Sexist? or Traditional?
michelle huddleston
because the Cavies seem to have the opportunity to win DCI this year.In
the year 2000, an organization that blocks females from joining maybe
should re-think its recruiting .
Sissyjane
S Muncy100
like there wouldn't be anything wrong with an all female organization.
<BR>
Paul Muncy
W.Da...@worldnnet.att.net
is absolutely no sexist intent. The guys in the corps choose to be
with all males for the fratenal and male only bonding experience the
group provides. As well as to experience the excellence that the group
has achieved. There were many all male/female corps in the past that
have gone by the wayside due to fact that it is difficult to recruit all
males or females for this activity. Would you want to go on tour with
all women for 60 days? Probably not if you had a choice. There are
about 100 corps in the country and if 2 are all male...so be it.
Females have opportunities in 99% of the corps competing. So they are
not blocked from anything except membership in the Cavies or Scouts.
They can experience all that corps has to offer in any of the top
groups. All male is a traditional aspect of these groups NOT sexist.
Skywnch320970
correct. The Cavaliers and Madison Scouts started from Boy Scout troops.
There is nothing wrong with a fraternal organization. Having marched in a
co-ed corps, Phantom, and working for several years with Cavaliers, it is
amazing to see the differences in philosophy between the corps. Honestly, the
Cavies have a much better philosophy, and the guys understand it! They have
more respect for the organization, and the activity. There have been several
all-female drum and bugle corps and DCI in the past had an "all-girl" champion.
Unfortunately, these corps did not have the fan base, or financial backing to
be long term successful. There is one active all-female corps left, the
Bandettes. So, are they guilty of sexism, too? I really think this is a tired
argument that should be put to rest. By the way, Bill, if you read this, hope
all is well in Iowa.
BOY1230
corps,and beat the Cavaliers, Lord knows we could use another
corps!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
SBurstall
I'm no lawyer (thank God) but from what I've heard regarding college sports,
unless the organization is recieving government funding, then the corps would
have to abide under the Title IX ruling. Since drum corps are non-profit,
independent organization, they don't need to.
But the counter arguement would be that "seperate, but equal" responce. A
counter arguement would be the co-ed corps that have a lot more championships
under thier belts then the total or Scouts and Cavies combined, or why Ventures
have won Class A championships for so many years.
Like other posts have said, you're more than welcomed to start a all-female
corps with the high quality staff the other have. Heck, with the "go girl"
attitude these days and the "success" of the women soccer team in Atlanta, you
might have a chance.
- Steve
FT
Does anyone have a problem with all male drum corps? I'm only
asking because the Cavies seem to have the opportunity to win
DCI this year.In the year 2000, an organization that blocks
females from joining maybe should re-think its recruiting .
Sissyjane
I noticed you left out the Bandettes, an all female corps.
Along the lines of your thinking, maybe they should re-think
their recruiting policy as well.
And while we are on the subject, why is NOT okay to have an all
male organization in the year 2000 but it is okay to have an all
female one?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
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Frank Schoenbach
huddleston <sissy...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Does anyone have a problem with all male drum corps? I'm only asking
>because the Cavies seem to have the opportunity to win DCI this year.In
>the year 2000, an organization that blocks females from joining maybe
>should re-think its recruiting .
>
>Sissyjane
Nothing wrong with it at all. I've been involved with all male corps,
coed corps and all girl corps. They're all good things, all have
their own brand of uniqueness. The corps of one gender all have a
special pride in being something different, although not that long
ago, that was the norm.
No, it's not sexist at all. It's a tradition that was here long
before any of us and will continue long after we're gone.
I wish there were more all girl corps, I was involved with one of the
last ones to have existed. Now all that's left is the Bandettes. They
are very proud of being the only one.
There are also several one-race corps, mainly Afro-American, from the
inner cities of several major cities across the country. They're not
wrong either. They are, I feel, the last of the neighborhood corps,
the ones that are set up as real youth groups for the right reasons of
giving the kids something special to do with their time and teaching
them positive life lessons.
When you look at drum corps, you have to look at the total community.
Everyone organization is different in how they serve their members and
they all do great things. Sure some allow only the best musicians and
performers they can get. Others allow anyone with some kind of
experience, others teach you from scratch. They are what makes up the
whole, if one type would vanish, if would adversely affect the rest.
Frank
Frank Schoenbach
Webmaster
Racine Kilties
WEA WINNEA BEA DAUNTED!!!!
RDeschene
<sissy...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Does anyone have a problem with all male drum corps? I'm only asking
>because the Cavies seem to have the opportunity to win DCI this year.In
>the year 2000, an organization that blocks females from joining maybe
>should re-think its recruiting .
>
Do I have a problem with it? In a word, no.
Sue
Steve Spang
> Does anyone have a problem with all male drum corps? I'm only asking
> because the Cavies seem to have the opportunity to win DCI this year.In
> the year 2000, an organization that blocks females from joining maybe
> should re-think its recruiting .
Why? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
--
Steve Spang
RGortowski
The Cavaliers would not be the Cavaliers if they were co-ed. The entire fabric
of the corps revolves around it being an all-male fraternal experience. Having
marched with Blue Rock (Div 1 co-ed corp) and the Cavaliers, I can attest to
this fact.
Rich
Kenny Frank
>because the Cavies seem to have the opportunity to win DCI this year.In
>the year 2000, an organization that blocks females from joining maybe
>should re-think its recruiting .
>
DANGER DANGER FLAIMBAIT!!
Daniel O'Neal
michelle huddleston wrote:
> Sissyjane
michelle huddleston
the group!
Sissyjane
dalazz
This is an old question, and pointless to debate.
GOOOOOOOOOOOOO CAVALIERS!!!!!!!!!!!!
-A Overjoyous girlfriend
Steve Spang
> I was merely asking a question,not stating an opinion if you read the post to
> the group!
Asked and answered ... 8-)
--
Steve Spang
Jay Mendoza
> There are also several one-race corps, mainly Afro-American, from the
> inner cities of several major cities across the country
And if I'm not mistaken, don't you have to be of Asian decent to be in the
Mandarins?
--
Jay Mendoza
Poteet HS, Mesquite, TX
ClassActionBand
from Sacramento, California had been an all Asian corps for a very long time.
In the past few years, they became more ethnically diverse in their membership.
I believe this occured as a result of another Sacramento corps, the
Freelancers, going inactive. If someone out there knows better, please correct
me.
The Freelancers was founded as an all-girl corps, then later became co-ed.
I don't know any of the details of how this developed. Anyone know?
--Bob
>Nothing wrong with it at all. I've been involved with all male corps,
>coed corps and all girl corps. They're all good things, all have
>their own brand of uniqueness. The corps of one gender all have a
>special pride in being something different, although not that long
>ago, that was the norm.
>
>No, it's not sexist at all. It's a tradition that was here long
>before any of us and will continue long after we're gone.
>
>I wish there were more all girl corps, I was involved with one of the
>last ones to have existed. Now all that's left is the Bandettes. They
>are very proud of being the only one.
>
>There are also several one-race corps, mainly Afro-American, from the
ClassActionBand
abortion, capital punishment, creationism/evolution, and the meaning of life
are all "old questions." But they are still very much up for debate.
For the record, I am opposed to any corps being required to be co-ed or to
be required to accept members of any race, even if it does violate some code or
rule related to equal opportunity, nonprofit status, or whatever. The original
poster may just be a new fan (or potential corps member) asking a question. An
"old question" to you may be a new question to someone else.
--Bob
Steve Spang
> Since when are old questions pointless to debate?? Questions debating
> abortion, capital punishment, creationism/evolution, and the meaning of life
> are all "old questions." But they are still very much up for debate.
> For the record, I am opposed to any corps being required to be co-ed or to
> be required to accept members of any race, even if it does violate some code or
> rule related to equal opportunity, nonprofit status, or whatever. The original
> poster may just be a new fan (or potential corps member) asking a question. An
> "old question" to you may be a new question to someone else.
Hear, hear, Bob. If you don't like it, move on. To each his/her own.
--
Steve Spang
dalazz
GOOOOOOO CAVALIERS!!!!!!!!!
TessAyashe
>From: michelle huddleston sissy...@yahoo.com
>Date: 7/30/2000 2:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3983C851...@yahoo.com>
>
>Does anyone have a problem with all male drum corps? I'm only asking
>because the Cavies seem to have the opportunity to win DCI this year.In
>the year 2000, an organization that blocks females from joining maybe
>should re-think its recruiting .
>
>Sissyjane
>
>
>
JUST GOT home from a weekend away... I guess this discussion will NEVER go
away.... LOL Brings back memories of my thread last summer..... I will
read up then SORRY.... Guess I will feel compeled to add my Feelings again on
this matter.
Carol Ann (Schaffer) Fallon
RDeschene
<sissy...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I was merely asking a question,not stating an opinion if you read the post to
>the group!
>
Eh, what you presented is what's referred to in the news business as a
loaded question. Which comes pretty close to stating an opinion.
Sue
dalazz
their butts, and I doubt they ever will...and what makes women
so sure that they are what can "save" them....get a life...The
Cavaliers are awesome and wonderful for many reasons, and they
have a FABOULOUS staff of people that will "save" their butts,
if they ever need it....why don't women just go cook and leave
the poor boys to their tradition....gosh....women think they
know everything and can do it just like the boys...sorry...but I
can't pee standing up...don't want to....GIVE THIS UP!!!
POOP IS GOOD!!!
-WOMAN...who doesn't want to mess with a good thing...I have
cooking to do!!!!!!
JSodam
Cavs anymore. With the hundred or so coed corps in the country why pick
on the all guy corps? They're not doing anything wrong. Thats the way
its always been, and hopefully the way it always will be. So, in
closing, SPLOOIE!!!
GO GREEN MACHINE!!! and nothing but love for the Scouts as well
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
FT
corps that started out all male; but what about corps that
started out all female?
You also mentioned, in regard to the Cavaliers, that "when the
time is right things will change... Mark my words..." Can we
assume that your position also applies to the Bandettes? Why is
that when it comes to discussing the possible (or proposed?)
change for an all male corps, you don't mention an all female
corps?
Terri Dittrich
dalazzN...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote on 7/30/00 5:37 PM:
> poop
>
>
> GOOOOOOO CAVALIERS!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com
>
Poop is right....
We have to rehash this again.....
-Terri
Steve Spang
> > poop
> >
> >
> > GOOOOOOO CAVALIERS!!!!!!!!!
>
> Poop is right....
>
> We have to rehash this again.....
>
> -Terri
Oh Boy ... here we go on the RAMD-go-round again.
I can just never get enough POOP. 8-)
I hear it's a lot like sex ...
--
Steve Spang
"Klaatu barada nikto"
TessAyashe
>The Cavaliers would not be the Cavaliers if they were co-ed. The entire
>fabric
>of the corps revolves around it being an all-male fraternal experience.
>
>Rich
>
Sorry, I don't buy this... the fabric that makes Cavies who and what they are
"I BELIEVE" goes alot deeper than their male bonding. It is a Drum Corps...
Just like the Skyliners, Hawthorne Caballero's, and every other drum corps that
started out all male.. That was acceptable back then but "I" am sure glad
things evolved for the long waited acceptance of females. It sure saved the
butts of many a corps... and probably will save Cavies Butt someday. I wish
them the best... and when the time is right things will change... Mark my
words...
Carol Ann (Schaffer) Fallon
DC '54 thru Present - Female Sop
RGortowski
>"I BELIEVE" goes alot deeper than their male bonding.
For those of us that marched with them, being an all male corps is a defining
part of our history. You don't have to believe this, but it is true.
> "I" am sure glad
>things evolved for the long waited acceptance of females. It sure saved the
>butts of many a corps... and probably will save Cavies Butt someday.
Maybe in another 52 years....
Rich
Steve Spang
> POOP IS GOOD!!!
>
> -WOMAN...who doesn't want to mess with a good thing...I have
> cooking to do!!!!!!
Now we're getting back to basics ... POOP.
Good for what ails ya, and general all round cure all ...
LiLBlueMelloGrl
Bandettes from Canada!!!!!!!!! they're SO cute!!!!
dcib...@my-deja.com
really cool. I would love to see an all-female corps butt heads with
the best of them. I think it would be great for the drum corps activity.
Louie
P.S. - It's traditional, not sexist.
In article <20000730024342...@ng-cl1.aol.com>,
smun...@aol.com (S Muncy100) wrote:
> We've been over this before, but it's fraternal. Nothin wrong with
that, just
> like there wouldn't be anything wrong with an all female
organization.
> <BR>
>
> Paul Muncy
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jeff Johnson
> dalazz wrote:
>
> > POOP IS GOOD!!!
> >
> > -WOMAN...who doesn't want to mess with a good thing...I have
> > cooking to do!!!!!!
>
> Now we're getting back to basics ... POOP.
>
> Good for what ails ya, and general all round cure all ...
I'm not comfortable with that idea. Maybe Vegas could expound... he
seems to have a handle on certain off topic subjects.
jen swanson
keep the tradition for his long, and I hope it continues that way. I
also look forward to the day that a competitve Div 1 female Corps rises
up to challenge them. I do believe that both sexes are equal in the
world of Drum Corps, and instead of trying to ruin a tradition, why not
start one of your own. Someone mentioned Title IX on here. Title IX
states that IF YOU RECIEVE GOVERNMENT FUNDING THAT YOU MUST PROVIDE
EQUAL EQUIPMENT AND FUNDING FOR BOTH MALES AND FEMALES. It has nothing
to do with non profit, and even if it did, Drum Corps provides equally
for both sexes. I think that some females get a little carried away
when it comes to equality. Yes, equality is a great thing, but to ask
for special treatment in the name of equality is not.
Jen Swanson
SOA Lead Bari 99
Participant in NUMEROUS sports, and other male friendly activities
Frank Schoenbach
tessa...@aol.com (TessAyashe) wrote:
>>
>>The Cavaliers would not be the Cavaliers if they were co-ed. The entire
>>fabric
>>of the corps revolves around it being an all-male fraternal experience.
>
>>
>>Rich
>>
>
>Sorry, I don't buy this... the fabric that makes Cavies who and what they are
>"I BELIEVE" goes alot deeper than their male bonding. It is a Drum Corps...
>Just like the Skyliners, Hawthorne Caballero's, and every other drum corps that
>started out all male.. That was acceptable back then but "I" am sure glad
>things evolved for the long waited acceptance of females. It sure saved the
>butts of many a corps... and probably will save Cavies Butt someday. I wish
>them the best... and when the time is right things will change... Mark my
>words...
>
>Carol Ann (Schaffer) Fallon
>DC '54 thru Present - Female Sop
So Carol...when are you going to go after Bandettes and get them to go
coed? You never did answer that last year.
TessAyashe
>From: Frank Schoenbach fra...@inxpress.net
>Date: 7/31/2000 5:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <kriaos0ec6ln71l0g...@4ax.com>
Frank.... My feelings will never change...NOT EVER.... and I'm not going
after anyone.... not Madison or Cavie or Bandettes. "My Beliefs will always
cover everyone equally...."> " Drum Corps along with every activity in the
world should be open to everyone regardless of Race, Gender or Sexuality".
Didn't you notice that I didn't start this thread (This Year)... but the desire
to be treated equally will never go away. So I'm sure that this will AGAIN get
twisted in a thousand directions and the young lady who asked the question will
get attacked personally... BUT life will go on and one can only hope that
someday this obviously sensitive subject will also be a part history. Surely
getting this far involved alot of people dealing with personal attacks on them
AND long before that feeling discriminated against in some very personal way.
So Frank, I may also die someday, but this won't go away away as long as one
person is uncomfortable with it. Thank God!!
Always
Carol Ann (Schaffer) Fallon
Terri Dittrich
tessa...@aol.com wrote on 7/31/00 6:24 AM:
I think there are only a few of you uncomfortable with it. I'm not at all.
-Terri (female french horn player)
Terri Dittrich
at gijen...@webtv.net wrote on 7/31/00 2:31 AM:
And, as you know Jen, there are plenty of co-ed drum and bugles corps
throughout the country available to female brass players, percussionists
and color guard people. In fact, they'd love to have them!
We don't need to disturb honored traditions.
-Terri
Shreff1
females into the ranks. And anyone who ever marched there will tell you the
same thing - it would NOT be the Cavaliers if it wasn't all male. I marched in
both types of corps, and neither was better, just different. Problem is,
different isn't good anymore in our politically correct, vanilla world. As for
the Bandettes - hang in there, girls! Personally I miss the Capitolaires, Bon
Bons, etc., along with all the other variety so missing from drum corps today.
Bob Shreffler
Norwood Park 1970-73; 1978-79
Cavaliers 1974-76
Spirit of Atlanta 1980
Sunrisr
incidental it is (not just Drum Corps), somebody HAS to try and challenge it
because just because it's a challenge!?!? I believe in equality, but why does
this have to mean co-ed? A good example are the Boy scouts and the Girls
scouts, each with their own benefits, etc. however, you always have some
bonehead trying to part of the other. (Granted, Girl Scouts have those
cookies!!)
BTW, most activities are already Co-ed. Can't we retain some traditions? We
guys (esp. us married ones) NEED a place to get away from the women for a
while!! Where and who else are we going to bitch to? ;-)
And if you can't tell, this is all tongue-in-cheek!!
Scott MacIntyre
B.B.Q. & Cooler Corps. '99-?
Sunrisers '90-'98
Long Island Grenadiers '82-'89
RDeschene
<dalazzN...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
<snip>
>why don't women just go cook
<snip>
For some of us, this is definitely *not* a good idea. (If you'd ever
survived my cooking, you'd get my point.)
Sue
RDeschene
<kiltie...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Poop is right....
>
>We have to rehash this again.....
>
Compost?
Sue
ChiBoyinLA
Mandarins?<<
No.
RDeschene
>Didn't you notice that I didn't start this thread (This Year)... but the desire
>to be treated equally will never go away. So I'm sure that this will AGAIN get
>twisted in a thousand directions and the young lady who asked the question will
>get attacked personally... BUT life will go on and one can only hope that
>someday this obviously sensitive subject will also be a part history. Surely
>getting this far involved alot of people dealing with personal attacks on them
>AND long before that feeling discriminated against in some very personal way.
>So Frank, I may also die someday, but this won't go away away as long as one
>person is uncomfortable with it. Thank God!!
>
Actually, the person who started the thread insists she was only
asking a question, not stating an opinion one way or the other.
Granted, the way she put it, it *was* a loaded question that came
pretty darned close to stating an opinion, but it was still just a
question.
Her basic question was, "Are you uncomfortable with Cavies being
all-male?" (I assume that question would also include Madison.) My
anwer then, and now, is no. Now, if *all* corps were all-male, I would
be uncomfortable with that and consider the activity to be
discriminatory. But with only two all-male corps among all the corps
available, it's not discriminatory because women *can* march corps.
They can't march in those two particular corps, but the range of corps
available to women is pretty darned limitless.
I am no more uncomfortable with Cavies and Madison being all-male than
I am with Bandettes being all-female. Wish the Ventures, among others,
would come back. They were my mom's favorite.
Sue
Terri Dittrich
RDes...@recorder.ca wrote on 7/31/00 1:07 PM:
Wow, we were just talking about Capitolaires and Les Chatelaines.... and
Ventures.
I told Frank S. if I'd lived in Madison, I would have loved to march
Capitolaires.
The sisterhood is just as cool as the brotherhood!
-Terri
RDeschene
<kiltie...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Wow, we were just talking about Capitolaires and Les Chatelaines.... and
>Ventures.
>
>I told Frank S. if I'd lived in Madison, I would have loved to march
>Capitolaires.
>
My mom saw Ventures at Canadian Nationals in Toronto in '78, and
thought they were absolutely wonderful. I think she liked 'em better
than Oakland. I was hurt. (No, not really. ;-)) Mom just loved the
idea of an all-female drum corps . . . and the fact that they pulled
it off so well. She still remembers them. Not necessarily their name,
but she remembers:
"Oh, I just loved that all-girl corps. Who were they?"
"Ventures."
"Ventures, they're the ones. Oh, I just thought they were so
wonderful!"
>The sisterhood is just as cool as the brotherhood!
>
Absolutely, Terri.
FWIW, the idea of joining an all-female corps never appealed to me.
Dunno why, it just didn't. But just because it didn't appeal to me
doesn't mean it won't appeal to anyone else. In fact, I'm sure that it
did/does appeal to other gals--just as marching in an all-male corps
has its appeal for some guys--because people marched, and continue to
march, in those corps.
I think a lot of it has to do with each group having its own special
quality. Some people enjoy the special quality that goes with everyone
in the group being the same gender. They're most comfortable in that
setting, and that's where they're going to thrive. For other people,
that's not as important; they're going to thrive regardless of whether
their group is one, or both, genders, and so they seek out a group
open to both genders.
I like the fact that these choices are available to people.
Sue
Frank Schoenbach
tessa...@aol.com (TessAyashe) wrote:
Then Carol, why is it that you always only mention Cavaliers and
Madison. and not Bandettes until someone reminds you that they do
indeed exist?
>
>Didn't you notice that I didn't start this thread (This Year)... but the desire
>to be treated equally will never go away. So I'm sure that this will AGAIN get
>twisted in a thousand directions and the young lady who asked the question will
>get attacked personally... BUT life will go on and one can only hope that
>someday this obviously sensitive subject will also be a part history. Surely
>getting this far involved alot of people dealing with personal attacks on them
>AND long before that feeling discriminated against in some very personal way.
>So Frank, I may also die someday, but this won't go away away as long as one
>person is uncomfortable with it. Thank God!!
Yes I noticed that Carol. <applause>
btw---I did see your picture in an old Drum Corps News that I have and
the caption that you were the first female soloist in a sr. corps.
That's great, you were a groundbreaker. Just like there have been
groundbreakers in other corps. I happen to have a very special friend
who was the first female in the hornline of two corps. She didn't
seek that out for any personal recognition. It just happened that
way and, yes, it is a great accomplishment.
But...having been in an all male corps, coed corps and working with
an all-girl corps, all I can say is that each is unique and has it's
special sort of pride and place in the activity. Will Scouts and
Cavaliers forever be all male? Maybe, maybe not. But it's not going
to happen any time soon. The Bandettes are going to be all-girl for
the rest of their existence or until Mary Wilson leaves this realm of
existance.
That's just how things are these days and will be for many years to
come.
Frank Schoenbach
Dittrich <kiltie...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>Wow, we were just talking about Capitolaires and Les Chatelaines.... and
>Ventures.
>
>I told Frank S. if I'd lived in Madison, I would have loved to march
>Capitolaires.
>
>The sisterhood is just as cool as the brotherhood!
>
>-Terri
That is so right.....those girls were really special. They were a
family of sisters and had a pride in that unlike anything I've ever
seen. I really miss them.
Frank
TessAyashe
It wasn't an easy decision for them to go Co-ed either... BUT... life and the
fun go on!!!
P.S. Say Hi to Kiltie Dennis for me
Carol Fallon
TessAyashe
>I think there are only a few of you uncomfortable with it. I'm not at all.
>
>-Terri (female french horn player)
>
>
I'm sure... especially since your dream of being a Kiltie came true.....
Realize... Some females may also like to be a Cavie or a Scout.... Just
Maybe!!
Carol
RGortowski
>
>It wasn't an easy decision for them to go Co-ed either... BUT... life and
>the
>fun go on!!!
But not as a junior corps....they died.
Rich
TessAyashe
>be uncomfortable with that and consider the activity to be
>discriminatory.
>
>Sue
>
Many of my feeling stem from growing up during a time when Most corps were ALL
Male... especially in the Horn and Drum Lines. And since I was a Female Horn
player.... especially when I hit the Senior Level.... I remember feeling alot
of pain. I am glad so many woman don't ever have to be faced with that
anymore... It sucked!!
Carol
Terri Dittrich
tessa...@aol.com wrote on 7/31/00 7:49 PM:
I think you think we are young. I am going to be 43 this year. I marched
all year in Norwood Park the only woman in the horn line close to thirty
years ago.
I just wanted to play. I didn't care about any of the other peripheral
bullsh*t. I just wanted to play and those guys were great enough to let me.
Just like I want to play now. No other reason for being there for me.
And these guys (and one other lady) are great enough to let me.
Thanks Kilties!
-Terri
TessAyashe
I started out in a coed Junior corps(for 4 years)with.. "The Bellaires", of
Bellmawr, N.J. till my parents moved. then:
I marched 13 years of Junior corps with "The Belle's of St. Mary's" of
Gloucester, N.J. YES.... all girl... But at that time and age (Starting at
9) you played in the corps from your home town or Parish. after '69 the
"Belle's" opened up their doors to males becoming the "St. Mary's Cadets" I
was a DM and instructor there.
It is surely a different Drum Corps World out there today.
YES... they were all special to me...
then came time for Seniors.... Not much open to me.... Lots of Sr. Corps in
N.J. and Pa. who I loved.... BUT.... I had "!" option open to me... "The
Sunrisers" from Long Island, New York. Many realized that I was there in the
beginning because I had NO other choice.... and wanted to keep competing.
Needless to say it wasn't the best situation for breaking into a new corps.
BUT... eventually friendships were formed that I will always treasure forever
along with accomplishments and great memories.
I am glad that in todays world... Most Females don't have to deal with the
things I was faced with.
Carol Ann (Schaffer) Fallon
Terri Dittrich
tessa...@aol.com wrote on 7/31/00 7:38 PM:
> WOW.... I bet a few of the Kilties also felt just as Cavies and Madison do.
> It wasn't an easy decision for them to go Co-ed either... BUT... life and
> the
> fun go on!!!
>
> P.S. Say Hi to Kiltie Dennis for me
>
> Carol Fallon
>
Let us not forget Carol, it was THEIR decision. I was uncomfortable sitting
in before the vote but they insisted.
I respected their decision either way. I told my friends to vote their
heart and concience.
I am happy that I get to play with them but either way, I would still have
the same respect for those guys.
I don't think Dennis marched this year
but if he marches next year I'll be sure to say HI!
-Terri
Terri Dittrich
tessa...@aol.com wrote on 7/31/00 7:41 PM:
But like I said before, the Kilties voted on allowing women in the horn and
drum line. It was THEIR decision.
I am sure if you asked my very close friends, they'd tell you I told them to
not think of our friendship, but how THEY felt about it.
I tried to be as inobtrustive as possible during their thought processes. I
left for the discussion period and final vote as to not make anyone feel as
though they couldn't speak openly.
-Terri
Steve Spang
> I'm sure... especially since your dream of being a Kiltie came true.....
> Realize... Some females may also like to be a Cavie or a Scout.... Just
> Maybe!!
Wow, I'm just getting fed up with this whole PC thing, people. Why can't we
just march like we used to?
Leave the politics at home, where they belong.
Let's enjoy the music and pageantry for what it is, just that. Gender be
damned! Only the best qualify to take the field.
Cheers ...
--
Steve Spang
"Klaatu barada nikto"
Shreff1
bad my lessons weren't good enough!
RDeschene
>>Now, if *all* corps were all-male, I would
>>be uncomfortable with that and consider the activity to be
>>discriminatory.
>
>>
>>Sue
>>
>
>Many of my feeling stem from growing up during a time when Most corps were ALL
>Male... especially in the Horn and Drum Lines. And since I was a Female Horn
>player.... especially when I hit the Senior Level.... I remember feeling alot
>of pain. I am glad so many woman don't ever have to be faced with that
>anymore... It sucked!!
>
I'm 41, so it's not like I have no idea what those days were like. But
that's not the way it is anymore. Nearly all corps--except for only
two--are open to women. And yet you still begrudge the only two
all-male corps for the choice they offer? Why not begrudge the
all-female corps in the same way?
Sue
michael davis
>
>Let's enjoy the music and pageantry for what it is, just that.
Gender be
>damned! Only the best qualify to take the field.
>
Gee, this thread is back?
Steve, what struck me about your post is the statement that:
"Gender be damned! Only the best qualify to take the field." In
the case of 2 of the top 12 div I corps, gender is the most
fundamental requirement for membership. About 17% of the
potential top-12 marching positions are closed to slightly over
1/2 the population.
Mike
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Terri Dittrich
shr...@aol.com wrote on 8/1/00 9:48 AM:
That is so funny that you mention your drum lessons in your Dad's van.
Your Dad gave us a ride back to our cars Sunday. It was a bunch of us
Kilties and I told Frank S. how we would ride to the Skokie American legion
post in your Dad's van and you would try to teach me how to play
paradiddles. You were/are a good teacher....Such a poor student was I!
-Terri
WAAZZAAPP
You feminist's are disgusting.
John
GWB 4 prez
michael davis
>
>>
>Actually, the person who started the thread insists she was only
>asking a question, not stating an opinion one way or the other.
She seems to be trying to back out of the thread by THAT
statement, given that this was her second sentence:
"In the year 2000, an organization that blocks females from
joining maybe should re-think its recruiting ."
That reads like an opinion to me.
:-)
>Granted, the way she put it, it *was* a loaded question that
came
>pretty darned close to stating an opinion, but it was still just
a
>question.
>
hmmm...see above. :-)
>Her basic question was, "Are you uncomfortable with Cavies being
>all-male?" (I assume that question would also include Madison.)
My
>anwer then, and now, is no. Now, if *all* corps were all-male, I
would
>be uncomfortable with that and consider the activity to be
>discriminatory. But with only two all-male corps among all the
corps
>available, it's not discriminatory because women *can* march
corps.
>They can't march in those two particular corps, but the range of
corps
>available to women is pretty darned limitless.
>
Well, not as limitless as it is for the guys, but oh well. Migfht
as well not start on THIS one again, as once again I'm the
contrarian view here in RAMD. :-)
Jeff DeMello
"Mike Duffy" <mike-...@att.net> wrote in message news:398733B2...@att.net...ClassActionBand wrote:
The Freelancers was founded as an all-girl corps, then later became co-ed.
I don't know any of the details of how this developed. Anyone know?
cavie86
think it is an important question to ask from time to time. As
a former member and a father of a son and daughter I do think
about what I would tell her if she asked why she couldn't be a
Cavalier. (I currently don't have answer.)
Some background, in a number of conversations with Don Warren
(corps founder) he made it clear that if there no reasonable
alternative corps for girls to march, he would have open the
corps to girls. Although what that means now days when people
travel all across the country to march, I am not sure. But at
the time had there been no Phantom, Guardsmen, Imperials, etc.
that would have been the motivation for going co-ed.
Also in 1980-81 the corps was in serious finacial trouble, if it
had not been for the new sponsorship that we found, The
Cavaliers probably would not be around today. Going co-ed would
not have solved that problem.
Ron Allard
My Ex used to make TV dinners taste like radio...
(Sigh)
--
Ron in Vegas
mailto:ron.a...@att.net
"Because there was always something about the Skyliners...
and that music..."
- Donnie Solinger
Senior Drum Corps Tribute site:
http://www.SrCorps.com
Corpsreps.com - The Drum Corps Repertoire Database
http://www.corpsreps.com
TessAyashe
>Date: 8/1/2000 2:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20000801141840...@ng-fd1.aol.com>
LOL.... Not a chance!!
RDeschene
<mdavisN...@ets.org.invalid> wrote:
>RDes...@recorder.ca (RDeschene) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>Actually, the person who started the thread insists she was only
>>asking a question, not stating an opinion one way or the other.
>
>She seems to be trying to back out of the thread by THAT
>statement, given that this was her second sentence:
>
>"In the year 2000, an organization that blocks females from
>joining maybe should re-think its recruiting ."
>
>That reads like an opinion to me.
>
>:-)
>
Exactly. That's why I called it a loaded question. Which is not
against the law, of course. But if you wanna ask a question without
tyring to influence the answers in any way, you just ask a question.
You don't load it up with extras like this:
>Does anyone have a problem with all male drum corps? I'm only asking
>because the Cavies seem to have the opportunity to win DCI this year.In
>the year 2000, an organization that blocks females from joining maybe
>should re-think its recruiting .
(What having a chance to win DCI has to do with anything, I have *no*
idea. Like that makes any difference? A whole bunch of other corps
that are co-ed have a shot at winning the title this year, too.)
All that was a pretty thinly veiled attempt at expressing an opinion,
and, I think, hoping to get others to agree. Or, at the very least,
hoping to unearth some huge (and apparently nonexistent) groundswell
of public opinion against Cavies (and, I would presume, against
Madison) for being all-male. That's a whole lot more than "just asking
a question."
>>Granted, the way she put it, it *was* a loaded question that
>came
>>pretty darned close to stating an opinion, but it was still just
>a
>>question.
>>
>
>hmmm...see above. :-)
>
Yup.
>>Her basic question was, "Are you uncomfortable with Cavies being
>>all-male?" (I assume that question would also include Madison.)
>My
>>anwer then, and now, is no. Now, if *all* corps were all-male, I
>would
>>be uncomfortable with that and consider the activity to be
>>discriminatory. But with only two all-male corps among all the
>corps
>>available, it's not discriminatory because women *can* march
>corps.
>>They can't march in those two particular corps, but the range of
>corps
>>available to women is pretty darned limitless.
>>
>
>Well, not as limitless as it is for the guys, but oh well. Migfht
>as well not start on THIS one again, as once again I'm the
>contrarian view here in RAMD. :-)
>
Re: drum corps not being as limitless for guys as for gals, that's
probably true. But the choices are there, and I appreciate the fact
that those choices are available. Guys can choose to march in a co-ed
corps, or an all-male corps. Gals can choose to march in a co-ed corps
or an all-female corps. I like the fact that those choices are
available. Personally, I preferred marching in a co-ed situation, and
so I did. But my choice is not the choice everyone would make, and I
would never presume to know what's best for someone else. Some people
are more comfortable in a single-gender situation than they are in a
co-ed situation. And, rather than bothering me, I'm happy that for the
people who would choose it, that option is available.
Sue
RDeschene
wrote:
>Would you feminazi hags shut up! They will never turn to coed. Get over it.
>You feminist's are disgusting.
>
Uh, I'm a feminist. I also support Cavies' and Madison's choice to
stay all-male. Believe it or not, being a feminist, and supporting the
rights of women *and* men, are not mutually exclusive terms.
Sue
RDeschene
>On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:19:56 GMT, RDeschene wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 30 Jul 2000 19:56:02 -0700, dalazz
>><dalazzN...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>why don't women just go cook
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>For some of us, this is definitely *not* a good idea. (If you'd ever
>>survived my cooking, you'd get my point.)
>>
>>Sue
>
>My Ex used to make TV dinners taste like radio...
>(Sigh)
>
LOL! Oh, dear . . . *this* sounds familiar. I can boil water without
burning it, but that's about as good as it gets.
Rick is the cook in our family. Wish I could pick it up, but as
talents go, that's one I definitely *do* not have.
Sue
michael davis
Yup! While I happen to agree with her basic opinion, she should
just come out and say it and not phumpher around about it.
>>
>>Well, not as limitless as it is for the guys, but oh well.
Migfht
>>as well not start on THIS one again, as once again I'm the
>>contrarian view here in RAMD. :-)
>>
>Re: drum corps not being as limitless for guys as for gals,
that's
>probably true. But the choices are there, and I appreciate the
fact
>that those choices are available. Guys can choose to march in a
co-ed
>corps, or an all-male corps. Gals can choose to march in a co-ed
corps
>or an all-female corps. I like the fact that those choices are
>available.
I know the Band-ettes exist as an all-girl corps, but I'd hardly
call the choices 'equal' in comparing them to the Cavies and
Scouts. To me, the bottom line is that if a young woman wants to
march in a perennial div I finalist corps she has 2 fewer choices
than the guys. However, I leave it up to those corps themselves
to recognize, if they so choose, that their policy is inherently
discriminatory. If they do not feel like changing, it's certainly
their right to forge ahead as they are (and have been very
successful at), and it really would not affect my enjoyment of
seeing them (whichever makes top 5) on TV.
Mike
Robert Brown
"RDeschene" <RDes...@recorder.ca> wrote in message
news:3988670f...@news.recorder.ca...
Our deal is my wife cooks on the weekdays, I cook on the weekends.
Anybody up for some home made pasta?
Rob
> Sue
RDeschene
<mdavisN...@ets.org.invalid> wrote:
<snip>
>I know the Band-ettes exist as an all-girl corps, but I'd hardly
>call the choices 'equal' in comparing them to the Cavies and
>Scouts. To me, the bottom line is that if a young woman wants to
>march in a perennial div I finalist corps she has 2 fewer choices
>than the guys. However, I leave it up to those corps themselves
>to recognize, if they so choose, that their policy is inherently
>discriminatory. If they do not feel like changing, it's certainly
>their right to forge ahead as they are (and have been very
>successful at), and it really would not affect my enjoyment of
>seeing them (whichever makes top 5) on TV.
>
OK. But let's address another type of discrimination. Because it *is*
discrimination.
Not so long ago, guys weren't encouraged to march color guard because
it was considered "sissy." Forget that that might actually be what a
fellow is best at, and enjoys most. No, if a guy wanted to march
corps, he had to march in the horn or drum line because that's what
"real men" did. Right. Ugh.
Thankfully, at the very least, guard spots were, and are, always open
for guys in Cavies and Madison. And, thankfully, guard spots have
opened up for guys in other co-ed corps, as well. But that's not
consistent. If you look at the overall history of guards like Blue
Devils, Santa Clara and the Cadets--to name just a few--they have not
always had men in their color guards. And there might come a time when
they decide to go all-female again. At least in Cavies and Madison,
guys know that there will always be guard spots open for guys. And I
think that's a good thing.
It almost sounds to me like you're saying that Bandettes could never
be a serious contender, just because they're all-female. I disagree
with that. They may not be right at this very moment, but I don't
believe that it's an impossibility for the future.
Sue
RDeschene
wrote:
>Our deal is my wife cooks on the weekdays, I cook on the weekends.
>
Heh. We'd starve if we did it that way.
>Anybody up for some home made pasta?
>
Me, me! (And poor, starving Rick wouldn't mind a helping, either.)
Sue
JSUdrum78
>stay all-male.
hmm...you called it discrimation in an earlier post.... and to the other women
that brought this subject up: Let's not forget that both corps started as BOY
(not coed) scout troops (hince the scouts in Madison SCOUTS). And
personally...I don't understand why a woman would want to integrate an all male
orginization. I was a member of Boy Scouts when I was younger and a girl
actually tried to join our troop...it just totally blew my mind. I mean I have
no urge to join the all female corps just because it's all female. I don't
think I'm being discriminated against because there is an all female corps or
because there is Girl Scouts and I am not allowed to join. Do you think it is
wrong to have all male college fraternities? Do the women that brought this
subject up feel like they should be able to join an all male college
fraternity? If the women who consistently bring this subject up put as much
thought into creating a successful all female drumcorps as they do in trying to
figure out how they can weasal their way into an all male group (just because
it's all male and they can't be a part of it), then I think we would probably
have a top 6 all female drumcorps. Sorry if I seem harsh, rude, or
sexist....but I'm very opinionated about this subject.
Brian Collis
SOA '99 pit section leader
JSU Marching Southerners
RDeschene
>>Uh, I'm a feminist. I also support Cavies' and Madison's choice to
>>stay all-male.
>
>hmm...you called it discrimation in an earlier post....
I called Cavies' and Madison's choice to stay all-male discrimination?
No, I don't think so. You must have me confused with somebody else.
I've always supported their choice to stay all-male, and as far as I
can recall I've never referred to it as discrimination. I've never
perceived it that way.
I *did* call men not being allowed to march color guard a
discriminatory practice. Is that what you're referring to?
Sue
michael davis
So the other corps should also permit guys in their guards, as it
appears they actually do, even by your point. The great 1/2-page
picture of the Cadets in the Star Ledger Newspaper Sunday
actually focussed in on a guy in the guard, with another right
behind him. Yes, if guys are NOT permitted in a particular guard
it IS discrimination. But, it appears to have changed for the
better in the various corps I saw at Clifton. The point is that
the corps have INDEED seen it to their advantage to open their
guards to guys, which sort of speaks how I believe. I would hope
that the Scouts and Cavies would voluntarily see that it is in
their best interests to open their doors to the excluded half of
the population, but if they do not, it's their choice, as long as
DCI as an organization doesn't care.
>It almost sounds to me like you're saying that Bandettes could
never
>be a serious contender, just because they're all-female. I
disagree
>with that. They may not be right at this very moment, but I
don't
>believe that it's an impossibility for the future.
>
>
No, not at all. What I'm saying is that if a young woman decides
she wants to march a div I finalist level corps for a year or
two, then the Bandettes aren't one of the corps she will look at,
at least today. And, her choices in div I are more limited than
the guys. That's all.
Shreff1
Don Warren (Cavies founder) HAS a daughter, who marched drum corps (Norwood
Park Imperials DM). If THAT didn't get him to go co-ed, I doubt anything will!
There was even a cartoon about it in one of the Cavalier yearbooks from those
years - showing her asking her Dad to go co-ed or she'd have to march with
Belleville (Black Knights).
Some are co-ed, some aren't. Move on...
Bob Shreffler
Norwood Park Imperials 1970-73; 78-79
RDeschene
<mdavisN...@ets.org.invalid> wrote:
>So the other corps should also permit guys in their guards, as it
>appears they actually do, even by your point.
Actually, no. I see it as being a corps' choice as to whether or not
they have guys in their color guards. Just as Cavies and Madison
choose to stay all-male. The thing is, there may come a time when all
the guards that are co-ed now choose to go all-female. Not a high
probability, but it *is* a possibility. (After all, look at the guards
that are co-ed now: Cadets, Blue Devils, Santa Clara, etc. Not so long
ago, they were all-female guards, and had a history of being
all-female. What's to stop them from going back to that, should they
decide that's what they want to do?)
As long as Cavies and Madison are around, guys are guaranteed of
having at least two corps in which they can march color guard. I see
no such guarantees provided by any other corps. They may choose to
admit guys to their guards, but then again, they may choose not to.
The great 1/2-page
>picture of the Cadets in the Star Ledger Newspaper Sunday
>actually focussed in on a guy in the guard, with another right
>behind him. Yes, if guys are NOT permitted in a particular guard
>it IS discrimination. But, it appears to have changed for the
>better in the various corps I saw at Clifton. The point is that
>the corps have INDEED seen it to their advantage to open their
>guards to guys, which sort of speaks how I believe. I would hope
>that the Scouts and Cavies would voluntarily see that it is in
>their best interests to open their doors to the excluded half of
>the population, but if they do not, it's their choice, as long as
>DCI as an organization doesn't care.
>
And, because they've chosen to stay all-male, I'm reasonably certain
that they will continue doing so, because for them, they believe that
it is in their best interest, for their particular organization, to do
so. You may not agree with their choice, but it's a choice they are
free to make. And I can see many reasons, including the guard
question, why it is a good choice for them.
>>It almost sounds to me like you're saying that Bandettes could
>never
>>be a serious contender, just because they're all-female. I
>disagree
>>with that. They may not be right at this very moment, but I
>don't
>>believe that it's an impossibility for the future.
>>
>>
>
>No, not at all. What I'm saying is that if a young woman decides
>she wants to march a div I finalist level corps for a year or
>two, then the Bandettes aren't one of the corps she will look at,
>at least today. And, her choices in div I are more limited than
>the guys. That's all.
>
OK. But that's today. Who's to say if that will be the case five or 10
years from now? I think it's a fair question.
Sue
RDeschene
Oh, and I also said that if there were *no* corps that admitted women,
then the activity *as a whole* would be discriminatory. (And, of
course, you don't have to go back too many decades when that was the
case.) But I can't imagine that I've ever referred to Cavies' and
Madison's decision to stay all-male as being discriminatory . . .
again, because I've never seen it that way.
Sue
michael davis
>
>Actually, no. I see it as being a corps' choice as to whether or
not
>they have guys in their color guards. Just as Cavies and Madison
>choose to stay all-male. The thing is, there may come a time
when all
>the guards that are co-ed now choose to go all-female. Not a
high
>probability, but it *is* a possibility. (After all, look at the
guards
>that are co-ed now: Cadets, Blue Devils, Santa Clara, etc. Not
so long
>ago, they were all-female guards, and had a history of being
>all-female. What's to stop them from going back to that, should
they
>decide that's what they want to do?)
>
I guess nothing. Just as I hope they'd continue to se that it is
in their best interest to remain co-ed, I wish the two all-male
corps would do the same. If they do not, I'm not about to picket
them or anything, as it IS their choice. I personally wish they'd
pick a different choice, that's all.
>
>And, because they've chosen to stay all-male, I'm reasonably
certain
>that they will continue doing so, because for them, they believe
that
>it is in their best interest, for their particular organization,
to do
>so. You may not agree with their choice, but it's a choice they
are
>free to make.
Absolutely agree. I too am free to say that IMO it's a poor
choice, but that's just MHO, nothing more.
>And I can see many reasons, including the guard
>question, why it is a good choice for them.
>
I fail to see them, but obviously they do.
>>
>>No, not at all. What I'm saying is that if a young woman
decides
>>she wants to march a div I finalist level corps for a year or
>>two, then the Bandettes aren't one of the corps she will look
at,
>>at least today. And, her choices in div I are more limited than
>>the guys. That's all.
>>
>OK. But that's today. Who's to say if that will be the case five
or 10
>years from now? I think it's a fair question.
>
Well, my example is of a young woman today looking to march div
I today, that's all. Sure, maybe the Band-ettes will attain div I
finalist status someday, at which time the same sort of issues
would be appropriate the other way round, IMO.
michael davis
>
>Oh, and I also said that if there were *no* corps that admitted
women,
>then the activity *as a whole* would be discriminatory. (And, of
>course, you don't have to go back too many decades when that was
the
>case.) But I can't imagine that I've ever referred to Cavies'
and
>Madison's decision to stay all-male as being discriminatory . .
.
>again, because I've never seen it that way.
>
Sue,
One of those extremes to highlight a point: :-)
By the above reasoning, if 11 of 12 div I finalists (just to
limit it for purposes of this post) were all male, it would be
OK? As long as one corps permitted women the activity itself
would pass your own personal threshhold of not being
discriminatory?
RDeschene
<mdavisN...@ets.org.invalid> wrote:
<snip>
>I guess nothing. Just as I hope they'd continue to se that it is
>in their best interest to remain co-ed, I wish the two all-male
>corps would do the same. If they do not, I'm not about to picket
>them or anything, as it IS their choice. I personally wish they'd
>pick a different choice, that's all.
<snip>
Understood. It's remarkable that any group individual or group makes
*any* of the same choices we would, given all the differences of
opinion that exist. But, as you say, that's really what this boils
down to. You and I--along with a whole lotta different individuals and
groups--ust have different ideas about what constitutes the "best"
choice. And all the various groups reflect that diversity of opinion.
Sue
RDeschene
<mdavisN...@ets.org.invalid> wrote:
>RDes...@recorder.ca (RDeschene) wrote:
>>
>>Oh, and I also said that if there were *no* corps that admitted
>women,
>>then the activity *as a whole* would be discriminatory. (And, of
>>course, you don't have to go back too many decades when that was
>the
>>case.) But I can't imagine that I've ever referred to Cavies'
>and
>>Madison's decision to stay all-male as being discriminatory . .
>.
>>again, because I've never seen it that way.
>>
>
>Sue,
>
>One of those extremes to highlight a point: :-)
>
>By the above reasoning, if 11 of 12 div I finalists (just to
>limit it for purposes of this post) were all male, it would be
>OK? As long as one corps permitted women the activity itself
>would pass your own personal threshhold of not being
>discriminatory?
>
Why are we limiting this question to Div. I finalists, first of all?
Trends are trends. Generally what happens in one division--and not
just among the finalists, but in all the non-finalist corps, too--has
a way of seeping into all the other divisions, too. Are you saying
that the choices have to be limited to the most competitive groups,
and that somehow, all the corps that placed below the Top 12 were
co-ed? Not sure what bearing competitive standings from year to year
has on the question of whether any group should choose to limit its
membership to one gender or the other.
The more realistic question is, if only one corps out of all that
exist opened up its membership to women, would that be enough? And
obviously, for me, the answer is no. But as it pertains to Madison and
Cavies, it's a flaky question, IMO, because what Cavies and Madison
are doing actually sits at the other end of the scale. They're the
only two all-male corps. All other corps are either co-ed or
all-female. So, the opportunities are available to both men and women
to perform in most corps. There are only a few exceptions. And that's
why I don't have a problem with Cavies and Madison being all-male, any
more than I have a problem with Bandettes being all-female. Again, if
*all* corps refused admission to women, then that would bother me
because women would be unable to march corps at all. But the balance
has obviously shifted well past that in the last several decades.
Sue
Robert Brown
Fine. Dinner is at 7:00. We'll make some home made pasta with fresh pesto
sauce (along with some sauted garlic and fresh roma tomatoes). We'll BBQ
some marinated shrimp (marinated in Italian dressing), seven layer salad,
and my daughter will make a peach raspberry pie (yummy). We'll wash it down
with some Chardonnay.
If you can't make that, sunday we'll have either grilled marinated Salmon
(teriyaki sauce) or grilled Cajun Catfish, my grandmothers rice pilaf,
grilled vegies (mushrooms, zuchini, garlic, red pepper), and some french
bread and roasted garlic. We'll wash this one down with some Merlot.
Don't be late.
Rob
> Sue
RDeschene
wrote:
>
>"RDeschene" <RDes...@recorder.ca> wrote in message
>news:3988bc89...@news.recorder.ca...
>> On Wed, 2 Aug 2000 13:37:09 -0700, "Robert Brown" <rob...@kcti.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Our deal is my wife cooks on the weekdays, I cook on the weekends.
>> >
>> Heh. We'd starve if we did it that way.
>>
>> >Anybody up for some home made pasta?
>> >
>> Me, me! (And poor, starving Rick wouldn't mind a helping, either.)
>>
>
>Fine. Dinner is at 7:00. We'll make some home made pasta with fresh pesto
>sauce (along with some sauted garlic and fresh roma tomatoes). We'll BBQ
>some marinated shrimp (marinated in Italian dressing), seven layer salad,
>and my daughter will make a peach raspberry pie (yummy). We'll wash it down
>with some Chardonnay.
>
>If you can't make that, sunday we'll have either grilled marinated Salmon
>(teriyaki sauce) or grilled Cajun Catfish, my grandmothers rice pilaf,
>grilled vegies (mushrooms, zuchini, garlic, red pepper), and some french
>bread and roasted garlic. We'll wash this one down with some Merlot.
>
Darn, I thought you were gonna start shipping. . . .
>Don't be late.
>
Moi? Late? Never.
Heh.
Sue
sai...@one.net
>
>"RDeschene" <RDes...@recorder.ca> wrote in message
>news:3988bc89...@news.recorder.ca...
>> On Wed, 2 Aug 2000 13:37:09 -0700, "Robert Brown" <rob...@kcti.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Our deal is my wife cooks on the weekdays, I cook on the weekends.
>> >
>> Heh. We'd starve if we did it that way.
>>
>> >Anybody up for some home made pasta?
>> >
>> Me, me! (And poor, starving Rick wouldn't mind a helping, either.)
>>
>
>Fine. Dinner is at 7:00. We'll make some home made pasta with fresh pesto
>sauce (along with some sauted garlic and fresh roma tomatoes). We'll BBQ
>some marinated shrimp (marinated in Italian dressing), seven layer salad,
>and my daughter will make a peach raspberry pie (yummy). We'll wash it down
>with some Chardonnay.
>
>If you can't make that, sunday we'll have either grilled marinated Salmon
>(teriyaki sauce) or grilled Cajun Catfish, my grandmothers rice pilaf,
>grilled vegies (mushrooms, zuchini, garlic, red pepper), and some french
>bread and roasted garlic. We'll wash this one down with some Merlot.
>
>
>Rob
>
>> Sue
>
>
Damn!!! I'm getting hungry!
Michael "The poor lonesome starving drum corps guy" Kolle
michael davis
For purposes of this example of the imaginary young woman who
wants to march in a div I finalist caliber corps, that's all.
>Trends are trends. Generally what happens in one division--and
not
>just among the finalists, but in all the non-finalist corps,
too--has
>a way of seeping into all the other divisions, too. Are you
saying
>that the choices have to be limited to the most competitive
groups,
>and that somehow, all the corps that placed below the Top 12
were
>co-ed?
No. Just using this as an example that might occur in reality.
The fact that a div III corps may or may not be all-female makes
no difference to this particular case. As has been written many
times here, most of those who do not make their div I choice
corps end up NOT marching anywhere, after all.
>Not sure what bearing competitive standings from year to year
>has on the question of whether any group should choose to limit
its
>membership to one gender or the other.
>
I'm looking at it from the other side, I guess. About the
options available to the potential female member, and in this
case a gal who wants to choose a div I finalist caliber corps
and finds their choices less by two than a guy.
Well, IMO just because the Band-ettes exist as a div III all-
girl corps that doesn't 'cover' for the exclusion by the Cavies
and Scouts. Just MHO. If the Band-ettes were a div I corps of
appoximately equal standing to those, I might feel otherwise,
but the reality is that they are not. They serve an entirely
different set of members at this point in time.
Oh, well, it was just, as I said, an extreme example, really
just for kicks.
Jodeen Popp
Let's talk about the ladies REAL super corps - the Audubon Bon Bons. They
operated as an all girl corps from 1938 thru 1977, with a good deal of
success.
In those early years, there were a very few all girl corps and NO mixed
corps. The Bon Bons were the only all girl corps to compete successful with
the all boy corps. They placed second or third in National Finals on more
than one occasion.
In 1957 they took both high drums and GE, placing second (by .35) to Holy
Name at American Legion finals. While their horn line tied for third that
year, their bugle quartet won their title.
I believe that this was the corps that led others to welcome ladies into
their horn and drum lines, because they proved that there were no real
physical limitations to prevent quality participation. One of the first to
benefit greatly was the Troopers.
Actually, the first National titlist with gals in the line was way back in
1942 and '43, when Gen. George E. Bell from Chicago won the VFW. That case
stood alone, and it didn't spread for many years.
Jodeen Popp
"michael davis" <mdavisN...@ets.org.invalid> wrote in message
news:04155d14...@usw-ex0103-019.remarq.com...
michael davis
>
>Let's talk about the ladies REAL super corps - the Audubon Bon
Bons. They
>operated as an all girl corps from 1938 thru 1977, with a good
deal of
>success.
>
A great corps! I saw them many times from 64-77. Loved the
cowgirl blue/white unis, too! And yes, they could PLAY!
FT
>
>One of those extremes to highlight a point: :-)
>
>By the above reasoning, if 11 of 12 div I finalists (just to
>limit it for purposes of this post) were all male, it would be
>OK? As long as one corps permitted women the activity itself
>would pass your own personal threshhold of not being
>discriminatory?
>
I can't help but comment on this. Why would there be a problem
with this scenario? Isn't placement based upon performance and
not on whether a corps is all male or not? In such a scenario,
if 11 of the top twelve corps were all male and were the best
performing corps and the quality of their performance is why
they were in the top twelve, why would there be a problem?
Along the same line, if 11 of the top twelve corps were all
female (or even all twelve) and were in those placements because
of their performance, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
michael davis
>michael davis <mdavisN...@ets.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>>One of those extremes to highlight a point: :-)
>>
>>By the above reasoning, if 11 of 12 div I finalists (just to
>>limit it for purposes of this post) were all male, it would be
>>OK? As long as one corps permitted women the activity itself
>>would pass your own personal threshhold of not being
>>discriminatory?
>>
>
>I can't help but comment on this. Why would there be a problem
>with this scenario? Isn't placement based upon performance and
>not on whether a corps is all male or not? In such a scenario,
>if 11 of the top twelve corps were all male and were the best
>performing corps and the quality of their performance is why
>they were in the top twelve, why would there be a problem?
>Along the same line, if 11 of the top twelve corps were all
>female (or even all twelve) and were in those placements because
>of their performance, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
>
For the purposes of an imaginary discussion, I have no problem
with your scenario. If there were that many corps of all types
vying for top 12, sure. The reality is different, IMO. There are
0 all-female corps that approach the performance level of the top
12, or even make it all of div I if that makes you feel better.
Therefore, a young woman who might want to march at that level in
today's drum corps world has fewer opportunities than a young
man. IMO, anyway.
The corps in question, BTW, certainly have the right to operate
as they so choose, just to be clear on that point. As long as DCI
itself has no rules regarding corps makeup, they are free to do
as they wish. It's just my own wish that they'd open up their
corps to the other half of the population, that's all.
Mike
RDeschene
<mdavisN...@ets.org.invalid> wrote:
>RDes...@recorder.ca (RDeschene) wrote:
>>On Thu, 03 Aug 2000 11:00:48 -0700, michael davis
>><mdavisN...@ets.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>RDes...@recorder.ca (RDeschene) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Oh, and I also said that if there were *no* corps that
>admitted
>>>women,
>>>>then the activity *as a whole* would be discriminatory. (And,
>of
>>>>course, you don't have to go back too many decades when that
>was
>>>the
>>>>case.) But I can't imagine that I've ever referred to Cavies'
>>>and
>>>>Madison's decision to stay all-male as being
>discriminatory . .
>>>.
>>>>again, because I've never seen it that way.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Sue,
>>>
>>>One of those extremes to highlight a point: :-)
>>>
>>>By the above reasoning, if 11 of 12 div I finalists (just to
>>>limit it for purposes of this post) were all male, it would be
>>>OK? As long as one corps permitted women the activity itself
>>>would pass your own personal threshhold of not being
>>>discriminatory?
>>>
>>Why are we limiting this question to Div. I finalists, first of
>all?
>
>For purposes of this example of the imaginary young woman who
>wants to march in a div I finalist caliber corps, that's all.
>
<snip>
OK. But since it's a hypothetical, it's also just as hypothetically
possible that all the Div. 1 Top 12 corps could be co-ed, and all the
rest all-male. Assuming that there are more than 12 corps out of the
Top 12, regardless of how competitive they are (or aren't) I still
wouldn't be happy about more corps being all-male than not, because it
indicates discrimination on the part of the activity *as a whole*.
IMO, where they place -is irrelevant to the practice. Because, after
all, the same corps don't make Top 12 year after year. Some do, but
others don't. I judge a corps' "competitiveness" by its track record.
Hypothetically (Ron, I apologize in advance), you could have corps
that are all-male being the balance of finalists one year, and then,
let's say, six of those all-male corps drop out of the Top 12 for five
or six consecutive years (or drop out altogether), to be replaced by
six co-ed corps who consistently make finals for those five or six
consecutive years. The co-ed corps could even make up the Top 6, with
the all-male corps placing in slots 7-12. And, hypothetically, one of
those co-ed corps could even rise to the top and win the whole thing .
. . for several years running. Then, how do you establish any sort of
correlation--or meaning, for that matter--between "competitiveness"
and whether a corps gender is all-male or co-ed?
Mike, obviously our opinions differ on this. You and I can offer a
hundred different hypothetical examples to illustrate our point, and
we're not going to change each other's minds or convince each other of
the rightness or wrongness that we perceive exists in this situation.
So let's just agree to disagree, OK?
Sue
michael davis
>
>Mike, obviously our opinions differ on this. You and I can offer
a
>hundred different hypothetical examples to illustrate our point,
and
>we're not going to change each other's minds or convince each
other of
>the rightness or wrongness that we perceive exists in this
situation.
>So let's just agree to disagree, OK?
>
Sounds good to me!
chu...@my-deja.com
for a girl from say Madison area and the only top 12 corps that she
deservs to be in wont even look at her. Thats the only down side to
it.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Vincent Ferrera
vf
Lawrence Bell
"Jodeen Popp" <j...@bfm.org> wrote in message
news:rEsi5.372$Zo5.1...@homer.alpha.net...
> Granted, times have changed - a lot - but this is still very interesting.
>
> Let's talk about the ladies REAL super corps - the Audubon Bon Bons. They
> operated as an all girl corps from 1938 thru 1977, with a good deal of
> success.
>
> In those early years, there were a very few all girl corps and NO mixed
> corps. The Bon Bons were the only all girl corps to compete successful
> with the all boy corps. They placed second or third in National Finals
> on more than one occasion.
>
> In 1957 they took both high drums and GE, placing second (by .35) to
> Holy Name at American Legion finals. While their horn line tied for third
> that year, their bugle quartet won their title.
> Jodeen Popp
Aaahhh 1957, Atlantic City, my first BIG TIME show.
Audubon KICKED OUR ASS that day in the convention center.
It was our introduction to Drum Corps at it's best. Juniors & Seniors.
Got to meet Don Angelica and others from Holy Name.
We thought the 'girls' won it!
Larry B.
St.Kevins
(hey Carol T, neeed-a-rooom)
jen swanson
losing one important stat: percentage of participation of both of the
genders. This is the way that money is divided amoung most major
colleges and universities for athletics, as well as the premise for
which Title IX was drafted. I think we can all pretty much agree the
the majority of DCI participation and interest is male. Now, I am sure
sure of the figures, but lets hypothetically say that about 2/3rd's of
most co-ed Corps are male and I would also agree to that figure as far
as interest goes. In this case, if you only have two all male corps,
you are definitely well above the slots needed to fill the demands of
females in drum corps. I think that all of this talk about guys having
more opportunities is absolutely true, but I also think it is fair and
even maybe justified. I don't think any opportunities are being ripped
away from us females, nor do I think an excess amount of females are
being turned away from the activity. If a female is qualified, there
are definitely opportunities available to her.
Jen Swanson
Jodeen Popp
Kingsmen's rifle line. At the time it was beyond consideration, and
absolutely out of the question for the type of corps and rifle line the
corps had.
His father came to practice with him for weeks to try to intimidate everyone
into giving him a spot by threatening legal action. (I do not know what
would have happened if he had gone to court, but he did not.)
We finally were able to talk him out of it by telling him if he came in he
would have to wear a skirt, just like the rest of the color guard. We asked
him what the word "uniform" meant to him.
And, we saw no reason why thirty girls would have to change to pants, just
to accommodate him.
Don't know if that would work today, but it certainly did then. And, I
feel, for very good reason.
Jodeen Popp
"RDeschene" <RDes...@recorder.ca> wrote in message
news:39891fef...@news.recorder.ca...
> On 03 Aug 2000 05:52:14 GMT, jsud...@aol.com (JSUdrum78) wrote:
>
> >>Uh, I'm a feminist. I also support Cavies' and Madison's choice to
> >>stay all-male.
> >
> >hmm...you called it discrimation in an earlier post....
>
> I called Cavies' and Madison's choice to stay all-male discrimination?
> No, I don't think so. You must have me confused with somebody else.
> I've always supported their choice to stay all-male, and as far as I
> can recall I've never referred to it as discrimination. I've never
> perceived it that way.
>
> I *did* call men not being allowed to march color guard a
> discriminatory practice. Is that what you're referring to?
>
> Sue