Fwd: Is Your Child in Marching Band?
Real Competition
What would you do if your child entered a spelling bee, spelled every
word correctly, and lost? What if the judges couldn't agree on how to
spell and decided to award placements based on the color co-ordination
of the contestants' clothes? Would that be fair? Would you be upset?
What if some parents invested large sums of money on clothing and
accessories to influence the spelling judges? This tragic scenario is
exactly what is happening in high school marching band competitions
all over the country.
Highly paid "designers" - not your children - have become the focus of
the band score sheets. It is no longer the excellence of student
performance that counts. Over the years, the marching band score
sheets have been changed giving more credit to "art concepts" and less
credit to the performers, your children. Most parents are unaware of
these changes as few have taken the opportunity to read or question
the contest rules. Here are some telling quotes by people who have
influenced these changes:
* "The performers can perform the heck out of a show and without
substansive design they can't win." (Greg Cesario, color guard
designer, DCI Today interview, Winter 1997, Vol 23, n. 1, P. 50)
* "The creators are once again the people who determine what will be
judged and how it will be judged." (Mike Cesario, color guard
esigner, DCI Today interiew, Summer 1998, Vol 24, n. 1, p. 17)
* "The student should always be sacrificed for the design"
...and...
* "The individual should always be sacrificed for the whole."
( Ken Turner, former DCI Judges Administrator and Outcome Based
Education advocate in "Viewing the Band As A Whole", May 2,1992 to
Michigan directors)
Organizations such as BOA (Bands of America), DCI (Drum Corps
International) and WGI (Winter Guard International), promote
themselves as "educational" yet utilize judges without art degrees,
art backgrounds, or professional design experience to evaluate your
children in "design". The problem is that your children do not design
anything. We have judged with these people and find their artistic
knowledge and credentials abysmal. Degrees are not requisite to teach
students how to spin a flag, twirl equipment, or march, yet these
people refer to themselves as "artists" and "educators". What are
their qualifications to use these titles?
Why is this being forced upon children? Why is this happening? There
is a simple answer: MONEY. The goal of the "marching music industry"
is to make money off you and your children. This "industry" has
nothing to do with education. They just want to sell you something.
* "The fact that there are 20,000 marching bands in the United States
probably gives us a feeling for where our potential might be".
(George Hopkins, Executive Director of YEA, Youth Education in the
Arts, a sponsor of marching band and drum corps contests.)
* "I am no fan of competiton". (George Hopkins of YEA.)
Why would anyone sponsor what they do not like?
With score sheets altered to favor "design", band directors and
boosters are forced to "buy" or watch their kids lose. The more the
contests are based upon "design", the more they can be manipulated.
Any parent of a competent speller would cry "foul".
* Judge: "Your band was, player for player, hands down the best band
here."
* Director: "Then explain to me how 12 other bands made finals over
us".
* Judge: "Well, your show was totally uninteresting. You must make a
better effort at show design. Your kids march and play better than
the other bands".
* Director: "I can not believe this."
(With permission from a gulf states band director who requests
anonymity.)
You and your kids are not the focus of "world class design educators",
but are a tool to provide a flow of cash from your pockets to these
designers often at the expense of music education and the lessons
learned from competing with ones peers. Don't just take our word for
it - educate yourself. Ask questions. Don't accept the answer that
these issues are "too artistic" or "too complicated" for you to
understand. They are not. Find out why marching band competitions
are not about which students perform the best but who "buys" the
latest "design fad".
* "Families are expected to ante up $1000 for each child..."
...and...
* "The district spends about $100,000 of school money to support the
band, but the annual budget is about $225,000. The rest comes from
the band boosters". (The Detroit News, Nov. 3, 1998, Plymouth-Canton
Band Gives Its Boosters an A+, by Craig Garrett, p. 1&6.)
* "Some kids were at least 25 feet in the air! The amount of open
space available for a kid to have fallen off was nuts." (Observation
of design props by Dave Below at the MCBDA (Mi) State Championships,
Pontiac MI., November 1998.)
Help us change the rules and score sheet evaluations so that student
performance is given the credit it deserves. Our observations as
judges and instructors leads us to say these competitions have become
"art experiments" and are no longer in the best interests of your
children. What is in their interests - and yours - are competitions
with a focus on marching skills and music achievements.
What can you do?
1) Ask your band director for a copy of your local circuits rules.
2) If your band does BOA or USSBA competitions, ask for those rules.
3) Read the "design" section of the judging manuals. Question the
band director. Ask why there are so many points for "design".
4) Ask the band director for the judges and staffs art credentials.
Call the judges circuit and ask them too.
5) Ask other boosters and booster clubs how much they paid for their
show.
6) Ask your children what they learn about "art" from the band design
staff.
7) E-mail us with your complaints of dangerous or obtuse design
props.
8) Send us E-mail addresses of other parents, judges, directors and
interested parties so that we may send future updates on these
issues.
9) Contact the local school principal, superintendent of schools, the
board of education and your local state representative. Inform
them.
10) Copy this letter and share it with as many people as you can.
Send replies to: REAL...@hotmail.com
Contributors:
* Ken Mazur - President: Silverdot Architectural Illustration and
Design, Alumnus: Phantom Regiment and Glassmen Drum and Bugle Corps,
Former Instructor: Phantom Regiment Drum and Bugle Corps, Judge of
band and corps contests for 24 years, Band Instructor and Arranger,
Author of music books.
* Robb Sirat - Financial Services, Alumnus: Blue Devils and Crossmen
Drum and Bugle Corps, Former Instructor: Blue Devils Drum and Bugle
Corps, Judge of band contests for 12 years, Band Instructor and
Arranger.
* Rick Beckham - Software Development and Research in Telephony,
Alumnus: 27th Lancers and Garfield Cadets Drum and Bugle Corps, Band
Instructor and Arranger, Author of music books.
* Dave Below - Audio/Visual Technician in advertising, Alumnus:
Crossmen and Royal Lancers Drum and Bugle Corps; Trenton High
School band, Former Instructor: 12th Command Drum and Bugle Corps,
Ferndale (MI) High School Band, Maverix Winter Percussion, performing
jazz musician.
* James Christian - Student - Alumnus: Bayou City Blues Drum and
Bugle Corps and Princeton (TX) High School Band, Instructor of local
programs, current competitor in national music contests.
______________________________________________________
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nkw2581
misguided sense of enlightenment?
Real Competition wrote:
CabanaTree
Drms4ever
do fine. Nothing flashy. Infact the students compplain it's not flashy
themselves. This problem is NOT everywhere and you're being very misleading by
saying it is.
mik...@my-dejanews.com
real...@hotmail.com ("Real Competition") wrote:
>
> 2) If your band does BOA or USSBA competitions, ask for those rules.
Your entire premise falls apart looking at USSBA, at least. In that circuit,
there are 5 20-point sheets. One is field level music performance, another is
music ensemble performance, a third is visual performance, a fourth is
Effect/visual, and the last Effect/music.
As you can see, there are 60 points assigned to determine how well the band is
performing, both musically and visually. 40 of those are for the music, the
primary focus of any scholastic music program. The Effect captions deal more
with how well the band is communicating the music/drill than how they are
written/designed.
> 3) Read the "design" section of the judging manuals. Question the
> band director. Ask why there are so many points for "design".
There aren't.
Mike
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LATHO717
that high school marching band has gotten out of hand, and really has been for
a while, just at different levels. the regional competitions such as BOA do
not help the situation, they merely give small-town band directors delusions of
grandeur.
there is nothing wrong with trying to get young uns to reach their full
potential, even in marching band. when that activity becomes their "reason for
living" that's when i have a problem with it. my son was censured in front of
the whole band for attending an SAT prep course, causing him to miss a band
practice. priorities?
show design is critical in competition there is no denying that, in marching
band as well as drum corps. but when you put 15 y/o girls on the field in
saturday nite slut clothes, i think you have missed the point of marching
band.or if you put a flute in a fat girl's hand, because she "doesn't fit the
show" that is not right. violins and electric guitars in marching band?
whatever it takes to win, right?
i apologize for going on so about marching band on the drum corps bb, i am a
drum corps fan first, and mighty grateful my youngest has only 1 year of
marching band left, and he may choose to forego that for academics since he can
still march drum corps. it will be their loss. la
Kristian Mark Twombly
: Contributors:
: * Ken Mazur - President: Silverdot Architectural Illustration and
: * Robb Sirat - Financial Services
: * Rick Beckham - Software Development and Research in Telephony
: * Dave Below - Audio/Visual Technician in advertising,
: * James Christian - Student -
Interstingly enough....*one* of the contributors has included any
design/art credentials, and that as an administrator/manager.
Personally, I am dismayed by the *importance* of certain aspects of High
School shows and the *lack* of importance of competant design. I just sat
through a 25 band show and cringed 25 times. Yeah, the sheets talk about
art/design elements, but RARELY are those issues discussed...it is all
performance on the tapes, guys....I know. You want to know what to say to
a parent when they ask why a band with better design beat you? How about
wondering what to tell a kid when they come and ask you why a band that
doesn't move or that plays "My Heart Will Go On" followed by "Firebird"
beat them?
Come on....either pull out of those circuits that aren't to your liking or
stop posting drivel.
Flames welcome...
Kristian Twombly
twom...@eng.umd.edu
ps- Hopkins is right...is ISN'T about competition, it's about the
kids being able to go home after a show feeling good about themselves and
knowing that they learned something from their experience. "Designers"
are just helping them reach that goal. If it were about the designer,
then the designers would be out there marching....
mik...@my-dejanews.com
lath...@aol.com (LATHO717) wrote:
> while i feel the post is a liitle paranoid and a touch alarmist, i do agree
> that high school marching band has gotten out of hand, and really has been for
> a while, just at different levels. the regional competitions such as BOA do
> not help the situation, they merely give small-town band directors delusions
of
> grandeur.
But you have no problem with your child marching in DCI?
> there is nothing wrong with trying to get young uns to reach their full
> potential, even in marching band.
Hmmm... what does 'even in marching band' refer to? Are you awarding it a
lower status than DC?
> when that activity becomes their "reason for living" that's when i have a
problem with it.
Do you have a problem with DC being a "reason for living"?
> my son was censured in front of
> the whole band for attending an SAT prep course, causing him to miss a band
> practice. priorities?
Bad move by the director, esp if it was only for a single practice.
> show design is critical in competition there is no denying that, in marching
> band as well as drum corps. but when you put 15 y/o girls on the field in
> saturday nite slut clothes, i think you have missed the point of marching
> band.
Is it OK to do so in DC? Personally, I'm with you; I prefer the classier and
elegant look myself.
> or if you put a flute in a fat girl's hand, because she "doesn't fit the
> show" that is not right.
I assume she was removed form the guard; also not right, but it's the
director's misguided fault, not the activity's. What if that person were not
allowed in a DC guard because of her size? Would you be as up-in-arms? I
would.
> violins and electric guitars in marching band?
Sure, why not?
> i apologize for going on so about marching band on the drum corps bb, i am a
> drum corps fan first, and mighty grateful my youngest has only 1 year of
> marching band left, and he may choose to forego that for academics since he
can
> still march drum corps. it will be their loss. la
Are all of the above complaints bad if applied to band but OK to apply to
corps?
They are bad decisions in either activity, IMHO.
What if your son's college required him to be on campus for testing or
orientation or something mandatory during a corps camp week, or during tour?
Pattycs4
WINNING or scoring[ placing] higher in many drum and bugle corps.Many corps
even abuse members if they don't perforn at a certian level. Dont even say it
aint so, I know that it is so from first hand experience. Michael howdy Schmidt
p.s. Education also takes second place to winning in many highschool marching
bands. This is very sad .One local high school that i taught at only required
their members to play 3 major scales. 3 scales was all they ever played. FROW n
Pattycs4
george dont go into cardiac arrest} Lets give all the kids a great experience,
not just 1 band. I like the festival format for many bands. If you dont think
your band has a real good chance to win, why not participate in the festival
format. This year i saw many bands in the festival div. that i enjoyed
michael e schmidt
Pattycs4
LATHO717
is that marching band is a public school sponsored activity, which seems to
have become an ego-tool for some band directors, while drum corps is a
semi-professional, for pay, (?) activity. the full potential to which i am
referring is thru all areas of SCHOOL.
in my opinion, drum corps teaches life lessons as well as music (maybe more so)
in ways the marching band cannot. i was not making a compairison of DC and MB,
simply musing aloud why a school sponsored activity is trying so hard be act,
well, professional.
btw for the record, my kids have missed school for drumcorps, as well as for
marching band.
and oh, yeah, i gave up the flute. thanks for replying! la
Pattycs4
prep class. This is why most band students receive even a poor music education
while in highschool. Ask a h s band director,[ i wonder ] how many of his/her
students can play all 12 major, 12 relative minor, 12 melodic minor, and 12
harmonic minor scales? How many h s band students are well read in music
history, classical music, and could pass the college ent. music theory exam?
How many kids know all the musical terms?etc... not many...almost all col.
fresh fail the ent. music theory exam, over half of col. music majors fail the
piano proficency exam. Most h s band students are unprepared for college. But
their h s bands have BIG trophys!!! augh
Michael Schmidt
James Christian
> In article <1998111809...@law-f99.hotmail.com>,
> real...@hotmail.com ("Real Competition") wrote:
>
> > 4) Ask the band director for the judges and staffs art credentials.
> > Call the judges circuit and ask them too.
>
> Uh oh, I'm in trouble here. I've been teaching marching at my old high
> school for four years now, I even have revised a few drill charts here and
> there, and I don't have any art credentials. I can't draw very well, don't
> know about shading or tinting, and I'm certainly not an officer of an
> architectural design company.
But you don't claim to be an educator in design or an artist, do you? Real
educators have credentials. Real artists know something about art, and they
can competently draw, paint, etc. If someone is going to use these fake
titles, they'd better be ready to fess up.
> Of course, I've not yet figured out how being an architect is any sort of
> qualification to write drill for bands or drumcorps. I don't even know why
> drill writers need to know about shading, tinting, or any of that other art
> stuff (they don't). I guess I'm not much of a design genius.
It *isn't* neccessary. That's the whole point! Many circuits, judges, and
designers pretend that they understand all of this stuff, and that it actually
has relevancy to dot-to-dot drill writing. THEY are the ones who are saying
it's necessary. It's a sham.
Rudimentally yours,
James Christian
Stuart E. Rice
CAREFULLY)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:12:07 -0700
From: "Stuart E. Rice" <ser...@juno.com>
Organization: Flatland Press
NOTE: This repost is itself almost entirely unedited [my comments], and
contains a spoonful of humor to help these individual's subliminally
disgruntled comments go down.
S.R.
>Dear RAMD:
>
>I feel it important to add some comments to this before it gets to you:
>
>S.R.
>
>On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:08:22 EST NOTI...@aol.com writes:
>
>Thought you'd like the final draft. Did you know a kid fell off the 20 ft. >high prop in Colorado at a show and they had to call an ambulance?
>
>Subject: "Is Your Child In Marching Band?"
>Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 04:35:35 EST
>
>"Is Your Child In Marching Band?"
>
>What would you do if your child entered a spelling bee and lost even >though they correctly spelled all the words?
"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities
in
our air and water that are doing it."
-- Former U.S. Vice-President Dan Quayle
>What would you say if the judes couldn't agree on the spelling and >decided instead to award placements based on the color co-ordination >of the contestant's clothes?
"Whenever I watch TV and see those poor starving kids all over the
world, I can't help but cry. I mean I'd love to be skinny like that but
not with all those flies and death and stuff."
-- Mariah Carey
>Would that be fair? Would you be upset?
"That lowdown scoundrel deserves to be kicked to death by a jackass,
and I'm just the one to do it."
-- A congressional candidate in Texas
>What if some parents then spent large sums of money on clothes to >influence the spelling judges?
"If you let that sort of thing go on, your bread and butter will be cut
right out from under your feet."
-- Former British foreign minister Ernest Bevin
>This is exactly what is happening in high school marching band >competitions all over the country.
"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
-- Former French President Charles De Gaulle
>My name is Ken Mazur, a competitor, judge, arranger and instructor in >the marching band/drum corps activity for 36 years.
"I've never had major knee surgery on any other part of my body."
-- Winston Bennett, University of Kentucky basketball forward
>Others have contributed to this letter and have had similar >experiences.
"Researchers have discovered that chocolate produces some of the same
reactions in the brain as marijuana. The researchers also discovered
other similarities between the two, but can't remember what they are."
-- Matt Lauer on NBC's Today show, August 22
>The above scenario is what we have observe happen as highly paid >"designers", not your children, have become the focus of the band score >sheets. It is no longer the excellence of student performance that >counts.
"Half this game is ninety percent mental."
-- Philadelphia Phillies manager Danny Ozark
>Over the years, the score sheets have been changed to reward so-called >"art concepts" over the performance of your children. Most parents are >unaware of these changes as they have never read, have access to, or >question the rules that govern the contests.
"I'm not going to have some reporters pawing through our papers. We
are the president."
-- Hillary Clinton commenting on the release of subpoenaed documents
Firstly, what Ken is trying to say is that the quality of individual
performance no longer matters as much as it used to. Quality is being
measured at such a great distance (example: many more judges in the
press box than when DCI was formed) that judges have developed a sort of
myopia. Drum corps are being rewarded more for the end result than the
means. "Concept" has indeed overrun the values and essense of the
activity and its craft.
It is wrong, however, to therefrom jump to the conclusion that
"designers," or choreographers of marching, don't deserve every penny
they make. Marching choreography is what makes shows worth marching.
The trick lies in making sure that choreography has made marching
*possible*, and not just that instructors have succeeded in whipping
lines into shape well enough for formations to hang together from the
view of the press box. This is not the choreographers fault (although
they should make a much greater effort to insure quality execution -
they tend to look with their imagination, and are easily satified
thereby).
if we want a creative activity, we'd better hire an artist to
provide the blueprint, and pay them well enough to encourage their
development. if we want to empower participants with greater
performance responsibilities, then we have to teach them the craft of
marching, and judge them by their efforts. This implies that we
actually study it ourselves, which in most respects we have yet to do.
We know nothing of biomechanics, physiology, perception, or psychology.
>Here are some telling quotes collected from people who have influenced >these changes:
>
>* "The performers can perform the heck out of a show and without >substansive [sp] design, they can't win." (Greg Cesario, color guard >designer, DCI Today interview, Winter 1997, Vol 23, n. 1)
>* "The creators are once again the people who determine what will be >judged and how it will be judged." (Mike Cesario, color guard >designer, DCI Today interview, Summer 1998, Vol 24, n. 1)
When I have been asked during these last weeks who caused the riots
and the killing in L.A., my answer has been direct and simple: Who is to
blame for the riots? The rioters are to blame. Who is to blame for the
killings? The killers are to blame."
-- Former U.S. Vice-President Dan Quayle on the complex social issues
behind the Los Angeles Riots
>* "The student should always be sacrificed for the design."
>....and....
>* "The individual should always be sacrificed for the whole." (Ken >Turner, DCI Judge Administrator and Outcome Based Education advocate. >May 2, 1992 to Michigan band directors in "Viewing The Band As A >Whole")
I have serious reservations about the validity of this term "Outcome
Based Education" term Ken is using, insofar as this is the first time
I've even seen him capitalize it, and insofar as it bears little
resemblance to the more common term for this ideology in music education
- performance based music education (as opposed to discipline based).
Performance is the common agenda and approach to music education today -
the common measure of a "successful" program. Emphasis is placed not so
much on learning but on performing (rather than "outcome).
>Organizations such as BOA (Bands of America), DCI (Drum Corps >International) and WGI (Winter Guard International), promote >themselves as "educational" yet provide judges with no art degrees, art >background, or professional design experience to judge your children in >"design". The problem is your children do not design anything. We have >judged next to these people and find their artistic knowledge and >credentials abysmal.
"I don't feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from them.
There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and the
Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves."
-- John Wayne
>A degree is not required to teach a student how to spin a flag, twirl >equipment, or march, yet they refer to themselves as "artists" and >"educators". What are their qualifications to use those titles?
"The government is not doing enough about cleaning up the environment.
This is a good planet."
-- Mr. New Jersey contestant when asked what he would do with a
million dollars.
I would have to agree that the term "educator" is a serious faux pas in
an activity which doesn't ask as much of its judges. Particularly for
an activity that wishes to court the favors of school music educators
who feel they have worked hard to be deserving of a title which
transcends that of the "piano lady down the street" who helps kids
through the daily dozen for 5 bucks an hour (whether educators have
truly transcended that is another matter).
The term "artist," however, is not such a big deal - particularly when
the identity of the art remains so ambiguous. I can't speak for
ancillarists with authority, but more appropriate than the now outdated
term "drill writers" (though useful at times) is choreographers of
marching. It is in fact fair to say that choreographed marching is
approaching the status of a performing art. Regardless of how prepared
we are to recognize this, it is not such a great stretch for
choreographers of marching to refer to themselves as artists. Any
aspiring artists has a certain amount of license to do so, even though
they, like many "musicians," may have yet to "arrive".
In a sense, no one has ever been worthy of the title of
"artist," but that wouldn't be too reasonable. Better to let everyone
use the term than no one. On the other hand, it is best to have some
accreditable means of differentiating different levels of success,
experience, and education among choreographers of marching, and here is
where the real problem lies.
>Why is this being forced upon children? Why is this happening? There >is a simple answer: MONEY. There is money to be made off you and >your children. That's why they call it the "marching music industry."
(Who is "they"?)
>This "industry" has nothing to do with education. They just want to >sell you something:
"Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public
mind."
-- General William Westmoreland
There is no crime in that. This is America. Our responsibility is to
be wise consumers so our decisions don't enslave us.
>* "The fact that there are 20,000 marching bands in the United States
>probably gives us a feeling for where our potential might be." (George
>Hopkins, Executive Director of YEA, Youth Education in the Arts, an
>organization that sponsors band and drum corps contests.)
>* "I am no fan of competition." (George Hopkins, YEA)
>Why would anyone promote what they do not like?
Those statements, of course, are not contradictory. He doesn't suggest
that he want's to see these groups slug it out. We must not jump to
conclusions. Hopkins' Cadets of Bergen County, it should be remembered,
are known for having a taste for non-competitive, Brass Theater-Style
drum corps.
>You and you kids are not the focus of "world class design educators", >but are a tool
"They're multipurpose. Not only do they put the clips on, but they take
them off."
-- Pratt & Whitney spokesperson explaining why the company charged
the Air Force nearly $1000 for an ordinary pair of pliers.
Here we have a "music teacher" complaining that our music students have
to pay for what they are not being taught. Comedy.
>to provide a flow of cash from your pockets to the "designers" and >"judges".... often at the expense of music education and the lessons >learned competing against ones peers.
>Don't just take our word for it - educate yourself. Ask questions.
While you're at it, ask why your band director has to buy his drill.
>Don't accept the answer that these things are "too artistic", or "too >complicated" for you to understand. They are not.
"What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being
very wasteful. How true that is."
-- Former U.S. Vice-President Dan Quayle at a fundraising event for
the United Negro College Fund. He was attempting to quote the line "a
mind is a terrible thing to waste"
>Find out why school band competitions are not about who performs the >best but who "buys" the latest "design" fad.
This is where rationale goes awry. It's no secret that drill today is
inscrutable. The fact that some (frequently encouraged by designers)
have taken this sophistication as a superior class of drill should not
surprise us. We all know there are unscrupulous "artists" out there in
every medium. To paraphrase a caption from the cartoon strip "Al
Capp": "Modern Art: made by the debased, sold by the unprincipled, and
bought by the bewildered". Paintings from gorillas (and many humans who
paint as well) have gone for thousands. Artists die in poverty without
selling a single one of their works which will, and in a hundred years,
fetch multi-million dollar world offers at auctions. Art has always
been an unruly field full of subversion, travesty, and corrupt
patronage.
No art is above this. Music included.
The sad truth is, choreographers and instructors of marching are
not educated correctly and thoroughly enough to justify their claim to
the art. As a result, the drills themselves usually determine the
winners in the end, if for no other reason than the fact that better
drill inspires better efforts from staff and performers. Until we have
standards determined by regulated education which levels the creative
playing field, we will likely continue to see the best drills in the
winning corps. This does not mean, however, that opportunities to
promote a drill may not pass by if it is not well executed. Good drill
depends on good technique and executional development to come across.
>* "The district spends about $100,000 of school money to support the >band, but the annual budget is about $225,000. The rest comes from the >band boosters."
"I haven't committed a crime. What I did was fail to comply with the
law."
-- David Dinkins, New York City Mayor, answering accusations that he
failed to pay his taxes.
That's just the way things are, and I'm often reminded of the many music
educators who are jealous of the support marching bands create for music
in their communities. I have seen less wise funding decisions made in
the interest of concert bands.
In the school I taught, the director before me had spent three
years trying to create a band program from less than nothing. They did
amazing things. Unfortunately, this director decided that, rather than
invest in some marching band equipment to make the music program more
visible and attractive to students, develop body rhythm, and create an
environment for a more physical and recreational experience of music, an
alto clarinet should be purchased for a few thousand dollars. I had no
clarinet students willing or able to commit to it, and no literature
which justified it at their level of skill development. So it sat there
during my brief tenure, and probably sits there today.
We had a marching band my first year, buying and borrowing all
the equipment we needed to field it for a fraction of the cost of the
also clarinet. The marching band created a greater stir within the
community and greater interest in band than anything ever had. But
that's not likely to continue without a small miracle, thanks to music
educators who think that music programs are built on alto clarinets and
ensembles who play to audiences comprised of the same people who listen
to them practice every night.
[The following was added to the Final Final Draft:]
--------------------
With score sheets altered to favor "design", band directors and
boosters are forced to "buy" or watch their kids lose. The more the
contests are based upon "design", the more they can be manipulated.
Any parent of a competent speller would cry "foul".
This is pure paranoia. Judges who evaluate musical criteria usually
have not much interest in marching, and have absolutely no
accountability or obligation to the hundreds of "designers"
choreographing in competition with one another. The conspiracy theory
is myth. Don't swallow it. It will just make you ask sick as these
authors are trying their best not to reveal.
* Judge: "Your band was, player for player, hands down the best band
here."
* Director: "Then explain to me how 12 other bands made finals over
us".
* Judge: "Well, your show was totally uninteresting. You must make a
better effort at show design. Your kids march and play better than
the other bands".
This statement is an indication of how lousy their marching must have
been in contrast to their music. A decent-playing, decent-marching band
will beat a good-playing, lousy-marching band every time. During my
first year as a band director of a crippled program, my band of 10
winds, 2 percussion, and 5 guard came within a point of beating a band
of 70. And only half of my band could read music. The judges remarks
were a backhanded compliment to be sure, unless you can accept the fact
that music doesn't compensate for everything in an interdisciplinary
medium (particularly when it is not the primary medium). If I had to go
watch the Nutcracker with people running, shuffling, and falling all
over the stage, I'd want my money back. You don't give concerts
outside. You perform choreographed marching *accompanied* by music.
That is what marching band is.
* Director: "I can not believe this."
(With permission from a gulf states band director who requests
anonymity.)
Believe it. And don't send off in the mail for your music degree next
time.
--------------------------
>* "Families are expected to ante up $1000 for each child....."
>(Plymouth-Canton Band Gives Its Boosters An A+, The Detroit News, >Nov. 3 1998, section D, p.1&6, by Craig Garrett)
Their methods of doing so are better than bingo. There are dozens of
bands in this country for which raising that type of funding would be
worth. Touring and competing on a national level is a valuable part of
maintaining support and interest in a deserving program. And we should
not forget that drum corps played a key role in promoting this
philosophy in the 1970s and 1980s.
We do our interests a great disservice by knocking these
programs. They promote the marching arts much more effectively than we
do. And they are beholden to us for it. If we go around badmouthing
touring, we saw off the branch on which we sit. With less than 100
junior corps (Drum Corps World tabloid, Nov. 1998), I don't think we can
afford to do that.
>* "Some kids were at least 25 feet in the air up on planks of wood with >thin "guard rails". The amount of open space available for someone to >have just fallen through onto the contest field was nuts." >(Observation of instructor Dave Below, at the 1998 MCBDA (Mi.) State >Championships, Pontiac, Mi.)
Observations of someone who apparently lacks the credentials and (by
endorsing this unproductive tirade) concern for the marching arts to
offer solutions to such problems, and who would probably do the same
thing if he thought he could win.
I think most of us agree this kind of thing is not too great an idea.
Crazier things have been done in the name of innovation, and there
again, innovation is largely a product of drum corps. How much are we
to blame in music education and drum corps, however? Typically, if we
don't give high schools ideas like these directly, we send them looking
for them.
>Help us change the rules and score sheet evaluations so that student >performance is far more important than the "design".
It takes good performance to realize good choreography or misnomered
"design".
>If these people want toexperiment with "art" and "design",
Choreographed marching is not design, nor is it a painting you hang on a
wall. It is a performing art. It is two-dimensional dance.
>let them experiment on something other than school children.
Such as?
>What we have observed as judges and instructors leads us to say these >competitions are not in your child's best interest. What is in their >interest - and yours - are youth music/marching competitions with the >focus on marching skills and real music achievements.
1. It is a contradiction to suggest marching skills are in student's
interest while saying there is no way for these skills to be properly
evaluated and effectively administered.
2. It is hypocritical to criticize others for their administration of
marching while offering no suggestions for how they can be developed
more cheaply and educationally.
3. It is foolish to suggest the evaluation and administration of
marching band is being hog-tied and monopolized by
A. a large and disparate population of uneducated individuals who are
well known to be completely unregulated, unorganized, and unaccountable
B. within an educated, organized field like music education, whose
leaders are not ashamed to publicly declare they should "get rid of" the
marching band (Mike Miller, Music Educator's National Conference Western
Division President, 1994).
Ken it out of touch with music education.
Further, "real music" is not to be made out-of-doors. And dashing to
rearrange the scoring system will solve nothing in and of itself. We
must gather a consensus of authority to establish and regulate standards
which underlie adjudicated criteria. Changing the scoring system only
treats the symptoms, not the illness.
>What can you do?
>* Ask your band director for a copy of your local circuits rules. >Read them.
"I love California. I practically grew up in Phoenix."
-- Former U.S. Vice-President Dan Quayle
A good idea, if your band director understands them. Otherwise, you're
back where you started. All the education in the world is useless in an
unregulated field.
>* If your band does BOA or USSBA competitons, ask for those rules. >Read the "design" section. Question the band director. Ask why so >many points are for design.
Question: If you could live forever, would you and why?
Answer: "I would not live forever, because we should not live forever,
because if we were supposed to live forever, then we would live forever,
but we cannot live forever, which is why I would not live forever."
-- Miss Alabama in the 1994 Miss USA contest
There is a hidden agenda here. Ken is upset about the number of
points assigned to the percussion caption than in years past, which he
recently expressed to me (as well as thousands of others in the past
decade or two, likely). He will also advance this agenda indirectly by
complaining about the number of points assigned to the music caption
itself. This is understandable (everyone wants more points - especially
those who play the zero-sum game), but it is inappropriate to take it
out on other captions. Particularly those captions, such as marching
choreography, which music accompanies in the marching arts.
Further, this suggestion is what is known as incendiary - a
question designed to infer something it doesn't dare to confess openly
(that the "designs," or choreography which students are executing, staff
are striving to help them express, and directors are creating musical
accompaniment for, does not deserve as much credit or influence in
scoring as the marching art receives.
The question is designed to put directors in the uncomfortable
position of either supporting the values of the music profession he
represents and censuring a developing interdisciplinary medium it
frequently chooses not to recognize, or supporting the ensemble which
creates interest in his program and sacrificing the support and respect
of his colleagues.
Its a very diabolical and destructive position in our business,
and a political posturing which demagogues use to gain political
leverage in situations of which do not favor their interests to their
satisfaction. But that's the way it is in the marching arts. Music
accompanies marching, and borrows its repertoire from other media
according to the needs of the choreography, created new each year.
>* Ask the band director for the judge's and staff's art credentials. >Call the judges circuit and ask them too.
Incendiary again. Antagonistic and counterproductive. Judges are given
no credentials for their task (except in WGI, as I understand), and
higher education supports a judging certification process on a very
limited basis (a few hours). In short, there is no creditable education
or authorization to be found anywhere in the marching arts, and exposing
this fact without being prepared with an extremely well studied and
detailed plan may discourage and devalue an otherwise worthy and
experienced judge.
>* Ask your band boosters and other schools boosters how much they paid >for their show "design."
Ken and I both use quotation marks around the word "design" but for
entirely different reasons. He uses them because he feels today's
drills are not designed well enough to meet the standards of fine art,
of which he is acquainted. I use them because drill is not "design".
It is choreography. It is a performing art, not a painting.
>* Ask your children what they learn about "art" from the band design >staff.
Ask any dancer, for that matter. The word "art" carries with it too
many connotations of design and paintings for any relevance in the
performing arts. Performing artists are performers. Painters,
sculptors, and to some extent architects are "artists".
>* E-mail us with your complaints of dangerous or obtuse design props.
"Smoking kills. If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of
your life."
-- Brooke Shields, during an interview to become spokesperson for a
federal anti-smoking campaign
A good idea.
>* Send us e-mail addresses of other parents, judges, directors and >interested parties so that we may send future updates and mailings.
"We're going to turn this team around 360 degrees."
-- Jason Kidd, upon his drafting to the Dallas Mavericks
And why not. If you do, please also send them this post, so they may be
disabused of the negative agendas and erroneous ideas between the
lines.. Kens text is completely unedited. The only changes were the
added commentary and technical information about the mailing itself.
>* Contact your local school principal, superintendent of schools, >board of education and your local state representative. Inform them.
Be prepared with solutions. Don't waste their time and they won't waste
yours. Contact your school's activities/judges association first.
>*Copy this letter and tell as many people as you can.
PLEASE use this version, which includes input from a person with
marching and music credentials, qualified to say objectively what's
really going on [you may want to delete the jokes first].
>Contributors:
>* Ken Mazur - President: Silverdot Architectural Illustration and >Design, Performer: Phantom Regiment and Glassmen Drum and Bugle Corps, >Former Instructor: Phantom Regiment Drum and Bugle Corps, Judge of >band and corps contests for 24 years, Author of music books.
"Musician". No qualifications in marching or public education..
>* Robb Sirat - Financial Services, Performer: Blue Devils and >Crossmen Drum and Bugle Corps, Former Instructor: Blue Devils Drum >and Bugle Corps, Judge of band contests for 12 years.
"Musician". No qualifications in marching or public education.
>* Rick Beckham - Software Development and Research in Telephony,
>Performer: 27th Lancers and Garfield Cadets Drum and Bugle Corps,
>Instructor/Arranger for high school bands, Author of music books.
"Musician". No qualifications in marching or public education.
>* Dave Below - Audio/Visual Technician in Advertising, Performer: >Crossmen Drum and Bugle Corps and Trenton High Schol Band (Mi.), >Former Instructor/Arranger: 12th Command Drum and Bugle Corps, >Ferndale High School Band (Mi.), Maverix Winter Percussion Line. >Performing jazz musician.
"Musician". No qualifications in marching or public education.
>* James Christian - Student - Performer: Bayou City Blues Drum and >Bugle Corps and Princeton High School Band (Tx.), Instructor of local >programs, current competitor in national contests.
"Musician". No qualifications in marching or public education.
>Stuart E. Rice
>Editor, Flatland Press
>ser...@juno.com
>www.geocities.com/paris/metro/8226
Chairman, RAMD Virtual Symposium 1995, 1998
>
>Case Management Intake Coordinator, Intermountain Health Care, 1998-
> (Official Sponsor of the 2002 Winter Olympic Games)
>Retired music teacher of grades K-12, 1996-1997
>Retired librarian, 1983-1996
>Bachelor of Music Degree, instrumental emphasis
>School Teacher, Utah State Board of Education Certified, 1996-2000
>Graduate of the George N. Parks Drum Major Academy, 1982
>Member of the Blue Devils Drum and Bugle Corps, 1983
>Instructor and choreographer of drum corps, junior high, high school,
> and college marching band, 1982-1997
>Retired Editorialist, Drum Corps World Tabloid 1996-1998
>Freelance Writer/Researcher/Analyst of choreographed marching, 1993-
>Former student of:
> Gary Ofenloch, 1994-1996
> (Principal Tuba, Utah Symphony/Boston Pops)
> Per Brevig, 1993
> (Principal Trombone, New York Metropolitan Opera)
> Larry Zalkind, 1991-1993
> (Principal Trombone, Utah Symphony)
> Carol Lessinger, 1988-1989
> (Feldenkrais Awareness Through Movement/Functional Integration)
> Tim Sheehan, 1990
> (Tai-Chi Chuan)
> Jack Livingston, 1988-1989
> (Tai-Chi Chuan)
> Ronald Crosby, 1984-1986
> (Art Design)
Musician. Qualifications in marching or public education.
mold...@gac.edu
> 4) Ask the band director for the judges and staffs art credentials.
> Call the judges circuit and ask them too.
Uh oh, I'm in trouble here. I've been teaching marching at my old high
school for four years now, I even have revised a few drill charts here and
there, and I don't have any art credentials. I can't draw very well, don't
know about shading or tinting, and I'm certainly not an officer of an
architectural design company.
Of course, I've not yet figured out how being an architect is any sort of
qualification to write drill for bands or drumcorps. I don't even know why
drill writers need to know about shading, tinting, or any of that other art
stuff (they don't). I guess I'm not much of a design genius.
Michael Oldemeyer
Phantom Regiment 94,6,8.
euphonium
RDeschene
<snip>
>, while drum corps is a
>semi-professional, for pay, (?) activity.
Drum corps has long suffered from being mistakenly tagged with that
label, "professional marching band." It's no such thing. As far as I
know, no corps members are paid to march. In fact, it's just the
opposite; corps members *pay* to march.
In my experience, it cost me a lot more (from 1978 to 1980) to march
corps than it did to march in my high school and college marching
bands. I taught high school color guard from 1978 to 1993, and yes,
there were additional fees for each band member, and especially for
each guard member (shoes and other uniform accessories); however, I
suspect that it didn't cost them nearly as much to march in band as it
would've to march corps.
Sue
RDeschene
On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 06:26:32 GMT, I wrote:
>I taught high school color guard from 1978 to 1993,...
Not that it really matters, but I actually taught guard from '78 to
'93, starting with a college guard in '78; I didn't start teaching
high school guard 'til '80.
Heh. You never know who might be checkin' up on you .... ;-)
Sue
mik...@my-dejanews.com
lath...@aol.com (LATHO717) wrote:
> mike you raise some good points,
I hear a 'but' coming on. :-)
>and i think the distinction i make in my mind
> is that marching band is a public school sponsored activity, which seems to
> have become an ego-tool for some band directors, while drum corps is a
> semi-professional, for pay, (?) activity.
1) Kids don't get paid to march, they pay to march in DC.
2) Band directors who are in it for their own ego stroking are in the
minority; there are bad eggs in every field. Most of the ones I've come in
contact with, from those with champion-caliber bands to those with beginners,
are in it because they like to teach music. I've taught at every level, from
tech through band director, at 13 schools, and have judged probably close to
a thousand bands over the years, and have rarely run into the type of person
you describe.
> in my opinion, drum corps teaches life lessons as well as music (maybe more
so)
> in ways the marching band cannot.
DC is a great activity. I spent 8 years in it myself, from parade corps to
class 'B' to Garfield. I have no doubt that DC is a great activity. However,
I also see MB as providing much the same experience, within the scholastic
environment.
> i was not making a compairison of DC and MB,
> simply musing aloud why a school sponsored activity is trying so hard be act,
> well, professional.
Because you try and teach your students to maximize their potential, whatever
that level may be. Band does it, sports teams do it, the debating team does
it, evey activity strives for their participants to be the best that they
can.
> btw for the record, my kids have missed school for drumcorps, as well as for
> marching band.
That's a choice you and your kids make. There are choices to be made in every
activity.
> and oh, yeah, i gave up the flute. thanks for replying! la
>
You should have kept playing!
Mike, Garfield 70-72
RBrown4431
It is assumed that art can only exist as a graphic physical medium. There is no
allowance for movement art, performance art, audio art, or art of any other
plateau than those of drawing and architecture.
Art: the skilful, systematic arrangement or adaption of means for the
attainment of some end, especially by human endeavor as opposed to natural
forces. Or...the practical application of knowledge or natural ability: skilled
workmanship; mastery, dexterity. Or...a set or system of rules (not drawn),
principles, etc, devised for procuring some scientific, ESTHETIC, or practical
result, as by exercise; a branch of learning to be studied in order to be
applied. Or...the application, or the principles of application, of skill,
knowledge, etc, in a creative effort to produce works that have form of beauty,
esthetic expression of feeling, etc, as in <here we go....> music, painting,
sculpture, literature, architecture, and the dance. .....
...from the Funk & Wagnals New International Dictionary on my desk.
It goes on and on for another 6 column inches discussing the household arts,
the liberal arts, the industrial arts. My point is....the most narrow
definition of ART has been laid out as the only true gospel, and that no other
application is permissible.
Combatants of only one art discipline are appearing to be shallow in their
gestalt.
DAS NorCal
designers pretend that they understand all of this stuff, and that it actually
has relevancy to dot-to-dot drill writing. THEY are the ones who are saying
it's necessary. It's a sham.<
AH! The all encompassing "THEY".......
(Every major human conflict has been the direct result of one group of
humanoids defining another group of humanoids as "THEY".)
About time for some "WE" (if we are ever going to evolve into a higher
life-form......
- DAS in SC
DAS NorCal
Along that same line - Stravinsky (oh he of obviously questionable credentials)
defined MUSIC as:
"Sounds organized through time"
Also interesting to see that we are moving toward a definition of art as that
which is affected by human intervention with some sort of aesthetic intent (and
thus being different than that which occurs in "nature").
Observation: If this is the case - why does so much "art" involve attempts to
copy or replicate that which naturally occurs? Could it be possible that there
is an "ultimate artist". The ultimate trend setter? An entity such as
Voltaire's "prime mover"?
[Note to self - Voltaire might be a weak example. After all - he did author
"Candide" (in the original French - which was later translated to various form
of English - which resulted in Bernstien writing, and later re-writing an opera
using the story as it's basis - which then lead to Dick Cavett using it on his
TV show - and somehow led to GR arranging it for Santa Clara - and then somehow
it ended up in New Jersey, where the Cadets played more than just the Overture
(though SCV did later play "Make Your Gardens Grow") - which is Drum Corps -
which is why most people are on RAMD.....]
Good Morning Everyone!
How Do You Feel?
- DAS in SC
Eric Miller
of a rehearsal. Also in my HS, we couldn't get into minor scales because there
were students wo had no previous musical experience. And the piano proficiency
exam?? How many bands have time to work on their band music, teach new students,
and oh yeah, you gotta ALL learn how to play the piano too. When I graduated HS I
knew what the keys were on a keyboard, that's it, I am well ahead of some college
juniors (I am a freshman) in the piano proficiency class. I'm sorry, but you are
groosly underestimating the amount that can be done with a HS band having only one
(or two) class periods alloted to them. Remember, it's only HS. College is
TOTALLY different.
fast...@fastlane.net
Why does everyone come to the invalid conclusion that competition and
education are two seperate things? Competition IS education. Yeah ,
it can be taken to an extreme, but even then you learn how to handle
it next time, or better than the person who pushed it that far. The
problem here is that show design has stretched outside the idiom and
pushing it to become something it isn't. Call it "field music
theatre" or whatever you want, but don't try to pass it off as MB or
DC. At least Star of Indiana calls it by truth.
-Jody Thigpen
fast...@fastlane.net
Brian Tingley
Yeah, but Michael... you're just in it for the big bucks they're paying you.
Sarcasm switch OFF
Brian
MelloDad
mold...@gac.edu wrote:
> In article <1998111809...@law-f99.hotmail.com>,
> real...@hotmail.com ("Real Competition") wrote:
>
> > 4) Ask the band director for the judges and staffs art credentials.
> > Call the judges circuit and ask them too.
>
> Uh oh, I'm in trouble here. I've been teaching marching at my old high
> school for four years now, I even have revised a few drill charts here and
> there, and I don't have any art credentials. I can't draw very well, don't
> know about shading or tinting, and I'm certainly not an officer of an
> architectural design company.
>
> Of course, I've not yet figured out how being an architect is any sort of
> qualification to write drill for bands or drumcorps. I don't even know why
> drill writers need to know about shading, tinting, or any of that other art
> stuff (they don't). I guess I'm not much of a design genius.
>
> Michael Oldemeyer
> Phantom Regiment 94,6,8.
> euphonium
>
mold...@gac.edu
James Christian <james_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> mold...@gac.edu wrote:
>
> > In article <1998111809...@law-f99.hotmail.com>,
> > real...@hotmail.com ("Real Competition") wrote:
> >
> > > Call the judges circuit and ask them too.
> >
> > school for four years now, I even have revised a few drill charts here and
> > there, and I don't have any art credentials. I can't draw very well, don't
> > know about shading or tinting, and I'm certainly not an officer of an
> > architectural design company.
>
> educators have credentials. Real artists know something about art, and they
> can competently draw, paint, etc. If someone is going to use these fake
> titles, they'd better be ready to fess up.
So what it comes down to is that the Real Competition Committee is pissed
off because some people that the RCC doesn't think are artists have called
themselves artists. The drill writers are making something out of nothing,
with aesthetic intent...sounds like art to me. Why limit art to your strict
definition of it?
The drill writers' credentials are the drills that they've written, which
can be judged to be good or bad by a person who understands the medium.
And that drill writer doesn't even need to know how to draw, shade, or tint
by your own admission.
Writing drill is different than other visual arts. You wouldn't ask a painter
to sculpt something to prove that s/he is an artist. Why do you ask drill
writers to do something that is not required of their art, just to prove that
they are artists?
> > Of course, I've not yet figured out how being an architect is any sort of
> > qualification to write drill for bands or drumcorps. I don't even know why
> > drill writers need to know about shading, tinting, or any of that other art
> > stuff (they don't). I guess I'm not much of a design genius.
>
> It *isn't* neccessary. That's the whole point! Many circuits, judges, and
> designers pretend that they understand all of this stuff, and that it actually
> has relevancy to dot-to-dot drill writing. THEY are the ones who are saying
> it's necessary. It's a sham.
I know what it says on all the drumcorps visual sheets, I've read them all.
And I've listened to alot of tapes. There's only one guy out there who
actually uses the jargon while judging, George Olivieros (sp?) and even he
won't give a corps credit without execution. Listening to one of his tapes
is truly a foreign experience. Our own visual staff didn't even really know
how to interpret it.
The rest of the judges, despite what the sheets say, are talking about
performance. Even the ensemble and GE judges. I know this because this past
summer our visual staff was told near the end of the season that the design
was there, but it was performance holding us back.
The RCC can talk all they want about what is on the sheets, but what is all
still comes down to is performance. At this point Ken Mazur would pull out
his favorite Greg Cesario quote that says something about kids not being
able to win without design; it's not really true. Most of the winning corps
have had good design, but what pushed them over the top was their performance.
mold...@gac.edu
Brian Tingley <tin...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>
> mold...@gac.edu wrote:
>
> > In article <1998111809...@law-f99.hotmail.com>,
> > real...@hotmail.com ("Real Competition") wrote:
> >
> > > 4) Ask the band director for the judges and staffs art credentials.
> > > Call the judges circuit and ask them too.
> >
> > Uh oh, I'm in trouble here. I've been teaching marching at my old high
> > school for four years now, I even have revised a few drill charts here and
> > there, and I don't have any art credentials. I can't draw very well, don't
> > know about shading or tinting, and I'm certainly not an officer of an
> > architectural design company.
> >
> > qualification to write drill for bands or drumcorps. I don't even know why
> > drill writers need to know about shading, tinting, or any of that other art
> > stuff (they don't). I guess I'm not much of a design genius.
>
>
> Yeah, but Michael... you're just in it for the big bucks they're paying you.
>
> Sarcasm switch OFF
> Brian
> MelloDad
Now you're on to my scam. That's why I joined Regiment, so I could go back
to my old high school and charge lots of money for my marching instruction.
James Christian
> Here's the really big problem with all of these threads about ART.
>
> It is assumed that art can only exist as a graphic physical medium. There is no
> allowance for movement art, performance art, audio art, or art of any other
> plateau than those of drawing and architecture.
I think that you're misinterpretting what was said. The mainstream visual design
rule books are filled with talk of painting, sculpting, cubism, shading, 3D, etc.
NONE of this stuff is relatable to marching, and it is ridiculous that they are
trying to fool everyone into thinking that it is.
<snipped definition of art>
Yes, there are many forms of art, but you don't pretend that one is something that
it's not. You wouldn't expect a sculptor to talk about how to interpret music
while sculpting. Why should the reverse happen?
Rudimentally yours,
James Christian
James Christian
> > But you don't claim to be an educator in design or an artist, do you? Real
> > educators have credentials. Real artists know something about art, and they
> > can competently draw, paint, etc. If someone is going to use these fake
> > titles, they'd better be ready to fess up.
>
> So what it comes down to is that the Real Competition Committee is pissed
> off because some people that the RCC doesn't think are artists have called
> themselves artists. The drill writers are making something out of nothing,
> with aesthetic intent...sounds like art to me. Why limit art to your strict
> definition of it?
THEY are bringing in the elements of painting, sculpting, etc. when they really know
nothing about them. If they will stay within the realms of judging a youth marching
contest, placing the points on the performers, that's fine. But if the kids
continue to be used and manipulated, the sheets need to ridded of the design
emphasis.
> The drill writers' credentials are the drills that they've written, which
> can be judged to be good or bad by a person who understands the medium.
> And that drill writer doesn't even need to know how to draw, shade, or tint
> by your own admission.
That's right they don't. They shouldn't be judged as if they do though.
> Writing drill is different than other visual arts. You wouldn't ask a painter
> to sculpt something to prove that s/he is an artist. Why do you ask drill
> writers to do something that is not required of their art, just to prove that
> they are artists?
Because their rule books are FILLED with it. They discuss painting, sculpting (in
*marching*?), dance, etc. If you're going to talk the talk, you'd better be able to
walk the walk. If they can't, they should be exposed for the fakes they are.
> > > Of course, I've not yet figured out how being an architect is any sort of
> > > qualification to write drill for bands or drumcorps. I don't even know why
> > > drill writers need to know about shading, tinting, or any of that other art
> > > stuff (they don't). I guess I'm not much of a design genius.
> >
> > It *isn't* neccessary. That's the whole point! Many circuits, judges, and
> > designers pretend that they understand all of this stuff, and that it actually
> > has relevancy to dot-to-dot drill writing. THEY are the ones who are saying
> > it's necessary. It's a sham.
>
> I know what it says on all the drumcorps visual sheets, I've read them all.
> And I've listened to alot of tapes. There's only one guy out there who
> actually uses the jargon while judging, George Olivieros (sp?) and even he
> won't give a corps credit without execution. Listening to one of his tapes
> is truly a foreign experience. Our own visual staff didn't even really know
> how to interpret it.
> The rest of the judges, despite what the sheets say, are talking about
> performance. Even the ensemble and GE judges. I know this because this past
> summer our visual staff was told near the end of the season that the design
> was there, but it was performance holding us back.
I beg to differ. The senior corps I marched with this past summer asked for
comments from the judges at one show. One of the visual design judges (I forget his
name, but it wasn't Olivieros) kept making comments about how our drill forms looked
"too intense." They talked about how the design didn't correlate with the music.
(How can you *judge* that? There's no criteria.) I would bet that over half of the
comments were related to the design, and not the execution. They should judge how
demanding your drill is and how well you march. Period.
> The RCC can talk all they want about what is on the sheets, but what is all
> still comes down to is performance. At this point Ken Mazur would pull out
> his favorite Greg Cesario quote that says something about kids not being
> able to win without design; it's not really true. Most of the winning corps
> have had good design, but what pushed them over the top was their performance.
"What pushed them over the top", not what actually won it for them. If a corps
marches flawlessly, but doesn't have a drill that "interprets" the music, do you
think they would win? I'm sorry, but there IS way too much emphasis on how artistic
the drill is.
Rudimentally yours,
James Christian
Jeff Mitchell
James Christian wrote:
>
>
> Because their rule books are FILLED with it. They discuss painting, sculpting (in
> *marching*?), dance, etc. If you're going to talk the talk, you'd better be able to
> walk the walk. If they can't, they should be exposed for the fakes they are.
>
This is truly getting out of hand. Since you have signed off on this article attacking
only BOA as the band organization which employs this in the rules. Please show me in the
1998 BOA Official Procedures and Adjudication Handbook where it mentions painting,
sculpture, etc... Perhaps you have a different copy than mine. There is no mention of
any of this nonsense that you claim exists. You talk about exposing fakes? You want to
talk the talk and walk the walk? Here is your chance and those of your co-signors to
bring it all out into the open.
Jeff
JB GALAHAD
>Because their rule books are FILLED with it. They discuss painting,
>sculpting (in
>*marching*?), dance, etc.
I read the USSBA rule book cover to cover this year and NOWHERE does it talk
about show design. Oops, sorry, yes it does. It says you have a time limit of
15 minutes tiotal, so you'd better not design a 20 minute show. :-)
>One of the visual design judges (I forget his
>name, but it wasn't Olivieros) kept making comments about how our drill forms
>looked
>"too intense."
Maybe they were; they obviously were to HIM.
>They talked about how the design didn't correlate with the music.
>(How can you *judge* that? There's no criteria.)
You're telling me you can't determine if a particular move 'fits' the music or
not?
>I would bet that over half of the
>comments were related to the design, and not the execution.
First, a GE caption should focus on the performance as to how well it
commuinicates the music/drill ideas, not the pure execution.
>They should judge how
>demanding your drill is and how well you march. Period.
No way. That's not primarily the realm of GE, although clarity of form IS
important (the performance caption 'bleed').
They didn't judge like that back in the past that you seem to want to
resurrect.
>If a corps
>marches flawlessly, but doesn't have a drill that "interprets" the music, do
>you
>think they would win?
No. Not over one that has both.
Mike, MDA...@ETS.ORG
mold...@gac.edu
> > And I've listened to alot of tapes. There's only one guy out there who
> > actually uses the jargon while judging, George Olivieros (sp?) and even he
> > won't give a corps credit without execution. Listening to one of his tapes
> > is truly a foreign experience. Our own visual staff didn't even really know
> > how to interpret it.
>
> > The rest of the judges, despite what the sheets say, are talking about
> > performance. Even the ensemble and GE judges. I know this because this
> > past summer our visual staff was told near the end of the season that the
> > design was there, but it was performance holding us back.
>
> I beg to differ. The senior corps I marched with this past summer asked for
> forget his name, but it wasn't Olivieros) kept making comments about how our
> correlate with the music. (How can you *judge* that? There's no criteria.)
> the execution.
Well, then you and I have different experiences. What I have heard from
judges is performance based.
> They should judge how demanding your drill is and how well you march.
What? They should judge how demanding the drill is? That is judging
design, James. There are different ideas about what difficult drill is.
Making a judgement on how difficult a drill is subjective, unless you want
to use Stuart Rice's Planar Analysis. I, for one, don't understand it.
> > The RCC can talk all they want about what is on the sheets, but what is all
> > still comes down to is performance. At this point Ken Mazur would pull out
> > his favorite Greg Cesario quote that says something about kids not being
> > able to win without design; it's not really true. Most of the winning corps
> > have had good design, but what pushed them over the top was their
> > performance.
>
> "What pushed them over the top", not what actually won it for them. If a
> corps marches flawlessly, but doesn't have a drill that "interprets" the
> music, do you think they would win? I'm sorry, but there IS way too much
> emphasis on how artistic the drill is.
Pushed it over the top, actually won it for them...call it what you want.
A drill should have something to do with the music. Fast music calls for
fast drill, vice versa for slow music. Strong, aggressive music calls for
angular or block formations. Softer music calls for curvelinear forms.
That's basically what I look for in drill design of a show, along with a
couple ideas that I haven't seen before.
I don't think drill can really "interpret" the music, but what you see should
reasonably match what you hear.
Bill Haas
Stuart E. Rice wrote in message <36535B...@juno.com>...
>Firstly, what Ken is trying to say is that the quality of individual
>performance no longer matters as much as it used to. Quality is being
>measured at such a great distance (example: many more judges in the
>press box than when DCI was formed) that judges have developed a sort of
>myopia. Drum corps are being rewarded more for the end result than the
>means. "Concept" has indeed overrun the values and essense of the
>activity and its craft.
A statement and reiteration I agree with in its entirety.
>It is wrong, however, to therefrom jump to the conclusion that
>"designers," or choreographers of marching, don't deserve every penny
>they make. Marching choreography is what makes shows worth marching.
>The trick lies in making sure that choreography has made marching
>*possible*, and not just that instructors have succeeded in whipping
>lines into shape well enough for formations to hang together from the
>view of the press box. This is not the choreographers fault (although
>they should make a much greater effort to insure quality execution -
>they tend to look with their imagination, and are easily satified
>thereby).
> if we want a creative activity, we'd better hire an artist to
>provide the blueprint, and pay them well enough to encourage their
>development. if we want to empower participants with greater
>performance responsibilities, then we have to teach them the craft of
>marching, and judge them by their efforts. This implies that we
>actually study it ourselves, which in most respects we have yet to do.
>We know nothing of biomechanics, physiology, perception, or psychology.
Who cares about biomechanics, physiology and the rest of this psychobabble,
the kids want to perform and judging should be weighted to the excellence of
execution, not the degree of difficulty. People want to see winners and
watch their kids perform well, not reward the eccentricities of a designers
whims.
>I have serious reservations about the validity of this term "Outcome
>Based Education" term Ken is using, insofar as this is the first time
>I've even seen him capitalize it, and insofar as it bears little
>resemblance to the more common term for this ideology in music education
>- performance based music education (as opposed to discipline based).
>Performance is the common agenda and approach to music education today -
>the common measure of a "successful" program. Emphasis is placed not so
>much on learning but on performing (rather than "outcome).
Performing and the outcome are inherently intertwined as long as the
activity is judged.
>The term "artist," however, is not such a big deal - particularly when
>the identity of the art remains so ambiguous. I can't speak for
>ancillarists with authority, but more appropriate than the now outdated
>term "drill writers" (though useful at times) is choreographers of
>marching. It is in fact fair to say that choreographed marching is
>approaching the status of a performing art. Regardless of how prepared
>we are to recognize this, it is not such a great stretch for
>choreographers of marching to refer to themselves as artists. Any
>aspiring artists has a certain amount of license to do so, even though
>they, like many "musicians," may have yet to "arrive".
Choreographers of marching. Now there is a catch phrase. It is either one
or the other Stuart. Marching is a precision of form marked by common
movement individually and/or in groups. Choreography is the interpretation
of the music visually, not necessarily with any like form or performance.
In my mind it either is marching OR performance choreography. This goes to
the heart of the matter when Michael Cesario says :
"The creators are once again the people who determine what will be >judged
and how it will be judged."
With performance choreography judges have the same responsibility of the
Broadway critic- to critique a work of performance art based upon no defined
criteria, just their own personal feelings.
>Those statements, of course, are not contradictory. He doesn't suggest
>that he want's to see these groups slug it out. We must not jump to
>conclusions. Hopkins' Cadets of Bergen County, it should be remembered,
>are known for having a taste for non-competitive, Brass Theater-Style
>drum corps.
GH is probably the most competitive person in the activity today, regardless
of his YEA! statements. The Brass Theater Style performance analogy is
entirely a fallacy.
> The sad truth is, choreographers and instructors of marching are
>not educated correctly and thoroughly enough to justify their claim to
>the art. As a result, the drills themselves usually determine the
>winners in the end, if for no other reason than the fact that better
>drill inspires better efforts from staff and performers.
BINGO we have a winner. "As a result, the drills themselves usually
determine the
winners in the end" is the major problem with the idiom today, we have gone
from the drill reinforcing the music to the music reinforcing the drill.
THAT is the problem. This should be symbiotic art where all pieces fit to
create one program with no individual part a higher criteria than another in
judging OR performance.
Bill Haas
Who still has 3 Stuart Rice demerits in his portfolio
mold...@gac.edu
Jeff Mitchell <JEFFMI...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> James Christian wrote:
> >
> > Because their rule books are FILLED with it. They discuss painting,
> > you'd better be able to walk the walk. If they can't, they should be
> > exposed for the fakes they are.
> >
>
> This is truly getting out of hand. Since you have signed off on this article
> attacking only BOA as the band organization which employs this in the rules.
> Please show me in the 1998 BOA Official Procedures and Adjudication Handbook
> where it mentions painting, sculpture, etc... Perhaps you have a different
> copy than mine. There is no mention of any of this nonsense that you claim
> exists. You talk about exposing fakes? You want to talk the talk and walk the
> walk? Here is your chance and those of your co-signors to bring it all out
> into the open.
Hmm...I just assumed that the people posting as Real Competition knew what
they were talking about when they claimed that the rule books mentioned
painting, sculpting, and the rest. I guess I'm not surprised at all that
the actual books don't even mention those things. It certainly makes for a
rather less convincing argument.
Jeff Mitchell
mold...@gac.edu wrote:
> In article <36564CD4...@prodigy.net>,
> Jeff Mitchell <JEFFMI...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> >
> > James Christian wrote:
> > >
> > > Because their rule books are FILLED with it. They discuss painting,
> > > sculpting (in *marching*?), dance, etc. If you're going to talk the talk,
> > > you'd better be able to walk the walk. If they can't, they should be
> > > exposed for the fakes they are.
> > >
> >
> > This is truly getting out of hand. Since you have signed off on this article
> > attacking only BOA as the band organization which employs this in the rules.
> > Please show me in the 1998 BOA Official Procedures and Adjudication Handbook
> > where it mentions painting, sculpture, etc... Perhaps you have a different
> > copy than mine. There is no mention of any of this nonsense that you claim
> > exists. You talk about exposing fakes? You want to talk the talk and walk the
> > walk? Here is your chance and those of your co-signors to bring it all out
> > into the open.
>
> Hmm...I just assumed that the people posting as Real Competition knew what
> they were talking about when they claimed that the rule books mentioned
> painting, sculpting, and the rest. I guess I'm not surprised at all that
> the actual books don't even mention those things. It certainly makes for a
> rather less convincing argument.
Michael,
The BIG LIE technique is being employed here. If something is repeated often
enough, it is assumed to be true. Here is a link for everyone to check out the
Bands of America rules;
http://www.bands.org/info/library/judge/judge1.html
See if you find it filled with mentions of props, painting, sculpture, and other
stated "art". There are none. They do mention marching, music, and show design, as
they should, with an emphasis on the performers. I trust the Real Competition
Committee has never read the BOA rules, they simply organize the world to fit their
view of reality. The article you read is simply nonsense as it relates to BOA and
USSBA, and all other band circuits that I've worked with.
Jeff,
James Christian
> This is truly getting out of hand. Since you have signed off on this article attacking
> only BOA as the band organization which employs this in the rules. Please show me in the
> 1998 BOA Official Procedures and Adjudication Handbook where it mentions painting,
> sculpture, etc... Perhaps you have a different copy than mine. There is no mention of
> any of this nonsense that you claim exists. You talk about exposing fakes? You want to
> talk the talk and walk the walk? Here is your chance and those of your co-signors to
> bring it all out into the open.
The article referred to BOA, USSBA, DCI, & WGI. It also didn't say that these were the only
organizations that have a heavy design influence. DCI & WGI *do* mention these things.
I've also heard plenty of band judges' tapes which refer to all of these design concepts,
which are totally unrelated to marching.
James Christian
James Christian
> > They should judge how demanding your drill is and how well you march.
>
> What? They should judge how demanding the drill is? That is judging
> design, James.
Yes, but it is also dependent upon if the performers can do it or not. A group that
does simple moves an entire show shouldn't receive as high of a score as one that
does difficult drill (assuming execution is the same).
> > "What pushed them over the top", not what actually won it for them. If a
> > corps marches flawlessly, but doesn't have a drill that "interprets" the
> > music, do you think they would win? I'm sorry, but there IS way too much
> > emphasis on how artistic the drill is.
>
> Pushed it over the top, actually won it for them...call it what you want.
> A drill should have something to do with the music.
I agree. Good drill writing WILL "fit the music."
> I don't think drill can really "interpret" the music, but what you see should
> reasonably match what you hear.
I agree, but there shouldn't be points taken away from the performers if they are
still doing a good job.
James Christian
James Christian
> >I would bet that over half of the
> >comments were related to the design, and not the execution.
>
> First, a GE caption should focus on the performance as to how well it
> commuinicates the music/drill ideas, not the pure execution.
>
> >They should judge how
> >demanding your drill is and how well you march. Period.
>
> No way. That's not primarily the realm of GE, although clarity of form IS
> important (the performance caption 'bleed').
It wasn't a GE caption.
James Christian
mik...@my-dejanews.com
I have read the USSBA rule book cover to cover, and the only design comment
in the book is that the band has a total of 15 minutes to enter, perform, and
leave the field.
Hardly a 'heavy design influence'.
And, NONE of the performaance judges we saw on visual captions all year went
on about design elements; they focussed on the performance of the students,
as called for by the sheets.
Mike
Mike
mik...@my-dejanews.com
James Christian <james_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> THEY are bringing in the elements of painting, sculpting, etc. when they
really know
> nothing about them.
You are being suckered, James. I've judged a lot of band shows, and have been
judged with the bands I've taught, and these way-out design ideas are NOT the
norm of how we've been judged, i any of the circuits I've been involved with.
>If they will stay within the realms of judging a youth
marching
> contest, placing the points on the performers, that's fine.
That's where the VAST majority of the points ARE, James.
> But if the kids
> continue to be used and manipulated, the sheets need to ridded of the design
> emphasis.
>
Drills have TO match the musical ideas, so design plays SOME sort of role. In
all of the band circuits I've seen over the past 20 years, design is by FAR
the fewest number of points. Performance is the key, even in the Effect
areas.
>
> Because their rule books are FILLED with it. They discuss painting, sculpting
(in
> *marching*?), dance, etc.
Not USSBA's.
>
> One of the visual design judges (I
forget his
> name, but it wasn't Olivieros) kept making comments about how our drill forms
looked
> "too intense." They talked about how the design didn't correlate with the
music.
A perfectly valid comment, if true.
> (How can you *judge* that? There's no criteria.)
That's what training is for; to train the judge in what to look for.
> They should judge how
> demanding your drill is and how well you march. Period.
>
Ridiculous.
>
> "What pushed them over the top", not what actually won it for them. If a
corps
> marches flawlessly, but doesn't have a drill that "interprets" the music, do
you
> think they would win?
Not if someone has both.
James Christian
> In article <3658EFBF...@hotmail.com>,
> James Christian <james_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > The article referred to BOA, USSBA, DCI, & WGI.
>
> I have read the USSBA rule book cover to cover, and the only design comment
> in the book is that the band has a total of 15 minutes to enter, perform, and
> leave the field.
>
> Hardly a 'heavy design influence'.
>
> And, NONE of the performaance judges we saw on visual captions all year went
> on about design elements; they focussed on the performance of the students,
> as called for by the sheets.
That's great. I AM truly glad to hear that. If you'll note, though, I didn't
say that USSBA was guilty of the design influence. I just said that it was
mentioned in the article (mostly in reference to George Hopkins
anti-individualism philosophies).
James
James Christian
> In article <3655F986...@hotmail.com>,
> James Christian <james_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > THEY are bringing in the elements of painting, sculpting, etc. when they
> > really know nothing about them.
>
> You are being suckered, James. I've judged a lot of band shows, and have been
> judged with the bands I've taught, and these way-out design ideas are NOT the
> norm of how we've been judged, i any of the circuits I've been involved with.
I'm glad to hear that. Unfortunately, that hasn't been my experience.
> >If they will stay within the realms of judging a youth marching
> > contest, placing the points on the performers, that's fine.
>
> That's where the VAST majority of the points ARE, James.
Not in a lot of circuits. Or it may be 60% performers, 40% designers, which is WAY
too much emphasis given for the design.
> > Because their rule books are FILLED with it. They discuss painting, sculpting
> > (in *marching*?), dance, etc.
>
> Not USSBA's.
I didn't say it was, but it is in some circuits (not just band).
> > One of the visual design judges (I forget his
> > name, but it wasn't Olivieros) kept making comments about how our drill forms
> > looked "too intense." They talked about how the design didn't correlate with
> the
> > music.
>
> A perfectly valid comment, if true.
We, the performers, had no control over that. We marched the drill that we were
given. Why should we, the performers, be penalized for that? Comments like that go
beyond the performance at hand. (Truthfully, the crowd went nuts over the show, so
we weren't too worried about the comments.)
> > (How can you *judge* that? There's no criteria.)
>
> That's what training is for; to train the judge in what to look for.
>
> > They should judge how
> > demanding your drill is and how well you march. Period.
>
> Ridiculous.
Why? The performers have no control over the design.
> > "What pushed them over the top", not what actually won it for them. If a
> > corps marches flawlessly, but doesn't have a drill that "interprets" the music,
> do
> > you think they would win?
>
> Not if someone has both.
If someone has equally demanding and equally executed drill, they should have the
same score. Why penalize the performers for things they have no control over?
James
Kristian Mark Twombly
: Why? The performers have no control over the design.
Yes, they do. THEY choose whether or not to perform it, NOT the designer.
It seems pretty obvious that no matter what any one of us (or many of us)
says, these guys (the original posters) aren't listening to what we are
saying. The flaw in their logic cames at a very deep and fundamental
level, and it is not allowing them to even comprehend our points. Even
though this post goes against my own advice, I am no longer interested in
responding to them and maybe if we all leave them alone they will fade
away.
Kristian
mik...@my-dejanews.com
> > James Christian <james_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > The article referred to BOA, USSBA, DCI, & WGI.
> >
> > I have read the USSBA rule book cover to cover, and the only design comment
> > in the book is that the band has a total of 15 minutes to enter, perform,
and
> > leave the field.
> >
> > Hardly a 'heavy design influence'.
> >
> > And, NONE of the performaance judges we saw on visual captions all year went
> > on about design elements; they focussed on the performance of the students,
> > as called for by the sheets.
>
> That's great. I AM truly glad to hear that. If you'll note, though, I didn't
> say that USSBA was guilty of the design influence. I just said that it was
> mentioned in the article (mostly in reference to George Hopkins
> anti-individualism philosophies).
>
Well, if I find that one element of the diatribe that I am aware of is totally
incorrect, than I quite properly question the validity of the rest.
mik...@my-dejanews.com
been
> > judged with the bands I've taught, and these way-out design ideas are NOT
the
> > norm of how we've been judged, i any of the circuits I've been involved
with.
>
> I'm glad to hear that. Unfortunately, that hasn't been my experience.
>
Well, I've been doing competitive marching/music since 1968, and haven't
experienced what you say. How broad is your experience?
> > >If they will stay within the realms of judging a youth marching
> > > contest, placing the points on the performers, that's fine.
> >
> > That's where the VAST majority of the points ARE, James.
>
> Not in a lot of circuits.
I've seen sheets from a variety of circuits, and they focus to a VERY large
extent on the performance.
> Or it may be 60% performers, 40% designers, which
is WAY too much emphasis given for the design.
>
I've never seen 40 points for 'design'. USSBA, for example, has 40 points for
GE (20 music/20 visual), but very little is geared to the design. It's geared
to how well the students perform their music/drill from a
communication/musicianship standpoint. It's not by design that King Philip
won our class 3 Open at USSBA; they marched and played at an extremely high
level of excellence. The second place band, Nazareth, also marched/played
extremely well, and we were close behind (and ahead on 2 music sheets) coming
in third. All of us performed totally different show designs extremely well.
And the placements were according to how well we all performed, and were
correct.
> >
> > Not USSBA's.
>
> I didn't say it was, but it is in some circuits (not just band).
>
Well, USSBA, a circuit I know about, is mentioned throughout. If they are
wrong there, they may be wrong elsewhere.
> > > One of the visual design judges (I forget his
> > > name, but it wasn't Olivieros) kept making comments about how our drill
forms
> > > looked "too intense." They talked about how the design didn't correlate
with
> > the
> > > music.
> >
> > A perfectly valid comment, if true.
>
> We, the performers, had no control over that.
OK.
> We marched the drill that we were given. Why should we, the performers, be
penalized for that?
Because another group had all of the elements in line. Like it or not, what
the staff decides to put on the field, music and drill-wise, makes a
difference. Otherwise, just go out in a box and march it around the field,
playing scales for 10 minutes.
> Comments like that go beyond the performance at hand. (Truthfully, the crowd
went nuts over the show, so we weren't too worried about the comments.)
>
Good for you. It's the performance that counts, not the score.
> > > They should judge how
> > > demanding your drill is and how well you march. Period.
> >
> > Ridiculous.
>
> Why? The performers have no control over the design.
>
You as a corps are the sum total of the performance and the show. If both are
not of a high level, you will suffer. That's how it has ALWAYS been.
>
> If someone has equally demanding and equally executed drill, they should have
the
> same score. Why penalize the performers for things they have no control over?
>
Because it's a competition, to quote someone who shall remain nameless. :-)
Those who provide the best performance of the best show will win most of the
time.
James Christian
> : Why? The performers have no control over the design.
>
> Yes, they do. THEY choose whether or not to perform it, NOT the designer.
The performers don't design the shows, so why should the design be judged?
This is a youth contest. Why should the designers get any points?
> It seems pretty obvious that no matter what any one of us (or many of us)
> says, these guys (the original posters) aren't listening to what we are
> saying. The flaw in their logic cames at a very deep and fundamental
> level, and it is not allowing them to even comprehend our points. Even
> though this post goes against my own advice, I am no longer interested in
> responding to them and maybe if we all leave them alone they will fade
> away.
Not a very good philosophy.
James Christian
James Christian
> > > You are being suckered, James. I've judged a lot of band shows, and have
> > > been
> > > judged with the bands I've taught, and these way-out design ideas are NOT
> > > the norm of how we've been judged, i any of the circuits I've been involved
> > > with.
> >
> > I'm glad to hear that. Unfortunately, that hasn't been my experience.
>
> Well, I've been doing competitive marching/music since 1968, and haven't
> experienced what you say. How broad is your experience?
I somehow doubt that this problem existed in 1968. It seems that it has only been
around since the late 80's or so (at least in marching band).
As far as my experience in marching band, I have gone to local marching band
contests since 1993. I've marched in one for four years. I have heard from many
other students and parents around the country that they are tired of the heavy
design influence. You wouldn't believe all of the comments I hear from the
audiences at shows I go to.
You may not be experiencing this scenario in your area, but if you don't think it's
happening around the country, you're blinding yourself to reality.
> > > >If they will stay within the realms of judging a youth marching
> > > > contest, placing the points on the performers, that's fine.
> > >
> > > That's where the VAST majority of the points ARE, James.
> >
> > Not in a lot of circuits.
>
> I've seen sheets from a variety of circuits, and they focus to a VERY large
> extent on the performance.
> > Or it may be 60% performers, 40% designers, which
> > is WAY too much emphasis given for the design.
>
> I've never seen 40 points for 'design'. USSBA, for example, has 40 points for
> GE (20 music/20 visual), but very little is geared to the design. It's geared
> to how well the students perform their music/drill from a
> communication/musicianship standpoint. It's not by design that King Philip
> won our class 3 Open at USSBA; they marched and played at an extremely high
> level of excellence. The second place band, Nazareth, also marched/played
> extremely well, and we were close behind (and ahead on 2 music sheets) coming
> in third. All of us performed totally different show designs extremely well.
> And the placements were according to how well we all performed, and were
> correct.
Not having seen any of the above mentioned shows, I can't comment.
> > > Not USSBA's.
> >
> > I didn't say it was, but it is in some circuits (not just band).
>
> Well, USSBA, a circuit I know about, is mentioned throughout. If they are
> wrong there, they may be wrong elsewhere.
You're mixing the words around. USSBA is mentioned exactly once, and it says to ask
for the rules. George Hopkins is mentioned several times, letting it be known of
his anti-competitive mentality.
> > Comments like that go beyond the performance at hand. (Truthfully, the crowd
> > went nuts over the show, so we weren't too worried about the comments.)
>
> Good for you. It's the performance that counts, not the score.
Definately.
> > If someone has equally demanding and equally executed drill, they should have
> >the same score. Why penalize the performers for things they have no control
> over?
>
> Because it's a competition, to quote someone who shall remain nameless. :-)
Yes, but it's not a competition for the adult designers. It's a competion for the
PERFORMERS. The performers didn't design the show.
Rudimentally yours,
James Christian
mik...@my-dejanews.com
James Christian <james_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> As far as my experience in marching band, I have gone to local marching band
> contests since 1993. I've marched in one for four years. I have heard from
many
> other students and parents around the country that they are tired of the heavy
> design influence. You wouldn't believe all of the comments I hear from the
> audiences at shows I go to.
>
I've never heard it ONCE, from shows I've been to as an instructor or judge,
from Ohio to Mass to NJ. And I'm talking around 200 shows or more, with an
average of 10 bands or so per show.
> You may not be experiencing this scenario in your area, but if you don't think
it's
> happening around the country, you're blinding yourself to reality.
>
No, I don't think so. I've seen bands form all over, and there are bands from
other circuits in USSBA; none seem to have the 'problem' you speak of.
> >
> > Because it's a competition, to quote someone who shall remain nameless. :-)
>
> Yes, but it's not a competition for the adult designers. It's a competion for
the
> PERFORMERS. The performers didn't design the show.
>
Right, and most of the points are FOR the performance of the show, from the
'execution' to the 'effect' of the performance. Very little is allocated to
the written show.
James Christian
> In article <3660709C...@hotmail.com>,
> James Christian <james_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > As far as my experience in marching band, I have gone to local marching band
> > contests since 1993. I've marched in one for four years. I have heard from
> > many
> > other students and parents around the country that they are tired of the heavy
> > design influence. You wouldn't believe all of the comments I hear from the
> > audiences at shows I go to.
>
> I've never heard it ONCE, from shows I've been to as an instructor or judge,
> from Ohio to Mass to NJ. And I'm talking around 200 shows or more, with an
> average of 10 bands or so per show.
I heard comments at least 15 times this past season.
A few that come to mind:
*When one drum line came out with all of these props, one lady near me said, "I
thought we were here to watch a DRUM LINE show."
*Some people sitting to my back on the right side saw the same drum line with all of
these props, and I heard comments like, "Look at all of this" (with a negative
tone), "This is ridiculous!", "This is way too much."
*At another show, a group came out with all of these props, and one man and his son
where nearby. The father said, "I thought this was a drum line show. This is just
too much. This is more like watching a play."
*I also had replied to an e-mail I got after my PAS reviews from a HS student in a
local drum line. After my exhibition on the evening of Texas PAS, a lady approached
me saying, "James! James!" I was surprised to hear my name and I turned around.
She said, "I read your e-mail. I want you to know that I agree with you 100
percent. I wish that WE could get rid of the props in our show. I wish it was just
plain drums."
People ARE tired of it. Many parents are tired of carrying props, and they're tired
of watching their kids (and other's kids) manipulated into some visual designer's
"dream". People ARE entertained by great displays of rudimental drumming. When
done well, it is truly awe-inspiring. Field music is a unique idiom. It is the
only place where you can find rudimental excellence. Unfortunately, there are so
few out there that still try to bring that to the crowds. The activity has lost
that which gained most of its original fans. It is no longer the battle of the
bands, but the battle of the props. It has badly copied elements of theater and
orchestral music, and it does little to entertain the average person. Lose the
props and teach the kids to play, and watch the activity thrive.
> > You may not be experiencing this scenario in your area, but if you don't think
> > it's happening around the country, you're blinding yourself to reality.
>
> No, I don't think so. I've seen bands form all over, and there are bands from
> other circuits in USSBA; none seem to have the 'problem' you speak of.
I can assure you it is happening in several areas. Michigan and Texas, to a lesser
extent, have these problems. I find it incredibly hard to believe that you have
never ran into it in New Jersey. If you haven't, please realize that you are very
lucky to be where you are, and I am very happy for your state and all of its
competitors.
James Christian
mik...@my-dejanews.com
James Christian <james_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> People ARE tired of it. Many parents are tired of carrying props, and they're
tired of watching their kids (and other's kids) manipulated into some visual
designer's "dream".
You are putting your own biased spin on things, James. We used some rather
modest props this year (painted screens), and it was some of our parents who
pushed for their use; they were ready and excited to start hammering and
sawing before we even had the show picked. Our drill writer wasn't even all
that supportive of using them, so in at least one case you have it exactly
backwards.
> People ARE entertained by great displays of rudimental drumming.
When done well, it is truly awe-inspiring.
Rudimental drummer are (and their parents, I'm sure). I'm not sure where you
would get the facts about 'people' in general to back up your statement.
> Field music is a unique idiom. It is
the only place where you can find rudimental excellence.
Tell that to pipe bands and fife and drum groups.
> The activity has lost that which gained most of its original fans. It is no
longer the battle of the bands, but the battle of the props.
What percentage of bands/corps use props? I would guess, from what I remember
(and I didn't count, so it's more of a guess than you might like) that less
than 1 in 4 of all the bands I've seen this year used props. And that is on
the high side.
> It has badly copied elements of theater and
> orchestral music, and it does little to entertain the average person.
Props ARE entertaining to the 'average person'. It's the judges who are not
all that affected by them.
> Lose the props and teach the kids to play, and watch the activity thrive.
>
You keep on this mantra about 'losing the props' to make the activity
'thrive', yet props are such a tiny part of the activity it's just plain
silly.
>
> I can assure you it is happening in several areas. Michigan and Texas, to a
lesser extent, have these problems. I find it incredibly hard to believe
that you have never ran into it in New Jersey. If you haven't, please
realize that you are very lucky to be where you are, and I am very happy for
your state and all of its competitors.
>
Since many of the judges judge all over, I doubt it's all that different. What
you see as a 'problem' is different from what I see as a 'problem' is more
likely the case.
James Christian
> > People ARE tired of it. Many parents are tired of carrying props, and they're
> > tired of watching their kids (and other's kids) manipulated into some visual
> > designer's "dream".
>
> You are putting your own biased spin on things, James. We used some rather
> modest props this year (painted screens), and it was some of our parents who
> pushed for their use; they were ready and excited to start hammering and
> sawing before we even had the show picked. Our drill writer wasn't even all
> that supportive of using them, so in at least one case you have it exactly
> backwards.
There ARE probably some on both sides. I CAN remember this past year hearing MANY
comments (about 15-20 times) about how ridiculous the massive props were. I heard
exactly 1 comment about how good a prop show was this year, and that was from a
mother whose child was in that particular group.
> > People ARE entertained by great displays of rudimental drumming.
> > When done well, it is truly awe-inspiring.
>
> Rudimental drummer are (and their parents, I'm sure). I'm not sure where you
> would get the facts about 'people' in general to back up your statement.
I think you've just inspired me to do a survey. I'll give you my results in about a
month or two.
> > Field music is a unique idiom. It is
> > the only place where you can find rudimental excellence.
>
> Tell that to pipe bands and fife and drum groups.
I was including them with the term "field music." They have not abandoned their
original roots. Unfortunately, they don't really "push the envelope", in the sense
that they don't come up with new difficult rudimental patterns or try to take it to
the next level. They have a set style of writing that never varies. Drum and bugle
corps was the only place where rudimental demand was increased every year.
Unfortunately that has been lost.
> > The activity has lost that which gained most of its original fans. It is no
> > longer the battle of the bands, but the battle of the props.
>
> What percentage of bands/corps use props? I would guess, from what I remember
> (and I didn't count, so it's more of a guess than you might like) that less
> than 1 in 4 of all the bands I've seen this year used props. And that is on
> the high side.
Same here, but with the most "competitive" bands & drum lines, they try to outdo
each other with props, and when it comes to actually playing, you can see which of
the two suffered as a result.
> > It has badly copied elements of theater and
> > orchestral music, and it does little to entertain the average person.
>
> Props ARE entertaining to the 'average person'. It's the judges who are not
> all that affected by them.
I honestly don't believe that the average person finds them more entertaining.
Again, I'll give you the results of my survey.
> > Lose the props and teach the kids to play, and watch the activity thrive.
>
> You keep on this mantra about 'losing the props' to make the activity
> 'thrive', yet props are such a tiny part of the activity it's just plain
> silly.
MANY shows are completely dependent upon props. How about '96 Carolina Crown, Blue
Devils, Cadets, or '97 Delta Brigade? All of these shows depended greatly props
and/or costumes. While props are not the biggest part of the activity, many shows
are completely consumed by them.
Rudimentally yours,
James Christian
JB GALAHAD
>Devils, Cadets, or '97 Delta Brigade? All of these shows depended greatly
>props
>and/or costumes. While props are not the biggest part of the activity, many
>shows
>are completely consumed by them.
How many used them this year? And how many props did the DCI champion use?
>Same here, but with the most "competitive" bands & drum lines, they try to
>outdo
>each other with props, and when it comes to actually playing, you can see
>which of
>the two suffered as a result.
Absolutely disagree, at least in the band arena, which I am more familiar with
over the years.
But, how many top-12 DC used them extensively this year?
>I honestly don't believe that the average person finds them more
>entertaining.
I'm referring more to the football-type audience than the hard-core band
audience. Mosest props such as we used this year and last year added just a
litle glitz to the show; we marched without them on occassion and did just
fine. It was more a parent-thing than a kid-thing. or staff-thing. Of course,
we had to integrate them into the show, but it was really at the behest of a
group of parents that we even used them at all. I just don't see the sinister
side you seem to see.
Mike
Ron Clark
How was that done? I am the dsigner that Mike was talking about. Yes,
I was not a supporter of the prop/screen presentation. With West
Windsor, it involved screen. The band was a Group III band, which means
not really small but not big enough to fill the field. Through my
input, I was able to cut the screen requirement down to three. This
still caused some design limitations. I did my best to involve the
function of those screen into the whole package.
But this is not what you, James, were referring to. West Windsor was an
example of a band (including the percussionists) who played
exceptionally well. This, more-so, is what you had in mind:
Usually with a band staff, there are those caption heads who are
supposed to see the big picture but only see their own area of
responsibility. And for the percussion feature, those people may feel
they have to contribute to that moment. That means there is a conflict
for the focus. As a result, the impact of the effect is minimized.
It would be more pragmatic and more asthetically correct if those
groups applied the principle of "Less is more." Then, the audience
would find it easier to appreciate the efforts of the percussion line or
the guard or the band proper or the entire unified effect.
What this all means is coodination of all elements.
RON
mik...@my-dejanews.com
Ron Clark <ronc...@nac.net> wrote:
> I can't believe you two, Mike and James, have sucked me into this.
>
Knew you couldn't resist! :-)
> How was that done? I am the dsigner that Mike was talking about. Yes,
> I was not a supporter of the prop/screen presentation. With West
> Windsor, it involved screen. The band was a Group III band, which means
> not really small but not big enough to fill the field. Through my
> input, I was able to cut the screen requirement down to three. This
> still caused some design limitations. I did my best to involve the
> function of those screen into the whole package.
>
And created a marvelous drill, by the way, as well as instilling the band
with a heightened sense of focus regarding marching performance throughout
the season.
>
> It would be more pragmatic and more asthetically correct if those
> groups applied the principle of "Less is more."
Absolutely agree here. I'm not a fan of overblown effects, just good ones.
James Christian
> But this is not what you, James, were referring to. West Windsor was an
> example of a band (including the percussionists) who played
> exceptionally well. This, more-so, is what you had in mind:
>
> Usually with a band staff, there are those caption heads who are
> supposed to see the big picture but only see their own area of
> responsibility. And for the percussion feature, those people may feel
> they have to contribute to that moment. That means there is a conflict
> for the focus. As a result, the impact of the effect is minimized.
I'm not sure what I ever said that was related to this, but I LOVE seeing
the drum features from the 70's and early 80's where the drums, guard, and
drill are all doing their most creative stuff. It was the visual highlight
as well as the percussion highlight. It ensures that there is always
something to watch. I don't feel that the drums take away from the guard or
the drill, and I don't feel that the drill and equipment work take away from
the drums. It was just a very entertaining package from every standpoint.
> It would be more pragmatic and more asthetically correct if those
> groups applied the principle of "Less is more." Then, the audience
> would find it easier to appreciate the efforts of the percussion line or
> the guard or the band proper or the entire unified effect.
I like the approach I've heard from several corps/bands/drum lines: "Pack
in as much as you can, so that you'll notice something new every time you
watch." Maybe that's just me.
Rudimentally yours,
James Christian
James Christian
> >How about '96 Carolina Crown, Blue
> >Devils, Cadets, or '97 Delta Brigade? All of these shows depended greatly
> >props and/or costumes. While props are not the biggest part of the activity,
> many
> >shows are completely consumed by them.
>
> How many used them this year?
I didn't see EVERY corps this year, so I can't say.
> And how many props did the DCI champion use?
None this year (at least when I saw them in Dallas). Not true for the DCI
champions in other recent years though. Did you notice how much more equipment
work there was this summer? The guards got MUCH more applause during these
moments than the times when they did interpretive dance or prop stuff (at least at
all of the shows I saw).
> >Same here, but with the most "competitive" bands & drum lines, they try to
> >outdo each other with props, and when it comes to actually playing, you can see
>
> >which of the two suffered as a result.
>
> Absolutely disagree, at least in the band arena, which I am more familiar with
> over the years.
>
> But, how many top-12 DC used them extensively this year?
THIS year, not many. And I applauded them for that in my reviews over the
summer. Again, in recent years there have been quite a few though. (Cadets '95,
Blue Devils '96, Cadets '96, Crown '96, Cavaliers '95, [that wire ball they
carried around in the guard], Delta Brigade '97 etc.)
Rudimentally yours,
James Christian
mik...@my-dejanews.com
James Christian <james_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> JB GALAHAD wrote:
>
> > >How about '96 Carolina Crown, Blue
> > >Devils, Cadets, or '97 Delta Brigade? All of these shows depended greatly
> > >props and/or costumes. While props are not the biggest part of the
activity,
> > many
> > >shows are completely consumed by them.
> >
> > How many used them this year?
>
> I didn't see EVERY corps this year, so I can't say.
>
The only DCI I saw THIS year was the video. In the past few years, I've seen
some shows that used mega-props, and some that used few. Personally, I prefer
fewer props, but I've also seen some shows with props I've liked.
> >
> > But, how many top-12 DC used them extensively this year?
>
> THIS year, not many. And I applauded them for that in my reviews over the
> summer. Again, in recent years there have been quite a few though. (Cadets
'95,
> Blue Devils '96, Cadets '96, Crown '96, Cavaliers '95, [that wire ball they
> carried around in the guard], Delta Brigade '97 etc.)
>
I did see CBC in 96, and they are one of the 'prop' shows that I liked.
In general, I prefer fewer props to more props, but that's just MY preference.
Ron Clark
I LOVE seeing
> the drum features from the 70's and early 80's where the drums, guard, and
> drill are all doing their most creative stuff. It was the visual highlight
> as well as the percussion highlight. It ensures that there is always
> something to watch. I don't feel that the drums take away from the guard or
> the drill, and I don't feel that the drill and equipment work take away from
> the drums. It was just a very entertaining package from every standpoint.
It can be but it is not always. It is determined by how much the staff
communicates and if captions heads accept a compromise of their position
of dominance for the sack of the over-all effect.
I have seen many times when the horn line evolution was irrelevant to
the statement made by the color guard who were in direct competition for
the focus the drum line might deserve at that moment.
On the other hand, some corps allow the focus to go to the tenor line
when they have a soli and also to the snares or the basses and don't
forget the cymbals in there are any. This is what I meant that less can
be more.
Maybe the performance sheets and possibly even the effect sheets require
more to be jammed into the same amount of space, but that just reflects
the inadequacy of the system.
RON
James Christian
> The only DCI I saw THIS year was the video.
That's too bad. Overall, there WERE some thoroughly entertaining shows this year,
especially in the div. 2 & 3 corps (that I saw, anyway).
> In general, I prefer fewer props to more props, but that's just MY preference.
I agree with you there. The Crossmen even had a person dressed as Superman in '80
& '79(?). I didn't care for it that much, but if you're going to use props, take a
lesson from them--only utilize the smallest number of people as possible, and just
use it as a final GE type of thing. Don't make the show dependent upon them.
Rudimentally yours,
James Christian
P.S. By using the word "you", I mean the generic "you", not you personally.
(Didn't want any confusions.)
James Christian
<snip of explanation>
Okay. I guess I misunderstood. I agree with you.
Rudimentally yours,
James Christian
mik...@my-dejanews.com
James Christian <james_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I agree with you there. The Crossmen even had a person dressed as Superman in
'80
> & '79(?). I didn't care for it that much,
Based on your age, I guess your take on them is from a tape.
I once judged a show in the late 70's (Garden State class 'B' show) where the
corps was playing "Land of Make Believe" (weren't they ALL back then!). They
dressed up some folks like Mighty Mouse, Little Boy Blue, Uncle Remus, and
Snow White to highlight the tune. Now, unless you knew the lyrics, you had NO
idea how those characters fit into the tune. Also, for Little Boy Blue and
Uncle Remus, unless you knew the lyrics, you had no idea that they WERE
supposed to be those folks.
I also judged a band show once where one of the bands did "Beauty and the
Beast", and had the guard run around the field reading books. The same thing
as above applied there as well. Unless you knew that Belle was an avid
reader, it made no sense at all.
Props gone astray!!!