Opinions on Dynasty Bb horns
BichoBRASS
few others use them. Anyone who has marched a summer with them have any
opinions on them? Please share.
MSRogala
>I was just curious as to what people think of Bb Deg horns. I know SCV and a
>few others use them. Anyone who has marched a summer with them have any
>opinions on them? Please share.
>
>
>
>
>
JJAYBOYD
really? please.. Id love to hear what difference you hear between G bugles and
Bb instruments... no really..
I, personally, dont hear any difference.. ok.. maybe most that use Bbs are in
TUNE more... but other than that... where is the difference??????
Please.. I am asking a direct question.. why dont corps sound like drum corps
when they use Bb?
Jason Plawner
Kevin Gamin
I didn't give the above opinion, but I do share it, and here are my
reasons why:
When I listen to corps on Bb horns, I find that the soprano lines are
usually much thinner and reedier sounding than G hornlines. I also find
that the hornlines in general do not have the warm, dark, and large
presence that I find G hornlines have. Santa Clara compensated for
their bari line, though, by going with all euphoniums in their low
brass, so they had the most punch from the low brass end, in my opinion,
of all the Bb lines. Spirit seemed to have the most open sounding
sopranos. I think this might be because they really bored out their
sops, although I can't be sure. Maybe somebody from Spirit could let me
know if this is true.
As to which plays more in tune, I'll have to disagree with you there. I
have yet to hear a Bb hornline that plays in tune BETTER than a G
hornline, partially because of how thin the sops sound. I can't say,
though, that the Bb horns are horribly out of tune compared to the G,
but I do feel that swithing to Bb doesn't improve the chances of a
hornline playing in tune.
One more difference: To me, because the G horns have a larger bore and
are pitched lower than the Bb horns, G horns have a larger presence and
sound louder. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the Bb hornlines are
playing just as loud as the G hornlines but, because of that larger bore
and lower pitch, the G horns will be perceived louder as a result. In
this case, perception is reality.
Now, I have two questions to ask of you. First, please return the favor
and state your reasons why you think the Bb horns sound better than the
G horns. Second, would you please tell me what years you've marched and
whether those corps had G or Bb horns? I have a theory I'd like to test
out on you (congrats, you're a guinea pig now).
Thanks for starting what hopes to be a very enlightening and interesting
discussion.
--
Kevin "Gadget" Gamin
Glassmen 1992-1996
Empire Statesmen 2000-2002
Chip Torgerson
news:1f465ho.1w88p9fe60y1wN%states...@worldnet.att.net...
> of all the Bb lines. Spirit seemed to have the most open sounding
> sopranos. I think this might be because they really bored out their
> sops, although I can't be sure.
Maybe this is because they were playing on Kanstul horns, as opposed to the
DEGs and Tamaha horns that everyobne else played on. The Kanstul horns are
.470 bore, same as the Kanstul G bugles.
Bring back the Bugles to Drum & Bugle Corps!
Chip Torgerson
ch...@nespy.com
Stefanie Kressaty
in my chosen profession, I'm trained to listen for shaping.. the shape of
sound..
Bb horns are indeed more "in tune" -- or rather, easier to tune but their
sound is very broad.. very curved.. imagine the shape of this sound as a
large bubble coming from the field.
G bugles have a sharper sound.. more pointed.. not impossible to tune, but
certainly they are susceptible to going out of tune. the sound of a G bugle
outside travels further (and bugles were DESIGNED to carry sound long
distances as they were used to call battle commands) and is more direct.
Imagine the shape of the sound as a large arrowhead coming from the field.
There is definitely a difference.
Stefanie
"JJAYBOYD" <jjay...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011209220422...@mb-fc.aol.com...
Killr Baud
I marched BD only since 2000, but from jan-may of that year we still had G
bugles. So I've played both in the same corps, and I really like the Dynastys.
I know on RAMD people are very sensitive, so I want to say in big, calm,
capital letters THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION. NO, I DID NOT MARCH IN THE GOOD OLD
DAYS. YOU'RE RIGHT, I AM YOUNG. NO, I'M NOT A PROFESSIONAL. YES, YOUR POINT IS
VERY VALID. NO, I DIDN'T MEAN TO OFFEND YOU.
Anytime,
Chris, BD euphonium 2000, 2001, 2002
SopMan99
sounded as wide open as they did was because they have the exact same bore
size as the kanstul powerbore soprano bugle. Also they are conical vs. the
traditional cylindrical tubing of a normal Bb trumpet. In addition we played
on matched large bore mouthpieces. The horns were also matched (sequential
serial #'s etc...) which means they all resonate the same which provides an
matched timbre therefor giving a more powerful sound. The most important
reason we sounded the way we did was the fundamentals program taught by
Freddy Martin and the rest of the brass staff.
George DeGuzman
Spirit 99, 00, 01
Kevin Gamin <states...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:1f465ho.1w88p9fe60y1wN%states...@worldnet.att.net...
Mike Winterberg
the
> DEGs and Tamaha horns that everyobne else played on. The Kanstul horns
are
> .470 bore, same as the Kanstul G bugles.
>
From DEG's website.....
"Dynasty Marching Bb Trumpet Outfit
010-400L
Features include a 5" (127mm) bell, .468" (11.89mm) bore, 21 1/4" (540mm)
length"
(specs on Kanstul's trumpet: .470" bore, 5 1/16" bell, 19" length
specs on Kanstul's bugles: .470" bore, 5" (5 1/16" for powerbore) bell , 18"
(19 1/8" for powerbore) length.
specs on Dynasty's bugle: .460" bore, 5" bell, 19.5" length)
Does .002" make that much of a difference?
There has to be something in the design of the Kanstul's compared to the
Dynasty's... right?
Not an attempt at a flame: I'm really clueless about brass
design/construction.... so, maybe that .002" does make a huge difference...
I just found it interesting that Dynasty's bugle would have a smaller bore
than their trumpet (since the size of the bore does affect volume in some
way, right?)
--Michael Winterberg
Mike Winterberg
> Dynasty's... right?
>
And George just answered that question for me.
--Michael Winterberg
Darron Jennings
(actually a Rook-Out :-) ) played with us today at the CorpsVets rehearsal.
When we were in sectional (Sops) he was having fits trying to find his pitch
while playing in the stratosphere. (First time on a G horn)
He was one hell of a player though. I was impressed.
--
Posted from [66.168.218.134]
via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
RGortowski
>sopranos. I think this might be because they really bored out their
>sops, although I can't be sure. Maybe somebody from Spirit could let me
Spirit played on Kanstul horns. I can't comment on the Bb's, but in the Royal
Airs, I am playing on a DEG G bugle. I borrowed a Kanstul G from my corps mate
for a while. I find the Kanstul to be an infinately superior playing horn. It
played much more freely than the DEG and centered on the pitch much better.
Call me the Bando that I am, but I really don't like playing on the G bugle.
They are very ill behaved instruments and much more difficult to play well (I
have played trumpet for 34 years). That being said, I agree with Kevin that
the G bugles are louder than the Bb's. I thought there was a big difference in
Cavaliers sound between 2000 and 2001.
Rich Gortowski
James Beatty
I think this might be because they really bored out their
sops, although I can't be sure.
Kevin "Gadget" Gamin
Glassmen 1992-1996
Empire Statesmen 2000-2002
What do you mean by "bored out"?
James Beatty
CHEZ
but--
I have never met a trumpet player on a gig or session who played a Deg
trumpet.
yamaha -yes
Kanstul-yes
deg---no
Gary Peterson
--
Gary Peterson
Defenders-Rockland, MA
74-78
"Stefanie Kressaty" <scri...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:aqWQ7.43369$WC1.4...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Catherine
news:LpYQ7.17$5K4....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Ok, so it's settled then right? Everyone go back to V/R G bugles. :)
G Valve-slide bugles are WAY cool too - great rips!!!
-- Catherine
VKGARRY73
>in my chosen profession,
Finally got that opera gig? Or should that read, "I would choose opera, but I'm
doing something else until I get my big break.."?
Well, I'll weigh in with 35 years of experience in music, including the last 30
in drum corps.
It ain't the horn, it's the player.
Bb isn't any more in tune. Walk in to any elementary music program and give
them a trumpet and a G bugle. The Bb trumpet won't be any more in tune than the
G bugle.
Now, walk into any professional symphony and give the principal a Bb trumpet
and a G bugle. What do you want to bet the he plays them both in tune? Granted,
he may prefer the Bb, but he'll play them in tune.
When i did my semesters of brass technique at Long Beach State, my professor
asked me the first day if I'd played a brass instrument before. I guess all the
years I spent listening to brass lines and their instructors paid off. The fact
that I have a good ear helped, too.
Now, was it the Bach student model Bb trumpet I was playing, or the fact that I
could hear the proper pitch and adjust my embouchure to compensate?
By the way, "sharper" and "pointed" are incorrect terminology. In drum corps we
call it "EDGE"! I guess you'd know that if you marched.
VKG
Always remember you are unique...just like everyone else.
><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>¸.
·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>
Div23fan
>usually much thinner and reedier sounding than G hornlines.
I hear that too. It's partly a tone quality issue, and also partly due to
disagreements in tuning between the individual sopranos.
> I also find
>that the hornlines in general do not have the warm, dark, and large
>presence that I find G hornlines have.
Particularly the contras. Some Bb contra lines are inaudible, and the others
just don't have the deep, full sound that a good contra section of the
1980s/1990s delivered.
>Santa Clara compensated for
>their bari line, though, by going with all euphoniums in their low
>brass, so they had the most punch from the low brass end, in my opinion,
>of all the Bb lines. Spirit seemed to have the most open sounding
>sopranos. I think this might be because they really bored out their
>sops, although I can't be sure. Maybe somebody from Spirit could let me
>know if this is true.
Bore size is probably part of it, but bore shape definitely is as well.
>As to which plays more in tune, I'll have to disagree with you there. I
>have yet to hear a Bb hornline that plays in tune BETTER than a G
>hornline, partially because of how thin the sops sound. I can't say,
>though, that the Bb horns are horribly out of tune compared to the G,
I can, in cases where middle horns keyed in F clash with the Bb sections. G
bugles avoid that problem.
>but I do feel that swithing to Bb doesn't improve the chances of a
>hornline playing in tune.
Agreed.
>One more difference: To me, because the G horns have a larger bore and
>are pitched lower than the Bb horns, G horns have a larger presence and
>sound louder. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the Bb hornlines are
>playing just as loud as the G hornlines but, because of that larger bore
>and lower pitch, the G horns will be perceived louder as a result. In
>this case, perception is reality.
I agree with your perception, but I have a different guess as to what causes
it. I prefer to believe that it's not the pitch that makes the Gs carry better
outdoors, but the bore size and shape. Something about the "conical" shape....
Ken Mason
LEG at cba
>sounded as wide open as they did was because they have the exact same bore
>size as the kanstul powerbore soprano bugle. Also they are conical vs. the
>traditional cylindrical tubing of a normal Bb trumpet.
Not trying to put words in your mouth, but doesn't that mean that the
"trumpets" are really bugles in Bb??
Larry "G"
Stefanie Kressaty
Bees in your bonnet again?
Opera is my chosen profession. Singing is one of my musical skills. Why
the venom? It's a fact.
Aren't you in the same boat, careerwise, as me?
Also please note, I did make the "in tune" correction -- that Bb is easiER
to tune.. and that Gs are more (though I think I inadvertently left the word
more out) susceptible to falling out of tune. Do we have to go over reading
comprehension AGAIN?
And finally, I explained that the shape of the G bugle sound is sharper and
more pointed. to which you replied from your "high mountain of
superiority":
> By the way, "sharper" and "pointed" are incorrect terminology. In drum
corps we
> call it "EDGE"! I guess you'd know that if you marched.
I learned something in basic, college level English that serves me every
day. Write to your audience.
Jason, as we all know, has NOT marched drum corps. The post was a reply to
him and so it was addressed to him. Aside from that, ANY musician who
pursues music beyond a high school education SHOULD have a basic
understanding of the shape of sound. Drum Corps does not corner that market
so ANY term is appropriate if it gets the point (no pun intended) across.
Can ya pour me a drink, herr direktor?
Thanks for listening,
Stefanie
JJAYBOYD
>and state your reasons why you think the Bb horns sound better than the
>G horns.
When I got my first "listen" to a full horn line playing with Bb horns.. it was
a rehearsal with the Cadets for their annual Memorial Brass Concert. It was
indoors at the John Harms Center... and the FIRST thing I NOTICED...was how
much better each section seemed to blend... the tonality of each horn, be it
baris, contras, sops etc... all seem to blend more clearly... as far as the
'thinner' sound you're talking about... I tend to think that has more to do
with a certain corps' arrainging than the horns... I found the high notes to be
loud, in tune and wonderful.
> Second, would you please tell me what years you've marched and
>whether those corps had G or Bb horns?
I never marched a day in a corps in my life. I played Trumpet for 20 years
since I was in 2nd grade, a full year ahead of 'normal' starting for my old
school district. My brother was a year ahead of me and decided to take trumpet
at summer school.. I tagged along, and at one point when they were trying to
teach him a C scale... I picked up the horn and played all 8 notes to the top
to the amazement of the teacher, the students and most of all ME. I continued
playing in any and every kind of musical organization I could since that time.
I am by NO means an 'expert'... furthest thing from it... and everyones 'ear'
is different... but I personally find the Bb's a wonderful step for drum
corps....
Traditionalists hate it.. but EVERY activity in the world has changed much to
the chagrin of people who seek to keep things 'the way they were'... Be it
NASCAR racing, GOLF... you name it... anytime time brings change, you have
those who oppose it....
I hope I have answered your questions in a forthcoming way...
sincerely,
jason plawner
Sambuca312
are: Brass Bands. Very good brass bands, but certainly not Drum & Bugle
Corps. It's sad.
SAM
Catherine
>>please return the favor
>>and state your reasons why you think the Bb horns sound better than
the
>>G horns.
>
>When I got my first "listen" to a full horn line playing with
>Bb horns.. it was a rehearsal with the Cadets for their annual
>Memorial Brass Concert. It was indoors
BINGO!!!!
>at the John Harms Center... and the FIRST thing I NOTICED...
was how much better each section seemed to blend...
Instead of punch and come out IN BATTLE...
> the tonality of each horn, be it baris, contras, sops
> etc... all seem to blend more clearly...
"tonalities blending more clearly"... K. Do you mean the sections
were more in tune with each other? If yes (or whatever), how do you
ascribe it to the key of the horn rather than most of the line getting
up on the right side of the bed that morning? Were they switching off
with G horns to give you a point of comparison?
> as far as the 'thinner' sound you're talking about... I
> tend to think that has more to do with a certain corps'
> arrainging than the horns... I found the high notes to be
> loud, in tune and wonderful.
An arrangement making the "tonalities" sound "thinner"?
NOPE - try again...
>>Second, would you please tell me what years you've marched and
>>whether those corps had G or Bb horns?
>
>I never marched a day in a corps in my life. I played
>Trumpet for 20 years since I was in 2nd grade, a full year
>ahead of 'normal' starting for my old school district.
>My brother was a year ahead of me and decided to take
>trumpet at summer school.. I tagged along, and at one
>point when they were trying to teach him a C scale...
>I picked up the horn and played all 8 notes to the top
>to the amazement of the teacher, the students and most
>of all ME. I continued playing in any and every kind of
>musical organization I could since that time.
>
>I am by NO means an 'expert'... furthest thing from it...
>and everyones 'ear' is different... but I personally find
>the Bb's a wonderful step for drum corps....
Here's a test... Listen to 1962 Garfield, Skyliners and/or
Caballeros. What do you think? If you don't find virtues worth
celebrating and making dominant values in THAT style of drum corps,
then in my opinion you simply don't like drum corps music as compared
to other styles/genres.
That doesn't mean you're not a fine musician. Professor Hans Pizka,
one of the finest Hornists on the planet, went to a (recent) drum
corps show and asked why they had to play so loudly? He DIDN'T GET
IT, and didn't like it. Some people don't like polkas, some people
prefer the "pop" Dolly Parton over her early more bluegrass/hillbilly
stuff, some people hate/like rap, etc.
In fact, country music is probably a good analogy. Quite a number of
people argue against the "popularization" of country music as opposed
to Hank Williams (Sr.), Loretta Lynn, Patsy Cline. But I don't think
there's many out there calling those artists "stuck in the past" and
it's "never coming back".
>Traditionalists hate it.. but EVERY activity in the world has
>changed much to the chagrin of people who seek to keep things
>'the way they were'... Be it NASCAR racing, GOLF... you name
>it... anytime time brings change, you have those who oppose it....
And then there are the retro movements. How many people EVER thought
platform shoes would EVER come back?
Further, Mr. Plawner... Many fads do change. But many things endure
and are desired... Particularly the American Flag, the call to fight
for justice, honor and tradition...
And french horns, LOUD G BUGLE HORNLINES and blow jobs.
-- Catherine
SopMan99
pure toilet pipe like G bugles. (yeah i love the G's but i just wish they
were made of better material so they would sound better)
matter of fact, the only thing that was similar to a regular trumpet was the
fact that they were pitched in Bb and shaped like a regular trumpet.
Although if you put a normal trumpet right next to a Kanstul Coliseum the
normal trumpet would look like a toy horn.
LEG at cba <lega...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011210064234...@mb-ce.aol.com...
Dave Seip
That being said, I agree with Kevin that
> the G bugles are louder than the Bb's. I thought there was a big difference in
> Cavaliers sound between 2000 and 2001.
I think that is mainly because they switched to Yamaha brass. While
Dynasty and Kanstul Bbs are, for all intents and purposes, the same
design as their Gs but pitched in Bb, Yamahas are not. Their contras
are just concert tubas with a converted lead pipe, and their trumpets
haven't been designed to project like the other two types have.
However, I have to give props to the Cavies hornline; they played to
the limit of those horns, so that they got the dark sound they were
looking for without overblowing them. I'm not a fan of Yamaha,
although hopefully this new acceptance into the world of drum corps
will result in them producing both more durable and better-projecting
marching brass.
Dave Seip
Contra, Blue Stars D&BC
http://www.thebigdog.cjb.net
KKPsi-BT
DCfan
"Chip Torgerson" <ch...@read-my-signature.com> wrote:
> Maybe this is because they were playing on Kanstul horns, as opposed to the
> DEGs and Tamaha horns that everyobne else played on. The Kanstul horns are
> .470 bore, same as the Kanstul G bugles.
Tamaha? Is that a new company? I didn't know they made bugles, let
along Bb brass instruments...
Aaron
states...@worldnet.att.net (Kevin Gamin) wrote:
> When I listen to corps on Bb horns, I find that the soprano lines are
> usually much thinner and reedier sounding than G hornlines.
Agree. It varies from corps to corps, depending on talent of players,
but overall, I agree.
> that the hornlines in general do not have the warm, dark, and large
> presence that I find G hornlines have. Santa Clara compensated for
> their bari line, though, by going with all euphoniums in their low
> brass, so they had the most punch from the low brass end, in my opinion,
> of all the Bb lines.
Actually, I was very impressed by how dark SCV sounded. They had more
low end that some of the "G teams". Plus they were LOUD! Maybe it was
just my seats, but they blew me away on Semis night.
Now, as for Cavies, They had a very nice blended sound, atlhough it
wasn't as loud. Crossmen were pretty loud, but they weren't as blended
and they were top-heavy to my ears. My vote for loudest: Seattle
Cascades. At the Midwest International in DeKalb, they made Phantom
seem quiet! They blew me away last summer and I can honestly say theirs
was probably my favorite show of the year.
--
* Aaron Frost, Blue Stars *
Kevin Gamin
> I was the soprano section leader for spirit '01. The reason our trumpets
> sounded as wide open as they did was because they have the exact same bore
> size as the kanstul powerbore soprano bugle. Also they are conical vs. the
> traditional cylindrical tubing of a normal Bb trumpet. In addition we played
> on matched large bore mouthpieces. The horns were also matched (sequential
> serial #'s etc...) which means they all resonate the same which provides an
> matched timbre therefor giving a more powerful sound. The most important
> reason we sounded the way we did was the fundamentals program taught by
> Freddy Martin and the rest of the brass staff.
>
> George DeGuzman
>
> Spirit 99, 00, 01
Here's a question for you...
Since they have the same bore and tubing as a G bugle (regardless of
whether or not valves are a part of the horn), would you consider your
sops Bb trumpets or Bb bugles?
Kevin Gamin
The bore of the horns Spirit used is larger than that of a Bb trumpet
and is more like the G bugles they used to use. This allows for freer
airflow and a larger sound.
--
Kevin Gamin
> "Gary Peterson" <pic...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:LpYQ7.17$5K4....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > Ok, so it's settled then right? Everyone go back to V/R G bugles. :)
>
> G Valve-slide bugles are WAY cool too - great rips!!!
>
> -- Catherine
French horns have great rips no matter how many valves or slides they
have installed.
Kevin Gamin
CHEZ
Aaron wrote:
>
> Now, as for Cavies, They had a very nice blended sound, atlhough it
> wasn't as loud. Crossmen were pretty loud, but they weren't as blended
> and they were top-heavy to my ears.
crossmen were loud in 2001.
we switched over to Bb this season , but are remodeling the trumpets to
maintain that drum corps sound..
JJAYBOYD
>Caballeros. What do you think?
I find the old arrangments and playing sloppy, over blown, too loud and
extremely non musical.... fine for the time I guess.. but I just do NOT like
older shows.
as you've stated Catherine... if you LIKE 'THAT KIND' of stuff.. god bless ya..
I find the older shows to have virtually NO musicallity. Anyone can blow in a
horn as loud as they can and think its music... just look at the guy on the
hill in the Ricola commercials with that 20 foot horn.. he thinks he's playing
Mozart....
It DOES come down to what each individual looks for in 'drum corps'... I
prefer musicality, drill that makes me go "how did they DO that" and stunning
dance/equipment technique...
Its my preference... and I am allowed to like it.
But many things endure
>and are desired... Particularly the American Flag, the call to fight
>for justice, honor and tradition...
>
This statement means exactly what with regards to the discussion we're talking
about? I am talking about different horns... youre wrapping yourself in the
flag making yourself out to be the Betsy Ross of some kind of movement...
I dont know Catherine.. I am not looking to fight with you anymore.. but you
seem to want to pick fights... and I dont care to....
Why must you be that way? Why cant you simply state your point of view in a
rational way.. one that maybe I would listen to.. rather than this gung ho,
psychotic manner?
I told you that I didnt wish to fight anymore... I expressed my OPINION on
something.. and you attack the way you always did before....
truly amazing... honestly.
find peace.. it will make you a much happier person... and one that others will
not take such joy in attacking.
Jason
Scott W. Williams
"JJAYBOYD" wrote
> It was indoors at the John Harms Center... and the FIRST thing I
NOTICED...was how
> much better each section seemed to blend...
The first thing you should have noticed was the fact that you were
where??? INSIDE!!!! Completely changes the sound quality of the hornline.
AND they were standing still. For what I've heard over the last few years.
You can tell which lines are playing Bb/F horns. They definitely sound
thinner and more shrill than the fat sounds of the all G lines OUTSIDE.
> I am by NO means an 'expert'... furthest thing from it... and everyones
'ear'
> is different... but I personally find the Bb's a wonderful step for drum
> corps....
It was a nail in the coffin of Drum Corps identity apart from Bands.
> Traditionalists hate it.. but EVERY activity in the world has changed much
to
> the chagrin of people who seek to keep things 'the way they were'... Be it
> NASCAR racing, GOLF... you name it... anytime time brings change, you have
> those who oppose it....
The problem with your comparison is that the changes made to the other
sports you mention had commercial value, broadened the base of fans and
enthusiasts, and increased revenue for the sport. The exact opposite has
happened in Drum Corps! BIG DIFFERENCE! What should have happened is to
exploit the fact of DC being "different". Capitalize on the fact that we
use very specific tools for our trade.
Use the right tool for the job, not something that will get the job done
in a sorta half-assed way. Kinda like using a tack hammer to frame a house.
Sure you could do it, but GOD it'd take forever and would be a complete pain
in the ass!!
Scott Williams
'86-'89 Rocky Mountain Magic (the original)
'90 Velvet Knights
'92 Santa Clara Vanguard
JJAYBOYD
This person said that The Crossmen werent as loud... and they were on G
bugles!!
Its just a MIND SET PEOPLE.
You dont WANT to like Bbs so youre not GOING to like them.. Like when mommy
used to make a new dish for dinner that had some kind of purple tint to it...
you set your mind that you werent going to like it ..and you DIDNT. Later on
in life.. you tasted it again under different circumstances.. and you love
it... its just human nature...
and HEY.. if ALL THE CORPS GO TO Bb/s... AND IN TEN YEARS DONT LIKE IT... MAYBE
THEY CAN GO BACK... improbable since most companies wont make G's anymore.. but
its not IMPOSSIBLE.. Nothing is impossible...I dont think.....
Jason
Scott W. Williams
"Aaron" <aafr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Actually, I was very
impressed by how dark SCV sounded. They had more
> low end that some of the "G teams". Plus they were LOUD! Maybe it was
> just my seats, but they blew me away on Semis night.
As was stated before, they compensated by using euph's instead of Bari's.
Scott Williams
JJAYBOYD
activity, thereby opening it up for MORE people to join, etc...
I think in the long run it will show many more dividends as you described in
response to my NASCAR and GOLF examples....
Jason
Gary Peterson
How can you say that when attendance has continued to fall and the number of
corps is the fraction of what it used to be? The only people it will open
drum corps (notice I didn't say drum and bugle corps) up to is band kids
that can afford to march. Let's just get it over with folks, call them bands
and be done with it.
Mike D.
> For what I've heard over the last few years.
> You can tell which lines are playing Bb/F horns. They definitely sound
> thinner and more shrill than the fat sounds of the all G lines OUTSIDE.
>
Disagree. They sounded just fine, IMO. Training and playing
experience, IMO, control most of the 'sound' a corps produces. The
Bg/G thing is, IMO, much ado about nothing.
>
> > I am by NO means an 'expert'... furthest thing from it... and everyones
> 'ear'
> > is different... but I personally find the Bb's a wonderful step for drum
> > corps....
>
> It was a nail in the coffin of Drum Corps identity apart from Bands.
>
Which might be your personal largest problem with the option of
any-key.
>
> What should have happened is to
> exploit the fact of DC being "different". Capitalize on the fact that we
> use very specific tools for our trade.
Again I disagree. Since the 'traditional' sources of members have
disappeared, you have to go find another. Happens to be bands, so it
behooves the activity to make it as inviting as possible...IMO.
Since the sounds are so similar, at worst it's a non-issue, so what's
the beef?
Mike, Garfield 70-72
Mike D.
>
> How can you say that when attendance has continued to fall and the number of
> corps is the fraction of what it used to be? The only people it will open
> drum corps (notice I didn't say drum and bugle corps) up to is band kids
> that can afford to march.
Lots of kids bust their butts to raise the $ to belong to a corps
because it's their dream.
> Let's just get it over with folks, call them bands
> and be done with it.
>
OK.
:-)
Mike
Mike D.
>
> Here's a test... Listen to 1962 Garfield, Skyliners and/or
> Caballeros. What do you think? If you don't find virtues worth
> celebrating and making dominant values in THAT style of drum corps,
> then in my opinion you simply don't like drum corps music as compared
> to other styles/genres.
>
That's a pretty silly test, Catherine. For one, the recording quality
is so poor that listening to them expecting to comprehend the quality
that may or may not have been produced is almost impossible. Not to
mention whatever drills there were. Since it's a visual as well as
musical medium, without seeing them march and hearing them play you
can't truly make a valid comparison, IMO.
It's nice talking drum corps issues! :-)
Mike
Catherine
> Catherine <cather...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > "Gary Peterson" <pic...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:LpYQ7.17$5K4....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > > Ok, so it's settled then right? Everyone go back to V/R G bugles. :)
> >
> > G Valve-slide bugles are WAY cool too - great rips!!!
> >
> > -- Catherine
>
> French horns have great rips no matter how many valves or slides they
> have installed.
Midwest Legends is currently playing a patriotic medley, including
"How's Your Mother/Battle Hymn". Occasionally when our horn
instructor (Corky Genrich, another Corky) lets me get away with it,
I'll add in the boo-WAAAAs I played in 1974 VK (also played in other
years). Always brings smiles to us olde pharts!!!
-- Catherine
Jeffsjetta
gratification. The orange, you have to peel it before you can bite it....so you
have to work for the enjoyment a little.
Honestly tho, in this activity, you could give someone fruit salad and they'd
still find a way to complain.
Catherine
> >Here's a test... Listen to 1962 Garfield, Skyliners and/or
> >Caballeros. What do you think?
>
> I find the old arrangments and playing sloppy, over blown,
> too loud and extremely non musical.... fine for the time
> I guess.. but I just do NOT like older shows.
>
> as you've stated Catherine... if you LIKE 'THAT KIND' of
> stuff.. god bless ya.. I find the older shows to have
> virtually NO musicallity. Anyone can blow in a horn as loud
> as they can and think its music... just look at the guy on
> the hill in the Ricola commercials with that 20 foot horn..
> he thinks he's playing Mozart....
Oh, you mean an alphorn?
This is where a great deal of the ambiguity of the "trad vs. evo"
argument comes in. If EVERYONE and everyone will calm down and try to
understand these distinctions, perhaps we can then be better able to
discuss the MERITS of what each side is attempting to discuss.
Much of the evo justification/rationalization for their views is that
60's drum corps musical values are based on old and antiquated charts,
horns, and less developed musical styles. To a certain extent and
with many corps, this is certainly a TRUE statement. [Hear that,
evo's - I am GRANTING much of your argument!!!]
On the other hand, much of the trad justification/rationalization for
our views is that 60's drum corps musical values of "sloppy, over
blown, too loud and extremely non musical.... " are BANDO definitions
of "Pepe nasty", peel-the-paint, and BALLS OUT performance that WE
LOVE AND WANT WHEN WE SEE AND HEAR AND EXPERIENCE DRUM CORPS ON THE
FIELD and not "band".
What you evos don't get is that we understand your feelings and
criticisms completely - and we understood them THEN as well. And
people like you were in band, and we preferred to be in drum corps.
That DOESN'T mean that we weren't attempting to play with as much
intonation and musical excellence as possible.
Further, given the challenges of our POS bugles, MORE was being
demanded of the "drivers"... which produced players like Pepe Notaro
who didn't need no F*CKING fingerings to play things on a bugle that
hardly anyone else can play - nor is he the only one (think of Pierre
in 1971 VK Blues in the Night, or Chris Metzger in Madison...).
Again, I am SO glad to be playing the older bugles (WE WORSHIP THE
SINGLE-VALVE CONN FRENCH HORN). Imagine high marking time and
attacking an A and a B CLEANLY - and both played with the same
fingering: the one-valve pressed - for 13-1/2 minute drills AND LOUD.
That's the way to build some chops!!!
> It DOES come down to what each individual looks for in 'drum
> corps'... I prefer musicality, drill that makes me go "how did
> they DO that" and stunning dance/equipment technique...
So go to band shows <$1 to Gary Peterson>.
> Its my preference... and I am allowed to like it.
Agreed. But why do you want to insist on evolving the drum corps
activity out of separate existence to do it - of eliminating the trad
definition of drum corps styles and values for things that used to
clearly be identified as bando?
> >But many things endure
> >and are desired... Particularly the American Flag,
> >the call to fight for justice, honor and tradition...
>
> This statement means exactly what with regards to the
> discussion we're talking about? I am talking about
> different horns... youre wrapping yourself in the
> flag making yourself out to be the Betsy Ross of some
> kind of movement...
Because the history and tradition of DRUM & BUGLE CORPS *IS* that of
military honor and tradition and OUTDOOR calls to the community to
collective patriotism, OUTDOOR calls to the troops - to THAT kind of
"musicality" that stirs the soul and gets people UP on their feet
going YEAH and ripping their clothes off to JOIN THE PARADE AND JOIN
TOGETHER IN CELEBRATING AND CHEERING!!!
> I dont know Catherine.. I am not looking to fight with you
> anymore.. but you seem to want to pick fights... and I dont
> care to....
>
> Why must you be that way? Why cant you simply state your
> point of view in a rational way.. one that maybe I would
> listen to.. rather than this gung ho, psychotic manner?
>
> I told you that I didnt wish to fight anymore... I
> expressed my OPINION on something.. and you attack the way
> you always did before.... truly amazing... honestly.
And in what way - and why - do the things I say make what I do not
simply expressing my opinion? What in what I have written is
irrational and "psychotic"? Why does the fact that I breathe and live
my life in a "gung ho" manner so upset you? Why do YOU choose to read
that what I am doing is attacking you?
Perhaps because you are reacting emotionally and have no substantive
counterarguments? This is not an attack, merely a speculation. Only
you can verify - or not - if the shoe fits. If you think it doesn't,
then please try to explain why not - and calmly, rationally, and
without attacking your idea of my intentions and/or sanity.
> find peace.. it will make you a much happier person...
I have a great deal of peace of soul. I *didn't* have peace of soul
when I was attempting to reconcile my friendship with Wayne Downey
with what I perceived his role in this activity was, and the effects
on certain individuals (myself included) and this entire activity -
that he felt was so unimportant to discuss.
And anyone who knows me and has met me in person knows that I am a
VERY happy person...
> and one that others will not take such joy in attacking.
Jason - why would ANY decent human being take "joy in attacking"
anyone? Frankly, my dear, I believe that you have just stated a
certain truth that is the REAL problem with EVERYONE. And I say that
not to attack you, but to attempt to point something out that is one
of the main things TRULY destroying this drum corps activity - the
easy acceptance of and secrecy concerning such "mature behavior".
If we are truly drum corps family, we will help each other STOP
finding "joy in attacking" people. There is the cruelty, abuse and -
in some cases - sadism of which I have been complaining for decades.
Such things OUGHT to be decried as being beneath us all.
-- Catherine
BichoBRASS
has marched with them in these two recent summers have an opinion on them?
BichoBRASS
horns.
LEG at cba
>crossmen were loud in 2001.
>we switched over to Bb this season , but are remodeling the trumpets to
>maintain that drum corps sound..
Would you say that the result is a "custom" horn?
I'm assuming that the horns are Yamaha since Crossmen are a YEA corps. How
does Yamaha feel about the customization?
Larry "G"
Steve
who have a problem with things actually sat down with a kid who marches or
wants to march and said how can I help you fulfill your dream like I was able
to? You were able to march with out paying lots of money because the costs of
running a drum corps were not as high as they are now. I know that you all know
this but you all ignore things like this when you go off on your crusades. Try
to help the activity by getting more involved not distancing yourself from it.
If there's one thing I've learned over the past couple of years is that the
only way to change things is to take an ACTIVE role in them. I'm sorry but I
felt like I needed to remind people of these things because their distance from
the activity over the years has made them forget.
Steve
A proud marching member of a drum and bugle corps
Chip Torgerson
news:dcfan-A5D1BF....@corp.supernews.com...
Do forgive the typo. Let along? I will strive to meet your expectations in
future posts.
Chip Torgerson
ch...@nespy.com
Chip Torgerson
news:1f486w0.1g4p7up1ggv87vN%states...@worldnet.att.net...
> DCfan <dc...@anonymous.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <u18bc3i...@corp.supernews.com>,
> > "Chip Torgerson" <ch...@read-my-signature.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Maybe this is because they were playing on Kanstul horns, as opposed
to the
> > > DEGs and Tamaha horns that everyobne else played on. The Kanstul
horns are
> > > .470 bore, same as the Kanstul G bugles.
> >
> > Tamaha? Is that a new company? I didn't know they made bugles, let
> > along Bb brass instruments...
>
> Damn, one typo and he's called on the carpet. ;)
I just hope to one day be able to post at a level with which he will be
happy. Let along??? Oh, I get it...let alone!!! My typo was much more
unforgivable, though...obviously his was intentional or some other good
reason.
Chip Torgerson
ch...@nespy.com
W Souder
>really
>are: Brass Bands. Very good brass bands, but certainly not Drum & Bugle
>Corps. It's sad.
I hate to tell you this, but they became 'bands' the moment that first valve
was added. There haven't been any actual drum and BUGLE corps for about fifty
years now. I think, however, that the difference between G 'bugles' and Bb
'trumpets' is that the G horns are designed to project from a long distance,
and most Bb horns are designed to fill up a concert hall. It's not the key
that matters or some imagined 'cylindrical vs. conical bore' argument. It's a
simple matter of the makers of Bb horns coming up with a Bb horn that is
designed for outdoor use. It all boils down to this: We all love this
activity. We want it to continue. It has changed. It will not change back.
So we can all either bitch and moan that our beloved activity has gone to hell
and now totally sucks, stop going to shows, stop supporting the corps, curl up
with our videotapes and Fleetwood records, and someday tell our grandchildren
that "Years ago there used to be a thing called 'drum and bugle corps..." Or
we can give this Bb thing time to work, continue to go to shows, continue to
support individual corps and someday actually watch our grandchildren at DCI
finals. What's your choice?
Pax, Bill Souder l_P
"...but the stars we could reach were just starfish on the beach"
Stefanie Kressaty
"Mike D." <mda...@ets.org> wrote in message
news:52b29b90.01121...@posting.google.com...
Since the 'traditional' sources of members have
> disappeared, you have to go find another. Happens to be bands, so it
> behooves the activity to make it as inviting as possible...IMO.
>
Mike,
Not being one to start a fight ;) I'm curious..
Way back in the dark ages, when you first picked up an instrument, in your
whole lifetime.. what was it?
When you moved on to the next instrument.. what was it?
When you made the transition from one to the other (whether it was keys or
instruments entirely), was it REALLY a deterrent to you to have to learn the
new thing?
Stef
Steve Lucas
> >The junior corps that are using the "Bb's" sound exactly like what they
> >really
> >are: Brass Bands. Very good brass bands, but certainly not Drum & Bugle
> >Corps. It's sad.
>
> I hate to tell you this, but they became 'bands' the moment that first valve
> was added. There haven't been any actual drum and BUGLE corps for about fifty
> years now. I think, however, that the difference between G 'bugles' and Bb
> 'trumpets' is that the G horns are designed to project from a long distance,
> and most Bb horns are designed to fill up a concert hall. It's not the key
> that matters or some imagined 'cylindrical vs. conical bore' argument. It's a
> simple matter of the makers of Bb horns coming up with a Bb horn that is
> designed for outdoor use.
The only current multi-key brass instruments that are
not designed specifically for use outdoors is the trumpet.
And the companies are all producing NEW designs and NEW
horns that will compensate for that. I know that Dynasty
has reworked their Bb trumpets for better outdoor projection
and so has Yamaha. The instruments are going under changes,
just like the G horns did, and there will be many groups
out there this summer with entire sets of bell-front
multi-key brass instruments designed specifically for use
OUTDOORS.
Kevin Gamin
> I hate to tell you this, but they became 'bands' the moment that first valve
> was added. There haven't been any actual drum and BUGLE corps for about fifty
> years now. I think, however, that the difference between G 'bugles' and Bb
> 'trumpets' is that the G horns are designed to project from a long distance,
> and most Bb horns are designed to fill up a concert hall. It's not the key
> that matters or some imagined 'cylindrical vs. conical bore' argument. It's a
> simple matter of the makers of Bb horns coming up with a Bb horn that is
> designed for outdoor use. It all boils down to this: We all love this
> activity. We want it to continue. It has changed. It will not change back.
> So we can all either bitch and moan that our beloved activity has gone to hell
> and now totally sucks, stop going to shows, stop supporting the corps, curl up
> with our videotapes and Fleetwood records, and someday tell our grandchildren
> that "Years ago there used to be a thing called 'drum and bugle corps..." Or
> we can give this Bb thing time to work, continue to go to shows, continue to
> support individual corps and someday actually watch our grandchildren at DCI
> finals. What's your choice?
My choice is to march with my senior corps and play on G instruments
and, when I have grandchildren, bring them to shows that I'm in. :)
Kevin Gamin
> I dont know.. I dont agree.. I think it will enable MORE kids to partake
> in the activity, thereby opening it up for MORE people to join, etc...
Why would it enable more kids to join? Tons of kids used to join in the
past when the horns were in G and with fewer valves. Instrumentation
changes over the years haven't helped keep the numbers up.
Here's a thought: Not every corps has to be a full 135 members and not
every member has to have a musical background.
>
> I think in the long run it will show many more dividends as you described
> in response to my NASCAR and GOLF examples....
I hope you're right, but I just can't see that happening.
>
> Jason
Kevin Gamin
> Lots of kids bust their butts to raise the $ to belong to a corps
> because it's their dream.
But should they have to bust their butts so much while busting their
butts with school and other social functions?
Kevin Gamin
> "Scott W. Williams" <scott.w...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:<8niR7.32020$ER5.355546@rwcrnsc52>...
>
> > For what I've heard over the last few years.
> > You can tell which lines are playing Bb/F horns. They definitely sound
> > thinner and more shrill than the fat sounds of the all G lines OUTSIDE.
> >
>
> Disagree. They sounded just fine, IMO. Training and playing
> experience, IMO, control most of the 'sound' a corps produces. The
> Bg/G thing is, IMO, much ado about nothing.
Then explain why BD's sop line sounded so out of tune and shrill during
the end of their show last year. Partly due to drill demand (which is
another argument about visual demand overriding musicality), but they've
had that demand when using G bugles and haven't sounded like they have 4
sopranos on the field in the past.
>
> Again I disagree. Since the 'traditional' sources of members have
> disappeared, you have to go find another. Happens to be bands, so it
> behooves the activity to make it as inviting as possible...IMO.
Have the 'traditional' sources of members disappeared or have drum corps
just totally not focused in those areas? Look at corps like Cadets of
Brooklyn and Memorial Lancers out of St. Louis. Pretty much all inner
city kids with little to no musical backgrounds. There's still a lot of
kids out there looking for something better to do than hang around all
day, regardless of where they're from.
>
> Since the sounds are so similar, at worst it's a non-issue, so what's
> the beef?
If the sounds are so similar, this wouldn't be an argument to begin
with.
CHEZ
LEG at cba wrote:
> CHEZ wrote..
>
> >crossmen were loud in 2001.
> >we switched over to Bb this season , but are remodeling the trumpets to
> >maintain that drum corps sound..
>
> Would you say that the result is a "custom" horn?
>
> I'm assuming that the horns are Yamaha since Crossmen are a YEA corps.
yes , Yamaha horns
> How
> does Yamaha feel about the customization?
they love it.
they are customizing them for us.
CHEZ
>
>
> Larry "G"
CHEZ
not to make a point for or against but.....
at the first camp of the year , the students were able to READ and play through
numerous charts in a very short period .
being accustomed to the key of the horn and the pitch helped greatly.
this opened up more time for technique work and sound improvements.
ALAN CHEZ
Mike D.
> Mike D. <mda...@ets.org> wrote:
>
> > Lots of kids bust their butts to raise the $ to belong to a corps
> > because it's their dream.
>
> But should they have to bust their butts so much while busting their
> butts with school and other social functions?
Should they have to? It would be nice if it were free or close to it.
Back "in the day" when I started marching in 1964 my dad took me to
his VFW post that sponsored the corps, a class 'B' Garden State corps.
They provided rehearsal facilities, uniforms, horns, drums,
transportation to events, and funds for staff.
Moving ahead to the three corps I taught in the mid/late 70's. Yes, we
had VFW and Legion sponsors. They provided NO rehearsal facilities,
uniforms, horns, drums, transportation to events, and funds for staff.
We had them for one reason, to march at the State champ shows in
Wildwood each June and September.
The corps had to raise every penny. It wasn't DCI's fault; we had
NOTHING to do with DCI. By the end of the 70's, they, along with many
other small corps, were gone.
Yes, it costs a lot to march at the div I level, between tour fees,
camps, and transportation. There ARE alternatives, though, such as div
II/III if there are some near you, plus even div I costs vary widely
between corps. Also, many corps offer financial assistance and
opportunities to fund-raise.
Bottom line is that yes, it would be GREAT if it were close to free,
but it's not.
Mike, Liviingston Hilltoppers 64-67
Imperial Guardsmen 68-69
Garfield Cadets 70-72
Mike D.
> "Mike D." <mda...@ets.org> wrote in message
> news:52b29b90.01121...@posting.google.com...
>
> Since the 'traditional' sources of members have
> > disappeared, you have to go find another. Happens to be bands, so it
> > behooves the activity to make it as inviting as possible...IMO.
> >
>
> Mike,
>
> Not being one to start a fight ;) I'm curious..
No prob! :-)
>
> Way back in the dark ages, when you first picked up an instrument, in your
> whole lifetime.. what was it?
>
Drums, starting in 4th grade in my school instrumental program, 1962.
Actually, I picked up sabretooth tiger bones and used them to bang on
logs.
:-)
I joined my first corps in 1964. It was the feeder corps to a Garden
State class 'B' corps. My dad took me down to join, as his VFW post
(in our home town) sponsored the corps.
> When you moved on to the next instrument.. what was it?
>
Sax, in summer school between 6th and 7th grade, just for kicks. I
then played bari sax from junior high through high school in concert
and jazz bands. I played percussion in corps, marching band, and
orchestra, and majored in it in college, where I also played bari sax
in jazz ensemble.
I left Garfield after the 71 season and came back in late winter. I
switched from percussion to baritone for that season.
> When you made the transition from one to the other (whether it was keys or
> instruments entirely), was it REALLY a deterrent to you to have to learn the
> new thing?
>
I assume we're talking Bb/F vs G here. :-)
Personally, I don't think the key IS a huge deterrent. Nor do I think
that the argument about kids bringing their own horns holds much
weight either.
I know Al Chez posted about the Xmen's horn line having less
intonation problems initially playing through their charts on Bb/F, as
they don't have to get used to new keys. But, by July and August that
is a moot point.
I do think it a bit more performer-friendly to NOT have to switch back
and forth, esp as they will be playing on their concert horns
throughout the year as well, but it's not a REAL big deal in the long
run, IMO.
Mike
Mike D.
> Mike D. <mda...@ets.org> wrote:
>
> Then explain why BD's sop line sounded so out of tune and shrill during
> the end of their show last year. Partly due to drill demand (which is
> another argument about visual demand overriding musicality), but they've
> had that demand when using G bugles and haven't sounded like they have 4
> sopranos on the field in the past.
> >
Didn't see them at champs, except on TV, a poor place to evaluate
sound quality. I saw them early on in Clifton and a week before champs
in Philly, and they didn't sound as hideous as you make them out to
sound.
> Have the 'traditional' sources of members disappeared or have drum corps
> just totally not focused in those areas? Look at corps like Cadets of
> Brooklyn and Memorial Lancers out of St. Louis. Pretty much all inner
> city kids with little to no musical backgrounds. There's still a lot of
> kids out there looking for something better to do than hang around all
> day, regardless of where they're from.
> >
Well, a lot of those inner city corps are gone, long gone. It's not
the fault of those corps that remain. Why did St Lucy's disband their
corps after the 69 season? Or St Martin's Troubadors, a class 'B'
corps? Or St Vinnie's? Or...the list goes on and on.
For those corps that do serve the inner city, more power to them.
Personally, I'd rather see the kids get into publically funded
scholastic programs where they exist. Cities in NJ such as Newark and
Trenton are resurrecting those programs, thankfully. IMO that is where
the efforts should go, as that is where the $$$ are to fund them.
As for the existing corps, I don't see it as their job to focus on any
area. It's not up to the Cadets, for example, to 'focus' on some
geographic area. Even "in the day" most members came from outside
Garfield; it's one reason the town didn't like us even back in 1970.
Kids came from all over the metro area to march, as happened in lots
of class 'A' corps. The difference today is that the 'all over' has
expanded to include ALL OVER. :-)
> > Since the sounds are so similar, at worst it's a non-issue, so what's
> > the beef?
>
> If the sounds are so similar, this wouldn't be an argument to begin
> with.
Actually, it probably would, "just because". Many people do not hear
all that large a difference. As long as what IS on the field sounds
good, I don't care what the key is. IMO the main factors in the sound
produced are the basic playing skills of the performers and the
skills of the staff at pulling a good sound from them.
Mike
Catherine
> W Souder <wso...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > I hate to tell you this, but they became 'bands' the moment
> > that first valve was added. There haven't been any actual
> > drum and BUGLE corps for about fifty years now.
See the "What Is a Drum Corps" thread. And if "corps" have been
"bands" since the first valve was added, then why are the evos and
"drum corps activity" proponents so demmed pi$$y whenever we trads
point out that the mutant corps are "Brass Bands"?
<snip>
> > We all love this activity.
For some very, VERY different reasons. BTW, does that definition of
"love" have anything to do with "affection that knows no bounds"?
Further, as I told Wayne in April 2000, I love DRUM CORPS. As for the
"drum corps activity", I am apparently the most destructive force, and
I don't believe Mr. Rudnicki is making an inference from Oscar Wilde's
"and each man kills the thing he loves" either.
> > We want it to continue.
Another debateable point - unless what you mean by the "continuation
of the drum corps activity" is Hopkins' idea of 5 or 6 supercorps, or
the Blue Devil hierarchy of elite rewards, er... organization.
> It has changed. It will not change back.
Wanna bet? There are a HELL of a lot of us SCREAMING to "change it
back", and many of us actually DOING it in the HERE AND NOW. We might
not get the press and have the marketing machines (and copyright
monopolies and other abuses of power) that DCI and other groups have
developed...
But we drum corps people can kick some real a$$ when we get pi$$ed off
enough, particularly against a bunch of wussie-cowardly wannabes and
buh-bye-corpspeople <usual nonviolence disclaimers... "if there's
anybody watching <$1 to Monty Python>">.
> > So we can all either bitch and moan that our beloved
> > activity has gone to hell and now totally sucks,
I'm going to do that anyway, because it's my opinion. Everyone and
EVERYONE else can decide for themselves if my words have any genuine
relationship with the reality out there. Personally, THE EMPEROR HAS
NO CLOTHES!!!
> stop going to
DCI Division I shows - except if Madison, Boston and other Key of G
Hornline-entertain the crowd-treat the kids right-real drum corps are
performing
> shows, stop supporting the corps,
stop supporting the bands and mutant corps; but I'll CONTINUE
supporting any drum corps out there
> > curl up with our videotapes and Fleetwood records, and
> > someday tell our grandchildren that "Years ago there used
> > to be a thing called 'drum and bugle corps..."
That may well happen. And at least we will know that we didn't
rewrite history, calling those days "stuck-in-the-past and boring".
They were the heyday of drum & bugle corps, when people focused more
on the performances and ripping their clothes off screaming instead of
debating whether or not it was even still drum corps.
> > Or we can give this Bb thing time to work,
It will NEVER happen. The ONLY reason for Bb horns is a load of
political BULL$HIT that continues the downslide of real drum corps.
IMO. The Bb (except Scout House) and multi-key units may be great
performance groups which offer a good musical experience to their
members...
But it's NOT DRUM CORPS!!!
> > continue to go to shows, continue to support
> > individual corps and someday actually watch
> > our grandchildren at DCI finals.
If you really believe that those people who are pushing for these
changes are going to "save the drum corps activity", I've got a bridge
I need to sell...
> > What's your choice?
>
> My choice is to march with my senior corps and play on G instruments
> and, when I have grandchildren, bring them to shows that I'm in. :)
Thank you, Mr. Gamin. And that's my plan as well. Nor will I settle
for ANYthing less, because today's and tomorrow's kids DESERVE at
least that much from us. And DRUM CORPS deserves our best efforts and
not a load of BS.
-- Catherine
Catherine Burr
Message-ID:
<93e9a2e7.01121...@posting.google.com>
<snip>
> stop going to
-- Catherine
P.S. - my VK brother Manny added:
It seems to me that the game is now in Div II It would
be cool if the directors took the view to seperate
themselves from the "upper crust"
This is not your fathers' Drum Corps, but a twisted
shadow of its former self.
I dont jump in much, but that is just me...
you can quote me on this.
=====
Catherine Burr
cather...@yahoo.com
Personal Webpage:
http://www.geocities.com/catherineburr/
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JJAYBOYD
wonderful example.... Like I have said many times... the HORN that is being
used really doesnt alter the activity! Its about musical movement and visual
interpertation... bottom line.
YES...it does change the 'title' of Drum and Bugle Corps... but the activity
and what people have come to see and hear... will NOT.
IN MY OPINION.
Thanks Al for offering such insight ... I think a lot of people (me included)
view your opinion in high regard.
Jason Plawner
Tom Pohl
One of the reasons old school hornlines (pre-mid 70's) don't sound as
good as hornlines do today is because the horns themselves were of
poorer quality than today's bugles. One day I picked up an old Getzen
Deluxe American Champion valve/slide baritone that I have just to what
it sounded like. It sounded like it was made from a piece of tin! It
makes my 3-valve DEG Dynasty sound like a work of art. The quality of
bugles have improved over the years, which has helped to increase the
quality of sound of hornlines in general.
Tom Pohl
Sunrisers 1992-Present
Catherine
news:3520-3C1...@storefull-134.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Jason,
>
> One of the reasons old school hornlines (pre-mid 70's) don't sound as
> good as hornlines do today
Matter of opinion - and liking drum corps sound.
> is because the horns themselves were of
> poorer quality than today's bugles.
Gee - amazing we could play those things then.
> One day I picked up an old Getzen
> Deluxe American Champion valve/slide baritone that I have just to what
> it sounded like. It sounded like it was made from a piece of tin! It
> makes my 3-valve DEG Dynasty sound like a work of art.
Tell ya what - I'll find a single-valve Conn and match my sound on that
piece of $hit (yes, that's what we used to call them) against yours
(disclaimer - no Ab's). See ya at DCA.
> The quality of bugles have improved over the years, which has helped
> to increase the quality of sound of hornlines in general.
And decrease the average development of the chops of those who played them,
IMO.
That's not to say that what can be achieved on today's band instruments
isn't wonderful music. But using your standards, we ought to set fire to
bagpipes and other "untunables" as having NO PLACE in musical/marching arts.
There are virtues to valve-rotor and single-valve horns, and their
acceptance and accessibility to those people who wouldn't be caught dead
playing in a band. And if one posits that band and corps values are the
same, let's just do away with drum corps now and everyone be a band NOW.
If you resist that idea, then you are saying there are DIFFERENCES about
drum corps that ought to be maintained. I will admit that I feel there are
greater virtues - than most VOCAL others in today's drum corps activity
currently accept - to 60s drum corps values that would be just as, if not
more applicable to drum corps TODAY. But I have a long time ahead of me and
the persistence to keep persuading, and empowering all those others who feel
as I do (particularly those who have given up on "drum corps" over the
decades) to REBUILD.
-- Catherine
-- Catherine
> Tom Pohl
> Sunrisers 1992-Present
thetrumpetofthelord
> > Maybe this is because they were playing on Kanstul horns, as opposed to
> the
> > DEGs and Tamaha horns that everyobne else played on. The Kanstul horns
> are
> > .470 bore, same as the Kanstul G bugles.
neither have the tune a note feature.
The KMS 103 has a larger leadpipe than the COL 103.
I am not sure if the KMS is still in production as Kanstul has taken
it off of their website.I own both the KMS 103 Bb and the G (
powerbore) Kanstul Bugles.
These two horns play very different, the G bugle is louder and more
powerful, and the Bb bugle is very bright and open . It took me a
while to adjust from the 468 bore Blessing trumpet to the 470 bore Bb
KMS 103.The Blessing and the KMS 103 do not play alike at all, the
Blessing is dark, the KMS very very bright, and very open, but it
will not crank as much as the powerbore, and i wish that it had tune a
note, it would be nice if tune a note was offered on more horns.
Howdy
"for the kids".
> >
>
> From DEG's website.....
>
> "Dynasty Marching Bb Trumpet Outfit
> 010-400L
> Features include a 5" (127mm) bell, .468" (11.89mm) bore, 21 1/4" (540mm)
> length"
>
> (specs on Kanstul's trumpet: .470" bore, 5 1/16" bell, 19" length
> specs on Kanstul's bugles: .470" bore, 5" (5 1/16" for powerbore) bell , 18"
> (19 1/8" for powerbore) length.
> specs on Dynasty's bugle: .460" bore, 5" bell, 19.5" length)
>
>
> Does .002" make that much of a difference?
> There has to be something in the design of the Kanstul's compared to the
> Dynasty's... right?
>
> Not an attempt at a flame: I'm really clueless about brass
> design/construction.... so, maybe that .002" does make a huge difference...
> I just found it interesting that Dynasty's bugle would have a smaller bore
> than their trumpet (since the size of the bore does affect volume in some
> way, right?)
>
> --Michael Winterberg
JJAYBOYD
using rotar valve hors and one piston valves... see how poorly THEY 'draw' an
audience....
No matter what anyone says here I still maintain that the level of excellence
achieved in corps STILL far exceeds 'bands'.... and there is a difference.
It is this thinking that means we should still be marching up and down the
yardlines with mirror drill patters that would KILL or would have killed this
activity.....
Older was good in its day....and there is a place for those like Catherine that
wish to keep things 'that' way... its called Alumni Corps...dont get me wrong..
I give them credit and applause.. but if you make me sit through 10 of them in
one show? Forget it... id run away from this activity like my ass was on
fire....
Everyones personal opinion and taste has a place... there are senior corps..
junior corps.. alumni corps... and each does their own 'thing'...
Jason Plawner
Gary Peterson
news:20011212210016...@mb-fo.aol.com...
> rebuild... why not start an entire competitive circut with ONLY those
corps
> using rotar valve hors and one piston valves... see how poorly THEY 'draw'
an
> audience....
>
> No matter what anyone says here I still maintain that the level of
excellence
> achieved in corps STILL far exceeds 'bands'.... and there is a difference.
Agreed but the differences are shrinking. Soon the two will be
interchangeable.
>
> It is this thinking that means we should still be marching up and down the
> yardlines with mirror drill patters that would KILL or would have killed
this
> activity.....
Not saying that I prefer those drills but, drum corps was in it's heyday
back when that was happening. Is there a coralation? I don't know, maybe
it's just that way things happened. It seems that something is killing the
activity and you can't blame it on the old timers. Just because they zip
around the field making pretty patterns doesn't neccesarily mean that it is
more exciting to watch. Something is keeping the people away. And in my
opinion they are getting set to drive more away.
>
> Older was good in its day....and there is a place for those like Catherine
that
> wish to keep things 'that' way... its called Alumni Corps...dont get me
wrong..
> I give them credit and applause.. but if you make me sit through 10 of
them in
> one show? Forget it... id run away from this activity like my ass was on
> fire....
People not only sat through more than 10 of them in one show, they came in
droves and stood and applauded multiple times during a corps performances
not just at the end out of courtesy. There are parts of todays corps that I
like better and parts of the "old" corps that I like better. Contrary to
you, I don't think I could sit through 12 of todays shows. It was all I
could do to sit through five of them last summer. And I really tried hard to
keep and open mind and just enjoy what I saw. I see very little that excites
me and makes me want to go back for more. Judging from the attendance
figures, I am not the only one that feels that way. Just curious, what year
did you see your first drum corps show? The first time I saw the Troopers in
70 I was totally mesmerized. They marched as if they were one. The knee
heights were all the same, their posture was all the same. They stood tall
and proud and marched like it meant something to them. The rifles went up
to the same height together and came down together as if they were attached
to a string.
>
> Everyones personal opinion and taste has a place... there are senior
corps..
> junior corps.. alumni corps... and each does their own 'thing'...
I agree but many of us that marched way back when would love to see that
acitivity still be something that we can enjoy. I would think that DCI would
want to get people back in the stands. We are those people. Do something to
make us want to go to shows. In 1979 I left work in MA on Friday night,
drove all night to Birmingham, watched the finals, got up Sunday morning
drove back to MA to be back at work on Monday. I was fanatic about drum
corps back then as many people were. I wouldn't do something like that today
even if I had the time. Not trying to put any of the corps down, just
stating the way that I feel. I am not alone and DCI just doesn't seem to
understand that. As long as DCI has enough corps to put together tours and
to make a finals show and make enough money for themselves they will be
happy. They are the be all and end all of drum corps and that is why it is
in the state it's in IMO. They had noble intentions in the beginning but
they have gotten too big for their britches. DEATH TO THE TYRANTS!! (had to
put that in for effect)
Gary Peterson
Defenders-Rockland, MA
74-78
>
> Jason Plawner
>
Catherine
Quite a number of valid points, IMO.
>> Soon the two will be interchangeable.
>
>I dont forsee that... sorry, nothing you say will make me believe
>that. Bands are bands... corps are corps. The intensity level...
>level of commitment... musicianship... I dont see it ever happening.
So then how do we reconcile the apparent inconsistency between what I
believe you are saying - that bands and corps ARE different - and,
say, Mike Davis' assertions that musicality in corps and bands are the
same (or OK if they are the same thing), marching technique and drills
in corps and bands are the same (or OK if they are the same thing),
etc. (Do correct me if I misstate your assertions, Mike, as I know
you will >(;^)< ).
IMO, Mr. Peterson's point is the more correct point. Any existing
differences between corps and bands are still here due to the
historical process, and are rapidly diminishing in scope - if nothing
is done to draw the lines in the sand.
Further, the greater emphasis on musical techniques, instrumentation,
"competitive values" and guards vs. dancers and pits vs. marching
further obscures what I believe to be even more vital to the
differences between bands and corps:
The emphasis on musical technique and achievement in bands vs. the
fraternal building of group honor, tradition, communication and
connections to the community and our culture (as discussed in
yesterday's "What is drum corps?" thread), and the growth and
development of each and every marching member as a well-rounded
musician AND human being, one of the many.
>>It seems that something is killing the
>>activity and you can't blame it on the old timers.
>
>No.. I dont blame it all on the old timers. When all the corps
>can find their own identity and SELL 'it' as they say... then
>things will change. As it is right now, you have a lot of
>staffs out there who dont have the ability to create their own
>identity. That may be similar to network television executives
>who have no "balls" (so to speak) in that everything HAS to be
>a hit, so they just 'follow the leader', even if THEY dont know
>how to create the same kind of show chemistry.
>
>Once the Cadets in the early to mid 80's started doing their
>'thing' and winning... every corps figured they had to do 'it'
>the same way... even if they didnt know how to teach it... Hence
>you had corps like Sky Ryders going from their story telling
>idiom which won them praise and applause to where they were
>just before they dissapeared....(agreed there might have been
>more reasons than that for their demise)... but if corps staffs
>country wide would just take the time to find music and show
>ideas that THEY THEMSELVES connect with... then teach THAT to
>the corps they are associated with, that love and understanding
>would transcend into the show being taught and would come
>across in the performance of each corps. (in my opinion)
Mr. Plawner -- These paragraphs are, IMO, the finest things you've
ever posted to RAMD. You are EXACTLY RIGHT in what you are saying
here.
Of course, the difficulty is not merely identifying these things in
the minds and hearts of the staff, but also:
1) Gearing such things to the personalities, hopes, desires and
talents of the corps members in front of them. In most cases these
days in Division I DCI corps, such things are largely unknown thanks
to all the short-term newbies and high turnover. This results in less
of a "corps" and more the imposition of staff "visions" upon a motley
crew that such may or may not be suited for.
-AND-
2) Having instructors who are great teachers who place the corps
values - the human elements - FIRST of all. IMO, today's ego- and
resume-credit-oriented drum corps world has led to increasing staff
specialization, division of roles, delegation and more hardened
boundaries and hierarchies.
These days, Wayne Downey is required to attend only one weekend per
month - and he certainly doesn't associate with the kids the way we
used to do (and not just because such is not only politically
incorrect, but illegal). It's far easier to "put the interests of the
corps first" (i.e., screw a few kids over, IMO) when you don't know
them as friends and students for whom one's affection knows no bounds.
Of course, teachers who give a genuine $hit about the best welfare of
each and every student were relatively rare in the old days too. We
just didn't call it "professional", "mature" and "clever" then. We
called THEM a$$holes, and not the kids who bitched about such things.
>>People not only sat through more than 10 of them in one show,
>>they came in droves and stood and applauded multiple times
>>during a corps performances
>and this doesnt happen now?
Jason, it's NOTHING like it was in the old days. Were you at DCA?
Did you SEE and HEAR and FEEL the Caballeros Seniors cheering for
their brethren in the Caballeros Alumni?? Did you see how the
soloists played to and interacted with the crowd, the DMs playing and
interacting with the crowd? Did you feel the AT LEAST FIVE ("were
there only five"? <$1 to whomever>) STANDING O's that weren't the
polite ones of today, but LIFTED up by the corps?
Now, look at old videos - like my 1967 tapes wherein the front stands
are crammed, and the side AND back stands are full. Imagine the
ENTIRE STADIUM acting and interacting with EACH CORPS (or at least the
top 10 out of 60) just like the Cabs Seniors did for their Alumni
corps. Imagine corps shows wherein people know each other in the 10
other corps they've competed against every other week (at least) for
YEARS.
And listen to the old corps who could give blow jobs just as loudly
from the sidelines, with opening and ending fanfares that ROCKED (with
fewer horn players and on those POS bugles), and then the crowds would
be screaming so loudly you have trouble hearing them on the recordings
(my 1967 Caballeros ending fanfare and the Troopers at that Denver
game, for two examples).
No, Jason - this DOESN'T happen now - does it? I'm SORRY that it
doesn't - but I am NOT going to lie about it - and I have videotapes
that PROVE that it's NOT the enhancement of my olde phart memory!!! I
can still see Noni hanging over the side of the PACKED Oriental
Odyssey stadium screaming her A$$ off at SCV doing the Bottle Dance
and the crowd throwing babies!!!
>Have you really sat and watched some of the Cavies
>shows of recent years... the way their drill and music blend
>so beautifully?
We are now describing the differing tastes in drum corps. Yes, it's
quite an achievement. But it doesn't work so well, because you've got
people in a football stadium - with a lot of them getting bored
swatting the mosquitoes, and having to be quiet. And then for those
of us who remember what it USED to be...
Sure, I can understand the argument that "things have changed". But
the simple truth is that drum corps USED to be BELOVED!!! You
couldn't help yourself because the corps TOOK YOU OVER with
overwhelmingly powerful performances - that don't translate well to
recordings, given the setting, the environment, and the CONNECTIONS
and COMMUNICATION that exist in the real-life performances.
>Santa Clara.... I still get goose bumps from the 99 show
>in particular.... Cadets shows have moments where i sit
>in amazement... Phantom Regiment... wow...... I sit in
>the stands with my friends and the friends I make at each
>show and we ALL have our 'goose bump moments'.... Its
>because we have an open mind towards what is being
>presented...
It's not so much a question of "open minds", Jason. There are PLENTY
of fine musicians in drum corps - always have been. It's the nature
of what drum corps WAS compared to what it IS.
What it WAS was a total performance experience that commanded the
crowd and irresistably drew them to the corps' performance. It
brought together and taught kids - and adults - some of them with
nothing else in their lives, some with much to share and all shades
in-between, how to work together and become ONE, and one of the many
in their achievement and EXCELLING in communicating with the crowd,
and the entire STADIUM becoming one.
If I want to "appreciate" the "art" being presented, I'll go to a
symphony or theatre where I can sit in comfort. I'm not going to go
pay $20 for the hope of seeing and hearing a moment of what I *used*
to see - and personally know how to create. The way most of us used
to be taught, we KNOW how to create such things, Jason - and we just
don't see it.
I'm sorry to tell you that flat-out - because it's a sad truth. But
we had better quit whispering that THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES and tell
you kids directly that you are being sold short. That's not to say
that your experiences aren't great for what they are, and probably
better than most of your bands or whatever.
But it's NOWHERE NEAR what we used to feel. And most people (except a
lot of Kilties) at DCA got one HELL of a dose of what nearly EVERY
corps weekend used to be like. Does anyone who was there at Syracuse
even doubt that if our activity was REGULARLY like that again, drum
corps would STILL be growing by leaps and bounds? No? I didn't think
so...
>I find the 'older' generation is turning off
>in droves because of their 'in OUR day' mentallity.
>And they are the ones losing out....
It is NOT because we miss OUR days, Jason - but because we feel the
MERITS of what we had - not ALL the merits, but nearly all the ones
with MEANING and not merely window dressing - are superior. And I,
for one, feel that you AND this activity at large are the ones losing
out... as well as all those who may not ever get to experience again
what we did.
>> what year did you see your first drum corps show?
>
>1982 was the first time I was ever exposed to corps,
>via Video Tape. My first LIVE show was 85 at Giants
>Stadium... Cadets blew me away... and that wasnt
>exactly a show you could walk away 'humming'.. but
>the way they moved around.. and the beauty of what
>they played... BECAUSE of what I heard and the fact
>that I didnt 'know' the music.. led me to find out
>what the repitoire was, and to search out the
>original pieces of music .. fastforward a few years:
>I became a fanatic of Bernstiens music... you see..
>if you USE THE ACTIVITY as a teaching tool.. some
>of us actually learn something and take something
>away from it.... Drum corps opened my mind up
>musically... hence why I look at each show with a
>totally open mind.. what music and ideas will THIS
>corps potentially expose me to....
I'm happy, VERY happy for you, that you have found in drum corps
something fine that you didn't find elsewhere in your life - just as I
found in drum corps things and people that I didn't find elsewhere in
my life. That's something that we both share in drum corps.
But what you yourself have described is that only someone who is
interested in such an "educational" experience that can be
"appreciated" is really going to get a whole lot of interest and
benefit out of it.
On the other hand, pre-DCI drum corps was for the community, the
masses, for ALL kids, as a connection to and celebration of our common
cultural history, of flag and country and veterans. No one gave a
$hit as to whether or not it was a "sport" or an "art".
Drum corps is a communication amongst and a communion for the entire
community, for ALL kids - not just those who (can) audition. And I
believe it needs to be so again in order to survive and REBUILD...
>>The rifles went up to the same height together and
>>came down together as if they were attached to a string.
>
>have you truly watched some of the colorguards of today?
>ARe you SERIOUSLY going to tell me that your statement
>couldnt apply to those of today? The guards of today,
>and dont get me wrong.. I am a horn guy.. not a color
>guard person ...,are AMAZING. Some of the work they do
>astounds me....
Of that, I don't doubt.
>I never NEVER saw in an old tape ANY guard back in the
>'day' toss a sabre and catch it BEHIND their back...
Your experience has been VERY limited. You would not believe the
regular headchoppers, 30 yard tosses (rifles with straps, not commas),
all with that hard-Amazon stare, no running and reaching, and VERY few
drops (if any, because if your corps lost by a tenth, you would feel
it was YOUR tenth that lost the show). But again, I grew up in the
West Coast early 70's guard dream time...
>or for that matter.. how many corps could actually say that
>ALMOST ALL their members could use ALL the aparatus (flags,
>rifles and sabres) with as much proficiency as today...
You ought to have seen Moon Johnson (Kilties) play his baritone and
spin his rifle at Individuals. My sop VK brother Chris O'Connor was a
fine rifle. Noni always did flag, rifle AND saber. And then there
was Kevin (1975 Scout rifle) at my hotel at 1999 DCI twirling a toilet
plunger and giving both Lee and me goosebumps with NO rehearsal...
Back in the day, we had some horn players playing ALL the horns, and
some were also drummers AND guard - and could fill in as DMs and
instructors (like Jim Putman for us at DCA this year - lead sop, and
another "Mr. Drum Corps").
>most back then had them seperated so you
>only had to be good at one maybe two!
And gee whiz, all the band kids were good at BOTH key of G and key of
Bb, Eb and/or F horns too! Thanks for the refutation of THAT
argument, Jason!!
>> DEATH TO THE TYRANTS!! (
WEA WINNEA BEA DAUNTED!!! REBUILD!!!
<etc. - insert your favorite corps hypes here>
>Hey.. i am not saying that the people running drum corps are
>'correct' in all aspects. I think their inability to be
>totally forthcoming with attendance figures appalling...
>I truly think their lack of a functional business attitude
>disgusting... but the people in charge of DCI and then the
>people in charge of the actual corps (staffs, etc) are two
>different animals,
Not always. In some corps, there are people who find the national
political ego-BS far more enervating than being loyal to and building
their own corps. i also believe that there are certain destabilizing
forces working away - particularly those people who could not care
less if drum corps as a separate activity goes away, or corps who
might well be a threat to the "only game in town".
Most of this process is unintentional, and people are being
manipulated. Such is one reason that those who "stay out of politics"
and "don't choose sides" are "allowed" to survive and get the perks...
and provide more cover. But there are those few "clever" people who
know exactly what they do.
Fortunately, their lack of ultimate excellence is their Achilles' heel
- their own lack of confidence to produce that which is genuine. Or,
like David McCallum in the original Outer Limits, to have evolved to
the point of knowing that such nonsense is truly less than what could
and ought to be.
> even if they overlap in areas... in one area they are
> concerned with the survival of their own corps and
> putting an entertaining product on the field.. then on
> the other hand they have to worry about the future
> survivial of the activity....
Your faith in EVERYONE's good intentions - and their ability to carry
them out in the face of human conflicts - is laudable, but doomed,
IMO.
>A lot of what keeps people away from the stands and kids
>away from the corps is not necessarily what it might
>appear to be. This is a whole new world with the
>attention span of an gnat. Kids today dont have the
>work ethic of days gone by (and by that I dont EVEN
>MEAN to insinuate ANY of the kids IN corps.. I am
>referring to those who dont want to put the effort out
>to BE in the corps cause its simply 'too hard')...
>and people are working MUCH HARDER and LONGER these
>days and CANT take off like you had the ability back
>when to see a show... people work on weekends more
>to make ends meet... A lot has to do with the
>unfortunate aspects of 'the real world' and not so
>much what corps 'isnt giving them'.. as it is what
>life is TAKING from them....
Another reason why if you don't CARE as much as we USED to care about
corps, people aren't going to do it.
Don't blame the victims for the failures of the Hall of Shamers and
gods of all time, Jason. The facts are that they cannot do what their
forefathers did - and that some of their political enemies can still
do - and ARE doing.
>a bit long.. but I feel I made some vaild points sir. :)
Agreed. And those who have a problem with length, analysis and
thought can just BITE ME!! <$1 to Ron A.>
-- Catherine
JJAYBOYD
>interchangeable.
I dont forsee that... sorry, nothing you say will make me believe that. Bands
are bands... corps are corps. The intensity level... level of commitment...
musicianship... I dont see it ever happening.
>It seems that something is killing the
>activity and you can't blame it on the old timers.
No.. I dont blame it all on the old timers. When all the corps can find their
own identity and SELL 'it' as they say... then things will change. As it is
right now, you have a lot of staffs out there who dont have the ability to
create their own identity. That may be similar to network television
executives who have no "balls" (so to speak) in that everything HAS to be a
hit, so they just 'follow the leader', even if THEY dont know how to create the
same kind of show chemistry.
Once the Cadets in the early to mid 80's started doing their 'thing' and
winning... every corps figured they had to do 'it' the same way... even if they
didnt know how to teach it... Hence you had corps like Sky Ryders going from
their story telling idiom which won them praise and applause to where they were
just before they dissapeared....(agreed there might have been more reasons than
that for their demise)... but if corps staffs country wide would just take the
time to find music and show ideas that THEY THEMSELVES connect with... then
teach THAT to the corps they are associated with, that love and understanding
would transcend into the show being taught and would come across in the
performance of each corps. (in my opinion)
>People not only sat through more than 10 of them in one show, they came in
>droves and stood and applauded multiple times during a corps performances
and this doesnt happen now? Have you really sat and watched some of the Cavies
shows of recent years... the way their drill and music blend so beautifully?
Santa Clara.... I still get goose bumps from the 99 show in particular....
Cadets shows have moments where i sit in amazement... Phantom Regiment...
wow...... I sit in the stands with my friends and the friends I make at each
show and we ALL have our 'goose bump moments'.... Its because we have an open
mind towards what is being presented... I find the 'older' generation is
turning off in droves because of their ' in OUR day' mentallity. And they are
the ones losing out....
> what year
>did you see your first drum corps show?
1982 was the first time I was ever exposed to corps, via Video Tape. My first
LIVE show was 85 at Giants Stadium... Cadets blew me away... and that wasnt
exactly a show you could walk away 'humming'.. but the way they moved around..
and the beauty of what they played... BECAUSE of what I heard and the fact that
I didnt 'know' the music.. led me to find out what the repitoire was, and to
search out the original pieces of music .. fastforward a few years: I became a
fanatic of Bernstiens music... you see.. if you USE THE ACTIVITY as a teaching
tool.. some of us actually learn something and take something away from it....
Drum corps opened my mind up musically... hence why I look at each show with a
totally open mind.. what music and ideas will THIS corps potentially expose me
to....
>The rifles went up
>to the same height together and came down together as if they were attached
>to a string.
have you truly watched some of the colorguards of today? ARe you SERIOUSLY
going to tell me that your statement couldnt apply to those of today? The
guards of today, and dont get me wrong.. I am a horn guy.. not a color guard
person ...,are AMAZING. Some of the work they do astounds me.... I never NEVER
saw in an old tape ANY guard back in the 'day' toss a sabre and catch it BEHIND
their back... or for that matter.. how many corps could actually say that
ALMOST ALL their members could use ALL the aparatus (flags, rifles and sabres)
with as much proficiency as today... most back then had them seperated so you
only had to be good at one maybe two!
> DEATH TO THE TYRANTS!! (
Hey.. i am not saying that the people running drum corps are 'correct' in all
aspects. I think their inability to be totally forthcoming with attendance
figures appalling... I truly think their lack of a functional business attitude
disgusting... but the people in charge of DCI and then the people in charge of
the actual corps (staffs, etc) are two different animals, even if they overlap
in areas... in one area they are concerned with the survival of their own corps
and putting an entertaining product on the field.. then on the other hand they
have to worry about the future survivial of the activity....
A lot of what keeps people away from the stands and kids away from the corps is
not necessarily what it might appear to be. This is a whole new world with the
attention span of an gnat. Kids today dont have the work ethic of days gone by
(and by that I dont EVEN MEAN to insinuate ANY of the kids IN corps.. I am
referring to those who dont want to put the effort out to BE in the corps cause
its simply 'too hard')... and people are working MUCH HARDER and LONGER these
days and CANT take off like you had the ability back when to see a show...
people work on weekends more to make ends meet... A lot has to do with the
unfortunate aspects of 'the real world' and not so much what corps 'isnt giving
them'.. as it is what life is TAKING from them....
a bit long.. but I feel I made some vaild points sir. :)
jason
JJAYBOYD
I in no way intended to 'slam' you or any alumni organization... I was,
unintentionally, lumping all in the same.. and wrong to do so.
What I was attempting to say was in response to a post saying that some people
do like to use the old horns... and if they want to.. let them.. and if you
want to use 3 valve bugles.. so be it.... everyone has a place for what they
want to use...
Jason
Catherine Burr
(JJAYBOYD) wrote:
Quite a number of valid points, IMO.
>> Soon the two will be interchangeable.
>
>I dont forsee that... sorry, nothing you say will
make me believe that. Bands are bands... corps are
corps. The intensity level... level of commitment...
musicianship... I dont see it ever happening.<
So then how do we reconcile the apparent inconsistency
>>It seems that something is killing the
Mr. Plawner -- These paragraphs are, IMO, the finest
-AND-
>>People not only sat through more than 10 of them in
one show, they came in droves and stood and applauded
multiple times during a corps performances <<
>and this doesnt happen now? <
Jason, it's NOTHING like it was in the old days. Were
>Have you really sat and watched some of the Cavies
shows of recent years... the way their drill and music
blend so beautifully?<
We are now describing the differing tastes in drum
corps. Yes, it's quite an achievement. But it
doesn't work so well, because you've got people in a
football stadium - with a lot of them getting bored
swatting the mosquitoes, and having to be quiet. And
then for those of us who remember what it USED to
be...
Sure, I can understand the argument that "things have
changed". But the simple truth is that drum corps
USED to be BELOVED!!! You couldn't help yourself
because the corps TOOK YOU OVER with overwhelmingly
powerful performances - that don't translate well to
recordings, given the setting, the environment, and
the CONNECTIONS and COMMUNICATION that exist in the
real-life performances.
>Santa Clara.... I still get goose bumps from the 99
show in particular.... Cadets shows have moments
where i sit in amazement... Phantom Regiment...
wow...... I sit in the stands with my friends and the
friends I make at each show and we ALL have our 'goose
bump moments'.... Its because we have an open mind
towards what is being presented...<
It's not so much a question of "open minds", Jason.
>I find the 'older' generation is turning off
in droves because of their 'in OUR day' mentallity.
And they are the ones losing out....<
It is NOT because we miss OUR days, Jason - but
because we feel the MERITS of what we had - not ALL
the merits, but nearly all the ones with MEANING and
not merely window dressing - are superior. And I, for
one, feel that you AND this activity at large are the
ones losing out... as well as all those who may not
ever get to experience again what we did.
>> what year did you see your first drum corps show?<<
>
>1982 was the first time I was ever exposed to corps,
via Video Tape. My first LIVE show was 85 at Giants
Stadium... Cadets blew me away... and that wasnt
exactly a show you could walk away 'humming'.. but
the way they moved around.. and the beauty of what
they played... BECAUSE of what I heard and the fact
that I didnt 'know' the music.. led me to find out
what the repitoire was, and to search out the
original pieces of music .. fastforward a few years:
I became a fanatic of Bernstiens music... you see..
if you USE THE ACTIVITY as a teaching tool.. some
of us actually learn something and take something
away from it.... Drum corps opened my mind up
musically... hence why I look at each show with a
totally open mind.. what music and ideas will THIS
corps potentially expose me to....<
I'm happy, VERY happy for you, that you have found in
drum corps something fine that you didn't find
elsewhere in your life - just as I found in drum corps
things and people that I didn't find elsewhere in my
life. That's something that we both share in drum
corps.
But what you yourself have described is that only
someone who is interested in such an "educational"
experience that can be "appreciated" is really going
to get a whole lot of interest and benefit out of it.
On the other hand, pre-DCI drum corps was for the
community, the masses, for ALL kids, as a connection
to and celebration of our common cultural history, of
flag and country and veterans. No one gave a $hit as
to whether or not it was a "sport" or an "art".
Drum corps is a communication amongst and a communion
for the entire community, for ALL kids - not just
those who (can) audition. And I believe it needs to
be so again in order to survive and REBUILD...
>>The rifles went up to the same height together and
came down together as if they were attached to a
string.<<
>
>have you truly watched some of the colorguards of
today? ARe you SERIOUSLY going to tell me that your
statement couldnt apply to those of today? The guards
of today, and dont get me wrong.. I am a horn guy..
not a color guard person ...,are AMAZING. Some of the
work they do astounds me.... <
Of that, I don't doubt. I agree with what you have
said.
>I never NEVER saw in an old tape ANY guard back in
the 'day' toss a sabre and catch it BEHIND their
back... <
Your experience has been VERY limited. You would not
believe the regular headchoppers, 30 yard tosses
(rifles with straps, not commas), all with that
hard-Amazon stare, no running and reaching, and VERY
few drops (if any, because if your corps lost by a
tenth, you would feel it was YOUR tenth that lost the
show). But again, I grew up in the West Coast early
70's guard dream time...
>or for that matter.. how many corps could actually
say that ALMOST ALL their members could use ALL the
aparatus (flags, rifles and sabres) with as much
proficiency as today... <
MORE proficiency. You ought to have seen Moon Johnson
(Kilties) play his baritone and spin his rifle at
Individuals. My sop VK brother Chris O'Connor was a
fine rifle. Noni always did flag, rifle AND saber.
And then there was Kevin (1975 Scout rifle) at my
hotel at 1999 DCI twirling a toilet plunger and giving
both Lee and me goosebumps with NO rehearsal...
Back in the day, we had some horn players playing ALL
the horns, and some were also drummers AND guard - and
could fill in as DMs and instructors (like Jim Putman
for us at DCA this year - lead sop, and another "Mr.
Drum Corps").
>most back then had them seperated so you
only had to be good at one maybe two!<
And gee whiz, all the band kids were good at BOTH key
of G and key of Bb, Eb and/or F horns too! Thanks for
the refutation of THAT argument, Jason!!
Further, when kids by and large marched 5-10 years in
drum corps... Lots more time and interest to learn
EVERYthing.
>> DEATH TO THE TYRANTS!! ( <<
WEA WINNEA BEA DAUNTED!!! REBUILD!!!
<etc. - insert your favorite corps hypes here>
>Hey.. i am not saying that the people running drum
corps are 'correct' in all aspects. I think their
inability to be totally forthcoming with attendance
figures appalling... I truly think their lack of a
functional business attitude disgusting... but the
people in charge of DCI and then the people in charge
of the actual corps (staffs, etc) are two
different animals,<
Not always. In some corps, there are people who find
the national political ego-BS far more enervating than
being loyal to and building their own corps. I also
believe that there are certain destabilizing forces
working away - particularly those people who could not
care less if drum corps as a separate activity goes
away, or corps who might well be a threat to the "only
game in town".
Most of this process is unintentional, and people are
being manipulated. Such is one reason that those who
"stay out of politics" and "don't choose sides" are
"allowed" to survive and get the perks... and provide
more cover. But there are those few "clever" people
who know exactly what they do.
Fortunately, their lack of ultimate excellence is
their Achilles' heel - their own lack of confidence to
produce that which is genuine. Or, like David
McCallum in the original Outer Limits, to have evolved
to the point of knowing that such nonsense is truly
less than what could and ought to be.
> even if they overlap in areas... in one area they
are concerned with the survival of their own corps and
putting an entertaining product on the field.. then on
the other hand they have to worry about the future
survivial of the activity.... <
Your faith in EVERYONE's good intentions - and their
ability to carry them out in the face of human
conflicts - is laudable, but doomed, IMO. If you
build great drum corps, the people will come.
>A lot of what keeps people away from the stands and
kids away from the corps is not necessarily what it
might appear to be. This is a whole new world with
the attention span of an gnat. Kids today dont have
the work ethic of days gone by (and by that I dont
EVEN
MEAN to insinuate ANY of the kids IN corps.. I am
referring to those who dont want to put the effort out
to BE in the corps cause its simply 'too hard')...
and people are working MUCH HARDER and LONGER these
days and CANT take off like you had the ability back
when to see a show... people work on weekends more
to make ends meet... A lot has to do with the
unfortunate aspects of 'the real world' and not so
much what corps 'isnt giving them'.. as it is what
life is TAKING from them....<
Another reason why if you don't CARE as much as we
USED to care about corps, people aren't going to do
it.
Jason, the numbers of people selling chocolates and
light bulbs and raffle tickets door-to-door, kids'
parents sewing unis and flags... Many corps kids were
POORER - like the ones I marched alongside from the
Watts projects and other depressed areas in L.A. And
then there is MY lovely family and school
background... For kids like me, corps was a refuge
that I moved heaven and earth to be in.
Don't blame the victims for the failures of the Hall
of Shamers and gods of all time, Jason. The facts are
that they cannot do what their forefathers did - and
that some of their political enemies can still do -
and ARE doing.
>a bit long.. but I feel I made some vaild points sir.
:)
Agreed. And those who have a problem with length,
analysis and thought can just BITE ME!! <$1 to Ron
A.>
-- Catherine
=====
Catherine Burr
cather...@yahoo.com
Personal Webpage:
http://www.geocities.com/catherineburr/
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Posted from web13805.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.15]
Catherine Burr
news:<20011213155447...@mb-ch.aol.com>...
>
> From: jjay...@aol.com (JJAYBOYD)
>
> >why not start an entire competitive circut with
ONLY those corps using rotar valve hors and one piston
valves... see how poorly THEY 'draw' an audience....
>
for those like Catherine that wish to keep things
'that' way... its called Alumni Corps...
>
> What makes you think Alumni corps want valve rotor
horns? It is a matter of affordability. When Mighty
St. Joe's Alumni Started in 1991, all we could
afford to purchase was old valve rotor horns that had
belonged to a disbanded Fireman's Corps. Over the
years we have upgraded to two valves and as of 2
years ago, all our horns, with the exception of a few
contras, are 3 valve. We might be old, but we are not
stupid. Today's 3 valve bugles are a blessing,
anyone who thinks valve rotor or valve slide bugles
are better, either never played on a 3 valve or they
need their ears checked.
>
> Benny
Benny --
3-valve horns existed 30 years ago as well. Remember
the 1979 DCI resolution? To allow 2-valve bugles as
long as 3-valve horns were NEVER permitted?
Do you honestly believe that Jim Ott and Hy Dreitzer,
amongst others, were such terrible musicians needing
their ears checked? After all, they could have said
THEN that since 3-valve horns were so OBVIOUSLY
superior, let's just change now...
So, for some strange reason, valve-rotor bugles were
once thought MORE than sufficient for D&B corps... but
then someone thought they knew better, just like now
3-valves are no longer considered VERBOTEN. WHY is
that?
Do you ever try to understand why one era thought one
way was BLASPHEMY for drum & bugle corps, and "now"
it's the "evolved" way to go? And those who think
otherwise "need their ears checked" or, according to
Mr. Nipper, has obvious issues with their mental
state?
You obviously didn't hear Mr. Dan Fitz play his
slip-slide FH at I&E. Do you also think that slide
trombones play out of tune?
Either we actually PREFERRED the "old" drum corps
sound, much like bagpipes have their own virtues,
and/or SOME of us were somehow able to play those
horns in tune - or both.
And for many of us, that process of musicianship
produced some pretty phenomenally "out-of-tune"
performances... like Chris Metzger, Pepe Notaro, Hy
Dreitzer, Ken Norman, and WAY too many solos and
hornline performances to mention - in a flourishing,
exciting and growing drum corps activity...
*AND*
"JJAYBOYD" <jjay...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:<20011213162715...@mb-mq.aol.com>...
> Benny...
>
> I in no way intended to 'slam' you or any alumni
organization... I was, unintentionally, lumping all in
the same.. and wrong to do so.<
Will we see you at the alumni show in Scranton then,
Jason?
> What I was attempting to say was in response to a
post saying that some people do like to use the old
horns... and if they want to.. let them.. and if you
want to use 3 valve bugles.. so be it.... everyone has
a place for what they want to use...
>
> Jason
We 100% agree again, Jason - the glaciers are moving
towards the firey pits as we type... <tee>
-- Catherine
=====
Catherine Burr
cather...@yahoo.com
Personal Webpage:
http://www.geocities.com/catherineburr/
__________________________________________________
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Posted from web13808.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.18]
Hank Nipper
<blather snipped>
Wow... I'm on the road this week so I don't have time rip Catherine's post
apart line by line. Let me just say this....
What a pile of cow dung! No one can possibly care or respect Catherine's
opinions about the difference between bands and corps after reading this
particular post. Can she possibly imagine more non-existent facts?
You don't even need to debate her. She ruins her arguments all by her self
(someone needs to clue her in...an opinion is not fact... a fact is not an
opinion). This is pure, 100% blather who's only entertainment value is from
amazement....amazement any individual could possibly believe this garbage.
You go girl! Keep this up. It simply reinforces what RAMD already knows
about your mental state.
- Hank
PS: Being away from RAMD for a few days gives you a fresh perspective on
this. It's simply amazing how utterly illogical Catherine's arguments can
be!
Catherine Burr
<hankn...@mac.com> wrote:
><cather...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
><blather snipped>
>
>Wow... I'm on the road this week so I don't have time
rip Catherine's post apart line by line. Let me just
say this....<
Translation: No substantive counterarguments.
>What a pile of cow dung!
Voila!!
>No one can possibly care or respect Catherine's
>opinions about the difference between bands and
>corps after reading this particular post. Can
>she possibly imagine more non-existent facts?
Mr. Nipper, speaking for EVERYONE, has just insulted
the ability of RAMD lurkers and posters to think for
themselves. Of course, now that my statements - AND
those of Messrs. Plawner's and Peterson's which I have
wholeheartedly agreed with - have been so
authoritatively <TEE> derided by such logical and
substantive argumentation <TEE!>, how could anyone
hoping to suck up to EVERYONE agree with them?
>You don't even need to debate her. She ruins her
arguments all by her self (someone needs to clue her
in...an opinion is not fact... a fact is not an
opinion). This is pure, 100% blather who's only
entertainment value is from amazement....amazement any
individual could possibly believe this garbage.<
You don't even need to debate Mr. Nipper. He ruins
his arguments all be himself (someone needs to clue
him in... an opinion is not fact... a fact is not an
opinion). This is pure, 100% blather that's only
entertainment value is from amazement....amazement any
individual could possibly believe these manipulations,
er... garbage.
>You go girl! Keep this up. It simply reinforces
what RAMD already knows<
i.e., what EVERYONE would like to have RAMD lurkers
believe
>about your mental state.
Diagnosing people's mental states from their personal
opinions which conflicts with your personal opinions,
tsk, tsk. Gee, Mr. Nipper... Thank you for detailing
so VERY clearly just WHY - and how - EVERYONE came to
such conclusions.
I suppose that such mischaracterizations and personal
attacks (on RAMD *&* in real life) are the results of
lifetime achievements of excellence and the evolution
of our flourishing drum corps activity.
You must be VERY proud of the person that YOUR version
of drum corps has made of you - and the fine, fun,
professional EVERYONE of which you are such a shining
example.
>- Hank
>
>PS: Being away from RAMD for a few days gives you a
fresh perspective on this. It's simply amazing how
utterly illogical Catherine's arguments can be!<
And it's simply amazing for EVERYONE to think that I
could ever have come to love drum corps as I do if the
VAST MAJORITY of REAL drum corps people were like
EVERYONE - who likes to THINK that they can manipulate
RAMD as a propaganda tool for this activity.
I have faith in the general decency of the many to see
through this wannabe $hit, Mr. Nipper. You, IMO, have
faith in degradation, abuse of political dissidents
and mediocrity.
We'll just have to see what the many decide - and
DEMAND from their instructors, corps management, and
how they will vote with their presence and their
dollars as fans.
For if *I*, as a "delusional cow", can stand up and
speak my opinion despite all the BS, then more and
more will realize that they too can say THE EMPEROR
HAS NO CLOTHES... and the bullies and bull$hitter$
have NO power other than what decent people grant to
them - and which has been taken by the parasites.
It's certainly not been fun, but such genuineness -
from which we can REBUILD - is far better than
allowing all this "fun" and the inevitable end of our
separate activity.
-- Catherine
=====
Catherine Burr
cather...@yahoo.com
Personal Webpage:
http://www.geocities.com/catherineburr/
__________________________________________________
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Posted from web13804.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.14]
Ben Wilt
From: jjay...@aol.com (JJAYBOYD)
>why not start an entire competitive circut with ONLY those corps
>using rotar valve hors and one piston valves... see how poorly THEY 'draw' an
>audience....
>Older was good in its day....and there is a place for those like Catherine
>that
>wish to keep things 'that' way... its called Alumni Corps...
VKGARRY73
>What a pile of cow dung! No one can possibly care or respect Catherine's
>opinions about the difference between bands and corps after reading this
>particular post. Can she possibly imagine more non-existent facts?
>
Non-existant in who's opinion, Hank? Yours? seems like Catherine spent more
time agreeing with Jason than disagreeing. She went into great detail
explaining why she feels the way she does, and I would agree with a great deal
of what she wrote.
Imagine? I think not. When did you march, and could that possibly cloud your
opinion?
>You don't even need to debate her.
But you had to...why?
>(someone needs to clue her in...an opinion is not fact... a fact is not an
>opinion).
Which would explain Catherine using the phrase "I believe". She made it clear
it is her opinion.
>This is pure, 100% blather who's only entertainment value is from
>amazement....amazement any individual could possibly believe this garbage.
Prepare yourself for even more amazement as more RAMDers respond to this post.
VKG
PS Is it safe to assume you had NOTHING to add to the discussion?
Always remember you are unique...just like everyone else.
><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>¸.
·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>
Ben Wilt
>From: "Catherine Burr"
>, and "now"
>it's the "evolved" way to go? And those who think
>otherwise "need their ears checked"
Why are you taking what I said out of context? I never said anything about, if
you don't think 3 valve is the "evolved " way to go, you need your ears
checked. Your problem is, you read what you want into things to suit your
argument.
I played valve slide and valve rotor for many more years than I have played 2
and 3 valve bugles. My statement about ears was strictly in reference to the
quality of the pitch and tone of the later Instruments. To each his/her own I
guess.
Benny
Jeff Mitchell
The resolution allowing two vertical pistons was passed prior to the 1976 season, with corps being allowed to upgrade one choir (sop, mid-voice, bari) per season starting in 1977. Contra's could be added at any time. This was a necessity as Olds had informed the activity they would no longer make bugles and were the last remaining company in the bugle business.
Do you honestly believe that Jim Ott and Hy Dreitzer,
amongst others, were such terrible musicians needing
their ears checked? After all, they could have said
THEN that since 3-valve horns were so OBVIOUSLY
superior, let's just change now...
Brass staff members have fought every inch of the way for better instruments throughout the history of the drum corps. The addition of a valve, allowing the valve to move during the performance, the use of the slide, the addition of a rotor, allowing the rotor to be pitched in F#, allowing the valve to be pitched in F, legalization of the contrabass, two valves, three valves, and multikey brass were all resisted by the various powers of the day.
So, for some strange reason, valve-rotor bugles were
once thought MORE than sufficient for D&B corps... but
then someone thought they knew better, just like now
3-valves are no longer considered VERBOTEN. WHY is
that?
Remember valveless bugles were once thought more than sufficient for corps. We now have three valves for the same reason we went to two, a lack of companies willing to manufacture horns. Drum corps feared having one company making bugles and the difficulties a monopoly would bring. They were also dissatisfied with the quality of the instruments being made in the late 1980's. Remember that Star maintained their original 2 valve Kings, rather than switch to three. This was due to the quality of those instruments, which they felt were unequalled, rather than lack of resources.
Do you ever try to understand why one era thought one
way was BLASPHEMY for drum & bugle corps, and "now"
it's the "evolved" way to go? And those who think
otherwise "need their ears checked" or, according to
Mr. Nipper, has obvious issues with their mental
state?
You obviously didn't hear Mr. Dan Fitz play his
slip-slide FH at I&E. Do you also think that slide
trombones play out of tune?
Jeff
Gary Peterson
> > Soon the two will be
> >interchangeable.
>
> I dont forsee that... sorry, nothing you say will make me believe that.
Bands
> are bands... corps are corps. The intensity level... level of
commitment...
> musicianship... I dont see it ever happening.
And nothing you say will make me believe otherwise. It seems drum corps want
to be bands on steroids.
>
> >It seems that something is killing the
> >activity and you can't blame it on the old timers.
>
> No.. I dont blame it all on the old timers. When all the corps can find
their
> own identity and SELL 'it' as they say... then things will change. As it
is
> right now, you have a lot of staffs out there who dont have the ability to
> create their own identity. That may be similar to network television
> executives who have no "balls" (so to speak) in that everything HAS to be
a
> hit, so they just 'follow the leader', even if THEY dont know how to
create the
> same kind of show chemistry.
You made an excellent point! Drum corps are afraind to do anything agains
the norm becuase they know it will hurt them. There needs to be great
latitude given to corps that try something different. There are two many
"cookie cutter" corps. For instance, when did it become neccesarry to "name"
your show? Corps used to play music. Sometimes it had a theme, most of the
time it didn't.
>
> Once the Cadets in the early to mid 80's started doing their 'thing' and
> winning... every corps figured they had to do 'it' the same way... even if
they
> didnt know how to teach it... Hence you had corps like Sky Ryders going
from
> their story telling idiom which won them praise and applause to where they
were
> just before they dissapeared....(agreed there might have been more reasons
than
> that for their demise)... but if corps staffs country wide would just take
the
> time to find music and show ideas that THEY THEMSELVES connect with...
then
> teach THAT to the corps they are associated with, that love and
understanding
> would transcend into the show being taught and would come across in the
> performance of each corps. (in my opinion)
Agreed
>
> >People not only sat through more than 10 of them in one show, they came
in
> >droves and stood and applauded multiple times during a corps performances
>
> and this doesnt happen now? Have you really sat and watched some of the
Cavies
> shows of recent years... the way their drill and music blend so
beautifully?
Blending beautifully will make people turn to the person next to them and
say, "My didn't that blend beautifly" it won't make them jump out of their
seat and scream. I have been to shows (unfortuneatley none with Cavies) and
I have witnessed the reaction from the crowd. There were no mass standing
O's. I tried very hard to find something to go crazy about but just
couldn't. Sorry.
> Santa Clara.... I still get goose bumps from the 99 show in particular....
> Cadets shows have moments where i sit in amazement..
Ah there, you said it yourself , key word here is, "sit". We want things to
get us off our butts.
. Phantom Regiment...
> wow...... I sit in the stands with my friends and the friends I make at
each
> show and we ALL have our 'goose bump moments'.... Its because we have an
open
> mind towards what is being presented... I find the 'older' generation is
> turning off in droves because of their ' in OUR day' mentallity. And they
are
> the ones losing out....
We do have open minds. Either something entertains you or it doesn't. As I
said, I go looking for things that excite me. I want to find something that
excites me. I thoroughly enjoyed CBC's version of "Moondance". Maybe just
because it was song I knew but whatever the reason, I like it.
> > what year
> >did you see your first drum corps show?
>
> 1982 was the first time I was ever exposed to corps, via Video Tape. My
first
> LIVE show was 85 at Giants Stadium... Cadets blew me away... and that
wasnt
> exactly a show you could walk away 'humming'.. but the way they moved
around..
> and the beauty of what they played... BECAUSE of what I heard and the fact
that
> I didnt 'know' the music.. led me to find out what the repitoire was, and
to
> search out the original pieces of music .. fastforward a few years: I
became a
> fanatic of Bernstiens music... you see.. if you USE THE ACTIVITY as a
teaching
> tool.. some of us actually learn something and take something away from
it....
> Drum corps opened my mind up musically... hence why I look at each show
with a
> totally open mind.. what music and ideas will THIS corps potentially
expose me
> to....
You seem to be stuck on the musical aspect of drum corps. As a horn player
that is understandable. Drum corps has been a teaching tool since it's
inception. It has taught countless thousands of kids the meaning of self
respect, pride, responsability, what it means to be a part of a group of
people that depends on everyone doing their job in order to be successful.
It has taught kids what can come of things if you are determined and work
hard enough. It has taught kids how to care about other people. It has
instilled a work ethic in kids that they have taken with them into their
chosen (or not so chosen) professions. It has shown them how to set goals
and how to attain them. It has taught kids how to lose gracefully and how to
win graciously. It has taught kids that we are all a part of something
bigger than just our solitary selves. Not every kid that marches in a drum
corps wants to learn about music or composers. They don't care who composed
the song that they are playing or why they wrote it. Many don't ever touch a
musical instrument after their drum corps days are over and you know what?
That's ok. Hopefully they took something away from their marching days that
will stay with them for the rest of their lives. Mostly they take
friendships and a million memories that no one can ever take from them.
Drum corps opened me up to Jazz after listening to BD's and so many other
corps play Chuck Mangiones music. Back in the 70's I would bet that at least
75% of an audience at a Mangione concert were drum corps people.
I guess we look for different things in drum corps which is ok. You go
looking to learn or be challenged, I go to be entertained. A lot of people
who go anwywhere be it a movie, a play, a sports even or whatever are
looking purely to be entertained and to escape the pressures of work and
homelife. There is nothing wrong with learning in the process but that is
not what most people are looking to do. It's escapism. The average fan
doesn't want to go to a show to learn something. Sometimes it happens as it
did with you and that's great but the activity shouldn't be set up with that
as a goal.
>
>
> >The rifles went up
> >to the same height together and came down together as if they were
attached
> >to a string.
>
> have you truly watched some of the colorguards of today? ARe you
SERIOUSLY
> going to tell me that your statement couldnt apply to those of today?
Yes I am saying that in most cases it doesn't apply.
>The guards of today, and dont get me wrong.. I am a horn guy.. not a color
guard
> person ...,are AMAZING. Some of the work they do astounds me...
I saw a guard last summer go without any equipment in their hands for 20-30
seconds.
But yes, the talents of todays color guards are amazing but IMO they are
not used to their full potential. They spend way to march time doing dance
moves. When flags go up in the air they usually don't go up at the same
time, they go in sequence. I don't know if anyone uses what I would call
rifles anymore. I have seen some corps use sticks that are shaped like
rifles and also use a vast assortment of props such as hoola hoops and
chairs. What do they have to do with drum corps?
> I never NEVER
> saw in an old tape ANY guard back in the 'day' toss a sabre and catch it
BEHIND
> their back... or for that matter.. how many corps could actually say that
> ALMOST ALL their members could use ALL the aparatus (flags, rifles and
sabres)
> with as much proficiency as today... most back then had them seperated so
you
> only had to be good at one maybe two!
You never saw the right tapes. Guard were doing that back then trust me.
Anyone that marched in a corps that was doing things like that please feel
free to chime in and identify yourselves. Guards back then weren't asked to
use all types of equipment. Had they been I'm sure they would have done
themselves proud.
>
> > DEATH TO THE TYRANTS!! (
>
> Hey.. i am not saying that the people running drum corps are 'correct' in
all
> aspects. I think their inability to be totally forthcoming with
attendance
> figures appalling... I truly think their lack of a functional business
attitude
> disgusting... but the people in charge of DCI and then the people in
charge of
> the actual corps (staffs, etc) are two different animals, even if they
overlap
> in areas... in one area they are concerned with the survival of their own
corps
> and putting an entertaining product on the field.. then on the other hand
they
> have to worry about the future survivial of the activity....
I agree with your thinking here. It seems that someone somewhere is not
seeing what is going on. I think that DCI is concerned with DCI and let
everyone fend for themselves and why not? All corps strive to be "DCI"
corps. They want the tours, they want the guaranteed money, they want to be
on tv, they want the rings. Everything is geared toward DCI. They have a
monopoly on junior drum corps. It used to mean something to be World Open
Champion, US Open Champion and CYO Nationals Champion just to name a few. I
could keep naming them but you get the idea. The only thing that means
anything now is who is on top at the end of the year. Don't get me wrong, I
like the idea of having a season champion but I miss the hype and excitment
that used to surround all those other shows that used to mean something.
>
> A lot of what keeps people away from the stands and kids away from the
corps is
> not necessarily what it might appear to be. This is a whole new world with
the
> attention span of an gnat. Kids today dont have the work ethic of days
gone by
> (and by that I dont EVEN MEAN to insinuate ANY of the kids IN corps.. I
am
> referring to those who dont want to put the effort out to BE in the corps
cause
> its simply 'too hard')... and people are working MUCH HARDER and LONGER
these
> days and CANT take off like you had the ability back when to see a show...
> people work on weekends more to make ends meet... A lot has to do with the
> unfortunate aspects of 'the real world' and not so much what corps 'isnt
giving
> them'.. as it is what life is TAKING from them....
I agree with that also. I also think a lot of what is keeping kids from
corps is money. It costs so much to march in corps these days. Many kids
that have the desire and work ethic just don't have the funds it takes to
fly to camp every month and to pay the cost of touring. I have four kids
within four years of each other. If they all wanted to march in a corps at
the same time I coudn't afford it. We didn't have to try out back in the
"day" as you put it. We were lucky to get enough kids just to reach 128
kids. I'm not sure that anyone I marched with my first year in Defenders had
prior musical experience before joining drum corps other than piano lessons.
With few corps to choose from and the way that kids march in two or three of
the top twelve during their career explains why todays corps seem musically
superior to the old corps. Back then great horn players were spread out
among many corps whereas today corps take the best of the best that come to
them. We had to take what we got and make players out of them. (oh look
there's that teaching experience thing you were talking about) There are
also less corps for kids to go to because money or lack oif it has been the
reason that a lot of good corps are no longer with us.
>
> a bit long.. but I feel I made some vaild points sir. :)
>
> jason
>
Jason, you did make some good points. I enjoy going back and forth with you.
You have some good ideas and I respect them. We are just looking to get
different things out of drum corps. Call me old or stuck in the day if you
want but I am happy putting on my tapes from the 69 World Open and listening
to 27th, Troopers, Des Plaines Vanguard, St Rita's and so on. I'll put on my
74 CMCC Warriors and crank it up for "Shaft". Those tapes bring back a lot
of great memories for me plus I love what I hear. More musical than today's
corps or not. In ten years you will probably be saying the same things.
You'll be telling people to shove the 2012 (insert corps here), I'll take my
99 SCV!
Stefanie Kressaty
"Ron Allard" <R...@Diceman.com> wrote in message
news:u6ri1usj62cbnuv1b...@4ax.com...
> (This was in the 1976 Skyliner Yearbook...)
>
> " Q. You mentioned earlier the fascination you had for the first single
valve
> horn corps that you ever saw. How do you feel about the new double piston
valve
> bugles? Do you think DCA will take this path in the future?
>
> A. Well, if you remember the last meeting we had on it, the feeling was
the hell
> with the two-valve horn, let's go to three but keep it in the key of G. I
was
> really amazed because I introduced the idea to DCA. What we're using now
is a
> two-valve G trumpet, with the rotary. The horn ceased to be a bugle when
we
> stopped using Army Regulation bugles and added a valve.
> So now they're G trumpets. DCA said in effect, "Why be hypocritical, let's
go to
> the three but keep it in G because we still want that drum corps sound; we
don't
> want that Bb band sound." Personally, I don't care if we went for six
valves, as
> long as it's in G we still have the same sound but with more versatility.
We
> would still have drum and bugle corps! "
>
> He had no problem with 3 valves - but he *did* have a problem with Bbs...
Ron,
You are the best!! That was so enlightening!! Gee, I guess those of us who
think so aren't really wrong that a G horn sounds different than a Bb horn..
hmmmm
Or at least there are folks who hold respect of others that agree with us..
Thanks a million.. that goes into my "learn something new every day" file.
Stef
JJAYBOYD
I respect you and truly appreciate as you say 'going back and forth' cause we
can agree to disagree and not delve into name calling (you old timer ya.. lol).
I think it comes down to something I learned being on the radio in NYC last
year.
I was the sidekick on an overnight radio show on WOR am. The host is Joey
Reynolds, a man who is one of a very few DJs in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
(I took HIM on MY birthday to see BLAST! and he was MEZMIRIZED by the way..
and I am taking him to a drum corps show this summer as well). We would have
all kinds of people in studio, but the ones that I loved most were the
spiritual ones who made me think.
Two very VERY cutting edge rabbis came in one night talking about how religion
should be used as a bridge of understanding.. not a barrier of fear. (As many
can tell from my previous posts, I dont think I truly grasped the concept of
that till recently.)
But one point that is SO poignant here is that they had said why so many people
fight wether its about relgion, cars, CORPS.. you name it. It all comes down
to IDEAS vs. BELIEFS.
Everyone pretty much bases what they think they know on BELIEFS. .... I believe
in this.. or I believe in that.... and when someone BELIEVES something.. its
VERY hard, ,nay IMPOSSIBLE to change that. You delve into a comfort zone, and
as anyone knows, when you are in a comfort zone it takes a team of wild horses
to drag you out... HOWEVER.. an IDEA.. thats something that can be shared..
molded... created by yourself or with the input of others.... when you base
your 'being' on IDEAS.. and allow for flexibility? You dont corner yourself in
and allow that fear to dissapate... hence letting yourself LISTEN to OTHER
ideas and possibly coming up with a NEW IDEA formed of yours and theirs....
What I have stated about 'older corps'... is my IDEAS.. I may be wrong... and
if YOUR idea is that the corps of 'yesteryear' are far superior.. than god
bless ya... maybe MAYBE if some of the show designers would INCORPORATE some
of the OLD IDEAS into the NEW shows...some kind of HYBRID would emerge.... But
if you BELIEVE that the new shows are far superior or vice versa.. your dander
gets up.. your defenses rise.. and what happens? NOTHING. And thats bad for
ALL involved. no?
just an IDEA folks..
a new, kinder, gentler troll,
Jason Plawner
Catherine
news:3C196889...@hvc.rr.com...
>>The resolution allowing two vertical pistons was passed prior to the 1976
season, with corps being allowed to upgrade one choir (sop, mid-voice, bari)
per season starting in 1977. Contra's could be added at any time. This was a
necessity as Olds had informed the activity they would no longer make bugles
and were the last remaining company in the bugle business.
>>The brass caucus voted to allow 3 valve horns in a near unanimous vote,
with the logic that if we were going to switch why not go to three. The vote
was 40+ to 2 or 3. So we did indeed desire three. The directors voted to
only allow two valves as they feared difficulties with musician unions, who
still had clout in those days, and paying royalties to composers of music
performed by corps. The logic in that royalty argument was never clear to me
and corps now acquire the rights to the music they perform..
>>Brass staff members have fought every inch of the way for better
instruments throughout the history of the drum corps. The addition of a
valve, allowing the valve to move during the performance, the use of the
slide, the addition of a rotor, allowing the rotor to be pitched in F#,
allowing the valve to be pitched in F, legalization of the contrabass, two
valves, three valves, and multikey brass were all resisted by the various
powers of the day.
>>The rules simply permitted a corps to only one vertical piston for many
years, so a rotor was the best possible configuration, despite the constant
repair needed to keep it operational. There were horns with two horizontal
valves, but they were a dud.
>>Remember valveless bugles were once thought more than sufficient for
corps. We now have three valves for the same reason we went to two, a lack
of companies willing to manufacture horns. Drum corps feared having one
company making bugles and the difficulties a monopoly would bring. They were
also dissatisfied with the quality of the instruments being made in the late
1980's. Remember that Star maintained their original 2 valve Kings, rather
than switch to three. This was due to the quality of those instruments,
which they felt were unequalled, rather than lack of resources.
Drum corps has moved from the military valveless bugle in a series of small
progressions, without which the activity would have died. Surely audiences
would have tired hearing only soprano bugles playing only open tones long
before my birth.
************************************************
Jeff --
The "evolution" in bugles IS a fascinating analysis of good intentions -
which as the cliche goes, often paves the road to hell. For years, I have
no doubt that market factors and the desire on the part of musicians for
better intonation and getting a complete scale in a couple of octaves - at
the very least - were major factors in the "evolution" of the bugle to what
we have now.
What I am positing is that we now re-analyze that pathway to see what has
been the effect upon the activity - particularly now that the line in the
sand that some of us wish to draw with regard to single key G bugle
hornlines - which Hy Dreitzer, of all people, saw as imperative years ago -
is in serious danger. Some of us believe crossing that line will make no
difference to drum corps. Others of us believe it sounds the final death
knell to the separate and continuous tradition of this activity. I am
personally strong on the latter theory.
Further, history is teaching us of the effects of expensive pits and
expensive instrumentation and its effects upon our activity at large. I
e-mailed Jack Kanstul some time ago about the relative costs of the
Ultratone valve-rotor models some time ago. It is my opinion that a DURABLE
valve-rotor (or two-valve) bugle, pitched in G, and in similar configuration
(excepting contrabass bugles) along the lines of the Ultratone lines is
sufficient for both reasons of playability - for BOTH music majors and
non-band musicians, for the many.
I well admit that I do not know enough about costs, tooling, materials and
such. But in my own abstract theory, anyway - particularly given the rise
and fall of instrument companies over the years - even just ONE company like
Conn, Olds Benge or Kanstul that would produce a relatively inexpensive
instrument for a flourishing drum corps activity for the MANY, who are
interested in fraternity, marching performance and LOUD G bugle hornlines is
a theory worth positing. Remove the expensive pit instrumentation, and
create local regional contests to reduce the costs of touring.
In our analysis of the results of the up-until-now evolution of this
activity, we see clearly that reducing the monetary distinctions and
requirements to a more reasonable level may well have more of a positive
impact in preserving this activity than most other "efforts".
In this way, we maintain all the opportunities and values of traditional
drum and bugle corps. Those who want to go with more expensive and
competitive band instrumentation are more than welcome to do so - there are
already plenty of bands out there.
****************************************************
>>Every change was resisted for reasons of tradition, which is a valid
viewpoint.
****************************************************
I was reading some of my older posts on this subject. Celebrating and
blindly following tradition SOLELY because it is a tradition is NOT
something I believe in. Traditions generally come about because of certain
meritorious arguments. As long as those arguments remain relatively
meritorious compared to other considerations, I am all for tradition - but
never for blindly following such simply because it has historically been the
case.
The reason for following tradition is largely to help prevent throwing the
baby out with the bathwater - as well as to share in and become a part of
the customs and honors of the past. I will agree that the present and the
future will often bring challenges and additional considerations that ought
to be weighed upon the merits.
****************************************************
>>Remember your beloved valve rotor french horn was a result of "evolution."
When drum corps started there were no valves, no rotors, and no french
horns. Also changes were made to change the rotor from F to F# and valve
from D to F.
****************************************************
See above comment. Adding the french horn voice was, IMO, a wonderful
thing. Keeping it simply for the sake of blindly following tradition is
silly. But preserving that voice - precious and priceless. And in 31
years, I'm still playing a valve-rotor french horn - no need for evolution
here IMO.
****************************************************
>>Dan was outstanding. Slide trombones, no comment. :-)
****************************************************
Nothing wrong with sliding t-bones in my book <tee>...
When he blew into that horn, and that finely maintained slide responded from
breath alone...
I WANT one!!!
-- Catherine
Catherine
> Jeff Mitchell said:
>
> >
> >Brass staff members have fought every inch of the way for better
> >instruments throughout the history of the drum corps. The addition of a
> >valve, allowing the valve to move during the performance, the use of the
> >slide, the addition of a rotor, allowing the rotor to be pitched in F#,
> >allowing the valve to be pitched in F, legalization of the contrabass,
> >two valves, three valves, and multikey brass were all resisted by the
> >various powers of the day.
>
and
> better equipment all the time...
>
> Once they could play (almost) the entire chromatic scale, it should have
been
> enough, IMO - and really good arrangers got by these "limitations" very
> creatively anyway (Hy Dreitzer, Joe Genero, Corky Fabrizio, Mike Duffy,
Ken
> Norman, et al)...
> Any further enhancements only added to the overall cost, and didn't really
> increase "the experience" or the reason d'etre...
> (IMO, the vast majority of the Drum Corps Experience happens off the
field...)
BINGO!!!! Agreed.
> I mean, who really cares if a drum corps brass line is perfectly in tune,
or has
> the timbre expected of a concert orchestra? They're (or use to be, anyway)
> playing to "Joe Six-Pack" and his family, not Siskel & Ebert - the kind of
> people who don't mind sitting outside in a football stadium to hear music
in the
> first place...
> It's kind of like community softball or Little League. They don't *have*
to be
> able to compete on even terms with MLB in order to have fun...
> (Nationwide, a lot more people go to Little League and/or soccer games
than go
> to MLB games - or drum corps shows these days. And they don't go for the
> professionalism...)
But that's what makes the achievement of great playing on POS horns even
MORE of any achievement. And amazingly... I was discussing this idea of
intonation with another 60s-70s corps person... Amazing how we all used to
be able to tune ourselves by ourselves, without strobes - and many of us did
a demmed fine job of it too.
I highly recommend the recording of the 1966 VKs in that indoor Joaquin
Caballeros show. Personally, I believe even bandos might well get some
rocks off of that one!
> As one who watched it happen, it seems to me that once arrangers and
instructors
> started getting more "edumacated" and started living off their drum corps
> salaries instead of basically volunteering and holding down "real jobs" on
the
> outside, they just weren't satisfied with the community softball world
anymore.
> This attitude took the heart of it, IMO. It changed drum corps from a
hobby to a
> vocation...
Well, when you're a hammer expert, everything starts looking like a nail...
> BTW, am I the only one who sees the irony in the "Bb Revolution" happening
while
> Visual still counts more than the music?
Hey, some people can't let Michael Cesario be the only god of all time...
-- Catherine
P.S. -- When I wrote my post, I specifically remembered the Hy Dreitzer
interview and his statement about 3-valves. And perhaps, with regard to
sopranos, I really don't care either.
But there is NO comparison IMO with pelvic thrusting with a 3-valve and
pelvic thrusting with a valve-rotor BIG horn... Add to that comparing
snapping a long BU-10 Untratone french horn (of substance) with a stubbie
that the solders keep breaking on...
It's an outdoor, military, marching activity with BALLZ... If you don't
like it, there are plenty of brass bands out there who actually SPECIFY the
preferred key(s) of horns... It's not a foreign concept for people who are
attempting to PRESERVE the special nature of their activity!
-- Catherine
>
> Ok, I'll stop now...
> Heh...
>
>
> --
> Ron in Vegas
> mailto:ron.a...@att.net
>
> "Because there was always something about the Skyliners...
> and that music..."
> - Donnie Solinger
>
> Senior Corps History site:
> http://www.SrCorps.com
>
Mike
"Catherine Burr" <cather...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:200112131759...@web13805.mail.yahoo.com...
> On 13 Dec 2001 12:58:34 GMT, jjay...@aol.com
> (JJAYBOYD) wrote:
>
> So then how do we reconcile the apparent inconsistency
> between what I believe you are saying - that bands and
> corps ARE different - and, say, Mike Davis' assertions
> that musicality in corps and bands are the same (or OK
> if they are the same thing), marching technique and
> drills in corps and bands are the same (or OK if they
> are the same thing), etc. (Do correct me if I
> misstate your assertions, Mike, as I know you will
> >(;^)< ).
>
Since you invited me in.... :-)
What I believe is that today there are indeed no competitive bands the level
of, say, the SCV or BD.
Why?
1) Because the amount of focused rehearsal available to HS bands is far less
than that of a corps (nor would it be remotely desirable..IMO).
2) Because the average age and playing experience of a HS band is lower than
corps at that level (e.g. the Cadets being something over 19).
3) Because there are always some kids in any HS band who are not there to BE
in the MB, but are in it for extraneous reasons, which will take away from
their performance level.
What if the SCV, Cadets, BD....added WW. Then, IMO, there would indeed be a
MB the level of the SCV, Cadets, or BD.
> IMO, Mr. Peterson's point is the more correct point.
> Any existing differences between corps and bands are
> still here due to the historical process, and are
> rapidly diminishing in scope - if nothing is done to
> draw the lines in the sand.
>
Sounds fine to me, if that is the way they want to go. If not....that's OK
too.
>
> The emphasis on musical technique and achievement in
> bands vs. the fraternal building of group honor,
> tradition, communication and connections to the
> community and our culture (as discussed in yesterday's
> "What is drum corps?" thread), and the growth and
> development of each and every marching member as a
> well-rounded musician AND human being, one of the
> many.
>
IMO there is not a thing in the above that precludes any instrumentation
options, be it WW, electronics, and/or Bb/F key horns..
>
> Now, look at old videos - like my 1967 tapes wherein
> the front stands are crammed, and the side AND back
> stands are full. Imagine the ENTIRE STADIUM acting
> and interacting with EACH CORPS
I too have some old videos, from 71 and 72. Some performances are from the
great 71 World Open, a show some people call the best ever. There's nothing
remotely close to what you describe, and that even includes the crowd
response to the 27th Lancers at that WO show...and Anaheim....Blue Rock....
>
> No, Jason - this DOESN'T happen now - does it? I'm
> SORRY that it doesn't - but I am NOT going to lie
> about it - and I have videotapes that PROVE that it's
> NOT the enhancement of my olde phart memory!!!
Well, I have tapes that show the opposite, taped at a variety of shows.
Including those above plus Garfield
(72)...Brassmen....Argonne...SCV.....BS.....
>
> Sure, I can understand the argument that "things have
> changed". But the simple truth is that drum corps
> USED to be BELOVED!!!
Only by a relatively few. It's always been a niche activity.
>
> It is NOT because we miss OUR days, Jason - but
> because we feel the MERITS of what we had - not ALL
> the merits, but nearly all the ones with MEANING and
> not merely window dressing - are superior. And I, for
> one, feel that you AND this activity at large are the
> ones losing out... as well as all those who may not
> ever get to experience again what we did.
>
IMO the kids today are having a great time, not less of a great time than I
had. This idea that today is somehow less than the past is, IMO, silly.
>
> On the other hand, pre-DCI drum corps was for the
> community, the masses, for ALL kids, as a connection
> to and celebration of our common cultural history, of
> flag and country and veterans. No one gave a $hit as
> to whether or not it was a "sport" or an "art".
>
I remember lots of kids looking at us in Garfield Cadet unis in parades and
demonstrating contempt for our military style and appearance. Like it or
not, DC was and is a niche activity and not something the general public
ever understood or cared for. A great activity, of course, but not the
all-encompassing one you are painting here. None of my non-corps friends, in
and out of band, ever understood WHY I marched as I did.
Mike, as usual the contrarian
Catherine
news:10083089...@mars.njcc.com...
>
> I remember lots of kids looking at us in Garfield Cadet unis in parades
and
> demonstrating contempt for our military style and appearance. Like it or
> not, DC was and is a niche activity and not something the general public
> ever understood or cared for. A great activity, of course, but not the
> all-encompassing one you are painting here. None of my non-corps friends,
in
> and out of band, ever understood WHY I marched as I did.
>
> Mike, as usual the contrarian
Not at all, Mike - I think you and I understand each other far more than our
public pronouncements indicate, simply because we have similar intentions
when speaking to a public audience...
DC in my experience WAS all-encompassing to our NICHE groups. But I submit
that a 60s drum corps had a greater connection to the community than, say,
the Blue Devils. When was the last time that the Blue Devils - with their
full staff along - opened a shopping center, took sweepstakes at the Blythe
First Annual Cantaloupe Festival, or played patriotic songs at the Veterans
Memorial?
And even though we Crusaders, VKs and Diplomats were WAY laid-back
hippie-type corps, those protesters running through our ranks at the 1970
Portland Flower Festival certainly saw us as more Kent State troops than
people who would party and share with them after the parade...
Why do I like to sing traditional religious songs and Broadway show songs,
but not particularly listen to such things? And when it comes to drum corps
(and rock n' roll), it is the connection, the punch, the power, the
execution... That's not to say that I don't recognize Bach as more
"musically excellent"...
The "all-encompassing" nature of corps in which I believe relates to a
certain attitude of soul - that REAL drum corps people have, whether or not
they've ever marched in a corp. To me, it's the real deal - and real
difference.
-- Catherine
Mike
>
> DC in my experience WAS all-encompassing to our NICHE groups.
OK. I'll go with you on that one.
> But I submit
> that a 60s drum corps had a greater connection to the community than, say,
> the Blue Devils. When was the last time that the Blue Devils - with their
> full staff along - opened a shopping center, took sweepstakes at the
Blythe
> First Annual Cantaloupe Festival, or played patriotic songs at the
Veterans
> Memorial?
>
Well, the town of Garfield did not like us at all.Why? Very few of us
actually came from the town, waaay back in 70. Not many from outside the
area, but very few from the town. Most of the class A corps were made up of
some percentage of folks from outside the town they came from.
I'll never take away from what I experienced, but at the same time I'll
never dismiss as anything less the experience today's members receive
either.
Take care,
Mke
Mike
>rip Catherine's post apart line by line. Let me just
>say this....<
>
>Translation: No substantive counterarguments.
>
Wow, thats not what I got from that, sounded like he needs time to figure out
exactly what pea pod the truth might be under THIS time....
The Other Mike...................
I purchase a ticket and sit in the stands to support the effort of ALL the
kids.
I choose not to applaude some corps to express my displeasure with design teams
that can't see the sun from that position.
Mike
>
>Diagnosing people's mental states from their personal
>opinions which conflicts with your personal opinions,
>tsk, tsk. Gee, Mr. Nipper... Thank you for detailing
>so VERY clearly just WHY - and how - EVERYONE came to
>such conclusions.
>
>I suppose that such mischaracterizations and personal
>attacks (on RAMD *&* in real life) are the results of
>lifetime achievements of excellence and the evolution
>of our flourishing drum corps activity.
>
Wow, was he not googling and reading Waynes letter of recomendation ?
I thought that was out in the open. Hell many people suffer through mental
problems, bigg difference is SOME of us go through therapy...............
Mike
>of drum corps has made of you - and the fine, fun,
>professional EVERYONE of which you are such a shining
>example.
Wow, again. Do you consider YOURSELF a shining example of drum corps in
gereral, or just YOUR idea of what drum corps people are supposed to be like ?
>For if *I*, as a "delusional cow", can stand up and
>speak my opinion despite all the BS, then more and
>more will realize that they too can say THE EMPEROR
>HAS NO CLOTHES... and the bullies and bull$hitter$
>have NO power other than what decent people grant to
>them - and which has been taken by the parasites.
Bull in a china shop. ANYONE can stand up and speak their opinion. Those with
merit will be understood, those who spew BS will only fool the innocent. What
a shame.
Gary Peterson
> Gary...
>
> I respect you and truly appreciate as you say 'going back and forth' cause
we
> can agree to disagree and not delve into name calling (you old timer ya..
lol).
<snip>
> What I have stated about 'older corps'... is my IDEAS.. I may be wrong...
and
> if YOUR idea is that the corps of 'yesteryear' are far superior.. than god
> bless ya...
Never said that they were superior. Just more entertaining and exciting. As
a matter of fact, I think the horn players today are extraordinary. Not
trying to slight the drummers but as a horn person I can only tell if a drum
line is either real good or real bad. There isn't much middle ground for me
there.
maybe MAYBE if some of the show designers would INCORPORATE some
> of the OLD IDEAS into the NEW shows...some kind of HYBRID would emerge....
But
> if you BELIEVE that the new shows are far superior or vice versa.. your
dander
> gets up.. your defenses rise.. and what happens? NOTHING. And thats bad
for
> ALL involved. no?
I remember in the late 70's (79 I think?) SCV (again my memory is cloudy)
came out with a non-symetrical drill which was different from what everyone
else was doing (but what everyone does now) and got hammered for it. It
seems we both agree that we would like to see some changes. What kind, no
one will ever agree. Will we see any? Only time will tell.
Jason,I like you, appreciate the lively debate without name calling.
Thanks!
MSRogala
>not, DC was and is a niche activity and not something the general public
>ever understood or cared for. A great activity, of course, but not the
>all-encompassing one you are painting here. None of my non-corps friends, in
>and out of band, ever understood WHY I marched as I did.
>
>Mike, as usual the contrarian
>
>
love this activity tend to forget this fact
JJAYBOYD
information from this and 'assimilate' it into my thought process....
I am an information MAGNET on corps.. I tended to get all bent out of shape
when I first got on here due to what I perceived as some people getting on a
soap box and telling ME what to think, and if I didnt comply I was some kind
of mental midget!
I have really been interested in this whole string about Bb horns vs. G
bugles... I am learning a lot... its only making me love the activity more
actually.
I really do love corps...and the great thing about all the 'whoopla' thats
going on? If things DO change in ANY direction? There is NOTHING written in
stone that says it couldn't GO BACK in another direction at another point in
time!
Only things certain are death, taxes and a tie at championships! :)
As my friend Ed Eberling said at Finals last year... they should hold the
finals in June, cause thats when Fathers Day is, and tradition has shown that
that is when most unwanted ties are given!
GOD I love that quote.. and wish I had thought of it myself!
LOL
Jason Plawner
Mike
> Occasionally when our horn
>instructor (Corky Genrich, another Corky) lets me get away with it,
>I'll add in the boo-WAAAAs I played in 1974 VK
Can it be heard over all the boo-HOOOOOS ?
Div23fan
>monopoly on junior drum corps. It used to mean something to be World Open
>Champion, US Open Champion and CYO Nationals Champion just to name a few. I
>could keep naming them but you get the idea. The only thing that means
>anything now is who is on top at the end of the year. Don't get me wrong, I
>like the idea of having a season champion but I miss the hype and excitment
>that used to surround all those other shows that used to mean something.
Thank you for pointing this out. I thought I was the only one who noticed how
destructive the "only one show counts" mentality has been since it took hold
around 1975.
Tom Brace
Originally bugles, trumpets and other such horns were made of ceramic or
bone. BRING BACK THE SACKBUT! The horn you play has little to do with the
drum corps experience for the member. In fact, it had little to do with my
experience as a fan for the last two years.
I've played a Dynasty Mello in G and in F. I'm not a fan of the valves on
either horn. But, with enough tweaking and constant care, they are a good
and very durable instrument in either key. I own a Dynasty Mello in G. Not
because I made a choice...it's because my son plays in a corps that marches
G horns. He wanted it for Christmas and we bought it together. I get to
play a bit in the winter.
Tom Brace
"Stefanie Kressaty" <scri...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:rxxR7.3883$5K4.4...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> "Mike D." <mda...@ets.org> wrote in message
> news:52b29b90.01121...@posting.google.com...
>
> Since the 'traditional' sources of members have
> > disappeared, you have to go find another. Happens to be bands, so it
> > behooves the activity to make it as inviting as possible...IMO.
> >
>
> Mike,
>
> Not being one to start a fight ;) I'm curious..
>
> Way back in the dark ages, when you first picked up an instrument, in your
> whole lifetime.. what was it?
>
> When you moved on to the next instrument.. what was it?
>
> When you made the transition from one to the other (whether it was keys or
> instruments entirely), was it REALLY a deterrent to you to have to learn
the
> new thing?
>
> Stef
>
>
Catherine Burr
news:<20011214013715...@mb-fi.aol.com>...
>ANYONE can stand up and speak their opinion. Those
with merit will be understood, those who spew BS will
only fool the innocent. What a shame.
>
> The Other Mike...................
Well... if I can infer from this that you are implying
that *I* am the one spewing BS... and even if I should
grant such a hypothesis...
All that means is that the EEBBUB and EVERYONE have
competition, doesn't it?
Amazing how well you understand and articulate such a
methodology, Mike. And that's why, unfortunately, the
age of innocence MUST be over in order for drum corps
to survive.
We can no longer in good conscience say we don't care
about politics and don't get involved or take sides;
for to do so is to say one doesn't care about the
survival of this activity and whatever it is that is
special about it.
And so, we must each identify what it is that is
precious to us about drum corps, and what
organizational changes and inviolable principles are
necessary to maintain, and DRAW THOSE LINES IN THE
SAND!
And then... REBUILD!!!
-- Catherine
=====
Catherine Burr
cather...@yahoo.com
Personal Webpage:
http://www.geocities.com/catherineburr/
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Catherine Burr
news:<20011214020409...@mb-dh.aol.com>...
forget this fact.<
In the old days, those that I marched with NEVER
forgot this. The bands were constantly saying how
drum corps sucked, just as now the buh-bye-corpspeople
tell us old drum corps sucked.
That's why whenever EVERYONE speaks of "expanding the
fan base" and marketing this activity to
non-corpspeople, that's a pretty sure sign that they
DON'T HAVE A CLUE that we ARE "merely" a niche
activity - always were, always will be...
Of course, then there are the "clever" people who
realized that, niche activity or not, drum corps is
quite helpful in marketing horns and drums to bands,
and certain corps instructors with certain resume
credits in "clinics" for $100 or more a pop...
And then, how nice to have just a few supercorps left
- and Blast! - that can tour the country and get $75 a
ticket from the remaining, though dwindling, niche.
Well, at least some people will have their retirement
accounts all set to "keep them in the lifestyle to
which they've become accustomed"...
And then there are those 3 or 5 nights per week bingo
games that support all those drum corps out there -
even the ones who haven't fielded a drum corps in over
20 years.
If you want to speak to violations of HONOR and
TRADITION, TOMike, I'd hate to see you waste so much
time and effort on poor, delusional, mentally unstable
me. Why don't you take your obviously so much finer
honor and find someone or something far more
threatening...
Oh, I see - that IS what you are GENUINELY doing - no
matter what you write. But then, I'm just so full of
myself thinking this is ALL about little ol' me...
Well, now, Mike - let's see now given the
manipulations on the other side what we as a
collective drum corps family create out of all this,
shall we?
-- Catherine
=====
Catherine Burr
cather...@yahoo.com
Personal Webpage:
http://www.geocities.com/catherineburr/
__________________________________________________
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Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
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