Tradition
Stu
A decent article about tradition and reform. The many quotes in this
thing really shine.
Stuart E. Rice
ns787980
Great article.
No one ACCEPTS the facts.
BTW? Who (in charge) hangs on to the TAG "drum and bugle corps"?
Since there is neither DRUM or BUGLE anymore.
Can anyone say?
Sharon
the OTHER Mike
So Hopkins and the rest can feel they are "special".
1) What a shame, they could have brought it to such an excellent level
while staying within the guidelines of what drum & bugle corps was
SUPPOSED to be.
2) They could have written drill to music, but they didn't
3) They could have peeled paint, but they don't.
4) they could have respected tradition instead of USING it as a
gimmick
5) They could have SERVED a lot more kids but it so much easier to
just take the cream off the top and just clean instead of TEACHING
( and charge them a fortune to USE them)
ns787980
> On Nov 13, 10:26 pm, ns787980 <sharca...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 10, 3:42 pm, Stu <choreoma...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > >http://www.bukisa.com/articles/188824_whither-tradition
>
> > > A decent article about tradition and reform. The many quotes in this
> > > thing really shine.
>
> > > Stuart E. Rice
>
> > Great article.
>
> > No one ACCEPTS the facts.
>
> > BTW? Who (in charge) hangs on to the TAG "drum and bugle corps"?
> > Since there is neither DRUM or BUGLE anymore.
>
> > Can anyone say?
>
> > Sharon
>
> So Hopkins and the rest can feel they are "special".
>
> 1) What a shame, they could have brought it to such an excellent level
> while staying within the guidelines of what drum & bugle corps was
> SUPPOSED to be.
Wanna know how much I lost respect for that corps? That corps was
DOING it. They were progressing drum and bugle corps while still
BEING a drum and bugle corps... until THAT corps administration
decided that THEIR demographic was going to be BAND.
>
> 2) They could have written drill to music, but they didn't
Because they downgraded to BAND.
>
> 3) They could have peeled paint, but they don't.
Because "TRUMPETS AND TUBAS" appeal to BAND.
>
> 4) they could have respected tradition instead of USING it as a
> gimmick
I appeal to "tradition" as most folks do. I'd like to see some KICK
ASS playing of instruments (which you won't see with the DUMBING DOWN
of drum corps with their pansy IN DOOR instruments - Man that REALLY
makes my blood boil...)
>
> 5) They could have SERVED a lot more kids but it so much easier to
> just take the cream off the top and just clean instead of TEACHING
> ( and charge them a fortune to USE them)
HEY... Get YOUR buddies to chime in on THAT one Mr Poche.
I'm certain that NO ONE (that YOU associate with) will back YOU up on
THAT. TO THIS DAY.
It will be the CREAM OF THE CROP as designed and configured by those
that DON'T have drum and bugle corps as a recognized genre. Even
though THEY call IT that. EVEN DCA isn't doing THAT any longer.
Sharon
the OTHER Mike
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hey, NO one associates with me, not even my dog.
It's all about money and the marketing. DCI/DCA are just a moving
billboard for Yamaha and the like.
Sad
ns787980
Yeah right.
Write something that YOUR "friends" will REALLY hate. Don't put a
"SPIN" on it. And you and me will have something to talk about.
THAT is how I got BANNED from DCP. I'll still comment and needle
those that started HERE and went THERE... and feel comfortable with
themselves to come here and comment. Those jokers deserve nothing
less. IMHO.
Cause folks that say things like "contribution" don't like to hear
about what IS.
How the genre has depleted from 10's of thousands of corps to just a
few hundred. That's DCI. DCA has formulated themselves to DCI that
they've marketed themselves OUT of being A SENIOR corps.
It goes on and on.
Mostly because THOSE posters have OTHER agendas THAT HAVE ABSOLUTELY
NOTHING TO DO WITH A POSTER THAT COMMENTED on drum and bugle corps.
Having been a benefactor...
Sharon
the OTHER Mike
Not sure who you are talking about. My REAL friends don't read this
newsgroup OR DCP.
> THAT is how I got BANNED from DCP. �I'll still comment and needle
> those that started HERE and went THERE... and feel comfortable with
> themselves to come here and comment. �Those jokers deserve nothing
> less. �IMHO.
Ok, but some of us ( me ) never left RAMD
>
> Cause folks that say things like "contribution" don't like to hear
> about what IS.
Lost me there
>
> How the genre has depleted from 10's of thousands of corps to just a
> few hundred. �That's DCI. �DCA has formulated themselves to DCI that
> they've marketed themselves OUT of being A SENIOR corps.
I see your point I think, but having been to DCA only once, I'm not
well versed in what they do.
> It goes on and on.
>
> Mostly because THOSE posters have OTHER agendas THAT HAVE ABSOLUTELY
> NOTHING TO DO WITH A POSTER THAT COMMENTED on drum and bugle corps.
>
HUH ?
> Having been a benefactor...
Don't feel like the Lone Ranger
>
> Sharon- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
You don't believe it's all about the money now ? ( and has been at
least since 90 if not before)
It WAS a youth activity FOR kids, now it's just people who make a
living off of kids.
Charlie Groh
<BleuR...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Write something that YOUR "friends" will REALLY hate. ?Don't put a
>> "SPIN" on it. ?And you and me will have something to talk about.
>
>Not sure who you are talking about. My REAL friends don't read this
>newsgroup OR DCP.
>
>> THAT is how I got BANNED from DCP. ?I'll still comment and needle
>> those that started HERE and went THERE... and feel comfortable with
>> themselves to come here and comment. ?Those jokers deserve nothing
>> less. ?IMHO.
>
>Ok, but some of us ( me ) never left RAMD
>
>>
>> Cause folks that say things like "contribution" don't like to hear
>> about what IS.
>
>Lost me there
>>
>> How the genre has depleted from 10's of thousands of corps to just a
>> few hundred. ?That's DCI. ?DCA has formulated themselves to DCI that
>> they've marketed themselves OUT of being A SENIOR corps.
>
>I see your point I think, but having been to DCA only once, I'm not
>well versed in what they do.
>
>> It goes on and on.
>>
>> Mostly because THOSE posters have OTHER agendas THAT HAVE ABSOLUTELY
>> NOTHING TO DO WITH A POSTER THAT COMMENTED on drum and bugle corps.
>>
>
>HUH ?
>
>> Having been a benefactor...
>
>Don't feel like the Lone Ranger
>>
>> Sharon- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>You don't believe it's all about the money now ? ( and has been at
>least since 90 if not before)
>
>It WAS a youth activity FOR kids, now it's just people who make a
>living off of kids.
...can't argue that (even tho the kids that *do* participate get a
helluva lot out of it...so it's not so black and white, eh?). But the
money aspect started long ago...like when the activity became
*competitive*...when guys started writing music and drills for
bux...when instructors got paid, out of necessity 'cause they spent so
much time...when *administrators* started being paid 'cause they had
no time to do anything else *but* run the corps. Sad facts, because
by the very nature of the beast it became what it is. Many folks are
working to recreate what "we" had...using their time and money. I
think it'll come, but maybe not exactly in the mode everyone here
would embrace...I'm still on the BOD for Impulse and there is an arm
of the organization called "Rhythm Regiment"...go to IYAO.org and
check 'em out...
cg
flu...@msn.com
I started DC in 68/69 and our staff got paid...every staff since then
has been paid.
Don't school teachers get paid? Are they making a living off of
kids...yes they are.
George
Shadow_7
Well, not all that I've been with got paid. At least not in bucks. Some
do get paid, but it hardly covers the costs of gas these days. But we
are talking all age corps. To have a membership of 30 pay the staff,
even one staff, that's $100+ per member per season. Which quickly adds
up to $1K per member per year total dues. And that's not including any
transportation budget or lodging for any shows. It might not mean having
any shows / performances in a season either. Much less a score or a
taste of competition. And lord forbid that you're a new corps who needs
to buy uniforms and/or instruments. Meanwhile total dues for the local
brass band in only slightly more than $100 per member per year. Which
covers printing and the insurances needed to have a group and nothing
more.
three...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Very Well said. Here
Here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the OTHER Mike
>
> - Show quoted text -
I've been with 3 corps where the staff didn't get / take pay. The only
people paid were the drill writer and the music arrangers.
Yes, I get paid to teach as a profession and I teach K-4th general
music, 2 elementary bands a junior high band and senior band for less
than $30,000 a year. The K-4 music classes are on MY time as they are
not part of my salery or job guidelines. I left an 80,000 a year job
10 years ago to come back to teaching. I do it full time, not just
weekends and 3 months during the summer. "I" buy used instruments on
Ebay so that ANY child that wants to learn can afford to and "ask "
for $25 a year rental fee so I can buy more instruments.
Yet I make a living off the backs of kids ?
Now, if you want me to build you a world class model railroad, you're
gonna pay big bucks for THAT talent as well as my travel money and
time.
I teach for the love of teaching.
Charlie Groh
...but missing the point...if you want to have fun in a fraternal-type
atmosphere, sure; however,if you want to *compete* (meaning making a
stab at actually *winning* anything) then you'd better get your wallat
out... and it helps big-time if it's fatter than the next guy.
If you simply want to play together and have a beer after rehearsal or
performance, well, alot can be done on a shoestring. But heart only
goes as far as what it takes to feed it.
I've done alot of both and there's no real merging of the two; some,
surely, but when it comes to going for the win...
cg
Shadow_7
> ...but missing the point...if you want to have fun in a fraternal-type
> atmosphere, sure; however,if you want to *compete* (meaning making a
> stab at actually *winning* anything) then you'd better get your wallat
> out... and it helps big-time if it's fatter than the next guy.
You're missing my point. It didn't used to cost OUT OF "MY" POCKET to
compete. And by compete I mean get a score at even the smallest of
"local" competitions.
In the meantime the high costs of competition is going to make the small
corps the norm. Especially in todays economy. Although the rules of
competition seems to favor the non-existence of small corps and the
existence of mega-region super corps at a high cost of competition. I
used to be able to march corps and compete and not have it costs more
than my ground phone, cell phone, cable, and internet bills combined. A
local gym memberships would cut my costs by 75% at least by 75%.
As I ponder the future of a so called championship if only 6 mega corps
compete for 12+ finals spots? Recalling a time not too long ago where a
"regional" meant top 12 finals from the early morning participants for
the night show. x3 major cities on the "SAME" day.
Charlie Groh
<wwwSh...@NOSPAMyahoo.comNOSPAM> wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:09:04 -0800, Charlie Groh wrote:
>
>> ...but missing the point...if you want to have fun in a fraternal-type
>> atmosphere, sure; however,if you want to *compete* (meaning making a
>> stab at actually *winning* anything) then you'd better get your wallat
>> out... and it helps big-time if it's fatter than the next guy.
>
>You're missing my point. It didn't used to cost OUT OF "MY" POCKET to
>compete. And by compete I mean get a score at even the smallest of
>"local" competitions.
...dude, that's not competition, that's participation. What you're
talking about we did in a group called the West Coast Express years
ago (we scored ourselves...at the bar after the show)...I'm not
missing your point, buddy, I'm trying to *clarify*...your "point"
seems more and more like baying at the moon...
>
>In the meantime the high costs of competition is going to make the small
>corps the norm. Especially in todays economy. Although the rules of
>competition seems to favor the non-existence of small corps and the
>existence of mega-region super corps at a high cost of competition. I
>used to be able to march corps and compete and not have it costs more
>than my ground phone, cell phone, cable, and internet bills combined. A
>local gym memberships would cut my costs by 75% at least by 75%.
>
>As I ponder the future of a so called championship if only 6 mega corps
>compete for 12+ finals spots? Recalling a time not too long ago where a
>"regional" meant top 12 finals from the early morning participants for
>the night show. x3 major cities on the "SAME" day.
...my point is the same. No matter what game your into, it's going to
evolve to the level of professionalism. Period. This is fact.
You are the guy with the broken lance and equally broken-down horse
getting set to charge the windmill...sheesh...
cg
the OTHER Mike
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:43:56 -0600, Shadow_7
>
I see your point but at the same time decisions were made to
bastardize this into band that has NOT "saved" costs as was stated.
While some people are in it for the sake of kids, most are involved
for their own needs.
flu...@msn.com
But they got paid...even back in the day...didn't they.
>
> Yes, I get paid to teach as a profession and I teach K-4th general
> music, 2 elementary bands a junior high band and senior band for less
> than $30,000 a year. The K-4 music classes are on MY time as they are
> not part of my salery or job guidelines. I left an 80,000 a year job
> 10 years ago to come back to teaching. I do it full time, not just
> weekends and 3 months during the summer. "I" buy used instruments on
> Ebay so that ANY child that wants to learn can afford to and "ask "
> for $25 a year rental fee so I can buy more instruments.
Excellent...I'm a carpenter who teaches DC, band and winter guard. I
work nine months out of the year averaging 18 hrs a week teaching, 8
hrs a week traveling and 10 hrs a week doing administrative/director
type stuff. Almost a full time job and I don't get paid much (but I do
get paid) and end up donating most of it back to the programs I
teach.
For example...I get $5,000 from the BOE to be director of a HS winter
guard program...instead of taking all the money...I hire two people
for $2,000 each to help me teach. That way the kids have younger more
talented teachers than myself to learn from. The $1,000 doesn't even
cover gas money. So when you say that people like myself who stay
active are in it to make a living off of kids...you're full of it...or
naive....or at least your DC today sucks paint brush is a bit too
wide.
>
> Yet I make a living off the backs of kids ?
Sucks to hear that trash after all you do...doesn't it...I understand.
>
> Now, if you want me to build you a world class model railroad, you're
> gonna pay big bucks for THAT talent as well as my travel money and
> time.
>
> I teach for the love of teaching.
Ditto and I don't make a living from it either. Not that there is
anything wrong with that. There isn't. My wife is a public school
music teacher.
George
Chasgroh
<BleuR...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Nov 18, 5:33?pm, Charlie Groh <chasg...@dslextremerage.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:43:56 -0600, Shadow_7
>>
>> <wwwShad...@NOSPAMyahoo.comNOSPAM> wrote:
>> >On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:09:04 -0800, Charlie Groh wrote:
>>
>> >> ...but missing the point...if you want to have fun in a fraternal-type
>> >> atmosphere, sure; ?however,if you want to *compete* (meaning making a
>> >> stab at actually *winning* anything) then you'd better get your wallat
>> >> out... and it helps big-time if it's fatter than the next guy.
>>
>> >You're missing my point. ?It didn't used to cost OUT OF "MY" POCKET to
>> >compete. ?And by compete I mean get a score at even the smallest of
>> >"local" competitions.
>>
>> ...dude, that's not competition, that's participation. ?What you're
>> talking about we did in a group called the West Coast Express years
>> ago (we scored ourselves...at the bar after the show)...I'm not
>> missing your point, buddy, I'm trying to *clarify*...your "point"
>> seems more and more like baying at the moon...
>>
>>
>>
>> >In the meantime the high costs of competition is going to make the small
>> >corps the norm. ?Especially in todays economy. ?Although the rules of
>> >competition seems to favor the non-existence of small corps and the
>> >existence of mega-region super corps at a high cost of competition. ?I
>> >used to be able to march corps and compete and not have it costs more
>> >than my ground phone, cell phone, cable, and internet bills combined. ?A
>> >local gym memberships would cut my costs by 75% at least by 75%.
>>
>> >As I ponder the future of a so called championship if only 6 mega corps
>> >compete for 12+ finals spots? ?Recalling a time not too long ago where a
>> >"regional" meant top 12 finals from the early morning participants for
>> >the night show. ?x3 major cities on the "SAME" day.
>>
>> ...my point is the same. ?No matter what game your into, it's going to
>> evolve to the level of professionalism. ?Period. ?This is fact.
>>
>> You are the guy with the broken lance and equally broken-down horse
>> getting set to charge the windmill...sheesh...
>>
>> cg
>
>I see your point but at the same time decisions were made to
>bastardize this into band that has NOT "saved" costs as was stated.
>While some people are in it for the sake of kids, most are involved
>for their own needs.
...there's alot of commercialism surely, Mike. With what it's become
how could that *not* happen? Hey, who knows what would've happened
had DCI not come onto the scene (although, again, how could something
like that *not* happen given the circumstances with the vets
organizations vis a vis the great drum corps of the day, eh?). Hey
man, I'd *love* it if things were different and more like when I was a
kid...maybe in some parallel universe that IS the case...unfortunately
it's not. So I choose to deal with the now and work with the kids of
today, with all of today's challenges and problems, as you do! There
are more of US than you think, man...I think there are only a few of
the mega corps where there are *good* livings to be made; most are
more of the subsistence variety...lots of us are like you and George
and me.
I've come to the conclusion that *it* IS a life. What a concept.
cg
Sis
Did you people stay up all night?! Damn, I'm losing it!
Jackie
Shadow_7
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:43:56 -0600, Shadow_7
> <wwwSh...@NOSPAMyahoo.comNOSPAM> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:09:04 -0800, Charlie Groh wrote:
>>
>>> ...but missing the point...if you want to have fun in a fraternal-type
>>> atmosphere, sure; however,if you want to *compete* (meaning making a
>>> stab at actually *winning* anything) then you'd better get your wallat
>>> out... and it helps big-time if it's fatter than the next guy.
>>
>>You're missing my point. It didn't used to cost OUT OF "MY" POCKET to
>>compete. And by compete I mean get a score at even the smallest of
>>"local" competitions.
>
> ...dude, that's not competition, that's participation. What you're
> talking about we did in a group called the West Coast Express years ago
> (we scored ourselves...at the bar after the show)...I'm not missing your
> point, buddy, I'm trying to *clarify*...your "point" seems more and more
> like baying at the moon...
Just trying to justify the clams? For example, IF I march a DCA corps
this year, I'm looking at $25 in gas and $50 in dues for ONE DAY of
rehearsing. The dues are high enough that those fees pretty stay
constant for ALL DAYS with that corps(x20). And that doesn't include any
transportation to any shows, or lodging associated with that commitment.
So to clarify, do I march drumcorps for ONE DAY? Or do an entire year
with the "local" brass band? Or take a lesson from a local hotshot in
some symphony twice a month? The COSTS of participation are now THAT
ridiculous. That IS what it has become. Do you see the delima yet? Do
I sell TWO perfectly good horns to pay my dues for ONE season? Or do I
do nothing. Oh, and remember, just recruit.
Charlie Groh
<wwwSh...@NOSPAMyahoo.comNOSPAM> wrote:
...justify the *what?* Come on...I'm not justifying anything! This
is reality...the clue train is at the station, you oughta get on. You
are into the micro and I'm talking macro...again, sheesh. You spend
so much time pissing and moaning; like George says, it's hard to
believe you were a Freelancer...*they* were tough-minded people...
cg
ns787980
Of course you know who your FRIENDS ARE. JHC... I used to be ONE of
them. I really hate it when people are OBTUSE. You KNOW what I'm
talking about Mr Poche.
>
> > THAT is how I got BANNED from DCP. I'll still comment and needle
> > those that started HERE and went THERE... and feel comfortable with
> > themselves to come here and comment. Those jokers deserve nothing
> > less. IMHO.
>
> Ok, but some of us ( me ) never left RAMD
Did I say anything about - YOU - LEAVING RAMD? Absolutely NOT. Did
I allude to people being TWO-FACED? You bet your ass. YOUR friends
are. And YOU for that matter. Can't take it HERE?
Have to be controlled by DCP? Hell... I have no problem with that.
Just admit it! Have to say... if a RAMD member contributes MORE to a
CONTROLLED newsgroup than fighting it out here?
I would much rather regret what I say here than be banned for it on
DCP.
>
>
>
> > Cause folks that say things like "contribution" don't like to hear
> > about what IS.
>
> Lost me there
>
I just wrote it.
>
>
> > How the genre has depleted from 10's of thousands of corps to just a
> > few hundred. That's DCI. DCA has formulated themselves to DCI that
> > they've marketed themselves OUT of being A SENIOR corps.
>
> I see your point I think, but having been to DCA only once, I'm not
> well versed in what they do.
I wrote it below... And certainly... no one like YOU would comment..
God Forbid...
>
> > It goes on and on.
>
> > Mostly because THOSE posters have OTHER agendas THAT HAVE ABSOLUTELY
> > NOTHING TO DO WITH A POSTER THAT COMMENTED on drum and bugle corps.
>
> HUH ?
Let's look at my comments this way...
Your BAND will NEVER EVER be a BAND again. Because there are people
in YOUR business to make sure YOU WILL NEVER EVER have a band again.
Then say... HUH?
>
> > Having been a benefactor...
>
> Don't feel like the Lone Ranger
Why not?
Between the POLITICS and the folks that suck the LIFE out of the DRUM
AND BUGLE CORPS (and have continued to do for all of THIS century).
Sharon
Shadow_7
Tough Minded != STUPID
I know that drumcorps has never really made sense(business or
otherwise). But it's gotten ridiculous.
Of course I'm howling at the moon, and otherwise moaning. That's what
happens when McDonalds starts charging a $100 cover charge just to buy a
$3 big mac. When I can walk next door and get a whopper for $95 LESS.
Not technically the same thing, but close enough most times.
flu...@msn.com
I don't think so...Tough minded = resilient, steadfast, determined.
Stupid = lazy, whiny, redundant.
Stupid is as stupid does...over and over and over again.
>
> I know that drumcorps has never really made sense(business or
> otherwise). But it's gotten ridiculous.
and speaking of ridiculous...
> Of course I'm howling at the moon, and otherwise moaning. That's what
> happens when McDonalds starts charging a $100 cover charge just to buy a
> $3 big mac. When I can walk next door and get a whopper for $95 LESS.
> Not technically the same thing, but close enough most times.
Enjoy your whopper...don't expect any special sauce...
George
Shadow_7
> I don't think so...Tough minded = resilient, steadfast, determined.
> Stupid = lazy, whiny, redundant.
> Stupid is as stupid does...over and over and over again.
Stupid is donating an ENTIRE MONTHs worth of income, once a year every
year, to do the same damn thing over and over again. So excuse me if my
determination to ONE DAY have the OPTION to RETIRE overrides your need to
make things ridiculously expensive. While whining about how you can't
afford a $50 RAIN COVER for your FUCKING CAMERAS. Or a venue with a
FOOTBALL field (not fooseball) for the CHAMPIONSHIPS.
Not exactly lazy here either. Been there done that and all. Finding it
very difficult to justify continuing to do it. Much less pulling more
people into it to do it with a score. Unless there's some sort of grants
that I'm not utilizing or something. Because spending more than I do on
my CAR per year on corps, much less my wardrobe, is just STUPID.
flu...@msn.com
> On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 05:49:12 -0800, flu...@msn.com wrote:
> > I don't think so...Tough minded = resilient, steadfast, determined.
> > Stupid = lazy, whiny, redundant.
> > Stupid is as stupid does...over and over and over again.
>
> Stupid is donating an ENTIRE MONTHs worth of income, once a year every
> year, to do the same damn thing over and over again. So excuse me if my
> determination to ONE DAY have the OPTION to RETIRE overrides your need to
> make things ridiculously expensive. While whining about how you can't
> afford a $50 RAIN COVER for your FUCKING CAMERAS. Or a venue with a
>
> Not exactly lazy here either. Been there done that and all. Finding it
> very difficult to justify continuing to do it. Much less pulling more
> people into it to do it with a score. Unless there's some sort of grants
> that I'm not utilizing or something. Because spending more than I do on
> my CAR per year on corps, much less my wardrobe, is just STUPID.
Stupid is regurgitating problems you can't or won't solve...CLUE...if
it was free...everyone would be doing it. Just about all hobbies cost
money. Maybe it's time to find a new one...just a little bit cheaper
and a lot less heart breaking.
George
P.S. Freelancers have big brass balls...;]
Shadow_7
> CLUE...if it was free...everyone would be doing it.
And what would be so bad with that? As opposed to less and less free
with shrinking silver plated balls. Smaller and smaller everyday. And
now we have set minimums to mandate the point where they just fall off.
So much for propagation of the species. Death by attrition.