The Tick System gave perfect scores too.
Mark Fosdick
score in GE under the tick system. Now we all no you can't get a perfect
score but under the tick system which everyone says is so much better
someone got a perfect in GE. How can you get a perfect in GE its imposible.
So don't complain about how perfects couldn't happen in the tick system.
Because they did.
--
Mark Fosdick
LER 1997 Baritone
LER 1998-? Contra
No matter what anyone says Division II/III rules!!
fo...@penn.com
God Bless
R. Cardaneo
build up caption, just like it is today
Bob Cardaneo
FrankAreMe
BUT!----GE WAS BUILD UP THEN JUST AS IT IS NOW so it doesn't count as a perfect
score from the tick system!! Check your facts!
SkyAlumni
"Mark Fosdick" <fo...@penn.com> wrote:
>I found out that in the early eightys (or maybee 70's) SCV got a perfect
>score in GE under the tick system. Now we all no you can't get a perfect
>score but under the tick system which everyone says is so much better
>someone got a perfect in GE.
Does this mean that no one has received a perfect score under the system now in
place for DCI? Perhaps you could take a look at the break downs and report back
to us. With a system that is as subjective as the system used for gymnastics,
perfect scores are not uncommon.
> How can you get a perfect in GE its imposible.
You say GE. Which GE caption was it? Horn, drums, (what used to be called) M&M?
Could you illucidate please?
>So don't complain about how perfects couldn't happen in the tick system.
>Because they did.
Mark, the tick system was employed because it was (and still is) the best way
to judge execution, something that is not taken into account nowaday. Not only
did it hold individual members accountable for playing a piece of music as
written or performing a drill with proper interval and spacing, but it also
held the judge accountable on a realistic level, not an ephermal one. If you
hear or see an error that is concrete, you get a tick marked against you.
(Please don't give me any semantical BS, there is something called reality.)
Execution is the name of the game when it comes to the tick system, not GE. The
GE captions were added because it did get boring listening to nothing but
military style music. The GE caption is what really had the average fan in mind
and really got them "involved" in the show being presented by
___________.(Place the name of whatever corps here.)
"Back in the day", under the "Tick" system, there was also (as I remember)
something called "Difficulty". Perhaps one of the "Old-Timers" (and I use the
term affectionately) could varify this. This caption was the forerunner of the
system now employed by the judging system in place in DCI and DCA today. It
seems that the most difficult pieces of music to play are the one's that are
the most obscure or one's that are composed especially for a particular corps?
This was the caption that allowed arrangers, drill "designers" and the like to
"push the envelope". But this type of system only plays to a small fan base,
namely the parents of those who march with those corps who play that type of
music. But it appears that drum corps has come full circle. The only corps that
are "winning" (by this I mean are being given marks that are perfect) are the
corps that are playing some really obscure music. GE is not taken into account.
Neither is execution. If execution were taken into account the Cadets of Bergen
County would not have won DCI this year. So, once again, just like when there
was only one caption,(namely execution) the winning shows are boring.
Difficulty has replaced execution as the hallmark by which corps are judged
today, and difficult show, for the most part, are boring. They do not entertain
thus the fans base has been depleted. (Not to mention the outrageous fees being
charged those youth that wish to participate. This only serves a small,
exclusive segment of the youth of this country. Those who claim they are doing
it for the kids then charge outrageous fees are full of shit to put plain and
simple.)
In the "Golden Age" of drum corps it was the "Tick" system that kept all those
drum corps competitive. Why?, Because it employed three different ways of
judging the same show. A corps had to be proficient in three areas. If they
excelled in just one area they couldn't win. A corps couldn't specialize in one
area and expect to win as is common today. (Over 650 junior corps back in the
60's and 70's, not including the parade outfits. That is what I call serving
the youth of this country.)
If the judging system returned to incorporating the elements of difficulty, GE
and execution on an equal basis, in other word a return to the "Tick" system:
(1) there would not be the domination by the two or three corps that there is
today; and (2) more corps would have an equal opportunity to win which would
expand the present narrow fan base. There would probably be other significant
improvements as well but I've already taken up a lot of space.
>--
>Mark Fosdick
>LER 1997 Baritone
>LER 1998-? Contra
>No matter what anyone says Division II/III rules!!
>fo...@penn.com
>God Bless
Michael T. Siglow
Madonna 1953-64
Skyliners Nov. 11, 1964-70,75-78,92
Skyliners Alumni Corps Nov. 1993 til ?
Archer-Epler Musketeers 97-98
"It's not what a person accomplishes in life that matters,
it's what a person overcomes, that's what counts."
Jeff
both had 3 10's and 27th had 2. At this time, it was decreeded that one could
not give a maximum score unless it was the last corps. this was to insure that a
better program and performance could receive a higher score.
Jeff
Mark Fosdick wrote:
> I found out that in the early eightys (or maybee 70's) SCV got a perfect
> score in GE under the tick system. Now we all no you can't get a perfect
> score but under the tick system which everyone says is so much better
> someone got a perfect in GE. How can you get a perfect in GE its imposible.
> So don't complain about how perfects couldn't happen in the tick system.
> Because they did.
> --
Lake Erie Regiment was much improved this year. Congratulations.
Jeff
Fieldpaint
Rick
Jeff
SkyAlumni wrote:
> Mark, the tick system was employed because it was (and still is) the best way
> to judge execution, something that is not taken into account nowaday. Not only
> did it hold individual members accountable for playing a piece of music as
> written or performing a drill with proper interval and spacing, but it also
> held the judge accountable on a realistic level, not an ephermal one. If you
> hear or see an error that is concrete, you get a tick marked against you.
> (Please don't give me any semantical BS, there is something called reality.)
Reality being in the eye (or ear) of the beholder, the counting of gross errors is
simply a non-musical method of a performance at a drum corps contest. It is the
best way to determine who makes the least errors, i.e. execution, but this does not
always correspond in who has the best brass or percussion section. There are flaws
to any system, none of them are perfect.
You might equate ticks to Catholicism. he who sins least reaps the reward. The
current system as being a Protestant version of being rewarded for good works.
Either way, you can have a winner.
I'm heading to Allentown for my annual dose of DCA and look forward to hearing the
Sky Alumni play Elks Parade and all the others great ones. Have a great show.
Jeff, judge who has recorded 10,000 ticks and doesn't miss it
RARIDAN
>errors is
>simply a non-musical method of a performance at a drum corps contest. It is
>the
>best way to determine who makes the least errors, i.e. execution, but this
>does not
>always correspond in who has the best brass or percussion section.
Thus is why GE scores were build up scores. That is where the musicability of
each section in each corp. is to benifit the score. This created a system of
checks and balances where a corp could be encouraged to march a clean show and
a musically and visually enjoyable show.
RAR...@AOL.COM (Pete Reynolds)(Bluecoats75-77)
Chris Maher
>
>If the judging system returned to incorporating the elements of difficulty, GE
>and execution on an equal basis, in other word a return to the "Tick" system:
>(1) there would not be the domination by the two or three corps that there is
>today; and (2) more corps would have an equal opportunity to win which would
>expand the present narrow fan base. There would probably be other significant
>improvements as well but I've already taken up a lot of space.
>
I marched under the tick system and agree with much of what you said. But I
cannot see how the tick system would prevent domination by a few corps. I don't
know much about pre-DCI, but weren't there dominant corps in the 60s? Weren't
SCV and BD (won 7 of 8 championships between 73 and 80) dominant through the
seventies? (when did the tick system end?)
I'm convinced that the biggest factor in the dominance of a few corps is that a
kid in Maine (or Japan) can march in a corps from California. As long as that
is true, the best corps from last year will generally attract the best kids
next year, thus ensuring their success.
Also money follows the winner, so once you win it is easier to sell souvies,
solicit donations, find corporate sponsors, etc. And all that money helps you
hire better instructors.
Dennis Delucia was asked at the Ypsi indoor show if corps were more talented
today than the past. I don't remember his answer, but mine is that the talent
is more concentrated due to less geographical limitations and less corps.
Unless there could be a DCI draft and expense caps placed on corps, I don't see
the dominance factor dimishing regardless of the scoring system.
Chris
--
Christopher P. Maher
Maher Associates, Inc.
Actuarial and Computer Consulting
Home Page: http://www.maherassociates.com/
E-Mail: ch...@maherassociates.com
corpreps.com - The Drum Corps Repertoire Database
http://www.corpsreps.com
FrankAreMe
>best way to determine who makes the least errors, i.e. execution, but this
>does not
>always correspond in who has the best brass or percussion section.
What are you saying here Jeff????? That a brass line that makes fewer mistakes
may not be the best?? I don't understand.
FrankAreMe
>know much about pre-DCI, but weren't there dominant corps in the 60s?
Cavaliers 61, 62, 63, 67
Kilties 64, 68. 69
Troopers 66, 70
Royal Airs 65
Sac 60
Santa Clara 71
These are the VFW winners in the sixties and 1971. 12 years, 6 different
corps.
Kingsmen 72
Santa Clara 73, 74, 78, 81
Madison 75
Blue Devils 76, 77, 79.80
DCI Winners 72-81 (82 is left out because that is when the brass caption
became build up, drums and M&M were still tick.) 10 years, 4 corps.
Blue Devils 82, 86, 94, 96, 97
Cadets 83, 84, 85, 87, 90, 93, 98
Madison 88
Santa Clara 89
Star 91
Cavaliers 92, 95
Phantom 96
DCI build-up system, 15 years, 7 different corps.
The way I read this is that each system gave us dominate corps, maybe less
repeats now but that's due to other factors such has members hopping from corps
to corps.
So, no, the tick system didn't give us more dominance by a corps or two and the
build up system really doesn't either.
Frank
FrankAreMe
>not give a maximum score unless it was the last corps. this was to insure
>that a
>better program and performance could receive a higher score.
But this contradicts the "it's the best thing I've ever seen in my life" thing
that you and other judges justified Olivero giving Cadets a 10 in performance
visual! What if the best that judge has ever seen in his life was the fourth
corps on??? Dock them because their not on later??? NO!! Judge WHAT IS ON
THE FIELD AT THAT MOMENT. Not based on what X corps did in June, not based on
"if you do this I'll give you more points" not based on comparing the entire
history of the activity to one show. Judge what is going on, that's it, no
more, no less.
Frank
Fieldpaint
>How did GE factor into the tick system?
>
>Rick
Nevermind... Between the time I posted the message above and the time I posted
this... I learned how to read.
Rick!
Bill Haas
>>It is the best way to determine who makes the least errors, i.e.
execution, but this
>>does not always correspond in who has the best brass or percussion
section.
Jeff, am I to understand that execution doesn't matter as long as the most
talented horn line is rewarded with the highest score? We in the
Southernmost corps call this the Joan Marie Penney-Mike Rubino book of
judging. Take a corps that has an extremely difficult book, great
individual and sectional talent and make sure you sample the sections only
when they play their most difficult passages and judge their status as a
brass line by execution only. Oh, wait a minute thats right-this exhibits
the section of your treatise that execution errors prevail only when a judge
wants to use execution as the criteria for a lower score.
I am sure this objective judging satisfies your lofty standards explained
above. The judges are to reward lines that they see as the best regardless
of their on field performance, as long as the "right brass and percussion
lines" receive the highest scores? Who judges the judges performance? Who
questions a brass judge for asking a horn instructor in critique "you have a
really difficult book, are you being rewarded for that?" 2 hours after this
judge wrote a score with no mention of difficulty in the scoring process.
Who questions when a corps overnight falls from an 8.6 in field brass to a
6.9?
As long as the only criteria for judging is "getting it right" -in terms of
the best brass or percussion- not performance, execution or any set
criteria, then the system is too easily abused and inherently faulty. Who
judges the judges to make sure THEY get it right?
Where is the reward of difficulty-or is that only in the top 6? Where is
the reward for the excellence of execution - in 5 points on the field?
Slotting is self perpetuating as judges hold scores in their bag for the
later corps regardless of the show the earlier corps may have.
People say Madison will always win a fan judged system. I beg to differ.
Today's judging is a fan judged system with a limited sample of 7 fans in
green shirts participating. Let's roll back the clock and have judges who
are drum corps vets and instructors judging the genre-not judges whose
father was a great judge but refuses to let her band students march in drum
corps. But I am told she is one helluva clarinet player.
Bill Haas
SkyAlumni
Jeff <JEFFMI...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>Reality being in the eye (or ear) of the beholder, the counting of gross
>errors is
>simply a non-musical method of a performance at a drum corps contest.
I guess that pretty much explains a reality for purposes here.
>It is
>the
>best way to determine who makes the least errors, i.e. execution,
That is the point I had made.
>but this
>does not
>always correspond in who has the best brass or percussion section.
As far as an execution scores it addressed this issue quite nicely. This
coupled with a score for GE and a score for difficulty determined who had the
best overall horn line or drum line or who marched best.
There are
>flaws
>to any system, none of them are perfect.
Agreed.
>
>You might equate ticks to Catholicism. he who sins least reaps the reward.
Interesting comparison. <G> Having studied for the priesthood (Salesians of St.
John Bosco at Don Bosco Juniorate in West Haverstraw, N.Y., which is now known
as the Marian Shrine) may I point out that everyone sins, but the one who
learns to control their character defects and repents his sins will probably
sin no more. Just as a member of drum corps may make an excecution error, learn
from it and not make that same error again.
>The
>current system as being a Protestant version of being rewarded for good
>works.
Again, a very interesting comparison. My undergraduate degree is a BAS in
Sociology and the Protestant Work Ethic seems to fit nicely here. The basic
definition was that to accumulate wealth and perform good deeds would show our
Creator that we are good and worthy to be with Him in Heaven after we pass from
this earth. The only stumbling block is that performance of good and
accumulation of wealth does not necessarily entitle us admission into Heaven,
God still chooses which of us will be with Him in Heaven.
>Either way, you can have a winner.
Again, agreed.
>
>I'm heading to Allentown for my annual dose of DCA and look forward to
>hearing the
>Sky Alumni play Elks Parade and all the others great ones. Have a great show.
And we are looking forward to entertaining you and the rest of those who come
to the DCA Alumni show on Sunday, Sept. 6.
>
>Jeff, judge who has recorded 10,000 ticks and doesn't miss it
Yeah, and I was probably on the receiving end of few of them. <G>
SkyAlumni
ch...@maherassociates.com (Chris Maher) wrote:
>I'm convinced that the biggest factor in the dominance of a few corps is that
>a
>kid in Maine (or Japan) can march in a corps from California. As long as that
>
>is true, the best corps from last year will generally attract the best kids
>next year, thus ensuring their success.
This is an EXCELLENT point and one with which I concur. Another significant
benefit of a return to the "Tick" system could be regionalization. That kid
from Maine could perform with a drum corps from Maine and not have to travel to
California. There would be a drum corps in his area that conceivably could be
just as good as, if not better then, that drum corps in California. Or he
wouldn't necessarily audition with a drum corps in Maine and be told by the
auditioner that he is needed in a drum corps in Delaware and if he didn't march
in Delaware, he is not needed.
>
>Dennis Delucia was asked at the Ypsi indoor show if corps were more talented
>today than the past. I don't remember his answer, but mine is that the talent
>
>is more concentrated due to less geographical limitations and less corps.
Another excellent point. Fewer of this nations youth get the exposure to the
benefits that drum corps gave to so many of us and that is where the powers
that be in DCI are failing. This is another excellent argument for
regionalization, AND a return to the "Tick" system.
I don't
>see
>the dominance factor dimishing regardless of the scoring system.
I'm not in agreement with you on this point. Over the past 15 years, there are
two corps that have won DCI 12 of those years as compared to 6 different
dominant corps from 1960 thru 1971 where two corps were dominant 7 of those 12
years. That's 80% versus 58 1/3% domination. I think this is yet another
compelling argument for a return to the "Tick" system.
>
>Chris
Thank you for your thoughtful response, and I hope you'll be at DCA this coming
weekend.
Jeff
FrankAreMe wrote:
> > At this time, it was decreeded that one could
> >not give a maximum score unless it was the last corps. this was to insure
> >that a
> >better program and performance could receive a higher score.
>
> But this contradicts the "it's the best thing I've ever seen in my life" thing
> that you and other judges justified Olivero giving Cadets a 10 in performance
> visual!
Frank, calm down you're gonna have a stroke. Cadets were on last in 98 Finals. I
didn't give out multiple ten's in 1975, nor did I decree that they should be given
out last. This is the simply the history of the maximum mark. Now Pepe Notaro had
another take, God Bless You, Pepe. He stated that if you had to wait until last to
give a ten to allow a better performance, you could give the first corps in Finals
no more than an 8.9 etc, etc, etc because you had to leave room for everyone else
to beat them.
This simply was a reaction to having 8 10's. These scores are very rare. We have
one a year on the average.
> What if the best that judge has ever seen in his life was the fourth
> corps on??? Dock them because their not on later??? NO!! Judge WHAT IS ON
> THE FIELD AT THAT MOMENT. Not based on what X corps did in June, not based on
> "if you do this I'll give you more points" not based on comparing the entire
> history of the activity to one show. Judge what is going on, that's it, no
> more, no less.
>
If the best corps you have ever seen is on 4th, then a 9.9 is essentially the same
as a perfect mark, because that's the highest you can give. Of course 9.9's only
are give out somewhat more frequently than the 10's.
We do judge what's going on, but also need to be aware of contest dynamics. The
first job of the judge is to rank and rate. Then if corps #4 is the best in the
show, they should be first and have a spread that reflects their superiority.
Whether that's a 10.0 to 9.8, 9.9 to a 9.7, or even 8.5 to 8.3, it's still a .2
spread. Rank and rate, old as the hills.
Jeff, the last remaining DCI Brass judge to compete with a G-D slip slide bugle
SkyAlumni
R...@Dicemen.com (Ron Allard) wrote:
>If I remember correctly, the Colors were the first thing on and the last
>thing off...?
You're half right Ron, the Honor Guard was the first thing on and the first to
leave the field. The next person to exit from the field had to step over the
finish line with eight steps of the Honor Guard or there was a penalty.
Tom Peashey
adhering strictly to the then very conservative rules of military conduct,
but Carrocio was still a gas... Then, again, look who we were competing
against - Jolly Jesters??? Talk about non conformity.
Tom
Ron Allard wrote in message <6sd1pf$b...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
>> skya...@aol.com (SkyAlumni) wrote:
>>
>> > On 31 Aug 1998 01:14:04GMT
>> > R...@Dicemen.com (Ron Allard) wrote:
>> >
>> > >If I remember correctly, the Colors were the first thing on and the
last
>> > >thing off...?
>>
>> You're half right Ron, the Honor Guard was the first thing on and the
first to
>> leave the field. The next person to exit from the field had to step over
the
>> finish line with eight steps of the Honor Guard or there was a penalty.
>
>Thanks, Mike...
>
>I remember the infamous "8 steps", now that you bring it up...
>We (Executives) got nailed on that one a couple times...
>
>
>--
>Ron in Vegas
>mailto:ron.a...@att.net
>
>"Because there was always something about the Skyliners....and that
>music..."
>- Donnie Solinger
>
>Corpsreps.com - The Drum Corps Repertoire Database
>http://www.corpsreps.com
HTGJLG
>Date: 8/30/98 11:03 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <199808301603...@ladder03.news.aol.com>
>Not only
>did it hold individual members accountable for playing a piece of music as
>written or performing a drill with proper interval and spacing, but it also
>held the judge accountable on a<<snip>>
Yes, accountable to the perfection of the show design and music. Today
accountability is to the judges only. Placate the judges or you will lose.
<<snip>>
>Difficulty has replaced execution as the hallmark by which corps are judged
>today, and difficult show, for the most part, are boring.
I don't agree with you on this one. Today's drum and horn arrangements are far
less demanding than years past. You simply could not run and play the books
that they played in the 'old days'. I do agree that marching has become more
difficult. More entertaining? Now that is a different story.
Herb Gatwood
HTGJLG
>Date: 8/30/98 12:40 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <35E98E7B...@prodigy.ne
>Reality being in the eye (or ear) of the beholder, the counting of gross
>errors is
>simply a non-musical method of a performance at a drum corps contest. It is
>the
>best way to determine who makes the least errors, i.e. execution, but this
>does not
>always correspond in who has the best brass or percussion section. There are
>flaws
>to any system, none of them are perfect.
Yeah, that's why the late tick system would consider musicality as well.
>You might equate ticks to Catholicism. he who sins least reaps the reward.
>The
>current system as being a Protestant version of being rewarded for good
>works.
>Either way, you can have a winner.
Man, you are 'out there' on this one. And you are a judge?
Herb Gatwood
JB GALAHAD
>may not be the best?? I don't understand.
Of course it's possible for a line to make a few more 'mistakes' than anoother
and still be the best on the field. ESP if you take demand into account.
Mike (mda...@ets.org)
JB GALAHAD
>of their on field performance
'Performance' is based on LOTS of things, not just what used to pass for'ticks'
in the old days.
>Let's roll back the clock
Let's not.
>I am told she is one helluva clarinet player.
And the point is?
Mike
ScribeToo
Mike..
read the WHOLE post. Bill is calling for a degree of accountability among the
judges that relies on MORE than just a music degree -- in that regard, he is
calling for DRUM CORPS EXPERIENCE (thus the clarinet player comment).
man, if you have to have it explained to you, it's time to take a minute to
step back and see the whole picture.
Try to read the ENTIRE thing and then make sure your reading comprehension test
scores are up with your grade level before you go off, eh??
THANKS!
Stefanie
ScribeToo
you've already gone off on me..
didn't know WHO the heck the new "MIKE" was writing on some JB Galahad ID..
but I still have to say, you can't take things out of context.. not in this
kind of a thing..
The post was clear and concise with regard to what was being called for.. I
for one, agree wholeheartedly.
Drum Corps experience (AND a music degree) SHOULD be a pre-requisite for
judges.. as WELL as a "checks and balances" system to make judges accountable
for their sometimes wholly subjective numbers assignments..
My biggest question in regard to the last half of that is.. if there is
nothing to hide, then the judging community has nothing to lose by making
itself more accountable for its actions.. right?
wouldn't you think??
Stefanie
Notabando
boyboytodascuppydirtyragesasanononono
heychaheychaheychahdyf0ijsargi]jpt
SkyAlumni
htg...@aol.com (HTGJLG) wrote:
>Today's drum and horn arrangements are far
>less demanding than years past. You simply could not run and play the books
>that they played in the 'old days'.
That is do to instrumentation. Try playing shows today on a G-D bugle. You
can't, that horn doesn't play all the notes that these three valve G-F horns
play.
>I do agree that marching has become more
>difficult. More entertaining? Now that is a different story.
That's my point, entertainment value is not considered.
SkyAlumni
>boyboytodascuppydirtyragesasanononono
Easy, or we'll lower your medication.
Terri Dittrich
>
> >
> >Yeah, we were a little....uh, different...
> >Kinda like the precursors to the Bridgemen and VK...
> >Heh...
>
> I remember the Spectacle City Mariners being disqualified for using pyro and a
> fire extinguisher in their show. I also remember watching Captain Crunch (Joe
> Bruno) "ground" his saber right before the T&P judge picked it up and ticked
> him for dropped equipment........funny stuff
My God, we all called him "Cap'n Crunch." It's a small drum corps
world. Add the music yourself.:-)
-Terri
FrankAreMe
>marched
>with would never have beaten the CMCC Warriors in M&M. Talk about a kick in
>the arse! We both had the same M&M Instructor!
>
>Larry Girard, Jr.
And the Harvey Seed Rebels would never have beaten the Cabs! And the
Northernaires would never have beaten the Kilties!!
FrankAreMe
>Here's the breakdown, right off of an American Legion form 14-001 "Corps
>Summary" circa 1970:
Wow Larry, I'm just amazed that you actually have a copy of that!!! Wish
Istill had mine!
Frank
FrankAreMe
>If I remember correctly, the Colors were the first thing on and the last
>thing off...?
>
>
The colors use to be the only thing allowed on the field except for the drum
major prior to the start of the show.
Frank
FrankAreMe
>a
>fire extinguisher in their show. I also remember watching Captain Crunch
>(Joe
>Bruno) "ground" his saber right before the T&P judge picked it up and ticked
>him for dropped equipment........funny stuff
That was funny!!! I remember Des Plaines Vanguard faking out the medical folks
when they did their war battle in "Mars" and the medics running out onto the
field with stretchers and stuff...was hilarious! (South Milwaukee prelims,
1973)
No, there weren't any penalties or anything, just a good laugh!
FrankAreMe
Ok Jeff I'm better now (actually I'm always calm, just doesn't look that way!)
So...hypothetical....if order of appearence at finals would have been drawn
instead of reverse order...and Cadets would have gone on third and Carolina
Crown last and had the same performance level that they had at finals this
year.....they would have gotten totally different scores because of where they
were positioned??
MIKE DUFFY
ScribeToo wrote:
> Mike..
>
> read the WHOLE post. Bill is calling for a degree of accountability among the
> judges that relies on MORE than just a music degree -- in that regard, he is
> calling for DRUM CORPS EXPERIENCE (thus the clarinet player comment).
>
> man, if you have to have it explained to you, it's time to take a minute to
> step back and see the whole picture.
>
> Try to read the ENTIRE thing and then make sure your reading comprehension test
> scores are up with your grade level before you go off, eh??
>
That would be "Correct A Mundo!!!:-)"
MIKE DUFFY
Notabando wrote:
> anaanaanaanaaaaaaastopguppyzoopinda houzzzcuz
> boyboytodascuppydirtyragesasanononono
>
> heychaheychaheychahdyf0ijsargi]jpt
In a "Nut Shell!!"
MIKE DUFFY
Ron Allard wrote:
> If I remember correctly, the Colors were the first thing on and the last
> thing off...?
And each day was usually a different color:-)
McV'sSecret
mda...@ets.org
scri...@aol.com (ScribeToo) wrote:
> Oh, and Mike.. sorry about the post about your "grade".. though I'm sure
> you've already gone off on me..
>
> didn't know WHO the heck the new "MIKE" was writing on some JB Galahad ID..
>
It's my son's AOL id.
> but I still have to say, you can't take things out of context.. not in this
> kind of a thing..
>
I don't think I did. It appeared to me that Bill went from generic good stuff
to a personal attack on a judge who had Magic down during the year. I know
Joan a bit, from being a friend of her brother, and I know the kind of person
she is. So, when I see an unfair attack, I respond.
> The post was clear and concise with regard to what was being called for.. I
> for one, agree wholeheartedly.
>
> Drum Corps experience (AND a music degree) SHOULD be a pre-requisite for
> judges.. as WELL as a "checks and balances" system to make judges accountable
> for their sometimes wholly subjective numbers assignments..
>
I'm not sure about 'requiring' corps experience, although some marching
experience should be required.
As for accountability, I'm all for THAT. Judges should be held accountable
for what they do. The sweat and tears of thousands of kids require that the
judging be of the highest standards possible.
> My biggest question in regard to the last half of that is.. if there is
> nothing to hide, then the judging community has nothing to lose by making
> itself more accountable for its actions.. right?
>
> wouldn't you think??
>
Absolutely. I can't see how ANY judge could complain about THAT.
Mike
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
mda...@ets.org
scri...@aol.com (ScribeToo) wrote:
>
> Mike..
>
> read the WHOLE post.
I did.
> Bill is calling for a degree of accountability among the
> judges that relies on MORE than just a music degree -- in that regard, he is
> calling for DRUM CORPS EXPERIENCE (thus the clarinet player comment).
>
No, it was a personal attack on a judge who had Magic down early in the
season.
> Try to read the ENTIRE thing and then make sure your reading comprehension
test
> scores are up with your grade level before you go off, eh??
>
They are just fine, thank you.
> THANKS!
>
I guess I'm not 'flavor of the week' with YOU this week, am I?
:-)
mda...@ets.org
It's really amazing how NOTABANDO manages to condense the issues down to their
essentials.
How can anyone disagree with him?
Dennis E. Sparrow
mda...@ets.org wrote in message <6seuon$4rn$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>> Drum Corps experience (AND a music degree) SHOULD be a pre-requisite for
>> judges.. as WELL as a "checks and balances" system to make judges
accountable
>> for their sometimes wholly subjective numbers assignments..
>
>I'm not sure about 'requiring' corps experience, although some marching
>experience should be required.
>
I don't think that a judge should necessarily have a music degree, but they
should have at least 5 years of drum corps experience. I do not have a music
degree, but with my 10 years of drum corps marching experience, I would be
willing to bet that I could pick out errors in either a horn ensemble or in
marching that a non-drum corps music major would never hear or see. The fact
is, I've been there. I know what is going on from experience. A music degree
has absolutely nothing to do with it. An experienced former marching member
should know what sucks and what doesn't. Marching in a drum corps and marching
in a marching band are two completely different things. Quit trying to make
them the same.
Dennis "Still Ticking" Sparrow
ScribeToo
>> judges that relies on MORE than just a music degree -- in that regard, he
>is
>> calling for DRUM CORPS EXPERIENCE (thus the clarinet player comment).
>>
>
>No, it was a personal attack on a judge who had Magic down early in the
>season.
>
He used an EXAMPLE.. when does using an example of your own personal experience
become a personal ATTACK??
geez... you are so frustrating, mike..
Stefanie
ScribeToo
>> judges.. as WELL as a "checks and balances" system to make judges
>accountable
>> for their sometimes wholly subjective numbers assignments..
>>
>
>I'm not sure about 'requiring' corps experience, although some marching
>experience should be required.
You wouldn't see people who had NO IDEA about figure skating judging the
olympic figure skating competitions.. why NOT require drum corps experience??
It's a genre that requires a specific understanding in MANY WAYS in order to
be as objective as possible in a wholly SUBJECTIVE judging system.
Just because you know about music, doesn't automatically mean you would be good
at judging drum corps.. and just because you know about dance doesn't mean
you should be judging colorguard..
I say require PRE-REQUISITE DRUM CORPS EXPERIENCE from the professionals we
place the power of determination with.. it makes sense. Few things do in this
activity any more..
Perhaps.. and I'm just saying perhaps.. the ABSENCE of drum corps experience
in the judging community is what has led us down the path of creative
righteousness we are trapped on today..
who knows..?
Stefanie
ScribeToo
>should have at least 5 years of drum corps experience. I do not have a music
>degree, but with my 10 years of drum corps marching experience, I would be
>willing to bet that I could pick out errors in either a horn ensemble or in
>marching that a non-drum corps music major would never hear or see. The fact
>is, I've been there. I know what is going on from experience. A music
>degree
>has absolutely nothing to do with it. An experienced former marching member
>should know what sucks and what doesn't. Marching in a drum corps and
>marching
>in a marching band are two completely different things. Quit trying to make
>them the same.
>
>
Dennis, I will buy this and a pack of gum!! a degree is nice to have.. but for
many it's just a piece of paper..
I recant my statement in respect to a degree requirement.. but I retain that
there must be DC Experience as part of the equation.. a degree or COMMENSURATE
DC experience should be secondary..
Stef
Bill Haas
>I don't think I did. It appeared to me that Bill went from generic good
stuff
>to a personal attack on a judge who had Magic down during the year.
Personal attack, hardly. I question her qualifications to be judging field
brass, and her performance in that area. Because of my son's participation
with Magic I paid closer attention to the recaps for them. Statistically,
her scores and those of Mike Rubino stood out from the rest of the judges.
>I know Joan a bit, from being a friend of her brother, and I know the kind
of person
>she is. So, when I see an unfair attack, I respond.
IYHO, it was an attack and unfair Mike. Look at the score differentials and
spreads when JMP judged Magic from the norms. Judges, referees and umpires
are questioned in all sports. I can safely say she doesn't give a rats ass
what I think. It is a question of her performance as a brass judge in my
mind. As a friend I would appreciate your support too BUT:
She does not let her school band kids march drum corps.
She is a woodwind player judging brass.
She has never marched or instructed drum corps.
With all of this DCI support and experience <sarcasm off> she will gladly
cash a paycheck as a judge.
>> Drum Corps experience (AND a music degree) SHOULD be a pre-requisite for
>> judges.. as WELL as a "checks and balances" system to make judges
accountable
>> for their sometimes wholly subjective numbers assignments..
>I'm not sure about 'requiring' corps experience, although some marching
>experience should be required.
How about brass experience to judge brass Mike or is that too much of a
stretch?
>As for accountability, I'm all for THAT. Judges should be held accountable
>for what they do. The sweat and tears of thousands of kids require that the
>judging be of the highest standards possible.
And it is the responsibility of the governing body to provide adequate
judges, trained in the areas they are judging, which are in order
1. Drum and Bugle Corps
1A. Brass (field)
1A. Percussion (field)
1A. Visual (field and booth)
You will notice I did not mention music ensemble or general effect as any
person with musical knowledge and drum corps background can judge those
categories be they brass or percussion oriented.
As long as the bulk of judging is subjective opinion versus field peformance
evaluation these problems will exist.
Bill Haas
Dennis E. Sparrow
>>From: "Dennis E. Sparrow" <DSpa...@Brick.Net>
>>Date: 8/31/98 3:15 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <0BDG1.460$cl1.6...@news1.i1.net>
>
>>but they
>>should have at least 5 years of drum corps experience. I do not have a music
>>degree, but with my 10 years of drum corps marching experience, I would be
>>willing to bet that I could pick out errors in either a horn ensemble or in
>>marching that a non-drum corps
>
>
>Please apply for the position Dennis.
>
>Having judges out there that don't have a dc background is, IMO, dangerous to
>the activity.
>
>Herb Gatwood
Actually, I did inquire about filling in for the late judge at the Alton show.
My ex-corps director, Bob Lendman, who was running the show just laughed. Now
come on. I wouldn't have zeroed anybody out, honest.
Dennis "Here Comes the Judge" Sparrow
Brian Tingley
mda...@ets.org wrote:
> In article <35EAC6C5...@att.net>,
> MIKE DUFFY <mike-...@att.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Notabando wrote:
> >
> > > anaanaanaanaaaaaaastopguppyzoopinda houzzzcuz
> > > boyboytodascuppydirtyragesasanononono
> > >
> > > heychaheychaheychahdyf0ijsargi]jpt
> >
> > In a "Nut Shell!!"
> >
> >
>
> It's really amazing how NOTABANDO manages to condense the issues down to their
> essentials.
>
> How can anyone disagree with him?
>
> :-)
>
> Mike
>
>
I don't want to be seen as contrarian or nit picky, but shouldn't that be:
boyboyTODDYascuppydirtyragesasnononono
I am willing to stand corrected, but it seems to me that's the way it should be.
Ever vigilant,
Brian Tingley
MelloDad
LEG at cba
writes:
>Now Pepe Notaro had
>another take, God Bless You, Pepe. He stated that if you had to wait until
>last to
>give a ten to allow a better performance, you could give the first corps in
>Finals
>no more than an 8.9 etc, etc, etc because you had to leave room for everyone
>else
>to beat them.
Ahhh. Good ol' Pepe, may he rest in peace. He was always looking for an
angle..
Larry Girard, Jr.
LEG at cba
>We do judge what's going on, but also need to be aware of contest dynamics.
>The
>first job of the judge is to rank and rate. Then if corps #4 is the best in
>the
>show, they should be first and have a spread that reflects their superiority.
>Whether that's a 10.0 to 9.8, 9.9 to a 9.7, or even 8.5 to 8.3, it's still a
>.2
>spread. Rank and rate, old as the hills.
Okay, Jeff, let's try this...
The first corps on the field gets a 5.0, regardless of how good or bad or
whatever. Now the judge has equal room above an below to slot the remaining
performances. The corps must still perform, because they become the
"benchmark" for all the corps to follow. Since we all know that the better
corps are usually on later in the show, usually the scores will go up. But if
someone has a bad night, and we all know it happens, there is room to rank them
below the first corps. Sure, scores from show to show won't mean anything, but
I really question how they can mean much anyway because different judges can
and do rank and rate differently.
For ease of shooting holes in this idea, just print it out, stick it on a
target and fire away. Aiming your .22, 410 or 12 gage at the screen is
hazardous and expensive...
Larry Girard, Jr.
HTGJLG
HTGJLG
>Date: 8/31/98 7:20 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <6sfepd$bbb$1...@news1.cftnet.com>
>As long as the bulk of judging is subjective opinion versus field peformance
>evaluation these problems will exist.
And even if we were to change the judging system.....if we allow non dc judges
to adjudicate the activity these problems will exist.
Herb Gatwood
HTGJLG
>Date: 8/31/98 6:55 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <199808312355...@ladder01.news.aol.com
>You wouldn't see people who had NO IDEA about figure skating judging the
>olympic figure skating competitions.. why NOT require drum corps
>experience??
That's too simple isn't it? Just makes too much sense. How anyone could think
that a person that has no dc experience can judge the activity is, IMO, a
blantant example of poor leadership. There are people out there who can get
the job done and who have adequate dc experience. You just have to look for
them. You don't take anything or anyone who wants to judge.
>Just because you know about music, doesn't automatically mean you would be
>good
>at judging drum corps.. and just because you know about dance doesn't mean
>you should be judging colorguard..
Agree. You must know and understand dc music. You must know and understand dc
marching and the limitations of both. You do not get the experience at the
expense of the young men and women on the field. That is wrong.
>I say require PRE-REQUISITE DRUM CORPS EXPERIENCE from the professionals we
>place the power of determination with.. it makes sense.
Agree again!!!!!!!
>Perhaps.. and I'm just saying perhaps.. the ABSENCE of drum corps
>experience
>in the judging community is what has led us down the path of creative
>righteousness we are trapped on today..
Not perhaps Stefanie.......it is a major contributor to the contrived direction
of the creative side of this activity.
Herb Gatwood
JB GALAHAD
>in a marching band are two completely different things. Quit trying to make
>them the same.
And HOW are they different things?
Other than the time that being a summer activity allows, I see little
diference.
Mike (mda...@ets.org)
JB GALAHAD
>be as objective as possible in a wholly SUBJECTIVE judging system.
You can get an equivalent experience in a competitive marching band, IMHO.
> the ABSENCE of drum corps experience
>in the judging community is what has led us down the path of creative
>righteousness we are trapped on today..
I take you see today in a negative light? I don't.
Mike )mda...@ets.org)
JB GALAHAD
She is an administrator, not a band director now.
And I doubt that she would or could stop a kid who wanted to march DC from
doing so.
>She is a woodwind player judging brass.
So. It happens in band all the time. Also, her dad who you mentioned was a
percussionist judging brass.
>How about brass experience to judge brass Mike or is that too much of a
>stretch?
Well, as a music teacher prior to becomingan administrator, she has had LOTS of
experience evaluating and teaching brass players.
>As long as the bulk of judging is subjective opinion versus field peformance
>evaluation these problems will exist.
What are 'these problems'?
Mike (mda...@ets.org)
MIKE DUFFY
JB GALAHAD wrote:
Mike,
I hear lot difference:-)
Mc"G"
Dennis E. Sparrow
>>Marching in a drum corps and marching
>>in a marching band are two completely different things. Quit trying to make
>>them the same.
>
>And HOW are they different things?
>
>Other than the time that being a summer activity allows, I see little
>diference.
>
How are they different? Heh. Get real, Mike. I could go on all night as to how
a drum corps differs from a band. I suppose that you would see no difference
between a Camaro and a Mustang either, would you? A truck and a car? A man and
a woman? Arrrgghhh. I will leave this to the vultures to pick apart. This has
got to be some of the worse tasting bait that I have nibbled on this year.
Ptoooey.
Dennis E. Sparrow
GArmani42
>got to be some of the worse tasting bait that I have nibbled on this year.
>Ptoooey.
<pick pick> <nibble nibble>
no hard feelings:
whoever thinks a band is the same as a drum corps... ( I )... there is no
similarity between the two, other than the fact that we may sometimes use the
same field. if drum corps were able to field 300 people, we would fill the
stands everytime. scary thought, huh? can you imagine 150 horns? <ring> can't
even hear 150 in the band cuz half of them are flutes (no offense), and still
do symmetrical drill . and the entire book, brass, percussion, guard, visual,
is so much more mature at the drum corps level. i know there are some bad ass
bands out there, but even those can't be compared to drum corps. there are some
not-so-good corps out there too, but we would never say they're like bands,
would we? don't forget that this is a generalization, so don't tell me about
your specific show to make an argument. thanks.
darryl "damn i'm gonna get ripped for this one" =0)
i hope dennis has my back on this one
gam...@balibeyond.com
"Mark Fosdick" <fo...@penn.com> wrote:
> I found out that in the early eightys (or maybee 70's) SCV got a perfect
> score in GE under the tick system. Now we all no you can't get a perfect
> score but under the tick system which everyone says is so much better
> someone got a perfect in GE. How can you get a perfect in GE its imposible.
> So don't complain about how perfects couldn't happen in the tick system.
> Because they did.
General effect has always been a build up caption. It has nothing to do with
ticks. Ticks are for execution.
mda...@ets.org
MIKE DUFFY <mike-...@att.net> wrote:
>
>
> JB GALAHAD wrote:
>
> > >Marching in a drum corps and marching
> > >in a marching band are two completely different things. Quit trying to
make
> > >them the same.
> >
> > And HOW are they different things?
> >
> > Other than the time that being a summer activity allows, I see little
> > diference.
> >
> >
>
>
> I hear lot difference:-)
>
> Mc"G"
>
>
Not as much as you might think! :-)
Or like. :-)
Mike
mda...@ets.org
"Dennis E. Sparrow" <DSpa...@Brick.Net> wrote:
> How are they different? Heh. Get real, Mike. I could go on all night as to
how
> a drum corps differs from a band.
Oh? I don't see all that much difference, in music arrangements, drill
writing, and the joy the kids get in performing/competing. The fact that DC
is a summer-time activity allows for a highly focussed, time intensive drive
for perfection at the top of the genre' that is impossible in a scholastic
situation, but even there the best in the country come pretty darn close.
mda...@ets.org
tin...@telusplanet.net wrote:
>
>
> mda...@ets.org wrote:
>
> > In article <35EAC6C5...@att.net>,
> > MIKE DUFFY <mike-...@att.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Notabando wrote:
> > >
> > > > anaanaanaanaaaaaaastopguppyzoopinda houzzzcuz
> > > > boyboytodascuppydirtyragesasanononono
> > > >
> > > > heychaheychaheychahdyf0ijsargi]jpt
> > >
> > > In a "Nut Shell!!"
> > >
> > >
> >
> > It's really amazing how NOTABANDO manages to condense the issues down to
their
> > essentials.
> >
> > How can anyone disagree with him?
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
>
> I don't want to be seen as contrarian or nit picky, but shouldn't that be:
>
> boyboyTODDYascuppydirtyragesasnononono
>
> I am willing to stand corrected, but it seems to me that's the way it should
be.
>
> Ever vigilant,
> Brian Tingley
> MelloDad
>
>
Brian,
You say po-tay-to
He says po-tah-to
You say "boyboyTODDYascuppydirtyragesasnononono".
He says "boyboytodascuppydirtyragesasanononono".
Potayto,
Potahto
boyboyTODDYascuppydirtyragesasnononono,
boyboytodascuppydirtyragesasanononono
Let's call the whole thing off.
:-)
mda...@ets.org
gam...@balibeyond.com wrote:
>
>Ticks are for execution.
>
And Trix are for kids. :-)
FrankAreMe
>
>
No Mike you can't. There is one HUGE difference between drum corps and
band---well there use to be--and that is the sound! Bands just can't match the
sound.
Frank
Jeff
LEG at cba wrote:
> In article <35EA149F...@prodigy.net>, Jeff <JEFFMI...@prodigy.net>
> writes:
>
> >We do judge what's going on, but also need to be aware of contest dynamics.
> >The
> >first job of the judge is to rank and rate. Then if corps #4 is the best in
> >the
> >show, they should be first and have a spread that reflects their superiority.
> >Whether that's a 10.0 to 9.8, 9.9 to a 9.7, or even 8.5 to 8.3, it's still a
> >.2
> >spread. Rank and rate, old as the hills.
>
> Okay, Jeff, let's try this...
>
> The first corps on the field gets a 5.0, regardless of how good or bad or
> whatever.
Now, Pepe had refined this theory back in the 70's, which he dubbed "The X Factor."
He postulated, as only he could, that the first corps out receive no mark. Then
other corps would go up or down by whatever the judge deemed appropriate. At the
end of the show the judge could them define what number X would be.
> Now the judge has equal room above an below to slot the remaining
> performances. The corps must still perform, because they become the
> "benchmark" for all the corps to follow. Since we all know that the better
> corps are usually on later in the show, usually the scores will go up. But if
> someone has a bad night, and we all know it happens, there is room to rank them
> below the first corps.
If you don't have the balls to drop a corps that has an off-night, starting with a
5.0 won't make a difference. A judge needs to have the ability to maintain the
courage of his convictions, despite previous results and the critique. The only
time numbers management truly becomes an issue is at focus shows and during
championships, where you have all corps together. For instance, if the Cadets have
a bad or great show during first season, the drop or rise in scoring won't affect
the placement like it would in Quarters, Semis, and Finals. We do try to get the
best panels in the big shows. Not every soprano is ready to be a soloist and not
every judge is ready to judge DCI Finals.
> Sure, scores from show to show won't mean anything, but
> I really question how they can mean much anyway because different judges can
> and do rank and rate differently.
>
Always have and always will. What's the point?
> For ease of shooting holes in this idea, just print it out, stick it on a
> target and fire away. Aiming your .22, 410 or 12 gage at the screen is
> hazardous and expensive...
>
Nah, my 17" AcerView 76e is a 10.0!!! Why does everyone try to improve the judging
system? No matter what is done, someone will come in first, someone last, and
everyone else somewhere in between. Of course, excepting the occasional tie.
Regardless of what we do, judging will be controversial. Corps that lose by a tenth
will be search the recap to find out who screwed them. Fans will always cheer a
corps that doesn't score as highly as they felt deserved. This was always part of
the activity and will continue for the forseeable future.
Jeff
PS I can't wait to see the Sky Alumni Corps
Jeff
FrankAreMe wrote:
Pomona HS from Colorado and Carmel HS from Indiana did at BOA in 1996. Man those
kids played with all the sound you would ever want to hear.
Jeff, as a band judge
Jeff
Bill Haas wrote:
> >>It is the best way to determine who makes the least errors, i.e.
> execution, but this
> >>does not always correspond in who has the best brass or percussion
> section.
>
> Jeff, am I to understand that execution doesn't matter as long as the most
> talented horn line is rewarded with the highest score?
Nope, look at this fictional recap.
July 29, 1979 Oshkosh, WI
Corps Brass Ex #1 Brass Ex #2 Total Music
Analysis Brass Total
Clean Machine 13.6 13.3
13.45 8.3 21.75
Swell Sounds 13.1 13.2
13.15 8.8 21.95
And the award for High Brass goes to .................... Swell Sounds
I won't bother to reply on RAMD to rest of your illogical diatribe. Check your
e-mail.
Jeff, master ex-ticker
Bill Haas
mda...@ets.org wrote in message <6sgtb9$e53$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <3DMG1.521$cl1.6...@news1.i1.net>,
> "Dennis E. Sparrow" <DSpa...@Brick.Net> wrote:
>
>
>> How are they different? Heh. Get real, Mike. I could go on all night as
to
>how
>> a drum corps differs from a band.
>
>Oh? I don't see all that much difference, in music arrangements, drill
>writing, and the joy the kids get in performing/competing. The fact that DC
>is a summer-time activity allows for a highly focussed, time intensive
drive
>for perfection at the top of the genre' that is impossible in a scholastic
>situation, but even there the best in the country come pretty darn close.
>
>Mike
Mike
This is becoming monotonous. Bands and drum corps are the same. Why?
Because Mike Davis says it is so. And every once in a while, when you
realize the 'they are the same' line won't work, out comes the Mike Davis
soapbox - If they were to be the same "that would be all good by me".
Drum corps are only better because they are summer activity and time
intensive but "even there the best (bands) in the country come pretty darn
close" In Your Humble Opinion. I am not going to pursue arguing the
differences because many have tried and you are a chameleon who changes
words and meaning to support---what is it you do support Mike?
I know you support the kids. I know you support a woodwind player's right
to march in a marching music ensemble the caliber of CBC. I also know you
accept your school policy which in effect, if not intent, denies your brass
and percussion players the opportunity to march your band and drum corps.
On changing CBC to a band: "They'd still be the CBC, just with different
instruments. The heart and soul remain the same, which is the important
part,
IMHO." Change to band and the heart, soul and body of CBC the drum corps
dies Mike. As does an important piece of drum corps tradition and history.
I wonder how the rest of the Cadets alumni feel about what you so quickly
give away.
You don't care if drum corps choose to become bands. You don't care if drum
corps remain drum corps. These are your statements:
"I've said that if a DC wanted to become a band, it would be OK with me. "
"I'm not dying for them to change, but if they did it wouldn't bother me. "
But the main gist is you may like drum corps, but you have little or no
feeling for the survival of the activity, the continuation of the history,
tradition and the sound of a drum corps on a hot summer night. I personally
love drum corps and will fight for its survival. You choose to sit in your
la-z-boy with your keyboard on your lap and say, I like band I like drum
corps, it's win / win for me.
I am not going to debate you any more on this issue, it is meaningless. You
are the posting example of how the YEA! assimilation has begun, is taking
hold and must be fought.
Bill Haas
ScribeToo
>
>
Mike,
that would be incorrect. I was raised on "today's drum corps" but I also
recognize that the judging system we have is pushing us further and further
away from our roots.
and for the record, NO, I do not agree that you can get an equivalent
experience in a competitive marching band. I was in one. We were very
competitive.. we were successful with a "drum corps style" show.. we slept on
gym floors, we toured our part of the country to compete at other levels with
regional competitors.. we did the BOA thing (Indianapolis, 1986).. BUT I do not
believe and I will firmly not believe until the day I die that what I got out
of my marching band experience is the same or even similar to what the kids I
volunteer with today get from THEIR DRUM CORPS experience.
you cannot argue this point, Mike.. I won't go over it again. It is NOT the
same. It will NEVER BE the same. It SHOULD never be the same.
Period.
Drum corps experience for ALL DCI judges. Period.
Stefanie
ScribeToo
>is a summer-time activity allows for a highly focussed, time intensive drive
>for perfection at the top of the genre' that is impossible in a scholastic
>situation, but even there the best in the country come pretty darn close.
>
>Mike
Mike..
ever heard the phrase "close but no cigar.."??
Stefanie
BratDawg
ScribeToo wrote:
Close only counts in Horseshoes and Hand Grenades....
GArmani42
very similar to drum corps. u put the best band out there against the best drum
corps and u will hear a BIG, BIG.....HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!!! i expressed my rude
opinion yesterday, so i won't again. but stop fooling yourself...PLEASE!!!!!
darryl =0)
MIKE DUFFY
mda...@ets.org wrote:
> In article <35EB92E0...@att.net>,
> MIKE DUFFY <mike-...@att.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > JB GALAHAD wrote:
> >
> > > >Marching in a drum corps and marching
> > > >in a marching band are two completely different things. Quit trying to
> make
> > > >them the same.
> > >
> > > And HOW are they different things?
> > >
> > > Other than the time that being a summer activity allows, I see little
> > > diference.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > I hear lot difference:-)
> >
> > Mc"G"
>
> Not as much as you might think! :-)
>
> Or like. :-)
>
>
Mike,
I really do hear "Lot" difference, way more often than not:-)
Mc"G"
mda...@ets.org
scri...@aol.com (ScribeToo) wrote:
> >I take you see today in a negative light? I don't.
> >
> >
>
> Mike,
>
> that would be incorrect. I was raised on "today's drum corps" but I also
> recognize that the judging system we have is pushing us further and further
> away from our roots.
>
If it's anything, it's the show designers, not the judges. They judge to the
criteria that has been agreed upon in advance. Plus, the activity has been
evolving constantly; it's NEVER stood still. So in that light, it's ALWAYS
been moving further and further from it's 'roots'. It's called growing. A
tree grows further and further from IT'S roots as well, and eventually
becomes a giant redwood (or maybe a picnic set :-) ).
> I will firmly not believe until the day I die that what I got out
> of my marching band experience is the same or even similar to what the kids I
> volunteer with today get from THEIR DRUM CORPS experience.
>
OK, that's YOUR opinion. Mine is different. Let's agree to disagree, as
neither of us is going to change the other on this one.
> Drum corps experience for ALL DCI judges. Period.
>
Desirable, but not mandatory, esp the music judges.
Terri Dittrich
>
> In article <35EB92E0...@att.net>,
> MIKE DUFFY <mike-...@att.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > JB GALAHAD wrote:
> >
> > > >Marching in a drum corps and marching
> > > >in a marching band are two completely different things. Quit trying to
> make
> > > >them the same.
> > >
> > > And HOW are they different things?
> > >
> > > Other than the time that being a summer activity allows, I see little
> > > diference.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > I hear lot difference:-)
> >
> > Mc"G"
> >
> >
>
> Not as much as you might think! :-)
>
> Or like. :-)
>
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
midwest!
-Terri
Martin McIsaac
>
>
> And HOW are they different things?
>
> Other than the time that being a summer activity allows, I see little
> diference.
Mike, it's time for you to pick up the sticks again. Maybe you should
consider marching a Senior Corps. You're making these statements relying
on personal performing experiences now over twenty five years old.
I marched a parade last Sunday. Also at this parade where a couple of
fairly large bands. The bands and my corps took turns playing a concert
number.
The look of awe on the faces of these bandos was priceless. I thought a
couple of the clarinet palyers were gonna swallow their reeds. Bands
will NEVER duplicate the "wall of sound" a good drum corps produces. The
difference between the two activities are still huge and even larger
close up.
Please, enough of this "there's nothing wrong with a melding of the
two."
Marty McIsaac
GArmani42
IN A BAND AND DRUM CORPS...WHICH ONE IS BETTER??? i think that if we all get
the opinions of people who marched both, we should get some pretty creditable
answers. me first:
DRUM CORPS!!!!! band sucked.
mike continuously argues:
Dennis E. Sparrow
>
>If it's anything, it's the show designers, not the judges. They judge to the
>criteria that has been agreed upon in advance. Plus, the activity has been
>evolving constantly; it's NEVER stood still. So in that light, it's ALWAYS
>been moving further and further from it's 'roots'. It's called growing. A
>tree grows further and further from IT'S roots as well, and eventually
>becomes a giant redwood (or maybe a picnic set :-) ).
Bad analogy, Mike. The activity is NOT growing. The tree is diseased. It is
small, puny, and weak. It must be destroyed.
Dennis "The Lumberjack" Sparrow
LEG at cba
frank...@aol.com (FrankAreMe) writes:
>Wow Larry, I'm just amazed that you actually have a copy of that!!! Wish
>Istill had mine!
Actually, it was in a folder full of music my dad had saved. Dreitzer
arrangements, some Greater NY Circuit stuff and some judging sheets.
Larry G.
SplinterGr
>Why does everyone try to improve the judging
system?
Two answers:
1. Because we're all too old to march juniors, and we have to have SOMETHING to
occupy our minds, and
2. Because the system occasionally rewards design work which is antithetical to
the nature of drum and bugle corps. If there were a "Pretension" subcaption
which penalized corps for overreaching, I suppose things would get back to
even...(and there'd have less of a chance that Crown or Magic would have made
finals in 96)
I've stated on another thread here that the "ranking" part of ranking and
rating is actually an impossible thing to fairly do until you've seen ALL of
the performances on a given night. I still judge competitions for high school
speech and theatre on occasion, and the system there is all about rank - which
we hold off doing until the end of a given round.
If this were done in drum corps, then the assigning of numbers could be held
off until the rankings are determined. If THIS were done, the infamous 9.9 and
10.0 scores might disappear, because there'd be no need to have them inflated
up by dint of the bottom scores.
Just a thought...
Matt
mda...@ets.org
bosc...@erols.com wrote:
> JB GALAHAD wrote:
> >
> >
> > And HOW are they different things?
> >
> > Other than the time that being a summer activity allows, I see little
> > diference.
>
> I marched a parade last Sunday. Also at this parade where a couple of
> fairly large bands. The bands and my corps took turns playing a concert
> number.
> The look of awe on the faces of these bandos was priceless. I thought a
> couple of the clarinet palyers were gonna swallow their reeds.
Well, you see the same thing when average bands look at bands such as Norwalk
and Dartmouth, to name a couple of great ones I've judged.
>Bands
> will NEVER duplicate the "wall of sound" a good drum corps produces.
Not that I totally agree, but even if true, so what? There is more to the
activity than creating a 'wall of sound'. Look at what I posted in the Band
vs. corps thread on some of the things I feel ARE the same.
> Please, enough of this "there's nothing wrong with a melding of the
> two."
I've never stressed 'melding' the two. I like bands; I like corps. And, I see
little substantive difference in the experience both provide to the marching
members.
Sure, at the top of DCI you have the very best, but to me that is NOT the
important part of the activity.
MIKE DUFFY
mda...@ets.org wrote:
> If it's anything, it's the show designers, not the judges. They judge to the
> criteria that has been agreed upon in advance. Plus, the activity has been
> evolving constantly; it's NEVER stood still. So in that light, it's ALWAYS
> been moving further and further from it's 'roots'. It's called growing. A
> tree grows further and further from IT'S roots as well, and eventually
> becomes a giant redwood (or maybe a picnic set :-) ).
Actually, Mr. Tree "Stays the course" in a fixed position and grows upward from it's foundation. The "Roots"
grow away from the tree:-)
Martin McIsaac
> Well, you see the same thing when average bands look at bands such as Norwalk
> and Dartmouth, to name a couple of great ones I've judged.
Mike, no offense to either you or Cadet Mom, Dartmouth shares a couple
of annual parade events with my corps. The past couple of years, we've
awed the Dartmouth d.l. just warming up. The kids themselves were great
asking us countless questions afterward. Please bear in mind, my d.l.
averages around 45 years of age. We are also not the world most perfect
physical specimans. I have had two shoulder ops in the past 4 months.
The tenor/friend I've marched next to the past 4 years is having his
second knee op after DCA's. The line itself needs more tape, balm and
painkillers to do an event than any NFL team... The point is, Drum Corps
has always produced a much more dedicated participant than any other
musical activity. That "quest for performance perfection" is found very
rarely nowadays. Certainly not in marching band....
> Not that I totally agree, but even if true, so what? There is more to the
> activity than creating a 'wall of sound'.
What attracted you to this activity years ago, diesel fumes? "That wall
of sound" and the precision in which it was presented, has always and
will always seperate these two activities.
Mike it has less to do with instrumentation and far more to do with
attitude.
Marty McIsaac
mda...@ets.org
bosc...@erols.com wrote:
> mda...@ets.org wrote:
>
> > Well, you see the same thing when average bands look at bands such as
Norwalk
> > and Dartmouth, to name a couple of great ones I've judged.
>
> Mike, no offense to either you or Cadet Mom, Dartmouth shares a couple
> of annual parade events with my corps. The past couple of years, we've
> awed the Dartmouth d.l. just warming up.
It would take quite a bit to 'awe' that percussion section, as some of them
march in the CBC. I'm sure they appreciated great drumming, as any line taught
by Tom Aungst would.
> The point is, Drum Corps
> has always produced a much more dedicated participant than any other
> musical activity.
Not really, IMHO. DC has the luxury of being during thge sumer, when the
dedication can really be put to the test, that I do see. But, there are LOTS
of dedicated band and orchestra kids around the country who practice for
hours on end, but have to factor in all of the other academic requirements of
the school year.
> > Not that I totally agree, but even if true, so what? There is more to the
> > activity than creating a 'wall of sound'.
>
> What attracted you to this activity years ago, diesel fumes? "That wall
> of sound" and the precision in which it was presented, has always and
> will always seperate these two activities.
>
Well, actually I joined becuase my dad was a member of a VFW post that
sponsored a Garden State corps. I was only 10 1/2 at the time (the '1/2'
being QUITE important then!).
> Mike it has less to do with instrumentation and far more to do with
> attitude.
>
Well, there are LOTS of great bands with pretty darn close to the same
attitude a DC has. Of course, the absolute level of perfection won't top the
DCI finalist, but they come pretty darn close, IMHO.
I'm not going to change your opinion, and you're not going to change mine,
obviously.
Which is perfectly OK.
Take care,
Jeff
SplinterGr wrote:
> Jeff wrote
> >Why does everyone try to improve the judging
> system?
>
> Two answers:
> 1. Because we're all too old to march juniors, and we have to have SOMETHING to
> occupy our minds, and
LOL! Great point.
> 2. Because the system occasionally rewards design work which is antithetical to
> the nature of drum and bugle corps. If there were a "Pretension" subcaption
> which penalized corps for overreaching, I suppose things would get back to
> even...(and there'd have less of a chance that Crown or Magic would have made
> finals in 96)
>
You might look back and see this happening earlier than 1996. Maybe even before
DCI.
> I've stated on another thread here that the "ranking" part of ranking and
> rating is actually an impossible thing to fairly do until you've seen ALL of
> the performances on a given night. I still judge competitions for high school
> speech and theatre on occasion, and the system there is all about rank - which
> we hold off doing until the end of a given round.
>
> If this were done in drum corps, then the assigning of numbers could be held
> off until the rankings are determined. If THIS were done, the infamous 9.9 and
> 10.0 scores might disappear, because there'd be no need to have them inflated
> up by dint of the bottom scores.
>
I greatly enjoy giving out those high numbers at the end of the season. Ken Turner,
former DCI Judge Administrator, would always pull me aside before my Championship
week and say, "Mitchell, you've got 15 points use'em." It is a way of rewarding the
finest the activity has to offer that season, not a means of insulting old-timers
who remember a 92.75 as a worthy 1st place score.
Jeff
MaureenGreene
> >another take, God Bless You, Pepe. He stated that if you had to wait until
> >last to
> >give a ten to allow a better performance, you could give the first corps in
> >Finals
> >no more than an 8.9 etc, etc, etc because you had to leave room for everyone
> >else
> >to beat them.
>
> Ahhh. Good ol' Pepe, may he rest in peace. He was always looking for an
> angle..
>
> Larry Girard, Jr.
And clever enough to find one...
of course, he'd never even have been in drum corps had he been born int
he last 20 years, let alone taught and inspired 1000's....
makes you wonder doesn't it!
fran...@nospamconcentric.net
>> I also remember watching Captain Crunch (Joe
>>Bruno) "ground" his saber right before the T&P judge picked it up and ticked
>>him for dropped equipment........funny stuff
>
>That reminds me, if you dropped a piece of equipment you where not allowed to
>pick it up, you had to wait for a judge to give it to you. Go figure.
>RAR...@AOL.COM (Pete Reynolds)(Bluecoats75-77)
Of course, at that time, when the judge picked it up, you were usually
still in the area. Today, you're likely to be on the other side of
the field before it hits the ground.
f
Please remove NO SPAM to reply
Michael Cahill
>
> In article <35ED8C...@erols.com>,
> bosc...@erols.com wrote:
>
> > The point is, Drum Corps
> > has always produced a much more dedicated participant than any other
> > musical activity.
First I'll disagree with Marty. There are other musical activities that
produce dedication on par with drum corps. Even attempting to make a living in
music these days requires dedication of the first order.
Now I'll disagree with Mike - not a shock.
> Not really, IMHO. DC has the luxury of being during thge sumer, when the
> dedication can really be put to the test, that I do see.
I guess you don't see the dedication in the winter program? When kids have to
juggle all the scholastic things you mention WHILE attending camps most often
a good drive away from them if not a plane trip.
Summer luxury? When many kids are doing whatever they please, corps members
dedicate their entire vacation to this activity. And they PAY for the
privilege. Last I checked they weren't paying dues to march HS bands or
driving to different states/cities either.
> But, there are LOTS of dedicated band and orchestra kids around the country who > practice for hours on end,
Really? Lots? I'm sure there are some, but in my experience the practice time
isn't in the hours on end range.
> but have to factor in all of the other academic requirements of
> the school year.
And the corps kids do this WHILE adding corps rehearsals to the mix. I guess
you think the kids who march corps are drop outs?
> Well, there are LOTS of great bands with pretty darn close to the same
> attitude a DC has.
List LOTS of them please.
--
Michael Cahill
"Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless,
and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful" Samuel Johnson.
Michael Cahill
Michael Cahill
Michael Cahill
fran...@concentric.net
wrote:
>And as I recall, you got nailed for a 1/10th penalty for dropping equipment,
>and a full point penalty if you picked it up.
>
Do you recall the penalty for falling on the field? And the added
penalty for getting back up (which meant, if you fell, it was best to
play dead and let the ambulance crew come and cart you off.)
F
RARIDAN
>thing off...?
When I marched, we maintained a "Colors" unit only for VFW and American Legion
competitions. They marched onto the field and presented the colors in the
corner where they stayed until the end of the show. I remember that we got
ticked once or twice for flag violations.
VFW and American Legion competitions also had inspection lines prior to the
preformance.
During DCI and Great Lakes competitions we didn't use our Colors and flag
violations didn't exist.
Of course we had to start the show from off the field, 4 hardy fellows had to
carry the tympani and no one had even considered a "pit". Things change.
RAR...@AOL.COM (Pete Reynolds)(Bluecoats75-77)
RARIDAN
Glen Johnson
>Of course we had to start the show from off the field, 4 hardy fellows had to
>carry the tympani and no one had even considered a "pit". Things change.
>RAR...@AOL.COM (Pete Reynolds)(Bluecoats75-77)
I carried a 29" timp for the Skyliners in 1980 and 1981. In '81, they let us,
at some point during the show, take the timps across the front sideline and
put 'em down. I don't think we were allowed to be grounded for the entire
show. But '81 was the last time we marched timps in the drill.
I left the corps at the end of the '81 season, came back in '85 hoping to play
timps in the pit, but that was the year nearly the whole drum line quit over
the Wes Myers fiasco and they conned me into playing quads. In '86 I got to
play timps in the pit. It was great not having to lug that damned drum around.
And I'll be playing those SAME 4 timps in the alumni show on Sunday. Those
drums are over 25 years old, and I can't believe they still even crank.
-------------------------------
www.uspapermoney.com
The #1 Web Site for US Currency
Glen Johnson
and a full point penalty if you picked it up.
In article <35f0948a...@news.concentric.net>,
fran...@NOSPAMconcentric.net wrote:
>On 5 Sep 1998 01:48:48 GMT, rar...@aol.com (RARIDAN) wrote:
>
>Of course, at that time, when the judge picked it up, you were usually
>still in the area. Today, you're likely to be on the other side of
>the field before it hits the ground.
>
>f
>
>
>Please remove NO SPAM to reply
-------------------------------
BratDawg
Michael Cahill wrote:
> Last I checked they weren't paying dues to march HS bands or
> driving to different states/cities either.
Excuse me Michael...far be it for me to want to jump into the arg...er...discussion
between you and Mr.Davis, but in all fairness I wanted to point out that there are indeed dues involved for HS
bands, albeit nothing like corps. With that being said...
Carry on...
Steve
sai...@one.net
>Boy, I remember those days...
>
>A rifleman(woman) had to "air-toss" until a judge handed back the dropped
>equipment...
>
>And it was hilarious to see a snare drummer with one stick during a section
>"solo" (of course, that was rival corps...)
>Heh...
>
>
I still remember the famous "Air Baritone" line at US Open...
The field was wet (is it ever dry at Marion?) and with the after warm up
"Ready...Front"...one 2nd Bari's mouthpiece went flying and landed (of course)
shank down in the mud....
Then with the famous Dave St. Angel "Horn Flip" a lead Bari's rotary slide
went the way of the 2nd's mouthpiece...
I, at least, waited until we were OTL...I had the joy of finding that
infamous hole on the backfield 35 and split my upper lip!! Blood
everywhere....
Michael "Yes..that hole at Marion is still there" Kolle
*** If memory serves me a Contra sheared a rotary pin that show too!
brosie
the field this year at retreat that wasn't laughing at the announcer.
"And .. in 3rd place.... CAROLINA CROWN!!!!"
[from the audience] "What was the score????"
"With a score of 80.3 ... eight zero point zero..."
"From Bergenfield North New Jersey ..... The Cadets of Bergen County!!!"
"From Marion, Ohio, THE MADISON SCOUTS!"
"From Menashua Wisconsin, The Americanos!!"
.. and many many more.
sai...@one.net wrote in message <35f12...@news.one.net>...
Dennis E. Sparrow
>The "Yogi" turn. I still get a rise when I see one now.
Hmmm. A "rise" in what may I ask?
>-Terri
Dennis