Whats wrong? Easy....George Hopkins
SILVERDOTS
wrong* by members and alumni. The problem is the radical/liberal philosophies
of George Hopkins which have infested the *activity* since the early 1980's.
The man is a total liberal loser and has taken the *activity* with it into
absurdity.
1. George has stated *we are for the kids*. The clients are not the kids.
You are not in the education business. You are in the entertainment business.
No ticket sales, no drum corps. Hopkins has moved away from trying to sell
*corps* by selling *band* hoping tax payers will soon foot the bill.
"We ought to know where our focus should be with so many bands in the United
States"
Hence, Bb, everyones a *designer*, everyone needs a paycheck and the kids are
manipulated to do it and *be part of the team* because the designer is a star
talent.
His dear friend - Neil Larivee (WGI board and Vic Firth Educational Director)
stated to me 'WE ARE EDUCATORS"
George and his wanna-bees are selling education, not the kids talents. With
them the kids dont need talent. All they need to do is *try*. In business
trying is not good enough and the product corps have now is not unique because
of it. It is too close to the talent pool of *marching band* and has no unique
character especially in percussion where the kids can no longer perform at high
levels of demand in the batteries. (Demand was wiped from the sheets by George
Hopkins)
2. Hopkins and his followers are all hypocrites.
"Competition is the least of our worries." Neil Larivee ; Hopkins clone.
"I am no fan of competition" George Hopkins
These people spout this to corps and band directors who ARE INVOLVED IN
COMPETITION. They call it the *SUMMER MUSIC GAMES* and *WINTER OLYMPICS* at
WGI. What the hell? People in competition who hate competition. Its asinine.
You cant teach *kids* with such a rotten example of leadership Hopkins. The
real world competes.
3. Artistic Child Molestation
"WE ARE EDUCATORS" say Hopkins and Larivee.
Tell me what the *kids* you so love are learning from your *designers* and
*design judges* about art. Ive been to their clinics and as a professional
artist I have to tell you they are the sorriest bunch of know-nothings I have
ever witnessed. What you have is someone who doesnt know a thing about
*design* hiring *designers* who dont know a thing about design "teaching" young
kids because they are the only people these losers can manipulate or sell their
low level of talent to. Its educational molestation at its finest. A fraud.
The result is drum lines that can no longer play at a good enough technical
level to compete in the entertainment business and shows so cut up and
ridiculous that alumni stay away. (But without competition....its a 98.7)
If you disagree there George, that bet I have with you about trading 5 of my
art pieces for 5 samples of your *designers* and *judges* portfolios is still
on. Why do you run from it? You run because youre no educator. I can teach
*art*. You and your hired art molesters cant teach so you manipulate these
kids into believing they should sacrifice their talents and COMPETITION so the
designers can compete (with their corps dues yet) judged by human idiots that
never took an art class. Put up or shut up Hopkins. Lets see how artistically
educational your product is. Get Larivee in on this too. Two fools make for
more fun. All the *perspective* *color theory* color harmony* bullcrap at the
clinics the past 15 years has resulted in inferior designs and an inferior
product, taught by people who cant teach art. (Yet DCI proclaims them as
*genius*)
4. Liberal know-nothing judging based on a hatered of competition.
'WE ARE POPULAR. WE ARE EDUCATORS. THOSE KIDS WERE SO EMOTIONAL AFTER THEIR
SHOW." NEIL LARIVEE
Hey George.....Larivee was talking at PAS last year about the WGI unit that
shot a little girl in the back of the head for *effect* at the end of their
show.
It was shock art.......the lowest form of creativity and should tell everyone
the level WGI/DCI/BOA has sunk to in trying to get childrens time and their
parents money. That was a gun there George. Rosie agree with that?
Shooting kids in the back of the head for points is the philosophical result of
following hypocritical non-competitors into absurdity.
The result in percussion contests is that kids that cant play well at all win
by powdering their faces and crying for the judges. Its a farce brought to
you by George Hopkins non-competitive non-measurement competitions.
5. Measurement.
Real competitions have units of measurement and deductions for similar elements
if not exact elements. Objective measurement allows intelligent comparisons of
the competitors. Hopkins and Larivee say their can be no comparisons.
Anything goes. Their method of adjudicating is *emotion*.
In electricity you have ohms, amperage and volts. In weights and measures you
have kips pounds, grams, feet, meters, inches......in objective drum corps
adjudication you have pitch, angle, speed , distance, direction to use as a
base for the KIDS to compete against each other. George gives us *emotion*
What is the unit of measurement in emotion?
None. No judging. Liberal subjective opinion....no FACTS to base comparisons
on. So the best kids cant win. At PAS snare finals last year I saw no one
that could break down a double stroke roll. It was pathetically bad. With no
comparisons on the sheets, the result is no molding of talent. Why work hard
if youre not the ones being judged? Why practice if the score sheets say there
is nothing to practice? Add to this that the 2 judges of that contest had their
1st place and 9th place (last) people totally reversed. This is the result of a
lack of any national standards destoyed by liberal ethics of George Hopkins.
This can only happen when the philosophy of the score sheets follows George
Hopkins and Neil Larivees - any Garfield liberal clones - morals of
non-competiton non-measurement competitions. Where nothing can be judged
objectively because the rules have all been changed to favor the losers; where
comparison is a fraud and emotional whim rules the day. Too bad they dont do
this in the real olympics eh George? But then again they are selling real
competiton George....something you destroyed to make a fast buck.
George"The responsibility we have to the activity is to support and care for
young people."
Since when are you all these kids parents? If you want to *support kids* get
Mikey Cesario away from them and let the kids have their score sheets back so
they dont have to be used by asinine visual people who cant pass a basic art
class. Care for? You sound like a sick liberal politician using the kid-card
to force national insurance down our throats. Thom Hannum at $1000 for a week
aint responsible. The guy cant even play a drum. Hype over reality.
George "There is no wrong way to do it" (drum corps)
You are THE example of how to do it wrong fool. Any discipline has many ways
to fail. Look at you run from marketing the kids talents into marketing
Cesario and his design fools to booster clubs. (That is *for the kids?)
I can tell you there are many ways to *do* a painting or design wrong. Talent
eliminates many bad choices as does a good education. This saves you time and
money. A good business discipline. Just look at DCI shows today and see why
you are going out of business.
George "There are simply many paths to the same end. The end...happy kids."
Sounds like your Erhard Seminar Trainging coming back to haunt you here George.
Man you sound just like that guy on those brainwashing tapes.
If you stude a little quantum mechanics youll find that each decision has
consequences and changes the *end*. When the *kids* realize they are not the
focus of the score sheets, that they havtwo been artistically abused by your
*designers* in time and money for a good 2 decades now........when they realize
they are learning nothing about art/design from your score sheets...... and
the percussion batteries realize they are running around with 25 pounds of
equipment on the satiate a fool in the box with no art
training......sacrificing their talent silent at the back of the field for
Mikey Cesarios and fools like him....I dont think the end will happy. The kids
need to realize what you have done here. The parents and booster clubs need to
know what you have done. The sooner the better.
Ken Mazur
IMENSKYBRIG
would be contest sponsers interested DCI started for a reason and should end or
change for a reason A DRUM CORPS LOVER
Mike
Ken, I hope I never piss you off.
The Other Mike...................
PhD in BS
Proud member of the Old Pharts Brigade.......
Drum n Bass
you all bitch and moan too much.
go get your own drum corps and do something about it if it bothers you so
much.
start a new cicut where everyone plays 5 stroke rolls and ratamacues for 12
minutes and leave us alone.
D+B
"SILVERDOTS" <silve...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010825004440...@mb-cs.aol.com...
"a bunch of whiny drivel..."
SoCalCorpsVet
>start a new cicut where everyone plays 5 stroke rolls and ratamacues for 12
>minutes and leave us alone.
Since you brought it up, I'd like to see a modern drum line that could do
5-stroke rolls and ratamacues for 12 minutes. Wanna volunteer?
Will
Mike
>
>you all bitch and moan too much.
>
>go get your own drum corps and do something about it if it bothers you so
>much.
>
>start a new cicut where everyone plays 5 stroke rolls and ratamacues for 12
>minutes and leave us alone.
>
>D+B
>
>
>
Hey dumbass, WE were here FIRST
CA24K
stand in the middle of BFE, Alabama at 12 o'clock noon in 110 degree weather,
with 100% humidity, running back to sets, cleaning an opener (tempo 208, 220
at finals), because some guy in a green shirt , with less creativeness than a
chick pea( hey I like chick peas), says that you need to change things, but he
has only seen your show once?? How about getting to finals and having your
corp( suncoast '94) get screwed, because the guy who runs the divisionhas a son
who runs a corp in that division? How about the pleasure of, at retreat,playing
yourself off the feild ('Greatest Love' never sounded better) and having
everyone on the feild crying because they know they have been Screwed? How
about making people from the other corps on the feild cry at the sight and
sound of knowing that if judged correctly, they wouldn't be where they are?
Have you ever had a percussion judge scream " TASTY! OH, THAT IS SOOOOO TASTY!
I think I'm gonna..... Well you know!" and still lose to a third rate corp with
no identity? By the way our gaurd won Prelims and still we get no respect.
The best moment of the summer came at a show that had Cadets, Phantom,Madison
and some others, and as the bassline is warming up, the guys from Phantom come
and check us out. While they stood there in awe, all you heard was " Holy Shit,
they're playing some awesome shit!!! Jesus Christ; glad they are not in our
division"
'Nuff said,
BIG Al
From: "Drum n Bass" nbmo...@home.com
shut up.
you all bitch and moan too much.
start a new cicut where everyone plays 5 stroke rolls and ratamacues for 12
minutes and leave us alone.
D+B
"SILVERDOTS" <silve...@aol.com> wrote
"a bunch of whiny drivel..."
Nespy
wait a minute...I'm wrong.
--
Chip Torgerson
ch...@nespy.com
"CA24K" <ca...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010825065243...@mb-fo.aol.com...
Benny
negativity certainly isnt helping the activity.
Lets face it, George Hopkins is the scapegoat for "all that is wrong with DCI
today" whether he actually had anything to do with it or not. Ken points the
Bb finger at George when that was a DAVE GIBBS/ BLUE DEVILS proposal. But
hell, lets blame him anyway, right? its easier that way... Im sorry, but i
think George Hopkins gets a lot of unneccessary negativity aimed at him. Do i
agree with everything he says? no, but i still respect his opinions. IMO he
is a great man in drum corps. Overall since the 80's, his corps has
entertained me the most of any and none have had consistency as great as his.
And what about drum corps not being about education but about
entertainment? Drum corps is a vehicle for both, but the most important people
in drum corps are the kids that are IN THE DRUM CORPS! not those of us who sit
on our asses and watch. Without the kids, there is no drum corps. They join
for a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to spend a summer with other awesome
people, to have fun, and to learn!
As far as the kids not needing talent anymore...ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! pull
out a video tape of any pre 1990 year and tell me that the drill is harder than
what they are pulling off today. not only to march that but to play to! Thats
just downright degrading to the kids to even suggest that. If kids felt that
they were being abused and that their talents were being wasted, why would they
continue to flock back every year? Oh wait, is this part of your Hopkins
brainwashing conpsiracy? Take a number and get in line behind the Madison
people....
.> resulted in inferior designs and an inferior
>product, taught by people who cant teach art.
all subjective and opinon. are we gonna get some facts with all this opinion?
i think that show design today is spectacular, exciting, and very intriguing!
Oops i shouldnt have said that....i am going to be blacklisted now....
i just want to say that members of corps never cease to amaze me (no matter
what corps or whether i like the show or not....just them doing it is good
enough for me!). I LOVE DRUM CORPS AND THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE IT HAPPEN! im
proud to be part of this activity!!!
Benny
Highland HS '96-'00
Riverside CC '00-??
CopperStar '01
Benny
and that means what? that youre better or more important than anyone else?
Terri Dittrich
"Mike" <stard...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
So? They are here NOW.
>
> Hey dumbass, WE were here FIRST
>
>
> The Other Mike...................
> PhD in BS
> Proud member of the Old Pharts Brigade.......
-Terri
>
Stefanie Kressaty
"Benny" <scvb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010825072420...@mb-mk.aol.com...
> Without the kids, there is no drum corps.
> Benny
> Highland HS '96-'00
> Riverside CC '00-??
> CopperStar '01
>
I'm not going to flame you because I generally agree with what you said.
But one thing MUST be noted:
YES Kids are why this activity is so great.. but they need us (the ones in
the stands) as much as we need them.
And there WOULD be drum corps without kids. It's called Senior Corps. No
age limits.. Drum Corps International is not the only vehicle for this
activity. We use DCI as a substitute for the words Drum Corps (like Xerox
is used for copiers).. and the truth is DCI is only a circuit.
The question I have is.. are WE driving the "car" or is IT driving US?
I think I prefer the former. No matter how much they like to disagree, the
fans ARE a part of drum corps. If we go, they go.
Stefanie
Drum n Bass
eventually became extinct when they could not adapt to their environments.
its called evolution, and it is inevitable.
while today's drum corps is definitly not the same as it was "back in the
day" - there are still many many kids getting many many great experiences
from marching drum corps.
so just clap if you like it, or don't if you don't.
"Mike" <stard...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20010825033052...@mb-fo.aol.com...
drum corps fan
now!
bill
"SILVERDOTS" <silve...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010825004440...@mb-cs.aol.com...
Stefanie Kressaty
I once had a hell of a lot of respect for you. I even sort of agree with
some of the things you say. But please, unless you are willing to get up
and go DO something about it, stop ranting.
It's TIRING to see you spout the same rhetoric again and again and again
while expecting SOMEONE ELSE to do something about what you want changed.
You are always asking Hopkins to change his ways (demanding is more like
it). Is this because you KNOW he won't? Is this so that you can be the
"Paul Revere" of drum corps who spent all his time running around alerting
people to the problem??
Well okay, I admit the difference is clear.
Paul Revere went on to actually fight in the revolution after he rode around
warning people.
Your message is "out" on RAMD. Why don't you go to the rules congress? Why
don't you ask for some time on the agenda to PROPOSE an ACTUAL IDEA? Better
yet.. why don't you get in contact with a couple of member corps directors
and see if you can convince one or more of them to champion your cause!?
Be creative (since you claim you are) and find a way to get your message out
to the REST of the activity!
Stefanie
"SILVERDOTS" <silve...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010825004440...@mb-cs.aol.com...
> I see Hopkins is shooting off his mouth on RAMD again. Lots of posts on
*whats
> wrong* by members and alumni.
> rant rant rant rant rant rant rant
B.W.
> 'WE ARE POPULAR. WE ARE EDUCATORS. THOSE KIDS WERE SO EMOTIONAL AFTER THEIR
> SHOW." NEIL LARIVEE
> Hey George.....Larivee was talking at PAS last year about the WGI unit that
> shot a little girl in the back of the head for *effect* at the end of their
> show.
> It was shock art.......the lowest form of creativity and should tell everyone
> the level WGI/DCI/BOA has sunk to in trying to get childrens time and their
> parents money. That was a gun there George. Rosie agree with that?
> Shooting kids in the back of the head for points is the philosophical result of
> following hypocritical non-competitors into absurdity.
>
> The result in percussion contests is that kids that cant play well at all win
> by powdering their faces and crying for the judges. Its a farce brought to
> you by George Hopkins non-competitive non-measurement competitions.
First off I would like to say that by no means would am I trying to
dissagree with your opinion on Mr. Hopkins, or his influence on the
activity. I do not have enough experience within DCI to feel
comfortable making any statements of opinion public. However, I do
have a bit of a history with WGI. As I read this part of your post I
couldn't help but want to add something to it. Being associated with
an indoor line for about 5 or 6 years now, your description only
brings to mind one show. I don't know if you heard all of the
discussion about that particular show and that particular "effect"
perhaps your opinion of it specifically might have changed, if you
knew the setting.
The show's theme, at least the show I am thinking of, was an
exploration of the holocaust. The moment at the end of the show where
the young lady is killed was unexpected, however I do think it was a
telling moment. A cumsy writer like myself cannot put in to words all
of the emotion and unspoken context of that confrontation between that
young lady and the "officer" who dispached her. However at the time
and place I understood, or in my perspective I understood, perhaps in
others perspective it was different. Anyway, I think my point is
this, the one moment at which the young lady is shot, yes, that is
shock art, however, that was one second in a ten minute show, the rest
of it had did have more, I assure you. Also though, to say that she
was shot for the points it would bring, well, that would be a bit out
of character for that particular performing group, imo.
One other thing I would like to point out briefly. You mention money,
and that insterests me, because, as I've mentioned, I have only the
perspective of the groups I've worked or played with, which aren't
many. However you state that "...WGI... trying to get...their parents
money" (a bad way to quote I know, sorry..) This is an amusing
statement to me, I don't know if you've ever been on the finacial side
of any organizations such as these, however it has been my experience,
personally, that none that I've worked with break even. I, along with
the rest of the staff, am an unpaid volunteer. Actually most of us
are also often sponsors. Last year was the first year that I didn't
pay anything extra other than my base expenses to travel with the
group, however, in the past I've ponied up more than $1500 in one
season (maybe not a lot for some of you, however I'm putting myself
through college at the moment) so that the kids wouldn't miss out on
the opportunity to take part, to compete in something great. So this
great wealth of money that WGI and its groups are raking in.. y'all
send some down this way eh?
I think I've rambled on long enough. If y'all don't mind I think I'll
stay at least partially anonomous, but for those of you who might
wonder or even suspect, I will attach this disclaimer. I am not, nor
have I ever been associated with CT at any time or in any manner.
Hope this post was at least legable, and y'all have a great day.
B.W.
drum corps fan
but sweet post! Now my feelings are hurt! (Ok, so they aren't) :)
bill
"Stefanie Kressaty" <scri...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:58Ph7.2840$Ib.3...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
KScheck
>eventually became extinct when they could not adapt to their environments.
>
>its called evolution, and it is inevitable.
Yes, but dinosaurs could never evolve into something other than a dinosaur, no
matter how hard they tried. In some people's opinions, drum corps seems as
though it may be "evolving" into something that isn't drum corps at all.
Either way ends in extinction.
Greggorie Delli
"SILVERDOTS" <silve...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010825004440...@mb-cs.aol.com...
Jeffsjetta
God I love the last 2 weeks of the year!
Daniel Scerpella
Nope,
it just means that we have been in your exact position. We have done all you
did (some of us more) It means that we get to have an opinion. It also means
to me that in 10 years, if things go on like they are now, you will be
asking the same questions we do.
It is the nature of things that as one gets older, one resists changes from
what is both comfortable and familiar. It is also the nature of things that
the young will also discount the advice of the old (relatively speaking, 40
aint that old!!!) many times to their own detriment. So a component of the
oldster bellyaching is definitely due to that phenomenon. But in complex
systems, there is a component of wisdom and experience which is represented
by the drum corps alumni posting here. The voices of experience and wisdom
serve as a steadying force to temper growth and make sure it proceeds in the
best possible way. The extent to which the influence of the alumni
contingent is followed can manifest in a number of ways. a) Drum corps could
be exactly the same as it ever was back in the 50s and 60s. b) Drum corps
could have experienced a gradual and expected evolution. or c) drum corps
could have advanced so rapidly and so distantly from its roots that it is
unrecognizable to the long time fan.
Clearly the argument is whether drum corps is now b) or c). Us oldsters
would argue its c), you current marchers would argue b) I would further
point to the inevitable backlash which is building to evidence that the
true answer is c). Remember kiddies, DCI was a backlash of sorts to the
control of the VFW and AL. It could and may happen again. The pendulum
swings both ways.
D. Crooks
1992 Top 25 meant DCI status. Know why? There were more than 25 open
class corps. This year, there were 18 open class corps. Attendance
at DCI finals drops every year (at least it seems to drop to me; i
could be wrong). At the very least, it is FAR from attendance in the
'glory days.'
Obviously people aren't entertained by a lot of the drum corps shows
now a days. Heck, i aged out in 1998 (not to mention i'm a band
director who teaches a lot of modern wind music), and i wasn't
entertained by a lot of the corps i saw. When Blue Devils don't
really sound like Blue Devils anymore (even Dennis D. made a comment
to that effect on the PBS broadcast), and tons of people get 'bored'
watching drum and bugle corps shows, AND attendance drops off at
shows, is the thing to do REALLY to say "if you don't like it leave."
Yeah; that's a GREAT way of building up the activity! Heck, it's
worked so great for DCI over the past serveral years!
I applaud the corps that strive to entertain (corps that come to mind
this year are Impulse, Renegades, heck even Cadets played a pseudo-fan
favorite show in some people's opinion). And while i realize that
entertainment is all in the eye of the beholder (from the mp3 i heard,
i LOVED Phantom Regiment's show), telling someone to go away because
they don't like a product they had to pay for to see doesn't seem to
be the way to handle this situation.
--
doug
'We are ONE'
"Drum n Bass" <nbmo...@home.com> wrote in message news:<aIHh7.15460$hT4.4...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com>...
Jeffsjetta
I have said the same thing the last 3 or 4 years, and several
times a year to anyone else who bitches. Go to DCI and voice your concerns..be
heard...start a petition, a website, 1-900 number...anything. Ranting on RAMD
will not fix it.
God I love the last 2 weeks of the season
Maxwell
I laughed for an hour over this one!!!!
Thanks!
"drum corps fan" <bill...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:8OOh7.9007$yD.100...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
Sambuca312
it.
If they REALLY want to be the "Bando" experience (and in the process avoid
ruining the name of a GREAT drum and bugle corps that goes all the way back to
the 1920s) restart the old 507 Hornets!!! Hey theres a REAL challenge for "A
Summer Music & Marching Educational Experience".
HOPNJ and his followers (that want the amps, reeds, woodwinds, circus acts and
"anything goes as long as it can be termed 'educational'" or 'accessable to
'everyone') should exit the junior corps activity. They are BORED with it.
His 2001 program for Garfield should be something of a clue.
It is to the great credit of Bill Cook, Jim Mason and the entire Star of
Indiana organization, that when, in 1993, they felt they could go no farther as
a drum and bugle corps, they departed, and DID NO HARM. With HOPNJ, this is
obviously not the case.
SAM
Catherine
news:0pQh7.156172$GN.21...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
> <snip good stuff>
> The extent to which the influence of the alumni
> contingent is followed can manifest in a number of ways. a) Drum corps
could
> be exactly the same as it ever was back in the 50s and 60s. b) Drum corps
> could have experienced a gradual and expected evolution. or c) drum corps
> could have advanced so rapidly and so distantly from its roots that it is
> unrecognizable to the long time fan.
>
> Clearly the argument is whether drum corps is now b) or c). Us oldsters
> would argue its c), you current marchers would argue b) I would further
> point to the inevitable backlash which is building to evidence that the
> true answer is c). Remember kiddies, DCI was a backlash of sorts to the
> control of the VFW and AL. It could and may happen again. The pendulum
> swings both ways.
The irony is that it was many of us - when young - who were pushing for many
of the changes without realizing the inevitable negative effects. I truly
hope that today's young people will do better than we did in our choices and
not throw the baby out with the bathwater - particularly since there's a lot
less wiggle-room.
It begs the question, though, as to whether many of the same forces (and
some of the same people) today - using many of the same methods (via phone
and snail mail only) - influenced us in similar ways back then.
-- Catherine
Mike
He stated that if WE didn't like it, to go somewhere else......
So I stated , WE were here first......not better.......
drum corps fan
recognition, Gary Coleman, Emmanuel Lewis.
:)
bill
(oh crap, someone's gonna get offended by that)
"Maxwell" <maxwe...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:oEQh7.135668$EP6.37...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
drum corps fan
bill
"Jeffsjetta" <jeffs...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010825122853...@mb-ct.aol.com...
Rick and Sue Deschene
Very well put.
Sue
Jeffsjetta
Ron Allard
>i lump em all together...he has some pints but nothing will get fixed on here
After I have a few pints, I think I can fixed anything...
Heh...
--
Ron in Vegas
mailto:ron.a...@att.net
"Because there was always something about the Skyliners...
and that music..."
- Donnie Solinger
Senior Corps History site:
http://www.SrCorps.com
Jeffsjetta
AJLisko
>After I have a few pints, I think I can fixed anything...
>Heh...
>
No wonder I can't win at the casinos. When are you coming out to Foxwoods or
Mohegan Sun? Sorry I won't be able to tip a few with you in Syacuse this year.
College move in for my daughter again. Maybe next year in Scranton.
Hope all is well.
Andy
DRUMLAW80
you expect it to end with? Lionel Richie and the Rockettes?
Seriously though, and for the record -- in my opinion, the 1999 Carolina
Thunder is officially the most emotionally effective performance I have ever
seen in percussion.
By far.
David Below
was UNHEARD of. When Shocker of Cavaliers did it in the 80's it
reverberated around the corps world. These days, whole drumlines are made
up of 16-17 year old marching band kids.
It's not about evolving and being better players now, its that the demand
level of corps has been watered down to marching band level, and marching
bands got better due to the ease of the diluted rudimental style that got
passed down from the late 80s-early 90s corps guys who taught band after
tour.
Check patterns in 3 with crazy flam accents ain't drum corps...its a
streetbeat. Too bad most show drumbooks are just that.
Hopkins is destroying the activity. It was fine until the design elements
took over the demand and performance standards. The crowd could tell who
was the best WITHOUT PROPS.
What's sad is that the posts that negate Mazur's points mostly tell him to
go away, that he's an old fart messing with the kid's of today's experience.
Ya never really see these kids trying to process the information and think
about what really goes on outside of their closed practice room doors at
camp, down the hall inthe staff room. Not once have I ever played drum
corps shows and percussion stuff from the past for today's kids and had them
think it was old and dated. They wanted to know what the hell it was, it
excited them. But letting the kids of today know about the history of corps
would shed light on what they're being led away from by today's hacks. If
kids knew what they were really missing out on, they'd ask why they can't do
that today.
Then the staff's would have explaining to do.
> From: silve...@aol.com (SILVERDOTS)
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
> Date: 25 Aug 2001 04:44:40 GMT
> Subject: Whats wrong? Easy....George Hopkins
> Hey George.....Larivee was talking at PAS last year about the WGI unit that
> shot a little girl in the back of the head for *effect* at the end of their
> show.
Rick and Sue Deschene
> >Hey George.....Larivee was talking at PAS last year about the WGI unit that
> >shot a little girl in the back of the head for *effect* at the end of their
> >show. It was shock art.......the lowest form of creativity
To which Lee Rudnicki replied:
>
> Shock art? Hahahaha. Not even. The show was about the Holocaust -- What did
> you expect it to end with? Lionel Richie and the Rockettes?
>
<snip>
Are we talking about Union High School's Holocaust show from the late
'80s?
Good grief.
Sue
Cozy
>
> while today's drum corps is definitly not the same as it was "back in the
> day" - there are still many many kids getting many many great experiences
> from marching drum corps.
>
> so just clap if you like it, or don't if you don't.
>
many, many. Hence, the problem. That I don't like.
Cozy
CONQUEST
level of corps has been watered down >to marching band level, and marching
> bands got better due to the ease of the diluted >rudimental style that got
> passed down from the late 80s-early 90s corps guys >who taught band after
tour.
****This one brought me out from temporary lurk status. I feel this way,
too.
> Check patterns in 3 with crazy flam accents ain't drum >corps...its a
streetbeat. Too bad most show drumbooks >are just that.
***Bammmm. Nail being hit.
>Not once have I ever played drum
> corps shows and percussion stuff from the past for >today's kids and had
them
> think it was old and dated. They wanted to know what >the hell it was, it
> excited them.
****Yeee hahhhh... I remember being played a Reading Buccaneers show from
late 70's that had more meat (but was still musical so no "more notes
suck"-type flames) than most DCI shows today. When I play mid-late 70's
early 80's stuff for my kids, or show them the actual notes from them on
paper, they are freaked (more from a snare perspective than anything else).
Makes some of the "sprees" that are around today look like a simple check
pattern.
>If kids knew what they were really missing out on, they'd ask why they
can't do
> that today.
I agree. But my feeling is that I still like the overall design aspects of
today's shows. I just don't like the percussion from a battery standpoint.
And even then that's not entirely true for me.
I think the writing fits the music chosen in a lot of cases. I think it
boils down to the fact that a lot of the choices made in shows these days
don't call for much more than glorified concert percussion. You can't write
what used to be written "back in the day" for the stuff we see out there
now. Is that wrong? No. But evolved? Jury is out.
I must also add that I think when I look at tenor (kind of hard to judge
against old tri-tom and single sling tenors) and bass books, those 2
sections in particular have REALLY stepped up big time from the days of old.
Even plate lines playing split flams, drags, and such with multiple tap
variations and techniques have evolved tremendously. So it's a double edged
sword. Give and take. And every other cliche out there.
Just my opinion. Worth about as much as the paper it's printed on, and no
point made since I just think randomly.
Howard Hoffman
others see achievement. Do me a favor. Promise me you'll never sit near
me at a drum corps show. I'm having too good a time to risk hearing the
bitterness and disrespect of your misguided mind.
HH
PS: Pay attention. Which corps pleased the crowd the most this year?
Cadets and Crossmen, two YEA/Hopkins entries, are surely on the short
list. I wish you had as much brain as you have nerve.
> Hey George.....Larivee was talking at PAS last year about the WGI unit that
> shot a little girl in the back of the head for *effect* at the end of their
> show.
Ben
no one said it doesnt mean you dont get to have an opinion. i never agreed
with the guy who told someone to "Shutup" but replying with "we were here
first, dumbass" is not a good argument. if it was we would all have to get up
and go back to europe and let the native americans have their land back.
> there is a component of wisdom and experience which is represented
>by the drum corps alumni posting here
i am very glad they post here. some of my favorite posters are those who
marched back in the 60's and 70's, but i dont see them bitching about
everything all the time. if they do, maybe at least they have the courtesy not
to do it in front of today's members who are trying to enjoy their experience.
>It also means
>to me that in 10 years, if things go on like they are now, you will be
>asking the same questions we do.
>
god i hope not. and i doubt it, i can watch a show on tape from the 70's,
80's, 90's, or 2000's and still be entertained by it. Although drum corps has
changed it doesnt mean that i dont appreciate what happened in the past.
Benny
Highland HS '96-'00
Gilbert, AZ
RCC Marching Tigers '00-??
Riverside, CA
Ron Allard
Bummer!
I was looking forward to seeing you again...
Ben
>now!
LOL. this is gonna be one of those posts that my mind will wander to when im
bored in class or something...and ill just start laughing out loud during the
lecture. youd be surprised the kind of looks you get when that happens, heh.
Ron Allard
>err points....sorry Ron didn't mean to get you thirsty
Just gettin' into my DCA mindset...
Jeffsjetta
maybe something productive can happen from them...but then again, it's logical
silly me for suggesting something logical.
Now, I am far from a Hoppy fan, but he doesn't write the books..tho he does run
one helluva an ensemble rehearsal. So maybe contacting the arrangers as well as
the corps directors might help...again, silly me for being logical
>Subject: Re: Whats wrong? Easy....George Hopkins
>From: David Below david...@home.com
>Date: 8/25/01 2:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <B7AD68A9.3ECB%david...@home.com>
Harrison
what they're doing-OK I want to see SCV. I also enjoy Pacific Crest and The
Renegades. The last time I attending finals left an extremely bad taste in
my mouth-so I just don't go. I had attended finals 13 out of 15 years
before deciding not to attend any longer.
As for today's drum corps, I find myself enjoying a couple of the tunes
played by any of the corps, but can't stand most of the music. The drill
movement is impressive, but nothing is ever clean. There is also a lack of
individual technique.
The things I enjoyed doing, such as playing enjoyable music and marching
clean drill, just aren't part of the activity. So I have chosen to occupy
myself with other things that I enjoy.
To this day, nothing excites me more than a solid, loud brass line playing a
sweet tune. I just love the sound that has disappeared.
Life is too short to watch DCI and bitch about it-so I'm done.
"SILVERDOTS" <silve...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010825004440...@mb-cs.aol.com...
Stuart Rice
> oh god, i dont even know where to start. First let me say that this kind of
> negativity certainly isnt helping the activity.
Heh. Fair enough.
> Lets face it, George Hopkins is the scapegoat for "all that is wrong with DCI
> today" whether he actually had anything to do with it or not.
Saying he is a scapegoat infers he doesn't deserve his criticism. I'm
not sure I agree. Ken (silverdots) may have a gift for understatement
and synergy (*sarcasm*), but he is infinitely more qualified than
Hopkins to share his voice for the needs and nature of the activity.
The fact that he isn't around RAMD enough to work on sharing that
opinion effectively is beside the point. He has proven he is capable
of it:
http://www.geocities.com/marchingresearch/mazsym97.txt
Ken may come off like Mussolini, but George Hopkins' influence is, in
fact, more akin to Hitler. Hopkins' recently announced "final
solution" for certain essential drum corps arts (rifle, sabre) is
devastating the integrity and subsequent value of the activity. I'm
sure his popularity out East makes this hard for many to hear, but his
staff creates decent show *in spite of him*, not because of him or his
policies against drum corps.
> Ken points the
> Bb finger at George when that was a DAVE GIBBS/ BLUE DEVILS proposal.
Yes, I remember reading Dave's bafflingly ignorant and faulty defense
of the decision here on RAMD. Hopkins' may not have a monopoly on
creative stupidity, but most of Hopkins' creative ideas are so bad -
electronics, woodwinds, anti-rifle/sabre arts - that some don't get
adequate popular support. Mysteriously, some of these have had some
success in becoming accepted as policy, both in his corps and in the
activity.
George Hopkins has neither the experience nor the understanding of the
creative product of drum and bugle corps to warrent this kind of
influence. This is a fascist result of his charisma, marketing
skills, and early good fortune and success in affiliation with George
Zingali. George Hopkins' influence in areas in which he has no
qualifications is not at all complimentary of the drum corps arts as a
youth or creative organization.
More important than their acceptance, Hopkins' bad ideas get serious
consideration. Whenever bad ideas get serious consideration, it makes
the more moderately bad ideas seem like no big deal. Hence, Dave
Gibbs (who is not an arranger or composer) can champion the idea of
playing indoor-designed instruments outdoors (like trumpets), which is
a dumb idea, no matter what key they are in.
There are three serious issues here:
1. Yesterday's directors are not qualified to make creative policy
for the drum corps arts.
2. When these more moderately stupid ideas become policy, its makes
the more destructive ideas easier to swallow.
3. The greater the number of dumb ideas on the table, the more
difficult it is to find smart ideas.
Sure, not all dumb ideas come from Hopkins. One could also make the
case that the disintegration of rudimental-style drumming began with
BD before Gibbs. But I think its clear that through his demonstrated
effort to embrace dumb ideas (if not create them), George Hopkins has
done more dammage to the drum corps arts (drum, bugle, flag, rifle,
sabre) than any other corps director in history.
From what I have heard of his personal conduct among female drum corps
participants, it is something of a wonder to me that he gets away with
all of this. Then again, he's had a long and clever ride on the
coattails of George Zingali. George Hopkins has been the beneficiary
of the fabulous wealth of invisible capital from Zingali's reputation
and revolutionary contributions through the Cadets.
> But hell, lets blame him anyway, right? its easier that way...
Its not that I think that Hopkins deserves credit for *everything*
wrong in DCI (Gibbs comes in a respectable second-place for his
negligence and lazy attitude toward the clamor for reform). Its just
that Hopkins happens to the worst, most destructive influence on the
activity, and the times are such that he finally being recognized for
his tireless effort to compromise the drum corps arts - drums, bugles,
flags, rifles, sabres.
I for one have come to accept that DCI will not reform. As long as
the corruption isn't coming from the top (not that I don't think
Acheson could be more assertive in putting these nut-cases on a
leash), then it is necessary to look at individual records. Hopkins'
record of action against the drum corps arts (drums, bugles, flags,
rifles, sabres) happens to be the worst.
This is not scapegoating - it is George Hopkins reaping what he sows.
People who are disenfranchised, people who care, people who have made
a positive contribution like Ken Mazur, shouldn't be held responsible
for Hopkins' destructive actions.
> Im sorry, but i
> think George Hopkins gets a lot of unneccessary negativity aimed at him. Do i
> agree with everything he says? no, but i still respect his opinions.
He may have many valuable opinions regarding marketing. I believe
that's what he studied in college, and he has certainly done well in
that regard for the Cadets and YEA. Unfortunately, those are not the
opinions that he is using to shape DCI. Hopkins is proposing,
supporting, and implementing policy for an art form he hasn't studied
in any way I know of.
People think of DCI as Washington, D.C. - sent an accomplished and
semi-honest Joe and he'll look out for the little guy. I think other
analogys ought to be explored. Musically illiterate persons do not
conduct symphony orchestras.
>IMO he is a great man in drum corps.
He seems to be a charismatic leader. So was Hitler (Person of the
Century, by most accounts in 1999). The thing with Hitler, however,
was that even Americans refused to recognize his crimes - until the
Japanese began speaking Hitler's language in the South Pacific. There
are many, many victims of pacifism in drum corps as well. I wish
there were fewer perpetrators, but I won't condemn them for not
understanding the situation.
>Overall since the 80's, his corps has entertained
>me the most of any and none have had consistency as great as his.
Like I say, this is more *in spite of* Hopkins. He has provided a
stable financial situation for many artists who are in his debt, and
who (for a meal ticket) are more than willing to accomodate the
encroachment of his creative policies on their arts. Its
understandable.
>And what about drum corps not being about education but about
entertainment?
>Drum corps is a vehicle for both, but the most important people in
drum
>corps are the kids that are IN THE DRUM CORPS! not those of us who
sit
>on our asses and watch.
I appreciate your concern, but some people sit on their asses because
they have no choice - they cannot afford to sacrifice their careers
and families to make an effort to counter the trends, to demonstrate
expensive solutions to the expensive problems of creativity run amok.
Bill Cook is the exception, but even his staff is struggling with an
identity crisis. Talking things out it is the only way most people
can afford to contribute, and isn't that a shame. Qualified,
experienced, interested people whom DCI cannot - will not - organize
and empower.
> Without the kids, there is no drum corps.
Without drum corps, there is no "kids". Most drum corps experiences
can be had elsewhere (and in better conditions).
>As far as the kids not needing talent anymore...ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!
pull out
>a video tape of any pre 1990 year and tell me that the drill is
harder than
>what they are pulling off today. not only to march that but to play
to! Thats
>just downright degrading to the kids to even suggest that.
Sure the drill is more difficult - nobody can assert that more
credibly than I can through Planar Analysis. However, technique has
gotten progressively worse since the 80's, and the creative content is
not always commensurate with the difficulty level - corps still
"overgraze" 2 or 3 of the nine different movement types throughout the
show (I'm sure Ken can make similar statements about the lack of
*real* difficulty in the drum books).
Kids are marching harder, but not necessarily smarter - they still
cannot lift their instrument properly, stand up straight, or march
with control or clarity. Marching is not choreographed - it is
ingrained by wearing paths into turf from spot to spot, and
programming the brain to merely execute individually rather than
express collectively. We have much to learn about marching. Perhaps
Hopkins would disagree because it is an art of primarily military
origin. Directors, for some reason, fancy themselves artists in their
enthusiasm for making creative policy these days.
>If kids felt that
>they were being abused and that their talents were being wasted, why
would they
>continue to flock back every year? Oh wait, is this part of your
Hopkins
>brainwashing conpsiracy? Take a number and get in line behind the
Madison
>people....
I really dislike the way Madison is criticized lately.
I think you're making assumptions about kids interest in drum corps
these days. We're talking about an increasingly small number of youth
participating in organizations with increasingly complicated problems
of retention.
> .> resulted in inferior designs and an inferior
> >product, taught by people who cant teach art.
>
> all subjective and opinon. are we gonna get some facts with all this opinion?
Read the paper at the link I posted. If you get through the whole
thing, I believe you'll think differently. Ken knows more about drum
corps than Hopkins knows about his most knowledgeable subject.
> i think that show design today is spectacular, exciting, and very intriguing!
> Oops i shouldnt have said that....i am going to be blacklisted now....
I think the drill has improved, from what I observed while giving
Planar Analysis to the 2000 finalists. Whether it is "inferior" from
a design standpoint is probably relative, but I feel that its also
immaterial. Choreographed marching is principally choreography, and I
don't think you can compare dance to Picasso.
As far as choreographers of marching not being able to teach their
art, I am more inclined to agree with Ken on this. Everything is
charted. We are heavily into choreography - movement, and are yet
still too insecure to teach two-dimensional dance. Too afraid to even
train outside the gridiron. This is evident in the fact that most
drill writers cannot identify the nine different movement types they
use. This is to say nothing of the fact that marchers are not being
trained to execute the types of movement and polymovement they march
in shows.
> i just want to say that members of corps never cease to amaze me (no matter
> what corps or whether i like the show or not....just them doing it is good
> enough for me!). I LOVE DRUM CORPS AND THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE IT HAPPEN! im
> proud to be part of this activity!!!
Ditto. I am proud of the drum corps arts. I am proud of drum and
bugle corps. I am proud of drums, bugles, flags, rifles, and sabres.
Why someone like George Hopkins is so interested in compromising drum
and bugle corps - and has thus far been so successful in doing so - is
more of a disappointment. After all, I can see marching bands anytime
I want.
Stuart E. Rice
ser...@juno.com
http://www.geocities.com/marchingresearch
Daniel Scerpella
While I agreed with 99% of what you have written here, havent you now
brought the thread to a crashing halt with the mention of Adolf Hitler?
"Stuart Rice" <ser...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:d12adb54.01082...@posting.google.com...
Jeffsjetta
is a far cry from that.
Mr. Wideman
one of the most entertaining groups I've ever seen on a football field.
If that were drumcorps..I'd never miss a show!
Benny wrote:
> oh god, i dont even know where to start. First let me say that this kind of
> negativity certainly isnt helping the activity.
>
> Lets face it, George Hopkins is the scapegoat for "all that is wrong with DCI
> today" whether he actually had anything to do with it or not. Ken points the
> Bb finger at George when that was a DAVE GIBBS/ BLUE DEVILS proposal. But
> hell, lets blame him anyway, right? its easier that way... Im sorry, but i
> think George Hopkins gets a lot of unneccessary negativity aimed at him. Do i
> agree with everything he says? no, but i still respect his opinions. IMO he
> is a great man in drum corps. Overall since the 80's, his corps has
> entertained me the most of any and none have had consistency as great as his.
> And what about drum corps not being about education but about
> entertainment? Drum corps is a vehicle for both, but the most important people
> in drum corps are the kids that are IN THE DRUM CORPS! not those of us who sit
> on our asses and watch. Without the kids, there is no drum corps. They join
> for a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to spend a summer with other awesome
> people, to have fun, and to learn!
> As far as the kids not needing talent anymore...ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! pull
> out a video tape of any pre 1990 year and tell me that the drill is harder than
> what they are pulling off today. not only to march that but to play to! Thats
> just downright degrading to the kids to even suggest that. If kids felt that
> they were being abused and that their talents were being wasted, why would they
> continue to flock back every year? Oh wait, is this part of your Hopkins
> brainwashing conpsiracy? Take a number and get in line behind the Madison
> people....
>
> .> resulted in inferior designs and an inferior
>
>>product, taught by people who cant teach art.
>>
>
> all subjective and opinon. are we gonna get some facts with all this opinion?
> i think that show design today is spectacular, exciting, and very intriguing!
> Oops i shouldnt have said that....i am going to be blacklisted now....
>
> i just want to say that members of corps never cease to amaze me (no matter
> what corps or whether i like the show or not....just them doing it is good
> enough for me!). I LOVE DRUM CORPS AND THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE IT HAPPEN! im
> proud to be part of this activity!!!
>
>
> Benny
> Highland HS '96-'00
Marty McIsaac
Howard Hoffman wrote:
> What's wrong? You're what's wrong. You see only disaster and doom where
> others see achievement.
Howie, Howie Howie, calm down.......
> Do me a favor. Promise me you'll never sit near
> me at a drum corps show.
Hope that an individual with Ken's credentials would sit next to you at any show. He
could give you a far more credible and in depth interpretation than any YEA-drone.
> I'm having too good a time to risk hearing the
> bitterness and disrespect of your misguided mind.
Good and I hope George gives you a break next year on your kids YEA extorti.....I
mean dues. Though Ken comes across with a bit of vitriol, he does knows his stuff.
Ken made his DC bones long before many RAMDers had ever even heard of this activity.
>
>
>
> PS: Pay attention. Which corps pleased the crowd the most this year?
> Cadets and Crossmen, two YEA/Hopkins entries, are surely on the short
> list. I wish you had as much brain as you have nerve.
You're just killin me.
"..YEA/Hopkins entries....." You prove Ken's point. It ain't about Hoppy or any
organization. It's about the kids. Directors and designers and caption heads belong
on practice fields and on corps press releases. Not leading corps out onto the field.
As an example, Drum corps should be led out onto a field by their Drum Majors. Not
some waist line challenged, self appointed king of the activity. But then again, I
never bought into the YEA mantra, what the hell would I know. :)
Howard Hoffman
If you want to make the spurious argument that Hopkin's influence on
drum corps has been negative, you ignore the reality that surely the
non-YEA corps have a right to choose their own destiny. If they believed
that stagnant were better, they wouldn't change. But they did.
What's most amazing to me in this anti-Hopkins crusade is the free pass
you Neanderthals hand out to Cavies, BD, SCV and even the sacred Scouts.
You act as if only the Cadets offend. I've got news for you, the
disciple Scott Stewart who presides over all that is still holy in the
wayward DCI world isn't keeping the commandments you allege Hopkins
breaks. What happened to your rudiments in Madison? Is Hopkins calling
the shots there too?
HH
Mike
Great posts.
Written to cover all points, and on a level that I could understand.
I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate you guys having the smarts to
put it so well.
I may have the balls to say what I feel, but seldom do I have the correct
words.
Again,
Thank you,
The Other Mike...................
PhD in BS
Proud member of the Old Pharts Brigade.......
Sharcast2
I have. I've also taken the time to learn about such a person that is Ken
Mazur. How many of you have?
As for Mr Hopkins, asking him a question and expecting and honest answer is
like asking a salesman if his "gadget" (sorry Gadget..) really works.
Ken Mazur wants the "gadget" to work. Mr Hopkins wants to sell a "gadget" .
I've actually done it. I've asked Mr Mazur what he thinks should be done. His
answers were revealing to me. Seriously posed questions.. answered quite
seriously.
I wish that Mr Hopkins would afford some seriously posed questions with some
serious answers.
As in most businesses.. the Salesmen really should listen to the workers.
Actually.. the workers (the people that have studied, been in the trenches, the
learned persons) KNOW!
Sharon
BOY1230
entertained me the most of any and none have had consistency as great as his.
>>>>
WRONG ANSWER!!!! Blue Devils have been more consistent, and have more trophies,
awards, accolades, and higher consistent placement than do the Cadets/Cadets of
Bergen County/Garfield Cadets........
Geoffrey
BOY1230
Jeff, did YOU have a few pints maybe before posting??? LOL
Geoffrey
BOY1230
<<<<What's wrong? You're what's wrong. You see only disaster and doom where
others see achievement. Do me a favor. Promise me you'll never sit near
me at a drum corps show. I'm having too good a time to risk hearing the
bitterness and disrespect of your misguided mind.
HH >>>>>
Don't worry eventually there will be alot of vacant seats around you..too bad ,
yes I say too bad you are content with the way things are...I guess it's only
going to get BETTER for you eh ??
Geoffrey
BOY1230
Cadets and Crossmen, two YEA/Hopkins entries, are surely on the short
list. I wish you had as much brain as you have nerve. >>>>
I guess I was in a different stadium in Buffalo....BD,Madison,SCV,Phantom, and
Cavaliers received as much "noize" as Cadets and Crossmen did.....some even
more
Geoffrey
Jeffsjetta
>Subject: Re: Whats wrong? Easy....George Hopkins
>From: boy...@aol.com (BOY1230)
>Date: 8/25/01 9:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20010825215750...@mb-cl.aol.com>
Jeffsjetta
choir here. He should get some support behind him and go to DCI and speak at a
meeting
Jeffsjetta
no i wish.....
Stuart Rice
> Stuart,
>
> While I agreed with 99% of what you have written here, havent you now
> brought the thread to a crashing halt with the mention of Adolf Hitler?
Fair question. You be the judge:
- A community member whose experience of citizenship was born just
outside the boundaries of the orthodox community, the standing of
which has been compromised since his coming to power.
- Popular among his community and political party.
- Accomplished orator and charismatic motivator.
- Given to exercising inordinate political influence beyond the
limited duties of appointed public office and the bounds of
appropriate political power.
- Many supporters and sympathizers, despite their differences on
various issues.
- Envisions a socially acceptable conglomerate identity which excludes
controversial elements.
- Advocates the total elimination of socially controversial elements.
Which one am I talking about?
Benny
i agree with what you said, but the name-calling really detracts from the
credibility of your post.
Benny
your POV.
But i think you underestimate Hopkin's knowledge of the activity. Even if
he WAS riding Zingali's coattails (which im not agreeing he was), that ended
over 10 years ago. And also, i think that is the idea of being a corps
director. His job is not to program the shows, but to take care of the
staffing issues (ie, hiring show designers who create the great shows), manage
things in a financially-responsible way, and keep things in general order.
Zingali may have been responsible for the great Cadets shows of the 80's, but
again i dont think its George's job to take care of that. He obviously has a
say, but the details belong to the desingers/show coordinator.
Hopkins as Hitler? I can understand that you are trying to say they shared
similar traits with their respective societies, but i think thats pushing it.
>I really dislike the way Madison is criticized lately.
>
im sorry if anyone misunderstood. that comment was not directed at the Madison
Scouts or its members, but at those who complain of Madison conspiracy
theories.
Benny
>one of the most entertaining groups I've ever seen on a football field.
hehe, thanks. awesome staff there that makes it all happen. this year is
gonna be another fun year. think SCV 82 meets Madison 85/2000, meets Blue
Devils all rolled into one suite.
Benny
more championship rings. And i think its pretty impossible to debate
consistency in overall placement. BD had those years from 89-93 while Cadets
had years like 1991 and 1999 (and by "those years" im talking the rare occasion
that they didnt finish in the top 3).
BOY1230
more championship rings. And i think its pretty impossible to debate
consistency in overall placement. BD had those years from 89-93 while Cadets
had years like 1991 and 1999 (and by "those years" im talking the rare occasion
that they didnt finish in the top 3). >>>
Blue Devils have NEVER fallen out of the top five....Cadets did!!
Blue Devils have more trophies for caption awards.....
.....
oh, and 89-93 ?? lets see: 4,4t,5,4,4.....what would you consider them "those
years" for ??
Geoffrey
Ryan Williams
away from it's roots and is convincing the judges that it is right, don't
you think the other corps, whether or not they agree, will follow suit, to
remain competitive? Would Cavies, SCV, Scouts, and BD honestly just roll
over and die because someone else made a change? No...they'd deal with the
change, too, and hope that they can kick someone's butt with it.
Ryan Williams
Pet Peeve #482:
People that reply to general posts, but leave 4 pages of a previous post at
the bottom of their own, without actually responding to any of the specific
points made in that post.
Sambuca312
finishes. In 1972, 73,74, 76, 78,and 79 they were out of Finals. In 75, 77,
80,and 81 were other years that they were out of the "Top 6". 1982 was
their first "Top 3" Finals placement.
As Holy Name/Garfield they have 10 American Legion National Championships to
their credit.
Santa Clara Vanguard is the only corps to have made DCI Finals each year.
Madison has one miss (1972). Blue Devils have been Finalists every year since
1974. Cavaliers were cut in 73 and 78.
AND: If you want another record , the St Vincents Cadets of Bayonne NJ won 13
National Championships in the Legion and VFW from 1947 to 1961, competing
against the best corps in the country for that era. They also had back-to-back
undefeated seasons 1951 & 52.
Just for your info:)
SAM
CHEZ
go watch some tv or have some decaf.
everyone is tired of this bull$#%^$
if you have suggestions. -------post them .------------
if you have a review -----------post it .-----------
if there was something this summer that you dug -----tell about it..
if you have a memory of old drum corps --------let us all hear about it..
if you have a show idea ,,, -------------post it.
I love to read about the corps , the expiriences , the summer tours , the inside ,
the shows , the plans for 2002.
just tired of all the bitching....moaning .....
what this guy says sucks , what this guy does blows.
how about some suggestions to make OUR activity better , bigger , more
recognizable to the general public. instead of bashing..
I was told by my drum corps friends that after dci / dca it is a good time to
not read ramd because if all the bitching . I guess they were right..
ALAN CHEZ
Stuart Rice
>>Ken may come off like Mussolini, but George Hopkins' influence is,
in
>>fact, more akin to Hitler.
Howard Hoffman <Hoff...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3B899FD2...@worldnet.att.net>...
>Hopkins as Hitler?
No, 'Hopkins' influence more akin to Hitler.'
>You should be ashamed of yourself.
I think you have me confused with someone who is destroying drum and
bugle corps.
> If you want to make the spurious argument that Hopkin's influence on
> drum corps has been negative, you ignore the reality that surely the
> non-YEA corps have a right to choose their own destiny. If they believed
> that stagnant were better, they wouldn't change. But they did.
Not sure I follow you, but my concern is about Hopkins, not YEA.
> What's most amazing to me in this anti-Hopkins crusade is the free pass
> you Neanderthals hand out to Cavies, BD, SCV and even the sacred Scouts.
1. Heh. Yeah, God forbid the Scouts should escape criticism. :-/
2. I take it you are a Cadet fan (BTW, this isn't about the Cadets
either).
3. If you're referring to these corps directors, I mentioned that
Gibbs came in a respectable second for his negligence. However, it
doesn't make sense to change the world overnight, does it. One thing
at a time.
> You act as if only the Cadets offend.
Again, this isn't about the Cadets. God bless 'em.
> I've got news for you, the
> disciple Scott Stewart who presides over all that is still holy in the
> wayward DCI world isn't keeping the commandments you allege Hopkins
> breaks.
You mean someone under Stewart wants to eliminate rifles and sabres,
and wants to compromise bugles, drums, and flags? (Of course you
don't. I think you're referring to one of the tangents of my
argument, which was beside the point).
> What happened to your rudiments in Madison? Is Hopkins calling
> the shots there too?
No, the judges are calling the shots ... as DCI tells them to. Scott
Stewart is far too sensible to be caught up in the silly agendas of
sacking rifle work and getting trumpets into drum corps.
scvb...@aol.com (Benny) wrote in message news:<20010826050313...@mb-mr.aol.com>...
>very nice response Stuart, youve come the closest of anyone to
convincing me of
>your POV.
Thanks.
> But i think you underestimate Hopkin's knowledge of the activity.
Could be.
> Even if
> he WAS riding Zingali's coattails (which im not agreeing he was), that ended
> over 10 years ago.
Still, the dead and sainted are an excellent vehicle for coattail
riders.
> And also, i think that is the idea of being a corps
> director. His job is not to program the shows, but to take care of the
> staffing issues (ie, hiring show designers who create the great shows), manage
> things in a financially-responsible way, and keep things in general order.
Sure. And what does that has to do with his influence over bugles,
rifles, and sabres?
> Zingali may have been responsible for the great Cadets shows of the 80's, but
> again i dont think its George's job to take care of that. He obviously has a
> say, but the details belong to the desingers/show coordinator.
That being the case, what gives someone with the job description you
mentioned any say in the equipment being used?
> Hopkins as Hitler? I can understand that you are trying to say they shared
> similar traits with their respective societies, but i think thats pushing it.
Didn't say he was Hitler or Elvis. I compared the influence of the
two. "Hopkins' influence is, in fact, more akin to Hitler." BTW,
just remembered another thing they have in common. Both came to
worldwide attention on the Olympic stage.
Stefanie Kressaty
avid member of the RAMD bitching club.
I doubt I supported it then.. I still don't.
Stuart, for the sake of the rest of our sanity, don't conjure the name
hitler when referring to Hopkins.
We've discussed it to death EVERY BLESSED YEAR.
No one is going to buy into it now that didn't buy into it before. Drop it.
What was that other post? Paging Dead Horse.... Dead Horse party of one?
(thanks bc)
Report to Stuart's house for your yearly beating.
Stefanie
"Stuart Rice" <ser...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:d12adb54.01082...@posting.google.com...
drum corps fan
Thanks Stef
bill
Div23fan
supercorps" idea is essentially the "master race" concept, applied to drum
corps.
Hoppynj
Question?
Did I not receive an application for a position on the Cadets staff?
Why would you send such ...
if I am so incompetent?
As for the rest of this ...
Well ....
it is really not possible to respond.
The attacks are of a kind that nothing I could ever say will sway opinion.
All I can do is do what I do ..
for the Crossmen ..
for the Cadets ..
with the US Scholastic Band Assoc.
and with DCI (as a board member)
I will continue to do the best I can ...
and to do what I believe is correct.
I appreciate the opinions of those who think the activity needs to " return to
the roots",
but alas, I do disagree. You know that and so do I.
So ...
We continue on ...
Have a great end of summer!!!
>Saying he is a scapegoat infers he doesn't deserve his criticism. I'm
>not sure I agree. Ken (silverdots) may have a gift for understatement
>and synergy (*sarcasm*), but he is infinitely more qualified than
>Hopkins to share his voice for the needs and nature of the activity.
>The fact that he isn't around RAMD enough to work on sharing that
>opinion effectively is beside the point. He has proven he is capable
>of it:
>
>http://www.geocities.com/marchingresearch/mazsym97.txt
>
>Ken may come off like Mussolini, but George Hopkins' influence is, in
Hoppynj
be nice. I know you have not had experience with this board, at least not to
this degree, but I have ---
from personal attacks and threats --
you name it.
The best policy is to do not what I do, which is actually read and answer
ocassionally, but .... go away and stay away. It is better for you. I
unfortunatly have some kind of complex that forces me to read material that is
at best critical and sometimes, a good deal more.
You are a good man Chez .. you have a great heart, and you do great things for
kids.
Stay with that --
Thanks for the work you do with the Crossmen and the Cadets.
My regards and respect.
Hop
Ben
okay, and since 1980 (again, the date i set previously) the Cadets havent had 5
consecutive years without finishing in the top 2 or even top 3 (as BD did in
89-93).
>Blue Devils have more trophies for caption awards.....
captions, although nice, are just icing on the cake and overall not as
important as the overall big picture.
>.what would you consider them "those
>years" for ??
>
i already stated why i consider them "those years." its the rare occasion
that they didnt finish in the top 3.
anyway, as i said before its pretty impossible to compare consistency between
these 2 corps as they have obviously been the most consistent of any
championship contending corps...lets not get worked up over it.
Benny
Highland HS '96-'00
Gilbert, AZ
RCC Marching Tigers '00-??
Riverside, CA
Jeffsjetta
last year.....shy of Madison 99....average with Orlando.....good thing we pay
$75, or DCI would be where it was after 93...
And, to be honest, as things stand, I don't see a trend in finals attendance to
go up. Madison may help as it is the most universally loved finals sites, but
continuing as we are, it is not hard to imagine finals crowds the size of the
Hershey how in 10-15 years( 5-6000)
Jeffsjetta
insights.
SILVERDOTS
make me.
>><< start a new cicut where everyone plays 5 stroke rolls and ratamacues for
12
minutes and leave us alone.
>>
But little one.....we CAN play 5 stroke rolls and ratamacues.
Your problem eh? Paint your face and run around some more. Its noce to see
young people like you used so easily by people like Hopkins. Whats the
matter......Cesario didnt sell you enough face powder to be pretty for the
judges?
Ken Mazur
SILVERDOTS
>>
It means the members didnt sacrifice their time and money to be used by visual
designers with no art credentials. We were honed to perform with far better
technical challenges and physical techniques that you. The gap is so wide now
that everyone is talking about it. Find out what happened. Then ask for your
instructors art degree.
Ken Mazur
Stuart Rice
> Stuart --
>
> Question?
>
> Did I not receive an application for a position on the Cadets staff?
I think we both were under that impression - yes.
> Why would you send such ... if I am so incompetent?
I don't remember using the word "incompetent" in this post. In fact,
I rather complimented your managerial expertise. On the other hand,
my application was sent before you (apparently) put words in Rosie
O'Donnell's mouth which disenfranchise certain drum corps arts (rifle
and sabre).
That changed everything. Before that, I thought you were just a
little misguided (as with many directors). I even chose to presume
you just "went along" with the band instrument rules changes, which I
suppose may have been a little naive. I'm a little out of the loop
here in Utah, so you'll have to excuse me.
Now it is clear you, as a director with no apparent creative
experience, feel qualified to tinker with the indigenous equipment of
guard. You want to get rid of the rifle and sabre arts.
Frankly, I think you've gone off the deep end. What exactly in your
education and experience makes you think you are qualified to make
such critical decisions for your corps, let alone this activity?
> As for the rest of this ...
>
> Well ....
>
> it is really not possible to respond.
Certainly isn't for me. Not in any way that your and your colleagues
would listen, anyway.
> The attacks are of a kind that nothing I could ever say will sway opinion.
Correct. It would take a lot more than words at this point for me to
believe you are sorry for your mistakes (or even believe you make
them).
> All I can do is do what I do ..
> for the Crossmen ..
> for the Cadets ..
> with the US Scholastic Band Assoc.
> and with DCI (as a board member)
You poor, empowered man. :)
> I will continue to do the best I can ...
> and to do what I believe is correct.
Then God help us.
> I appreciate the opinions of those who think the activity needs to " return to
> the roots", but alas, I do disagree. You know that and so do I.
Geez, George, even Broadway returns to its roots. But drum corps
never will because its politically incorrect? Don't you think that's
a little chicken-shit?
> So ...
>
> We continue on ...
>
> Have a great end of summer!!!
Not sure I had a summer, but thanks. You too.
Stuart E. Rice
ser...@juno.com
http://www.geocities.com/marchingresearch
SILVERDOTS
did
you expect it to end with? Lionel Richie and the Rockettes? >>
Crying at the end of a show in which a little girl gets the back of her head
blown off has what to do with percussion talent?
It has what to do with the comparison of percussive talents?
That show was no different than the ones of excrement on the floor passing as
*art*. The purpose is supposed to be an *olympic games* of percussion. Are we
supposed to imagine an exploding head as a new timbre of WGI percussion
instrument?
Ken Mazur
CA24K
Not a bitter asshole, just proving a point. It's nice that someone noticed that
if peolpe let this get to them, there would be mass suicides at finals! Just
tired of people who never had to eat canned pears for an entire week, complian
about anything. But aparently you are one of these people. Sorry if I offended
you
BIG Al.
SILVERDOTS
make me. Have at it.
<<go watch some tv or have some decaf.
Im too busy painting here at the boards. Ive got david letterman on in the
background as noise.
<<everyone is tired of this bull$#%^$
Its just starting. The kids are starting to get wind of what George has been
doing.
if you have suggestions. -------post them .------------
Many times.
if you have a review -----------post it .-----------
*Who Took The Drum Out of Drum Corps* 1997 Ramd smposium.
<<if there was something this summer that you dug -----tell about it..
No shows within 150 miles of here. All of them were cancelled this year. Last
year left me thinking drum corps will be out of business in a bit. And it
doesnt need to be that way. Like Apple Computer, corps have an aggressive
following and name brand recognition of those that have been in it.
<<if you have a memory of old drum corps --------let us all hear about it..
I remeber being instructed how to play with good technique to compete in real
competitions where we had control of the score sheets and our placements.
if you have a show idea ,,, -------------post it. >>
Take design off the score sheets and put back the word *demand* with well
worded definitions that can set up a comparison standard across the country so
everyone is on the same page. This was done in percussion when NARD was formed
way back when and needs to be done again.
My ideas are philosophical. I dont claim to be one thing and act in another as
does Hopkins on competition. Hypocrites dont last long in business and I am
merely pointing out what is said and what is being sold. If Hophead is so
concerned about *kids* then get him to change the score sheets so their
performance is whats rewarded, not some uneducated art design staff. This one
item affects marketing and changes the focus from tax payer band booster money
to an established gate in the entertainment business.
Ken Mazur
Rick and Sue Deschene
>
<snip>
> I don't remember using the word "incompetent" in this post. In fact,
> I rather complimented your managerial expertise. On the other hand,
> my application was sent before you (apparently) put words in Rosie
> O'Donnell's mouth which disenfranchise certain drum corps arts (rifle
> and sabre).
>
<snip>
I think it's important to cite the article in which these comments were
made, for those who may have missed it while on tour, so that they can
read it and make up their own minds. I also think it's important to note
that the author of the article confused the issue by failing, either
deliberately or accidentally, to directly attribute the comments to
George Hopkins. (It *appears* that the comment is attributed to him; but
it's also paraphrased, which means that you can't assume that was what
he said. The author isn't named, so I guess the best we can do is say
that the author of the article said it.) I also think it's important to
note, before anyone else decides to go after Rosie, that the wording is
very unclear as to what actually transpired. What kind of "promotion"
are we talking about? I would be interested in knowing precisely what
Rosie had to say about this.
Interview with George Hopkins
http://www.bluedevils.org/programs/a/2001/hopkins.asp
It's also worth noting Bill Cook's response to this here in RAMD; here's
a link to the post from the Google archive:
Re: BILL COOK: Is Blast! book for Rosie?
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=BILL+COOK:+Is+Blast!+book+for+Rosie%3F+group:rec.arts.marching.drumcorps+insubject:Bill+insubject:Cook&hl=en&safe=off&rnum=1&selm=20010724175030.08639.00004096%40nso-cg.aol.com
I think it's also worthwhile, for anyone who missed out the first time
around, to look up the "Hoppy sez...???" thread on Google and read all
the various replies. Interesting stuff.
Sue
Rick and Sue Deschene
>
> << Shock art? Hahahaha. Not even. The show was about the Holocaust -- What
> did
> you expect it to end with? Lionel Richie and the Rockettes? >>
>
> Crying at the end of a show in which a little girl gets the back of her head
> blown off has what to do with percussion talent?
> It has what to do with the comparison of percussive talents?
>
OK. So I assume we're *not* talking about Union High School's winter
guard show on the Holocaust from the late '80s? That's a very different
story, IMO.
Sue
CHEZ
SILVERDOTS wrote:
> <<go watch some tv or have some decaf.
> Im too busy painting here at the boards. Ive got david letterman on in the
> background as noise.
at least you have it on... thanks for watching , or listening.
hahaha
ALAN CHEZ
>
>
Mike
DING, nail, head
Sharon, you re my new hero
The Other Mike...................
PhD in BS
Proud member of the Old Pharts Brigade.......
DRUMAJOR
> if you have a review -----------post it .-----------
I posted this a while back and judging by the eMail I've
received from corps members it can't be reposted enough. While I
don't care for everything I see in Drum Corps today, the kid in me
still want's to be on the field.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Drum Corps Moments at Corps at the Crest
---------------------------------------------------------------
Corps at the Crest - DRUM CORPS MOMENTS - July 14th, 2001
(the ramblings of an old phart overcome with emotion)
The first of many July 14th Drum Corps moments happened during
a late afternoon ramd lunch. Great company and conversation
reminded me that Drum Corps cuts a swath across decades like no
other activity, that there are very few "off topic" topics when
Drum Corps is the center of attention, that Drum Corps is still
a unique experience.
The next Drum Corps moment came on the way to the stadium from
the restaurant. A drive wheel on my wheelchair got stuck in a
rut and a group of Drum Corps kids immediately came to my
rescue... I was rolling again in seconds... if ya'll are
reading this, thanks again!
When Drum Corps meet at a stadium for competition something
happens that cannot actually be described, but if you've done
Corps, you know what it is. There's a shift of perception.
You can feel it, almost taste it... the Drum Corps spirit. As
soon as I was in the stadium area I knew I was in the presence
of something greater than any individual: Drum Corps.
I spent the 1/2 hour leading up to the competition scouring the
venue in my black/blue/gray electric chair. RAMD? No one reads
RAMD? HAH! To all the folks that waved, NICE TO MEET YOU!
[WAVES AND SMILES]
To all the folks I met and chatted with, NICE TO MEET YOU!
[WAVES AND SMILES]
I found the Renegades drum line warming up. (See the first
page of photos.) I wanted to ask them to turn around and face
the sun so I could get some better pics, but after seeing the
expressions on their faces, well, let's just say that's one
bunch of animals I didn't want to anger! ;-)
I weaved my way around the campus soaking up the good old Drum
Corps spirit, Corps getting ready, Corps warming up. Drum Corps
is clearly alive and well in SoCal! The stadium was SOLD OUT!
I spent the next five hours in Drum Corps Heaven...
---------------------------------------------------------------
RENEGADES - You may enter the field for competition!
LOUD IS GOOD! Old Pharts indeed! They put on a great show,
definitely hit the highest notes of all the Corps, and all I can
say is the old pharts in other parts of the country better start
practicing now - because a steam roller is on it's way east!
The West Coast is back across the board - I, II, III, seniors,
neighborhoods, communities - Drum Corps has sparked!
---------------------------------------------------------------
ALLIANCE - Most improved corps!
My wife and I were amazed at the amount of improvement in ALL
the SoCal corps since the West Covina competition, but DARN!
What did you do? Practice in your sleep? 'Nuf said!
Another GREAT SHOW!
---------------------------------------------------------------
SANTA CLARA VANGUARD CADETS - The life blood of SCV!
Again, incredible improvement since West Covina!
What did you do? Practice in your sleep? 'Nuf said!
And the DRUM LINE! Bravo!!
---------------------------------------------------------------
SEATTLE CASCADES - Look out world, don't get mowed down!
There is a pivotal year in every great Drum Corps, the point
where experience catches up with exuberance. You're there!
Keep your focus and determination and the finals will be yours!
Great DRUM LINE! Bravo!!
---------------------------------------------------------------
IMPULSE - Still hummin' the tunes days later!
Did I mention how much all these Drum Corps have improved in
the last couple weeks? THESE CORPS JUST KEEP GETTING BETTER
EVERY DAY! Keep it up, Impulse, and don't let the judges get
you down - it showed Saturday night. Forget them! They can't
have it both ways forever.
Fabulous DRUM LINE! Bravo!!
---------------------------------------------------------------
INTERMISSION - Phew! Does it get any better than this?
Business first... temperature was dropping below 77 degrees...
selected a long sleeve Renegades shirt...
LOUD IS GOOD!
With an extra layer of insulation I zoomed back to the staging
area and decades vanished with an injection of the Drum Corps
spirit.
Drum Corps. Everywhere.
Corps were warming up all over the college campus and the
level of professionalism displayed everywhere was astounding.
Our future is in good hands. It was an honor to observe the
finest youth on our planet, up close, taking care of business.
These are kids to be proud of.
BACK TO THE STADIUM
Met some more RAMDiers in the souvenir area [Heh...] and
rounded out my Drum Corps t-shirt collection. ;-)
** RANT ALERT **
What I don't understand is the slow souvenir sales!
HellooOOooOOoo! This is DRUM CORPS! This is FUND RAISING!
A high voltage cattle prod to each and every one of the ~4,500
people that walked away from Corps at the Crest without a t-shirt!
Time to go back to the stadium...
---------------------------------------------------------------
BLUE DEVILS B - This is DRUM CORPS!
Again, another example of dedication and massive improvement
since the West Covina competition. I want to know what you kids
are eating! By this time my wife was as excited as I was.
"The drum lines! The horn lines! The dancing! THE DRUM LINES!"
Yes folks, Drum Corps is screaming on the West Coast! The
singular defining element of Drum Corps that separates it from
all other activities is kicking major butt... DRUM LINES!
---------------------------------------------------------------
MANDARINS - Tight!
That was Mrs. DRUMAJOR's singular comment and it was soon heard
echoing around the stadium... the audience was united: TIGHT!
Start to finish, the Mandarins are a class act.
---------------------------------------------------------------
ESPERANZA - The Corps that just keeps on getting better!
I've never seen more improvement in more organizations in such a
short period of time. Ever. These are not average Drum Corps...
these are Drum Corps on a mission! The combined statement is
becoming clear as a bell. And the DRUM LINES are amazing!
---------------------------------------------------------------
PACIFIC CREST - A formula for success!
Pacific Crest - Great competition and tremendous improvement!
This Drum Corps has marched up to the top 12 door in record time,
Pacific Crest is knocking very loud as the decades long drought in
public music education is about to end. Up and down the West Coast
grass roots movements are in place. Public school music programs
are being rejuvenated and Drum Corps membership is on the rise.
Pacific Crest is an excellent example of how the combined efforts of
schools, kids, parents and communities can work together to save our
culture from drowning in mediocrity. I see this happening with the
smaller Corps too, and for the first time in years I am excited for
the future of music in general and Drum Corps in particular.
---------------------------------------------------------------
SANTA CLARA VANGUARD - I'm speechless!
When Santa Clara Vanguard entered the field my wife commented
"uhhhh, I get the feeling I haven't seen anything yet..."
I smiled and turned my attention to the field.
How can I describe the 2001 SCV? My wife says
The DRUM LINES!
The Brass!
The DRUM LINES!
The Dancing! (!)
The DRUM LINES!
The Drum Corps quote of the night came from a Blue Devils
grandmother after SCV finished performing:
"I wouldn't want to have to judge these corps."
Indeed! The 2001 SCV is fabulous - championship material!
The DRUM LINE IS AMAZING!
---------------------------------------------------------------
THE CADETS - Thank you for coming to California!
Someone sitting near me said "That was the best Marching Band I've
ever heard." "Band" I asked? "Well, DUH, what didn't you get about
the DRUM SETS?" I have to agree. I was expecting to get my Drum
Corps self blown away - didn't happen.
When the Cadets started performing I realized I hadn't heard a world
class band since 1967. Specifically, the 1967 All-American Marching
Band. Anyone who says the Cadets are a Drum Corps has not heard a
world class band, or, doesn't have the musical ears to distinguish
the difference between band and corps. The sound of a great band is
unique and unmistakable.
The Cadets put on a fine show. I was impressed at the fullness of
the sound... very close to my memories of the 1967 All-American
Band. The Cadets, however, are not a Drum Corps.
I was apprehensive as the Blue Devils entered the field...
---------------------------------------------------------------
BLUE DEVILS - The Corps most prepared to take the title!
The Blue Devils start to warm up... DRUM LINE! DRUM CORPS!
Not only was *I* relieved, the rest of the crowd went nuts too!
The polite ovations offered to the Cadets were replaced with raw
Drum Corps fever. You could feel the tension in the air...
? SCV ? BD ? SCV ? BD ? SCV ? BD ? SCV ? BD ?
BD's first musical statement echoed throughout their performance and
the message was clear: WE ARE Drum Corps! The audience soaked it up
and I was in Drum Corps heaven. BD is a notch above the rest and
has the talent to hold the lead for the next three weeks.
---------------------------------------------------------------
(after the scores were announced)
The Blue Devils were formed up for an unscheduled victory concert.
I drove my wheelchair onto the track and parked it out of the way
behind the corps, and then a couple of the BD sops stepped aside and
motioned me into the circle.
Words cannot describe the sound of a world class horn line at a
distance of 6 feet! The BD sops played their hearts out, and when
they nailed it, it blended, the sound was so good, it made me cry.
Thank you, Blue Devils.
It was an unexpected pleasure, and a perfect end to a wonderful
evening of Drum and Bugle Corps in Southern California.
LOUD IS GOOD!
BUT WAIT! The Renegades were going to play a concert in the
parking lot! With tears still wet on my face I zoomed out to
the parking lot just in time to hear the Renegades.
WooHoo! A full evening of Drum Corps topped off with the
Blue Devils and Renegades back to back, up close, AND LOUD!
This, is Drum Corps Heaven!
Ryan Turner's exuberance, if anything, was understated in his
excellent review. The emotional impact of July 14th is so strong
in my heart this old phart is still wiping away tears.
A most sincere and heartfelt thanks to the Blue Devils and Pacific
Crest sops for taking the time to chat with me.
A formal salute, a bow, and a standing ovation to all the Drum Corps
members, staff, support crew and parents.
SEE YOU ALL NEXT YEAR!
---------------------------------------------------------------
First photos are up, more pics and zips soon. Renegades,
Alliance, Santa Clara Vanguard Cadets, Seattle Cascades:
http://www.JeffreyCJohnson.net/pics/pc/index.html
Did I mention how great all the drum lines were?
I LOVE DRUM CORPS! ôżô
Jeffsjetta
look bad, new and old school....
><< shut up. >>
>
>make me.
My how mature.
>
>>><< start a new cicut where everyone plays 5 stroke rolls and ratamacues for
>12
>minutes and leave us alone.
> >>
>
>But little one.....we CAN play 5 stroke rolls and ratamacues.
I can...as well as i can play the new stuff....bottom line if kids dont get
taught this at elementary levels, they wont learn it. There is many problems
with schoolmusic programs today that begin well before the target of your wrath
even gets involved.
>Your problem eh? Paint your face and run around some more. Its noce to see
>young people like you used so easily by people like Hopkins.
paint your face...good lord great retort...and not all kids are used By
hopkins...he has 2 corps...there hundreds of others he has no say over.
Whats the
>matter......Cesario didnt sell you enough face powder to be pretty for the
>judges?
so I take it you hate Phantom 87? great solid drum corps show and he had a hand
in it......so bottom line you bale all on George, Cesario and maybe Zingali.
Wow....i hope they can handle the burden.
>
>Ken Mazur
>
Jeff...who enjoys a good debate when not handled like a ranting and raving
monkey
>
>
>
>
>
>
Steve Lucas
> <<<<Overall since the 80's, his corps has
> entertained me the most of any and none have had consistency as great as his.
> >>>>
>
> WRONG ANSWER!!!! Blue Devils have been more consistent, and have more trophies,
> awards, accolades, and higher consistent placement than do the Cadets/Cadets of
> Bergen County/Garfield Cadets........
>
> Geoffrey
In the last 20 years...
Average DCI Finals placement for the Cadets - 2.35 (8 Titles)
Average DCI Finals placement for the Blue Devils - 2.6 (6 Titles)
Still, it remains disputable as to which corps is "better."
But let's look at the final totals...
Overall, BD has 10 DCI Titles. The Cadets have 8, PLUS
10 National Championships which were won before the Blue
Devils were even in existence. (And don't think for a
minute that those don't count...they sure as hell counted
back then, and we are after all talking about "trophies,
awards, and accolades.") These totals also include
three 3-peats (1948-1950, 1960-1962 and 1983-1985).
Point...Excellence goes back MUCH further than DCI.
SL
Benny
visual
designers with no art credentials. <<
maybe members today dont feel that are are sacrificing time and money. maybe
members today dont feel like they are being used. maybe members today couldnt
care less if their visual designer has art credentials. i know i dont feel
that way at all. i love where the activity is at today. it is very possible
to learn visual design from people who already know what they are doing instead
of going through art school.
>>We were honed to perform with far better
technical challenges and physical techniques that you<<.
and we today are honed to perform far more difficult drill books than were
performed in the pre-90's era.
>>The gap is so wide now
that everyone is talking about it. <<
no, not everyone. just the negative bitchers and moaners.
Benny
Highland HS '96-'00
Riverside CC '00-??
CopperStar '01
Stuart Rice
> I think I remember this line of conversation two years ago when I was a more
> avid member of the RAMD bitching club.
>
> I doubt I supported it then.. I still don't.
Sounds like you have been examining the analogy far longer than I have
- I doubt you'll find me doing the same before this Summer. If you
have an interest in the attention being given to the comparison,
perhaps you should censure (or congratulate) yourself for contributing
to it so long ago.
> Stuart, for the sake of the rest of our sanity, don't conjure the name
> hitler when referring to Hopkins.
Stefani:
1. RAMD is an unmoderated newsgroup, and your intolerance does not
make you a candidate for moderation.
2. I notice you haven't challenged my comparison examples. It would
be appropriate for you to do so before further criticism.
> We've discussed it to death EVERY BLESSED YEAR.
Sounds like it hasn't been very productive. Perhaps some research is
in order.
> No one is going to buy into it now that didn't buy into it before. Drop it.
So you settled the matter irrevocably, and have personally come to the
conclusion that nothing comparable - nothing "eliminationist" - is
happening in drum corps. Good for you. However, I disagree. If you
don't study the argument, you really have no authority to criticize
it.
Stefani, I understand it is difficult to discuss controversy on such
ugly terms. Thanks to yet another bright idea coming from an
influential yet unqualified source, we are talking about the life or
death of two indigenous drum corps arts. We are groping with
difficult issues which affect the future of drum corps, and frankly, I
don't think we can examine too many contexts or analogies to help us
understand them.
Do you understand the doctrine or methods of antisemitic
discrimination that led to the holocaust? Do you understand the minds
of German citizens that put Hitler into office? If you don't you're
missing a key piece of information about how otherwise reasonable
people can support terrible ideas. If you don't learn from history,
you'll repeat it (and if you're a writer, you can actually help others
repeat it).
If you don't understand the merit of the comparison, let me suggest a
book: "Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the
Holocaust," by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen. In particular, look up the
term "eliminationist" in the index, which is generously treated.
*Compromising* the brass is one thing. ELIMINATING two artistic
traditions - rifle and sabre arts - in the name of a public perception
which may or may not affect perception of the drum corps arts is
entirely another.
If you can find a more relevant comparison, I'd like to hear it.
Stefanie Kressaty
IT IS TIME FOR YOUR BEATING.
YOU DON'T HAVE A CHOICE.
PLEASE GO THERE NOW OR YOU WILL BE DRAGGED THERE BY YOUR TAIL AND HELD DOWN
WHILE HE BEATS THE CRAP OUT OF YOU THEN WE'LL LEAVE YOU THERE SO YOU'RE
READY FOR NEXT YEAR.
DON'T MAKE US COME LOOKING FOR YOU.
thank you.
Stefanie
Ryan H. Turner
<<sigh>>
Well, Mr. Rice, at least you tried.
Ryan H. Turner--"The Voice of Southern California!"/Former VK Drum Major in
1986 and 1987
Designer, Instructor, Motivator, Adjudicator for ALL pageantry
And a proud papa to boot!! Just don't boot too hard!!
Phrenchy
> <snip>
>
> OK. So I assume we're *not* talking about Union High School's winter
> guard show on the Holocaust from the late '80s? That's a very different
> story, IMO.
>
> Sue
FYI
they are talking about Carolina Thunder's show from 2 years ago
--
Jason C Frith
Wad Squad '92-96
Crown '95
Email: <ja...@frith.com>
http://jason.frith.com
http://wadsquad.cjb.net
Jeffsjetta
century is still off base.Now if george were to go snap and start killing
people who didnt live up to what he wants in his marching society, then the
comparison can be made.
Aaron
"Harrison" <hsr...@earthlink.net-nospam> wrote:
> The drill movement is impressive, but nothing is ever clean.
Cavaliers seemed pretty clean this year and last year. I guess we have
a different idea of what clean entails.
>There is also a lack of individual technique.
Depends on what you consider individual technique.
> The things I enjoyed doing, such as playing enjoyable music and marching
> clean drill, just aren't part of the activity.
Once again, I think our ideas of what "clean drill" is differs. I've
watched some "old school" shows that were so dirty that it made watching
difficult. Sorry, but it's hard for me to enjoy the music when the
visual isn't keeping up.
Let's both agree that dirty marching and bad music isn't limited to the
past 5-10 years, because it isn't.
>So I have chosen to occupy myself with other things that I enjoy.
Many could learn from you.
> To this day, nothing excites me more than a solid, loud brass line playing a
> sweet tune. I just love the sound that has disappeared.
I guess we have a different definitions of what loud is and what a
"sweet tune" entails. I happen to think Glassmen's ballad was one of
the most beautiful tunes I've ever heard (althought finals week had
issues). I also happened to think that Crossmen were pretty f*cking
loud.
> Life is too short to watch DCI and bitch about it-so I'm done.
Well said.
--
* Aaron Frost, Blue Stars *
Aaron
ser...@juno.com (Stuart Rice) wrote:
> People who are disenfranchised, people who care, people who have made
> a positive contribution like Ken Mazur,
Since when was bitching on RAMD considered a *positive contribution*?