MUCHACHOS AFTER `75 - WHAT HAPPENED?
SplntrGrp
I have no idea why this popped into my head at 5:00 this morning, but...
Why, after spending all season threatening to take the DCI title from
Madison in 75, did the Muchachos so completely implode? Other corps have
suffered the consequences of being dq'd without folding right away
(Bridgemen), so why couldn't Hawthorne? Any East Coasters care to fill me
in?
Side question (never thought to ask the old man himself): How did Don
Warren come by the information about over-age members?
Matt
Michael Anthony Smit
SplntrGrp (spln...@aol.com) wrote:
: I have no idea why this popped into my head at 5:00 this morning, but...
: Matt
Let's wait to answer this one 'till *after* the 25th...:-)(just a
suggestion)
Merry Christmas
Happy New Year
Pah-rump-ah-pumb-pumm (the attack is the hard part to clean...:-)
MikeS.
Daniel Marion
They didn't completely implode-- they were on the field in '76.
SplntrGrp
>They didn't completely implode-- they were on the field in '76.
`76 I knew about. `77, ok, I'll take your word (they were being real quiet
about it and never left New Jersey apparently?)
OK, I'll rephrase the original question. What happened to the kids in the
corps who were contending for a DCI Championship in 1975? They weren't ALL
over-age. The `76 corps was an also ran down in the bottom of the
Associate levels, and completely gone a year or so later. Going from a
possible 1st or 2nd in DCI to being 19th or 20th in one year is a hell of
a drop. How did this happen?
Matt
RMurray505
GEORGE 82
Speaking of the 1975 Muchachos....everyone's gotta check out Vanessa
Williams' new Christmas CD "Star Bright". This venture was produced by
1975 Muchacho sop soloist Jeff Kievet. Not only does Jeff serve as
producer but performs on a number of tracks along with Ms. Willams. It's
a good listen!
Chet Doboe
In <19961224071...@ladder01.news.aol.com> geor...@aol.com
Christmas show, which included Will Lee from Letterman's band and
drummer Shaun Pelton from Saturday Night Live. The show was burning
and the six person horn section, including Kievet was excellent. Jeff
is an excellent player,,,,very impressive. By the way if any of you
ever get the chance to see Rob Mathes and/or his Christmas show, Check
it out you won't be disappointed!
Chet Doboe
Hip Pickles
http://www.hippickles.com
Ps. Star Bright,,,the title cut on Vanessa Williams is written by Rob
Mathes.
JEC
In article <19961223160...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, spln...@aol.com
says...
<snip>
>Side question (never thought to ask the old man himself): How did Don
>Warren come by the information about over-age members?
>
>Matt
My high school band director was involved in the Garden State Curcuit back
then. Mind you he was a Muchachos fan. He claims that a member of the Scouts
who the year before marched with the Cavies recognize a Muchachos
xylaphone(sp.) player that had aged out of the Cavies the year before. They
discovered this early in the season but didn't say anything until it looked
like the Muchachos might win. The Scouts got the Cavies to blow the whistle to
DCI after prelims.
James Copeland, Jr.
Thomas Corso
I will only add to the rumor since I was not there!!! What I have heard
(and do not over interpret this) is that the Muchachos had over 20 mayby
30 overage members. They were warned repeatedly by DCI to clean up their
act. It is also rumored that when people were cut, their identity (along
with a fake ID) was given to one of the overage members. Members were
told to never give up their driver's license. One of the members that
Had just aged out (and was 22 by only a few weeks, if that much) had
dated the sister of a Cavalier. A formal complaint was given to DCI by
Cavaliers (after a meeting of the midwestern corps). Don P. ask this kid
for his ID after the prelims performance and the rest is history. The
scores were never tabulated. Once again, I was not there!!! This is only
what I have heard. The legend is that the Muchachos won prelims (how
ever, they lost to Blue Devils the previous week). They had a strong
hornline, drumline and questionable marching show. I personally believe
that the Scouts would have won that show anyway even if Muchachos were in
it.
Tom in St. Louis
jfl...@1st-coast.com
In article <5a0tuf$29...@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>,
RXH...@prodigy.com (Thomas Corso) wrote:
>I will only add to the rumor since I was not there!!! I personally believe
>it.
>
>Tom in St. Louis
>
Tom - I "was" there.....
First - Muchachos had a couple overage members - not 20 or 30 as the rumor
mill has built it to. This wasn't unusual as there were overage members in
nearly every eastern DCI corps out there.....it was something that neither DCI
or the old VFW / AL had really taken seriously prior to '75. In fact, one
very well known eastern corps from that time period actually marched a few
shows with instructors on the field just so they could "get a feel for the
show from inside." One of these instructors is now in the DCI Hall of Fame.
Stephen Ford
I can't shed any light on the situation even though I was there. Tom
Corso does make a couple of points that need a response, however.
Muchachos "questionable drill?????" That was one of the cleanest
performances I've ever seen. The writing was competitive, but the
technique and execution were something today's corps can only dream about.
Overage was not just an Eastern corps problem in those days. Does anyone
remember how many holes the Kilties marched that night? There were blanks
in Blue Stars as well. Several midwestern corps made no bones about their
lack of age restrictions. I don't think the overage members detracted
from the great Des Plaines Vanguard shows.
How did DCI "warn the Muchachos all season" when the regular season shows
were independent in those days. DCI only ran the championship.
Wayne Ford
Tim O'Mara
Being a drum corps member during that era I resent the implication of
"nearly every eastern DCI corps out there" marching overage members. I
marched in a very eastern DCI corps (New Jersey) and we did not march
overage members.
Karen
Tim O'Mara
BillZman
Well,
Dr. Corso certainly makes a good point in his lucid reference to the
Muchahco age issue. I was around those days and remember what it was
like. You did what ever you had to fill "holes"...! I remember 1976 when
we we in the first tour down south ( Drums Along The South) The Crossmen
were disqualified due to over age members. When we got to Rockford that
season, Don Pesceone(sp)
went around to all members before the show and checked our birth
certificates before we were allowed to march...!!! Those were the days my
friend..!!
Louder-Faster-Higher..!!!!!!
Bill Z.( 14A4A-weapon of choice for screamers)
Mr. Daniel Marion
Subject: Re: MUCHACHOS AFTER `75 - WHAT HAPPENED?
75 Muchachos marching technique and execution were something today's
corps can only dream about?? I wonder if you simply can't appreciate
what's going on the field today. There is absolutely no comparison that
can justify a statement like that.. The movements weren't as demanding,
either from a design standpoint or the tempos involved in executing
them. There was little, if any motion by members who couldn't actually
see where they were going....the list could go on. Unfortunately, much
of what today's corps are doing is not appreciated by a sizeable
portion of fans who would rather have endless company fronts, squad
movements, elbow to elbow marching, etc.
Barry N. York
Which one was that? The Bridgemen did the same thing, and
so did Crossmen.
Barry
> Karen
rand...@aol.com
In article <32C6CD...@ix.netcom.com>, "Barry N. York"
<bny...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>Madison must have won based on visual performance, because
>it wasn't GE or musical performance.
Did I hear somebody call for King of Recaps?
1975 was a very interesting year, particularly in GE. SCV scored the only
perfect
GE show, with perfect 10's in GE Brass, GE Percussion & GE M & M,
finishing
with the 30.0 record score.
Madison and 27th tied for 2nd in GE; Madison scored perfect 10's in GE
Brass
and GE Percussion, and 27th scored perfect 10's in GE Brass and GE M & M.
Both corps finished with a tie for 2nd in GE with a 29.7.
A clear caption victory for SCV, with sub-caption victories (ties) for
Madison and
27th.
In Brass, the first execution judge had Madison in first by half a point
over Blue
Devils, 14.4 to 13.9. The second execution judge had Madison in first by
.4 point
over BD, 14.2 to 13.8. The musical analysis (build-up) judge had Madison
in
first, also, with 9.8 to Blue Devils 9.6. A clear caption victory for
Madison.
In Percussion, SCV was powerful. The first execution judge gave the nod
to
SCV over Madison, 19.1 to 18.7. The second execution judge favored SCV
even more, slotting them ahead of Madison 19.7 to 18.6. Again, a clear
caption
victory for SCV.
In M & M, the first execution judge had Madison in first over Blue Stars,
20.6
to 20.3, and the second execution judge also gave the edge to Madison 19.5
to Blue Stars, 19.3. A close, but unanimous caption victory for Madison.
The Muchachos' prelim score has never been released, but undoubtedly would
have made for an interesting contest for first place, considering that
Madison's
two strong captions (Brass & M & M) were also strong captions for
Muchachos.
I, too, have listened to the '75 Muchachos prelim tape and I would have to
give
the edge in Brass to Madison. Macarthur's Park alone best illustrates my
point.
Happy New Year, everyone!
Randy Gardner
Stephen Ford
I suppose I am to simple to understand what's going on with today's
visuals, after all, I've been watching the same movements and formations
since 1983 and still don't care for them. As for technique and execution,
where does it say that today's design negates the need to execute?
One final question, if too many people don't relate to the running
paislies of today's shows, why are they still around?
Wayne Ford
CHEZ
The muchachoes fielded a corps in 1976.In 1977 after the corps dispanded
about 40 or so members joined the GARFIELD CADETS
in 1978 the SAINTS dispanded and about 30 members joined the
cadets.paving the way for the corps from bergen county you have today.
AL DCNUT1
Wayne,
Because they love drum corps. Not for what it is today which is
self-serving, buy for when it was about providing a place other than the
streets for young people to belong and compete. I personally find good and
bad in drum corps today. However if the activity is to servive it must
remember, respect and learn from it's past or it wont be around tomorrow.
Alvin"Gabe" Williams
Richard M. Stuemke
It is impossible to relate the impact of the 75 Muchachos field
presentation thru the internet, especially 21 years later.
Having seen the Muchachos in 1975, I would say that it was probably the
most electrifying field show (brass, drums and M&M) that I ever witnessed.
Far surpassing anything I have viewed from Madison, including 1995.
The Muchachos did beat Blue Devils about a week before the championships
and Madison also, (if memory serves me correctly).
Barry N. York
Mr. Daniel Marion wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: MUCHACHOS AFTER `75 - WHAT HAPPENED?
>
> 75 Muchachos marching technique and execution were something today's
>
> corps can only dream about?? I wonder if you simply can't appreciate
>
> what's going on the field today. There is absolutely no comparison that
>
> can justify a statement like that..
The comparison is difficult since, from a marching perspective,
the activity is quite different.
> The movements weren't as demanding,
>
> either from a design standpoint or the tempos involved in executing
>
> them.
You really cannot say that. Back in the 70's the corps used to
crank up almost all of the tempo's. For a good example of
that listen to SCV 1975 and there music from "...Fiddler...".
Plus, the movements were MORE demanding... as examples,
1) Symmetrical drill is rather difficult. Look at how many corps
do it today. Then look at how many do it well. A good example of
some bad symmetry is a halt in Crossmen 1996.
2) The judge's used to stand at the end of a company front and
tick every single person who was out. They also ticked phasing,
interval, and form. Look at the corps today from the end
zone, and you will see that no corps can even hold a straight line.
3) High Level marching. Try playing and marching like that for more
that a 16 count movement.
4) Precision, precision, and PRECISION. This term must have been
lost in recent drum corps years.
> There was little, if any motion by members who couldn't actually
>
> see where they were going....the list could go on. Unfortunately, much
>
> of what today's corps are doing is not appreciated by a sizeable
>
> portion of fans who would rather have endless company fronts, squad
>
> movements, elbow to elbow marching, etc.
No, we just miss CLEAN, ACCURATE, and precise drill. There is NOTHING
impressive about running around the field.
I have marched in the top-6 this decade, and I can tell you that
we just did not have what the corps in the past were capable of
doing.
Barry
Barry N. York
My opinion here is that it comes down to the fact that the
persons who inherited the design crowns, inherited them from
better designers. It was new in 1983.
I am glad that you said that, because the only MAJOR change that
I can see in drum corps since 1983, is the idea of only playing
"theme-oriented" shows... and these are no longer new ideas
either.
Barry
Stephen Ford
Barry,
I agree with your observations about this thread. Its even more valid
coming from someone who has competed in this era. As to theme shows,
they're not new to this decade. You may recall Garfield's revolutionary
war show of 1971 or Des Plaines Vanguard's war and peace show of 1972.
They were truly unique and innovative. The difference in the activity is
that these shows were appreciated, but every other corps did not feel
compelled to move in lock step to copy the concept.
Wayne
Mr. Daniel Marion
Subject: Re: MUCHACHOS AFTER `75 - WHAT HAPPENED?
Wayne:
In no way did I mean to impose that you were "simple"- If you felt
that that was my meaning, or my tone, I apologize- that's not what I'm
about. But I'd be interested to hear if , before 83, you were NOT
seeing the same movements and formations? I sure was, since '70. Also I
don't feel that design negates the need to execute. As much as I hate a
cliche', I do believe that anything worth doing is worth doing right.
But I just don't see this lack of execution you speak of! I see plenty
of it in my older videos, though.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that time changes things.......
like the way our parents walked through 13 feet of snow to go to
school, how the average temp was 34 below, how wonderful everything was
years ago, when in reality history tells us it was much more
difficult. I listen to old recordings and CRINGE at things that at the
time were unbelievable! Example: The '72 Kingsmen! They blew me away!!
What a hornline!!!!What a drumline!!!! What a color guard!!!! And, in
fact, weren't they awesome? (for '72) I now listen to them on CD, and,
much to my chagrin, I hear MANY bleeps and bloops out of the hornline,
I listen to the best drumline of the day and hear a tymp section trying
to take the tempo from 130 to 200 without telling anyone (the beginning
of the Mickey Mouse segment). Despite this, they were the best for the
time and I do not demean, but admire them! I saw the rifle line do
PERFECT triples, and then realized that they were only triples, but in
'72 a triple was not an"only" - it was a feat!
As to your final question, someone else answered it better that I
would have-they love the activity-even though it's not perfect, or what
they would like, ideally.
respectfully- Dan M.
KHall41427
Muchachos were awesome and I wish they would've stuck around they would've
had a tremendous impact on DC especially in the East
Mr. Daniel Marion
Subject: Re: MUCHACHOS AFTER `75 - WHAT HAPPENED?
Barry - Your example of a corps cranking up a tempo was from the '75
SCV show (which I loved!) however, did you know that the section you
refer to was performed when they were STANDING STILL? I did....
Your other points:
#1 Symmetry in design is not intrinsically more difficult that ANY
other design. If the Crossmen had a bad set after a halt in '96, they
could just as easily have had a bad halt with assymetry. (Why did this
even come up? I thought that controversy was over years ago!)
#2 No, a judge would not stand at the end of a company front and tick
EVERY person out of line, since this is not possible--because he does
not know if the corps is guiding left, right, or center. He COULD
impose a unit penalty if the front was bad enough.
#3 High level marching- Try playing & marching like that for more than
a 16 count movement? First, the high level you speak of is not a
movement, but mark time, and does not compare with the oxygen needs of
taking 40" steps for the same period of time.
#4 Precision I sometimes think that people don't see-or want to see
the precision that is on the field! It's only my opinion--but I think
that some, who don't really like the way shows are designed, (and yes,
they have the right to this!!)sometimes try to make it seem like
performance levels are coming down. I vehemently disagree with this!
In any venue-- Drum Corps, sports, literature, ANYTHING knowledge is
accumulative- you don't know something one generation, and forget it
the next. This is my point-do you think that suddenly, people have
forgotten how to put together a great Drum Corps show? NO!
You don't necessarily have to like it, just as you don't have to like
every book you read, or every movie you see, but in general, the medium
improves!!!!
Of course, these are my opinions, and I realize that those reading
this are affectionados of the activity, so I certainly respect any
comments pertaining to these thoughts.
Barry I too have marched in the top 6- As a matter of fact -- in the
top 1-----4 times..
RMurray505
The greatest drum corps I have ever seen. Wish I was old enough to march
with that red black and white machine.
Stephen Ford
Dan,
Not to worry about the misunderstanding. I respect your opinion about
today's visuals. I, however, still don't feel I've seen anything new
since the original Zingali and Brubaker shows. I must admit that I was in
awe of them when I first saw them, but I've grown tired of them. If that
form of design had become a signature of 1 corps, it would have been fine,
but to see it 12 times a year on finals TV year after year is old.
As to writers today and execution, I don't think you can draw a
generational distinction. Look at the Hawthorne Caballeros. Their visuals
are contemporary, but their execution technique is still there. Why?
Because people like Gene Bennett are still around to CARE about it. Just
because one started their design career in this decade, doesn't excuse
them from learning how to teach execution, even though there are fewer
people to learn from.
Wayne
Jglemir
well.....
give me any of last years top dci groups.......
and i'll teach em any of the drill charts to a show from the 70's.......
i less then a afternoon......
and the nest day they'll be as clean as it took the 70's kids
to clean all season......that is providing then do not get bored after a
day of those drills.......
aside from that...most horn instructors back then
would kill a visual person if they did a drill of the 80's or
current........
but of course....it's only my opinion
c ya.......j.lemire
Stephen Ford
lega...@aol.com
In article <32C7FF...@ix.netcom.com>, "Barry N. York"
<bny...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>Plus, the movements were MORE demanding... as examples,
>1) Symmetrical drill is rather difficult. Look at how many corps
>do it today. Then look at how many do it well. A good example of
>some bad symmetry is a halt in Crossmen 1996.
>2) The judge's used to stand at the end of a company front and
>tick every single person who was out. They also ticked phasing,
>interval, and form. Look at the corps today from the end
>zone, and you will see that no corps can even hold a straight line.
...except for maybe Madison....
>3) High Level marching. Try playing and marching like that for more
>that a 16 count movement.
...Believe it or not, there is a technique to doing this without having
the top half of your body in constant motion. If done correctly, you can
actually lift one leg so that the thigh is parallel with the ground and
not move your head...
>4) Precision, precision, and PRECISION. This term must have been
>lost in recent drum corps years.
Thank you, Barry, for pointing this out...
Larry Girard, Jr.
Jeff Mitchell
lega...@aol.com wrote:
> >4) Precision, precision, and PRECISION. This term must have been
> >lost in recent drum corps years.
>
> Thank you, Barry, for pointing this out...
>
> Larry Girard, Jr.
Larry and Barry,
You can debate this until the cows come home (whatever that means), but
there is no doubt, in my mind anyway, that the performers of today are
superior to those of 20 years ago. I have been on the field as a judge
since 1975 and the level of talent has risen consistently.
One might compare this to professional basketball and baseball, where
critics bemoan the lack of fundamentals that today's players exhibit
while recognizing they are stronger, faster, and flashier.
Given the limited winter rehearsal time and the turnover corps today
experience and the complexity of program, the "execution" is not what it
was in 1975. Yet one must recognize that the sacrifice in precision has
given rise to an increase in artisitry.
If one remains in a 1970's mindset, you listen and watch for ticks. This
is still part of the judging criteria, but we look more towards what is
accomplished rather than what isn't.
Have a Happy New Year,
Jeff
SplntrGrp
Jeff,
>Yet one must recognize that the sacrifice in precision has
given rise to an increase in artisitry.
Oh, that might be a little bit of an overstatement. Very often the corps
that focus of being "artistic" (Carolina Crown and Magic of Orlando, for
example) without balancing their "artistry" with a noticeable
entertainment value (like CBC and PR) are sending the audience to the hot
dog stands. Most of us who actually make our living in the classic
performing arts equate boring the audience with artistic failure. Maybe
it's time that the drum corps judging format starts working with that
standard too.
If it means a ballsier and more outwardly entertaining drum corps show,
then most audience members will accept a small level of relative
imprecision (which is why Madison is able to maintain their hold on the
audience). The problem seems to be that many of these "artistic" corps are
boring the audiences to tears AND being sloppy while doing it.
What's to congratulate about that?
Matt
Barry N. York
SplntrGrp wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> >Yet one must recognize that the sacrifice in precision has
> given rise to an increase in artisitry.
>
> Oh, that might be a little bit of an overstatement. Very often the corps
> that focus of being "artistic" (Carolina Crown and Magic of Orlando, for
> example) without balancing their "artistry" with a noticeable
> entertainment value (like CBC and PR) are sending the audience to the hot
> dog stands.
This is true. There was once a time when I hardly ever felt
bored by a performance, and since it was rare, I'd go
ahead and sit through it.
> Most of us who actually make our living in the classic
> performing arts equate boring the audience with artistic failure.
That IS very interesting.
> Maybe
> it's time that the drum corps judging format starts working with that
> standard too.
>
> If it means a ballsier and more outwardly entertaining drum corps show,
> then most audience members will accept a small level of relative
> imprecision (which is why Madison is able to maintain their hold on the
> audience). The problem seems to be that many of these "artistic" corps are
> boring the audiences to tears AND being sloppy while doing it.
I think that a little bit of slop can be tolerated for an
exciting production... this may be why so many people like
corps like Madison even if there are not as clean as the first
place corps.
> What's to congratulate about that?
>
> Matt
Barry
Barry N. York
Jglemir wrote:
>
> well.....
> give me any of last years top dci groups.......
> i less then a afternoon......
> and the nest day they'll be as clean as it took the 70's kids
> to clean all season......
Yeah, right HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA...
*laughing my *ss off*
That is funny.
Barry
Jeff Mitchell
SplntrGrp wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> >Yet one must recognize that the sacrifice in precision has
> given rise to an increase in artisitry.
>
> Oh, that might be a little bit of an overstatement. Very often the corps
> that focus of being "artistic" (Carolina Crown and Magic of Orlando, for
> example) without balancing their "artistry" with a noticeable
> entertainment value (like CBC and PR) are sending the audience to the hot
> dog stands.
Matt,
Hot Dogs have been good sellers at drum corps shows well before the 1996
season. Hot dog corps have been around as long as I can remember.
Nothing new here, except we now know they are not health concious food
sources.
Obviously CBC and PR were outstanding in 1996, truly wonderful programs
and far superior to the shows of 10, 20, 30, and 40 years past. Why slam
other corps for their efforts? In Orlando, from my vantage point there
was no mad dash for the hot dog stand when Carolina Crown and Magic
performed.
> Most of us who actually make our living in the classic
> performing arts equate boring the audience with artistic failure. Maybe
> it's time that the drum corps judging format starts working with that
> standard too.
Well, it seems to me that most of the classic perfroming arts in America
depend on donations to exist. I don't see scalpers at the ballet or
symphony trying to sell these tickets as a hot commodity. Not my idea of
a vibrant economic entity.
>
> If it means a ballsier and more outwardly entertaining drum corps show,
> then most audience members will accept a small level of relative
> imprecision (which is why Madison is able to maintain their hold on the
> audience). The problem seems to be that many of these "artistic" corps are
> boring the audiences to tears AND being sloppy while doing it.
>
To quote you,"Well, that might be a little bit of an overstatement."
Jeff
RMurray505
ok we will giveyou the chance then we will take all the yard markers away
and see how long it takes to clean it
SplntrGrp
Date: Wed, Jan 1, 1997 11:49 PM EDT
From: SplntrGrp
Subj: Re: MUCHACHOS AFTER `75 - WHAT HAPPENED?
To: JEFFMI...@prodigy.net
Jeff Mitchell wrote:
> I don't see scalpers at the ballet or
symphony trying to sell these tickets as a hot commodity. Not my idea of
a vibrant economic entity.
Well, if you'd been here in Chicago trying to get tickets to Lyric Opera's
"Ring" cycle last season, you'd have been joined by hundreds of other
people looking for tickets and willing to pay more bucks than most people
make in a month to get them. On a smaller scale, the company I run had
people on the sidewalk every night before showtime looking to buy tickets
(to no avail) for a limited run production of a Beckett piece we produced
last year starring John Mahoney. Keep in mind this is Samuel Beckett - not
exactly considered "mainstream" fare. And yet the word of mouth and the
reviews on the show made it a desired ticket. These being only two of the
many examples of the fine-arts being "hot commodities", you may retract
your statement at your leisure;-)
In the not-for-profit arts world we subsidize our ticket prices with
donations so that anyone in the community can afford tickets. This works
to keep the fine arts affordable for all. But if we bored the hell out of
our audiences the way that some of the DCI corps do, we wouldn't be
getting those donations very much longer. If what an artist produces
strikes his audience as pretentious or (more to the point with some of
these corps), negligible, that's his failure, and he should be looking for
another job.
>Why slam
other corps for their efforts? In Orlando, from my vantage point there
was no mad dash for the hot dog stand when Carolina Crown and Magic
performed.
Both corps should be capable of coming up with shows better than they had.
Neither had any sense of build toward "the money shot" (pardon my
grossness). The "money shot" is that thing that the viewer remembers,
years after the performance. For example, I can still describe for you in
great detail the environment surrounding my first experience with some of
the activity's great "money shots" - the first time I saw SCV's "Bottle
Dance" in 1975, the spontaneous roar at the end of Garfield's opener in
1983, my wife's involuntary screaming at the end of the Cavie's 1991 show
(the first drum corps show she'd ever seen - and she thought it was going
to be painfully silly). Listen to the crowd response to many of the 1996
shows. Not exactly overwhelming. Was it because the audience was too dumb
to get the shows?
Nope.
Matt
Drew McPheeters
Jglemir wrote:
>
> well.....
> give me any of last years top dci groups.......
> and i'll teach em any of the drill charts to a show from the 70's.......
> i less then a afternoon......
> and the nest day they'll be as clean as it took the 70's kids
> day of those drills.......
You can start by teaching them straight lines, even intervals,
and marching in phase. Then get back to us.
Rick Beckham
In article <32CA39...@prodigy.net>,
Jeff Mitchell <JEFFMI...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>lega...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>You can debate this until the cows come home (whatever that means), but
>there is no doubt, in my mind anyway, that the performers of today are
>superior to those of 20 years ago. I have been on the field as a judge
>since 1975 and the level of talent has risen consistently.
>
Most batteries play second banana to the pit. And a stationary pit
does not impress me no matter how good they are.
>One might compare this to professional basketball and baseball, where
>critics bemoan the lack of fundamentals that today's players exhibit
>while recognizing they are stronger, faster, and flashier.
>
Drill is faster today, no doubt. But playing fundamentals have been
sacrificed in the battery. I can argue this point because I know what
I'm talking about.
>Given the limited winter rehearsal time and the turnover corps today
>experience and the complexity of program, the "execution" is not what it
>was in 1975. Yet one must recognize that the sacrifice in precision has
>given rise to an increase in artisitry.
>
Please. If it can't be executed at a level that will keep the audiences
tuned in where does drum corps go from here? And what artistry are you
referring to, the drill? Most drills today are garbage, artistically
speaking. Written in such a way to give no focal or reference points
to view mistakes. Sorta like a Picasso painting that draws your attention
in a direction away from the flaws. Where is the reference point in
a snake or 'ocean wave' drill? No straight lines to compare, many people
could be completely out of tune with the drill and it will go unnoticed.
>If one remains in a 1970's mindset, you listen and watch for ticks. This
>is still part of the judging criteria, but we look more towards what is
>accomplished rather than what isn't.
>
If modern corps took 70's drills with today's tempos then we'd see an
advancement. Of course the battery would have to return to being the
primary driving force of the percussion section, playing parts written
for a field show and not parts written for a concert percussion
ensemble.
John Adcock
You know...I have the vids from 74 on...and you know what? You members
of some of those corps weren't NEARLY as clean as you THINK you
were...
John
Jeff Mitchell
SplntrGrp wrote:
>
> Date: Wed, Jan 1, 1997 11:49 PM EDT
> From: SplntrGrp
> Subj: Re: MUCHACHOS AFTER `75 - WHAT HAPPENED?
> To: JEFFMI...@prodigy.net
>
> Jeff Mitchell wrote:
> > I don't see scalpers at the ballet or
> symphony trying to sell these tickets as a hot commodity. Not my idea > of a vibrant economic entity.
>
> Well, if you'd been here in Chicago trying to get tickets to Lyric Opera's
> "Ring" cycle last season, you'd have been joined by hundreds of other
> people looking for tickets and willing to pay more bucks than most people
> make in a month to get them. On a smaller scale, the company I run had
> people on the sidewalk every night before showtime looking to buy tickets
> (to no avail) for a limited run production of a Beckett piece we produced
> last year starring John Mahoney. Keep in mind this is Samuel Beckett - not
John Mahoney, who did he march with?
> exactly considered "mainstream" fare. And yet the word of mouth and the
> reviews on the show made it a desired ticket. These being only two of the
> many examples of the fine-arts being "hot commodities", you may retract
> your statement at your leisure;-)
I guess Beckett must be ballsier and more entertaining than I recall:).
All kidding aside, congratulations on your successes.
>
> In the not-for-profit arts world we subsidize our ticket prices with
> donations so that anyone in the community can afford tickets. This works
> to keep the fine arts affordable for all.
Well, thank the Lord for chartible tax deductions and the wealthy
patrons who keep this alive ;).
> But if we bored the hell out of
> our audiences the way that some of the DCI corps do, we wouldn't be
> getting those donations very much longer. If what an artist produces
> strikes his audience as pretentious or (more to the point with some of
> these corps), negligible, that's his failure, and he should be looking
> for another job.
Well, I must be out of it. I found both Magic of Orlando and Carolina
Crown's show to be intellectually stimulating, musical, and solid
efforts for 2 young developing organizations that are less than 10 years
old. The Magic's musical and visual imagery around flight was quite
vivid for me.
> >Why slam
> other corps for their efforts? In Orlando, from my vantage point there
> was no mad dash for the hot dog stand when Carolina Crown and Magic
> performed.
>
> Both corps should be capable of coming up with shows better than they had.
> Neither had any sense of build toward "the money shot" (pardon my
> grossness). The "money shot" is that thing that the viewer remembers,
> years after the performance. For example, I can still describe for you in
> great detail the environment surrounding my first experience with some of
> the activity's great "money shots" - the first time I saw SCV's "Bottle
> Dance" in 1975, the spontaneous roar at the end of Garfield's opener in
> 1983, my wife's involuntary screaming at the end of the Cavie's 1991 show
> (the first drum corps show she'd ever seen - and she thought it was going
> to be painfully silly).
It seems to me you have described possibly the finest moments that the 3
championship level corps produced. You surely don't expect to get that
same experience from every corps in DCI every season, do you? You might
remember that these corps you so roundly denounce are comprised of
children. In fact, some of the members may even have the misfortune to
read your post. You are way too critical, no wonder you get bored.
Everyone isn't Madison in 1996, nor were they in 1975.
What do you expect when you come to see a drum corps contest? The 1970's
are long gone. Every corps does not try to whip the audience into a
frenzy. The truly funny part of all this is people were saying the same
thing in 1975. That the corps of 1975 were out of touch with the
audience and that the loss of the Color Presentation, inspection,
starting line, and finishing line with the addition of keyboards and
dancing in the auxiliary were boring the audience and drum corps would
die out. Perhaps THEY WERE RIGHT and this boredom is all due to the
events of 70's, which you are so fond of.
Of course these people who marched in the 50's and 60's would refer to
corps such as St. Vinnie's and others who really new what drum corps
was. Same song, different era.
> Listen to the crowd response to many of the 1996
> shows. Not exactly overwhelming. Was it because the audience was too
> dumb to get the shows?
>
> Nope.
>
I guess that in the old days people screamed for everyone and there were
no boring shows :). Just don't remember the past as quite as wonderful
as you do. (Get those vinyl albums out) Nor is the present as gloomy as
you would make it out to be.
Give the kids a break,
Jeff
Jeff Mitchell
Jeff Mitchell wrote
the performers of today are
> >superior to those of 20 years ago.
> >
> Most batteries play second banana to the pit. And a stationary pit
> does not impress me no matter how good they are.
Rick,
How are you? If you are not at all impressed with the stationary pit,
how can you be so impressed with battery section that went up and down
the 50?
>
> >One might compare this to professional basketball and baseball, where
> >critics bemoan the lack of fundamentals that today's players exhibit
> >while recognizing they are stronger, faster, and flashier.
> >
> Drill is faster today, no doubt. But playing fundamentals have been
> sacrificed in the battery. I can argue this point because I know
> what I'm talking about.
>
I think I said that too. You can't argue with me when we basically
agree.
> Most drills today are garbage, artistically speaking.
Yes, especially compared to all those beauties from the 1970's ;). You
really should tell us how you feel and stop beating around the bush.
>
> If modern corps took 70's drills with today's tempos then we'd see an
> advancement. Of course the battery would have to return to being the
> primary driving force of the percussion section, playing parts written
> for a field show and not parts written for a concert percussion
> ensemble.
Why not go back to the 60's when I started. We had some great stuff
going. You probably missed the 3 man squads, the great sound those
slip-slide bugles made, and the single tenor drum played with a mallet.
Most of all the rudimental bass drumming in the jazz charts has never
been duplicated anywhere to my knowledge. That was the good old days.
With tongue in cheek and a Hapy New Year,
Jeff
Stephen Ford
John
I watch the vids every year and you guys aren't nearly as clean as DCI
tells you you are.
Wayne
Jordsterr
Yes, there are way more scalpers for the fine arts. Anyone remember the
clamor for Three Tenors tickets last year? They were being scalped for
$500 in LA.
As for "the money shot", Magic had two with the rocket ship and the
airplane.
Crown's giant block with the props is still talked about by parents of my
students who saw it on TV. So just because YOU didn't get it doesn't mean
it wasn't there.
My oldest video is of 81. There are NO money shots as far as I'm
concerned. Perhaps that company front works for you. That just means
we're different.
Jordi Vilanova
94-97 Bluegrass Brass
87 Garfield Cadets
86 Star of Indiana
KauffmanJ
1 Anybody else remember during retreat; the muchacho sop wailing the
matador's fanfare from the back side as the announcer tried to present the
scores? TH crowd was going apeshit.
2 Yes, little corps cheated. My dear, beloved Belvederes had guys that
were sorta a little older. And it was to our benefit that the instructors
"saw it from the inside" now and then.
2 "Hawthorne Scores never released?"
somebody in this group has to have the leverage, contacts, and plyable
definitions of morals to obtain, by whatever means neccessary, those
scores. You call yourselves drum corps fans?
ANd while you are at it, howzabout the audio tape of bayonne 77.
john, bmen 78
KauffmanJ
re muchachos last year:
anyone check UOEC albums? I think it was United Organization Eastern
Corps. I think I have a 77 bridgemen OEC. Only recording of us I know of
since pukes (initials PR) had us thrown out on a technicality.
Wait a minute, I think that stuff is in the attic. hold on a minute. Is
this like Shickeley Mix?
Yeah, here it is right in my fist. I've dragged this thing with me while
living in Africa and Taiwan and CHina. THrew out my other 800 albums but
this moldy item I couldn't part with. Tucked in next to my wife's 1975
regional band concert album and an original cover of Lennon/ono two
virgins and a recording called "Tanzania Yetu," by guys I knew in East
AFrica. Probably all dead of AIDS by now. And I've got more shit in that
box, like the ribbon that was around my Bmen hat and some busted up
mallets from finals and a tee shirt that has hidden letters that says
Phantom Sucks. Very poopular in Bayonne after 77.
SO this album might sound good, but I don't have a turntable. Muchachos
are in 10th, alas, only top 8 on the vinyl. My vol 1 has Bmen, Boston
Crusaders, Royal Crusaders, and Saints. Whoa! a photo on the back, let me
coutn heads, muchachos might have 20 horns. If someone has a good
suggestion for this item EMail me.
john, bmen
Barry N. York
RMurray505 wrote:
>
> ok we will giveyou the chance then we will take all the yard markers away
> and see how long it takes to clean it
I doubt that any corps today could do it without yardmarkers.
I bet that they could not even do their show well without yardmarkers.
Barry
Barry N. York
Jeff Mitchell wrote:
SNIP
> With tongue in cheek and a Hapy New Year,
>
> Jeff
Aren't you a judge? For the record, a lot of people feel
that the judges we have are part of the problem. After
all, most corps (no matter what bullcrap they feed their
members) are out to be competitive which means that the judging
community (the ones that reward the corps) holds the cards.
I, for one, am glad that there are corps out there who
can judge themselves without rewriting based on the judges'
opinions.
Barry
Barry N. York
Clean? I have old recordings, and I will admit that many many many
of the corps are much more musical, but they don't put it
on the line now like they did then.
Now, corps water their shows if certain parts are a little too
hard. Many of that gacks and fracks from the 70's were
worth it to hear all the upper lead sops "go for it".
As far as drill goes, the corps from the 70's were not
always clean, but they strived for precision. They
had all the basic fundamentals down. If corps today
would do that with the shows they have... WOW!
GO back and watch Freelancers 1989... they tried to do
it!
Barry
Jeff Mitchell
Barry N. York wrote:
> Aren't you a judge? For the record, a lot of people feel
> that the judges we have are part of the problem. After
> all, most corps (no matter what bullcrap they feed their
> members) are out to be competitive which means that the judging
> community (the ones that reward the corps) holds the cards.
>
Yes, I am a judge, but not sure of which problem you are referring as we
get blamed for so much.
> I, for one, am glad that there are corps out there who
> can judge themselves without rewriting based on the judges'
> opinions.
>
I couldn't agree with you more. If each corps could set criteria for
success based on non-competitive outcomes, we might see a healthier
activity. At each show I judge, someone comes in first and someone comes
in last. Everyone else is somewhere in between. There is only one first
and only 12 in the top 12. No one ever prepares to be 13th, but each
year it happens.
Personally, I don't tell corps to rewrite. Last time I did (circa 1982)
they took my advice, but I didn't like the result.
Jeff, DCI Judge 1979-96
Jeff Mitchell
Stephen Ford wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> I have to agree with your comment about rudimental bass parts in jazz
> tunes. The 90's version is marimba parts throughout a classical piece.
> Can you really justify much of the junk in the pit? I'll give you tympani
> (anyone who tried to tune the marching version, let alone wear them,
> should agree) and keyboard instruments, but the various auto parts? I've
> always wondered if there was any show where pit stuff was there but not
> played (I won't hold those 2 CRITICAL sixteenth notes played on a brake
> drum against you).
I'm just remember a corps I taught that used the marching tymps in the
70's. The guys would plead to march in parades and them would pass out
about half way through. Those suckers were heavy.
The current philosophy regarding pit percussion is, "He who dies with
the most toys wins." Seriously though, the greatest textural sound
changes ever made in drum corps have come through the pit. This is from
a lead trumpet/brass judge.
>
> As for judges being to blame, that's not my angle. You're employees doing
> the job you were hired to do. Its your employer's agenda that I have
> trouble with.
>
Thanks for the support, but judging can certainly be improved. And
according to DCI, we are not employees, but independent sub-contractors.
I'm not sure what you mean by DCI's agenda. In my experience, "DCI" has
little meaning as all corps differ in their approach to the activity.
There really is no big brother, just a group of people trying to keep
things going.
Jeff, DCE Brass Caption Head 1990-96 (went down with the ship)
John Adcock
You guys who? I marched in the mid to late 80's. I marched with corps
that could and coyuld not execute (m&m wise). And to be honest, I
couldn't give two hoots what "DCI" thinks. I know clean when I see it.
I don't need a guy in a green shirt to tell me what is good and what
isn't.
Clean to me means good feet (everyone's style the same), smooth forms
(no matter what they are), consistant intervals, etc. Are todays
corps perfect? Nope. Not by a longshot. I think EVERY corps could be
executing better. But in many cases, today corps execute MUCH better
than the corps on the 70s and 80s. It is easy to see on the vids.
John
Stephen Ford
Jeff,
I have to agree with your comment about rudimental bass parts in jazz
tunes. The 90's version is marimba parts throughout a classical piece.
Can you really justify much of the junk in the pit? I'll give you tympani
(anyone who tried to tune the marching version, let alone wear them,
should agree) and keyboard instruments, but the various auto parts? I've
always wondered if there was any show where pit stuff was there but not
played (I won't hold those 2 CRITICAL sixteenth notes played on a brake
drum against you).
As for judges being to blame, that's not my angle. You're employees doing
the job you were hired to do. Its your employer's agenda that I have
trouble with.
Wayne Ford
Mr. Daniel Marion
WAY TO GO JEFF!! I think I got the chills!
Mr. Daniel Marion
There's nothing wrong with using what's available to you!
Maybe doctors shouldn't rely upon any recent medical findings!
Stephen Ford
XYZ...@prodigy.com (Mr. Daniel Marion) wrote:
>
>There's nothing wrong with using what's available to you!
> Maybe doctors shouldn't rely upon any recent medical findings!
But by that logic there would be no validity to medical history. Do we
throw out good medicine just because it was discovered by a previous
generation?
rand...@aol.com
In article <19970103040...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
kauf...@aol.com (KauffmanJ) writes:
>2 "Hawthorne Scores never released?"
>somebody in this group has to have the leverage, contacts, and plyable
>definitions of morals to obtain, by whatever means neccessary, those
>scores. You call yourselves drum corps fans?
>ANd while you are at it, howzabout the audio tape of bayonne 77.
No doubt, somebody in this group has the leverage, etc. to get the scores
if they do, indeed, exist. It would certainly be interesting to see.
As far as audio tapes of Bayonne '77, I know that DCI has the tape of
their finals performance that year. Ken Kobold recorded it, and DCI
received his tapes collection when he died. They also have a tape of
Muchachos '75 prelim performance, which Ken also recorded. Someday
maybe DCI can be persuaded to sell these tapes the way Ken would if
you asked him to back in the early 80's. They really don't have a good
reason *not* to sell them. Why sit on them???
Randy Gardner
Jeff Mitchell
rand...@aol.com wrote:
>
> In article <19970103040...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> kauf...@aol.com (KauffmanJ) writes:
>
> >2 "Hawthorne Scores never released?"
> >somebody in this group has to have the leverage, contacts, and plyable
> >definitions of morals to obtain, by whatever means neccessary, those
> >scores. You call yourselves drum corps fans?
>
> >ANd while you are at it, howzabout the audio tape of bayonne 77.
>
> No doubt, somebody in this group has the leverage, etc. to get the scores
> if they do, indeed, exist. It would certainly be interesting to see.
According to Penny Crooker, the tabulator in 1975 at Philly, the
Muchacho 1975 score sheets were never tabbed. They were sealed in an
envelope and then destroyed later after the DQ. If you want to believe
otherwise you may, but Penny is a square shooter and if she says so, I
believe it.
Jeff
lega...@aol.com
In article <19970102010...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
rmurr...@aol.com (RMurray505) writes:
>ok we will giveyou the chance then we will take all the yard markers away
>and see how long it takes to clean it
>
>
oooh! oooh!
Yeah. Then get them to do the show on a parking lot *without* any markers
at all! Way back when, we used to rehearse on a piece of farmland that
had been graded level and had two big lights at the 50. We didn't use
anything except end zone markers. When we go to march on a real field, we
thought we had died and gone to heaven!
Larry Girard, Jr.
- one guy who learned to march *without* all the visual aids.
Stephen Ford
Larry, I thought for a minute there that you were going to describe '69
Legion nationals prelims in Atlanta. Not only was the AT&T parking lot
unmarked, but it was banked. At least everyone had a 50 yard line stand.
rand...@aol.com
In article <32CE78...@prodigy.net>, Jeff Mitchell
<JEFFMI...@prodigy.net> writes:
>According to Penny Crooker, the tabulator in 1975 at Philly, the
>Muchacho 1975 score sheets were never tabbed. They were sealed in an
>envelope and then destroyed later after the DQ. If you want to believe
>otherwise you may, but Penny is a square shooter and if she says so, I
>believe it.
>
>Jeff
I believe it, too. After all this time, if the sheets had been available
somewhere,
they would have surfaced by now. All that's left is the Legend....
Randy Gardner
SC Sader
Guys, the field we used at 82 nationals in montreal was 25 yards shorter
than our drill used (even though canadian fields are supposed to be 40
yards longer than american fields). We would have to practice large parts
of the drum solo standing against a brick wall trying to figure out where
to reenter the drill.
Mike Dubil
Mr. Daniel Marion
Subject: Re: MUCHACHOS AFTER `75 - WHAT HAPPENED?
no, Wayne--
You don't throw out what's good, but if there's something better, why
not use it? My original post pertained to having a marked field to use.
Do you think that it's shameful for corps to use these markings? I
suppose we could go back to a time when drum majors or other select
persons would "spot" on the field. Was it wrong for them to do that?
Perhaps we should drop the vastly improved horns and go back to the old
rotary ones, after all weren't they considered good enough then? Hey,
let's go all out and get out those gut snares!! They, too were "good"
once.
P.S. I don't understand how any history can be invalid.
Stephen Ford
John,
Since your address is BDcontra, I assumed you played contra in BD. The
reference to "you guys" was really generic to DCI corps today, much as
your original comment was addressed generically to corps from the 70's.
As for the videos, the thought that went through my mind when I read your
comments was the inevitable unflattering end zone shots of what are
intended to be company fronts that air every year. I was told by one of
the great visual writers of the past that if your ego starts running wild
with you, watch your own show from the end zone, its usually pretty
humbling.
WF
Stephen Ford
Dan,
What I don't get is the argument that always surfaces when the past is
discussed that goes something like "if you don't like the shows today,
lets go back to rope drums, G bugles and squad movements". What I've been
saying is that there are good things which deserve to be
retained/reinstituted.
I'm all in favor of better quality horns, better intonation, more tunable
drums (I even like playing on kevlar) and exploring new show ideas. But;
there were some good ideas of old that were thrown out just to stay in
lock step with the herd. For example, I don't want a MANDATORY starting
line. But the concept of entering and exiting the "stage" was good
theatre. Where else does the entire ensemble start and end a performance
at center stage. There is no rule requiring it in DCI, but "the herd"
says an entrance and exit is passe.
Wayne
Stephen Ford
Dan,
Sorry for the disjointed posts, but my typing speed doesn't keep up with
the time out speed of Prodigy.
As to lined fields, I didn't raise that point, but I'll take it. I'll
admit that 3 valve horns are a qualitative improvement over the old, as
are today's marching percussion instruments. Lining the field every 10
yards is hard to justify in the same context. Its easier; it erases a
critical difference between bands and drum corps, but why is it an
improvement? Because its recent? Computers are recent, but would you have
people not learn to manually write or add? If lining every 10 yards is
good, why not every 5 yards. How about 5 yard grids?
WF
Mr. Daniel Marion
Wayne-
I'm not saying that the marked field is necessarily good, although I
thing it leads to better sets, what I'm saying is that since it in
fact IS there, why not use it?
Mr. Daniel Marion
Subject: Re: MUCHACHOS AFTER `75 - WHAT HAPPENED?
Wayne-
How was the COMPLETELY predicable entrance and exit of old good
theater? I always thoght cookie-cutter approaches to anything lacking
in imagination. And I thought of one arena where the entire ensemble
does start and end center stage--almost every broadway play I've ever
seen! And THAT'S good theater!
John Adcock
>As for the videos, the thought that went through my mind when I read your
>comments was the inevitable unflattering end zone shots of what are
>intended to be company fronts that air every year.
I agree. Many show are NOT clean from the side. Not now, not in the
80's or even before. How come? Easy. How often have you seen a judge
"Judging" from the side? I can remember one time in 5 years of
marching. At BD, the philosophy taken was that if you "clean" from the
sides as well as the "box", your show will be better. Unfortunatly, it
is much harder to accomplish this.
Cleaning from the sides in the 70's was useless, because of the vast
amount of semmetrical drill. I use both methods when I work woth high
schools, though many directors think I'm insane for "cleaning from the
field".
John
Stephen Ford
Dan,
I can't agree that B'way shows start with the entire cast at center stage.
The ones I've seen have entrances and exits, gradually introducing
characters. Sure, entrances were predictable, they were required. I've
already said I oppose any format requirements. My big problem is with the
equally predictable, but not mandatory, sets today. Why not do something
independent of the herd?
As for the yard lines, I really don't get excited about that. The point
was made by someone else that the use of yard markers today make shows
easier to learn and perform. The comment makes sense to me.
Wayne
Mr. Daniel Marion
Wayne-
(Is this round 8 or 9?)
I suppose we'll disagree about alot, and that's OK! My only thought
right now is how you percieve sets of today as predictable. Look at the
opening sets of Phantom, Madison, Blue Devils, Cadets, just to name 4.
How could they be any more dissimilar?
Mike Morra
Sorry (in advance) for this query ... I just started picking up
RAMD about a week ago and missed the beginning of this thread
(and I'm sure that's where the answer is buried!) ... but ...
What happened to the Muchachos *in* '75, anyway? Lost/destroyed
score sheets? DQ (as in DisQualified)? How does a corps get
DQ'd, anyway?
BTW, I am just a DC fan (obviously!) from the Bridgeport, CT
area, raised on an intermittent DCA diet of CT Hurricanes and
Champions on Parade ... who just discovered the whole other
world of junior corps and realizes that DC=HURCS+CABS+BUSH+etc.
doesn't even begin to scratch the surface (and who never even
heard of the Muchachos until just now!) Nice to be here and to
discover DC in cyberspace!
Mike
--
"Those that say that something can't be done should stay out of
the way of the person doing it."
Barry N. York
Mike Morra wrote:
>
> Sorry (in advance) for this query ... I just started picking up
> RAMD about a week ago and missed the beginning of this thread
> (and I'm sure that's where the answer is buried!) ... but ...
>
> What happened to the Muchachos *in* '75, anyway? Lost/destroyed
> score sheets? DQ (as in DisQualified)? How does a corps get
> DQ'd, anyway?
The Muchachos were a DCI contender in 1975. They allegedly
marched at least one overage member in thier corps. The
punishment at the time was DCI disqualification. They were
DQ'd and banned from finals.
Today, the punishment is different. In 1989, Santa Clara Vanguard
had two overage members, but they kicked them out as
soon as they "discovered" (admitted?) to having them. The corps
forfeited all of the shows where they broke the rules and
went on to when DCI championships.
> BTW, I am just a DC fan (obviously!) from the Bridgeport, CT
> area, raised on an intermittent DCA diet of CT Hurricanes and
> Champions on Parade ... who just discovered the whole other
> world of junior corps and realizes that DC=HURCS+CABS+BUSH+etc.
> doesn't even begin to scratch the surface (and who never even
> heard of the Muchachos until just now!) Nice to be here and to
> discover DC in cyberspace!
>
> Mike
Barry
Barry N. York
Mr. Daniel Marion
Subject: Re: MUCHACHOS AFTER `75 - WHAT HAPPENED?
Barry-
Perhaps I'm naive, but it's very difficult to believe that a corps the
stature of SCV would knowingly let over-aged members in their ranks!
Consider the following:
1 This is a corps that has to turn away people every year-were these
kids so fantastic in their talents?
2 These two were from England, and therefore possibly subject to
more attention than is usual. Is the staff of SCV that stupid?
3 The corps was presented with birth certificates-should they assume
that everyone is trying to pull the wool over their eyes and consult
the FBI about each one?
4 This is a corps that must be considered one of the greats of all
time, are they foolish enough to tarnish their reputation on something
so foolish?
5 If there is any doubt about what actually happened, I for one, and
I hope many others, will not jump to the conclusion that they did a
misdeed - how can an organization of this calibre not even get the
benefit of the doubt from it's "fans"?
6 Some of these questions can also be put to why the Muchachos
marched with overaged, I can't answer that, but I do know that up
until then, there was no precedent.
Barry N. York
Mr. Daniel Marion wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: MUCHACHOS AFTER `75 - WHAT HAPPENED?
>
> Barry-
>
> Perhaps I'm naive, but it's very difficult to believe that a corps the
>
> stature of SCV would knowingly let over-aged members in their ranks!
I really have no cares about whether they knew or not, but they
did march 2 overage members in 1989. The same punishment
was not handed out (as it was to Muchachos).
My only point.
> Consider the following:
>
> 1 This is a corps that has to turn away people every year-were these
>
> kids so fantastic in their talents?
okay...
> 2 These two were from England, and therefore possibly subject to
>
> more attention than is usual. Is the staff of SCV that stupid?
Maybe. I know that in the "Barry York Drum Corps"(TM), I would
have checked their backgrounds out high and low!
Someone said, "... they must have made it through customs...";
my thoughts are, "duh, how do we know that they gave the same
documents to SCV?"
> 3 The corps was presented with birth certificates-should they assume
>
> that everyone is trying to pull the wool over their eyes and consult
>
> the FBI about each one?
No.
> 4 This is a corps that must be considered one of the greats of all
>
> time, are they foolish enough to tarnish their reputation on something
>
> so foolish?
Maybe.
> 5 If there is any doubt about what actually happened, I for one, and
>
> I hope many others, will not jump to the conclusion that they did a
>
> misdeed - how can an organization of this calibre not even get the
>
> benefit of the doubt from it's "fans"?
Well, they got the benefit of the doubt from me until
Gail Royer pushed to keep the Bluecoats out of DCI-East
finals because they had bus trouble on the way there.
Bluecoats went on in exhibition because they unknowingly
broke the rules, but he expected different treatment
for his corps come championships week.
> 6 Some of these questions can also be put to why the Muchachos
>
> marched with overaged, I can't answer that, but I do know that up
>
> until then, there was no precedent.
Yeah, well, to say this when DCI was in its 4th year is not
saying much!
Cheers!
Barry
BCinWCFla
>>According to Penny Crooker, the tabulator in 1975 at Philly, the
Muchacho 1975 score sheets were never tabbed. They were sealed in an
envelope and then destroyed later after the DQ. If you want to believe
otherwise you may, but Penny is a square shooter and if she says so, I
believe it.<<
Yep. That was the story. The numbers were put together by talking with the
judges from prelims & adding THEIR (Cheat Sheet) scores together. What was
the score?
:-) Twenty + years later, it doesn't really matter does it? The people
that it mattered to know what it was.
As far as the DQ, heck, anyone that watched finals that year saw a few
corps perform with a few holes in the show. The Muchachos weren't the
first with overage members, and certainly not the ONLY corps.
On another note... Hi Jeff... glad to see good people like you still
around.
"B"
rand...@aol.com
In article <19970117184...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
bcin...@aol.com (BCinWCFla) writes:
(quoting the heretofore end of this thread which never seems to die...)
>>According to Penny Crooker, the tabulator in 1975 at Philly, the
>>Muchacho 1975 score sheets were never tabbed. They were sealed in an
>>envelope and then destroyed later after the DQ. If you want to believe
>>otherwise you may, but Penny is a square shooter and if she says so, I
>>believe it.
>Yep. That was the story. The numbers were put together by talking with
the
>judges from prelims & adding THEIR (Cheat Sheet) scores together. What
was
>the score?
>:-) Twenty + years later, it doesn't really matter does it? The people
>that it mattered to know what it was.
....a little earlier in this thread, a person claimed in an e-mail to me
that he
had spoken with a caption judge from that night who claimed to have seen
the
score, and that it was a 90.7. In prelims at DCI, the contest in which
the
Muchachos supposedly achieved this number, the published preliminary
scores had Madison in first with a 89.55, Santa Clara in second with a
88.75,
and Blue Devils in third with an 87.15. The Muchachos score would,
obviously,
have put them in first ahead of all the others, who finished in finals
exactly in
the order they did in prelims. Madison jumped nearly 3.0 points from
prelims
to finals (92.50), SCV jumped 2.25 points to a 91.00 and BD moved up by
1.45
to an 88.60.
How likely is the Muchachos' supposed prelims number? Well, if you
look at the supporting, published evidence of the Muchachos' scores from
earlier in August 1975, it could easily be a true number.
Exactly one week prior to DCI Finals, Muchachos came in 4th with an
86.55
to Blue Devils 1st (91.05), SCV 2nd (89.05) and 27th Lancers 3rd (87.40)
at the
World Open in Everett, MA. Just 2 days later, at the CYO Nationals in
Boston,
Muchachos beat all three corps, scoring an 88.70 to BD's 87.45, SCV's
86.80,
and 27th's 85.30. Significantly, Muchachos did not win CYO. Madison did,
with
a 90.55. However, it is obvious that Muchachos were on a roll, improving
their
score in just 2 nights by over 2 points, and more significantly, beating
*three*
corps which had just beaten them. So, just 4 days prior to DCI, they were
in
*at least* 2nd place in the country, behind Madison. They still had 4
more nights to polish their show before DCI Prelims, and could have made
the push to gain 2 more points in that time. The real question is: could
they have overtaken Madison?
Listening to the tape of the Muchachos prelim performance, it is obvious
that
the horn line was "on". They absolutely blistered the paint on the
stadium
walls in "La Fiesta." The staff, which can be heard following that
number, was
very turned on by the performance, too. The audience was eating it up.
Randy Gardner
Stephen P.
Isn't it amazing how SOME people can push for a disqualification but
later escape it themselves? Should there be holes at Nats, or should they
push the age? Who really cares anyway. I say if you can still go full
amps at 27 then do it. 22, 23? Who cares. If you get cut when your
younger practice and try again. But if they ARE going to disqualify
sometimes, lets be fair across the board. No favorites. Of course this
would also take some agreement and adherence. Right. Better to just
threaten corps' existence. Sorry about the sarcasm.
Stephen
Frederick Magro
In <19970118055...@ladder01.news.aol.com> rand...@aol.com
writes:
Randy - The percussion was obviously also hot on that recording.
By the way Randy......."Is there anybody out there?"............
BC82Sop
> > It is impossible to relate the impact of the 75 Muchachos field
> > presentation thru the internet, especially 21 years later.
> > Having seen the Muchachos in 1975, I would say that it was probably the
> > most electrifying field show (brass, drums and M&M) that I ever witnessed.
> > Far surpassing anything I have viewed from Madison, including 1995.
> > The Muchachos did beat Blue Devils about a week before the championships
> > and Madison also, (if memory serves me correctly).
>
> Sorry but BD beat Muchachos and SCV, and 27th on 8/9/75 at World Open (Madison was not at that show) and the two nights later 8/11/75 at CYO Nationals, Madison took first, Muchachos second, and BD amazingly dropped from in the 90s just two nights before to 88 whereas Muchachos who two nights before had scored in the 88 range scored 88.70 at CYO with Madison winning with 90.55. The Muchachos did not beat Madison in 75 unless of course it was done during that prelim performance we never saw or heard scores for....