Musical Drumlines
Chris Goodwin
All you out there who are both percussonists and musicians, the time is
near to rejoice! The musical drumline is making a big come back. I know
they haven't been around for a few years, but this year figures to be a
"Rapture", if you will. Good always wins out over evil and the
Percussionist will slay the drummer, hopefully once and for all.
This year marks the second coming of HANNUM!
Musical drumlines reaching for the promised Land in 97:
CROSSMEN!!!-Hannum
PHANTOM- Hannum influence
SCV-Hardamon influence
GLASSMEN-Hannum influence
BLUE KNIGHTS-Hardamon, with a Hannum influence
CAROLINA CROWN-Hannum influence
BOSTON CRUSADERS- Hannum
MAGIC-Hannum influence
The Prodical Son and the Latin Demon,in a Pirate Suit, will be Cast into
the lake of fire, and once again music will be heard coming out of
Marching percussion, but only for a time...
Obviously, this is a joke however, there is a message in here!
Chris Goodwin
Danny Medina
I have to agree with you here. It seems lately that all drumlines want to
do is just ram some notes for the sake of ramming notes. But along
those same lines the judges have rewarded them for doing that. I marched
at Phantom Regiment in 1994 and 1996, and I'll be dammed if they weren't
one of the most musical drumlines this summer.
Most of that came from the fact that they took the time to listen to the
horn
book and integrate the drum book with it. But when it actually came time
for scoring they weren't rewarded.
--
Dan
Phantom Regiment 94,96
Rick Beckham
In article <01bbe65e$3ded5960$8a84...@remote.okstate.edu>,
absolutely the weakest drumline I have ever witnessed from Phantom.
Sorry if that doesn't "ring your chimes", but field percussion evolved
as a competitive rudimental art/sport. Let's leave concert percussion
in the concert hall (I might add that rudimental players have much more
developed chops).
If you feel some lines are ramming notes perhaps you need to stand back
and analyze what you hear. You might be surprised at what you find.
Rick Beckham
In article <32AC9C...@bayou.uh.edu>,
Chris Goodwin <cgr...@bayou.uh.edu> wrote:
>All you out there who are both percussonists and musicians, the time is
>near to rejoice! The musical drumline is making a big come back. I know
>they haven't been around for a few years, but this year figures to be a
>"Rapture", if you will. Good always wins out over evil and the
>Percussionist will slay the drummer, hopefully once and for all.
>This year marks the second coming of HANNUM!
>
of good solid in-your-face, tough as nails and can't be beat,
rudimental drumming, instead of the wimpy ass shit played by most
corps today. And before someone responds I'll say it now. Rudiments
can be musical, and are much more demanding than the concert type
crap we see on the field. Drum corps field percussion has degenerated
into a moving concert percussion section, where the battery plays
second banana to the pit for god's sake.
Sorry about the rant but you hit a nerve.
>Musical drumlines reaching for the promised Land in 97:
If only they could PLAY.
>
>CROSSMEN!!!-Hannum
>PHANTOM- Hannum influence
>SCV-Hardamon influence
>GLASSMEN-Hannum influence
>BLUE KNIGHTS-Hardamon, with a Hannum influence
>CAROLINA CROWN-Hannum influence
>BOSTON CRUSADERS- Hannum
>MAGIC-Hannum influence
>
snip
>Chris Goodwin
gsne...@aol.com
Rick Beckham said:
Uh, Dan, I saw Phantom in Dallas in '96, and I personally felt it was
absolutely the weakest drumline I have ever witnessed from Phantom.
Sorry if that doesn't "ring your chimes", but field percussion evolved
as a competitive rudimental art/sport. Let's leave concert percussion in
the concert hall
In addition to the ridiculous comment that PR's drumline was the "weakest"
ever, it sounds like your saying drum corps drum lines shouldn't be
musical.
In GENERAL, drums are not melodic instruments and therefore are meant to
enhance the overall musical picture. The best drum lines, to me, are the
ones that don't stand out. If they stand out, they are obviously doing
more than just enhancing the music.
As far as the weak drumline comment, I'm not a drummer and won't say it
was the best ever, but let's be realistic. If they really were the
"weakest" ever, there is NO WAY Regiment would have won DCI.
And most top 12 drumlines are OUTSTANDING. The differences between them
are so small that it's somewhat insulting to the other drumlines in DCI to
say one of the top ones was "weak."
Greg Newell
Wayne Bovenschen
Rick Beckham wrote:
>
> In article <01bbe65e$3ded5960$8a84...@remote.okstate.edu>,
> Danny Medina <mde...@okstate.edu> wrote:
> >I have to agree with you here. It seems lately that all drumlines want to
> >do is just ram some notes for the sake of ramming notes. But along
> >those same lines the judges have rewarded them for doing that. I marched
> >at Phantom Regiment in 1994 and 1996, and I'll be dammed if they weren't
> >one of the most musical drumlines this summer.
> >Most of that came from the fact that they took the time to listen to the
> >horn
> >book and integrate the drum book with it. But when it actually came time
> >for scoring they weren't rewarded.
> >
> absolutely the weakest drumline I have ever witnessed from Phantom.
> Sorry if that doesn't "ring your chimes", but field percussion evolved
> as a competitive rudimental art/sport. Let's leave concert percussion
> developed chops).
>
> If you feel some lines are ramming notes perhaps you need to stand back
> and analyze what you hear. You might be surprised at what you find.
>
>
> >
> >--
> >Dan
> >Phantom Regiment 94,96
> >
Uh, Rick - stay out in the parking lot. There is lots of ram there.
That WAS the most musical, and by far the CLEANEST Phantom drumline to date.
I can say this with authority - I was in the drumline in 1983, the highest
placing PR percussion section - second. Playing musical ADDS difficulty, my
friend. There are obviously two schools of thought here. I will always
admire the percussion section that fits the horn book. PR 96 was perfectly
coordinated. It took a lot of guts to leave the battery out for approx. two
minutes at the beginning. Had the battery played during that section, I
would have puked.
I saw PR at Madison. I guess they had a weak show in Dallas - they should
have won drums in Madison - by far the cleanest line competing (BD was very
close IMO). I guess there will always be two schools of thought. BTW:
Rick, If you feel some lines are playing musically, perhaps you need to
stand back and analyze what you hear. You might be surprised at what
you find.
We're not talking about rudiments, or the lack of.....it is how you
interpret them. H.A.N.D.
Wayne
jgl...@aol.com
is this an oxymoron?????
Rick Beckham
In article <32AD7B...@okway.okstate.edu>,
Wayne Bovenschen <wbo...@okway.okstate.edu> wrote:
>Rick Beckham wrote:
>>
>Uh, Rick - stay out in the parking lot. There is lots of ram there.
>
>That WAS the most musical, and by far the CLEANEST Phantom drumline to date.
>I can say this with authority - I was in the drumline in 1983, the highest
>placing PR percussion section - second. Playing musical ADDS difficulty, my
>friend. There are obviously two schools of thought here. I will always
>admire the percussion section that fits the horn book. PR 96 was perfectly
>coordinated. It took a lot of guts to leave the battery out for approx. two
>minutes at the beginning. Had the battery played during that section, I
>would have puked.
>
yourself two minutes of tacet at the beginning. How much more tacet
throughout the show? And what was the level of demand on what was
actually played? Not much from my spectator's seat.
>I saw PR at Madison. I guess they had a weak show in Dallas - they should
>have won drums in Madison - by far the cleanest line competing (BD was very
>close IMO). I guess there will always be two schools of thought. BTW:
>
> Rick, If you feel some lines are playing musically, perhaps you need to
> stand back and analyze what you hear. You might be surprised at what
> you find.
>
Believe me I have, and I don't appreciate what I hear for the most part.
I look for lines that approach athleticism, physical strength and skill,
and musicality on top of that. I want something different and unique
from drum corps drumlines, not an imitation of a concert percussion
ensemble. Two minutes of downtime at the very beginning of a show is
pussy.
>We're not talking about rudiments, or the lack of.....it is how you
>interpret them. H.A.N.D.
>
Sorry, but we are discussing lack of rudiments. How do you see it as
an interpretation problem? I can recognize rudiments when I see them,
and I admire lines that pound them out musically. What we're arguing
is the sad state of the art, rudimentally, where field percussion
has become a prancing, dancing, body-sculpting, concert percussion
ensemble that wouldn't amount to anything if the pit was removed.
>Wayne
Rick Beckham
In article <19961210203...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
<gsne...@aol.com> wrote:
>Rick Beckham said:
> Uh, Dan, I saw Phantom in Dallas in '96, and I personally felt it was
>absolutely the weakest drumline I have ever witnessed from Phantom.
> Sorry if that doesn't "ring your chimes", but field percussion evolved
>as a competitive rudimental art/sport. Let's leave concert percussion in
>the concert hall
>
>In addition to the ridiculous comment that PR's drumline was the "weakest"
>ever, it sounds like your saying drum corps drum lines shouldn't be
>musical.
Where have I made that comment oh gazer of the crystal ball? They were
weak because the battery didn't play much. Rudiments can be musical,
in fact I favor a musically rudimental line over a non-musical
rudimental line any day. But field percussion has eroded into something
it wasn't meant to be. Field percussion evolved as a competitive
rudimental art. The competitive portion involved trying to measure
demand, physical, mental, and coordinative. The physical has shifted
from the hands to the feet (in the case of the pit the feet don't
count - strike). What little playing is left in the hands is now
done with bounce on a super tight head (sorry, 16th and 24th note
double strokes does NOT thrill me, strike two). Faster drill equates
to watered parts. Execution no longer matters. The coordinative has
all but disappeared (strike three). How many lines lay down difficult
flam passages?
>In GENERAL, drums are not melodic instruments and therefore are meant to
>enhance the overall musical picture. The best drum lines, to me, are the
>ones that don't stand out. If they stand out, they are obviously doing
>more than just enhancing the music.
Maybe for a concert band that sentiment floats, but for field percussion
you couldn't be further from the truth. Learn some history of the
activity before you condescend.
>As far as the weak drumline comment, I'm not a drummer and won't say it
>was the best ever, but let's be realistic. If they really were the
>"weakest" ever, there is NO WAY Regiment would have won DCI.
I didn't say they were the weakest line in the top 12 for 1996, I said
they were one of the weakest PR drumlines I've ever seen.
>And most top 12 drumlines are OUTSTANDING. The differences between them
>are so small that it's somewhat insulting to the other drumlines in DCI to
>say one of the top ones was "weak."
>
That maybe so. I won't argue. The kids who go to march should be insulted
that they are no longer being trained how to play.
Perhaps dc drumlines should return to what made them unique and
outstanding from bands.
>Greg Newell
>
Jeb Puryear
Chris Goodwin wrote:
>
> All you out there who are both percussonists and musicians, the time is
> near to rejoice! The musical drumline is making a big come back. I know
> they haven't been around for a few years, but this year figures to be a
> "Rapture", if you will. Good always wins out over evil and the
> Percussionist will slay the drummer, hopefully once and for all.
> This year marks the second coming of HANNUM!
>
>
> PHANTOM- Hannum influence
> SCV-Hardamon influence
> GLASSMEN-Hannum influence
> BLUE KNIGHTS-Hardamon, with a Hannum influence
> CAROLINA CROWN-Hannum influence
> BOSTON CRUSADERS- Hannum
> MAGIC-Hannum influence
>
> the lake of fire, and once again music will be heard coming out of
> Marching percussion, but only for a time...
>
> Obviously, this is a joke however, there is a message in here!
>
> Chris Goodwin
Cadets - how did you miss them....bass drums..beautiful...
These corps have to be included.....to bad so many people didn't get to
see them...
Nite Express - very similar style to Blue Knights....i have a little of
a bias but.....I thought our bass book was killer...
Mandarins - Small line...overall percussively very tight
Les Etoiles - also very tight
Jeb Puryear
Nite Express 95-96 (98 Hopefully) Bass
Levi Boldt
Rick Beckham wrote:
> >In GENERAL, drums are not melodic instruments and therefore are meant to
> >enhance the overall musical picture. The best drum lines, to me, are the
> >ones that don't stand out. If they stand out, they are obviously doing
> >more than just enhancing the music.
> Maybe for a concert band that sentiment floats, but for field percussion
> you couldn't be further from the truth.
The sentiment floats in any musical environment, which drum corps
happens to be. Maybe it wasn't that way when you marched, but since you
didn't tell us when that was, I can't really say.
The simple fact is that most corps today are more concerned about
musicality than ever before. The activity is no longer twelve minutes
of sopranos playing Grand C's at ffff, the colorguard doing "twelve
minutes of shit in the air", and the drumline doing twelve minutes of
hard-ass licks for no other reason than they can. Everything is
integrated into a musical package (some do this better than others).
> Learn some history of the activity before you condescend.
Greg knows his history. Perhaps he wasn't even alive when you marched.
I wasn't. (At least that's my guess, since you didn't leave you corps
experience.) You sound like you want a return to the style of the early
70's, when my _parents_ were young enough to march!
The activity has changed. Whether that's for better or worse
(personally, I think it's more musical and therefore better) is another
matter. But it has changed and there's no going back. Deal with it.
--
Levi Boldt
Michigan State University
Professorial Assistant
'94 Coachmen, '95-'96 Colts
http://pilot.msu.edu/~boldtlev
[] "He came to pay a debt He did not owe
[] because we owed a debt we could not pay."
[][][][][] -anonymous
[]
[] "He is no fool who gives what he cannot
[] hope to keep to gain what he cannot lose."
[] -Jim Elliot
[]
[] "If Christ be God and died for me, then
there is no sacrifice too great for me to
make for Him."
-C.T. Studd
"That's the thing with faith... if you don't
have it, you don't understand, but if you
do have it, no explanations are necessary."
-anonymous
Chris Goodwin
Rick,
I saw Phantom in Dallas Also, and you must have been smoking crack!
That's the best line Regiment has ever had. They where great and should
have won drums. They had quality of sound, just like you have to have on
any other Instrument. They played very musically! The Book actuallty fit
the music and made sense. SHOCKER! They had tremendous control in all
areas(hi end and Low end).they played TOGETHER. It didn't sound like 7
great individual snare drummers, it sounded like a snare line. Etc, in
all sections. I didn't like a few of the things that the pit did, but
Lee Beddis didn't write the Pit book. As for Concert percussion, if you
think that is easier than Marching or that Marching players have better
chops, you're crazy. I used to think that way to when I marched, Then I
started studing with a Major Orchestra Player. Marching stuff is easy
compared to real legit playing. At least it's harder(legit playing) if
you play correctly! Drum Corps is a Musical art form right? Well then,
percussion is either played correctly or incorrectly. There is no, one
way for marching and a totally different way for concert. The same rules
apply. Quality music is Quality music regardless of where it is
performed. I guess Regiment was "Weak" because they didn't have a drum
solo, right? Or because they didn't try to find every opportunity to
play whatever cheesy lick they could thing of, right? When you Write
drum parts correctly, as Lee Beddis did, they pretty much write
themselves. You write whatever the music tells you to write.
Did you think 93 STAR was weak? That's the Ballsiest line ever. They
played just what Barber and Bartok wrote. Lee Beddis also taught there
to, by the way.
Chris Goodwin
blaine thomas locheed
> You speak with fork-ed tongue. When are we going to see a revival
> of good solid in-your-face, tough as nails and can't be beat,
> rudimental drumming, instead of the wimpy ass shit played by most
> corps today. And before someone responds I'll say it now. Rudiments
> can be musical, and are much more demanding than the concert type
> crap we see on the field. Drum corps field percussion has degenerated
> into a moving concert percussion section, where the battery plays
> second banana to the pit for god's sake.
>
The more exposed the part is, the harder it is to clean.
Everyone knows its harder to get nine guys to play whole notes together
than it is to play a moving 16th note line with flams sprinkled
everywhere. I'm not saying we should all go out there and play whole
notes. I agree that rudiments can be used musically. The difference of
opinion here surrounds two different conceptions of what is meant by the
word "difficulty". Some people (like the writer of the above), think
that difficulty equals more notes. I suppose the zenith of difficult
drumming would be to have the entire battery play as many notes as
possible all the time. But, then no one could tell if it was clean or
not and suddenly you have a drumline that sounds like 25 guys making
noise instead of 3 distinct sections that can each be heard with perfect
clarity. Its not a question of talent. Good players (especially snare
drummers) are a dime a dozen these days and they're all 16 years
old. To me the challenge lies in getting 9 snares to sound like one
guy. Or, 5 tenors to sound like one. If I'm setting a line, I don't
want the guys who don't know anything else but how to compress as many
notes as possible into the smallest amount of space. I want
the guy with chops but who can listen to what's going on around him and
can play clean with the guy next to him. Don't get me wrong, I like a
lot of notes just as much as the next guy, but so much of the stuff
being cranked out today is just notes for the sake of notes. If that's
all we're here for, why don't we scrap the horns and the color gaurd and
just do indoor shows. Think of all the money we'll save on sunscreen.
Blaine T. Locheed
Cavie Quadz 94-95
Illini Drumline 93-96
Blue Stars Staff 96-?
Shannon Carson Jeffreys
I'll give this my opinon.
I seen all the vids and heard all the CD's for years.
A LOT of Drum lines are playing junk.Yes it's clean.
But its still junk.
Since when has Ravel's Bolero had JUNGLE DRUMMING in it.
Not everything needs percusion in it.Phantom proved this too
be true. They had a book that FIT THEIR MUSIC.If want too hear
some other musical lines then check out 87 cadets, 88 cadets,and
93 Star.Their book fits their music.
Too many drummers are into what looks and sounds cool.
They aren't into musicality.
If you wan't too hear cool than go to the parking lot.
Just my opinon...
Shannon Jeffreys
scje...@olemiss.edu
ace...@aol.com
i think its great that there sre such things as "musical drumlines . but
Phantom was NOT the only musical group out there
lets give some other lines some credit
Tony
Allan Murray
Last time I checked Ralph Hardimon was way ahead of the pack!!!!!
Rick Beckham <rbec...@bnr.ca> wrote in article
<58ju02$1...@crchh327.rich.bnr.ca>...
> In article <32AC9C...@bayou.uh.edu>,
> Chris Goodwin <cgr...@bayou.uh.edu> wrote:
> >All you out there who are both percussonists and musicians, the time is
> >near to rejoice! The musical drumline is making a big come back. I know
> >they haven't been around for a few years, but this year figures to be a
> >"Rapture", if you will. Good always wins out over evil and the
> >Percussionist will slay the drummer, hopefully once and for all.
> >This year marks the second coming of HANNUM!
> >
>
> >Musical drumlines reaching for the promised Land in 97:
>
> If only they could PLAY.
>
> >
> >CROSSMEN!!!-Hannum
> >PHANTOM- Hannum influence
> >SCV-Hardamon influence
> >GLASSMEN-Hannum influence
> >BLUE KNIGHTS-Hardamon, with a Hannum influence
> >CAROLINA CROWN-Hannum influence
> >BOSTON CRUSADERS- Hannum
> >MAGIC-Hannum influence
> >
> snip
>
> >Chris Goodwin
>
>
>
gsne...@aol.com
Rick Beckham said:
But field percussion has eroded into something it wasn't meant to be.
Field percussion evolved as a competitive rudimental art. The competitive
portion involved trying to measure demand, physical, mental, and
------
------
Has field percussion eroded or evolved just like the rest of drum corps
and the world in general? I believe it has evolved to a higher art form.
Greg
RHardi5005
Its Hardimon, not Hardaman !
Thank you,
Ralph Hardimon
I don't quite understand where my buddy Hannum fits in with the Blue
Knights? could you explain what you mean please?
Thanks again,
Ralph
Rick Beckham
In article <32AE06...@pilot.msu.edu>,
Levi Boldt <bold...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>Rick Beckham wrote:
>
>The sentiment floats in any musical environment, which drum corps
>happens to be. Maybe it wasn't that way when you marched, but since you
>didn't tell us when that was, I can't really say.
>
Sorry, drum corps percussion used to be about playing. Playing with
balls which didn't preclude playing musically. We now see percussion
'ensembles' that are indistinguishable from concert percussion
ensembles, and chops, my friend, are being sacrificed.
I marched '80 and '81.
>The simple fact is that most corps today are more concerned about
>musicality than ever before. The activity is no longer twelve minutes
>of sopranos playing Grand C's at ffff, the colorguard doing "twelve
>minutes of shit in the air", and the drumline doing twelve minutes of
>hard-ass licks for no other reason than they can. Everything is
>integrated into a musical package (some do this better than others).
>
*sigh* I guess growing up in bando corps has left you clueless to
what the past was about. It's obvious from your description of the
past you don't know what you're talking about. I have NO problem
with corps becoming more musical. I DO have a problem with players
not learning to play in the DC arena, and the battery has been
sacrificed. Scores are arranged to placate rudimental no-nothing
judges who wouldn't know demand if it bit them on the ass.
>> Learn some history of the activity before you condescend.
>
>Greg knows his history. Perhaps he wasn't even alive when you marched.
>I wasn't. (At least that's my guess, since you didn't leave you corps
>experience.) You sound like you want a return to the style of the early
>70's, when my _parents_ were young enough to march!
>
I want to see drumlines playing, not body sculpting, not prancing, not
doing a 5 minute tacet, not playing simplistic parts to achieve a more
'concert hall' feel. The truly sad part is judges and instructors who
pleaded for the removal of the tic argued that the tic restricted
arrangers and drill designers from trying harder stuff. The exact
opposite happened in percussion. Instead of harder, more intricate
licks, spectators are reduced to tears waiting for something to
happen. If execution is no longer a factor I would expect to see
snare lines whip out incredible feats of stick legerdemain. At best
we the spectators are treated to MAYBE 5 seconds of some mediocre
lick. At worst we sit through 11 minutes of 'Gee I should've went to
get a hotdog'.
>The activity has changed. Whether that's for better or worse
>(personally, I think it's more musical and therefore better) is another
>matter. But it has changed and there's no going back. Deal with it.
>
Everything is cyclic, I'm sure there will be a resurgence of drumlines
that play, it's just a question of when.
>Levi Boldt
>
RHardi5005
Hey fellow drummers and percussionist, just try to remember something
extremely important...........Theres plenty of room for every style, every
approach,every interpretation, and everybody...all styles and approaches
have been rewarded in the past,I feel its been ok, so, lets just continue
on. There is no note or a phrase (musical or rudimental) that hasn't been
played already, so continue to create within the very large parameters and
expect falls, as well as pay offs......good luck to all!!!!!!!!!!
Ralph Hardimon
Rick Beckham
In article <32ADD5...@bayou.uh.edu>,
Chris Goodwin <cgr...@bayou.uh.edu> wrote:
>Rick,
>
>I saw Phantom in Dallas Also, and you must have been smoking crack!
>That's the best line Regiment has ever had. They where great and should
Then you don't know your history of Phantom very well.
>have won drums. They had quality of sound, just like you have to have on
>any other Instrument. They played very musically! The Book actuallty fit
>the music and made sense. SHOCKER! They had tremendous control in all
>areas(hi end and Low end).they played TOGETHER. It didn't sound like 7
>great individual snare drummers, it sounded like a snare line. Etc, in
>all sections. I didn't like a few of the things that the pit did, but
>Lee Beddis didn't write the Pit book. As for Concert percussion, if you
>think that is easier than Marching or that Marching players have better
>chops, you're crazy. I used to think that way to when I marched, Then I
>started studing with a Major Orchestra Player. Marching stuff is easy
>compared to real legit playing. At least it's harder(legit playing) if
The marching stuff of today is easier, yeah, I'll give you that. But
anytime you want to match chops I'm ready.
>you play correctly! Drum Corps is a Musical art form right? Well then,
Oh, play CORRECTLY. I haven't mentioned this yet, but Phantom's snare
line had very bad hand position technique. I could see it from the
stands. One guy on the end didn't even hold his left stick in a
legitimate traditional grip. Buddy, if you want to truly learn the
fine art of rudimental snare I can suggest many instructors who will
put you on the right path. But beware, you will have to WORK.
Not to mention that when the snares played you couldn't hear them
because of the tuning.
>percussion is either played correctly or incorrectly. There is no, one
Let's see, at least two minutes of tacet time from the battery, possibly
five. That's not playing. But is it correct to not play? I'm hearing
conflicting arguments from you. "If it's musical not to play..blah blah".
>way for marching and a totally different way for concert. The same rules
>apply. Quality music is Quality music regardless of where it is
Drum corps percussion evolved as a competitive art, not to serve as
background sound effects for the corps, or pit.
>performed. I guess Regiment was "Weak" because they didn't have a drum
>solo, right? Or because they didn't try to find every opportunity to
>play whatever cheesy lick they could thing of, right? When you Write
You sound like you mistaked corps for band. Sorry, different idiom.
You make me wonder what would've happened had Jerry Lee Lewis
tried to convince Beethoven to change his writing style for
club performances.
>drum parts correctly, as Lee Beddis did, they pretty much write
>themselves. You write whatever the music tells you to write.
Gee, did Lee write them or did they write themselves?
>Did you think 93 STAR was weak? That's the Ballsiest line ever. They
>played just what Barber and Bartok wrote. Lee Beddis also taught there
Then that my friend is NOT drum corps drumming. We arrange music to
fit the corps idiom, not try to capture the original intent. Otherwise
why do corps at all? Just go find a good symphonic band somewhere, and
don't bother getting all sweaty on a football field. People like you
should wake up. The dc audiences are diminishing, DCI needs Disney
to pull it's fat out of the fire, the whole ball of wax is about
to crash and burn in the near future, mostly because dc is no longer
a unique or recognizable art form.
Rick Beckham
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.961210...@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
blaine thomas locheed <bloc...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> The more exposed the part is, the harder it is to clean.
>Everyone knows its harder to get nine guys to play whole notes together
>than it is to play a moving 16th note line with flams sprinkled
You're shitting me, right? You think whole notes are difficult for
lines that "dut dut" for attacks so loud we can hear them in the
stands?
>everywhere. I'm not saying we should all go out there and play whole
*snip*
>clarity. Its not a question of talent. Good players (especially snare
>drummers) are a dime a dozen these days and they're all 16 years
I beg to differ, it is a question of talent. Players are not trained
as they were in the past. Correct me if I'm wrong.
*snip*
>can play clean with the guy next to him. Don't get me wrong, I like a
>lot of notes just as much as the next guy, but so much of the stuff
>being cranked out today is just notes for the sake of notes. If that's
Can you give examples of lines today that crank out notes? I imagine
Crossmen and Madison, but Thurston's gone. Gee, I've seen high school
lines that can play more difficult books that what's put on the dc
field these days (Plano senior high had a drum book this year that
makes one say "I wish I played that").
>all we're here for, why don't we scrap the horns and the color gaurd and
>just do indoor shows. Think of all the money we'll save on sunscreen.
>
That's probably the future of the activity, now that dc has been
completely overrun by bandos.
>
>Blaine T. Locheed
Rick Beckham
In article <19961211064...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
1980's. It then eroded into the present day travesty.
>Greg
>
B.K. DeLong
RHardi5005 (rhard...@aol.com) wrote:
: I don't quite understand where my buddy Hannum fits in with the Blue
: Knights? could you explain what you mean please?
I'm not sure what he means but I know Nick Angelis did some work with the
Blue Devils. I believe Nick specifically came to UMass because of Thom and
now is an instructor with the UMass Drumline himself.
--
B.K. DeLong ('98) Home Number: (413) 253-5699
bde...@oitunix.oit.umass.edu
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~bdelong
Matt Louis Little
Rick Beckham (rbec...@bnr.ca) wrote:
: Playing musical only adds if you're playing to begin with. You admit
: yourself two minutes of tacet at the beginning. How much more tacet
: from drum corps drumlines, not an imitation of a concert percussion
: ensemble. Two minutes of downtime at the very beginning of a show is
: pussy.
*****
How intellectual! You're right though. That contra quartet at the
beginning of the show really would have been enhanced by some ratamacues,
tajadas, and flam-drags. Man, if the quads could have only played check
patterns with accents on drums 1 and 3, with inner beats on drum 2 during
the mellophone solo in the Finale to Symphony #5, that would have made
that drumline good. Ooooooh! And backsticking! Where was all the d*mn
backsticking?!?! Their lack of drum-to-drum really cost them the drum
title, I think.
(sarcasm off)
Sheesh, man!
: an interpretation problem? I can recognize rudiments when I see them,
: and I admire lines that pound them out musically. What we're arguing
I can't believe you used "pound" and "musically" in the same
sentence, much less trying to make the two words complement each other.
Matt Little
Southwind Snareline '94-'95
Bluecoats Snareline '96
blaine thomas locheed
HANDS ACROSS THE DRUMLINE!!!
brian...@pas.org
I just have to reply to this one....
I would agree that Phantom's line in '91 was one of the
weaker ones. I remember one of the guys telling me some of the
problems that year. However, to say that arrangers arrange music to fit
the drum corp idium is completly false. Mainly, you're supposed to try
and capture the musical element as is written in the original. I think
drum corps arrangements should,in some way, be tailored towards the main
score and of course their has to be some alterations. But the point is
to go for music. Take '93 Star for example. From an arrangers
perspective, the music is somewhat sparse with the obvious modern
element. The drum parts should 'support' rather than have alot of ram.
Hannum wrote an incredible book for that show, and for anyone to say
that music was easy should be kicked in the head.
As far as this whole arguement of percussion chops vs.
marching chops...we're talking about two different levels. Percussion
chops is completly different than marching because of the differences in
controlling the stick. In my opinion, you can't compare the two. I know
alot of guys with incredible marching chops, but zero percussion/mallet
chops.
Also, I would would look to know the idiot who wrote that Blue
Knights was a Hardimon line with Hannum influence. I would very much
like to kick you in the head!! I know that Ralph quite frequently
reads RAMD and I'm sure he would be infuriated at that one. First, Ralph
and Hannum are two completly different schools of drumming. To say that
one has an influence over the other is a dumb ass!!! There...I've said
it....so sue me. An obvious rookie to the drum corp world. And to even
touch on Ralph's music or his drumlines is playing with fire. Ralph is
extremely personal on this subject so I'm going to stop now before I get
into trouble with him.
Well...there is my 4 cents...
BC
Ryan B. Johnson
: >In GENERAL, drums are not melodic instruments and therefore are meant to
: >enhance the overall musical picture. The best drum lines, to me, are the
: >ones that don't stand out. If they stand out, they are obviously doing
: >more than just enhancing the music.
Yea but from a drummers point of view, I hear the horns WAY to much, they
must not be enhancing the drums very well. Point being, this is drum AND
bugle corps. Who says you have to hear horns all the time? Who says
drums are not melodic? It just takes more work to make it happen. Take a
cadence for example, with the exception of snares, the other sections are
putting down melodic phrases (even cymbals can be different sizes and
pitches) what you hear depends on what you are listening for. If you just
write off drums as generally not being melodic you'll NEVER find a musical
line. Best example: Madison 95 when the corps split into three voices,
Basses w/ contras & baris, tenors w/ mellos, and snares w/ the sops.
I thought it was a perfect example of how a battery plays WITH the brass.
Even then you could still hear them and I don't think it made that section
any less musical.
A drummers view
Ryan J
Pioneer 93-94-95
Cochese472
Phantom 96= How many tap fives can we play in a row? Musical?
PLEASE!!!!!!COME ON NOW!!!!!!!!
Levi Boldt
Rick Beckham wrote:
> Sorry, drum corps percussion used to be about playing. Playing with
> balls which didn't preclude playing musically. We now see percussion
> 'ensembles' that are indistinguishable from concert percussion
> ensembles, and chops, my friend, are being sacrificed.
I'm not a percussionist, so I'm not going to argue too much with you on
this point. However, I have been in concert band a lot more recently
than you, and I assure you, it's not the same as drum corps. They're
leagues apart.
> I marched '80 and '81.
Where?
> *sigh* I guess growing up in bando corps has left you clueless to
> what the past was about.
First, you insulted my corps. I assume you intended the term "bando
corps" to be an insult at both the Colts and the Coachmen. This pisses
me off. You can insult me all you want, man to man, but leave my corps
out of this. I won't appreciate personal insults, but you'd better be
prepared if you want to drag my corps into this.
Secondly, you insulted me. I have made every effort to learn as much as
I can about the past of this activity. You may want to check out the
"Names New Players should revere" thread. In that thread, I was quite
vocal in my request for not only names on a list, but information about
the activity's past. It may be archived. If you knew the first thing
about me, you would know that I have a deep respect for the history of
the drum corps activity.
Yes, I was first introduced to corps via my high school band program.
That's not a bad thing, as marching band is, in many respects, a sister
activity to drum corps. They are not the same. Both have different
goals, but they are close to each other, whether you like it or not.
How much interest would there be in drum corps among people of eligible
age if it were not for high school marching band? Very little.
I resent your statement. I do not take kindly to being insulted
personally, but having my corps insulted drives me into a rage like
nothing else can. Just because people exist that are vocal and do not
share your opinion (and it is opinion, not fact) does not make them
nimrods who have no respect for the traditions of the activity. I await
your apology, not only to myself, but to the Colts and the Coachmen.
> It's obvious from your description of the past you don't know what
> you're talking about.
As someone who has watch hours and hours of tape, trying to understand
the history of the activity, drum corps has evolved from what I
described into the highly musical environment it is now. You may recall
that, after WW I, drum corps were started by the American Legion and the
VFW to fufill their charters to provide youth activity to local
communities. This was accomplished by giving young kids, who had never
played anything before, a bugle, drum, or flag. The activity was not
initially competitive, nor was it musical in any sense. These facets of
the activity were slowly added as the activity evolved into what it is
today. [History lesson over]
> I have NO problem
> with corps becoming more musical. I DO have a problem with players
> not learning to play in the DC arena, and the battery has been
> sacrificed. Scores are arranged to placate rudimental no-nothing
> judges who wouldn't know demand if it bit them on the ass.
And who chooses these judges? The members corps of DCI. Somehow I
doubt these corps would pay judges the amounts they do if they were
truly know-nothings.
> I want to see drumlines playing, not body sculpting, not prancing, not
> doing a 5 minute tacet, not playing simplistic parts to achieve a more
> 'concert hall' feel... At worst we sit through 11 minutes of 'Gee I
> should've went to get a hotdog'.
Well, I don't see you instructing a drumline. Therefore, I doubt it's
your place to say to those who are that they are doing a poor job. If
you _truly_ believe that today's youth are not getting a proper
rudimental eduacation, do something about it instead of just using up
bandwidth.
> >The activity has changed. Whether that's for better or worse
> >(personally, I think it's more musical and therefore better) is another
> >matter. But it has changed and there's no going back. Deal with it.
> Everything is cyclic, I'm sure there will be a resurgence of drumlines
> that play, it's just a question of when.
Hmm... I coulda sworn every drumline I heard played. Normally (at least
with a well-written book), the parts they play fit the music. Would a
return to a rudimental style of playing fit the music as well as the
current books? I don't know. As soon as I see your name as an
instructor, then I'll pay attention.
CHris Goodwin
Mr. Hardimon,
Sorry about the spelling. I have been a big fan of yours for a long
time. What I meant by that was this, I know that Rick has been very
influenced by the way that Star plays and the approach that they take.
Blue Knights(please correct me if I'm wrong) played that style last year
or something close to it. I was just talking about influences. Blue
Knights have always been musical since you have been writing for them. I
feel that You and Hannum are the best that Drum Corps has to offer in
regards to percussion and musicallity, there in. I hope that you did not
take this the wrong way.
Chris Goodwin
Magic 92
Lone Star Staff/Pit Arranger 95-96
Rick Beckham
In article <58n369$6t9$1...@thorn.cc.usm.edu>,
Matt Louis Little <mlli...@ocean.st.usm.edu> wrote:
>Rick Beckham (rbec...@bnr.ca) wrote:
>
*snip*
>
> How intellectual! You're right though. That contra quartet at the
>beginning of the show really would have been enhanced by some ratamacues,
>tajadas, and flam-drags. Man, if the quads could have only played check
>patterns with accents on drums 1 and 3, with inner beats on drum 2 during
>the mellophone solo in the Finale to Symphony #5, that would have made
>that drumline good. Ooooooh! And backsticking! Where was all the d*mn
>backsticking?!?! Their lack of drum-to-drum really cost them the drum
>title, I think.
> (sarcasm off)
>
be true to the original intent" concept a step further. Let's ground
the entire percussion section, use concert snares, throw out the tonal
bass, and hell why use quads? If fact let's ground the whole corps
and use proper instrumentation all around. Yeah, a symphonic competition
on a football field. That'll draw audiences. Nothing will make a crowd
stand a cheer like a well played adagio. And once judges figure out
there's nothing objective left to judge we'll just eliminate the
judging as well. Don't want to hurt the self esteem of the poor kiddies
who march. Why if two minutes of battery downtime is musical why don't we
do something really innovative, like 10 minutes of downtime. That
would work if we pick the right music.
Ok, now we've both had our absurdness, let's return to a conversation.
>: an interpretation problem? I can recognize rudiments when I see them,
>: and I admire lines that pound them out musically. What we're arguing
>
> I can't believe you used "pound" and "musically" in the same
>sentence, much less trying to make the two words complement each other.
>
I used pound because the guy before me did. Perhaps I should've placed
quotes around it for you to see.
>Matt Little
Rick Beckham
In article <32AFAE...@pilot.msu.edu>,
>this point. However, I have been in concert band a lot more recently
>than you, and I assure you, it's not the same as drum corps. They're
>leagues apart.
>
you saw an indoor percussion ensemble perform?
>> I marched '80 and '81.
>
>Where?
>
Garfield in '80, 27th Lancers in '81
*snip*
>First, you insulted my corps. I assume you intended the term "bando
>corps" to be an insult at both the Colts and the Coachmen. This pisses
Actually, it was a generalized comment, broad blanketing the activity.
And as one who tries to stay away from generalizations it was a
mistake.
>me off. You can insult me all you want, man to man, but leave my corps
>out of this. I won't appreciate personal insults, but you'd better be
>prepared if you want to drag my corps into this.
>
Can't say that I've seen the Colts or Coachmen recently. And no, I
wasn't attacking YOUR corps.
*snip*
>As someone who has watch hours and hours of tape, trying to understand
>the history of the activity, drum corps has evolved from what I
>described into the highly musical environment it is now. You may recall
>that, after WW I, drum corps were started by the American Legion and the
>VFW to fufill their charters to provide youth activity to local
>communities. This was accomplished by giving young kids, who had never
>played anything before, a bugle, drum, or flag. The activity was not
>initially competitive, nor was it musical in any sense. These facets of
>the activity were slowly added as the activity evolved into what it is
>today. [History lesson over]
>
You couldn't be more wrong. We have historical records of buglers and
timpani drummers fiercely competing on the field as early as the 1500's
in parts of Europe. During the American revolution so many drummers were
practicing where Congress convened that Congress actually passed a
resolution outlining just how close to legislative hall the drummers
could practice. During the Civil war as many as 40,000 young boys
enlisted in the service as drummers. The bugle replaced the fife during the
civil war, and after the civil war veteran musicians from the war
started competing. As early as 1888 there were five captions to be
won at a drum corps competition, best drill, best baton twirling,
best music, best overall show, and best individual snare drummer.
J.Burns Moore, who competed in 1898, was the "John L. Sullivan" of
rudimental drumming. His influence can be traced to several current
day advocates. Earl Sturtze, a "grandson" of Moore, shaped the
rudimental scene throughout the 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's, the most
prominent being the Son's of Liberty, Frank Arsenault, Mitch Markovitch,
and the infamous Bobby Thompson traditional grip. Sadly most corps
percussion lines today are assembly lines, learn the parts, we don't
have time to teach technique. In fact way too many shortcuts are taught
to get the student functioning, ie, bounce.
>
>And who chooses these judges? The members corps of DCI. Somehow I
>doubt these corps would pay judges the amounts they do if they were
>truly know-nothings.
>
Rudimental know-nothings. Want me to name names?
----------
>Well, I don't see you instructing a drumline. Therefore, I doubt it's
>your place to say to those who are that they are doing a poor job. If
>you _truly_ believe that today's youth are not getting a proper
>rudimental eduacation, do something about it instead of just using up
>bandwidth.
>
I am doing something about it. I'm training kids how to play. I'll
admit that I left the drumming scene for many years to start a family,
and boy was I horrified when I returned. Because of my family I
doubt I'll have time to take a corps position, but I do have a
part to play in this tragedy.
>
>Hmm... I coulda sworn every drumline I heard played. Normally (at least
Are you including the pit when you say drumline? Is your definition
of "playing" incluse simplistic parts?
>
>Levi Boldt
>
Greg Griffith
In article <58ju02$1...@crchh327.rich.bnr.ca> Rick Beckham,
rbec...@bnr.ca writes:
>Subject: Re: Musical Drumlines
Once again, Rick is right.
Of course, Rick is also very provocative, so let me try and translate:
Much is said about the "art" and "form" of drum corps. All art evolves;
if it doesn't, it ceases to be art and becomes simply a fad. Just as
painting and literature and music have evolved, so must drum corps. All
art is built on craft, and it is the CRAFT of drum corps that's suffering
today because of the poor turn the ART has taken.
We could write books on the right analogies to use, but let me offer
these: American cars, and popular music.
In the fifties, the American automobile acquired power. In the sixties,
it acquired diversity. While not the most refined machines by today's
standards, they were among the best in their day. Sure, you had some
Italian and German cars which were often better mannered, but for their
cost, American cars were the ones to beat. Then, in the seventies, Ford
and GM got complacent, figured that what had gotten them through the last
two decades would get them through the next two, and before we knew it we
had beasts like the Chevy Nova. The unholy alliance of
Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge/AMC gave us things like the Pacer and the
Gremlin, and as a result nearly imploded.
Meanwhile, it took the Japanese to show us that refinement - quality,
really - was about more than cupholders, superfluous gauges, and fake
woodgrain - it was about responsiveness, eliminating noise, and aging
well, among many other things.
In popular music, one sees clearly now that the big bands of the forties
and the jazz of the fifties tower above the schlock of the seventies and
much of the eighties. The point is that art - whether it's music,
automobile design, or drum corps - evolves, but not always in a linear
progression. Sometimes it takes ill-advised detours: in automobile
design, we had the Pinto; in music, we had the Starland Vocal Band. Of
course, in any golden age there are plenty of clunkers, but in these
cases, they weren't the exception - they were products of the times. One
must remember that at the zenith of the American automobile's golden age
we were subjected to the Edsel, but at the nadir of music's dreadful
seventies, we got such genius as Steely Dan.
Likewise, drum corps is in a phase where "musicality" is code for
"high-minded," and "entertainment" is code for acre-sized silk banners
and lame magic tricks. It's lost its roots: the kind of in-your-face
drums that Rick describes, and the horns of, say, the '74 Muchachos.
There's certainly a place for razzle-dazzle (I marched Bridgemen myself),
but it should come as lagniappe on an otherwise fundamentally sound show.
We goofed a lot at Bridgemen, but don't doubt for a second that we didn't
back it up with chops and licks.
Rick's finer point about concert-style percussion, I think, is this: it's
simply more difficult for seven or eight people to attack and release an
open roll than to buzz for sixteen counts. To opt for the buzz in this
tick-less era, then defend it on the grounds that it's more "musical," is
nonsense. Yes, there are times when the buzz is more appropriate, but
what it looks like to those of us who saw corps musicianship at its peak
is that lines are copping out, going for easier parts because, to the
extent nowadays that improperly executed parts are penalized, they're
simply harder for judges to justify not rewarding. And speaking for
myself, it reeks of cowardice: competition (which is supposed to be at
the heart of drum corps, lest we forget), used to be about laying it on
the line - "we're going to do these flam-drags followed by this open
roll, and if we don't hit it, then we take our ticks and move on." Now,
corps just wants to be pretty, and doesn't take any chances. "Going out
on the edge" is about executing difficult parts so well that it makes
your face sting, not about teaching the contras how to pirouette.
Greg Griffith
Mark Wimmer
On 11 Dec 1996 15:54:49 GMT, rbec...@bnr.ca (Rick Beckham) wrote:
> big snip <
>
> Let's see, at least two minutes of tacet time from the battery, possibly
> five. That's not playing. But is it correct to not play? I'm hearing
> conflicting arguments from you. "If it's musical not to play..blah blah".
>
> big snip <
I've been reading this thread and although I really disagree with your
opinion, it's your opinion and it's no big deal. I do have one
question for you though. What could the PR drumline have done during
the first two minutes of the Introduction to the Fourth Ballet Suite
that could have enhanced the effect of that music? The bass and tenor
players were playing in the pit so they were playing and enhancing the
music in a way that only pit instruments could do. The snares were
standing on the front sideline at the beginning and the whole drumline
entered at a big climax and made a much bigger impact then than if
they had been playing on their drums all along. The drumline then
spent a large majority of the remainder of the show playing. They
definitely did not tacet another three minutes This is a serious
question and I would appreciate any comments you may have on this
topic since I'm not a percussionist. I would appreciate, though if
you could be a little bit more respectful of other people in how you
reply to their _opinions_. People will tend to respect you more and
take your opinion more seriously if you do.
Mark Wimmer
1996 Phantom Regiment Baritone
P.S. If Dallas was the last time you saw us this past summer, then
you didn't see us at the level we were in August. We really got our
act together in August (as did every other corps) and improved our
show tremendously over mid-July.
Karl Engman
blaine you wacko.
hardimon's totally right. there is no such thing as "correct technique",
it only applies to the line you are marching with. cavie's technique is
no better or worse than BD's, SCV's, PR's, CBC's, Madison's, BK, anyone
(except for glassmen&PR, i.e lee beddis). as far as the musicality of today
compared to musicality of yesterday, there is little difference. perhaps
what the "old-timers" concieve as the current lines not playing loud
enough or not playing rudimentally, might just be their inabilities of
recognizing the very same things they played 20 years ago on drums that
are tuned infinitely higher than what used to be the norm (maybe i'm crazy
too, its just a thought). If you want to see old-style corps, go to a
senior show. if you want to see modern corps, go to a junior corps
show. do one, both, niether. the option is available to everyone. there
are as many people who love modern shows as there are people who love older
shows. what matters most is that the activity lives up to the purpose
for which it was created: as an educational youth activity.(yes i know it
was really started after wwII and all that stuff, but i mean this version
of drumcorps). as long as the marching members have some of the best
times of their lives, learn how to live and survive, learn the value of
hard work and the physical and emotional benefits of all of this, drum
corps has served its purpose. whether they were playing inverted
backsticked cheeses while standing on one foot and hopping forward at
200bps, or playing a standard march on a sling snare, the experience is
what ultimately counts. quit bickering and open your minds. sorry about
going off on a tangent!
Karl Engman
91-94 Guardsmen
95 Americanos
95-97? Wheaters
97? Phantom Regiment
ChiBoyinLA
These comments are not meant to be a flame on any specific corps, but
rather, to the activity as a whole.
There used to be a time, not very long ago, when the majority of people in
the activity would lambaste batteries that would tacet for minutes at a
time (when the lines would simply rest, carry some sort of prop, or do
some "body sculpting" garbage). Fans, former members, current members and
instructors all correctly pointed out that these particular corps were
"taking the easy way out" by simply not playing. Somewhere along the way,
however, the judges decided not to hold this lack of playing against these
drumlines, and instead would give credit for the limited minutes during a
show when the battery actually did play.
And look what we have now...virtually EVERY battery section in DCI will
not play for at least one entire tune during their show. Lines rarely
play solo sections more than 30 seconds in length. And the shows already
are 2-3 minutes shorter than they were 15 years ago.
IMHO, this is wrong.
IMHO, this is a cop-out.
Sure, I agree that for the sake of musicality the battery should NOT play
during some tunes. In many current drum corps charts it would be stupid
for an arranger to throw in a bucketful of flam-drags and cheeses.
The problem is that too many current drum corps repetoires include musical
selections for which battery percussion parts are simply inappropriate.
Simply put, drum corps show designers are CHOOSING music that discourages
traditional rudimental drumming.
THAT is the cop-out. And, unfortunately, the directors and judging
community have allowed it to become standard practice.
Hey, if your corps only wants to drum for 5-6 minutes of the show, that's
your perogative - but that decision should be looked upon disfavorably by
the score sheets. If you play 2-3 minutes less than another line, I just
can't see how the demand element of the scores can be in the same
ballpark.
A line that is not playing for 1 minute is NOT musical - it is simply NOT
PLAYING!
Just my humble opinions.
P.S. And the corps I marched with is guilty of this, too.
Levi Boldt
Rick Beckham wrote:
> >I'm not a percussionist, so I'm not going to argue too much with you on
> >this point. However, I have been in concert band a lot more recently
> >than you, and I assure you, it's not the same as drum corps. They're
> >leagues apart.
> You're not a percussionist yet you argue the point. When was the last time
> you saw an indoor percussion ensemble perform?
I have ears, and I consider myself to be a musician. One needs not be a
percussionist to tell that a difference exists between corps percussion
parts and concert band parts.
> >First, you insulted my corps...
> Actually, it was a generalized comment, broad blanketing the activity.
> And as one who tries to stay away from generalizations it was a
> mistake.
> Can't say that I've seen the Colts or Coachmen recently. And no, I
> wasn't attacking YOUR corps.
All right. I had an itchy trigger finger on that flamethrower...
[History stuff snipped]
I stand corrected, then.
> Sadly most corps
> percussion lines today are assembly lines, learn the parts, we don't
> have time to teach technique. In fact way too many shortcuts are taught
> to get the student functioning, ie, bounce.
I don't know about the actual mechanics of everything they do, but I do
know that corps work endlessly on technique, as well as musicality and
cleanliness. YOu obviously haven't gone and watched a drumline rehearse
lately.
> >And who chooses these judges? The members corps of DCI. Somehow I
> >doubt these corps would pay judges the amounts they do if they were
> >truly know-nothings.
> Rudimental know-nothings. Want me to name names?
Oh, that's exactly what this newsgroup needs! Let's not just make
blanket statements about the current state of the activity. Let's throw
in some personal attacks as well! Ummm... no. [sarcasm off]
> Are you including the pit when you say drumline?
When I use the term "drumline" I am referring to the battery. When I
say "percussion" I am referring to both the battery and the pit.
> Is your definition of "playing" include simplistic parts?
I wouldn't know a complex part from a simplistic part if it jumped up
and bite me in the ass! I do know, however, that the people who do the
drumming often consider their parts to be quite complex, as do the
people who write their parts. I'll take their word for. It sounds
pretty complex to me, but I couldn't do a paradiddle to save my life.
Levi Boldt
Rick Beckham wrote:
> That's probably the future of the activity, now that dc has been
> completely overrun by bandos.
If it wasn't for those bandos, the activity wouldn't exist. Most
members are first exposed to drum corps through high school marching
band. Most members are trained in basic marching and playing in band.
Most drum corps audiences consist of a large percentage of bandos.
Without marching band, most people would have the brains (actually,
experience) to figure out whether something was good or not. Don't bite
the hand that feeds you.
Latinhandz
Hey fellow drummers and percussionist, just try to remember something
extremely important...........Theres plenty of room for every style, every
approach,every interpretation, and everybody...all styles and approaches
have been rewarded in the past,I feel its been ok, so, lets just continue
on. There is no note or a phrase (musical or rudimental) that hasn't been
played already, so continue to create within the very large parameters and
expect falls, as well as pay offs......good luck to all!!!!!!!!!!
Ralph Hardimon
you cant argue with Uncle Ralphy
or you might get stung
Tony
93-94 freelancers
95-96 scv
RHardi5005
no I didn't take anything wrong Chris, just curiousity slipping in.
Take care and happy holidays!!!
Ralph
Rick Beckham
In article <32afa472...@news.ionet.net>,
Mark Wimmer <wim...@okstate.edu> wrote:
>On 11 Dec 1996 15:54:49 GMT, rbec...@bnr.ca (Rick Beckham) wrote:
>
>I've been reading this thread and although I really disagree with your
>opinion, it's your opinion and it's no big deal. I do have one
>question for you though. What could the PR drumline have done during
>the first two minutes of the Introduction to the Fourth Ballet Suite
>that could have enhanced the effect of that music? The bass and tenor
You still don't get it. Field percussion and buglers were equally
important throughout most of dc history. The drums did not provide
an effect for the music, they played the music. They were just as
important as the buglers. Drum corps drumming evolved separately
from the indoor concert drumming; field drumming was competitive
hence more playing was involved, field drumming was equally
important in conveying emotions to the crowd (comparatively like
a sporting event). The last ten or so years we have seen field
percussion try to emulate concert percussion by providing "effects"
for the music, and as a result the judging has become more subjective
than ever ("snares, you're too busy hear", "too loud", "more phrasing
on the triangle", all comments from judges that are a matter of
opinion). The whole movement of field percussion to become a
concert ensemble is even more ridiculous when we consider the
dichotomy of "trying to arrange the percussion closer to the intent
of the composer" while marching around on a field, sound shifting
from one side to the other, playing on instruments that don't even
come close to the composer's instrumentation, using heads that are
cranked into the stratosphere, the sound dying before it reaches
the ears of the intended audience.
>players were playing in the pit so they were playing and enhancing the
>music in a way that only pit instruments could do. The snares were
>standing on the front sideline at the beginning and the whole drumline
>entered at a big climax and made a much bigger impact then than if
What is your definitions of climax and impact? I never felt a tremor
or wetness ;). Seriously, I waited and waited for something to
move me from the drumline. The horns came closer to moving me, that's
saying a lot since I really go to watch the drummers.
>they had been playing on their drums all along. The drumline then
>spent a large majority of the remainder of the show playing. They
>definitely did not tacet another three minutes This is a serious
Maybe 5 minutes was an over extension. Anyone care to time PR's
battery's downtime from '96?
>Mark Wimmer
>1996 Phantom Regiment Baritone
>
>P.S. If Dallas was the last time you saw us this past summer, then
>you didn't see us at the level we were in August. We really got our
Good. I'm glad to hear corps still make an improvement from
July to August. But were parts added? Or are we just talking
improvement in execution?
Rick Beckham
In article <32B129...@pilot.msu.edu>,
Is that a fact? Well, thanks for enlightening me. Levi, the dc activity
existed for many many many years without bandos. And I suspect it
would exist without them now. When I use the term bando I am not
referring to someone who came from a band. I marched in bands before
I went to dc. I'm referring to people who try to merge corps and
bands into the same activity. And as another history lesson, the
years I marched had a much smaller band student ratio. So, the
activity existed in times where band students steered clear of dc.
SplntrGrp
Two thoughts and a jump into the middle...
1. In the old days, when we had the legendary drum solo (or solos, one
right after opener and the other right before the closer), the hornlines
didn't play, or offered minimal musical support. No one complained then
that the hornlines were pussying out. They just dug the drum work.
2. In 85, Garfield played "Make our Garden Grow" and supported the
arrangement right after the opening solo with traditional battery
instruments. The intrusion of the snare and bass lines at that point of
the piece made (and still does today) the skin crawl. In 1990, CBC played
"Somewhere" without the battery support, and the piece was as effective as
is imaginable. It was musically way ahead of the older approach to the
question, and provided one of the undisputed musical highlights of the
year.
Just 'cause most of us drummers (past and present) CAN play our nuts or
ovaries off, it doesn't mean that we HAVE to. Sometimes, keeping the
battery quiet is the best choice. As long as the crowd gets to see your
line play hard at one point or another, who cares? One of the reasons why
I love the Devils' 90 show more every time I see it - appropriate tacet
time and a killer drum feature.
Balance people, balance...
Matt
Knamaky
>>>there is no such thing as "correct technique",
it only applies to the line you are marching with. cavie's technique is
no better or worse than BD's, SCV's, PR's, CBC's, Madison's, BK, anyone
(except for glassmen&PR, i.e lee beddis).<<<
What do you mean by this last statement in parenthesis?
Kevin Namaky
Glassmen '96
"Life is one really long line of shit.
How well you do depends on how well you can shovel it!"-Kevin Namaky
"Drum Corps: For those who know, no explanation is needed. for those who don't, no explanation is possible!"-Ralph Biggs
Knamaky
>>>The problem is that too many current drum corps repetoires include
musical
selections for which battery percussion parts are simply inappropriate.
Simply put, drum corps show designers are CHOOSING music that discourages
traditional rudimental drumming.<<<
Right On!!!!
olde...@caa.mrs.umn.edu
> There used to be a time, not very long ago, when the majority of people in
> the activity would lambaste batteries that would tacet for minutes at a
> time (when the lines would simply rest, carry some sort of prop, or do
> some "body sculpting" garbage). Fans, former members, current members and
> instructors all correctly pointed out that these particular corps were
> "taking the easy way out" by simply not playing. Somewhere along the way,
> however, the judges decided not to hold this lack of playing against these
> drumlines, and instead would give credit for the limited minutes during a
> show when the battery actually did play.
>
> And look what we have now...virtually EVERY battery section in DCI will
> not play for at least one entire tune during their show. Lines rarely
> play solo sections more than 30 seconds in length. And the shows already
> are 2-3 minutes shorter than they were 15 years ago.
>
> IMHO, this is wrong.
> IMHO, this is a cop-out.
>
> Sure, I agree that for the sake of musicality the battery should NOT play
> during some tunes. In many current drum corps charts it would be stupid
> for an arranger to throw in a bucketful of flam-drags and cheeses.
>
> The problem is that too many current drum corps repetoires include musical
> selections for which battery percussion parts are simply inappropriate.
> Simply put, drum corps show designers are CHOOSING music that discourages
> traditional rudimental drumming.
>
> THAT is the cop-out. And, unfortunately, the directors and judging
> community have allowed it to become standard practice.
>
> Hey, if your corps only wants to drum for 5-6 minutes of the show, that's
> your perogative - but that decision should be looked upon disfavorably by
> the score sheets. If you play 2-3 minutes less than another line, I just
> can't see how the demand element of the scores can be in the same
> ballpark.
>
> A line that is not playing for 1 minute is NOT musical - it is simply NOT
> PLAYING!
Before I read this I was going to get pissed and write something about
beating the shit of drums, but you're right, lines that don't play aren't
being musical. The directors, show designers, and judges have allowed
this happen. The same argument could be made in the others aspects of
corps' shows such as the Cadets not marching during Swing Swing Swing or
Star not playing much in 93, but neither of these instances made the
respective show bad. In fact, it could be argued that a corps makes up
for down time by doing some major asskicking in another segment of the show.
I still resent the statement that Phantom's percussion section was weak
in 96. Maybe they don't beat the shit out of their instruments with rim
shot after rim shot after rim shot, but based on a scoring system of
building up points I believe they make more music than most other lines
in DCI.
Michael Oldemeyer
Phantom Regiment 94,6
euphonium
btw, if anyone wants to reply to me they'll have to send it to my private
e-mail account because as of now, i'm done with finals and will not be
back to school until jan 5
Karl Engman
I mean that, technically speaking, glassmen will probably now have a very
similar, if not exactly the same technique as Phantom. This is because
Lee Beddis and Frankie Chapple are more likely to teach the styles that
they are used to playing with, and seeing as they were both Phantom
instructors, the technique would follow them to Glassmen (I'm making the
assumption that JJ Pipitone and the new Phantom perc. staff members are
making no significant technique changes). This correlation only applies
to this coming year, not any Glassmen lines of the past.
See ya at wheaters!
-Karl
On 13 Dec 1996, Knamaky wrote:
> >>>there is no such thing as "correct technique",
> it only applies to the line you are marching with. cavie's technique is
> no better or worse than BD's, SCV's, PR's, CBC's, Madison's, BK, anyone
> (except for glassmen&PR, i.e lee beddis).<<<
>
> What do you mean by this last statement in parenthesis?
>
>
>
Ace PH
I'm in the minority that thinks that drumlines today are NOT playing junk.
As a professional drummer, I get paid to ACCOMPANY singers and melodic
instrumentalists, not to step on them. There is the cadre who deems
drumlines as musically important as the brass. T'ain't so, in my book.
Those who want an entire drum book based on the 26 original rudiments
have, to me, a warped view of the entire picture. Listen to 60s drum
corps, and you'll hear godawful ratamacues and paradiddles bollixing up
pretty ballads--flat too "drummy."
I though Cav's drumline, oh that pit was delightful this year; I
appreciate Devil's' ferocity, Regiment's subtlety, Cadets' ability to push
members to new heights.
Per usual, this thread seems to reek of the shopworn "drum corps' golden
days were when *I* marched" syndrome.
Jest a fifth of an ol' dime.
Ace Holleran
DRUM CORPS FAN
In article <32B129...@pilot.msu.edu>, Levi Boldt <bold...@pilot.msu.edu> writes:
>Rick Beckham wrote:
>
>> That's probably the future of the activity, now that dc has been
>> completely overrun by bandos.
>
>band. Most members are trained in basic marching and playing in band.
>Most drum corps audiences consist of a large percentage of bandos.
>Without marching band, most people would have the brains (actually,
>experience) to figure out whether something was good or not. Don't bite
>the hand that feeds you.
>
>--
>
>Levi Boldt
>
>Professorial Assistant
>
>'94 Coachmen, '95-'96 Colts
>http://pilot.msu.edu/~boldtlev
>
> [] "He came to pay a debt He did not owe
> [] because we owed a debt we could not pay."
>[][][][][] -anonymous
> []
> [] "He is no fool who gives what he cannot
> [] hope to keep to gain what he cannot lose."
> [] -Jim Elliot
> []
> [] "If Christ be God and died for me, then
> there is no sacrifice too great for me to
> make for Him."
> -C.T. Studd
>
> "That's the thing with faith... if you don't
> have it, you don't understand, but if you
> do have it, no explanations are necessary."
> -anonymous
totally against drum corps..... why you ask? because the few of us who watch
and participate in drum corps show them this videotape of a high quality show
(much better than they put in in marching band).... automatically they are
against it.... I beleive that the answer is somewhere in the middle like the
quote says (something like this)
"Drum corps, for people who understand no explanation is necessary"
Scott
Spartans 96'
tubu...@aol.com
In article <58lfta$q...@rock.me>, rbjo...@mtu.edu (Ryan B. Johnson)
writes:
> If you just
>write off drums as generally not being melodic you'll NEVER find a
musical
>line. Best example: Madison 95 when the corps split into three voices,
>Basses w/ contras & baris, tenors w/ mellos, and snares w/ the sops.
>I thought it was a perfect example of how a battery plays WITH the brass.
>Even then you could still hear them and I don't think it made that
section
>any less musical.
>
>A drummers view
>Ryan J
>Pioneer 93-94-95
>
>
Amen, brother.
As a tuba player I can totally agree with you. Right now I do alot of
gigs with a jazz band that uses tuba as the bass instead of e-bass or bass
fiddle.
If the drummer and I aren't grooving, it makes a 4hour gig seem like 4
days.
On the other hand, if the drummer and I are communicating musically and
able to work together, it can really groove and it makes the ENTIRE
ensemble sound much, much better. This principle applies in ANY ensemble
where percussion has an integral part.
In orchestral performance, if the timp player is out to lunch, it can
make my job really difficult too, or vice versa. In many works, it is the
subltle things that can make or break an ensemble -- or take it that extra
step from good to great, or great to stellar.
And of course, the same thing applies in drum corps. In BD the
contras were often responsible for keeping time. In fact, I remember a
couple of times when we actually had sectionals with the drumline to
tighten the groove and learn how to work together. It seemed as we were
the ones to bridge the gap between the hornline and the drumline. It
worked when everyone worked together and thought as one unit -- versus
acting as separate ensembles.
I have always had a fondness for percussion that is truly musical. Every
drum corps has its own style of arranging and technique. That is what
makes it cool. I will say that in many cases the percussion playing in the
drum and bugle corps activity as a whole is the most virtuosic part of
all.
Some of it truly does amaze me. I remeber watching in awe as I
watched the 90 Cadets warm up soewhere out east -- Absolutely tickless,
and musical -- it was quite an inspiration. Or hearing the percussion
writing of some of the Cavalier shows in recent years. I really have dug
some of Blue Knights percussion writing too -- talk about innovation and
musicality!!! There are many, many more to mention -- most of the top 6
or 7 corps' percussion have so much to say musically. I was also amazed by
Thom Hannum's parts for BT's Pictures of an Ex. I engraved/edited them
for band publication. I had never seen percussion intricacies so closely
before... I was AMAZED!! It was quite a learning experience for me to
see such musicality in percussion -- right there, on the page! The
textures, the instruments that he added -- the sound plates and all.
Really cool. I learned soo much.
One of the most musical performances I have ever heard was hearing Elvin
Jones repeat melodic ideas on his drum set that the horn players would
play and back again. It floored me! It was such communication...such
musicality.
Musicality it NOT just a soprano line honking out some dumb ol' melody.
Musicality IS nuance, communication, interaction, innovation, and taste
between all parts of the ensemble.
joe exley
Greg Griffith
In article <32AFAE...@pilot.msu.edu> Levi Boldt,
bold...@pilot.msu.edu writes:
>First, you insulted my corps.<snip> This pisses
>me off. You can insult me all you want, man to man, but leave my corps
>out of this. I won't appreciate personal insults, but you'd better be
>prepared if you want to drag my corps into this.
>I resent your statement. I do not take kindly to being insulted
>personally, but having my corps insulted drives me into a rage like
>nothing else can.
Careful, Levi - have you ever met Rick? I'd strongly suggest that you
breathe into a paper bag for a while, and not challenge the man
physically. Either that, or start a REAL rigorous workout plan...
>I await
>your apology, not only to myself, but to the Colts and the Coachmen.
Don't hold your breath (and hang on to that bag). Besides, from your
signature, you should know that nothing feeds indignation like
righteousness...
Greg Griffith
cher...@aol.com
Musical drumlines?
1972 27th Lancers.-Jim Buckley arranger
1960's Boston Crusaders- Gerry Shellmer arranger
END OF CONVERSATION
Eric
In article <32AFAE...@pilot.msu.edu>, bold...@pilot.msu.edu says...
>Rick Beckham wrote:
>> *sigh* I guess growing up in bando corps has left you clueless to
>> what the past was about.
[Live, in his free time, says...]
>First, you insulted my corps. I assume you intended the term "bando
>corps" to be an insult at both the Colts and the Coachmen. This pisses
>me off. You can insult me all you want, man to man, but leave my corps
>out of this. I won't appreciate personal insults, but you'd better be
>prepared if you want to drag my corps into this.
I don't have anything to add to this. I just wanted to re-quote this
statement to make sure more people got a chance to read it. Nothing
against the Colts or Coachmen (whom I have both enjoyed). Rick, be
careful, Live is a real wolverine!
[]
[][][][][] "The American Cancer Society needs your
[] support. Your donations are appreciated.
[][][][][] -anonymous
[]
[] "Is that the Cancer Society logo? I thought
[] it was a telephone pole."
[] -Sam Elliot
[]
[] "Nothing against organized religion or the phone
company. I'm just looking for a parody to
substitute for Evil's 80 line signature. Oh,
and nothing against the Cancer Society either."
-E.L. Stud
Eric Landis
YKHIG
|X|
brian...@pas.org
THANKS RALPH AND KARL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You guys are COMPLETLY CORRECT!!!!!!!!!
Whatever the circumstance...whosever drums you're playing
with...whatever corps you're with...the experience is what counts!!!!!
there's my emotional statement for today..:)
BC
Joerg Brandt
Nice answer
Joerg Brandt
Program Coordinator, Starriders D&BC, Germany