause.' Nor will it enhance the public's opinion of the Skyliners OR the
Skyliner Alumni Association.
Sincerely,
Doreen Sandor Girardi
New York Skyliners, 1980 - 1989, 1995
New York Skyliner Alumni Association Member, 1995 to Present
>
SkyAlumni <skya...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199806080210...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> On 2 Jun 1998 01:58:08 GMT
> "DOREEN GIRARDI" <DSGI...@MSN.COM> wrote:
>
> >That anyone can believe that
> >Bob would knowingly do anything to hurt or bring down the New York
> >Skyliners is ridiculous.
>
> The operative word here is "KNOWINGLY". Due to his incompetence, he
doesn't
> know/can't admit that he is responsible. In his delusion, in order to
protect
> his fragile ego, he finds fault with everyone else. One week it's the
judges,
> "the people in that room over there" as he points in the direction of the
> judges room. Next week it's the Alumni, "they never do anything to help
us" and
> so on, and so on, and so on.
>
> But then, if you hung around the Alumni meeting before and after the
actual
> meeting itself, you could hear this all first hand.
>
> > We know the old adage that in team sports, when
> >things go wrong, it's always the coach's fault, but when the team is
> >winning, what a great team!
>
BRSOMANIAC
well stated! Here's to hoping that some positive action and a spirt of
cooperation will soon be forthcoming from all of the parties who truly want to
see Sky back on the field again.
brsomaniac
BRSOMANIAC
P.S. this was in responce to Doreen Giradi's latest, intelligently stated
reponse on this ongoing subject.
brsomaniac
SkyAlumni
Since I've got your goat, you may have the last word. 8-)
DOREEN GIRARDI
If this exercise has brought an end to individuals being publicly bashed
and blamed on the Internet, when Skyliner issues should be addressed
internally, within the New York Skyliners, then good. Never thought this
was about who would have the last word, but who would chose their words
and the choose the vehicle for those words, appropriately and effectively.
P.S. my goat is still tied to the back yard fence!
Doreen
SkyAlumni <skya...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199806121740...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
> Since I've got your goat, you may have the last word. 8-)
>
SkyAlumni
Then come around and address them Doreen or shoot up. As I remember, the only
ideas or thoughts that you ever thought to be good were the ones you had.
P.S.: Same as it ever was. (Talking Heads).
>, when Skyliner issues should be addressed
>internally, within the New York Skyliners,
MJPUDSTER
>Then come around and address them Doreen or shoot up.
Now he's telling people to do drugs.
SkyAlumni
Thank you for catching that error. I just drove back from Boston and I'm a
little tired. Believe me, the LAST thing I would ever want ANYONE (even you) to
do would be to take illegal drugs. But then if you knew my background, you
would know that. Guess that's something Bert Lynch forgot to tell you. By the
way "shit for brains", I just might be in Houston all next week. Anything you
want to say to my face? Probably not. If I told you where I'll be staying, you
probably ring the doorbell and run away.
Cell1jeff
OH COOL, PUBLIC THREATS....THE SEASON REALLY HAS BEGUN!!!!
SkyAlumni
No need to involve yourself Jeff, this is between Mike and myself. It involves
some E-mail that I received recently. Again Jeff, this is something you have no
awareness of.
Glen Paisley
Mike what is up with you? I'm sure you love drum corps, however how
about showing a little bit of class. It's people like you that drag
down the drum corps activity. That's a really strong statement for me
to say since I do not even now you personally, however I have been
following this sky thing for a whileand it's getting a bit old.
Glen Paisley
Chieftains Senior Drum & Bugle Corps
Business Manager
MJPUDSTER
> If I told you where I'll be staying, you
>probably ring the doorbell and run away.
Yup, you're probably right.
MJPUDSTER
>From: skya...@aol.com (SkyAlumni)
>Date: Fri, Jun 19, 1998 01:07 EDT
>Message-id: <199806190507...@ladder03.news.aol.com>
>
>Thank you for catching that error. I just drove back from Boston and I'm a
>little tired. Believe me, the LAST thing I would ever want ANYONE (even you)
>to
>do would be to take illegal drugs. But then if you knew my background, you
>would know that. Guess that's something Bert Lynch forgot to tell you. By the
>way "shit for brains", I just might be in Houston all next week. Anything you
>you
>probably ring the doorbell and run away.
>
>Madonna 1953-64
>Skyliners Nov. 11, 1964-70,75-78,92
>Skyliners Alumni Corps Nov. 1993 til ?
>Archer-Epler Musketeers 97-98
>"It's not what a person accomplishes in life that matters,
> it's what a person overcomes, that's what counts."
Just to set the record straight, Mr. Siglow. My only critisicm of you is that
you have chosen a "Public Forum" to "personally" attack another individual.
What is accomplished by this approach? Does it make you feel better? Do you
think it harms Bob Holton, and therfore it is desirable? Does it let everyone
in the activity know that you are someone to be reckoned with? I really don't
know. I just wonder what purpose is served by your attacks. Does it make the
prospects of the Skyliners coming back any more likely, or does it insure that
no one would dare step in and take the lead. Only time will tell. If you
really mean the following, then what is it that you are either (1) trying to
accomplish, or (2) trying to overcome: "It's not what a person accomplishes in
life that matters, it's what a person overcomes, that's what counts.".
BTW, the "shit for brains" comment, "Nice Touch".
SkyAlumni
Then stop reading the thread if it's getting old for you.
Good luck to you, Doreen and the rest of your corps in defending your title
this year.
SkyAlumni
What it did was set the record straight about Bob Holton's constant claims that
everyone else is to blame for the demise of the Skyliner field corps. Living in
Texas, you would not be privy to all of the lies that have been put forth by
the administration of the Skyliner field corps over the years about how it is
the fault of the Skyliner Alumni, the judges, those damned Caballeros and
anyone else that the field corps is in such bad shape. If YOU were to hear
this type of SLANDER over and over again, I'm sure you would be disgusted as
well.
To address your questions:
>What is accomplished by this approach?
Answered above.
> Does it make you feel better?
I don't think that is an issue here.
> Do you
>think it harms Bob Holton, and therfore it is desirable?
Nothing hurts Bob Holton, no feeling, no brain.
>Does it let everyone
>in the activity know that you are someone to be reckoned with?
<G> Sometimes I get the feeling that a few people here on RAMD may think that,
but I assure you, at THIS point in my life, I am more concerned with much
greater matters of consequence.
> Does it make the
>prospects of the Skyliners coming back any more likely,
It is the concensus of some that the Skyliner field corps will never take the
field again if their present adiminstration remains status quo.
> or does it insure that
>no one would dare step in and take the lead.
Bob Holton has run out of those who are willing to "tilt at windmills" for him.
We see just how delusional he has become over the past 17 years. The only way
the Skyliner field corps will EVER take the field again is if he and his family
are gone COMPLETELY. We are talking about a rebuilding program that will take a
minimum of two years at the VERY least. And there ARE those of us who are
willing to take on this mission as soon as WE know he and his "family" are
gone. But, Bob Holton, in his anal retentive way, will not let that happen
because he will be exposed to the fact that it is HE who is the failure.
>If you
>really mean the following, then what is it that you are either (1) trying to
>accomplish, or (2) trying to overcome: "It's not what a person accomplishes
>in
>life that matters, it's what a person overcomes, that's what counts."
THAT Michael, is a VERY DEEP philosophical question and would take months to
explain. I'm surprised you asked on the one hand, but happily amused on the
other.
>BTW, the "shit for brains" comment, "Nice Touch".
>
>
Thanks. I REALLY lowered myself with THAT one. Sometimes you gotta climb down
off the curb into the gutter and kick somebody in the teeth to get their
attention. Boy, if my mentor at Monclair State, or my faculty advisor at NYU
ever see this, do I have a lot of explaining do.
Glen Paisley
An issue put to rest???
SkyAlumni
Well, if you keep responding, then obviously it is not at rest for you now is
it?
DOREEN GIRARDI
Mike:
Thank you for your good wishes to the Chieftains and to me. We are looking
forward to this season, and hope everyone will enjoy our new show.
Doreen Sandor Girardi
DOREEN GIRARDI
Mike:
Don't know how I missed THIS one, but I am glad someone else already
apparently pointed out your error in telling me to "shoot up." How awful
! I certainly hope our dialogue has not succumbed to such a low level as
that ! ! ( It must have been a VERY long ride home from Boston.)
If I wanted to be cheeky, I could say by the same token YOU should address
the issues in a manner that might be more effective. I don't quite get
the 'talking heads' postscript - but if it says what I think it says, then,
the same could be said about you. But now we're sniping.
I find it interesting that you also say 'As I remember, the only ideas or
thoughts that you ever thought to be good were the ones you had.'
Considering most of the conversations we have had over the years have been
hellos, Skyliner chat, talk about (or at ) a specific show, or the 50th
Anniversary, etc., whatever are you talking about, Mike? How would you
know? Or is this along the same vein of thought that, if someone doesn't
agree with your opinion, they therefore must be wrong or ill-informed or
only seeing their own ideas as valid?
You entirely miss the point that I believe there is great strength - over
50 years of history and brotherhood - within the entire Skyliner
organization - from the 'field corps' and the Alumni Association, and
Alumni who may not belong to the Alumni Association or the corps for
whatever reason (you will no doubt call this Pollyanna Pablum, too), so
that Skyliner issues should be able to be handled WITHIN the Skyliner
family - you won't solve it on the Internet, nor will I. You are
expending a great deal of energy trying to get your point across in a
median that is the least likely to make any real difference to the outcome.
Mike, again, I do welcome your invitation to 'come on down,' and look
forward to seeing everyone again soon.
Doreen Sandor Girardi
SkyAlumni <skya...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199806190354...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> Then come around and address them Doreen or shoot up. As I remember, the
only
> ideas or thoughts that you ever thought to be good were the ones you had.
>
> P.S.: Same as it ever was. (Talking Heads).
>
> >, when Skyliner issues should be addressed
> >internally, within the New York Skyliners,
>
>
TrvrKn
Doreen Had this to say:
"Don't know how I missed THIS one, but I am glad someone else already
apparently pointed out your error in telling me to "shoot up." How awful
! I certainly hope our dialogue has not succumbed to such a low level as
that ! ! ( It must have been a VERY long ride home from Boston.) "
Okay, guys, now you're getting picky....
TrevorKane
DOREEN GIRARDI
TrevorKane:
I think we are well past "now you're getting picky" !
And I did allude to that fact in that posting when I said,
" But now we're sniping"
But thanks for pointing it out in case we were too involved in our
correspondence
to notice what people OUTSIDE might think!
Happy Summer!
Doreen Girardi
TrvrKn <trv...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199806250044...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
almarich
I love Garbarina. The why's and the why not's are not for the world. Rich
Sennett
TrvrKn
TrevorKane:
I wouldn't quite call myself an outsider...
SkyAlumni
<G> Doreen, tsk, tsk, tsk....and you said your goat was tied up to your back
yard fence....<G>
SkyAlumni
On 26 Jun 1998 03:47:35 GMT
trv...@aol.com (TrvrKn) wrote:
>I wouldn't quite call myself an outsider...
in response to:
>But thanks for pointing it out in case we were too involved in our
>correspondence
>to notice what people OUTSIDE might think!"
Trev, try to forgive Doreen this oversight, she hasn't been around the Alumni
for quite some time now and is unaware of who's who. <G>
DOREEN GIRARDI
TRVRKN and Mike:
My posting on the newsgroup to TRVRKN (whom I probably have NOT met - nor
has he probably met me) was not an oversight, but thanks for your note(s) .
I don't think I have ever hurt the feelings of someone I don't think I
have even met before!
My thanks to Trevor was sincere. My point was, that since Trevor has not
been involved in our dialogue, Mike, that it proved a point that I was
trying to make about using the Internet as a posting board - that is,
people outside the conversation / discussion, etc., can get a different
perception about what one is trying to say, or get the wrong impression.
As an 'outsider' - observer, reader, fellow newsgroup browser, previously
uninvolved correspondent - (pick a word you are more comfortable with or
which is more politically correct), etc., to our previous dialogue, he can
stand back from it all and say, now you are sniping. He was right, but
there seems to be quite a bit of sniping going on in the Newsgroup, which
is unfortunate. Your response could also be interpreted as sniping, Mike,
so it is contagious!
I know from postings that Trevor is part of the Sky Alumni . . . great -
but just because I have not met this one individual, does not mean that I
have forgotten who is who at the Skyliner Alumni Association. Surely other
Skyliner Alumni and Alumni Association Members still count for something?
Or do you mean to re-define for all Alumni Corps and Associations the
meaning of the word, "Alumni"?
Hope you had a good weekend (really, I do.) When is your trip to TX, Mike?
Isn't it hot enough in the Northeast?
Doreen
SkyAlumni <skya...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199806270449...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
SKYE9298
Dear Mr. Sigalow
The following message is from my father, Donnie Quinn.
Mike, I just finished reading your recent exchange of opinions
with someone in Texas and with the Chieftains. I just want to
go on record as saying I also have serious misgivings about
having our linen aired publicly in a national forum. Since I wasappointed as
liaison between the Alumni and the field corps,
I feel the time has come to speak out. I also read your past
exchanges with Rob Thatcher, a percussion tech with
the corps. I know Rob, as you do not, and I can confirm he has
dedication to his job with the corps and with the organization.
I just feel that what you are spouting about the field corps and
about Bob Holton are best discussed at an Alumni meeting and
not in this medium. God knows I and many others have our own
feelings about what has happened to our corps. I don't totally
disagree with everything you are saying, and I agree that some
strong measures need to be taken. However, I think the Lodi
Post is the best place to discuss them. I will be more than happy
to sit and kick this around with you at the next Alumni meeting.
Maybe we can intelligently come up with a solution. Maybe you
know some things I don't, and vice versa. But in any event, Mike,
please cool it with telling the world about OUR (SKYLINER)
problems. Best regards, Don.