Bringing Back French Horns
Catherine
lega...@aol.com (LEG at cba) wrote:
> At Skyliners Alumni we're trying to use 'em. But I can personally
> testify to the fact that some of those mid-60's frenchie parts are in
> the mellophone range. If you don't believe me, stop in at a
> rehearsal and bring your french horn (or at least your frenchie
> mouthpiece).
Half the reason french horns went by the wayside was because of bando
types who didn't know how to write for them, didn't know how to teach
them, and running drills (with a small mouthpiece) by members who never
learned to march with a book on their head and shock absorbing hips.
If the equipment was there and prospective french horn players knew
that drill writers would fit the drill to the music - and attempt not
to compromise the needs of either the drill or the music... We just
met a second generation drum corps daughter who plays french horn and
lives locally.
It's a difficult instrument. But it is mellifluous, and can add much
if people know how to use and feature it. The same can be said of
mellos, and an entire drum & bugle corps horn line.
Let's have arrangements with multiple parts in all sections. Corps
used to have 6 each frenchies and 6 each mellos - such numbers used to
be determined by having a complete squad of three on each side of the
field as opposed to a "balance" obtained merely by numbers and the
existence of multi-key instruments - instead of nurturing the hornline
to breathe and play and work and interpret together - balance by
musicians and knowledgeable corps members as opposed to filling out
someone's "plan" that is more highly valued than people.
The issue is with those who judge and write for us as though we were
something that we're not - people who would prefer that we were
something other than partial contributors to those historic virtues
that build interest in corps and now are continuing to REBUILD the
activity at large.
More of us need to have the confidence in who and what we are to speak
up. Let those who think their values and recommendations are superior
explain how their values will preserve the unique integrity and love of
this activity.
-- Catherine
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Catherine
horns - their names are Norman and Dreiser.
So here's a challenge to all you bando arrangers out there... Stop
writing us out of drum & bugle corps. Kenton and Miles didn't seem to
have trouble writing for french horns and mellos, as well as the two
listed above, and Gregg, Jim Ott and other such silly people who
thought that the challenges offered by the horn were far outweighed by
the benefits.
What's your problem?
Chuck Naffier
>
> In article <20001101211353...@ng-mk1.aol.com>,
> lega...@aol.com (LEG at cba) wrote:
> > At Skyliners Alumni we're trying to use 'em. But I can personally
> > testify to the fact that some of those mid-60's frenchie parts are in
> > the mellophone range. If you don't believe me, stop in at a
> > rehearsal and bring your french horn (or at least your frenchie
> > mouthpiece).
>
> Half the reason french horns went by the wayside was because of bando
> types who didn't know how to write for them,
*snip*
Please. . .
Chuck Naffier
Terri Dittrich
Chuck Naffier
Catherine,
Stan Kenton and Miles Davis' worst nightmares were french horns. There
are few things less pleasing to listen to than out-of-tune overblowing
that Kenton had during the "Mellophonium" years in the early '60's.
Kenton was never very into "clean" and "tight" anyway, but those sounds
were the worst in his illustrious career.
At least Gil Evans used "real" french horns for things like "Sketches of
Spain" and the other orchestral arrangements for Miles.
If bugle manufacturers could ever make an instrument that was actually
relatively in tune (even with itself) I would not hesitate to write for
it. It is a nice color, and certainly one that is missing from the
current palate. But. . . if the choice is writing for today's marching
french horn or writing for mellophones that have a chance to be heard
(and in tune), that's kind of a no-brainer. . .
As an aside, it is not the drill that is the concern when putting french
horns on the field. It is (in junior corps) the sheer amount of time
with that tiny mouthpiece on a very small portion of the lip -- with
possibly the sharpest mouthpiece rims ever invented. No french horn
player who has a gig in the real world is going to put that thing on
his/her chops 8 hours a day -- standing still OR moving.
I think that what you are really hearing is a lack not only of french
horns, but any variety in the upper tenor voice as well as the middle
voices. French horns, in and of themselves, are not the answer.
Combine that with a mellophonium voice (not today's trumpets with big
bells), an alto horn, and flugelhorns, and you have a much wider variety
of colors. This doesn't even begin to address the lack of color in a 20
person baritone line. With the tight wrapped horns currently being
sold, there is little chance of getting the darker sound that a bugle of
15 years ago could have made -- and virtually no chance of the blend of
the older lines of the mid to early 80's.
We now, for all practical purposes, have a soprano bugle, a big soprano
bugle (mellophone), a baritone, and a bass voice.
Done rambling --
Chuck Naffier
Terri Dittrich
"Terri Dittrich" <terri...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Nv5M5.11552$Pw6.7...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
I meant to say something when I posted......
The Mister was with the Knights when everyone was dumping the french horns.
That was a very depressing time for me. I'd never played anything else so I
felt sort of like an orphan.
When I came to Kilties last year, I was so glad to SEE french horns again.
I think it's fun when kids come up to you after shows and want to get a look
at this thing. I'm glad to oblige. :-)
-Terri
Jeff Mitchell
Chuck Naffier wrote:
Actually one must understand the role of the french horn prior to the
adoption of the G-F bugle in 1968 and then, the demise of it can be more
clearly understood. With a G-D bugle it was impossible to find a voice to
play melodies in the range of G (2nd line) to G (one octave higher), as the
soprano did not have access to the Ab and A. The french horn with it's closer
partials was ideal to bridge the gap and make more music available to
arrangers. Prior to the develop of the french horn, circa 1949, corps were
very limited with simple one valve bugles. The french horn was a major
advance in the bugle choir.
The mellophone was employed in the early 60's, but until the F valve was
legalized, it was no more useful in finding those missing notes than the
soprano. Once we went to the G-F horns, the French Horn did a fade from the
bugle choir. The mellophone was easier to control and reduce the tick factor.
Also the flugel bugle made inroads as an alternate middle voice as well. So
the choices abounded for arrangers for the alto voice. Once drills began to
fly in the 80's, it was difficult to control the thinner mouthpiece rim and
it faded from the scene. The last significant use of the french horn was in
the 1994 Glassmen Moody Blues show.
The mellophone can be fitted with a french horn mouthpiece and that is
frequently employed in marching bands. To agree with Chuck's "Please"
comment, several marching bands do use marching and concert french horns, so
the notion that it was hard to write for seems implausible.
Jeff
Catherine
JEFFMI...@prodigy.net wrote:
> ...
> Actually one must understand the role of the french horn prior to the
> adoption of the G-F bugle in 1968 and then, the demise of it can be
> more clearly understood. With a G-D bugle it was impossible to find a
> voice to play melodies in the range of G (2nd line) to G (one octave
> higher), as the soprano did not have access to the Ab and A. The
> french horn with it's closer partials was ideal to bridge the gap and
> make more music available to arrangers. Prior to the develop of the
> french horn, circa 1949, corps were very limited with simple one
> valve bugles. The french horn was a major advance in the bugle choir.
And french horns have no other virtues other than our range?
> The mellophone was employed in the early 60's, but until the F valve
> was legalized, it was no more useful in finding those missing notes
> than the soprano. Once we went to the G-F horns, the French Horn did
> a fade from the bugle choir.
And mellophones have no other virtues other than their range?
> The mellophone was easier to control and reduce the tick factor.
Well, I don't agree with that one. "[insert mellophone joke here]"
> Also the flugel bugle made inroads as an alternate middle voice as
> well. So the choices abounded for arrangers for the alto voice.
Oh, that's right. A french horn is an alto voice...
> Once drills began to fly in the 80's, it was difficult to control the
> thinner mouthpiece rim and it faded from the scene.
I actually found this point a very good one, although the negative
thing which ought to have been eliminated was inadequate marching
teaching and technique and NOT the french horn.
> The last significant use of the french horn was in the 1994 Glassmen
> Moody Blues show.
I haven't had the pleasure of seeing that.
> The mellophone can be fitted with a french horn mouthpiece
You just undercut your own good argument above.
> and that is frequently employed in marching bands.
Oh, now, THAT's the definitive explanation!
> To agree with Chuck's "Please" comment, several marching bands do use
> marching and concert french horns, so the notion that it was hard to
> write for seems implausible.
And writing for bands and writing for drum & bugle corps are exactly
analogous and completely transferable skills?
> Jeff
== Respectfully submitted,
== Catherine
Boof
it....................so.....................I say redesign.........design a
horn with the versatility of a Mello, but with the sound of a French
Horn..........Yeah, Yeah, tuning.......range........I think if a company
truly set out to do this it CAN be achieved and maybe Drum Corps Brass lines
could make a leap forward in the area of Sound and Tone Color..........Just
what I think............
-Boof
Vince Lamb
In article <8tqm6g$5us$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Catherine <cather...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <20001101211353...@ng-mk1.aol.com>,
> lega...@aol.com (LEG at cba) wrote:
> > At Skyliners Alumni we're trying to use 'em. But I can personally
> > testify to the fact that some of those mid-60's frenchie parts are
in
> > the mellophone range. If you don't believe me, stop in at a
> > rehearsal and bring your french horn (or at least your frenchie
> > mouthpiece).
I ran into one of Sky's FH players at the DCA alumni show. He had a
special mouthpiece--soprano cup on a french horn shank. I'm sure that
would create a really ripping sound!
Now to adding Catherine's comment from one post farther down the
thread...
> P.S. - There's two good reasons that Kilties and Sky march french
> horns - their names are Norman and Dreiser.
After listening to Hy's arrangements played by the Sky Alumni, it
occurred to me that trying to play them on Bb/F brass would drain the
life out of them--they were very specifically written for bugles. I
thought the same thing when I watched the tape of Brass Theater
from '96 or so that Bill Cook graciously sent me. When Star played
the "When You Wish Upon A Star" warmup, which was originally written
for G bugles, on Bb/F brass, it sounded anemic. Speaking of warmups
(which are probably the most common pieces of music written originally
for G bugles), I read that fans this summer thought that BD's "F
Tuning" also sounded thin and weak on Bb brass. In both cases, I think
power and excitement were being sacrificed for intonation.
As for Ken Norman's ability to arrange for french horn bugles, I can
personally attest to it, having had my ears blown off by "Sea Biscuit"
and Eva Upton, who ended AK's opener right behind me in 1978. Yow!
Oh, and about the intonation problems of french horn bugles--I remember
when PR and Madison refused to march mellos because of the intonation
problems and instead marched french horns because of the superior
intonation, which more than balanced out the tendency of french horns
to crack! Even AK cut back from 4 mellos to 2 mellos in 1978 because
of balance and intonation concerns. VK didn't march any mellos at all
in 1978, instead using alto bugles!
Now back to Catherine's response from *this* post in the thread!
> Half the reason french horns went by the wayside was because of bando
> types who didn't know how to write for them, didn't know how to teach
> them, and running drills (with a small mouthpiece) by members who
> never learned to march with a book on their head and shock absorbing
> hips.
Heh, you and Stuart have a lot to talk about when it comes to lousy
technique by modern corps! I notice the two of you have cited each
other as "helpful people" on your public my-deja pages.
<snip!>
> The issue is with those who judge and write for us as though we were
> something that we're not - people who would prefer that we were
> something other than partial contributors to those historic virtues
> that build interest in corps and now are continuing to REBUILD the
> activity at large.
You found the Riot Club announcement interesting in many ways. Any of
those ways you'd care to comment about?
> More of us need to have the confidence in who and what we are to speak
> up. Let those who think their values and recommendations are superior
> explain how their values will preserve the unique integrity and love
> of this activity.
I should send you my "drum corps for the class of 2000 and beyond"
posts from the first two symposiums. Email me and remind me.
> -- Catherine
Vince
Daniel O'Neal
90's? I never saw one in person, but I remember them from the ads -- looked
like French horn bugles, but used mello mouthpieces. Did any corps ever
actually use these?
Dan
Frank Schoenbach
Chuck Naffier <arra...@frii.com> wrote:
> Stan Kenton and Miles Davis' worst nightmares were french horns.
There
> are few things less pleasing to listen to than out-of-tune overblowing
> that Kenton had during the "Mellophonium" years in the early '60's.
> Kenton was never very into "clean" and "tight" anyway, but those
sounds
> were the worst in his illustrious career.
Hi Chuck!
I'll have to disagree a bit there.....the worst sound Kenton ever had
was that hideous "City of Glass." I finally bought it and all I could
say was "what the hell was Stan thinking?" (Stan is one of my musical
heroes, even got my picture taken with him!)
Anyway, granted the mellophoniums were loud...but that was in keeping
with the Kenton style. Brash, loud, high, power. Probably the reason
so many of his charts were so easily adapted to drum corps! Which, btw,
were some very good arrangements. When Argonne did "Malaga" in 1973, it
was pretty much verbatim except the sax solo being left out.
Anyway, the mellophone for drum corps came from the Kenton band. It was
out of tune and loud. Huge bells that made it project so well that
only two at most were needed on the field. Meanwhile, the French horn
section stayed around six or so.
There are some great FH solos from the past, and soli parts as well. I
still remember Dennis Drews (I think that was his name...tall guy with
lots of hair) doing the FH solo in "God Bless The Child" with Madison
in 73 and 74. Great sound!
Madison marched FH's only after 1972 til I'm not sure. Was very good.
At the same though, corps like Cabs, Muchachos and Bridgemen were
marching mellophones only. So there was a lot of experimenting going
on.
> If bugle manufacturers could ever make an instrument that was actually
> relatively in tune (even with itself) I would not hesitate to write
for
> it. It is a nice color, and certainly one that is missing from the
> current palate. But. . . if the choice is writing for today's
marching
> french horn or writing for mellophones that have a chance to be heard
> (and in tune), that's kind of a no-brainer. . .
In the day, it was the mellophones that were hard to tune. Today
though, with everything three valve and better made, tuning should be
much less of a problem. In my experience too, tuning problems are
sometimes, many times, the fault of the player more than the instrument.
It's more than just the instrument..has to do more many times with ear
training and experience of the player. (No, I don't have a music
degree, just 35 or so years of experience, 20+ of it professional).
I do kinda disagree too about the drills...the high speed affecting the
playing on any instrument, but probably worse the smaller the mouth
piece. I remember Cecil Austin at a DCM meeting once talking
about "modern" style. He said he would sit in the stands and see some
kid have to go 30 or 40 yards in 8 counts at full speed while
playing...he would just ask "why?" Why is that neccessary? How does
being trained to play while doing that contribute to a kid's musical
education? Is that going to make him or her a better player and make a
major symphony?
> Done rambling --
>
> Chuck Naffier
Me too :)
Frank
LEG at cba
>marching mellophones only. So there was a lot of experimenting going
>on.
Frank, you better check your information on this. I'm pretty sure Muchachos
and Bridgemen were using frenchies at least until 75 (Hawthorne) and 76
(Bridgemen).
Guys at Sky Alumni played FH in those lines.
Larry "G"
LEG at cba
>special mouthpiece--soprano cup on a french horn shank. I'm sure that
>would create a really ripping sound!
You beat me to the commentary, Vince. Hy had the mouthpiece shanks turned down
so that the guys playing frenchie wouldn't end up with a hole in the middle of
their lips. And before anyone wants to question his judgement, Hy was a french
horn player himself. As for intonation and tuning - how many corps instructors
of the late 60's were using Conn Strobotuners at the big shows?
Excellent thread.
Larry "G"
Catherine
"Boof" <booth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I personally believe that anything is possible if you truly believe in
> it
Which is why the currently one-sided stance of many re: horns, keys and
intonation is especially upsettingly narrow, and in my opinion a result
of fashion, personal taste and - in more than a few cases, huge self-
interest - more than any superior set of values. When so many people
on this NG and elsewhere have for DECADES pleaded the beauties and love
of french horn performances... When I remember 23 years ago playing my
horn and having so many say how they loved that strong french horn
voice... And now that voice is wrong for drum corps? There is the
inconsistency that one must explain.
> ....................so.....................I say
> redesign .........design a horn with the versatility of a Mello,
> but with the sound of a French Horn..........Yeah, Yeah,
> tuning.......range........I think if a company
> truly set out to do this it CAN be achieved and maybe Drum Corps
> Brass lines could make a leap forward in the area of Sound and Tone
> Color..........Just what I think............
It's really, really sad that people can no longer go out and have their
performance be about them and their sound. It's not about teaching
members how to play like a Jim Ott hornline (thank heavens our
percussionists still respect rudiments). It's not about teaching guard
to be proud of their particular traditions; those have largely been
erased (even though many of us remember the slaps of rifle straps, the
perfect spins of say, the Troopers or the Kingsmen). It has to be about
new and more "in tune" instruments (i.e., band instruments and
synthesizers), about "fixing" all the perceived and defined "problems"
in drum & bugle corps in ways that work for some bands and
some "professional musicians". That very attitude in itself is
revealing.
I say redesign the judging community and certain opinions from other
corners that a musical taste - which appears to have little tradition
in drum & bugle corps history - get OUT of the activity.
It's funny. On the political OTs, some people are upset by judges who
are legislating their opinion. Here we have a situation - one of many -
wherein judges and others in our activity are changing the activity
based upon the collective and progressive evaluative system that passes
as judging in our activity. These people appear to promulgate their
musical agenda regarding different key and bando instrumentation and
arrangments instead of judging the performances of the corps in front
of them. Certainly we can see what the more important value is...
-- Catherine
Frank Schoenbach
hmmmm ok.... I do remember Bridgemen in 72 having mellos only, at least
that's what it looked like. Cabs though, definately all mellos the
two years I saw them in 71 and 72.
Ryan H. Turner
but VK was using french horns as LATE as 1985 for sure (10 mellos, 4 or 5
French horns) and possibly 1986. However, when Dave Carico took over horns in
1987, I think we were mellos only...and if you want proof of the French horns
in use, watch the 1985 video during the last park and blow in "Final
Analysis"...you'll see a kid by the name of Garth Ramsey in a full screen shot
playing horn.
Ryan H. Turner--Man w/NO life whatsover...and proud of it!!
MARCHING BAND, DRUM CORPS, WINTER GUARD FAN
VK DM 1986 and 1987
Show Design Consultant/Visual Consultant/Marching Instructor
911/Fire Dept Comm. Dispatcher...and a partridge in a pear tree!
BDSCV
The most in-tune bugle I have ever been associated with was the King 2 valve
FH. Bugle manufacturers have made in tune French Horns, and could again, if
anyone wanted them.
Re: Marching and playing
While I marched in Drum Corps, I was also playing principal horn in college. My
teacher at the time initially hated Drum Corps. Until he saw the incredible
chops that we developed over the spring and summer while his other students
progressed more slowly.
March correctly and you can play any horn. We all know that French Horn is
difficult. But saying that we shouldn't have them in Drum Corps because they
are difficult to play while marching is ludicrous.
So why no French Horns?
Mellophones only are louder.
Mellophones are easier to play. And for most horn instructors, that's a big
plus. And I do agree that this is an issue in the world of high velocity drill
(mostly from the field judge perspective).
With three valves, everyone can play an Eb. I agree with Jeff on this one -
once all the horns had three valves, the importance of the horn in the
arranger's arsenal was diminished.
Will there be a French Horn renaissance?
Only if a top horn line uses French Horns and gets credit for it. Then everyone
else will copy them.
But I've got to tell you - it is getting tough to find good French Horn players
that want to play in Drum Corps out here!
---Chris Nalls
Played FH in BD 78-80
Taught FH for SCV 83, 85-88
Trying to recruit FH for Renegades 01
Robert Brown
>once all the horns had three valves, the importance of the horn in the
>arranger's arsenal was diminished.
>
Weren't French horns disappearing from drum corps before the 3rd valve
came around?
Rob
mnstudio
than the Mello's in order to balance, Chris knows. I also had to the only FH
in Junior Corps on my side of the field, Boy I had some chops then. I'm
almost back to hitting a High-C cleanly agian after 20 years. G's no
problem.
MNASH
aka Darkman
French Horn
Royal Chevaliers 75-76
SSF Conquistador 79-80
SF Renegades 98-???? FH soloist 2000
Need more FH for Renegades or I'm trying out for Drum Major
"BDSCV" <bd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001102133406...@ng-md1.aol.com...
kno...@rootcom.net
analogous and completely transferable skills?"
YES.
Cath, you're forcing me to finally write a long-planned discourse on
the FH bugle. I'll be replying separately to a number of the posts on
this thread.
I would strongly suggest that you shouldn't have started it by
alienating many of your potential allies. 99% of today's D&B brass
people came from the bando world, and most of us still live a parallel
life. When I finish posting today, I will pack my Bflat 4-valve
euphonium and head for rehearsal and BOD meeting of the Illinois BRASS
BAND (undefeated in the last five years of North American competitions).
Effective and idiomatic writing (or instructing) for any ensemble
requires a playing knowledge of the instruments (don't phone me for
your next oboe concerto) and a realistic assessment of the member's
skills and musicianship.
flatla...@my-deja.com
Vince Lamb <vince...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm indulging in a little creative editing to make a point.
>In article <8tqm6g$5us$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>Catherine <cather...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>Half the reason french horns went by the wayside was because of >>bando types who didn't know how to write for them, didn't know how >>to teach them, and running drills (with a small mouthpiece) by >>members who never learned to march with a book on their head and >>shock absorbing hips.
>
>Heh, you and Stuart have a lot to talk about when it comes to lousy
>technique by modern corps!
Ug. "But they're doing such hard things these days!" "But they all do it
the same!" "But ...." Don't get me started.
*Sigh*. I miss that thread on standards.
>I notice the two of you have cited each other as "helpful people" on >your public my-deja pages.
I must not know how that works - I didn't see anyone listed anywhere on
either. But since I'm on the subject, I did "meet" Catherine a week or two
ago via email. Nice person.
Stuart E. Rice
ser...@juno.com
http://www.geocities.com/marchingresearch
The Association for Research in the Marching Arts and Sciences
+MacKinley
"Ryan H. Turner" wrote:
> I know this will probably be ignored, as it's pretty much useless info anyway,
> but VK was using french horns as LATE as 1985 for sure (10 mellos, 4 or 5
> French horns) and possibly 1986.
and so was Santa Clara and Phantom Regiment, and the 27th Lancers, and the
Freelancers at this time, and the sound was pretty powerful if you had a good
player on the horn. Ever hear Tony Reilly (a proud Madison alumni!) play that FH
when the Kilties reformed. IT WAS F***ING LOUD!!! I was always impressed at the
big sound possible, and intonation was not a problem, but again with a good
player!
> However, when Dave Carico took over horns in
> 1987, I think we were mellos only...and if you want proof of the French horns
> in use, watch the 1985 video during the last park and blow in "Final
> Analysis"...you'll see a kid by the name of Garth Ramsey in a full screen shot
> playing horn.
how true!
m
--
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
The Milwaukee Scottish Pipe Band
http://members.nbci.com/mackinley/kfpb.html
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
Holy Trinity Celtic Orthodox ULC
http://members.nbci.com/mackinley/TheCOULC.html
St. Brendan COULC Skete
http://members.nbci.com/mackinley/skete.html
Bugleboy59
Tommy is a talented horn player, regardless of the mouthpiece, and I am PROUD
to call him my BEST FRIEND...
Mary
NY Skyliners Alumni Corp.2000
2nd Mellophone and Rookie NO MORE!
Robert Brown
>> but VK was using french horns as LATE as 1985 for sure (10 mellos, 4 or 5
>> French horns) and possibly 1986.
>
>and so was Santa Clara and Phantom Regiment, and the 27th Lancers, and the
>Freelancers at this time, and the sound was pretty powerful if you had a good
>player on the horn.
Blue Devils up until 86.
Rob
Dan Scerpella
>alienating many of your potential allies. 99% of today's D&B brass
>people came from the bando world, and most of us still live a parallel
>life. When I finish posting today, I will pack my Bflat 4-valve
>euphonium and head for rehearsal and BOD meeting of the Illinois BRASS
>BAND (undefeated in the last five years of North American competitions).
>
>Effective and idiomatic writing (or instructing) for any ensemble
>requires a playing knowledge of the instruments (don't phone me for
>your next oboe concerto) and a realistic assessment of the member's
>skills and musicianship.
>
>
minor criminals and juvenile delinquents. Some of us got our start in those
type of groups. The people who used to run the activity were those types of
people. Not a university educated musician in the whole lot.
But thats what made drum corps unique, because these were musicians who had
arrived at their art by another direction rather than the traditional way.
Much like the entire field of rock music where the musicians have mainly all
learned by rote. Its also the reason there has always been animosity between
the two schools of thought. Catherine I venture to say is an old timer, I
would probably put myself in that category as well.
Old school is out of power now, so the activity is dominated by the university
set, who in my view have tried their damndest to make drum corps an elite art
form. And they have suceeded. Drum Corps is a boring, elite, unaccessable, art
form. Attendance continues to drop for DCI, drum corps drop out of existence
as they cant compete financially because of large expenditures like THE PIT.
Yeah I said it the Pit!
Better the bandos never got a hold of corps. Had they stayed away, summer
weekends would probably see alot more drum corps in alot more contests with
fans full of happy entertained unsophisticated fans.
What's the point of having an opinion if you're not going to
cram it down somebody's throat?
Catherine
kno...@rootcom.net wrote:
> "And writing for bands and writing for drum & bugle corps are exactly
> analogous and completely transferable skills?"
>
> YES.
This thought is undeveloped, Ken - thank you for pointing that out. I
am on the run, and shall think on it further and reclarify.
As I pointed out in another post to Chuck, I am not diminishing band.
But I don't want to diminish corps, either. Until we find a better way
to celebrate both...
-- Catherine
Sharcast2
Well Geez Dan..
We agree on something anyway! ;-)
Perhaps we'll meet up at some contest some day.. Would be interesting..
Sharon
PS: Not the pit part.. I'm ambivalent.. not a muscian.. a guard person..
Pat Cavanaugh
gain no financial or personal gain...I just happened upon this and had to
stick my two cents in.
Stan Kenton Los Angeles Neophonic Orchestra - I stole the album from my high
school in 1973..I was a mellophone/trumpet and horn player...
HORN SECTION: Vince DeRosa, Bill Hinshaw, John Cave, Dick Perissi, Arthur
Maebe...Fanfare by Montenegro...Wow...could these guys crank...I learned the
horn parts off the record by placing a few quarters on the arm of the old
turntable to slow it down to the 'close' pitch ratio. I was hooked on the
French Horn and would accept nothing less.
Next year...General Butler Vagabonds....We brought back the valve/rotor long
body horns....
Ran 6 mellos and 6 horns. What great arrangements.....
1976...Won first individual French Horn Championship...DCI
1977...Won second Individual French Horn Championship...DCI
1978...Won third Individual French Horn Championship...DCI
1979...Won third individual French Horn Championship...DCI...(98.00)
Played...Granada and Hora Stacatto....Czardas.....and a couple of other wild
pieces.
1981...Steel City created in Pittsburgh...Played French Horn...Used old
Vagabond Arrangements from the 70's
1982..Still playing the horn..it was great
1983...Drietzer Arranged all music and with great horn parts authentic to
original scores.
1984...Still using them
Out 1985, 1986..Steeve Cooley Arranged...still used them..
1987...Hardest field show I ever marched...30 years old and hauled butt
around..remember using short olds or deg horns and rigging up bicycle mirors
to each side to do all the back slides into blind forms..(almost got to
crush some percussion judges (NJA) on a blind cross between the perc. and
mid voices...that was fun...Steve Cooley arr. Somewhere out There,
Nutville, One More Time Chuck...Come Rain or Come Shine...Great parts
1988...corps was struggling...played a Cooley arr. La Fuerza (sp...sorry)
Had to play the Billy Watrous trombone solo on horn and make it sound like
the screamer trombone range...up to High Bb and C (Thank goodness for
Carmine Carusso and the range studies...). Had a ball learning it and had
even more fun at 31...not marching the drill for the song.
Anyhow ...these kids can handle anything you write for them...at least in
the competitive association which I judge for. If Composers/arrangers are
ignoring the instrument for writing reasons I guess I can't speak for
them...I don't do much writing..at least not at the level of what's great
out there. Give the Drum Corps and Band members something to work with...
Thanks for reading my ranting and raving..I just needed to burn off some of
the caffiene I consumed while working..
Pat Cavanaugh
----------
In article <20001102225635...@ng-bk1.aol.com>,
Catherine
Catherine <cather...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8tso1d$sdm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> kno...@rootcom.net wrote:
> > "And writing for bands and writing for drum & bugle corps are
> > exactly analogous and completely transferable skills?"
> >
> > YES.
OK, here's the clarification. "Skills" is imprecise - the denotation
was implied in my brain but the actual sense is wrong (communication
tick). It ought to be "knowledge" with the appropriate grammatical
changes. Also, given the differing instrumentation (I sure hope
woodwinds get militant and start whining more loudly about how their
instruments are not showcased so well in this brass-focused
atmosphere), different choices are required - in addition to the
particular gifts or lack thereof that an arranger has.
Catherine
dasn...@aol.com (DAS NorCal) wrote:
> What's this?
>
> What a bunch of whining French Horn weenies!
>
> French Horn playing is supposed to be hard. If it was easy - then
> everyone would want to do it.
I find at interesting that at the same time so many seem to be
talking "difficulty" and "excellence" of some forms, they also seem to
be arguing that since the horn is too hard to play in tune for many we
should axe them.
Inconsistent?
But as we were saying last night, corps today seems to be less about
teaching anyone anything than it used to be when one had to build corps
up. Let us hope that teaching people better corps skills when they are
found wanting is considered as a solution as opposed to just cutting -
whether we are talking what are now pit instruments, french horns,
drum& bugle corps themselves...
mosthu...@my-deja.com
horn bugle! Most everything I hear in jr. corps sounds extremely thin
in the middle. What surprises me is as the activity has become more
esoteric; the choices for voicings have been reduced. One might think
the additional timbres available with a full compliment of altos (6
flugels, 4 mellophones, and 6 french horns in my day) would be welcome
in an activity that is pushing (has pushed) the envelope past even the
most loving of listeners ears (that typically being educated drum corps
fans). This is either a commentary on, as suggested, the arrangers
(probably not) or the relative emphasis of drill vs music currently
espoused by the activity (more likely the case).
Homer
o=ii=(O)~~~
Spirit 80
"Loud is beautiful." J.O.
kno...@rootcom.net
Tony played soprano with some good Madison and Sunriser lines after a
Brooklyn upbringing in the OLPH Ridgemen and St. Rita's Brassmen.
Unfortunately none of these groups were able to cure him of being a
player who used extreme arm pressure to form an embouchure. You could
always locate him by the Carmex fumes.
One day, looking at his hamburger chops, I said to him: "Tony, the
choice is yours. You can continue to maim yourself, or (handing him a
French Horn mouthpiece) I can put you on a rim SO narrow that you won't
be able to play in your habitual manner."
flatla...@my-deja.com
Catherine <cather...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8tt152$4m8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Catherine <cather...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > In article <8tso1d$sdm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > kno...@rootcom.net wrote:
> > > "And writing for bands and writing for drum & bugle corps are
> > > exactly analogous and completely transferable skills?"
> > >
> > > YES.
Writing what? I realize I'm not aware of the context of that remark,
but the only creative material I can think of as transferrable is guard
and percussion work (and those tend to loose a lot in the translation
to the band skill level). Band drill is infinitely more complicated
and restrictive in terms of maintaining some semblance of blend and
balance of sound. God knows their instrumentation require different
approaches to arranging.
> OK, here's the clarification. "Skills" is imprecise - the denotation
> was implied in my brain but the actual sense is wrong (communication
> tick). It ought to be "knowledge" with the appropriate grammatical
> changes.
While we're at it, let's clarify "difficulty" and "excellence."
Excellence may be difficult, but difficulty is often not excellence
(unless you see drum corps as a dog and pony show).
Stuart E. Rice
ser...@juno.com
http://www.geocities.com/marchingresearch
The Association for Research in the Marching Arts and Sciences
Robert Brown
>(unless you see drum corps as a dog and pony show).
>
And excellence may not be difficult.
Where's that damn truth table when I need it?
Rob
>
>Stuart E. Rice
>ser...@juno.com
>http://www.geocities.com/marchingresearch
>The Association for Research in the Marching Arts and Sciences
>
>
Dan Scerpella
pit. But make them wear hats!!!
flatla...@my-deja.com
rob...@TAKEOUT.kcti.com (Robert Brown) wrote:
>>Excellence may be difficult, but difficulty is often not excellence
>>(unless you see drum corps as a dog and pony show).
>And excellence may not be difficult.
Shouldn't be, anyway. Should be the easiest, funnest things in the
world.
>Where's that damn truth table when I need it?
>
>Rob
Heh. OK, one more guess Rob - Red hair? Was there a shot of you doing
a slide on 83 PBS? Beard?
Stuart E. Rice
ser...@juno.com
http://www.geocities.com/marchingresearch
The Association for Research in the Marching Arts and Sciences
Terri Dittrich
beast and WE KNOW IT.
-Terri
"DAS NorCal" <dasn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001103095331...@ng-ck1.aol.com...
> What's this?
>
> What a bunch of whining French Horn weenies!
>
> French Horn playing is supposed to be hard. If it was easy - then everyone
> would want to do it.
>
> Last thing we would ever want would be a bunch of Mellophone & Soprano
players
> switching over to FH.
>
> Now, don't get me wrong. Some of my best friends are Mellophone players. I
even
> admit to be one of the co-founders (along with SCVAA buddy Terry Lee) of
the
> Mellophone Section at San Jose State. At that time it was a much better to
play
> a Turkey Horn (Mellophonium) than a Peck Horn (Altonium). Besides - once
Bill
> Nicolosi finished doing his "mad scientist" routine on those beasts (with
a
> pipe cutter, some solder and a torch) they actually did come close to
playing
> in tune.
>
> But - to meet the challenge of playing an instrument pitched one step
higher
> than your concert instrument; to put air through an instrument the same
length
> as a Baritone, but with a fraction of the bore diameter; to play
everything "up
> an octave" in relation to your overtone series; to march with high mark
time
> while balancing a knife edge of a mouthpiece on your chops; and to play
French
> Horn parts written by the greats like: Royer, Crawford, Ott, Baumgard,
Duffy
> and the great Kenny Norman - there is nothing like it in all of Drum
Corps!
>
> Yes - time to teach the new generation of arrangers how to write for this
most
> noble of all Brass Instruments!
>
> And time for all you true HORN Players to shut up and play the damn notes!
>
> [Biggest let down of the Year 2000 Season? Master HORN Player Chris Nalls
> playing a Mellophone in the SF Renegades (instead of his French Horn)....]
>
> - Dan Smith
> - HORN Player
>
>
>
Aaron Frost
wrote:
> This doesn't even begin to address the lack of color in a 20
> person baritone line. With the tight wrapped horns currently being
> sold, there is little chance of getting the darker sound that a bugle of
> 15 years ago could have made -- and virtually no chance of the blend of
> the older lines of the mid to early 80's.
What about euphoniums? Wouldn't they fill the void between the baritones and
the "bass voice"?
--
Aaron Frost
Blue Stars Baritone '00-??
aafr...@yahoo.com
adfrost.tripod.com
Robert Brown
>>>(unless you see drum corps as a dog and pony show).
>
>>And excellence may not be difficult.
>
>Shouldn't be, anyway. Should be the easiest, funnest things in the
>world.
>
>>Where's that damn truth table when I need it?
>>
>>Rob
>
>Heh. OK, one more guess Rob - Red hair? Was there a shot of you doing
>a slide on 83 PBS? Beard?
>
Nope, that's Randy Riggs (he was in the small ensemble with you). I
didn't make the video in 83. In 84, I'm the flugle horn player in La
Fiesta (first flugle shown, second one is Steve Green).
In 85, I've got a shot during the small ensemble in the opener, and a
shot during the alto feature in First Circle.
Rob
>
>Stuart E. Rice
>ser...@juno.com
>http://www.geocities.com/marchingresearch
>The Association for Research in the Marching Arts and Sciences
>
>
Jeff Mitchell
Levi,
By significant, my meaning was as a major featured voice in the brass
choir. They had several horn features, the likes of which have not been
seen since.
Jeff
Levi Boldt wrote:
> Jeff Mitchell wrote:
>
> > The last significant use of the french horn was in
> > the 1994 Glassmen Moody Blues show.
>
> I seem to remember French Horns being used by the Glassmen as late as
> 1997. I could be mistaken though...
>
> --
> Levi Boldt
>
> "The distinction between the optimist and
> the pessimist: an optimist is someone who
> says, 'This is the best of all possible
> worlds,' and a pessimist is a person who
> says, 'You're right.'"
> - Joseph Weizenbaum
Michael E. Schmidt
A Corps without french horns is like a corps without contras.
Howdy
----------
In article <gXGM5.17115$Pw6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
Daniel O'Neal
everything that the young kids today actually think is cool. I mean, seriously,
the kids who are in junior corps today like it pretty much the way it is, I'll
wager. If you did all these things to take jr. corps back 20 or 30 years, how
many modern 17 year olds are gonna want to march? Where ya gonna find 'em?
Nearly all of the kids who are in drum corps today are kids who came up through
band and feel, rightly IMO, that DCI is the epitome of the marching activity.
They want to be a part of that. I doubt many would want to be a part of an
anachronism.
As for the pit ... well, the area I live in is kind of backwards when it comes to
marching band, due, I suppose, in large part to our poor economy and our relative
isolation. Even so, there are a couple bands that have made the decision to
remain firmly anchored in the 70's. But even when I was in high school ten years
ago, the attitude of the kids my own age was, "Why don't they have a pit?" I
distinctly remember our feature twirler, of all people, saying, "They sound so
empty."
Bottom line, kids today march in DCI corps because they like what DCI corps are
doing. Why do so many flock to join these "boring" corps year after year? Why is
the competition to make the pit of a top five corps so intense? For that matter,
if drum corps has gotten so lame, then why do the best high school bands in the
nation (some of them are absolutely phenomenal) do shows of a similar style --
sometimes the bands' shows are even more far out -- Can we say Plymouth-Canton?
:-)
And Catherine, if modern color guards are so despicable, why is WGI doing so well?
Heck, WGI is actually growing, isn't it? ... perhaps the only segment of the
marching or "pagentry" community that is.
Dan
kno...@rootcom.net
Don't look 'em up in your Funk'n'Wagnall's. Bugles, as we have known
them in North America for the better part of a century, are brass
marching instruments built by band instrument manufacturers and
fundamentally pitched in "G".
For economic reasons, they are produced mostly from tooling developed
to build band instruments. Different assembly jigs, some bending forms,
and possibly leadpipe mandrels have to be crafted to produce
the "specialty" instruments.
(A notable reversal of these roles: the Olds mellophone bugle furnished
the basic components for the Olds/Reynolds/Bach/mercedes F mellophone.)
All French Horn bugles (there have been over twenty distinct models)
have been made from F-Bb horn components - the bell, the two tapered
branches, the leadpipe, and various valve cluster assemblies, tuning
slides, and cylindrical tubing. All this is wrapped into a portable
bellfront design.
I would first classify these FH bugles by bell diameter - 8 inch, 10
inch, and 12 inch. This dimension has the greatest effect in
determining the tone color of the instrument. In addition, the relative
size of the bell throat controls the volume and projection that can be
achieved, the cylindrical bore diameter is a smaller influence here.
The wrap ("longie" or "stubby") is of little consequence.
All FH bugles from the pre-phone era had roughly an 8 inch bell. This
produces a bright color and aids response of the upper partials which
are the tessitura of an outdoor-friendly horn. In ensembles with the
smallbore baritones still in use then, they were a strong voice.
Although built from the same components as concert FHs, their closest
relative in the brass family are the Wagner tubas in F and Bb - played
with a FH mouthpiece and having a bell about this size. A horn witn a
8" bell would sound overly brash in a contemporary marching brass
ensemble.
Adoption of the 12 inch bell had much to do with the near self-
extinction of this species.
Zig Kanstul built a largebell FH for the Anaheim Scouts, before their
splitup into VK and AK camps. But it was the Smith FH of the mid-60s
that had the major impact. The handiwork of a Huller factory employee I
knew only as "harry", it served as the inspiration for the "stubby"
wrap used for the last 25 years on all marching french horns, be they G
or F or Bb.
The appearance of this instrument deluded us into thinking that we
could get the velvet tones of a concert FH in an outdoor ensemble. We
didn't consider the significant effect of a hand in the bell, or
concert-hall acoustics. What we got was a tone color very similar to
the 11" bell baritones, but without the power and projection.
The compromise is a 10 inch bell - found only on the long Olds BU-10
and the few FH bugles that Zig Kanstul has produced. A goodly number of
corps returned to this model in the mid-70s after putting in several
seasons on the stubby BU-11s. The allure of shiny undented new horns
with two pistons eventually curtailed their usage.
Finally the obvious. These FH bugles have been augmented, and
eventually replaced in the midvoice choir by the mellophone, flugel
bugle, and several varieties of altos. New tone colors and idioms have
overshadowed a distinctive and useful voice. Often in hopeful
compliance with some imaginary standards of the almighty score sheet.
Stay tuned for more.........
Levi Boldt
LEG at cba
>arrived at their art by another direction rather than the traditional way.
>Much like the entire field of rock music where the musicians have mainly all
>learned by rote.
...Argh! The dreaded 3 chord wonder bands!
> Its also the reason there has always been animosity between
>the two schools of thought. Catherine I venture to say is an old timer, I
>would probably put myself in that category as well.
....I'm an old timer, too. But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate good music
- regardless of the genre.
>Old school is out of power now, so the activity is dominated by the
>university
>set, who in my view have tried their damndest to make drum corps an elite art
>form. And they have suceeded.
>
Dan, I hate to break it to you, but even in the 50's and 60's the best corps
arrangers were university trained. Like Ken Norman said in this thread, the
smart arrangers write for the level of the performing group regardless of what
that group is. Unfortunately, some program directors have delusions of
grandeur and tell the arranger to write for 50 or 60 experienced horns when
they can't get two dozen (half of which are newbies) to show up for rehearsals.
Hence the staff is left with the challenge of trying to make a "silk purse out
of a sow's ear". Yes, there are some lousy arrangers out there. And even the
best arrangers (including the late Hy Dreitzer) come up with a "dog" now and
then. But on the whole, you can't blame the arrangers for all of the problems.
It is much deeper and a whole lot more complicated.
Larry "G"
Old timer of sorts
DAS NorCal
DAS NorCal
And who could have written it better?
I bow to the most magnificent one!
Dan Scerpella
>
>We agree on something anyway! ;-)
>
>Perhaps we'll meet up at some contest some day.. Would be interesting..
>
>Sharon
>
>PS: Not the pit part.. I'm ambivalent.. not a muscian.. a guard person..
>
>
>
>
you at this moment.
BTW who did you march? and when.
Dan Scerpella
Fascinating though!
Jonnyjmpup
Question-I understand the cup contours and bore sizes help create the horn
sound,but which commandment said the rim had to be paper thin.From my
uneducated point of view,the rim has nothing to do with creating the wanted
sound? Just tradition?
Sharcast2
Dan,
I marched with 3 corps my whole marching life. Probably most notable (for me)
in DCI would be North Star. 1978 -1980
If I recall you marched Madison in 78 right?
We were direct competitors. How's that for irony? :-)
Sharon
Catherine
Suggest away!
> Question-I understand the cup contours and bore sizes help create the
> horn sound,but which commandment said the rim had to be paper
> thin. From my uneducated point of view,the rim has nothing to do
> with creating the wanted sound? Just tradition?
I realize corps is different these days, but my first horn (a Getzen, I
believe) in the Ambassadors came with a Farkas MDC, a relatively
thinner-lipped mouthpiece. Over the years, I came to prefer the XDC,
and have both a silver and gold one - as appropriate.
Since I have no highly-schooled expertise on french horn (for good
reason) - merely know what I like, what works for me, and what has
worked for me so well that no other horn instructor I have ever had
ever had a problem with my playing - I will recommend a site for those
who would like to learn a little more from french horn. I have not
perused the site in depth - it's been a while. But I became acquainted
with Prof. Pizka
through his posts on the Horn NG. I liked many of his views on the
Horn.
Also, play long, low notes to warm up. Nurture that tone...
Love it!
-- Catherine
kno...@rootcom.net
uneducated point of view,the rim has nothing to do with creating the
wanted sound? Just tradition?"
Good point. For half a century we've been using either our band
mouthpiece, whatever came with the horn, or anything that fits.
An outdoor FH needs a large mouthpiece to enable a full sound. I have
used the old Conn 1, Bach 3, and Olds 1 - in each case the
manufacturer's largest offering. Pieces larger than this are real tough
on your endurance, but have been used by some individuals, notably the
12-man line of '77 Madison.
But most players seem to prefer smaller pieces like the Bach 11 and
Farkas ML. They can never achieve the potential volume and projection.
Especially when parked next to the baris.
I once had a trumpet-rimmed FH piece in my coffeecan, but it was a
cushion rim with a sharp inner edge, so I didn't really give it a
workout. But I see no reason why a wider rim couldn't be useful on a
marching FH mouthpiece. It might freak out the legit cats, but for
those of us with no fear of doubling it could be valid hardware. The
important thing is to have adequate cup volume and throat diameter, rim
sizes could be anywhere in the large trumpet-FH range.
Someone with a budget to order up a buncha screwrim components could
have a blast doing research here!
Scott Williams
great frenchy line. Yes I will admit they were good for what they were
doing, but even in SCV in '92 (also the last year frenchies were used in
SCV) we had awesome players, as long as they were standing still. make them
move and that horn just didn't work. The mouthpiece combined with the
register the horn plays in with the partials all being so closely spaced.
it's just too much work to do really well. You can be good, but not great
IMO, when moving.
With the change to multikey instruments the best change in color is with the
Bb trump/sops and F mello's. I don't like the change to multikey, but it's
here and we might as well use it. And Catherine, SCV only used 4 mellos,
not 6. and 8 frenchies. We didn't NEED 6 Mellos. To be honest, the mello's
from SCV were always badass and some years only really needed 2 to get the
same sound from 8 in any other corps. Course that's my bias, but just
listen to '89-'92 and you'll probably think the same thing.
--
Scott W. Williams
'92 SCV
'90 VK
'86-'89 RMM
"Catherine" <cather...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8tqmln$6cr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> P.S. - There's two good reasons that Kilties and Sky march french
> horns - their names are Norman and Dreiser.
>
> So here's a challenge to all you bando arrangers out there... Stop
> writing us out of drum & bugle corps. Kenton and Miles didn't seem to
> have trouble writing for french horns and mellos, as well as the two
> listed above, and Gregg, Jim Ott and other such silly people who
> thought that the challenges offered by the horn were far outweighed by
> the benefits.
>
> What's your problem?
>
> -- Catherine
Catherine
"Michael E. Schmidt" <fluge...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Bring back the french horn!!!!!
> A Corps without french horns is like a corps without contras.
> Howdy
You're making nice.... :>)
Yeah, what would we EVER do without those baby elephant cyclops
animals? Contras have always been some of my favorite people -
starting with Mike Murray and Charlie through Billy the Mountain and Oh
Where The Hell Is Emery and Tim Homo Sapien (that's not nearly a
complete list, but y'all get the picture)...
We always, always, ALWAYS have adored SCV's contras. And then there
were the Anaheim Kingsmen contra features...
As for big horns who wear Kilts... That goes without saying.
Good night to Nessie,
DAS NorCal
A Farkas XDC? My kind of woman!
Now I feel like a real whimp playing my Farkas VDC.....
The last MDC I had I gave to SCV's Eric Unruh when I was teaching back in '71.
I always love to hear my old mouthpiece on the first version of "Chava" (before
Eric was switched to Mellophone....).
Re: The rim - the inside edge is more of a factor than anything else. The
harder the cut the cleaner the articulation. The Farkas VDC has a narrow rim
and a sharp inside edge. Great for clean, clear articulations, rough on the
chops at a long rehearsal.
Re: The shape of the cup and the opening of the back bore - the more you can
get into the Horn, the more control you have over the sound (assuming that the
Horn itself is "open" enough to handle it. Small bore on the Horn with a
"toilet bowl" mouthpiece can mean a lot of back pressure (like playing an
Oboe....)
Anyway - keep those real HORNS playin'!
BTW - I forgot to mention Keith Markey on my previous list of arrangers who
really knew how to write for the FH....
Later....
- Dan Smith
DAS NorCal
Only the whimps complain....
Real HORN players will take anything the arranger and drill writer throw at
them, chew it up, spit it out, and then ask for more!
Royer used to throw us Frech Horns the most insane stuff and we would love it!
(That's what happens when the arranger is a concert organist!)
BTW - Anyone catch the French Horns in the 1997 SCV Alumni Corps?
An incredable middle sound can be achieved by the right mix of French Horns &
Mellophones Just need the right arranger to make it happen (and the right drill
writer to stage it properly).
Keep those HORNS playin'!
- Dan Smith
Catherine
"Scott Williams" <swill...@uswest.net> wrote:
> ...To be honest, the mello's from SCV were always badass and some
> years only really needed 2 to get the same sound from 8 in any other
> corps. Course that's my bias, but just listen to '89-'92 and you'll
> probably think the same thing.
In '74 VK, there were two of us - Louie Murray and me, one on each side
of the field (our two-arc 54-man-drill-cut-down-to-18-drill in Espana
Cani...). That was such a fun corps year - my first in the VK - and
there were quite a few great players in that line. The VK beat the
Seattle Imperials that year - even with their 54 horns. It's nice when
a small corps wins...
In the Crusaders, I was 13 years old and the only french horn after the
tour season (there had been 5 of us during the summer). We had at
least 30 horns total (hard to remember some things 30 years later).
In '77 VK, I had a hype going to play really, really loud (with Dina -
15 years old - who gave her nickname as "Balls"], Eva [as Vince just
noted, Eva - at 13 years - could crank] and Walter, our rookie FH).
Our horn instructor - french horn player, too - kept saying how he
liked the strong horn voice. But before the end of tour, he finally
told me I needed to back off. Fun moment!
So much depends upon the individuals in your line. There are SO many
people out there who have experienced such things. It's always great
when musicians get in a flow and the sound pours forth.
As for the perceived onerous difficulty of the small mouthpiece when
marching... While we addressed this objection by pointing out that
french horns often use adapters while playing mello, I would add that
it also helps when you learned how to (high) mark time with a book on
your head and use your hips as shock absorbers. Just something else to
be worked with and learn how to overcome so that the best can sail
forth (like dressing to the left carrying a contra)...
kno...@rootcom.net
adoption of the G-F bugle in 1968 and then, the demise of it can be
more clearly understood. With a G-D bugle it was impossible to find a
voice to play melodies in the range of G (2nd line) to G (one octave
higher), as the soprano did not have access to the Ab and A. The french
horn with it's closer partials was ideal to bridge the gap and make
more music available to arrangers. Prior to the development of the
french horn, circa 1949, corps were very limited with simple one valve
bugles. The french horn was a major advance in the bugle choir.
The mellophone was employed in the early 60's, but until the F valve
was legalized, it was no more useful in finding those missing notes
than the soprano. Once we went to the G-F horns, the French Horn did a
fade from the bugle choir. The mellophone was easier to control and
reduce the tick factor. Also the flugel bugle made inroads as an
alternate middle voice as well."
These well-written paragraphs are from the man-most-likely-to-notice-
frenchies, next season's DCA brass caption head and author of the "G
bugle" webpage.
Please note the homage to the almighty tick. It ruled us for many
decades.
Catherine
OOOOOOhhhhhhhhhh!
> Now I feel like a real whimp playing my Farkas VDC.....
Now don't feel that way.
At the risk of angering the Emerald Knights out there (since when has
that ever stopped me)... '77 VK met them a lot on tour, and there were
a lot of "Ke - NIGG - it" hypes (think Monty Python and the Holy Grail
for pronunciation) going on that summer as we'd continue to run into
each other's corps.
One rehearsal day, both hornlines warmed up together. The EKs
generally had shallow cup mouthpieces to assist their range. The
french horns started warming up playing high G's and stuff. We were
all down on low notes. The EK french horn players were rightly
confident - they did well - but just a little brash and bold (which is
probably saying a lot coming from me). But after playing some of our
regular charts, they got looks at our mouthpieces - all mediums to
deep. Their chatting was a little quieter after that.
French horn tone quality forever!
-- Catherine
Robert Brown
>
YES!
>An incredable middle sound can be achieved by the right mix of French Horns &
>Mellophones
My roomie from college was in the SCV alumni mellophone section (Jamie
Godwin).
Rob
BD Alumn (jealous)
zu...@my-deja.com
bugle on ebay, here's the auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=488969531
Terri Dittrich
Sandra Opie suggested the Bach 11 a long, long time ago. I used that in
junior corps. Since that is now a paperweight in lucite :-), I bought the
farkas ml.
(Time to go mouthpiece shopping).
-Terri
<kno...@rootcom.net> wrote in message news:8tvvu5$i65$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
WRoe424922
>marching band, due, I suppose, in large part to our poor economy and our
>relative
>isolation.
......what ya doin???....pedaling a generator to power up your puter???
Jonnyjmpup
suggestion of using horns with contempt,reason.....ticks,in a
"non-competitive" situation.I just didn't get it.
Catherine
news:3a0505cb....@news3.newscene.com...
>
> Wasn't Cedar Rapids, alongside the river there in the park, just the
> greatest place for practice? Thank you Jack Bevins, wherever you are,
> for making it possible.
With all our jokes about Jack (like him crying on the curb when all the
chaperones busted our coolers and dumped all the (cold) beer the kids had on
the bus). it was never quite the VKs without him - as in '74. He helped all
we were happen - and grow, when he was around.
"Cut the B***S***!"
Still remember him trying to toast Gale Royer... And up at Bud's
-- Catherine
Scott Williams
news:3a03899a....@news3.newscene.com...
> On Sat, 4 Nov 2000 08:46:17 -0700, "Scott Williams"
> <swill...@uswest.net> wrote:
>
> You have just shown how young and inexperienced you are. Don't take
> that as me slighting you. You weren't, judging from your resume in
> your sig, even born when some GREAT french horn lines were around.
> You can't be faulted for that. I'll leave it to others to give you a
> rundown on them.
>
> There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. Some of us
> old-timers KNOW the great lines existed--you WERE (until now) just
> ignorant of that fact.
Just because I wasn't born until '71 and didn't march until '86 , I'm
probably older than half the people who post here on RAMD (I'm not sure on
this, but from what I've seen, most aged out after I did). I do speak from
some experience. I played French horn for 6 years including a double Major
in College on Trumpet and Horn. I played Frenchy in DC for 1 year and
decided it was the worst brass instrument EVER designed in the history of
the world, well at least within the past 50 years. Hey, maybe they were
great french horn lines for what they were, but compared to the rest of the
hornline? NOT! I NEVER heard anything good coming out of a frenchy when it
was being played loudly or moving with much speed, and I've listened to
several recordings from the 50's and 60's. Maybe they were great at the
time, but listening to it now just makes my teeth grate. I'm saying this as
a horn player. The instrument sucked. Yes something needs to fill in the
"color" missing now with such top and bottom heavy hornlines. and Mello just
isn't dark enough sometimes, but the last time I heard a great frenchy was
back in '88 SCV and he was standing still and except for finals , he chowed
it every time that I heard him!! We had great players in '92, but the
instrument itself didn't lend itself to marching, especially with the
requirements these days of quick drill movement. No more concert piece for
the horns to get it together and blast away. I don't mean offense to anyone
with all this, but I am speaking from opinion and from my experience of what
I've seen, heard, and played.
Scott Williams
> In article <3A00EF7B...@prodigy.net>,
> JEFFMI...@prodigy.net wrote:
> > ...
> > The mellophone was easier to control and reduce the tick factor.
>
>
Disagree all you want Catherine, He's right!! I've played Soprano, Mello and
Frenchy. All in highly competitive DC and the Frenchy SUCKED for control.
The partials are just too damned close together to control it like the other
2.
> And writing for bands and writing for drum & bugle corps are exactly
> analogous and completely transferable skills?
From Band to Corps it is, not necessarily the other way though. In fact
there was an instrument that worked great. I played it my first 2 years in
HS marching band. It sounded like a French Horn but played like a Mello and
used a horn mouthpiece, not a cornet or trumpet shank. I don't remember who
even made the thing. It was called a Frumpet. It was in F and looked like
a huge trumpet with a bell flare that went all the way back to the opposite
side of the horn. The partials were closely spaced like a real horn, but it
was much easier to control and was a million times better than a DC G
frenchy bugle! And as a former Horn player, I DO at least agree that the
mouthpiece wasn't that big a deal with the horn. As if they all come in one
size? You can get wider rimmed MP's for the horn. I had to because I was
playing trumpet also, and without the wider rim, it was extremely difficult
to make the switch.
Catherine
"Scott Williams" <swill...@uswest.net> wrote:
> "Over N' Out" <over_...@nym.alias.net> wrote in message
> news:3a03899a....@news3.newscene.com...
> > On Sat, 4 Nov 2000 08:46:17 -0700, "Scott Williams"
> > <swill...@uswest.net> wrote:
> >
> > You have just shown how young and inexperienced you are. Don't take
> > that as me slighting you. You weren't, judging from your resume in
> > your sig, even born when some GREAT french horn lines were around.
> > You can't be faulted for that. I'll leave it to others to give you
> > a rundown on them.
> Just because I wasn't born until '71 and didn't march until '86 ,
> I'm probably older than half the people who post here on RAMD (I'm
> not sure on this, but from what I've seen, most aged out after I
> did).
Interesting point, especially if one extrapolates from the two posts.
And you are right - your age is not necessarily a barrier to having an
opinion... based upon your values and experiences. I have taken
others' argument to heart, that I have to learn better how to reach
across the divide that separates us now that I will be teaching again
and having to explain the divide to others. It is finding out how and
why the divide separates us that will lead to a better win-win
resolution of the issues - it that's really what all corps people
want. If one side is looking to win at the expense of the other, the
pendulum of corps fashions will continue to swing.
> I do speak from some experience. I played French horn for 6 years
> including a double Major in College on Trumpet and Horn. I played
> Frenchy in DC for 1 year and decided it was the worst brass
> instrument EVER designed in the history of the world, well at least
> within the past 50 years.
I'm sure there are many who agree with you. If you have never heard
the exceptions to what you believe, it makes sense that you don't
believe that there are and have been exceptions.
I also know that there are many people who believe that the concert
french horn instrument is the worst instrument ever. And others who
have other instruments they place as the "worst ever" (Texas Conn horns
come to mind).
> Hey, maybe they were great french horn lines for what they were, but
> compared to the rest of the hornline? NOT! I NEVER heard anything
> good coming out of a frenchy when it was being played loudly or
> moving with much speed, and I've listened to several recordings from
> the 50's and 60's.
And you believe that such recordings are accurate reproductions of
those corps' performances?
> Maybe they were great at the time, but listening to it now just makes
> my teeth grate. I'm saying this as a horn player. The instrument
> sucked. Yes something needs to fill in the "color" missing now with
> such top and bottom heavy hornlines. and Mello just isn't dark enough
> sometimes, but the last time I heard a great frenchy was back in '88
> SCV and he was standing still and except for finals , he chowed
> it every time that I heard him!! We had great players in '92, but the
> instrument itself didn't lend itself to marching, especially with the
> requirements these days of quick drill movement. No more concert
> piece for the horns to get it together and blast away.
Some of the problem relates to today's drills not enhancing section
unity and proper featuring, which I feel impacts the french horn
section even more than other sections.
> I don't mean offense to anyone with all this, but I am speaking from
> opinion and from my experience of what I've seen, heard, and played.
None taken. Your reasoning and expressions seem reasonable to me, even
though I don't agree. And frankly, you have just challenged me to see
what I can do to change your opinions by working to provide you with
some evidence. Thank you. And as we have a collective experience of
over a century of corps horn playing (one guy with a degree in horn,
although Doug would probably be the first to down such credentials as
proof of anything), let's see what we can do... I also would suggest
other frenchies and frenchie-fans out there to support anyone who might
come out of the woodwork to help us improve on what we know of the
instrument and what it can do so that further drum & bugle corps
generations can know the joy of doing what we do, in a continuous corps
tradition!
Catherine
There could have been many reasons - lack of teaching expertise, narrow
viewpoints, honest differences of opinion and experiences...
Here's the deal... Try out stuff. Look to the talents of the people
in front of you and try to go "where no one has gone before". Try to
figure out how to accomplish things and ask people who have succeeded.
Think outside the box (no pun intended). What I just found out is a
lot of people want to get rid of horns for a lot of reasons that we
disagree with. And since few (if any) manufacturers will be continuing
to make G french horn bugles... We'd better be getting busy if we
believe in what we have done, do and hope to continue doing.
Much of the reason I write on RAMD is simply to plant seeds with people
who are open to brainstorming. The facts are that even in the tick
days, no one suggested getting rid of horns (publicly) activity-wide.
They were beasts then and beasts now (thanks Terri). But we feel that
1) the positives outweigh the negatives, and 2) if taught correctly,
the marching-mouthpiece issue is a negligible consideration.
These threads have already confirmed for me that there are still many
musicians out there who agree that the french horn voice is something
we should preserve if we can, and that those who say otherwise... They
have a right to their opinion, as we do to ours. But then to attempt
to implement that opinion by devaluing scores to corps who use french
horns and automatically prejudge frenchies as non-competitive... I
believe such is unfair, short-sighted and rewards those who cannot and
don't want to learn how to better teach both french horn and marching
technique - and convince people without discussion that one side knows
better than the other.
Obviously, the jury is still out on this one. Now that we know we are
battling the issue and what we are up against, let's see if we can rise
to the challenge.
Once again, Black Saddle, anyone?
Dan Scerpella
Muchachos, either 73 or 74 when they played Coplands Hoedown. Thats a
technique I saw used with great effectiveness by SCV as well in 72 and 73. That
is, take the hardest part you have, have the section march right up to the
front of the field, and execute the hell out of it. Same thing with St Andrews
Triple Tonguing features in 72 and 73.
Catherine
"Scott Williams" <swill...@uswest.net> wrote:
> "Catherine" <cather...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8tr031$cst$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <3A00EF7B...@prodigy.net>,
> > JEFFMI...@prodigy.net wrote:
> > > ...
> > > The mellophone was easier to control and reduce the tick factor.
> >
> > Well, I don't agree with that one. "[insert mellophone joke here]"
> >
>
> Disagree all you want Catherine, He's right!! I've played Soprano,
> Mello and Frenchy. All in highly competitive DC and the Frenchy
> SUCKED for control.
So it generally requires more work from french horn players than some
other horns do? I don't have a problem with that. I know you're not
arguing that we should water things down or eliminate things that are
difficult. Further, the fact of the "close partials" is one of the
POSITIVE things about the french horn - nothing like some french horn
rips to add to some of the greatest drum & bugle corps music! Further,
once one develops the additional control, the precision necessary, the
phrases that one can play over a range with little effort (very
intuitive interpretation of some of the things I and others do).
It's a fun, beautiful instrument for those of us who have spent years
(although I remember a couple of 13-year olds who wailed with merely
one year of experience...). The main area of disagreement in this
discussion, for me, is the difference in experiences hearing and
playing the horn. Some of us had very encouraging, positive teachers
who didn't place a lot of foregone conclusions in our heads. Many of
us were corps-only experience horn playing types. It does not follow
logically that that must mean we are less musical or in tune that band
french horn - ask someone who has heard me (and other players) about my
ear (relative pitch yes; absolute pitch no) and intonation/lipping.
Perception and one's environment can create totally different results.
And once again, thanks for the challenge!
Dan Scerpella
>We were direct competitors. How's that for irony? :-)
>
>Sharon
>
>
>
Dan Scerpella
>bugle on ebay, here's the auction:
>
Big deal, we have 6 of them
Dan Scerpella
>HS marching band. It sounded like a French Horn but played like a Mello and
>used a horn mouthpiece, not a cornet or trumpet shank. I don't remember who
>even made the thing. It was called a Frumpet. It was in F and looked like
>a huge trumpet with a bell flare that went all the way back to the opposite
>side of the horn. The partials were closely spaced like a real horn, but it
>was much easier to control and was a million times better than a DC G
>frenchy bugle! And as a former Horn player, I DO at least agree that the
>mouthpiece wasn't that big a deal with the horn. As if they all come in one
>size? You can get wider rimmed MP's for the horn. I had to because I was
>to make the switch.
>--
I played in a college marching band in the late 70s which had a 12 person
frumpet section. While they did seem to be easier to control and lacked the
signature fracking problem, you couldnt hear them for shit. And as such they
contributed very little to the tonal palette.
Catherine
dans...@aol.com (Dan Scerpella) wrote:
> >For anyone who is interested, I just saw a 2-valve DEG French horn
> >bugle on ebay, here's the auction:
> >
>
It's a stubby, too. Better than no french horn, though...
Looking forward to checking a few of those out, as well as finding
players for them (if you're game?).
-- Catherine
Michael E. Schmidt
----------
In article <tCLM5.1808$qq1.3...@news.uswest.net>, "Scott Williams"
<swill...@uswest.net> wrote:
> My answer to the whole Frenchy question is very simple. I never heard a
> great frenchy line.
How about :
Madison, late 70's to mid 80's.
Aren't you glad Ray played Ice Castles on the french horn bugle vs. the
mellophone bugle !
Spirit, 78-82
GuardsmEn, 78-80 or so...
to name only a few ...
Schmidt*
Catherine
dans...@aol.com (Dan Scerpella) wrote:
> Some of the most bodacious in yer face horn playing I can remember
> was in the Muchachos, either 73 or 74 when they played Coplands
> Hoedown. Thats a technique I saw used with great effectiveness by
> SCV as well in 72 and 73. That is, take the hardest part you have,
> have the section march right up to the front of the field, and
> execute the hell out of it.
Doug is always exhorting us to wail and push, and we lament the fact
that nearly all "modern" drills don't allow us to stand together and do
just that (Doug's been marching corps since the mid-50's almost
continuously - a way rare accomplishment).
We must talk further about such things...
Sharcast2
>>If I recall you marched Madison in 78 right?
>>We were direct competitors. How's that for irony? :-)
>>
>>Sharon
>>
>>
>>
>And I beat you then every time didnt I? ;-}
>
Yes you did. (Did is the operative word here.) Your point?
Too bad you didn't stick around.. cause we beat Madison the next year... (not
at finals, just did. One of the highlights of my marching career.)
Sharon
(We could just go round and round. Aren't you getting tired yet?)
Catherine
Daniel O'Neal <kon...@wvnvm.wvnet.edu> wrote:
> [...]
> And Catherine, if modern color guards are so despicable, why is WGI
> doing so well? Heck, WGI is actually growing, isn't it? ... perhaps
> the only segment of the marching or "pagentry" community that is.
I will be getting back into winter guard stuff this season; it's been a
while. But in answer to your question... Not all competing guards are
corps guards, are they? The answer then becomes... compare the
relative numbers of band (school and community) drill teams, baton
twirlers and cheerleaders and the number of corps with vital guards in
the old days to today's system.
Still look healthy?
Dan Scerpella
A thought occurs to me..Are you one of the darn Massachusetts liberals? Ya
know, my mother is the product of a blue collar Irish family in North Quincy,
and somehow she stayed away from the dark side! (Democratic party)
Sharcast2
Went to a WGI sponsored show this past year.. Won't be back again any time
soon.
In my opinion.. It was awful. The winning guard had a rifle (1 rifler) feature
at the beginning of the show that did three tosses and dropped all three. (But
his smile was really really BIG!) As for drill? There was no drill.. Run from
spot to spot. No legible drill. No legible equipment work. No legible
anything. And they were the best of the best.
I don't want things to go backwards.. I really don't. What I do want is some
excellence. How can a winning colorguard (and this was no fluke.. they were
consistently winning) have that much sloppiness? Sloppy was the word of the
day at that show. Nothing stood out as excellent. Nothing. I was sorely
disappointed..
Sigh...
Sharon
Sharcast2
>>>From: dans24103
>>
>>>>If I recall you marched Madison in 78 right?
>>>>We were direct competitors. How's that for irony? :-)
>>>>
>>>>Sharon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>And I beat you then every time didnt I? ;-}
>>>
>>
>>
>>Yes you did. (Did is the operative word here.) Your point?
>>
>>Too bad you didn't stick around.. cause we beat Madison the next year...
>(not
>>at finals, just did. One of the highlights of my marching career.)
>>
>>Sharon
>>
>>(We could just go round and round. Aren't you getting tired yet?)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Well my wife say I can go all night!.................ok maybe she doesnt
>
>
>A thought occurs to me..Are you one of the darn Massachusetts liberals? Ya
>know, my mother is the product of a blue collar Irish family in North Quincy,
>and somehow she stayed away from the dark side! (Democratic party)
>
Well,
I was born in MA. But was raised in NH. By a die hard (ex military) republican
Dad and I'm not sure about Mom. Since she was a working mother she could have
been democrat (But agreed with Dad to keep the peace and then voted how she
wanted!)
I was raised to be an independent person. My mom had a whole lot to do with
that. Then again, Dad instilled some very conservative values in me. Who am I
kidding.. I had GREAT parents. I am one of the lucky ones.
Born in MA (Fort Devens), raised in NH (home of the Nashua Spartans.. my
beginnings in drum corps) and now living in the state of RI (Quiet Ron!).
Married with a child. Also very Irish. Almost 100% Could be why I'm so
mouthy! Ha!
Sharon
Scott Williams
Dan Scerpella wrote in message
<20001104173422...@ng-mh1.aol.com>...
>I played in a college marching band in the late 70s which had a 12 person
>frumpet section. While they did seem to be easier to control and lacked
the
>signature fracking problem, you couldnt hear them for shit. And as such
they
>contributed very little to the tonal palette.
True, they didn't project all that great. SO maybe instead of 12-14 mellos
they would march 4 mellos and 14 Frumpets and lose some sopranos (it's top
heavy enough!) Can you imagine 20 middle horns in a hornline? That would
be awesome!! and it would have the french horn sound back in the line.
Scott Williams
Dan Scerpella
>mouthy! Ha!
>
>Sharon
>
>
1/2 Irish by way of Cty Cork,...O"Driscolls, Healys, Sullivans, Burkes
Any common ancestry?
Sharcast2
>>Married with a child. Also very Irish. Almost 100% Could be why I'm so
>>mouthy! Ha!
>>
>>Sharon
>>
>>
>1/2 Peruvian
>
>1/2 Irish by way of Cty Cork,...O"Driscolls, Healys, Sullivans, Burkes
>
>Any common ancestry?
>
County Cork sounds very familiar.. family name started out to be O'Cashin..
Shortened to Cashin when they came to the states..
Have heard of only a few Cashins in my time.. One from NY and one from CA.
That's about it..
Sharon
frenc...@my-deja.com
> Just because I wasn't born until '71 and didn't march until '86 ,
I'm
> probably older than half the people who post here on RAMD (I'm not
sure on
> this, but from what I've seen, most aged out after I did). I do
speak from
> some experience. I played French horn for 6 years including a double
Major
> in College on Trumpet and Horn. I played Frenchy in DC for 1 year and
> decided it was the worst brass instrument EVER designed in the
history of
> the world, well at least within the past 50 years. Hey, maybe they
were
> great french horn lines for what they were, but compared to the rest
of the
> hornline? NOT! I NEVER heard anything good coming out of a frenchy
when it
> was being played loudly or moving with much speed, and I've listened
to
> several recordings from the 50's and 60's. Maybe they were great at
the
> time, but listening to it now just makes my teeth grate. I'm saying
this as
> a horn player. The instrument sucked. Yes something needs to fill
in the
> "color" missing now with such top and bottom heavy hornlines. and
Mello just
> isn't dark enough sometimes, but the last time I heard a great
frenchy was
> back in '88 SCV and he was standing still and except for finals , he
chowed
> it every time that I heard him!! We had great players in '92, but the
> instrument itself didn't lend itself to marching, especially with the
> requirements these days of quick drill movement. No more concert
piece for
> the horns to get it together and blast away. I don't mean offense to
anyone
> with all this, but I am speaking from opinion and from my experience
of what
> I've seen, heard, and played.
> --
> Scott W. Williams
> '92 SCV
> '90 VK
> '86-'89 RMM
>
So after you found out you couldn't be 1 of the elite group of people
that can play a French Horn what did you try next??? (I would have
given up long before 6 yrs. and not even wasted 1 yr on it in DC)
Just curious, Gary
kno...@rootcom.net
first 2 years in HS marching band. It sounded like a French Horn
but played like a Mello and used a horn mouthpiece, not a cornet or
trumpet shank. I don't remember who even made the thing. It was
called a Frumpet. It was in F and looked like a huge trumpet with a
bell flare that went all the way back to the opposite side of the
horn. The partials were closely spaced like a real horn, but it was
much easier to control and was a million times better than a DC G
frenchy bugle!"
The "frumpet" was originally a Getzen concoction, undoubtedly inspired
by their FH bugles. It utilized the same concert horn-based components
and added a valve cluster from their trumpet tooling. (I might question
your memories of its playability.)
Getzen was the major producer of bugles in the early and mid-sixties.
They began making 8" bell french horns under the Getzen Deluxe and
Elkhorn labels, identical except for price. By 1963 they had added
a "concert" model, with a thinner gauge bell. All these things cracked
on As, Ds, and high Gs when equipped with rotaries, so most corps opted
for a slide configuration to obtain approximate chromatics.
Late in the 60s they must have lost access to the FH tooling, as they
were building the Titleist FH bugle with an antique trombone bell! They
may also have applied this technique to their "300 series" frumpet. If
so, such a horn would not have had a bell ferrule, the bell being a
single component incorporating the bell bow.
Meanwhile, the stubby Smiths were grabbing the market, to be shortly
eclipsed by the Olds models.
kno...@rootcom.net
valve FH. Bugle manufacturers have made in tune French Horns, and could
again, if anyone wanted them."
The K-60 was a very playable horn. Originally built at the Anaheim CA
Benge factory (black case), production was transferred to the King
facility in Eastlake OH (maroon case). While DEG was agressively
marketing their corps products, King became downright reclusive and
ornery and faded from the marketplace in the mid-80s. Used Kings
continue to be the moust sought-after bugles from the pre-3valve era.
But both the King and DEG offerings had a flaw that contributed heavily
to the near-demise of the FH bugle. A smallthroat bell was apparently
the only component they had available. These horns just didn't have the
power and projection of their Olds predecessors. They were smothered in
the ensemble by growing sections of baritones, euphoniums, and
mellophones.
Terri Dittrich
And you're down, Scott. Drop and give me twenty!
-Terri
<frenc...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8u2kho$f0k$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Terri Dittrich
drumline ones too.
-Terri
"Catherine" <cather...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8u2dcs$9mk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Catherine
frenc...@my-deja.com wrote:
> So after you found out you couldn't be 1 of the elite group of people
> that can play a French Horn what did you try next??? (I would have
> given up long before 6 yrs. and not even wasted 1 yr on it in DC)
>
> Just curious, Gary
Tee-hee!
-- C
Catherine
"Terri Dittrich" <terri...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Wait til you see a guard show! That will be a shock. And the winter
> drumline ones too.
You're right about that. It's been twenty years. I hope I won't feel
as Sharon does, as she named MANY of the things that upset me about
corps shows.
Also, her use of the term "excellence"... Lots of resonances for me on
that one.
There are, of course, interesting things being done with movement,
design and such, and I will be looking at those as well as consulting
with colleagues over the next few months. Interesting...
LEG at cba
>They began making 8" bell french horns under the Getzen Deluxe and
>Elkhorn labels, identical except for price. By 1963 they had added
>a "concert" model, with a thinner gauge bell. All these things cracked
>on As, Ds, and high Gs when equipped with rotaries, so most corps opted
>for a slide configuration to obtain approximate chromatics.
Ken, FWIW, I'm quite surprised at the number of old timers who don't remember
Getzen's "Concert" model french horn bugle. Nice horns, but the bells were too
thin. If you looked at them wrong, they would crinkle. Our little corps had 4
of them. We gave up on trying maintain the bells. When Getzen started
producing the Titleist series, we expected a decent horn - boy, did we get a
surprise.
Larry "G"
LEG at cba
>> >bugle on ebay, here's the auction:
>> >
>>
>> Big deal, we have 6 of them
>
>It's a stubby, too. Better than no french horn, though...
Believe me, the DEGs are real beasts. I know, I'm trying to tame one right
now.
Larry "G"
Terri Dittrich
My husband didn't practice at all and took second in I and E's in '76.
-Terri
"Scott Williams" <swill...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:Q1jN5.827$qz2.1...@news.uswest.net...
>
> frenc...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8u2kho$f0k$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >So after you found out you couldn't be 1 of the elite group of people
> >that can play a French Horn what did you try next??? (I would have
> >given up long before 6 yrs. and not even wasted 1 yr on it in DC)
> >
> >Just curious, Gary
>
> Actually as Principal Horn all through High School and in the college
> Symphony, Wind ensemble and Brass Choir, I WAS the elite. I just decided
to
> concentrate on 1 instrument, I chose Trumpet because it was more fun to
> play, even though I was a better horn player. I wouldn't have attempted
the
> double major if I couldn't do it. Which I could, I just chose not to.
> Maybe after playing a real instrument (a Conn 8D) the Drum Corps Frenchy
> failed miserably to comparison. So stuff that Gary!
>
> Scott Williams
> '92 SCV 2nd place I&E (10 minutes practice)
> '90 VK 3rd place I&E (30 minutes practice)
> '86-'89 RMM
>
>
>
Terri Dittrich
sarcastic.
I suppose that was wrong of me.
Anyway, I think we should just let it be. I am not the greatest french horn
player on the planet but I'm not worst. I enjoy the horn, did when I was in
band for 10 years and drum corps for seven. I tried to overcome the
obstacles of the bugle and loved the challenge.
-Terri
"Scott Williams" <swill...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:SjjN5.838$qz2.2...@news.uswest.net...
>
> Terri Dittrich wrote in message ...
> >Oh I am impressed.
> >
> >My husband didn't practice at all and took second in I and E's in '76.
> >
> >-Terri
>
> Was this on Frenchy or Mello? Plus, that was also 14 years before I
> competed, so there really is no comparison. So, did he just go in and
> improv? or was it something he'd played at another time and just decided
to
> play it for competition? That would make a difference between what he did
> and what I did. I wrote my piece on the bus as we were going to the
> competition. I got off the bus and had 20 minutes before I went in front
of
> the judge, So I warmed up then played through what I had written over the
> previous hour and then went to the judge. I actually got a penalty for
> going OT. I wrote TOO much solo. heh. Surprised me!!!!
>
> Scott Williams
>
>
>
Terri Dittrich
"sedy" <se...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:fbjb0tonm47of1o8v...@4ax.com...
> Although I have absolutely no complaint with the list of arrangers
> below, I must remind Dan to add the name of "Bergdoll" to his list.
>
>
> On 03 Nov 2000 14:53:31 GMT, dasn...@aol.com (DAS NorCal) wrote:
>
> >But - to meet the challenge of playing an instrument pitched one step
higher
> >than your concert instrument; to put air through an instrument the same
length
> >as a Baritone, but with a fraction of the bore diameter; to play
everything "up
> >an octave" in relation to your overtone series; to march with high mark
time
> >while balancing a knife edge of a mouthpiece on your chops; and to play
French
> >Horn parts written by the greats like: Royer, Crawford, Ott, Baumgard,
Duffy
> >and the great Kenny Norman - there is nothing like it in all of Drum
Corps!
How'd I miss this?
Anyway, when Kenny came to Guardsmen practice in '78, I said, Hey, He IS the
Kilties.
Just something to think about. :-)
-Terri
Scott Williams
>that can play a French Horn what did you try next??? (I would have
>given up long before 6 yrs. and not even wasted 1 yr on it in DC)
>
>Just curious, Gary
Actually as Principal Horn all through High School and in the college