Gays in the corps
X14flipper
tour, are there many in the all-male corps', does any corps not allow
them, does much gay bashing go on in corps? Please give me some feedback.
Sgt. Stadanko
To begin with: who cares? I don't think it needs to be made an issuse.
Second, to answer your question: they're treated like everyone else. The
homosexual persuasion are treated as well and with as much respect as
anyone else. They are as productive and viable a part of our group as
any member, despite their sexual orientation. I must admit, there is a
little jarring, but its not overtly obvious, and everyone likes and
respects everyone else ultimately.
CHUCKBRASS
What a truly odd question -- people are people! Why not ask how African
Americans, Asian Americans, women, people with nose-rings, people over 65
still in senior corps, are doing and being treated?? If nothing else,
Drum Corps does seem to be a great equalizer.
And if any of your suspicions are true (which you neglect to mention), do
you really expect people to answer them honestly, without recrimination
here (or a law suit for that matter)?
Sorry to jump on this so quickly, but it REALLY irritates me when we find
yet another way to make others feel like outcasts!!
Chuck Naffier (chuckbrass)
Eyezik
>tour, are there many in the all-male corps', does any corps not allow
>them, does much gay bashing go on in corps? Please give me some
feedback.
Other than the "It's alright, but just don't drop the soap" posts, I agree
with the other responses to this thread so far. Obviously many of the gay
and lesbian kids who march corps are happy where they are, otherwise they
wouldn't be marching there. As far as a corps not allowing gay people in,
drum corps has it's roots in military, religious, and other
"Family-Values" type organizations who have a reputation for excluding and
condeming gay people. If you do a little research on some of the older
corps, you'll see that a great deal of them were affiliated with churches
(i.e. The Cadets) and Boy Scouts (i.e. Madison Scouts). Well, many corps
today are independant and free of any ties to religious, political, etc.
organization, and membership is open to anybody as long as he or she falls
within the DCI rules (with the exception of unitary corps like Madison and
Cavaliers. While it's obvious I'm a liberal, and feel that nobody should
be excluded, I uphold the traditions set forth by the unitary corps,
because it's tradition. BUT, that's an entirely different thread) or corps
rules (for those involved with senior corps). Other than the corps
auditions, there are no other tests. And since you can't administer a test
to find out who's gay, there is no test administered for this! Now, I'm
not saying that because everything is open, a guy can go and join Colt's
guard or Phantom's guard. The reasons for this will vary from corps to
corps (you'll get reasons like 'It's tradition' or 'It's purely show
design' and everything under the sun).
As far as being treated well goes, yes, they are treated well. Just as
well as anybody else in the corps. That doesn't mean that things don't
happen, but it's just not questioned anymore. Besides, anybody will tell
you if it weren't for gay people, drum corps would not be as flashy as it
is today. Anybody can find their true selves in corps. Everybody is the
same in corps - everybody is working towards the same goal, and success
doesn't discriminate against color, race, religion, creed, eye color, hair
color, body piercings, shoe size, marital status, your position on the
economic and power strata, and oh, sexual orientation.
Stephen Ford
that you will find the drum corps community as diverse and opionated as
any other cross-section of society. This newsgroup deals with the aspects
of our public performances, not the members' private lives.
clarice haydon howard
In <Pine.HPP.3.91.960226...@starbase.spd.louisville.edu> "Sgt. Stadanko" <bkha...@starbase.spd.louisville.edu> writes:
<snip>
>To begin with: who cares? I don't think it needs to be made an issuse.
>Second, to answer your question: they're treated like everyone else. The
>homosexual persuasion are treated as well and with as much respect as ^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>anyone else. They are as productive and viable a part of our group as
>any member, despite their sexual orientation. I must admit, there is a
^^^^^^^
>little jarring, but its not overtly obvious, and everyone likes and
>respects everyone else ultimately.
It seems like your slight prejudice is also not 'overtly obvious.'
You know, I think I'd be a tad offended if my homosexual boss came up
to me and said, "You know, despite the fact that you're hetro, you're
a productive worker." And the comment "the homosexual persuasion" seems
to almost classify homosexuals into a completely different species.
As for the original posters comments: Gay-bashing within the corps is
probably less prevalent than in society as a whole, since the people
that are bashing will have to live with the bashees for a few months,
and are more subject to discipline than in 'the real world.' However,
you can probably expect gay-bashing from those outside the corps,
especially if you join an all-male corps (witness the accusation that
Madison is a bunch of 'flamers' on another thread).
Best of luck,
di
--
Please add this to your sig file.Start an internet virus.These are the words youcannot use on the Internet: fuck shit cunt tit abortion asshole cock penis twatbitch (anal rape tag) midget tossing plutonium 232 (alt.binaries.hamster.ducttape.watersports)
assasinate rebellion fertilizer explosives anarchy babyoil fornicate POE weather underground subgenius Bill Clinton kidnap Socks suicide machine marijuana LSD
Thank You Big Brother/martial law is now nationwide-we shall cleanse the world
Ace PH
>Besides, anybody will tell you if it weren't for gay people, drum corps
>would not be as flashy as it is today.
Equating "gay" with "flashy" is, IMHO, supporting a dicey stereotype. Why
is a good designer (as the sentence seems to intimate) necessarily gay (or
a member of any other group)?
It is unfortunate that there is still a cadre of old-timers who dislike
DCI because of their opinions of, say, some male guard members. As a
writer in the activity, I have to listen to this tired palaver every year.
However, DCI -- or any of us -- is powerless to change the inborn
prejudices (however innocent) such hidebound people.
I think also that DCI and its members have done a good job in not making
gayness an issue. I'm sure there is some razzing that may go on, (and
gosh, I hope I'm wrong) but the corps seem to keep such behavior in their
own houses.
Yet I do think it is dangerous ground for this activity to describe or
label staff (or players) by their sexual orientation. Imagine a host on
the PBS broadcast saying, "And the Brigadoons feature visuals by Harry
Klimkowski, one of the best straight designers in the business." I know, I
know. It's called "hyperbole." I realize that Eyelink is not trying to say
this in his/her post.
I can also attempt to empathize with gays, for whom the "don't ask, don't
tell" scenario may be intimidating, or constricting in these members'
wishes to affirm and celebrate their own sexuality.
I'm glad we haven't seen two things go public: 1) a player denied
membership in a corps because of his/her sexuality and 2) a case where a
member claims he/she was harrassed or assualted in an intrasexual manner.
It's hard enough to assemble a corps, fund them, get them on the road, and
play to please the judges. I hope that strife over sexual orientation
doesn't add to the burden.
Ace Holleran
Richard M. Stuemke
> On 26 Feb 1996, X14flipper wrote:
>
>> tour, are there many in the all-male corps', does any corps not allow
>> them, does much gay bashing go on in corps? Please give me some feedback.
>
As an observer, I would say that it is certainly tolerated if not
outrightly advertised by some and promoted by others. Certainly a sad
state of affairs.
--
/////////////////
Rich Stuemke
laudate eum in clangore bucinae
EverBody10
Kurt-
MothraL
>outrightly advertised by some and promoted by others. Certainly a sad
>state of affairs.
Let me guess.....this person is going to vote for Pat Buchanan! God, this
last sentence makes me sick! 'Nuff said from me, before I get on a
soapbox!
Martha Leeson
SCV pit 84-87
Matt Elcock
>> On 26 Feb 1996, X14flipper wrote:
>>
>>> How is the homosexual situation in drum corps? Are they treated well on
>>> tour, are there many in the all-male corps', does any corps not allow
>>> them, does much gay bashing go on in corps? Please give me some feedback.
>>
>As an observer, I would say that it is certainly tolerated if not
>outrightly advertised by some and promoted by others. Certainly a sad
>state of affairs.
I'm just going to say that I disagree with that last sentence, and I'm
going to leave it at that.
--
Matt Elcock - Troopers Pit '93, '94, '95, and '96!!!
"Yeah, I love drum corps stuff." - J. Michael Straczynski, Exec. Producer,
_Babylon 5_
Troopers Homepage: http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~pinwiz/troop/troop.htm
Ben Tibbals
>>outrightly advertised by some and promoted by others. Certainly a sad
>>state of affairs.
Boy am I glad it's tolerated! I would have hated to see George Zingali
turned down by 27, Garfield, and Star because he was gay. Some of the
greatest people who have marched and taught in DC were gay, and
thankfully "tolerated" so they could do the fantastic things they did.
Ben Tibbals
Star '93-'94
Richard M. Stuemke
RANDYGAR (rand...@aol.com) writes:
>>
>>I'm just going to say that I disagree with that last sentence, and I'm
>>going to leave it at that.
>
>
> I already sent Richard a personal e-mail regarding his statement, but
> every time I see those words, I get a little angrier. And I wonder if
> that isn't exactly
> what Richard intended when he wrote it. Ideally, such a disagreeable
> thought should not be dignified by an answer. But I'm not your ideal
> person.
> I want to spew venom at this guy, call him names, make him hurt.
> Kind of hard to do in cyberspace, though. And what's the point? HE
> won't learn anything. But I will point out that every time this subject
> comes up on RAMD, then enlightened majority always set the Neanderthals
> back in their caves. Thank God for the rest of you people!!!
> Randy Gardner
Randy,
Thank you for your e-mail and public attack upon my person.
I guess those who preach tolerance are selective in that they only want
tolerance for those which agree with their position. You want me to
accept homosexuals but you are unwilling to accept my opposing belief.
What a double standard!!
Since you see to be a bit unclear as to my reason for posting let me make
it perfectly clear for you, so there will NOT be any future
misunderstandings-
Contrary to many people, both on this newsgroups and in the real live
world, I believe homosexuality to be WRONG! I believe to it to be
un-natural deviate behavior, regardless of how acceptable it is portrayed
to be. You mentioned enlightened majority. I say hardly!!!! Rather,
the confused and deceived majority. The acceptance of homosexuality by
the american public is just a reflection as to the true moral depths this
country has fallen.
Your venomous response to me speaks quite loudly as to the type of person
you are. You are angry that I publicized by personal belief. I am not
angry that you publicized yours. We each are FREE to express ourselves,
whether right or wrong and I certainly have the right to express myself
even if it disagrees with you. If you do not like it, I suggest you
ignore it.
Eyezik
Date: 28 Feb 96 04:15:50 GMT
In Message-ID: <1996022804...@copper.ucs.indiana.edu>,
btib...@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Ben Tibbals) wrrote:
Thank you. This kinda supports the comments I made in regards to some of
the greatest people having been involved with drum corps. I think however
if you look anywhere within a certain arts-based community, sexuality
really has nothing to do with how talented one is. As mentioned earlier,
it was a "dicey stereotype" for me to have mentioned that 'If it weren't
for gay people, this activity wouldn't be as flashy as it is now."
However, it just seems that gay people are more artistic, and that's just
been my past experiences. Of course, I know that there are straight people
who are artistic, too.
As far as this "Certainly a sad state of affairs" comment made previously,
I think everybody is bombing away a little too quickly. Could this comment
be made to support the earlier? I mean, could this person be saying,"Yeah,
it's tolerated, as long as somebody doesn't make a big deal about it." I
know I'm wrong, but I just thought I'd put this out: with that in mind, I
think that he could be saying that it's a "sad state of affairs" for
somebody to have to hide who they are, and nobody should. Why should one
gay member hide his/her sexuality when the couple sitting in front of
him/her is making out in full force? A gay couple making out or flaunting
his fabulousness would be considered "promoting", so I suppose a
heterosexual couple making out is promoting heterosexuality.
Stephen Ford
the best interest of the activity, my worst fears are coming true. As
some of the posts here have confirmed, drum corps is as divergent as any
other segment of society. We've seen some homophobia, and some pretty
hostile reactions.
One writer started to address the inappropriateness of this thread and
ended up indulging in the promotion of tales of misconduct by gay staff
members. We don't need this!! Might I suggest that this discussion be
moved to a social/political/religious newsgroup where a thread on "gays
in the arts" could be addressed. I see that the original author has not
responded to any of the posts. I assume that he/she is sitting back
enjoying the fact that we are scaring the living hell out of many corps
parents and backers.
Please; End this thread.
Jim Roscoe I
I have somewhat of a difficult time believing that such a response would
come from you. To suggest that an individual becomes gay by
"association" is ludicrous. I have two such kids, a boy and a girl who
have both grown up in drumcorps and associated with a significant number
of gays. Both are still in drumcorps (one in the brassline, and one in
summer and winter guard), and as far as I can tell, both are quite
"straight". Now comes the "healthy" part: The LACK of hate, predjudice,
and over-zealous morality on their part. And yes, I know of a fair
number of parents who are aware of the number of gays in drumcorps, yet
still allow, and even applaud their child's membership.
Finally Jay, I believe there is a profound difference between "promoting" a
gay lifestyle, and simply "accepting" its inclusion in the activity. And
I guess I believe that there are more who also understand and accept
(albeit not personally agree), than to whom you may give credit.
Jim Roscoe I
Jim Roscoe I
Sorry Stephen
I still have to disagree with you here. This is censorship, pure and
simple. Drumcorps IS a "sociological" entity unto itself. And as come
out during this thread, this subject has meaningful substance in
drumcorps today. Should we just "sweep" subject matter which is
emotionally charged under the carpet simply because some choose not to
deal with it. You spoke of this newsgroup as that which is suppose to
deal with "performance" issues. Then may I suggest that a very
significant portion of posts on ramd be "thrown-out" since the
number of non-performance issues on ramd is quite high. Personally I
find it quite refreshing to tackle in-depth issues on ramd rather than
simply the light and superficial ones such as "whose uniform is the
suckiest", or the top ten list "why Johnnie can't tie his shoe and play a
horn at the same time". Although I must admit I find these post
entertaining at times.
Jim Roscoe I
R3...@vm1.cc.uakron.edu
If they're gay, then they're gay. I've got better things to worry about, like
improving the show and my performance.
Gadget
Bill Speakman
Where are you planning to build your camps? Who's next, the reactionary and decidedly non biblical
percussionists--now THERE is a target. I recommend that you post your remarks as well to the
"religious zealots" newsgroup, they are looking for a new voice, now that Buchanan is off-line on the
campaign trail. Of course, they only read messages written in ALL CAPS -- Pretty crayola colors and
lots of pictures would help as well.
Dave Nirschl
jrw...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jay R Wise) wrote:
> There is an inherent danger about this topic in drum corps. One that despite
> all the claims of tolerance and the likes can do some SERIOUS damage to the
> entire activity.
So, uh, you're suggesting that we just don't talk about it? What kind of message
do you think this sends to people who are considering marching? To me, this
sounds more silly than the military - "ask, but don't tell parents or
sponsors."
By the way, from what I just read in the NYTimes, don't ask-don't tell has made
things worse for gays in the military. Go figure.
> [cut]
> How would you feel as a parent if your seemingly straight kid went away for a
> summer of drum corps -- a 15 or 16 year old "kid" -- and he comes back quite
> femme and suddenly gay. Was that the kids' choice, or was he a victim of
> association? Was he thrust into a situation where he followed a femme
> crowd, or was it something bound to happen?
How would you feel if your seemingly gay "kid" went away for a summer of
drum corps and came back bisexual? Was he a victim of assiciation? (BTW,
women can be gay, too. And there are gay women in corps. OOPS! I hope
no parents or sponsors are reading!)
There is another point here. Drum corps is not the only place where you can
find young gay people. Try your local high school, for one. Hasn't anyone been
paying attention to what's going on in this country? There are gay/lesbian
"clubs, " if you will, forming in high schools. Check out Utah, for instance.
What does this mean? Parents, you'd better not send your kids to school,
to drum corps camp, or let them roam the internet. They might meet or
speak to a gay person! While you're at it, arrange a marriage for him/her.
I'm sure they'll appreciate it later in life.
> [cut]
> The great thing about drum corps is that it is a great activity for maturing
> young minds. You learn about real life and get experience. But it can
> tragically ruin young lives as well. We've ALL known of situations where
> potentially great people made their futures difficult by making poor choices
> during a drum corps season.
I'm just going to go ahead and assume that you're not talking about gay people
in this paragraph. "Tragically ruin"?
Anyway.
-dave nirschl
Terri Gailey
(Richard M. Stuemke) wrote:
> Contrary to many people, both on this newsgroups and in the real live
> world, I believe homosexuality to be WRONG! I believe to it to be
> un-natural deviate behavior, regardless of how acceptable it is portrayed
> to be. You mentioned enlightened majority. I say hardly!!!! Rather,
> the confused and deceived majority. The acceptance of homosexuality by
> the american public is just a reflection as to the true moral depths this
> country has fallen.
Yet another drum corps thread gone horribly wrong... but I digress.
Let me begin with making my position clear: I understand your belief. I
don't agree with it, but I understand it. And before you make any
assumptions about my "moral depth", please ask me about my "morality" in
private e-mail. I'll be happy to tell you about it.
But let's get one thing out from behind that closet door, shall we?
Homosexuality is an orientation that is as real (i.e. innate) as
heterosexuality. It is not something that happens because of a
"recruitment". Those who have openly accepted their gayness are trying to
live with it in a biased, blatantly hate-filled world.
I have two friends who happen to be gay and have been together for over
five years. They are two of the most moral people I know, especially when
it comes to that "golden rule" thing. They behave just like you, I or any
other upstanding person would - they live to love, prosper and be good to
each other and to do good for others.
Now, let's take a look at whom it is we should truly FEAR and FIGHT
AGAINST when it comes to sexuality and morality...
Rapists....
Child molesters....
Child pornographers...
--
Terri Gailey
Graduate student
University of Texas at Austin, School of Music
Nighthawks 1983-84
Troopers 1985-86, 1988
Troopers staff 1992
(daniel)
>It's one thing if you go to a rehearsal of the ballet and see overtly
>homosexual individuals. They are adults, the decision to be "open" about it is
>their decision. There is, of course, debate as to whether homosexuality
>is acquired or genetic -- that's not the issue, the issue is "open" or
>"flaunted" behavior that depicts homosexuality as glamourous.
>It is yet another thing when a YOUTH group, many of which tout
>average ages of UNDER 18 (mostly for fundraising benefit) has overtly
>homosexual members.
J.-
Knowing that you are an individual that is very concerned with fact, I
wish to provide you with a few I picked up while working in marketing
for a major ballet company, before working for a drum corps.
Average Age of _______ Ballet Company:
Touring Company-
principals=21.5
assistant principals=19
corps dancer=16.5
Company I-
principals= 20
assistant principals= 18.5
corps dancers= 16
Company II-
principals=19.5
assistant principal=17
corps dancers=14.5
The ages here ARE in fact, strikingly similar to that of drum corps.
Funding sources for both groups are quite similar; ticket sales, donor
base, etc., with the exception of more foundation type grants awarded
to ballet.
Since I grew up in a small town in the middle of nowhere, drum corps
gave me an opportunity to see people for who they are, not what they
might be labeled as. It taught me to see value in the individual,
regardless of their personal life, even if I didn't necessarily agree
with their decisions or opinions. This is something that I could not
learn from my community or traditional education. If, through this
experience, I had not learned this appreciation of diversity, I would
have missed out on getting to know many wonderful people. (I would
probably have a incredible headache too, from smashing all the beer
cans on my forehead)
take it easy-
-Daniel Ray
>How would you feel as a parent if your seemingly straight kid went away for a
>summer of drum corps -- a 15 or 16 year old "kid" -- and he comes back quite
>femme and suddenly gay. Was that the kids' choice, or was he a victim of
>association? Was he thrust into a situation where he followed a femme
>crowd, or was it something bound to happen?
>I have high regard for the talent of the legendary George Zingali. But I also
>remember the stories I heard from some Star members about being cornered in the
>equipment truck by George as he made them squirm (be it a joke or not) about
>trying his lifestyle. This is a public relations nightmare waiting to happen.
>Look at the fallout from the Capitolaires and the sexual allegations of former
>director Morgan Larson!
>The situation is the same with drugs, alcohol or teen pregnancy. When corps
>are "entrusted" with the moral teaching, as well as musical teaching, of YOUNG
>people, each corps -- as well as the activity as a whole -- bears a TREMENDOUS
>burden. The last thing I would want to do as a corps director, Board member
>or even instructor, is have to face irate parents and say "well, it's not my
>fault your child decided to become (gay, a druggie, pregnant)." That
>responsibility cannot be denied by a corps.
>The great thing about drum corps is that it is a great activity for maturing
>young minds. You learn about real life and get experience. But it can
>tragically ruin young lives as well. We've ALL known of situations where
>potentially great people made their futures difficult by making poor choices
>during a drum corps season.
>Many drum corps rely on the charity and good will of wealthy foundations and
>charities. These are organizations that are STAUNCHLY conservative. They are
>organizations that wouldn't even think twice about yanking funding for a corps
>that allowed for deviant behaviors of young people (i.e. drugs, teen pregnancy
>and in the conservative foundation mentality, homosexuality).
>I personally know of several homosexual individuals in drum corps, and I have
>the utmost respect for them -- because of what they have done in life,
>regardless of lifestyle. But it is dangerous to promote, or even allow for
>promotion of a homosexual lifestyle in drum corps. The people who pay to watch
>shows and those deep pockets that fund corps most likely don't feel the same!
>J.
Terri Gailey
jrw...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jay R Wise) wrote:
> I have high regard for the talent of the legendary George Zingali. But
I also
> remember the stories I heard from some Star members about being cornered
in the
> equipment truck by George as he made them squirm (be it a joke or not) about
> trying his lifestyle. This is a public relations nightmare waiting to
happen.
> Look at the fallout from the Capitolaires and the sexual allegations of
former
> director Morgan Larson!
First, you are not being very fair in mentioning Mr. Zingali in the
context of unproven allegations in a public forum. Second, I have
witnessed and heard about more sexual harassment from staff members, bus
drivers, truck drivers and fans of the "hetero" persuasion than I have
from any openly homosexual instructor or member of a corps. Third (as a
reference to your later comment about the promotion of the homosexual
"lifestyle" in drum corps), I think there's really nothing to worry about.
And if there is any parent, person or child out there reading this that
thinks kids are going to come home gay after spending their time in a drum
corps, please take the time to read some literature about gay issues and
get the facts as best you can.
Ignorance is not bliss - ignorance is dangerous.
Bill Speakman
>The great thing about drum corps is that it is a great activity for maturing
>young minds. You learn about real life and get experience. But it can
>tragically ruin young lives as well. We've ALL known of situations where
>potentially great people made their futures difficult by making poor choices
>during a drum corps season.
No, the great thing about drum corps should be that it is an educational activity. As an educational institution, drum corsp, like o=
ur public schools and Universities have an obligation to not only tolerate, but promote understanding of diversity.
As I see you are from OSU, I recommend that you read both the OSU and Big Ten statements on diversity. At no time, and in no place =
do we allow our "benefactors" corporate, religious or personal to dictate any policy that is in opposition to the free and open exch=
ange of ideas.
If drum corps is truly an eduicational institution, it has an obligation to act like one.
>Many drum corps rely on the charity and good will of wealthy foundations and
>charities. These are organizations that are STAUNCHLY conservative. They are
>organizations that wouldn't even think twice about yanking funding for a corps
>that allowed for deviant behaviors of young people (i.e. drugs, teen pregnancy
>and in the conservative foundation mentality, homosexuality).
>
>I personally know of several homosexual individuals in drum corps, and I have
>the utmost respect for them -- because of what they have done in life,
>regardless of lifestyle. But it is dangerous to promote, or even allow for
>promotion of a homosexual lifestyle in drum corps. The people who pay to watch
>shows and those deep pockets that fund corps most likely don't feel the same!
>
>J.
Oh, I see, only those who openly accept homosexuality will support activities which include persons of diverse backgrounds. Uh Huh..=
PS: If I were Mrs. Mae Zingali, I would seriously consider a slander suit here. Perhaps she will!
Jay R Wise
Jim Roscoe I <ros...@dsp.com> wrote:
>Jay
>
>I have somewhat of a difficult time believing that such a response would
>come from you. To suggest that an individual becomes gay by
>"association" is ludicrous.
Allow me to clarify... I mean to say that it is possible that one can become
gay trhogh association. Right now many people -- me among them -- are confused
as to what I belive. Is homosexuality genetic and innate, or is it
environmental. I've read both sides here and don't know what to personally
think.
> I have two such kids, a boy and a girl who
>have both grown up in drumcorps and associated with a significant number
>of gays. Both are still in drumcorps (one in the brassline, and one in
>summer and winter guard), and as far as I can tell, both are quite
>"straight". Now comes the "healthy" part: The LACK of hate, predjudice,
>and over-zealous morality on their part. And yes, I know of a fair
>number of parents who are aware of the number of gays in drumcorps, yet
>still allow, and even applaud their child's membership.
>
And that's great. But my warning was for the vocal minority who might not
think that and would be quite willing to bring down a drum corps. I know of
one corps mome that almost brought down a corps in the south a few years ago.
She wanted to take on all of DCI because they allowed beer sales at finals.
>Finally Jay, I believe there is a profound difference between "promoting" a
>gay lifestyle, and simply "accepting" its inclusion in the activity. And
>I guess I believe that there are more who also understand and accept
>(albeit not personally agree), than to whom you may give credit.
>
>Jim Roscoe I
>
I agree and don't deny this. I do want to caution that those who DO NOT wish
to tolerate that lifestyle may be powerful enough to destroy a corps. That is
the magor reason I brought up all the stuff I did.
J.
Jay R Wise
Terri Gailey <tkga...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
>jrw...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jay R Wise) wrote:
>
>
>First, you are not being very fair in mentioning Mr. Zingali in the
>context of unproven allegations in a public forum.
They are indeed allegations, whether or not they are unproven depends on who
you talk to. Those I talked to claimed it happened to them, that's
not unproven and is no different than if I were a reporter for the
NY Times stating that "an unnamed source claims."
For the record, I have no disregard ford George Zingali. And if you recall, my
post menmentinoed "be they a joke or not". There is a greater issue here.
>Second, I have
>witnessed and heard about more sexual harassment from staff members, bus
>drivers, truck drivers and fans of the "hetero" persuasion than I have
>from any openly homosexual instructor or member of a corps.
Which is also true and just as real an issue. Recall that my original post
also included the topics of drugs and teen pregancy, also a concern to any
school or drum corps.
>Third (as a
>reference to your later comment about the promotion of the homosexual
>"lifestyle" in drum corps), I think there's really nothing to worry about.
That depends oupon who you talk to, and I believe as you do, there's nothing to
worry about. BUt just because you or I was not harassed, doesn't mean it is
not happening.
>
>And if there is any parent, person or child out there reading this that
>thinks kids are going to come home gay after spending their time in a drum
>corps, please take the time to read some literature about gay issues and
>get the facts as best you can.
>
I agree. I don't think there is any real danger, but like you say, don't be
ignorant, find things out.
>Ignorance is not bliss - ignorance is dangerous.
>
>--
J.
Slarged 1
mentioned, with GREAT praise, on this newsgroup belong to men and women
who happen to be homosexual. If you were to have denied them of their
lifestyle many of the most incredible moments in drum corps history would
not have occured.
Chad Lowman
'92 Cadets of Bergen County
'93 State Street Review
'94 San Jose Raiders
Quote from protest of Nordstrom in SF "We're here. Were queer. We designed
everything you're wearing. Except acidwash!"
Matt
mark pirkle <mpi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Well, I have no opinion on gays in the corps.
>Simply put: We are here to have fun, dammit, not to get on a
>soapbox and discuss political issues.
>Facing facts, there are a few all-male corps. Both the
>Cavaliers and Madison have couples buses. That is, one guy plus
>one other guy equals two guys on the bus as a couple.
Ummm....No.
Tyco
Joe Bogie
> What if I was 15 years old and never been exposed to this. What if
> that 15 year old's parents weren't so tolerant?
Well, when I was 15 and being driven to a rehearsal, the person who was
driving me offered me fifty dollars to engage in oral sex with him. I
simply said no, and that was the end of it. Jay, I would tend to blame
the actions of those three guys on their adolescence, not the sexual
preference.
J.L. Vala
"Just when you got it made
And all your bills are paid
You stumble and fall into your grave..." V. Furnier
Jay R Wise
Abiquiu8 <abiq...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Four gay guys in our color guard cornered me in the shower once. They
>> were just playing a funny joke on me, since I was the only straight
>> left in the shower when they came in.
>>
>> My shower lasted 2 seconds longer, and I left. They laughed, and
>> hailed me with "don't knock it 'til you try it!" lines.
>
>How long would you have stayed in the shower had three females cornered
>you? The answer is 2 seconds longer.
If they were babes, I'd still be there... :) oh, now I'm a sexist pig, on top
of everything else...
>You were 15 years old once and without previus exposure I assume. You seem
>to have survived it. As for your parents, they probably are more
>open-minded than you in almost everything.
Right. How would you know, jackass?
>Parents, it seems to me, have
>an obligation to love their children. Intelligent parents know that they
>cannot shield their children from the realities of life or their
>children's 'selves' whether it involves career choice, sexuality, values,
>or participation in that scary thing called drum corps. The real issues of
>morality and values that a parent imparts, if there is communication,
>shall remain no matter where the child wanders. To have one's child
>realize the value of 'themselves' is one of the most important things that
>a parent may impart and accept. That is called 'individuality'. Scary
>concept isn't it?
Yes, and that's what we all hope for in parents. But that's not the real
world, is it? Please, enlighten me some more with utopia, where there are no
dead beat dads and moms don't abandon their babies in dumpsters.
>
>Now Mr. Wise, would you like to recite any further sexually explicit
>incidents to prove your point?
No, you'll only get further confused, because you don't get the concept of
ANALOGY! Go back to class, please!
>Perhaps you advocate a lengthy thread concerning sexuality. Which
>orientation has done the greatest 'immorally' indecent drum corps deeds?
>Wouldn't that be a thrilling give and take for the prurient? It could be
>a sexuality duel. Imagine the bragging or complaining of it all. What is
>your point Jay?
My point was made long ago, but since you don't understand what analogy means,
you've decided to play games.
>On any given day, in any given corps - something occurs which could
>veritably bring any corps down with irate parents or a corporate sponsor.
>If you don't know that, you don't know anything about drum corps. There
>are probably old-timers around that could tell you stories that would curl
>your pubes. Imagine, way back then, such 'immorality'!
Hey brainless, go back and read the entire thread and you will find MANY of
such points I have made. Perhaps you ought to read more before you
just jump in and hurl false accusations!
>Where is it that you wish to take this thread Jay? Drum corps is much
>more than dollars. It is about life as has been so often stated. Life is
>more than money, and doing all that one is told is good and corporate. Do
>you understand that?
>
>abiq...@aol.com
I don't think you understand that drum corps could NOT exist because of actions
of those that would BRING DOWN a corps, or the whole activity!
Drum corps is VERY much money, and if you don't understand that, you've never
been seriously involved with a drum corps. Corps are right now on the fringe
of existence, one stupid move by a member, parent-volunteer, staff member or
director and the corps folds... gee, just like the Capitolaires!
Ask Frank S. about his thoughts on what a stupid director's sexual discretion
did to his corps.
I've been making this point all throughout this thread. It's been very much
more than sexual orientation. So do us a favor and go back and re-read all of
that stuff and then flame away at me!
J.
Jay R Wise
In article <4he7h8$7...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Jordsterr <jord...@aol.com> wrote:
>Jay Wise's "stories" about George Zingali are just that. George NEVER
>tried to force himself on anyone. He did occassionally say things to see
>what kind of reaction he could get, sort of a sociology experiment, but he
>never hurt anyone.
Right. Which is why I specificaly stated: "be it joking or not" -- which some
have seemed to disregard.
The issue is not George Zingali and what he did/did not do, or what he did as a
joke or an experiment.
> He truly loved the people he worked with, and to hear
>him slandered by someone who probably didn't know him is offensive.
>Jordi Vilanova
>94-96 Bluegrass Brass
>87 Cadets
>86 Star
Again, Jordi and others do not understand what constitutes slander. While YOU
may believe as you do, the members I talked to in Star were NOT cool with
joking around like that. I will take it as you say, all in jest.
It doesn't change the public relations image problem. There are parents who
would yank their support and/or kids from a corps for an incident such as the
ones we describe. THAT's the point. Not George Zingali.
There was no slander to his name, as you will have to prove in a court of law
that there was intent on doing such. There is and will be none.
J.
clarice haydon howard
<much negativity about homosexuals deleted>
>> Drum corps is VERY much money, and if you don't understand that,
>> you've never been seriously involved with a drum corps. Corps are
>> right now on the fringe of existence, one stupid move by a member,
>> parent-volunteer, staff member or director and the corps folds...
>> gee, just like the Capitolaires!
Which was caused by a *heterosexual* staffer. Gosh, we'd better
get rid of all heterosexuals! They're going to ruin drumcorps!
This discussion is sad. I never realized there were so many
hateful people on here til now. What's next? No more blacks in
corps? Gee, they're all a bunch of crack-smokin' drugheads, can't
let them in. No women either, since they might lead the men into
temptation.
di <truly depressed by this state of affairs>
--
Please add this to your sig file.Start an internet virus.These are the words youcannot use on the Internet: fuck shit cunt tit abortion asshole cock penis twatbitch (anal rape tag) midget tossing plutonium 232 (alt.binaries.hamster.ducttape.watersports)
assasinate rebellion fertilizer explosives anarchy babyoil fornicate POE weather underground subgenius Bill Clinton kidnap Socks suicide machine marijuana LSD
Thank You Big Brother/martial law is now nationwide-we shall cleanse the world
Jordsterr
some things to me that could make others uncomfortable. However, I just
laughed as did others in the corps. The point is, he never actually tried
to harm anyone or to coerce anyone to do anything they didn't want to do.
As for those Star members and the guy from 27 who "were not cool" with
George, perhaps it was an experience they could learn something from. As
a gay man, George usually joked with guys (although he would joke with
girls too to see the reaction) How many guys get the opportunity to feel
the discomfort of being come on to by a guy they're not interested in.
How many of us have taken a woman to dinner and then tried to make into
more after. We're usually on the side of the aggressor, not the
aggressee. This is something that has stuck with me.
Jay R Wise
clarice haydon howard <chho...@mik.uky.edu> wrote:
du (Jay R Wise) writes:
>
>>Allow me to clarify... I mean to say that it is possible that one can become
>>gay trhogh association. Right now many people -- me among them -- are confus
>>as to what I belive. Is homosexuality genetic and innate, or is it
>>environmental. I've read both sides here and don't know what to personally
>>think.
>
>I sincerely doubt if homosexuality is environmental. Of the gay people
>that you know, how many of them had gay parents? I've known quite a
>few in my lifetime, and they've all had heterosexual (and sometimes
>extremely homophobic) parents.
Okay, then how is it that if my parents have heart problems, I am likely to as
well? If my wife's maternal lineage had breast cancer, she runs a much higher
risk.
I know of a married couple who can no longer bear children, as their genetics
won't produce a child that will leave longer than a year (a rare genetic
thing).
So if homosexuality is a "nature" thing, then why is it -- as you say -- there
aren't more gay parents of gay kids? Studies also show that gay parents who
raise kids are NOT likely to see those kids grow up to be gay!
Do you see my confusion! If it's genetic, then where is the family tracing of
it like other genetic character dispositions! Same argument about environment
determining it!
Like much, I don;t think science knows yet.
J.
FStegall
writes:
>Where did you learn that logic from: Adolph Hitler or George Wallace?
Not that this has anything to do with this (or maybe it does - shows how
someone can learn to open his mind), ...
George Wallace very much changed his ways in later life - in fact, the
last time he was elected governor of Alabama, he carried the vast majority
of the black vote.
If Governor "Stand In The Schoolhouse Door" can change his thinking, maybe
there is hope yet.
Floyd
resident of Alabama
ALMOST finished with that history teacher's certificate.....
Jay R Wise
Abiquiu8 <abiq...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>jrw...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jay R Wise) wrote:
>
>> thanks for trying to understand me...
>
>I think I understand you better than you realize.
Your opinion. Let's see...
>> >How long would you have stayed in the shower had three females
>> >cornered you? The answer is 2 seconds longer.
>>
>> If they were babes, I'd still be there... :) oh, now I'm a sexist
>> pig, on top of everything else...
>
>No, I would call you promiscuous. You would prefer to be called a sexist
>pig. Better to be called anything other than a 'fag' isn't it?
Humor, don't get it? And no, have you ever seen me call anyone a "fag"
on this thread? Have I at anytime referred to anyone who is homosexual
as being anything other than "gay" or "homosexual"?? Right. I didn't and
don't. Have I at anytime belittled anyone who is gay? Again, no.
Like Rich S. has said (and okay, go ahead and assume more since I
am referencing him), there is a big difference between a person
not liking a behaviour and not liking a person.
I don't want to be gay, I sure don't want my child to be gay. I will do
what every other parent will do in raising a child. If she ends up
being homosexual, then so be it. I'll still love her and embrace her
and her homosexual friends. Will I be disappointed, yes. That's
just my feeling on the behavioural aspect. It does NOT mean that
I disrespect or hold anyone of a differing lifestyle in contempt.
But you've gone ahead and cast judgement for me, without knowing me, haven't
you! And to beat you to the punch, you bet I jumped the gun and cast
judgement on you! Sorry!
>I am not advocating promiscuity on the part of anyone. I do advocate that
>individuals have the right to be themselves without harming others.
I agree!
>Because someone is gay does not make them immoral or unacceptable. A
>person should not be expected to be anything more or less than any other
>human being. Sexuality should not be an issue to anyone other than the
>sexual individual (hetero, bi or homo)...(I think that about includes
>everyone but an unfortunate few.)
And where can you show that I do not agree with what you have said? In every
thread, and maybe I didn't say it well, I feel the same!
>> Right. How would you know, jackass?
>
>Getting kind of defensive are you Jay?
Wouldn't you be when you are being called things that you are not!
Unless, of course, you have decided that I *am* all those things!
Oh well, so be it!
>> Yes, and that's what we all hope for in parents. But that's not the
>> real world, is it? Please, enlighten me some more with utopia, where
>> there are no dead beat dads and moms don't abandon their babies in
>> dumpsters.
>
>I think you're changing the subject. I'll forgive you. I probably was in
>family utopia.
No, you changed it, I responded! But thanks for being forgiving!
>I don't want to go back to class because you're the teacher. Analogy?
>Please observe the following...
>
>> Another story I was told was that a gay member of a coed color guard
>> was late for FINALS night retreat. He came back out of breath and
>> red-faced. The rest of the guard teased him about getting some, to
>> which he turned redder and hid his face since they hit on the truth.
>
>You call the above analogy? I call it fairly explicit. That is why I
>asked you where you were trying to take this thread. Do you want all gays
>to hide their faces because they are gay? Don't ask! Don't tell! Hide
>your face!
ANALOGY: a likeness in one or more ways between things otherwise unlike. An
inference that if two or more things agree in some respects they will probably
agree in others.
Is it explicit, yeah it is. The point of it, which you decided to either
ignore, or just delete for fun, was that of public sentiment from corporate
sponsors. How many would understand this, yes explicit, example -- and any
other example of sexual promiscuity?
By definition, it is an analogy.
>> My point was made long ago, but since you don't understand what
>> analogy means, you've decided to play games.
>
>You use what you claim is analogy to attempt to cover what I perceive to
>be your prejudice.
I guess I cannot change your opinion of my perceived prejudice. If you knew
the friends I have that are gay, I doubt they would call me that. But you
would have to ask them. I can, provide you privately with some names and
numbers if you would like to call them. If I am intolerant of them, I sure
would like to know that so I can change my behavior.
>> Hey brainless, go back and read the entire thread and you will find
>> MANY of such points I have made. Perhaps you ought to read more
>> before you just jump in and hurl false accusations!
>
>I read the entire thread more than once before I ever responded to your
>message. It was apparent early on, in your first response, where you were
>headed.
So where am I headed? You allude, but you do not tell! Are you afraid I am
going to start throwing in more explicit examples? I'm not, if you're curious.
>> I don't think you understand that drum corps could NOT exist because
>> of actions of those that would BRING DOWN a corps, or the whole
>> activity!
>
>The fit survive Jay. Drum corps has been around for a long time. It will
>undergo change as it is presently doing. But it will survive in one way or
>another. The world is changing. Don't jump off.
I won't. And it's great that things are changing. And as time passes, corps
will become more secure on this issue. But there are -- and choose not to
believe me if you don't -- people out there who would not think twice
about taking their beliefs (yes, they are intolerant and I don't agree with
them) and forcing them on a corps to the extent that it might fold.
>Stupid moves are made all the time. Lighten up! There are stupid moves
>that have yet to be defined. You could spend your life worrying about ways
>to keep one step ahead of someone else's next stupid move. You cannot
>package all the people involved in drum corps into safety wrap. If VERY
>much money requires that individuals involved in drum corps *not* make a
>stupid move, drum corps is dead on arrival. Are you certain that you
>experienced the REAL world of drum corps? You live in drum corps utopia.
I'll paraphrase Bill Cook from a few years ago: Drum corps is one bad
liability suit away from folding.
If you wish to chat further privately on e-mail, I'll gladly share my drum
corps background if you'll do the same. If I am in utopia, I certainly don't
mind learning from someone who's been around the block. I love soaking up
other people's knowledge. (And for the record, you at least know my name, as
we do not know yours)
>As for the Capitolaires...that was far beyond a stupid move. I think the
>Capitolaires were but one step this side of dead before the final
>braindead deed did them in.
>
>abiq...@aol.com
I don't know, ask Frank S. he might agree, he might say something different.
But if certainly fit Bill Cook's analogy, didn't it?
J.
R3...@vm1.cc.uakron.edu
>> Leviticus 20:13 which specifically prescribes execution for
> > homosexuals. How do you suggest we honor their beliefs so
> > they don't "destroy a corps"?
>
>My sense is that you've never read Leviticus 20:13. You should.
My sense is that a lot of people need to sit back and read the Bible
thoroughly. Notice how many other behaviors are condemned? Read the section
about adultury. Some divorces would be considered major sins because of the
guidelines put forth. Think of the drastic drop in population if we were
to carry out the punishments specified for ALL the sins listed.
Gadget
FStegall
I'm still here...) writes:
>> including
>> Leviticus 20:13 which specifically prescribes execution for
> > homosexuals. How do you suggest we honor their beliefs so
> > they don't "destroy a corps"?
When I first read this, I looked it up, and read the passage - and guess
what?? Gays were far from the only group discussed - IF YOU READ THE
ENTIRE CHAPTER. I very much despise folks who use bible verse to justify
a position, because it is so easy to take any one verse out of context and
make a case on it.
Leviticus 20 prescribes a number of penalties for a number of infractions,
including adultery - but for some reason, you don't see folks standing
outside divorce court with signs quoting that scripture, chanting about
death to adulterers. It's just not convenient to condemn this sort of
thing anymore - that went out with Hester Prynne.
I will be the first to admit that I'm not as familiar with biblical theory
as I should be (I currently consider myself agnostic, and am STILL trying
to figure out what I really believe), but I seem to recall being taught
somewhere (brought up Southern Baptist) that when Christ died on the
cross, He superseded all of the old testament laws - pretty much bringing
things down to "love thy neighbor as thyself" and "believe on the Lord
Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". My understanding is that the OLD
testament was an OLD law for an OLD age, and it all changed with the
death, burial, and resurrection.
Again, I state very plainly, I BELIEVE THIS IS TRUE, BUT AM NOT CERTAIN.
If I am mistaken, please just give me the correct information - don't call
me a godless pagan or anything like that.
Jeff Marchant
In article <4hfot0$9...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Jay R Wise wrote:
>I agree! And I think I'll shut up on this thread now because I can't seem
> to
>logically make my point.
>
>- I am not railing against homosexuality
>- I am not advocating nor blaming homosexuality
>- I am trying to show how there are forces involved in corps who wouldn't
> even think twice about shutting down a corps because of this issue.
>
>I regret even getting into this, because nobody wants to keep this at
>a academic standpoint.
>
Ha ha, well yes. You did put your foot in one of the biggest cans of worms
around. How about following it up with a discussion about abortion, or gun
control. :)
Hang in there, people.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ |\|]{
@ @ @@/
@ "Bart, don't use the Touch of Death on your sister." \/]\lI IlI]I||
@ @]l |]/{\
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@///]/]}} /
March...@aol.com
March...@gnn.com
Donald Chinn
As usual, I am jumping in late into this discussion. But since it
has turned into a discussion about the nature of education (which is
somewhat related to the original topic about gays in drum corps),
I thought I'd jump in.
At the high school level and below, I think that teachers have little
freedom to choose what they can teach. My (admittedly shaky)
understanding of the way it works is that a teacher must submit a
teaching plan for a term and it must be approved by higher-ups.
These plans have to fall within certain guidelines, and these guidelines
are very much subject to the transitory politics and/or sentiments of
the School Board and the community. Then the teacher must execute that
plan.
At the university level, however, professors and instructors have a
great deal of freedom as to what they can teach. The faculty of
your favorite department gets to decide what its curriculum is (i.e.,
what it takes to graduate, what requirements, etc.). There are
university-wide requirements, of course (for example, reading and
composition requirements, breadth requirements, etc.), but the
recent trend, I think, both at the university level and the department
level is to try to reduce the number of requirements for students.
This freedom is consistent with the notion of academic freedom for
the professors and is also consistent with the idea that college students
should find their own path (guided by professors, of course). So,
in any particular class, there might be a body of knowledge that is
supposed to be covered (according to what the faculty of the department
has decided that course should cover), but there is quite a bit of
freedom professors have. The contents of the same course might be
quite different from semester to semester. Part of the reason for this
is that the body of knowledge changes (especially in the sciences) and
so certain things are less important as time goes on. Another reason
is that different professors emphasize certain things differently because
they feel one part of the course is more important than another -- there
is no "one right way" to teach a course at the university level.
Yes, there will be pressure from above (deans, vice presidents, Board
of Trustees, Regents, etc.) to teach certain things, but most of the
"power" resides with the professors. I think in the sciences, this
"power" is very strong, since in the sciences, it is the professors
who know what best to teach and how to teach it.
In the arts and social sciences, however, higher-ups may have a
somewhat greater influence. A good example is the ESR (Ethnic
Studies Requirement). Should there be a university-wide requirement
that students take at least one Ethnic Studies course (e.g.,
Asian-American studies, Afro-American studies, etc.) ? Proponents say
that it is the University's obligation to teach diversity and tolerace.
Opponents say that having such a requirement will not achieve this end
(the idea being that you can lead a horse to water ...). This, of
course, is an oversimplification of the issue, but it highlights the
problem.
In short, I think there is a big difference between the nature of
education at the secondary level and at the university level.
A drum corps has the advantage that it is like the university, free
to pursue whatever objectives it chooses to pursue, be it education,
excellence, entertainment, youth activity, etc. And like universities,
each corps can pursue different combinations of these objectives -- not
all corps have to be (nor SHOULD they be) the same.
On the other hand, drum corps, like high schools, seem to be quite
subject to the sentiments of the community it serves, since they are
typically less financially stable than your typical university. (This
is not to say that unversities don't worry about finances, of course.)
The good drum corps it seems to me, like the good universities, are
ones that have a clear mission, one that people are willing to support,
and who execute that mission while still allowing the freedom to its
staff to execute that mission in the best way they see fit. In fact,
this sounds like what happens in any good organization.
-- Donald
----
In article <4h8ktk$c...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jrw...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jay R Wise) writes:
>No.
>
>
>Bill Speakman <ww...@cde.psu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>No, the great thing about drum corps should be that it is an educational activ
>ity. As an educational institution, drum corsp, like o=
>>ur public schools and Universities have an obligation to not only tolerate, bu
>t promote understanding of diversity.
>
>Schools have a legal obligation to their School Board. School Boards are
>comprised of community individuals and are ELECTED (at least in Ohio) by the
>community. Curriculum for my school district is approved by the school board.
>If I write into my curriculum that our students will do a unit on homosexuality
>>and tolerance in America, it would have to be approved BY THE BOARD. If the
>school board felt it was NOT in the best interest of the community, it could
>NEGATE that part of the curriculum.
>
>You and I may not approve of this, but we are LEGALLY bound to teach the
>approved curriculum to students. As my building principal is FOND of reminding
>me, I can be held legally liable should I NOT cover all the material that is in
>our curriculum. I.e., I can be fired if I don't teach what's been approved.
>That also means I can be fired for teaching what has NOT been approved.
>
>If our school board chooses to expell homosexuals, it will be such until a
>court order (rightfully) reverses that decision.
>
>We, as educators, may think we are loftier, but public schools and Universities
>are at the whim of their Boards or Trustees. You will do as they say or you
>will not teach... it's that simple.
>
>>As I see you are from OSU, I recommend that you read both the OSU and Big Ten
>> statements on diversity. At no time, and in no place =
>>do we allow our "benefactors" corporate, religious or personal to dictate any
>policy that is in opposition to the free and open exch=
>>ange of ideas.
>>
>
>Not true again. (And I am only connected through OSU, I am not a student).
>Alumni bucks speack loudly! How many colleges are losing programs through
>cutbacks? At the same time how many of their athletic progams are being added
>to? Look at PSU's new arena! In fact, OSU's new arena is being built by
>corporate money, while at the same time programs are being dropped. It sure
>sounds to me as though corporate benefactors are making policy. As for
>religious policy, I suppose that at Notre Dame, or other strongly religious
>schools, that if someone is homosexual they will be openly accepted? I think
>not! Few religions are tolerant of homosexuality! they will DEFINITELY
>control university policy!
>
>>If drum corps is truly an eduicational institution, it has an obligation to ac
>t like one.
>
>Actually, it can do what it damn well pleases, since it is being funded
>privately. Their obligation is to their Board, which can do whatever
>the hell it pleases. BTW_ who in drum corps would teach diversity?
>Seems to me time is spent beating asses into the field getting the show
>right!
>
>>
>>Oh, I see, only those who openly accept homosexuality will support activities
>which include persons of diverse backgrounds. Uh Huh..=
>
>You think Pat Buchanan and the groundswell of support he garnishes from the far
>right (many of whom are quite wealthy) will support gays? He's already said
>"no way" to that! Do you think if Donald Trump does not tolerate gays that
>he will go ahead and give millions to a group that promotes it? Your argument
>has no logic!
Jim Andrews
>
>So if homosexuality is a "nature" thing, then why is it -- as you say -- there
>aren't more gay parents of gay kids? Studies also show that gay parents who
>raise kids are NOT likely to see those kids grow up to be gay!
>
Let's see, why aren't there more gay parents of gay kids? Hmmm . . .
HEY! Why aren't there more gay parents of straight kids? We're
on to something here! What's the matter with those gay parents?
How come they aren't having more kids? What gives here?
I'm gonna get to the bottom of this . . .
Jim Andrews
Cavalier French Horn 82, 84
mark pirkle
AMEN!
AMEN!
AMEN!
AMEN!
AMEN!
Oh, thank God somebody said that.
I've been being way too argumentative to try and get that point
across.
Bless you. Bless you forever.
Oh, jeez....
Spit
mark pirkle
>>> including
>>> Leviticus 20:13 which specifically prescribes execution for
>> > homosexuals. How do you suggest we honor their beliefs so
>> > they don't "destroy a corps"?
>>
>
>My sense is that a lot of people need to sit back and read the Bible
>thoroughly. Notice how many other behaviors are condemned? Read the section
>about adultury. Some divorces would be considered major sins because of the
>guidelines put forth. Think of the drastic drop in population if we were
>to carry out the punishments specified for ALL the sins listed.
>
>Gadget
Everybody should go see the movie "Seven." It describes what
wuld happen to each person who commits a deadly sin in detail
through the eyes of a demented killer.
Everyday, on every street corner, we see a deadly sin. The
instructed punishment according to the Bible is death.
As you said, imagine the drop in population.
Hmmmmmmmmm............
Spit
Jo Ann Champion
that things that go against nature are immoral??? Now, now..that's
unjustified....Catholic priests pracitce celibacy, and that goes
against nature...is that immoral??? I wonder? How about married
heterosexual couples that cannot have children? That isn't the
natural tradition...it breaks away from the heterosexual norm...are
those people imoral? I wonder...perhaps you need to re-analize your
argument. I have no problem with homosexuals...they keep the
population from exploding, something that those of us heterosexuals
cannot seem to do on our own...They add diversity to our culture,
and they have as much to add as any other member of our society. To
judge them as quickly as you seem to is wrong.
Yes, I am a heterosexual female, and I do have homosexual friends...
whereas their sexual preference may not be the right thing for me,
it is also none of my business. They don't make an issue about us
being heterosexual, and I suggest we do likewise...CAN'T WE ALL JUST
GET ALONG???
geez...
Jo Ann Champion
Univeristy of Texas at Austin School of Music
Texas Longhorn Band Piccolo Line
jacha...@mail.utexas.edu
http://www.donet.com/~wamp/friends/joann/JoAnn.html
}: 8 (HOOK 'EM, HORNS!!!)
"You can't help respecting anybody who can spell Tuesday, even if
they can't spell it right."
-A.A. Milne
mark pirkle
If they can jam, let em do what they will!!!!
Spit
olde...@caa.mrs.umn.edu
On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, Ryan wrote:
> I just wanted to say that, regardless of who, what, where, when, how,
> why, etc etc, someones sexuality is, if they're gonna help keep the
> activity alive, more power to them. Who cares what they do off the
> field, as long as they jam on the field. ^^^ I know thats an open invite
> for a lot of criticism.
>
> Ryan
> Magic `94
Are you kidding? That's the most sensible thing I've read in this entire
thread. If there's some sop wailing away and I'm loving it, do you think
I really care what he or she does after the show? I don't care if the
whole corps is homosexual, as long as they rock.
Michael Oldemeyer
Phantom Regiment 94,6
Baritone
Stephen Ford
Publisher's Clearing House. If you're lucky, Ed McMahon (former member of
many corps per another thread) might come to your house with a big check.
EverBody10
Would this be the happy glossy new versions? Or the don't shave a healthy
beard, don't eat oysters or wear mixed fibered clothing versions?
Kurt-
Richard M. Stuemke
> On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, Ryan wrote:
>
> I just wanted to say that, regardless of who, what, where, when, how,
> why, etc etc, someones sexuality is, if they're gonna help keep the
> activity alive, more power to them. Who cares what they do off the
> field, as long as they jam on the field. ^^^ I know thats an open invite
> for a lot of criticism.
>
> Ryan
> Magic `94
>
You know, on the surface that sounds quite tolerant. However, I would ask
you and others if you would have the same tolerance for a great sop
soloist who was a white supremicist or a child molestor or a Nazi or a
radical conservative christian or an anti-abortionist or a convicted
murderer? I ask because it seems that many are willing to be tolerant of
certain lifestyles but not others.
If I claimed to be a conservative christian anti-abortionist, would you
who have defended the homosexual lifestyle, come to my defense if someone
began to criticize my life style as being immoral??? I WONDER???!
--
/////////////////
Rich Stuemke
laudate eum in clangore bucinae
Joe Bogie
on some Christian religious principal; I think I read somewhere that only
God can be the ultimate judge, so what gives a person like Pat Buchanan to
judge gays? I mean, unless he's got a direct fax line to Heaven, how can
he or any other person who agrees with him really know?
This is what I do when I'm waiting for my coffee on a Saturday morning :
)
Jay R Wise
As a teacher I preface these comments with my experience in my school. It
encompasses 16 other districts (it's a vocational school) over urban, suburban
and very rural areas. My school reads like the trailer to the movie "Higher
Learning." We have whites, blacks, hispanics, fewer-but-some orientals, we
have rednecks, white supremacists, black racists, rich snobs, poor white trash,
jocks, band geeks and gays/lesbians (and I'm sure I missed other types of
labels and stereotypes). I have students who can watch a drug deal go down on
the street corner any day of the week. In the same class I have students who
drive Stealth's or Miata's to school (although decidedly few). At the same
time, I have students who think the U.S. flag is a blue, star-filled "X" on a
sea of red, and have a chevy in the backyard that's up on blocks.
This has nothing to do with RAMD or drum corps, but for the many high school
and college readers who are in education, I share the following so that you are
prepared for a taste of the real world (which I wasn't when I left the cozy
confines of college life).
Kent Shook <sh...@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
>
>Look at it this way:
>* White supremacists HATE people from other races for no apparent reason.
Some of my students are this. Some hate others, some merely love their
heritage to death. One student told me that if he found out he had
blacks in his family tree he'd kill himself. They do have a reason for
their "supremacy" -- it's extremely short-sighted (IMO), but they have a
substantiated reason! I asked a student that if a black or gay scientist had
the cure for AIDS or a Cancer, would he let this scientist come into the U.S.
He said no!
>* Child molestors HURT children and emotionally scar them for life.
I also have students who are fundamental zealots of religion. It was
well documented that David Koresh, leader of the Branch Davidians and
the Waco incident with the ATF/FBI, was "molesting" young girls in the
compound. He would "claim" 11-14 year old girls and "marry" them (he had
dozens of wives) in the name of his religion and then sodomize them. There
is no doubt in mainstream minds that this is child molestation. Yet I had a
student who disagreed because Koresh spoke directly from the Bible and you
could find in the Bible the interpretion to back him up.
A postscript to this... hundreds of years ago women were frequently married at
age 14 or so. When a girl began to menstrate, she was "mature." Biologically,
a 14 year old is ready, in modern society she is not ready. Times change,
but in some religious circles the interpretation does not.
>* Nazis, like white supremacists, HATE groups of people because of their
>looks or religious affiliations.
Again, historically Nazis were not necessarily hate groups. The Nazi movement
was a nationalist movement. It really is no different than in the state of
California where people voted to strip immigrants of almost all rights (granted
they were illegals) and in many other states where death penalty appeals have
been lopped in half in the interest of "justice." It casts a doubt on the "land
of the free" doesn't it?
>Gay people do NOT HATE or HURT ANYONE. (Well, if they do, it's not because
>they're gay!)
And this is very true! But I have taught white supremacists and Nazis, as well
as blacks who were racist and poor "talk show" mentality students that feel
the world owes them something... few of these people ever hurt people. They
are filled with anger (but not necessarily hate) and bitterness. And at
ages 17, 18 and 19, try as I may to present alternative views, they simply
are so far along they are set in their ways. How should I handle them in
my classroom for 18 or 36 weeks? It definitely presents a challenge!
>* Radical conservative christian: That's a belief, which everyone is
>entitled to having.
Which, as much as it bothers me, is why I have to keep a poker face
and a (hopefully) unbiased teaching style when confronting racist, homophobic,
and other extremist viewed students.
>* Anti-abortionist: same thing. While I may not be one or agree with their
>beliefs, I do not hold it against them either! They have a good reason for
>their beliefs, and there's nothing wrong with believing in something. Is
>there?
Which is why, as an educator, I have no right to cut down a racist, homophobic,
extremist or other (in my views) bigot-laden student, just as I have no
right to cut down someone with conservative views if I am not, or religious
beliefs if I am not of their faith. Isn't teaching a challenge?!
Just some thoughts from someone who's been in the trenches of public schools
for a while.
J.
apologies to those expecting a drum corps reference in this!
Brad Tilley
by the way you shouldn't care about---I thought Drum Corps was about the
marching arts, and not who fucks who) because they choose to love
someone.....it doesn't matter of what sex they are. The world is full of
sick, horrible people like yourself, Mr. Steumke, and I think it's great if
people choose to love rather than hate.
Brad Tilley
Abiquiu8
> You know, on the surface that sounds quite tolerant. However, I would
> ask you and others if you would have the same tolerance for a great
> sop soloist who was a white supremicist or a child molestor or a Nazi
> or a radical conservative christian or an anti-abortionist or a
> convicted murderer? I ask because it seems that many are willing to
> be tolerant of certain lifestyles but not others.
>
> If I claimed to be a conservative christian anti-abortionist, would
> you who have defended the homosexual lifestyle, come to my defense if
> someone began to criticize my life style as being immoral??? I
> WONDER???! --
> /////////////////
>
> Rich Stuemke
> laudate eum in clangore bucinae
>
>
It's a rhetorical question. The answer is in front of your nose. NO ONE
has the right to dehumanize or make war upon another who is doing no harm
to others.
It is not all that complex. A loving individual might say:
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
It is easy to remember. Thousands of pages of scripture could be condensed
down to these few words. A man once tried to teach us these words. And
that same man lived by these words. One need not be a biblical or
linguistic scholar to understand them.
When people do *not* do harm to others - we should leave them alone. Do
not be afraid of others because they do not share your beliefs or views.
Do not impose your beliefs upon others as you would not have others impose
their beliefs upon you. "What goes around, comes around."
Look at the world of possibilities that drum corps has provided for so
many. There is often bickering and challenging going on. But beyond the
dissent is, I think, a genuine respect for all by most. This, because we
all realize that drum corps is more important than our individual
differences. It is a commonality we all share.
Plato once said:
"How little, from the resources unrenewable by Man, cost the
things of greatest value--wild beauty; peace, health and love,
music and all testaments of spirit!
How simple our basic needs--a little food, sun, air; water,
shelter, warmth and sleep!
How lightly might this earth bear Man forever!"
"Particularly with drum corps thrown in!" :-)
Drum corps is a place where the extraordinary come together to do
extraordinary things. I can't think of any place or activity where the
work ethic is higher. In drum corps individuals work together to achieve
what many times is next to impossible.
Too many today live in a personal world of hate and anger. Hate is many
times based upon fear. What harm might a bit more love do - be it between
man and woman, man and man, or woman and woman... It does not come
natural to us to HATE. We are taught to hate.
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of
God."
mark pirkle
My God, that is the most outstanding piece of literature I have
read on this newsgroup since I've been reading it. And that's
been for a year now.
I am being very serious! What you said was what I would have
said.
The only reason I didn't was because of Internet policing.
Bravo, bravo, and bravo again.
Spit
clarice haydon howard
>OK. I do understand how people could be uncomfortable because of George.
>But I still believe that he was just trying to get a reaction. The reason
>I believe this is that one day he propositioned me one time too many, and
>I called his bluff. He ran away screaming. He was an hysterical man who,
>I believe was trying to learn about people.
It's good that you were able to handle this situation, but surely you
can understand that there are some people that may have been more disturbed
than you. This is SEXUAL HARASSMENT, regardless of whether it was said in
a 'joking' manner or not (in fact, most large companies have it in their
policy manual that even if some makes an inappropriate 'joke', it is
considered sexual harassment). Since (according to this newsgroup) George
did this quite a bit, it's kind of surprising that nobody filed a lawsuit
against him. Then again, look at how long it took for Packwood to be
exposed as the slime he is. Yes, I still respect Zingali as a designer,
but after reading some of his actions on this board, I find it harder and
harder to respect the man as a person.
>Jordi Vilanova
>94-96 Bluegrass Brass
>87 Cadets
>86 Star
Graham Davis
News Admin
jrw...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu says...
>
>As a teacher I preface these comments with my experience in my school. It
>encompasses 16 other districts (it's a vocational school) over urban,
suburban
>and very rural areas. My school reads like the trailer to the movie
"Higher
>Learning."
>
>>* Child molestors HURT children and emotionally scar them for life.
>
>I also have students who are fundamental zealots of religion. It was
>well documented that David Koresh, leader of the Branch Davidians and
>the Waco incident with the ATF/FBI, was "molesting" young girls in the
>compound. He would "claim" 11-14 year old girls and "marry" them (he had
>dozens of wives) in the name of his religion and then sodomize them.
You shouldn't have busted on Koresh! Everyone a Waco was a victim of the
federal government's desire to crush all Christians. There was also a corps
alumn who died in the fire!
mark pirkle
>
>You shouldn't have busted on Koresh! Everyone a Waco was a victim of the
>federal government's desire to crush all Christians. There was also a corps
>alumn who died in the fire!
>
I really wish you knew what you were talking about.
David Koresh KILLED people. It is a sin against God to KILL.
Have you read the Bible? It's in there pal.
Koresh, after preaching his view of the gospel, did indeed take
small children and force them to have sex.
By calling David Koresh a martyr, that's like saying Hitler had
good intentions.
How dare you.
Kris Langley
Joe Bogie
>You shouldn't have busted on Koresh! Everyone a Waco was a victim of the
>federal government's desire to crush all Christians. There was also a
corps
>alumn who died in the fire!
Who is this clown? If anything, Christians have had a _much_ easier time
of it in this country that other religions. The fact that a corps alum
was killed in the fire may be sad, and you would be well within your
rights to question what happened at Waco, But "the federal government's
desire to crush all Christians"???
Wow.....
Richard M. Stuemke
> ne...@iquest.net (News Admin) wrote:
>
>>
>>You shouldn't have busted on Koresh! Everyone a Waco was a victim of the
>>federal government's desire to crush all Christians. There was also a corps
>>alumn who died in the fire!
>>
>
> David Koresh KILLED people. It is a sin against God to KILL.
> Have you read the Bible? It's in there pal.
> Koresh, after preaching his view of the gospel, did indeed take
> small children and force them to have sex.
> By calling David Koresh a martyr, that's like saying Hitler had
> good intentions.
> How dare you.
>
> Kris Langley
>
David Koresh was a dangerous cult leader that had victimized and mislead
his followers and was certainly no example of christianity that should be
followed. Unfortunately, many want to use him as an example of christians.
I also condemn those that do violence in the name of christianity such as
violence against homosexuals and abortion clinics. Even though I consider
both issues wrong, violence against them is just as wrong. The end NEVER
justifies the means!
Now onto a more pleasant subject......
The most beautiful songs I have ever hear a corps play-
1973 Cavaliers - Sabbath Prayer
1970 SCV - Bridge Over Troubled Waters
1979 Guardsmen - GreenSleeves
1986 SkyRyders - Somewhere over the Rainbow
and the winner is ....
Clare De Lune by Phantom Regiment!!!!!
Eric Landis
Joe Bogie <joeb...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>You shouldn't have busted on Koresh! Everyone a Waco was a victim of the
I was under the impression that we're all satan worshippers. Are there
some Christians out there?
Eric
Novus Ordo Seclorum
Ron J Low
- with the exception of one's preference for mode of sensual
gratification.
I hope you're just pretending to be this sick to stimulate discussion.
Roger Binion
wrote:
And just what is this mysterious "gay lifestyle" anyway? I've often
wondered since my life is really quite mundane. I get up in the morning,
shower, go to wrk, come home and usually veg out in front of the TV or my
computer. Repeat many times. I haven't been to a gay bar in months, my
sex life is a yawn, etc... My life is practically no different than
anyone else's, in fact it's is probably more boring than most.
Also, why is it that people like to lump homosexuals with murderers, child
molesters and white supremists? Hello? Get a clue. If I remember
correctly, about 97% of ALL child molesters are heterosexual and their
victims usually girls. Also, the majority of this 97% are also white.
Another also, homosexuality is not a "preference" as I have seen used a
lot. To call it a preference implies choice. I did not choose to be gay,
it is just who I am. Actually, it is a very small part of who I am
For the Bible thumpers out there, why is it that you are so selective in
your condemdation and what rules you choose to live by? Read Levicticus,
ALL of it, and you will find a whole list of things that you are not
supposed to. One is not to eat pork. Better cut out those Egg McMuffins,
BLT's, ham on rye, etc.
I am always amazed at people when they start to discuss this issue and the
mud that is flung and the names that are called to each other. Give it a
rest.
"Love thy neighbor" and leave them alone.
p.s. I can't believe that this topic has propagated so many threads and
is STILL being discussed in a Drum Corps newsgroup. FACT: There are gays
everywhere and in all walks of life. To think that there aren't any in
drum corps is ludicrous. To think that gays should be banned from drum
corps is even more so. Don't we have other more relevent topic to
discuss?
--
Roger Binion
Brought to you by a PowerMac 7100/80AV running System 7.5.1 Windows 95? Yawn...
"Love is a word that some entertain, if you find it, you have won the game..." Stevie Nicks
Suncoast Sound Drum and Bugle Corps - Color Guard - 1983
Glassmen Drum and Bugle Corps - Baritone - 1982
Columbine, CO High School Guard Instructor
There, that should cover all bases...