The ultimate consequence was that much of the talent from the Bridgemen staff
abandonned the Bridgemen, and lured by whatever from Bill Cook, formed Star of
Indianna.
I had no idea there was any connection whatsoever between these two drum corps.
Can anyone shed more light on this situtation to either confirm, deny, or clarify
this story? In particular, Bill Cook would seem to have a lot to say on this
matter. What say you Bill and others?
Jim
Jim Udall <ji...@Newbridge.COM> wrote:
>I have heard an (admittedly one-sided) story that Bill Cook was somehow involv
>in the ultimate demise of the Bridgemen in 1985. The relevant details seem to
>be that Bill Cook approached the then Bayonne Bridgemen and offered to provide
>financial backing to them - provided they relocate to Indianna. This apparent
>caused huge divisions among staff and members.
I think in many circles, the fork marks were already showing in the Bridgemen
by 1985... (meaning... they were done...)
Bridgemen did a quick rockslide from the 1980s, going from top 3 to middle pack
to bottom 12 to NOT EVEN TOP 25,
1980 - 3rd
1981 - 6th
1982 - 8th
1983 - 11th
1984 - ?? (not top 12)
1985 - 27th place
1986 - inactive
1987 - meager attempted comeback as A/60 corps
probably the worst decay of a corps in history (at least those that went
inactive or folded were spared the pain of sliding so far down the ranks)
They were not even top 12 in 1984. So it seems kinda unlikely that this would
happen. Perhaps it is ex post facto that this comes up, since a number of
Bridgepeople went west (maybe following key staffers). RAMD-poster, and DM
Karen Ruschman (sorry if misspelled) and former poster Joey Keyes were former
Yellow-Coaters that went to Star in 1985.
Plus... I doubt there were ANY guarantees that Star was going to be as big as
they were in 1985. That was a HUGE gamble on anyone's part to go there, and
they certainly weren't paying members to march, right?
Sounds a bit fishy...
>The ultimate consequence was that much of the talent from the Bridgemen staff
>abandonned the Bridgemen, and lured by whatever from Bill Cook, formed Star of
>Indianna.
I think some in Bayonne might say that the abandoning had taken place well
before 1985...
>Jim
J.
That was even worse than the Blue Star death march starting by missing
the top 12 in '80, then getting in the mid-teens in '81 and 32nd in
'82. At least Blue Stars have made a comeback into the small corps
ranks.
How fast did North Star and Guardsmen leave the top 12?
Kelly
--
Kelly Hall <ha...@lal.cs.byu.edu>
http://lal.cs.byu.edu/people/hall.html
guardsmen were 7th in 79, 12th in 80, 15th in 81. in 82 marched under
20 horns at first show. field show was designed for full corps;;
marched the left half for first tour, finished 33rd?? didn't field the
following year.
North Star were 12th in 81, 15th in 82 then went inactive, but for
completely different reasons, refused to operate in red and run up
enormous debt like many other corps.
Tim
Brian Dalrymple
Florida Wave '85,'86
Okay, too funny (yet sad) a thread. I guess as someone who was there,
I should jump in.
Hey, I agree with Jay, the fork marks were there in Bayonne '84. Lack
of talent and desire? Hell no. Total lack of money.
The story, unfortunately true, about us running out of $ during the
'84 tour is true. For the Bloomington show (and none of us had a clue
who Cook was), we rehearsed lilke animals all day because they gave a
$1,000 prize at that show for the most entertaining corps(we won the
year before) and we were hoping to use the money to eat and continue
with our tour. So we practiced for like 8 hours, with just watermelon
and popcorn in our bellies. (Why this weird food, I have NO idea!)
Guess what? We didn't win the award, or the show. Bummer. By the
way, this is no slight to the cooking folks or the staff that was with
us. They were doing the best they could.
We made it to nationals with some help from parents, friends and other
corps. (Pride of Cincy was wonderful about sharing food with us.)
And so it goes. Most of the members had no intention of returning in
'85, cause the corps was "done" as far as anyone could see. No money,
no chance of getting money, no business plan. The big choice was
where we'd go.
I was an ageout with family and friends in Garfield, but I had some
philosophical differences that steered me away from that choice,
although it was local and they were clearly excellent. Was going to
school in Philly, but the Crossmen scene didn't seem to be a whole lot
better than that in Bayonne. Thought about BD, SCV and Phantom, but
then caught wind of this nutty rich dude starting a corps
in...Indiana? Looked into it and found out many staff I'd either
worked with or was friends with (i.e. Dennis DeLucia, Bob Dubinksi,
George Zingali, Mark Sylvester, Larry Kerschner, etc.) were going to
be there, so I gave it a try. Hated the pink uniforms, hated the
Disney music, but I dug the people and knew, finally, this was the way
drum corps should and could be done. (We'd been looking for corporate
sponsorship back to my Class A days.) So I stayed, we built a corps,
and the rest is RAMD history.
One note: I agree with another poster (Jay, again?) that it was a
gutsy move to try and make things work with Star. Not just me (the
list's most hated woman) but with all the members of all the corps
that showed up and made this thing happen. Especially the ageouts,
and we had more than a few. Todd, from the Troopers, plenty of Pride
kids, as well as Bridgemen. It would have been easy to go to a known
finalist (all these people had talent to burn), and I'll never be able
to thank then all enough for establishing a corps and working hard
enough to vault into finals in its first year.
Cook buy the Bridgemen? Nah, he's too smart for that. Nobody with
that much business acumen would touch a sinking ship with that many
holes in it. The Bridgemen did field a corps in '85, filled with a
few vets who I missed terribly and lots of new, green people. They
tried very hard, worked hard, but were not good enough to keep the
thing alive. Some of those very same people are working very hard to
re-establish and make secure drum corps in NJ, and I wish them well.
Any other questions, go ahead and ask.
K
Rick Olson
--
A member of one of the BEST Senior color guards ever to take the field/floor.
The KINGSMEN of Hamburg, New York
William Cook <SKX...@prodigy.com> wrote:
>> I think in many circles, the fork marks were already showing in the
>Bridgemen by 1985... (meaning... they were done...) <
>****
>Occasionally Joe Keays, Karen Ruschman and other former Bridgemen are on
>the net; former members and staff should have information on the final
>year, '86? . Some of the former members went to other corps; eight or
>ten came with Star in '85 and '86. I knew Bobby Hoffman and Denise
^^^^^^
>Delucia in '85 but we never talked about the details of 'what happened.'
> From what I gathered later, money was gone and they had a tough time
>getting home from finals in '85 or '86.
>Bill
>
And all this time I thought DENNIS was the brilliant architect of Star's
percussive birth... it Denise his wife? Daughter? :)
J.
Slips of the keys suck!
You need look no further than Bridgemen's own management for the reason the gre
at show corps is no longer active. Following their disqualification in 1977, th
e corps was in a financial hole which they never managed to dig themselves out
of and in fact, made deeper each year. Ever notice that the corps did not use
the same bus company every year? Hmmm?
Bridgemen were inexpensive to join and if dues weren't paid by some individuals
, it wasn't a big deal and they marched anyway. In 1979, dues were only $125. Y
es, that's it. We purchased our own meals on tour. Occasionally, the corps prov
ided breakfast cereal, but that was rare. At the time, many corps dues were abo
ut $250+.
Bobby Hoffman was a wizard when it came to show design and the corps on field s
hananagans, but a nightmare when it came to management. In 1981, Bobby tried m
anaging the corps while remaining as show designer. Unfortunately, being only o
ne man, Bobby had only so much time and devoted a majority of it to the show an
d not managerial responsibilities. Needless to say, this put the corps in dire
straights for the next director and the corps never recovered. When the corps
finished the 1985 there wasn't enough money to get the corps home.
As far as Bobby Hoffman, Dennis DeLucia and Larry Kirschner going to Star...Fro
m what I've come to understand from other former members as well as other indiv
iduals, the corps was dead at finals in Atlanta (?). The booster organization's
support wasn't enough to keep the corps afloat during the winter. I'm not sure
, but there may have also been some setbacks in the corps' Bingo operation. So,
as far as I know, Bridgemen's staff and about fourteen former members took adv
antage of Star's beginning, as did members of Pride of Cinncinati. Did Star des
troy that corps also? Hardly.
Bridgemen's folding, as unfortunate and disheartening as it was, resulted from
the corps management's inability to properly manage it finances (those props di
dn't come cheaply...) and establish a sound, reliable source of funds. That's i
t. No need to look for blame anywhere, but Bayonne.
Maybe, as we gather for our 30th Anniversary Reunion in October, former members
will look into reviving the ol' corps. Hopefully, not as an alumni corps (NO OF
FENSE TO THOSE CORPS), but as a junior corps. At the minimum, I would hope we c
ould raise more support for Bayonne's new corps - Raiders.
TTFN,
Harry Heidelmark
Friends of mine owned the bus company that provided the tour buses
for years. They even mentioned that getting payment was difficult.
Eventually, they closed books and wrote off the losses.
It's kind of silly to think that another drumcorp could be solely
responsible for the demise of another. Buying them out, etc...???
Joe Karkut
Sincerely,
> At different times, I have either bought out or ruined 27th, VK, Troopers,
> Colts, and Bridgemen! God, I've been a busy little bastard.
> Bill
This thread is funny. Only because I marched in Bridgemen and saw the
collapse of a great Corps first hand. Total mismangement. Times were a
changin' in the eighties financially for DrumCorps' and the Bridgemen
front office had no idea of what to do. Itwas so sad. There's nothing
like the Bridgemen anymore and it's a shame. A whole angle towards the
activity has been lost. And as far as Bill Cook, nope, the man was
smart enough to pick up what was left after it pretty much had fallen
apart. He certainly had no hand in the demise itself. I know that there
was no way Dennis DeLucia was going back to Bridgemen even if Star hadn't
gotten a hold of him. He hadn't been paid for quite a while. And I'm
not talking small sums of money either. They owed his store money
too... Like I said, it's just such a shame.
I miss them.
Tommy Igoe
Cheers!
Bob
> This thread is funny. Only because I marched in Bridgemen and saw the
>collapse of a great Corps first hand. Total mismangement. Times were a
[snip]
>
>I miss them.
We all do, my friend.
Todd
Hey Karen!!!
It's been 10 years now? This thread sure brings back *alot* of memories.
Especially that big care package from Pride of Cincy. That was a Godsend.
Then the watermelon & popcorn 3 times a day, and I don't even like
watermelon. We had to make sure we didn't break any sticks because
there were no more replacements. I must say though that Bridgemen '84
was the best time of my life. And Star '85 was a close second.
You're right on the money about Bill Cook. He's a great person. And the
whole organization did an amazing job in making Star's first season a
successful and memorable one. It's amazing how these stories get conjured
up 10 years later.
Enjoy.
-Morty-
The biggest problem management had was that they lost control over the staff in the late '70s and it was never regained, due to a weak-willed board that deferred to
the staff's autonomy in hope of competitive rewards.
Letting a staff that cared about little else put their own careers and competitive success run amok was basically what killed the Bridgemen, not management's
incompetence per se. The corps first, and longest-tenured, director, Ed Holmes, quit after the 1978 season when he realized that the staff was not about to let him
manage the corps with the levels of discipline and integrity as he saw fit. The corps started sliding after Eddie retired.
As far as Star's role in the corps demolition, you can't blame Star for Bayonne's demise--many kids saw the writing on the wall and booked it to greener pastures. The
question is, did one instructor for Star deliberately target the Bridgemen as a recruiting source as part of an effort to gain revenge? If so, and I'm not saying that's what
happend, only opening it up as a speculative possibility, then that instructor's actions, as and individual, were wrong.
Doug
manage the corps with the levels of discipline and integrity as he saw
fit. The corps started sliding after Eddie retired. <
Doug - I've hear about Ed Holmes; what's happened to him.
This note on the net is the first one that I've had an address to
respond to. Now, if we can get Boo off of his toy bbs, maybe we can have
the 'prose man' tell all of these folks about his garden.
Bill
As a B'men member who went to Star in '85 I can tell you first hand that no
staff member actively recruited members from any corps. In fact, most of
their recruitment efforts targetted the local high schools in the Bloomington
area. As you said, the writing was on the wall and the news was out about
certain B'men staff going to Star. For most of us, it was one last chance to
march in the finals before we age out.
And even if there was recruitment, what is so wrong with that?
-Morty-
Eddie retired from his job as an Exec as Ford Motors a number of years ago.
He and his wife, Irene, moved out of Bayonne (which is always a good move) and bought a home at the Jersey Shore.
Ed was one of the class acts of Drum Corps.
Doug
> As a B'men member who went to Star in '85 I can tell you first hand that no
> staff member actively recruited members from any corps...
That's good to hear.
>
> And even if there was recruitment, what is so wrong with that?
>
There was a time in the activity when that question would never have been asked. If kids come to you
from another corps, great. You don't go looking to recruit out another organization as a goal. That would be
( and I know this has no meaning in today's world ) UNETHICAL.
Again, nobody said this is what happened, just speculating on the possibilities.
Doug Luberts
Bayonne Bridgemen (Drum Line)
1975-1978 (and with the scorchmarks on my ass to show for it.)
Having been in the corps when it rebounded from being "done" after '75 when we were
lucky enough to have a director who had a plan, I'm glad I was 3000 miles away in So Cal.
when everything hit the fan in '85. Just hearing about it makes me want to cry and then get
out my Ouzi and climb a bell tower.
The fact that it's 10 years later doesn't make it easier to swallow.
Doug Luberts
Bridgemen '75-'78
|> Doug Luberts
|> Bayonne Bridgemen (Drum Line)
|> 1975-1978 (and with the scorchmarks on my ass to show for it.)
^^^^^^^^^^
We're not worthy, we're not worthy, we're not worhty.... :)
Awsome drumline man. I remember watching you in the parking lot
of Mile High stadium after the 78 finals.
Micro clean.
Monster mean.
>>We made it to nationals with some help from parents, friends and other
>>corps. (Pride of Cincy was wonderful about sharing food with us.)
>>And so it goes. Most of the members had no intention of returning in
>>'85, cause the corps was "done" as far as anyone could see. No money,
>>no chance of getting money, no business plan. The big choice was
>>where we'd go.
>Hey Karen!!!
>It's been 10 years now? This thread sure brings back *alot* of memories.
>Especially that big care package from Pride of Cincy. That was a Godsend.
>Then the watermelon & popcorn 3 times a day, and I don't even like
>watermelon. We had to make sure we didn't break any sticks because
>there were no more replacements. I must say though that Bridgemen '84
>was the best time of my life. And Star '85 was a close second.
>You're right on the money about Bill Cook. He's a great person. And the
>whole organization did an amazing job in making Star's first season a
>successful and memorable one. It's amazing how these stories get conjured
>up 10 years later.
>Enjoy.
>-Morty-
Morty-
Wow! A blast from the past! Glad you're doing well, and I'm glad we
can laugh about those times...now.
God, I remember you guys agonizing each time someone broke a stick or
a drum head. (I'm sure a lot of that stuff came out of Dennis'
pocket.) I didn't think we would make it at times, but we did. Good
for us!
I agree with you: Bridgemen '84 was the best time with the best group
of people I ever had in drum corps and '85 Star was a close second.
Good to remember the good and the bad, but has it really been 10
years? Man, are we getting old!
Cheers!
Karen
>Karen & Morty:
>> >We made it to nationals with some help from parents, friends and other
>> >corps. (Pride of Cincy was wonderful about sharing food with us.)
>> >And so it goes. Most of the members had no intention of returning in
>> >'85, cause the corps was "done" as far as anyone could see. No money,
>> >no chance of getting money, no business plan. The big choice was
>> >where we'd go.
>Having been in the corps when it rebounded from being "done" after '75 when we were
>lucky enough to have a director who had a plan, I'm glad I was 3000 miles away in So Cal.
>when everything hit the fan in '85. Just hearing about it makes me want to cry and then get
>out my Ouzi and climb a bell tower.
>The fact that it's 10 years later doesn't make it easier to swallow.
>Doug Luberts
>Bridgemen '75-'78
Doug:
My apologies for being so late in responding to your post, but I
wanted to thank you for the note. It's great to hear from someone who
made it back from the "dark days" only to emerge with a great and
wildly successful corps. I had already joined a small, local corps in
'78, but we took a Saturday off, made the trek to Allentown to see you
guys do prelims at like 8:00a.m. (a...ahem...penalty for the previous
year, I believe). It was wild. You were on surrounded by other small
corps, (St. Ignatious Girls went on either right before or after you),
and I just flipped when these wild, yellow coated crazies came
screaming onto the field for prelims and then absolutely tore the
place down. I was hooked for life! Having never actually seen a
corps show before, I stayed for all of prelims and then all of finals.
Made it home at like 3:00a.m., woke the entire household by raving to
my sister about what I had seen and WHAM! Another drum corps family
was born. Thanks, again, for the wonderful memories... and for
ruining my life :-) !!!
By the way, it's good to know there's someone I can call when the need
to climb a tower and let it all go comes over me! The code words will
be: "Doug, I'm going postal. Wanna come, too?"
Be well,
Karen
Thanks for the kind verbage. Those were absolutely insane times with an insane drum corps and a staff that, well, didn't have
both oars in the water either. In short it was a blast, despite the down points.
Let me know when you're going postal, I believe we can find a spare assault weapon for you.
Doug
(snip)
> and I just flipped when these wild, yellow coated crazies came
> screaming onto the field for prelims and then absolutely tore the
> place down. I was hooked for life! Having never actually seen a
> corps show before, I stayed for all of prelims and then all of finals.
> Made it home at like 3:00a.m., woke the entire household by raving to
> my sister about what I had seen and WHAM! Another drum corps family
> was born.
Great story, Karen! Thanks for posting so all could read it.
(I'm a sucker for POSITIVE posts like this.)
Ron Grogg
Minnesota Brass Inc. ('80 '81 '89 '90 '92 '96)