Madison: Booing then OVATION
whitney densmore s
J. wrote:
> "...New for the Boo thread: What do ya'll think of Madison getting booed?
> When they announced the score, the booing occurred... followed by a
> standing ovation that nearly drowned out the announcement of third
> place..."
Well J., the discussions regarding booing on this newsgroup have had an
impact on my actions.
When Madison was announced in fourth place at finals in Buffalo, I was
booing along with the rest of the crowd. But then, I didn't want the
Scouts to think that we were booing "them", but the placement.
So, when the booing mellowed a bit, I stood up and yelled "ALL-RIGHT
MADISON", and suddenly tens of thousands of people agreed and a mass
standing ovation took place.
It was an awesome experience, just like the 1995 Madison Scouts.
Whitney Densmore (aka Harper and Mathias)
Blue Devils '81 & '82
SCV '77, '78 & '79
Jay R Wise
whitney densmore s <wden...@mach1.wlu.ca> wrote:
>
>J. wrote:
>> "...New for the Boo thread: What do ya'll think of Madison getting booed?
>> When they announced the score, the booing occurred... followed by a
>> standing ovation that nearly drowned out the announcement of third
>> place..."
>
>Well J., the discussions regarding booing on this newsgroup have had an
>impact on my actions.
>
>So, when the booing mellowed a bit, I stood up and yelled "ALL-RIGHT
>MADISON", and suddenly tens of thousands of people agreed and a mass
>standing ovation took place.
>
>It was an awesome experience, just like the 1995 Madison Scouts.
>
>Whitney Densmore (aka Harper and Mathias)
Shucks... I thought *I* started that ovation... :)
Whitney... I did the exact same thing... and I was hoping that the ovation
would last another couple of minutes!
J.
It was just easier to do the ovation than go "Booooooo! I'm booing the
judges... booooooo!"
Ken Kerr
>J. wrote:
>> "...New for the Boo thread: What do ya'll think of Madison getting booed?
>> When they announced the score, the booing occurred... followed by a
>> standing ovation that nearly drowned out the announcement of third
>> place..."
>Well J., the discussions regarding booing on this newsgroup have had an
>impact on my actions.
>
>When Madison was announced in fourth place at finals in Buffalo, I was
>booing along with the rest of the crowd. But then, I didn't want the
>Scouts to think that we were booing "them", but the placement.
>So, when the booing mellowed a bit, I stood up and yelled "ALL-RIGHT
>MADISON", and suddenly tens of thousands of people agreed and a mass
>standing ovation took place.
>It was an awesome experience, just like the 1995 Madison Scouts.
>Whitney Densmore (aka Harper and Mathias)
>Blue Devils '81 & '82
>SCV '77, '78 & '79
This is kind of a silly thread isn't it??? After the response that
they got for thir performance (couldn't even hear the last minute of
the show over the cheering!!!), I would think that the reason for the
booing at retreat would be apparent to any member of the Scouts on
that field.
Ken Kerr
Daniel Kelley
>J. wrote:
>>> "...New for the Boo thread: What do ya'll think of Madison getting
booed?
>>> When they announced the score, the booing occurred... followed by a
>>> standing ovation that nearly drowned out the announcement of third
>>> place..."
>>
>>Well J., the discussions regarding booing on this newsgroup have had
an>>impact on my actions.
>>
>>So, when the booing mellowed a bit, I stood up and yelled "ALL-RIGHT
>>MADISON", and suddenly tens of thousands of people agreed and a mass
>>standing ovation took place.
Let me clarify this and comment on that booing thread:
I've seen and played in many shows over the years. In fact, I don't
remember where all I've played and wonder why some places look familiar
when I'm travelling...
When at a show and a score is obviously crappy/skewed with what you
just observed, first you boo the score. Then you yell like hell for
the corps that just received said screws by said judges.
This is not new. It's been going on since probably the first show ever
done.
It is meant, when done properly, to accentuate the fact to said corps
that they just got hosed and should have won/placed higher. It is
meant to boost their egos for the bus ride and next show. It is meant
to be loud confirmation to let them know they did indeed do a better
show than they got credit for by said judges.
And we all know that judging is and always was absolutely fair and
correct. So why the need for this "rude" booing?
So for us now buying tickets instead of sweating on the field, let it
be known that we will boo when we want. The offended corps needs to
learn the etiquette of audiences and be flattered rather than offended.
Unless of course you're the corps that scored above the corps receiving
the crowd's glaring approval. That doesn't mean you were bad, it just
means the crowd feels the "boo-ee" was better today.
Cheers 'til next year.
P. Kelley, who's not above shouting and booing-heck, I can even whistle
And I don't need to dut, dut, dut to do it in synch!
Rob v. L. S.
> >So, when the booing mellowed a bit, I stood up and yelled "ALL-RIGHT
> >MADISON", and suddenly tens of thousands of people agreed and a mass
> >standing ovation took place.
> >
> >It was an awesome experience, just like the 1995 Madison Scouts.
> >
> >Whitney Densmore (aka Harper and Mathias)
>
> Shucks... I thought *I* started that ovation... :)
>
> Whitney... I did the exact same thing... and I was hoping that the ovation
> would last another couple of minutes!"
*snip*
RIGHT ON!!!! Go guys (and gals)!!!!!!
*cheer*
=Rob=
OMB - cymbals 94
snare 95
whitney densmore s
: Shucks... I thought *I* started that ovation... :)
You did, J. It was you, me, and ten thousand other people who started it.
: Whitney... I did the exact same thing... and I was hoping that the ovation
: would last another couple of minutes!
I was hoping that the judges would say, "Oh no! Maybe we made a
mistake! Tell the announcer to hold on for a minute while we switch
things around".
--
Whitney Densmore (aka Harper and Mathias)
BARRY N. YORK
> wden...@mach1.wlu.ca (whitney densmore s) wrote:
>
>
>>> "...New for the Boo thread: What do ya'll think of Madison getting booed?
>>> When they announced the score, the booing occurred... followed by a
>>> standing ovation that nearly drowned out the announcement of third
>>> place..."
>
>>Well J., the discussions regarding booing on this newsgroup have had an
>>impact on my actions.
>>
>>booing along with the rest of the crowd. But then, I didn't want the
>>Scouts to think that we were booing "them", but the placement.
>
>>MADISON", and suddenly tens of thousands of people agreed and a mass
>>standing ovation took place.
>
>>It was an awesome experience, just like the 1995 Madison Scouts.
>
>>Blue Devils '81 & '82
>>SCV '77, '78 & '79
>
> they got for thir performance (couldn't even hear the last minute of
> the show over the cheering!!!), I would think that the reason for the
> booing at retreat would be apparent to any member of the Scouts on
> that field.
>
> Ken Kerr
Yes, but the 3 corps ahead of them should be whining like Star members
did when the booing occured in their presence. *ha*
>
>
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Barry N. York
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Non Nobis
Could it be Barry being beaten by STAR every year he marched.
Sniff (tear) sniff
Hullett
Kent Shook
>MADISON", and suddenly tens of thousands of people agreed and a mass
>standing ovation took place.
>
>It was an awesome experience, just like the 1995 Madison Scouts.
Yes it was... A big thank you (and you're welcome too, I guess!) to the crowd
in Buffalo. I can't imagine a better end to the season than the crowd on their
feet for more than the last minute of the show, and showing us whose side they
were on at retreat. Cavies, you can have those rings, and enjoy 'em... And
congrats on your best show in quite a while!
Later,
Kent Shook
Madison '91-'95
Baritone
Jay R Wise
In article <8177cb$e338...@news.intellution.com>, <> wrote:
>
>Barry,
>
>When are you going to come clean and admit to the readers of this
>group that your constant whining and knocking of Star stems from the
>fact that you were cut when you tried out there?
>
Sorry, but Barry was not cut by Star, and if they would have, it would have
been foolish. Barry was part of the Bluecoats sop lines in '89 and '90 and
then went on to make Scouts line in '92 (?). Not dissing Star, but they
haven't exactly been known for "great" soprano lines and in the years Barry
marched, both of his corps had critically acclaimed sop lines.
Jay Wise
Bluecoats
Jay R Wise
>jrw...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jay R Wise) wrote:
>
>>I'll bat for Barry on this one...
>
>>Sorry, but Barry was not cut by Star, and if they would have, it would have
>>been foolish. Barry was part of the Bluecoats sop lines in '89 and '90 and
>>then went on to make Scouts line in '92 (?). Not dissing Star, but they
>>haven't exactly been known for "great" soprano lines and in the years Barry
>>marched, both of his corps had critically acclaimed sop lines.
>
>>Jay Wise
>>Bluecoats
>
>Oh, yeah, Star's hornline was never quite up to the standards of the
>Bluecoats. Not to mention their shabby playing in '92, as compared to
>the wonderful, tecnique rich Scouts.
No, please don't try to change my words around... please read carefully what
was said and try not imply what was not implied!
To re-iterate... Star didn't exactly have a "stellar" soprano line in 1992,
albeit their horn line was great. No where did I say who was better than who
(whom, whatever)... When you list "great" soprano lines of the '90s, I've
never heard Star mentioned, but I have Bluecoats ('90/'91) and Madison (oft).
I never said Star didn't have a great horn line... read, don't infer!
J.
Non Nobis
especially Don Van Doren, would tell you to forget exams and worry only
about any Drum Corps is ludicrous.
To bring this whole thing to halt let me just say...
That if you couldn't have run with the big dogs, you should have stayed on
the porch.
And whoever is curious about our sop, mello, etc.. pop in the CD of 91,
listen to Pines (the 2nd production) then jump back on line and give me a
jingle.
Just for giggles throw 92 or 93 in as well. Whenever you hear a hole in
the sound just let me know...
And for the Coups de Grace any questions you have about our hornline from
the 90's... well you can file them under the 3 Jim Ott High Brass awards
at the Corps Hall.
Bob Hullett
STAR 89-92
Drum Major 91-92
Staff 93-94
BARRY N. YORK
> I'll bat for Barry on this one...
>
>>
>>Barry,
>>
>>When are you going to come clean and admit to the readers of this
>>group that your constant whining and knocking of Star stems from the
>>fact that you were cut when you tried out there?
>>
>
> been foolish. Barry was part of the Bluecoats sop lines in '89 and '90 and
> then went on to make Scouts line in '92 (?). Not dissing Star, but they
> haven't exactly been known for "great" soprano lines and in the years Barry
> marched, both of his corps had critically acclaimed sop lines.
>
> Jay Wise
> Bluecoats
I appreciate that Jay, but for the record... I never got cut by
Star. I did audition for Star for the 1992 season and left after the January
camp for several reasons; one was for school and Star's unwillingness
to let me take my college finals that year. Also for the record, I made
Star's cut from the large group to the group in "the other room" with no
problem. The music was fun and all, but school was my priority.
I ended up at Madison in 1992, and they let me finish my college exams
prior to reporting.
Also, for the record, I think Star "cuts" people after they quit
showing up. This may be where the narrow-sighted individual who keeps
saying this gets his info.
Oh well, if that is how this person wants to see it, then I should
thank Star for doing so.
BARRY N. YORK
> I'll bat for Barry on this one...
>
> In article <8177cb$e338...@news.intellution.com>, <> wrote:
>>
>>Barry,
>>
>>When are you going to come clean and admit to the readers of this
>>group that your constant whining and knocking of Star stems from the
>>fact that you were cut when you tried out there?
>>
>
> Sorry, but Barry was not cut by Star, and if they would have, it would have
> been foolish. Barry was part of the Bluecoats sop lines in '89 and '90 and
> then went on to make Scouts line in '92 (?). Not dissing Star, but they
> haven't exactly been known for "great" soprano lines and in the years Barry
> marched, both of his corps had critically acclaimed sop lines.
>
> Jay Wise
> Bluecoats
I only knock down if they are over-inflated. Like I have never knocked
the corps(pl) that I did march? Of course I have when there is something
to say. You see, I can maintain my integrity while supporting my former
units without feeling bad. I do not blindly follow a torch just because
it has my name on it.
Bruce York (Sverdrup)
: Barry,
: When are you going to come clean and admit to the readers of this
: group that your constant whining and knocking of Star stems from the
: fact that you were cut when you tried out there?
: > Yes, but the 3 corps ahead of them should be whining like Star members
: >did when the booing occured in their presence. *ha*
: >>
: >>
: >--
: >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: >Barry N. York
: >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I had to laugh at this one. Pretty brave. No signature and no sign-on.
--
Bruce A. York
by...@mbvlab.wpafb.af.mil
(signature intact)
'... an eagle always flies alone'
Jeff Duncan
>In article <41g85b$2...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, jrw...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jay R Wise) writes:
>> I'll bat for Barry on this one...
>>
>>>
>>>Barry,
>>>
>>>When are you going to come clean and admit to the readers of this
>>>group that your constant whining and knocking of Star stems from the
>>>fact that you were cut when you tried out there?
>>>
>>
>> been foolish. Barry was part of the Bluecoats sop lines in '89 and '90 and
>> then went on to make Scouts line in '92 (?). Not dissing Star, but they
>> haven't exactly been known for "great" soprano lines and in the years Barry
>> marched, both of his corps had critically acclaimed sop lines.
>>
>> Jay Wise
>> Bluecoats
Thats exactly what Star doesn't want. It is a team effort, and they want no
saviors or anybody that is there to further their ego. And I heard Donnie give
people grief about things but I don't think he would have a qualm about taking
finals unless you were going to miss the weekend before your finals. There were
always people on the quarter system that were coming in late when I marched. As
long as you were prepared and knew what you had to know, there wasn't any
problem. Maybe he felt you didn't know your music that well yet. I think it
would have been alright if you would have talked to him and said that you
really want to march but just can't be here for whatever time you had to be off
but that you would be there right after your finals.
Oh, and as for the soprano line not being good, that may be the case, but who
either won or tied for high brass 90-93? I rest my case. I would rather play in
a Star hornline than a Madison or Blue Devils any day.
> I appreciate that Jay, but for the record... I never got cut by
>Star. I did audition for Star for the 1992 season and left after the January
>camp for several reasons; one was for school and Star's unwillingness
>to let me take my college finals that year. Also for the record, I made
>Star's cut from the large group to the group in "the other room" with no
>problem. The music was fun and all, but school was my priority.
>I ended up at Madison in 1992, and they let me finish my college exams
>prior to reporting.
> Also, for the record, I think Star "cuts" people after they quit
>showing up. This may be where the narrow-sighted individual who keeps
>saying this gets his info.
I believe the narrow-sighted individual was the drum major, someone who knows
the info better than any other members, and no Star does not cut people after
they stop showing up. As a matter of fact, two people, a soprano and a
euphonium, both got numerous cut letters but kept coming back (in 93). Both of
them put their nose to the grindstone and stuck it out and were great members
in the end.
> Oh well, if that is how this person wants to see it, then I should
>thank Star for doing so.
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Barry N. York
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeff Duncan
Florida State University Meteorology Department
GO NOLES!
Star of Indiana Soprano 1991-93
Bruce York (Sverdrup)
: by...@nova.wright.edu (BARRY N. YORK) wrote:
: >In article <41g85b$2...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, jrw...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jay R Wise) writes:
: >> I'll bat for Barry on this one...
: >>
: >> In article <8177cb$e338...@news.intellution.com>, <> wrote:
: >>>
: >>>Barry,
: >>>
: >>>When are you going to come clean and admit to the readers of this
: >>>group that your constant whining and knocking of Star stems from the
: >>>fact that you were cut when you tried out there?
: >>>
: >>
: >> Sorry, but Barry was not cut by Star, and if they would have, it would have
: >> been foolish. Barry was part of the Bluecoats sop lines in '89 and '90 and
: >> then went on to make Scouts line in '92 (?). Not dissing Star, but they
: >> haven't exactly been known for "great" soprano lines and in the years Barry
: >> marched, both of his corps had critically acclaimed sop lines.
: >>
: >> Jay Wise
: >> Bluecoats
: Thats exactly what Star doesn't want. It is a team effort, and they want no
: saviors or anybody that is there to further their ego. And I heard Donnie give
: people grief about things but I don't think he would have a qualm about taking
: finals unless you were going to miss the weekend before your finals. There were
: always people on the quarter system that were coming in late when I marched. As
: long as you were prepared and knew what you had to know, there wasn't any
: problem. Maybe he felt you didn't know your music that well yet. I think it
: would have been alright if you would have talked to him and said that you
I always love this stuff. What you are saying is that what was said
at first to everyone, i.e. the standard line, might have been changed
if one individual went behind closed doors and discussed it. They
might have gotten a special deal or preferential treatment. That is
if you knew how to play the game. Many of the Corps does this, not
just SOI, and I hate it. They are perfectly willing to intimidate
kids into missing college or high school events if they can bluff
them into it. And then for the few who have the savviness to try and
negotiate, if the Corps staff thinks the individual has enough
talent, a special deal can be cut. I wish this wasn't how it works
but every Corps I know of does it to a small or great degree. Donnie
seemed to be on ht egreat end of the scale.
: really want to march but just can't be here for whatever time you had to be off
Richard Vincent Lamb
Bruce York, (Barry's brother) was right--no .sig and no name or address.
7-: I guess Rob Dorocke isn't the only one who clucks when it comes to
fights about "The Banned". In addition to the quality most often
considered lacking when chickens are mentioned, cleverness is also one
missing from barnyard fowl. Your message id--intellution.com--is an
almost dead giveaway that you are Karen Ruschman
(krus...@intellution.com), an ex-Bridgemen and Star alum, who I believe
was a drum major of one or both units. Anyone who pays attention to this
newsgroup should be able to recognize the domain name in your message id,
think about who posts from there, and deduce who you are. In fact, you
posted on this newsgroup on another thread (Magical Moments, I believe)
using your name *today*. This suggests that you can set your account to
either reveal or conceal your name and address. That you were so
careless as to do both within 24 hours makes your attempt at anonymity
both contemptuous and nearly useless. Be happy that people cannot finger
intellution.com (I know, I tried). Behavior such as you exhibited tempts
me very strongly to examine plan files *very* closely. What were you
afraid of, anyway--someone finding out who you were when you were
defending your old unit (by attacking one of its critics)? Even that
clueless newbie, Bob Hullett (also a Star DM), has more spine than that!
Now on to the matter at hand...
>Barry,
>
>When are you going to come clean and admit to the readers of this
>group that your constant whining and knocking of Star stems from the
>fact that you were cut when you tried out there?
>
This should go down as one of the most perfidious myths on RAMD--along
with the other great piece of net folklore involving Star, that they left
the competitive arena because the hostile fans drove them away, not
because they accepted a better offer from Canadian Brass so that they
develop their program in an environment free from competition. At least
one thing was true about the latter rumor--Star did leave competition.
*No* part of your charge against Barry is true. As both Jay Wise and
Barry York have already pointed out, Barry was not cut by Star because of
his ability--Barry had the ability. If you have been reading this
newsgroup for longer than about 3 months (about the time I first saw you
post), you'd know that Jay Wise has recounted the story of a former
Bluecoats soprano who--it was generally agreed upon by Bluecoats--had
*less* ability than Barry, but marched Star in (correct me about the
year, Jay) '91. Ability was therefore *not* an issue with Barry! Barry
*quit* Star on his own accord because he disagreed
with them on how they ordered their priorities. Read my response to Bob
Hullet for my comments on that. Barry was happy aging out with Madison,
also an elite drum corps. Care to ask any Scouts who marched with Barry
(some of them read this newsgroup) about his attitude and ability?
The second falsehood in this piece of fiction is that Barry was bitter
about this experience. No. Barry has been posting since he aged out in
'92, first on alt.drumcorps and them here on RAMD. I've been posting and
reading here since day 1 of both alt.drumcorps and RAMD and I've been
following Barry the entire time. He has stated that he enjoyed '90, '91,
and even '92 Star. He didn't like the '93 *show*, but he had nothing
critical to say about either the *organization* or its *members* until
*after* the '93 season, when Chris Putnam, who had been a pleasant and
well-liked person before he joined Star, came back from tour and
proceeded to alienate most of the readers (When Jay Wise writes about
Star members posting "Screw the audience--we hate them" he's referring
primarily to Chris). Instead of other Star members telling him to mind
his manners, they joined in! Many people objected to this as a sign of a
serious flaw in the culture of the organization. Barry happens to be the
most persistent, but he's not alone.
So, no, Barry was not cut. He quit and joined an organization that had
priorities more in line with his. He was not bitter about leaving,
but (if I read him correctly) became disgusted with the behavior of Star
members on this newsgroup, more than a year after aging out. Now, are
you and other members and alumni of "The Banned" going to trot out that
canard again?
Good Day!
Richard "Vince" Lamb
Drew McPheeters
|> it. The real issue is that you exemplify what so many people on this
|> newsgroup have found objectionable about Star of Indiana members--they
|> have a bunker mentality and cannot tolerate any criticism of their unit,
|> no matter how intelligent. At least you have more gumption than another
|> ex-Star DM by using your name and posting your .sig.
Actually, you shouldn't stereotype in this one either. There are a lot of
other corps members on here (Troopers, BlueCoats, Cadets, Phantom, etc)
and fans which exhibit the so called 'bunker mentality' you mention.
What I want to know is why it is Okay for other groups to respond to the
criticism of foes, but the Star folk are seen as being somewhat less
mature or less inteligent when they respond.
I saw plenty of immaturity over the summer in the 'Cadets don't have to
March' thread, the 'Hidden Licks: Cavie Bashing' thread, the 'Trooper
incident' thread and many others. That's a shame, cause there really is
quite a lot of good things to discuss and share.
Maybe we shouldn't be so down on the Buffalo press for not giving any
media coverage since the kids weren't in trouble or causing trouble.
After all, this newsgroup exist's as much for airing dirty laundry in
public, than it does for anything else.
Your in sorrow :(
Drew B. McPheeters
Bruce York (Sverdrup)
his last comments. And I whole heartedly agree. I have already gone on
record as to what years I liked SOI and what years I didn't. But as a
Drum Corps fan and someone who supports Youth activities in general.
I would like to echo the statements below in spirit since I do not
personally know many people part of the SOI organization.
: Not speaking on behalf of any organization...
: Disclaimer: I apologize to members of Star of Indiana who are NOT so
: egotistical about their achievements... especially the great alumni my
: wife and I met on our (separate) all-star trips and at the BT gig in
: Canton in 1994.
Non Nobis
Are you upset with me?
Bobby
(there is that better for you)
Non Nobis
Have you been talking to Vince?
You both sound so argry...
Let me know if I can help...
Non Nobis
Thank you for stating what I couldn't. You see it is a Catch 22, If I
don't reply then something wrong or misunderstood goes untouched. If I do
reply, suddenly I'm down in the "bunker".
In the same aspect, everyone puts their little thing after their name:
i.e. One of the world's... An eagle... and so on...
nothing is said, but when I put mine down, suddenly I'm the biggest
ego-maniac to walk the face of the earth. Ask those who know me...WELL.
Again thanks Drew,
Jay R Wise
Non Nobis <nonn...@aol.com> wrote:
>As I just told Barry over e-mail, to suggest that any instructor,
>especially Don Van Doren, would tell you to forget exams and worry only
>about any Drum Corps is ludicrous.
>
>To bring this whole thing to halt let me just say...
>
>That if you couldn't have run with the big dogs, you should have stayed on
>the porch.
Psst... Bobby, he didn't get cut... he could run with big dogs, and did... it
just wasn't with your kennel. Ohh... And we both know a certain Mello player
from 1991 who got cut from an 11th place corps' horn line.... and then told
friends Star told this person never to play anything but long tones in '91,
then got moved to 3rd sop in '93 because they played "no notes".... but go
ahead, deny that...
>And whoever is curious about our sop, mello, etc.. pop in the CD of 91,
>listen to Pines (the 2nd production) then jump back on line and give me a
>jingle.
BTW- I love Pines, and 1991... but keep doggin' me and maybe I'll change my
mind... Some of your compadres helped turned me off the '93 CDs...
>Just for giggles throw 92 or 93 in as well. Whenever you hear a hole in
>the sound just let me know...
>
>And for the Coups de Grace any questions you have about our hornline from
>the 90's... well you can file them under the 3 Jim Ott High Brass awards
>at the Corps Hall.
Psst... you tied in one of those years!
>
>Bob Hullett
>STAR 89-92
>Drum Major 91-92 'Rj|
>Staff 93-94
(Here's why I'll get nailed for sure...)
Hey Mr. Hullett, were you roomies with Mr. Putnam?
J.
Richard Vincent Lamb
nonn...@aol.com (Bob "Blondie" Hullet using the pretentious screen name
of Non Nobis) wrote:
}As I just told Barry over e-mail, to suggest that any instructor,
}especially Don Van Doren, would tell you to forget exams and worry only
}about any Drum Corps is ludicrous.
I believe Barry when he says that a Star Staff member (I don't know if it
was Van Doren) told him exactly that. Barry also found it ludicrous, as
do I. That's why he quit. I think he did the right thing. I wouldn't
want him to turn out like you, Chris Putnam, or Rob Dorocke.
}To bring this whole thing to halt let me just say...
}
}That if you couldn't have run with the big dogs, you should have stayed on
}the porch.
You are implying that Bluecoats and Madison Scouts are not the big dogs?
Oh, that's going to earn you *lots* of agreement and friends on this
newsgroup!
<-:3
}And whoever is curious about our sop, mello, etc.. pop in the CD of 91,
}listen to Pines (the 2nd production) then jump back on line and give me a
}jingle.
You still aren't reading Jay Wise right. His point was not that Star had
a bad horn line--everyone knows that they have one of the best horn lines
*and if you had been reading any length of time YOU'D KNOW THAT WE KNOW
IT HERE!* His point was that Barry was a very good soprano player in two
horn lines *known for their excellent soprano lines*. Star's sopranos
played with good blend and were amazingly in tune. They just were not
the section best known for excellence in the high range and on
technically difficult parts--the mellophones were.
}Just for giggles throw 92 or 93 in as well. Whenever you hear a hole in
}the sound just let me know...
1993 is a bad example. The horn book was written so sparsely in places
that all many people could hear were holes with bleeps and bloobs
scattered in them. On this newsgroup, the consensus is that Blue Devils
should have won that title outright instead of tying with Star--they
played more!
}And for the Coups de Grace any questions you have about our hornline from
}the 90's... well you can file them under the 3 Jim Ott High Brass awards
}at the Corps Hall.
This is a f*cking red herring and I agree with you that we should drop
it. The real issue is that you exemplify what so many people on this
newsgroup have found objectionable about Star of Indiana members--they
have a bunker mentality and cannot tolerate any criticism of their unit,
no matter how intelligent. At least you have more gumption than another
ex-Star DM by using your name and posting your .sig.
}Bob Hullett
}STAR 89-92
}Drum Major 91-92
}Staff 93-94
^^^^^ ^^^^^
And now we know that the attitude was prevalent among the staff as well
as the members. Thanks for informing us of this.
Good Day!
Vince Lamb
TubusMax
>the sound just let me know...
>
>the 90's... well you can file them under the 3 Jim Ott High Brass awards
>at the Corps Hall.
Sorry to butt in on this thread but -- jeez this post is cocky. Are all
SOI members like you?
We all have accomplishments, but presenting them in that manner is not
cool.
You won brass, big whoop, many others have also.
Sorry man, nothing personal, but I had to respond.
Joe
Non Nobis
Joe wrote:
>>Sorry to butt in on this thread but -- jeez this post is cocky. Are all
>>SOI members like you?
>>We all have accomplishments, but presenting them in that manner is not
>>cool.
>>You won brass, big whoop, many others have also.
>>Sorry man, nothing personal, but I had to respond.
>>Joe
Jeff responded:
>Just a brief comment: IMHO, it's easy to misconstrue a single message.
>It helps to follow the entire thread to understand the motivation behind
>someone's comments. Any time criticisms are forged against an
>organization that is dear to someone's heart (which occurs all of the
time
>when discussing drum corps), you can expect a strong response. Sure, his
>statements do point out several of Star's accomplishments. I believe
that
>if many of the criticisms lodged against Star had a little depth and
>knowledge to them, then we wouldn't see as many defensive posts. (notice
>the word 'many'....which is not synonymous with the word 'all')
>Just stopping by to throw my $.02 in,
>Jeff Grant
*********************************************************
Jeff,
Thanks for responding where I couldn't...
I misunderstood the original post as an attack on our entire hornline when
it was actually just some steam that was being blown off. You're response
is exactly on the nose.
karen ruschman
>In article <8177cb$e338...@news.intellution.com>, <> wrote:
> ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^!
>Bruce York, (Barry's brother) was right--no .sig and no name or address.
>7-: I guess Rob Dorocke isn't the only one who clucks when it comes to
>fights about "The Banned". In addition to the quality most often
>considered lacking when chickens are mentioned, cleverness is also one
>missing from barnyard fowl. Your message id--intellution.com--is an
>almost dead giveaway that you are Karen Ruschman
>(krus...@intellution.com), an ex-Bridgemen and Star alum, who I believe
>was a drum major of one or both units. Anyone who pays attention to this
>newsgroup should be able to recognize the domain name in your message id,
>think about who posts from there, and deduce who you are. In fact, you
>posted on this newsgroup on another thread (Magical Moments, I believe)
>using your name *today*. This suggests that you can set your account to
>either reveal or conceal your name and address. That you were so
>careless as to do both within 24 hours makes your attempt at anonymity
>both contemptuous and nearly useless. Be happy that people cannot finger
>intellution.com (I know, I tried). Behavior such as you exhibited tempts
>me very strongly to examine plan files *very* closely. What were you
>afraid of, anyway--someone finding out who you were when you were
>defending your old unit (by attacking one of its critics)? Even that
>clueless newbie, Bob Hullett (also a Star DM), has more spine than that!
>Now on to the matter at hand...
Whew! Got back to Dodge just in time to be accused of...what? Sorry,
gutless, I seem to have a habit of signing anything I want to address
to this group. When I have the time and the patience to read and
respond to this drivel, it's with my name and address intact. Perhaps
you'd like copies of the lovely little flames I've received in the
past? No, you're apparently too busy reading great detective fiction.
Now that this whole thread has been brought to my attention (and now
that I've stopped laughing) I had to respond to this outrageous and
rather classless accusation. If you wanted to know if I wrote and
posted something, ask me. It's real simple. You're upset because of
a public posting of something you think is untrue. Imagine how I feel
about a posting of something I know to be untrue!! YIKES! I'm pretty
sure I know who sent it (lots of drum corps alums and fans here , but
only a few who follow this stuff) but that's really not my concern.
I guess I'm more concerned by who the hell you are. In your quest to
defend your friend/corpsmate/lover... whatever, and to tag me as the
"masked marauder" you seem to know my marching pedigree pretty well,
even if you know nothing about my character. Should I be checking in
my rearview mirror when I drive home this evening? Just who the heck
are you, anyway, Richard Vince Lamb?
Hey, enough is enough. I've got so many problems with stinkin' Win
'95 right now that I don't have a whole lot of time left for this
silliness. In the future, please notice I've always taken
responsibility for my actions, both the good and the bad. And if you
have a question or concern about me, just ask me. I'm really easy to
find.
Good day to you to.
Karen
Otserf
>the sound just let me know...
>
>And for the Coups de Grace any questions you have about our hornline from
>the 90's... well you can file them under the 3 Jim Ott High Brass awards
>at the Corps Hall.
>>Sorry to butt in on this thread but -- jeez this post is cocky. Are all
>>SOI members like you?
>>We all have accomplishments, but presenting them in that manner is not
>>cool.
>>You won brass, big whoop, many others have also.
>>Sorry man, nothing personal, but I had to respond.
>>Joe
Just a brief comment: IMHO, it's easy to misconstrue a single message.
Dan Lagan
: Kent Shook
: Madison '91-'95
: Baritone
Kent, congrats to you and the others..
I must say you were part of one FANTABULOUS bari line.
I wish I could shake your hand via the net...
- Maybe our modems shaking hands will suffice... :)
Danno.
William Cook
when
> it was actually just some steam that was being blown off. You're
response
> is exactly on the nose.
> Bob Hullett
> STAR 89-92
> Drum Major 91-92
> Staff 93-94
Bob - You are making great strides in becoming humble and docile;
remember, being humble and docile will make you acceptable to the bbs but
a pee-poor DM.
Bill
Non Nobis
>remember, being humble and docile will make you acceptable to the bbs but
>a pee-poor DM.
>Bill
**********************************************************
Bill...
Exactly what do you mean, how does this happen, and how does it relate to
any of my skills...
Jeff Duncan
>Jeff Duncan (duncan) wrote:
>
>: Thats exactly what Star doesn't want. It is a team effort, and they want no
>: saviors or anybody that is there to further their ego. And I heard Donnie give
>: people grief about things but I don't think he would have a qualm about taking
>: finals unless you were going to miss the weekend before your finals. There were
>: always people on the quarter system that were coming in late when I marched. As
>: long as you were prepared and knew what you had to know, there wasn't any
>: problem. Maybe he felt you didn't know your music that well yet. I think it
>: would have been alright if you would have talked to him and said that you
>
>I always love this stuff. What you are saying is that what was said
>at first to everyone, i.e. the standard line, might have been changed
>if one individual went behind closed doors and discussed it. They
>might have gotten a special deal or preferential treatment. That is
>if you knew how to play the game. Many of the Corps does this, not
>just SOI, and I hate it. They are perfectly willing to intimidate
>kids into missing college or high school events if they can bluff
>them into it. And then for the few who have the savviness to try and
>negotiate, if the Corps staff thinks the individual has enough
>talent, a special deal can be cut. I wish this wasn't how it works
>but every Corps I know of does it to a small or great degree. Donnie
>seemed to be on ht egreat end of the scale.
No, what I am saying is that if you just walk up to him and talk to him after
a rehearsal, it would probably be okay. He is just trying to make sure people
are not doing other things when they could be at camp. I think if you assure
him you will be there as soon as school gets out, and not 2 days later,
everything would have been okay. Like I said before, maybe the person in
question's desire wasn't there either.
>
>: really want to march but just can't be here for whatever time you had to be off
>: but that you would be there right after your finals.
>: Jeff Duncan
>: Florida State University Meteorology Department
>: GO NOLES!
>: Star of Indiana Soprano 1991-93
>
>
>--
>Bruce A. York
>by...@mbvlab.wpafb.af.mil
>(signature intact)
>
>'... an eagle always flies alone'
Jeff
Jeff Duncan
>Now on to the matter at hand...
>
>>Barry,
>>
>>When are you going to come clean and admit to the readers of this
>>group that your constant whining and knocking of Star stems from the
>>fact that you were cut when you tried out there?
>>
>This should go down as one of the most perfidious myths on RAMD--along
>with the other great piece of net folklore involving Star, that they left
>the competitive arena because the hostile fans drove them away, not
>because they accepted a better offer from Canadian Brass so that they
>develop their program in an environment free from competition. At least
>one thing was true about the latter rumor--Star did leave competition.
>*No* part of your charge against Barry is true. As both Jay Wise and
>Barry York have already pointed out, Barry was not cut by Star because of
>his ability--Barry had the ability.
But not the desire. Otherwise he would have tried to make arrangements instead
of just quitting.
>If you have been reading this
>newsgroup for longer than about 3 months (about the time I first saw you
>post), you'd know that Jay Wise has recounted the story of a former
>Bluecoats soprano who--it was generally agreed upon by Bluecoats--had
>*less* ability than Barry, but marched Star in (correct me about the
>year, Jay) '91. Ability was therefore *not* an issue with Barry! Barry
>*quit* Star on his own accord because he disagreed
>with them on how they ordered their priorities. Read my response to Bob
>Hullet for my comments on that. Barry was happy aging out with Madison,
>also an elite drum corps. Care to ask any Scouts who marched with Barry
>(some of them read this newsgroup) about his attitude and ability?
>
>The second falsehood in this piece of fiction is that Barry was bitter
>about this experience. No. Barry has been posting since he aged out in
>'92, first on alt.drumcorps and them here on RAMD. I've been posting and
>reading here since day 1 of both alt.drumcorps and RAMD and I've been
>following Barry the entire time. He has stated that he enjoyed '90, '91,
>and even '92 Star. He didn't like the '93 *show*, but he had nothing
>critical to say about either the *organization* or its *members*
I respect that and thank him for the support he showed.
>until
>*after* the '93 season, when Chris Putnam, who had been a pleasant and
>well-liked person before he joined Star, came back from tour and
>proceeded to alienate most of the readers (When Jay Wise writes about
>Star members posting "Screw the audience--we hate them" he's referring
>primarily to Chris). Instead of other Star members telling him to mind
>his manners, they joined in!
How many people is others? I don't think two or three people speak for the
organization.
>Many people objected to this as a sign of a
>serious flaw in the culture of the organization. Barry happens to be the
>most persistent, but he's not alone.
>
>So, no, Barry was not cut. He quit and joined an organization that had
>priorities more in line with his. He was not bitter about leaving,
>but (if I read him correctly) became disgusted with the behavior of Star
>members on this newsgroup, more than a year after aging out. Now, are
>you and other members and alumni of "The Banned" going to trot out that
>canard again?
>
>Good Day!
>
>Richard "Vince" Lamb
I am also not convinced that Star would want you to put them before your final
exams. Most of the people there are educators and know how important these
things are.
Jeff
Richard Vincent Lamb
jrw...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jay R Wise) wrote:
}I'm asking for it... but...
I've been asking for it for a long time. It hasn't stopped me. :-)
<major deletion>
}(Here's why I'll get nailed for sure...)
I have my doubts that you will.
}Hey Mr. Hullett, were you roomies with Mr. Putnam?
It's amazing to me that I've been flaming Chris Putnam for a year (I even
flamed him after every Blue Knights score during DCI week--to no comment at
all) and *no one* from Star has ever defended him. In fact, no one *at all*
has defended him. He hasn't even defended himself, even though I'm sure
he's been reading. The weirdest part was when I confronted Rob Dorocke
about this very topic after he ignored it twice, he ran away rather then
deal with it. Don't you people have any loyalty to your compatriots?
Think about the reverse. Barry York has criticized Jay Wise over the years,
but when Barry was attacked, Jay defended him. I was never a Scout or
Bluecoat, but I defended him, too. Barry knows he's not the most
popular person on this newsgroup, but his friends remember him in times
of need.
Even stranger--what if one of the Troopers involved in "the incident"
posted here? I'd bet that someone would give him an unsolicited
defense. If someone else flamed him, *five* people would defend him,
some of whom would not even be Troopers!
Go figure.
}J.
}
}Not speaking on behalf of any organization...
}
}Disclaimer: I apologize to members of Star of Indiana who are NOT so
}egotistical about their achievements... especially the great alumni my
}wife and I met on our (separate) all-star trips and at the BT gig in
}Canton in 1994.
Then why don't people like them post? I know there are "non-egotisical"
Star '91-'93 members on this newsgroup (I defended one of them--Tony Lymon
--when he was flamed by Ken Mazur), but I never read anything from them.
Scratching my head,
Vince Lamb
Bruce York (Sverdrup)
: >: saviors or anybody that is there to further their ego. And I heard Donnie give
: >: people grief about things but I don't think he would have a qualm about taking
: >: finals unless you were going to miss the weekend before your finals. There were
: >: always people on the quarter system that were coming in late when I marched. As
: >: long as you were prepared and knew what you had to know, there wasn't any
: >: problem. Maybe he felt you didn't know your music that well yet. I think it
: >: would have been alright if you would have talked to him and said that you
: >
: >I always love this stuff. What you are saying is that what was said
: >at first to everyone, i.e. the standard line, might have been changed
: >if one individual went behind closed doors and discussed it. They
: >might have gotten a special deal or preferential treatment. That is
: >if you knew how to play the game. Many of the Corps does this, not
: >just SOI, and I hate it. They are perfectly willing to intimidate
: >kids into missing college or high school events if they can bluff
: >them into it. And then for the few who have the savviness to try and
: >negotiate, if the Corps staff thinks the individual has enough
: >talent, a special deal can be cut. I wish this wasn't how it works
: >but every Corps I know of does it to a small or great degree. Donnie
: >seemed to be on ht egreat end of the scale.
: No, what I am saying is that if you just walk up to him and talk to him after
: a rehearsal, it would probably be okay. He is just trying to make sure people
: are not doing other things when they could be at camp. I think if you assure
: him you will be there as soon as school gets out, and not 2 days later,
: everything would have been okay. Like I said before, maybe the person in
: question's desire wasn't there either.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If none of the other members or potential members at a camp are
informed about this method of getting out of a rehearsal then it is a
special deal for that one individual who did. With respect o the
person in question he was quite aware of such games. In fact when he
marched at the Blue Coats for 2 years they were flexible on this
issue. It was amazing that SOI was not.
Suffice it to say we disagree.
: >
: >: really want to march but just can't be here for whatever time you had to be off
: >: but that you would be there right after your finals.
: >: Jeff Duncan
: >: Florida State University Meteorology Department
: >: GO NOLES!
: >: Star of Indiana Soprano 1991-93
: >
: >
: >--
: >Bruce A. York
: >by...@mbvlab.wpafb.af.mil
: >(signature intact)
: >
: >'... an eagle always flies alone'
: Jeff
Richard Vincent Lamb
In article <m0sm6al-0001AhC@velveeta>, dr...@velveeta.apdev.cs.mci.com (Drew
McPheeters) wrote:
(I wrote, but Drew did not cite me)
}|> This is a f*cking red herring and I agree with you that we should drop
}|> it. The real issue is that you exemplify what so many people on this
}|> newsgroup have found objectionable about Star of Indiana members--they
}|> have a bunker mentality and cannot tolerate any criticism of their unit,
}|> no matter how intelligent. At least you have more gumption than another
}|> ex-Star DM by using your name and posting your .sig.
}
}Actually, you shouldn't stereotype in this one either. There are a lot of
}other corps members on here (Troopers, BlueCoats, Cadets, Phantom, etc)
}and fans which exhibit the so called 'bunker mentality' you mention.
Yes, but not to the same extent--sometimes members and alumni of these units
actually respond thoughtfully to criticism. Let me use The Troopers as an
example. Do you remember the "Troopers Uniform" flame war started by Nick
Jovanovic last year? When someone posted the comment of a Troopers fan who
was apparently irate at Troopers' low score ("Who was judging tonight?
Geronimo?"), Nick pointed out that the Troopers' 11th Ohio Cavalry uniforms
were associated with atrocities conducted against Native Americans. He
suggested (correct me if my memory is wrong, Nick) that the corps should
consider the shameful history associated with the uniform. All the Troopers
supporters rose up in arms and kept Nick on the defensive for nearly a
month. However, the only Troopers members I recall responding were Matt
"Pinwiz" Elcock and Becky Bollinger Parker, M. D. Both wrote (again,
correct me if I err) that they had thought about this question already, had
explored what it meant to them, and that, yes they had some problems with
the history of the US Cavalry (but not the 11th Ohio Cavalry in particular),
but that they had reconciled themselves to its history and could march in
the uniforms. End of flame war. Even with the incident this summer, the
Trooper alums on this newsgroup were not trying to silence their opponents
by calling their *motives* into question (You are just envious because you
were cut and then we beat you all the time). They were trying to ask *what
are your facts and have you listened to both sides yet?* When Joe Bogie
called Troopers mediocre, Terri Gailey did not question his motives.
Instead, she questioned the validity of Joe L. Vala's criteria and pointed
out other criteria that he could use for success. I have most of these
posts saved to disk and can send them to you to check this.
Now, when was the last time the Star people (especially the ones who marched
92-93) have responded that thoughtfully to criticism on this newsgroup?
They (mostly Rob Dorocke, but also Bill Cook and Jeff Duncan) certainly were
not interested in thinking about my comments both last September and again
this April about why I thought they had such a poor reputation on this
newsgroup. Instead, they questioned my maturity and motives and told me to
shut up and get a life (Troopers did not do this to their critics this year
or last!) Only Jen Sullivan (who marched *this year only* in the Brass
Theatre Star, *not* the competitive DCI Star) said (essentially) yes, I see
how this could work. Also-- note this--one Star alum from '93 sent me email
saying that he agreed with me, but dared not say so on the newsgroup because
of the bunker mentality (his words, not mine) of the corps. Contrast that
with what the SCV alumni are doing--openly questioning the direction of
their old corps and even fighting with current staff!
}What I want to know is why it is Okay for other groups to respond to the
}criticism of foes, but the Star folk are seen as being somewhat less
}mature or less inteligent when they respond.
You are on the right track (IMO, responses by Star alums and members to
criticism are less tolerated than responses by members of other corps), but
I suspect you are concentrating on my responses to one particular poster who
I am not even sure is associated with Star. Gary Foose told Terri Gailey
that her posts were a waste of electrons without saying why. Then he told
Barry that he was an ass, period. Terri, Barry, and I have all read lots of
flames directed at us and we all agreed that his posts were stupid and
immature, even by the standards of flames, and we told him so. (FWIW, I
expect better from a graduate student in water resources, even if he's from
Huntington, WV! :-) Furthermore, a neutral party, the maintainer of the
Drumcorps Digest mailing list, said that his posts would be insulting to
children if they were called childish (his last post also caused the
Drumcorps digest software to gag)! Interestingly enough, no one known to be
from Star defended him.
What about the objections raised to the responses from the Star people on
this thread and related ones? I'll start with the one from intellution.com.
(BTW, I agree with Karen Ruschman that I have unjustly accused her. It
turns out that there is at least one other poster to this newsgroup who
has an account at intellution.com. I apologize to Karen for accusing
her. My comments about the content of the post and the methods of its
posting still stand.)
The objections raised by Bruce and Barry York, Jay Wise, and I were that it was:
Anonymously presented;
A personal attack against the credibility of Barry York, not a defense of
Star's actions;
A self-serving (and previously discredited) item of folklore that suggested
that attacks on Star are motivated by envy;
and
A lie.
You can form your own opinions whether the most objectionable qualities of
this post were stupidity and immaturity, or dishonesty, duplicity,
self-interest, and cowardice.
What about the posts from Bob Hullett? Jay, Bruce, Barry and I objected to:
Personal attacks on Barry York (again);
Suggestions that Barry's criticisms were motivated by envy (again);
Personal attacks on people (particularly Bruce) defending Barry;
Misunderstanding what people were saying to defend Barry (this is also true
of the followup post from intellution.com).
Trying to change the subject by bragging about the accomplishments of the
SOI horn line (Tubasmax was also annoyed by this!);
Denigration of the abilities of other corps by association;
General arrogance;
and
Ignorance of who he was talking to and how he would be received on RAMD. I
suspect that he had not talked to many Star folk who had been reading the
past 2 years, or he would have had a better idea of what he was walking into!
Rob Dorocke's responses to my criticism have also included attacking me in
place of criticizing my ideas, misunderstanding of my positions, and
bragging about the achievements of SOI as a defense. Anyone who has
followed my battles with him (and I know that you have, Drew--you were the
one who crowned me King of the Star Bashers, when that title really belonged
to Roger French!) can vouch to this. I suspect that if I were young enough
to have marched in SOI, he would accuse me of envy, too! These are what
annoy me most about the SOI people posting on RAMD and I venture that they
are what most annoy others, too.
Now, are these all symptoms of lack of thoughtfulness and maturity? Maybe,
but I suspect that something else is at work. I have stated that there is a
problem with the organizational culture of SOI, a problem summed up by Barry
York's comment that "All corps feed their members bullshit, but they all
feed them the *same* bullshit--except for Star of Indiana, which feeds their
members their own special brand of bullshit." Some examples are "People
envy us for our money" (Yeah, but BD, SCV, and late '70s Spirit of Atlanta
had money and they got praise for their management, not class warfare
rhetoric). "People envy us for our success" (So? What do they suppose
people think about the current top 6, all of whom have been contenders for
at least a decade? They don't bitch about the envy of others!). "It's us
against the world" (And no one else is in competition with all other corps
in the activity? I don't hear this from Cadets, SCV, or BD, who have been
on top much longer and at least one of which has been the corps to beat
since DCI was founded). Finally, "We're the future and saviors of drum
corps" (You have the nerve to leave a competitive activity and tell the
competitors this? Besides, BD, Cavaliers, and CBC have their own visions of
the future and they're not talking about it--they're doing it)! "The crowd
doesn't like us because they're ignorant" (SCV used to have the most
sophisticated shows in drum corps and the crowd didn't hate them--the crowd
ate their shows up! Cadets took over as innovators and the crowd *still*
enjoyed their shows. Besides, talk about biting the hand that feeds you!)
I've read all these things and more from Star people on the newsgroup. As
Jay Wise typed "I've read more strange things from Star of Indiana people on
this newsgroup...." And I don't think either of us read them from anyone else!
The one encouraging aspect of this is that the "Brass Theatre" SOI
members who did *not* march in the competitive DCI SOI do not post like
this. It seems as if this problem is going away from the organization.
Now if only the alumni could be cured of it.
I've written about all this before and don't have time to continue. I'll
follow up if you wish, but for now I'll go on to the rest of the post.
}I saw plenty of immaturity over the summer in the 'Cadets don't have to
}March' thread,
Yes, but the two antagonists on that thread (Jeff and Jay--A Wise Family
Feud! :-) kept their attacks on the *ideas*, not each other. The immature
posts from others were in the vein of "your idea is stupid", not "you suck"
and "Cadets are getting away with something", not "Cadets are a bunch of
assholes". This is, IMO, at least a few steps above what the alumni of The
Banned are doing.
}the 'Hidden Licks: Cavie Bashing' thread,
Which was mostly two PR alums and one Cavalier alum telling each other that
their horn lines sucked during the mid 80s. Big Whoop. This is normal for
rivals (IMO). If the Anaheim Kingsmen were still a major force in drum
corps, they and VK would be ragging on each other for much the same stuff,
as would North Star and 27th Lancers. (As an alum of both AK and NS, I can
safely say this). Cavaliers had a good, thoughtful defender in Terri
Gailey, who is a Ph. D. Candidate in Music, so the entire thread was not
worthless. Besides, I detected none of the "us against the world" attitude
which, IMO, appears in a lot of SOI responses to criticism.
}the 'Trooper
}incident' thread
I dealt with this already. However, I think much of the immaturity came
from people not connected with Troopers, not even as fans, and came on both
sides (an post from an ex-Aggie comes to mind--Hey, these boots are made for
walking!). The people who had been posting on this newsgroup a long time or
who had declared their connection with Troopers struggled to stay above the
name-calling.
}and many others.
Welcome to USENET, which, according to Roger Ebert, "until recently
consisted mostly of hundreds of undergraduates telling each other that they
suck." Immaturity here is neither new nor noteworthy. What *is* noteworthy
is how this became associated with a particular group.
}That's a shame, cause there really is
}quite a lot of good things to discuss and share.
I agree. I would rather be entering trivia contests or writing my paper for
the RAMD symposium. Instead I am explaining what angers me about a group of
people.
*Sigh*
}Maybe we shouldn't be so down on the Buffalo press for not giving any
}media coverage since the kids weren't in trouble or causing trouble.
}After all, this newsgroup exists as much for airing dirty laundry in
}public, than it does for anything else.
My personal opinion about why this is happening is that the activity is in
crisis. When the threads "Why is Drum corps dying" and Q:What happened to
Canadian Drum corps" appeared (and they are still going), few people
questioned the basic premise that the activity is in serious trouble. I
have told Stuart that many of the participants in the RAMD Symposium are
motivated by a desire to "save the activity". The positive part of this
period in the activity is that people are starting to ask "are we doing the
right thing?" instead of "are we doing things right?" Another question
people are asking is "what is drum corps?" which, IMO, is a very useful
question. The negative aspect of a crisis is that it encourages
scapegoating and ostracism. I think that some people have decided that the
answer to the question "what is drum corps?" is "Well, it's *not* Star of
Indiana!" Consequently, there has been a disorganized, bandwagon effort to
ostracize Star first from the activity and then from this newsgroup. My
nickname for the SOI, "The Banned" is a satire of this attitude and Bill
Cook's declaration that SOI is a band. Even though I am an unofficial
leader of this campaign, I understand it for what it is and think it's
really an unfortunate waste of effort that could be better spent elsewhere.
Now if I could only convince the Star people of this... <ironic :->
}Your in sorrow :(
If you mean "yours in sorrow" I'll agree, although I'm more "Yours in disgust"
:-p and 7-:
}Drew B. McPheeters
Vince Lamb
Who would really rather *not* be "The King of the Star Bashers" +3]:-(
Bruce York (Sverdrup)
: rvl...@umich.edu (Richard Vincent Lamb) wrote:
: >Now on to the matter at hand...
: >
: >>Barry,
: >>
: >>When are you going to come clean and admit to the readers of this
: >>group that your constant whining and knocking of Star stems from the
: >>fact that you were cut when you tried out there?
: >>
: >This should go down as one of the most perfidious myths on RAMD--along
: >with the other great piece of net folklore involving Star, that they left
: >the competitive arena because the hostile fans drove them away, not
: >because they accepted a better offer from Canadian Brass so that they
: >develop their program in an environment free from competition. At least
: >one thing was true about the latter rumor--Star did leave competition.
: >*No* part of your charge against Barry is true. As both Jay Wise and
: >Barry York have already pointed out, Barry was not cut by Star because of
: >his ability--Barry had the ability.
: But not the desire. Otherwise he would have tried to make arrangements instead
: of just quitting.
Well, since I was there first hand I can tell you that there was plenty
of desire. Would not have gone in the first place otherwise. Let me
clue you in. You don't march BlueCoats for two years and Madison for
one with no desire. Barry was practically raised on Drum Corps.
Loves the activity. I suspect your post is only interested
in getting a response.
Not really interested in the facts. Another person added to my
kill file.
: >If you have been reading this
: >newsgroup for longer than about 3 months (about the time I first saw you
: >post), you'd know that Jay Wise has recounted the story of a former
: >Bluecoats soprano who--it was generally agreed upon by Bluecoats--had
: >*less* ability than Barry, but marched Star in (correct me about the
: >year, Jay) '91. Ability was therefore *not* an issue with Barry! Barry
: >*quit* Star on his own accord because he disagreed
: >with them on how they ordered their priorities. Read my response to Bob
: >Hullet for my comments on that. Barry was happy aging out with Madison,
: >also an elite drum corps. Care to ask any Scouts who marched with Barry
: >(some of them read this newsgroup) about his attitude and ability?
: >
: >The second falsehood in this piece of fiction is that Barry was bitter
: >about this experience. No. Barry has been posting since he aged out in
: >'92, first on alt.drumcorps and them here on RAMD. I've been posting and
: >reading here since day 1 of both alt.drumcorps and RAMD and I've been
: >following Barry the entire time. He has stated that he enjoyed '90, '91,
: >and even '92 Star. He didn't like the '93 *show*, but he had nothing
: >critical to say about either the *organization* or its *members*
: I respect that and thank him for the support he showed.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You have a weird way of showing your respect.
: >until
: >*after* the '93 season, when Chris Putnam, who had been a pleasant and
: >well-liked person before he joined Star, came back from tour and
: >proceeded to alienate most of the readers (When Jay Wise writes about
: >Star members posting "Screw the audience--we hate them" he's referring
: >primarily to Chris). Instead of other Star members telling him to mind
: >his manners, they joined in!
: How many people is others? I don't think two or three people speak for the
: organization.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
No but staff members likes Donnie do. And when they try to pull games
of choose college or SOI it becomes pretty clear that does not care
at all about the individual. He only has his interests in mind.
When a supposed adult is dealing with kids I think he should
have their interests in mind. Not his.
: >Many people objected to this as a sign of a
: >serious flaw in the culture of the organization. Barry happens to be the
: >most persistent, but he's not alone.
: >
: >So, no, Barry was not cut. He quit and joined an organization that had
: >priorities more in line with his. He was not bitter about leaving,
: >but (if I read him correctly) became disgusted with the behavior of Star
: >members on this newsgroup, more than a year after aging out. Now, are
: >you and other members and alumni of "The Banned" going to trot out that
: >canard again?
: >
: >Good Day!
: >
: >Richard "Vince" Lamb
: I am also not convinced that Star would want you to put them before your final
: exams. Most of the people there are educators and know how important these
: things are.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well it is a true story. Maybe if you contact Bill Cook, you and he
could try and decide the facts for yourselves. This subject has been
discussed with Bill, after the fact. Since it was a private
conversation I am not at liberty to discuss it.
WmACook
****
You said, they said....! Now let's have the exact quotes and who you're
quoting. Is it any wonder nobody knows what you're talking about?
I've been on the boards for over 3 years and HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE SAY
THIS although I have read that such a comment was attributed to Jim
Mason. And I will tell you that he didn't say it.
Stick with what you know, instead of what you say you heard or read.
I can hardly wait to see what you'll say next--maybe killfile Cook but
then you wouldn't know what I was going to say next. Better to keep us
all active!
Bill Cook
WmACook
Bruce - It probably would be better if you made it a team effort instead
of being off 'alone' so much.
Bill
Dave Nirschl
<Pine.SOL.3.91.950829...@seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
rvl...@umich.edu (Richard Vincent Lamb) wrote:
> It's amazing to me that I've been flaming Chris Putnam for a year (I even
> flamed him after every Blue Knights score during DCI week--to no comment
> at all) and *no one* from Star has ever defended him. In fact, no one
*at all*
> has defended him. He hasn't even defended himself, even though I'm sure
> he's been reading. The weirdest part was when I confronted Rob Dorocke
> about this very topic after he ignored it twice, he ran away rather then
> deal with it. Don't you people have any loyalty to your compatriots?
Vince, I don't have the best memory for this kind of thing, but over a
year ago I defended Chris Putnam. I don't know if it was in response to
one of your flames.
As for why he hasn't defended himself, I think it is because he knows that
these posting wars can get out of hand very quickly, and either 1) doesn't
have the capacity to make you guys understand him, or 2) doesn't feel like
it's worth his time and effort to make you guys understand him. I know
that many times I choose the latter.
Now. If you would like to discuss any of these points further, I would be
more than happy to.
Ah, yes. Also, having not marched in '93, I never had the 'pleasure' of
meeting Mr. Putnam, as some people so lovingly call him. Don't accuse me
of having no loyalty.
dave
Non Nobis
>}Hey Mr. Hullett, were you roomies with Mr. Putnam?
>It's amazing to me that I've been flaming Chris Putnam for a year (I even
>flamed him after every Blue Knights score during DCI week--to no comment
at
>all) and *no one* from Star has ever defended him. In fact, no one *at
all*
>has defended him. He hasn't even defended himself, even though I'm sure
>he's been reading. The weirdest part was when I confronted Rob Dorocke
>about this very topic after he ignored it twice, he ran away rather then
>deal with it. Don't you people have any loyalty to your compatriots?
Vince...as you so frequently point out, I am a bit new...I haven't seen
Chris get "flamed" yet...but don't worry I'll be there for him, just as I
would be there for you if someone attacked a valid and trueful statement
you made...
****************
>Then why don't people like them post? I know there are "non-egotisical"
>Star '91-'93 members on this newsgroup (I defended one of them--Tony
Lymon
>--when he was flamed by Ken Mazur), but I never read anything from them.
I assume the egotistical people you are referring to is mostly me, per
your remarks in the past...I could be mistaken but if I am not would you
explain what in your mind defines egotistical?...How well do you know
me?...Just curious, no venom, Just looking for an answer...
************
>Scratching my head,
>Vince Lamb
Bob Hullett
Jennifer A Sullivan
now in an activity where success depends entirely on pleasing the audience. I
don't know about the past, but as a member of the current Star of Indiana, I
would have to say that one of our biggest goals, besides being the best we could be, was
to have the audience like us.
Jen
--
Jennifer Sullivan jasu...@mit.edu
Graduate Student, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Boston College Class of '94 *Go Eagles!*
Boston Crusaders Drum and Bugle Corps '94
Star of Indiana '95
umaco...@cc.memphis.edu
>> flamed him after every Blue Knights score during DCI week--to no comment
>> at all) and *no one* from Star has ever defended him. In fact, no one
> *at all*
>> has defended him. He hasn't even defended himself, even though I'm sure
>> he's been reading. The weirdest part was when I confronted Rob Dorocke
>> about this very topic after he ignored it twice, he ran away rather then
>> deal with it. Don't you people have any loyalty to your compatriots?
> these posting wars can get out of hand very quickly, and either 1) doesn't
> have the capacity to make you guys understand him, or 2) doesn't feel like
> it's worth his time and effort to make you guys understand him. I know
> that many times I choose the latter.
> meeting Mr. Putnam, as some people so lovingly call him. Don't accuse me
> of having no loyalty.
>
> dave
Thank you dave...........
There you have the exact reason that most Star members that have been
on the internet for a little while do not post on matters pertaining to Star,
unless they are simply supplying information. Most of the times that I read
the newsgroup, I sit and try to predict wether or not a post of mine (wether
defending or not defending Star) will start an argument. if I have any doubt
about a post, I just let my opinion go unsaid. It saves me alot of time and
alot of room in my account's memory.
Also....Dave, write me and tell me what's goin' on!! Haven't heard from you in
a long time!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark Alan "Otto" Compton
Star of Indiana '91-'95 Bassline
Colts '90 Bassline
University of Memphis Music Department
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeff Duncan
>Well, since I was there first hand I can tell you that there was plenty
>of desire. Would not have gone in the first place otherwise. Let me
>clue you in. You don't march BlueCoats for two years and Madison for
>one with no desire. Barry was practically raised on Drum Corps.
>Loves the activity. I suspect your post is only interested
>in getting a response.
>Not really interested in the facts. Another person added to my
>kill file.
Believe me, I'm not like this, but I am just so devastated that you are adding
me to your kill file list, NOT. Like I have said before, I just don't think
that that would be the case. Period. I will say no more on this matter and I am
sorry that I made you mad, but thats just not been my experience my 3 years in
Star.
>--
>Bruce A. York
>by...@mbvlab.wpafb.af.mil
>(signature intact)
>
>'... an eagle always flies alone'
Jeff
Jeff Duncan
>If none of the other members or potential members at a camp are
>informed about this method of getting out of a rehearsal then it is a
>special deal for that one individual who did. With respect o the
>person in question he was quite aware of such games. In fact when he
>marched at the Blue Coats for 2 years they were flexible on this
>issue. It was amazing that SOI was not.
>Suffice it to say we disagree.
>
>--
>Bruce A. York
>by...@mbvlab.wpafb.af.mil
>(signature intact)
>
>'... an eagle always flies alone'
I agree with Hullett that it is ludicrous to think that Star wanted him there
rather than to be taking his finals. There must have been a misunderstanding
somewhere.
Jeff
Mene tekel
Who would really rather *not* be "The King of the Star Bashers" +3]:-(
We accept you resignation. Please take your cabinet with you.
menetekel