how much drill can one writer handle
Victor
Since it seems like most of the traffic on this group comes from drill
writers and arrangers, I thought this would be a good place to ask.
How many shows do you folks do each year?
A couple of years ago I felt like I was at capacity with seven. Last
year I maxed out with fifteen but did a lot of instructing (which pays
way less than writing.) Right now I'm up to twenty-one, which is ten
ahead of this week last year.
The instruction I've done has been with in state high school bands, so
I've canceled my instate high school clients.
I am philosophically opposed to using drill from one band for another,
mostly because of the staging problems it can create for young woodwind
players. I'm funny that way. It also sometimes happens that drill is
used for completely different songs than what it was written for. That
irks me because stride size changes should reflect ebb and flow of the
music, and no two songs are exactly alike. I also have this gnawing,
deep seated suspicion that bands would be way better off if their
directors did all the arranging and drill writing themselves, or at
least had those people on full time staff. But of course there isn't
money for that. But there should be. And where is the rising
generation of drill writers. Are they being choked out of work by the
bigger fish?
Sorry for the meander, I'm ADD. The point is, I think kids and
directors deserve quality, and I'm certain that a lot of mass produced
shows don't offer it.
So, at what point do I say, "enough?" I think it's going to happen in
August. And then those directors will turn to the mass produced shows.
Craig Harms, cool guy that he is, farms out some of his work to young
writers for a cut of the take. But I'm not inclined to trust anyone
with my name.
So . . . what do you think?
Victor
http://drill.bandtek.com
Nikk Pilato
> How many shows do you folks do each year?
I've ranged from 8 to 2. I think that unless you want quality to suffer,
you are better off doing less than 10 a year. Of course, you can toss
that out the window if you don't have a job, and drill writing is your
main source of income.
> A couple of years ago I felt like I was at capacity with seven. Last
> year I maxed out with fifteen but did a lot of instructing (which pays
> way less than writing.) Right now I'm up to twenty-one, which is ten
> ahead of this week last year.
Wow...that sounds like an awful lot. Be careful! :-) I've seen too mnay
designs look very similar after a while.
> I am philosophically opposed to using drill from one band for another,
> mostly because of the staging problems it can create for young woodwind
> players. I'm funny that way. It also sometimes happens that drill is
> used for completely different songs than what it was written for. That
> irks me because stride size changes should reflect ebb and flow of the
> music, and no two songs are exactly alike. I also have this gnawing,
> deep seated suspicion that bands would be way better off if their
> directors did all the arranging and drill writing themselves, or at
> least had those people on full time staff.
I agree...that is why I do some of my school's music arrangements, and
write the drill.
> So, at what point do I say, "enough?" I think it's going to happen in
> August. And then those directors will turn to the mass produced shows.
Ugh.
> Craig Harms, cool guy that he is, farms out some of his work to young
> writers for a cut of the take. But I'm not inclined to trust anyone
> with my name.
Very wise.
Drill writing is an art form, despite Ken Mazur's protestations...as long
as you remain fresh and there is "spring in your step," things will look
up for the future of drill.
++
np
www.nikknakks.net
nikk@nikk#nospam#nakks.net
"This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper"
-T.S. Eliot
Jeff Gooch
Drill writing is an art form, despite Ken Mazur's protestations...as long
as you remain fresh and there is "spring in your step," things will look
up for the future of drill.
Actually, it is more a craft than an art form...by definition. Drill writers are highly knowledgable technicians that happen to have "vision" and are able to apply it.-GOOCH-
Victor
> Indeed you are powerful, Victor, as the Emperor has foreseen:
chuckle
> > How many shows do you folks do each year?
>
> I've ranged from 8 to 2. I think that unless you want quality to suffer,
> you are better off doing less than 10 a year. Of course, you can toss
> that out the window if you don't have a job, and drill writing is your
> main source of income.
I'm a band director. But I've got the writing pretty well spread out from
the first week in June until late October. And over the years the computers
have gotten faster and my analysis skills are a little quicker too.
I remember the first complete show I did all on my own with all the arcane
tools. It took me almost all summer.
Is anyone using Pyware Java yet? Is there a drill player version? I played
with a copy at a master class I was guest lecturing last year and it was
pretty cool. It was even faster, and even easier. And it promises to
animate with a CD and print in color. AND . . . the string works! (But
after ten years it should.) I upgraded my machine to run it, then learned it
wouldn't tilt, so I decided to wait.
> > A couple of years ago I felt like I was at capacity with seven. Last
> > year I maxed out with fifteen but did a lot of instructing (which pays
> > way less than writing.) Right now I'm up to twenty-one, which is ten
> > ahead of this week last year.
>
> Wow...that sounds like an awful lot. Be careful! :-) I've seen too mnay
> designs look very similar after a while.
That sure is a worry, but I don't have anyone who sees anyone else. Last
year I had three pairs of shows, each separated by 2000 miles or more, but I
still wrote new drill for each school.
The benefit was score analysis. Getting a really good feel for the phrases
and contours of a show, and matching that against the ability of the group is
probably the most time consuming part for me.
<snip about directors controlling more of their show creation>
> I agree...that is why I do some of my school's music arrangements, and
> write the drill.
So . . . are you compensated with money, or do you do it for love?
> > So, at what point do I say, "enough?" I think it's going to happen in
> > August. And then those directors will turn to the mass produced shows.
>
> Ugh.
ugh is right
> > Craig Harms, cool guy that he is, farms out some of his work to young
> > writers for a cut of the take. But I'm not inclined to trust anyone
> > with my name.
>
> Very wise.
And yet,. Craig seems to be fostering the growth of another generation of
drill writers. For the long term good of the activity, that seems a worthy
goal in and of itself.
> Drill writing is an art form, despite Ken Mazur's protestations...as long
> as you remain fresh and there is "spring in your step," things will look
> up for the future of drill.
I'm not sure it's an art form in and of itself. I think it's more of a genre
of abstract impressionism within a multi-media environment.
Back when I was an impressionable youngster, this cool soprano and baritone I
marched with (named Ken Zahnle and Robert McCabe - I think) said something
like "wouldn't it be cool to have a video game where you tick the show."
I think it's coming there. How long will it be until we can easily animate
the whole show and music with props and everything. I bet it's within the
next 15 years. Of course it can't replace kids having fun on the field. But
I imagine a different level of artistic satisfaction when I can control EVERY
element of the performance, virtual though it may be.
And imagine showing the kids a shot of the design demo, then a shot of their
performance in that setting.
It's going to be cool.
--
Victor
*******************************
get free stuff for your band at
http://BandTek.com
*******************************
Nikk Pilato
> > I agree...that is why I do some of my school's music arrangements, and
> > write the drill.
> So . . . are you compensated with money, or do you do it for love?
I do it so we can spend our money on instruments and music instead of
paying lil' 'ol me. ;-)
> > Drill writing is an art form, despite Ken Mazur's protestations...as long
> > as you remain fresh and there is "spring in your step," things will look
> > up for the future of drill.
> I'm not sure it's an art form in and of itself. I think it's more of a genre
> of abstract impressionism within a multi-media environment.
I guess it depends on point of view.
Ryan H. Turner
idol's in the drum majoring/drill designing/band directoring business responded
(that would be you Nikk!!), but that dang fire department career of mine just
keeps getting in the way.
Anyway, to answer Victor and Nikk, I too have a deep seeded need to make sure
that I am CUSTOM designing a show. I don't believe in "regurgitation" of
design for the same reasons Victor lists. It's not even fair or ethical
business practice, especially if you say you are a "designer" (and I know Mr.
Mazur is starting to do flips right now...but he's cool...). Anyway,
regardless of the ongoing debate about what exactly is "art" and "design" and
what exactly I should (or anyone else in this business) be called, here's my
thoughts...
1. Too much drill is when you can't handle deadlines. Nikk advertises on his
website that he is ON TIME. That's a big attraction for some band directors
that need pages yesterday. Some directors however, as a side note, can be a
little unrealistic with turnaround time. However, the bottom line is if you
can't hang with the deadlines, don't take the job and move on.
2. I don't know how Victor does it, but 21 sure seems on the steep end of
clients. However, Dave Weinberg, a huge talent and name in the business out
here in southern California, has written for as many as I believe 35 bands in
one season. He's quite prolific with Pyware 3d, so I think he moves pretty
fast. This year, I'm looking at possibly up to 15 in 3 states, and I'm
definitely ready for the challenge.
3. And for the record, to just make sure Nikk knows (which he does), we are by
EVERY DEFINITION I CAN FIND, designers. We may not have schooling in GRAPHIC
design, we may not have a degree in art, nor may we be even able to draw the
broadside of a barn, however, the movement of bodies in geometric shapes
traversing vast amounts of stage area in accordance with musical phrases and
stylistic interpretations...yeah, I'm a designer!! Thank you very much. Right
Nikk??
Anyway, I'm surprised I haven't seen more designers replying to this
thread...where are you guys. You're the same ones out there advertising all
the time. What are your thoughts...
Ryan H. Turner--Man w/NO life whatsover...and proud of it!!
MARCHING BAND, DRUM CORPS, WINTER GUARD FAN
VK DM 1986 and 1987
Show Design Consultant/Visual Consultant/Marching Instructor
911/Fire Dept Comm. Dispatcher...and a partridge in a pear tree!
JohnIannaci
ancient chisle on stone tablets and BIG FAT ERASERS) for a large NJ high
school band. I just wanted to respond to this thread and present an opinion
not necessarily for feedback as much as for therapy (my own venting
session).
The group I design for runs about 180 members annually and has a
HUMONGOUS colorguard (grrrrrrrrrrrr).
I've come to realize that the visual captions in our competitive
division (not gonna mention which, let's just say it starts with a T), well,
the visual captions have, for the most part, been taken on by judges with
MUCHO colorguard resumes.
Over the past 5 seasons I've emassed a library of critique tapes that
are absolutely FILLED with colorguard comments. It's very frustrating to
have written, taught, sweat, rewritten set after set of drill and to watch
those musicians work their minds and bodies to the point of utter
exhaustion, just to have the roughly 140 of them OVERLOOKED year after year
after year, show after show after show!!!
I've come to the novel idea of "how about we just form a concert arc on
the 50 and save all the time, devotion, sweat, agrivation, etc. etc. by
just writing a colorguard drill???? What the heck?
As a staff, we sit at the beginning of every season and make our
"checklist" of criteria as I'm sure all others do. We have HIGH quality,
extremely reputable staff who are known and respected within the activity
that "consult" with us in the show designing process. The band has earned
"top ten" status, that they've EARNED!!! When sitting in judge's critiques
after shows we're CONSTANTLY having to "point out" all the on field
achievements by band proper and battery during the show to the judges. All
the things that they "missed". We chronically find that the tapes, sheets
and numbers in visual captions are a direct reflection on the colorguard's
performance that day and that's it!! In my opinion, I repeat, MY OPINION,
the visual judges are tending to find their "comfort zone" and zeroing in on
that as the total caption.
So, having vented. (thanks for the ear). I'd just like to hear someone
else's thoughts, experiences or anything to console us lowly drill designers
on this topic. I'm PRAYING that someone, somewhere has a parallel opionion
or experience. Then maybe I'll be able to stop mutalating my wrists with my
old fashioned ruler and lead pencils out of frustration.
Thanks for the shoulder. DRILL DESIGNERS UNITE!!!
Always humble,
Charlene "Chaz" Iannaci
(frustrated artist) ><iii><0
Ryan H. Turner <vkdm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010605172058...@ng-ff1.aol.com...
Mike Simaska
(Note: In TOB, Aux is a separately judged caption and is not part of the
total score)
I read your theory with great interest and decided to check a few 2000
recaps (5 TOB G3 sheets) and compared results. Not suprisingly there is
some correlation between GE Vis and Aux. But GE Vis rankings were very
often at odds with Aux rankings. In nearly half the samples (14 out of 30)
, the Aux rank did not correspond to the GEVis rank. OTOH there is about
an 80% statistical corr. between the two captions. Also the correlation was
very high early in the season and fell off to the lowest point at Chapters.
So....
What's the relationship between GE Vis and Aux? Does strong m&m detract or
enhance the aux score (or vice versa)? Can excellence in Aux distract a Ge
Vis judge from weak m&m? How does "design" factor into the equation (does
the show hide or feature the aux, etc...)?
----
mike
"JohnIannaci" <JohnI...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:#3J9C#o7AHA.289@cpmsnbbsa07...
Ryan H. Turner
I will DEFINITELY vent right back at you. And I will say for the sake of this
discussion that the judging association that I am most familiar with that has
provided the most comments for my drills over the last 16+ years is actually
not really a judging association. I make this disclaimer in the beginning
because I've been harsh on this organization on this newsgroup in year's past,
and I am finally, after all of these years understanding this organization's
contribution and mission to the marching band activity in southern California.
That being said, one thing in particular that stands out about your post was
that you have "critique" sessions. AT LEAST YOU GET THOSE! But I'm beginning
to think that if you have gone to multiple critiques over the years and have
had to constantly point out the wind and percussion proper achievements, than
perhaps having the critiques is a waste of time, yes? Wouldn't stand to reason
that your efforts as a designer/instructor to dialogue with the judges would
initiate some kind of change or better sensitivity within that organization?
Maybe that's why our association out here DOESN'T have them.
However, the parallel thought that I have is actually a complete agreement
about the sweating, toiling, rewriting, and general fretting over wanting to
get a visual effect with a musical effect (something so obvious that the
AUDIENCE obviously gets it), but not getting ANY comment on it whatsoever.
However, the visual and general effect captions out here in southern Cal are
judged by band directors, not experts within the field of visual design or
instruction. While there ARE great directors that I have received very
legitimate and constructive comments from, they by and large are usually the
visual execution or performance people. The GE tapes I get are by and large
worthless for they either don't get the criteria on the back of the sheet, or
they cross judge out of caption and end up missing things.
Also, and this is going to sound bad, but I know I put a lot of effort and
thought into what I do. I really do endeavor to give creative drill and do
"custom" drill and interpret the music as best as I can. I have seen other
bands that don't show that kind of thought in their design, yet, they get
"credit". THAT is quite frustrating. I wonder if you notice THAT back there?
Anyway...thanks for your comments. I hope you have more luck this season. I'm
beginning to adopt the "this is JUST marching band" so make it attainable and
cleanable, and insist that the groups march it clean. Apparently it's not the
thought that goes into the design, it's just the way it's performed.
Comments?
Ryan H. Turner
>enhance the aux score (or vice versa)? Can excellence in Aux distract a Ge
>Vis judge from weak m&m? How does "design" factor into the equation (does
>the show hide or feature the aux, etc...)?
Oh man...great questions!! While I haven't done a statistical breakdown of the
scores out here in southern California, I know that the colorguard judges out
here are color guard instructors and designers, many with WGI background. The
GE judges are band directors that may or may not have any experience when it
comes to that. So, the disagreements (again, I can't provide
documentation...but it's a big thing out here) between the two judges are
sometimes annoyingly large (spread). Also, at some shows, two music judges can
be judging sitting right next to each other and hear TWO totally different
things, and hence, give two different rankings.
My thoughts are about scoring and ranking is this...and it's ALWAYS been this
way. If 2 judges don't agree in the score for their caption for a particular
group, at least they SHOULD agree on the placing. Either a group is better or
worse than the other, and to rank them correctly should be the goal. I could
care less if one score is a 70 and the other a 90...and long as their both
first place or whatever place, great. Does that make sense?
JohnIannaci
Wow, EXCELLENT input!!! Thanks for starting an awesome forum.
Mike, you had stated that (In TOB, Aux. is a seperately judged caption
and is not part of the total score). This is true as to the "seperately
judged caption" but the Aux. performance most certainly DOES factor into the
overall score. Maybe I've misunderstood what you were saying?
I also agree with your statistical findings and your questions. Those
questions are ones that come across our table at the time of design
consultations.
I, being the visual person that I am, find myself not often verbalizing
my thoughts clearly. The point or inquiry I really have is what can be
done, if anything, to assure that the total program gets proper
acknowledging and critiquing (spelling)?
I've pondered somethings that maybe can be "round tabled" and honed to
enhance the judging arena? I'd like to see and hear others opinions.
What do we think of a "judge's checklist". Something to the effect of,
a judge takes the caption for the event and is handed a "checklist" (for
lack of better term) that he MUST adhere to in the process of his analysis.
For instance...the onfield visual judges are to all start at 50 yard line,
work the field in clockwise position and prove by comments on tape that they
have sampled ALL elements within their caption. This is a rough sketch of
what I'm thinking. I hope you understand my point though. I would find it
much easier to "stomache" if you slammed a part of the ensemble or better
yet credited a part of ensemble if I was assured that you actually sampled
their performances. Too often though I am found viewing negative numbers in
the caption but on tape or in critiques, that judge can't "substantiate" his
findings (the common retort I get is, "after viewing 17 bands today, I can't
really remember exactly what the example was but it was there while I was
viewing your band.") Now how do I return to the members with any feedback
and/or how do we approach and fix problem areas or concerns that we are not
aware of? Things that have been misinterpreted from our show concepts and
such.
Another venue I would like to see or hear opinions on is....How about
something like Olympic style judging? Toss out highest and lowest numbers
for your performance and average out the rest. I know, I know, many many
many holes in this theory, I'm just opening up an avenue, it would most
definetly need honing and shaping. For instance....If your percussion is
highest number, then not only will you be losing that valued score (that
you've counted on to help elevate performance) but then they possibly lose
the percussion award too. Well, before you toss that score, make sure if it
wins the subcaption that that particular group is still awarded those honors
on the day, just don't use their score in the averaging process. The recap
sheets would show the justification of the subcaption awards. Am I making
any sense here? As for counting on that particular part of your entire
package to help pull you through the season, well that's where the "round
table" comes into play, let's discuss this, let's put all on table and see
what we come up with. I think there's value in this type of judging, it
eleviates favortism or the other end of spectrum where a particular judge
just doesn't care for your performance.....
I'm not professing to have ANY answers. I'm just a person who has a
PASSION for the activity and the young adults that are a part of it. If I
can be of ANY value during my time in the activity then I'm a RICH person
and have acheived something that many, many people only dream to do in their
careers.
Again, I thank you for any and all opinions and replies. It's
interesting and exciting to see and hear.
Still frustrated,
MommaChaz ><iii><0
Ryan H. Turner <vkdm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010606170124...@ng-cu1.aol.com...
Mike Simaska
> and is not part of the total score). This is true as to the "seperately
> judged caption" but the Aux. performance most certainly DOES factor into
the
> overall score. Maybe I've misunderstood what you were saying?
Since I was comparing Aux scores to GEVis scores, I thought I'd better make
the point about Aux caption for those non-TOB readers out there. I do
realize that the guard is included in the GEVis caption.
----
mike
Victor
fall outside the general culture of what we do. Ticks are long gone, but not
forgotten.
I think the tendency among judges is to look for errors where they can find
them. And when you have two or three or five bands that are all really top
flight, how else can you choose?
If you choose to judge by rewarding positive things, isn't that exactly the same
as not rewarding the negative?
If you're the GE judge, and if all the spacing and direction changes and
uniformity of style, and musicality of carriage things and impact points and
speed changes are pretty close to equal, aren't you bound to start noticing the
timing problems in the flags, or technique problems in feet, or spacing
irregularities?
I just wish there were more judges, so it would all balance ot better. But I
guess that's another funding problem.
JohnIannaci wrote:
--
Mike Simaska
of,
> a judge takes the caption for the event and is handed a "checklist" (for
> lack of better term) that he MUST adhere to in the process of his
analysis.
> For instance...the onfield visual judges are to all start at 50 yard line,
> work the field in clockwise position and prove by comments on tape that
they
> have sampled ALL elements within their caption. This is a rough sketch of
> what I'm thinking. I hope you understand my point though.
What happens when a band starts scattered or boxed around the field or
whatever? A "standardized" pattern sure sounds like it wouldn't be flexible
enough for the variety of shows out there.
> I would find it
> much easier to "stomache" if you slammed a part of the ensemble or better
> yet credited a part of ensemble if I was assured that you actually sampled
> their performances. Too often though I am found viewing negative numbers
in
> the caption but on tape or in critiques, that judge can't "substantiate"
his
> findings (the common retort I get is, "after viewing 17 bands today, I
can't
> really remember exactly what the example was but it was there while I was
> viewing your band.") Now how do I return to the members with any feedback
> and/or how do we approach and fix problem areas or concerns that we are
not
> aware of? Things that have been misinterpreted from our show concepts and
> such.
This is a legitimate concern. Let's face it -- there's no way most judges
can recall every detail of every show she judged that evening. While he
might have a general impression and maybe a few specific suggestions (that
hopefully he wrote down on the sheets!), remembering all details is close
to impossible. The tape can take down all the details. But the tape
content needs to be more than 'tics' and 'kudos'. It needs to specific and
thoughtful enough to allow the *judge* (when confronted with her comments
by staff member) to recall her thoughts "at the time." If a judge cannot
recall and discuss your show intelligently, there's little point in talking
to him at all. Probably every staff has been asked "did you listen to my
tape". I think most do. The problem occurs when the tape content doesn't
allow the staff to "jog" the judge's brain into recalling the point she was
trying to make. IMHO the tape should be one giant "note to self". When
a judge's explanation in critique is "listen to the tape", the process
fails. Evaluation is meaningless without explanation.
> Another venue I would like to see or hear opinions on is....How about
> something like Olympic style judging? Toss out highest and lowest numbers
> for your performance and average out the rest. I know, I know, many many
> many holes in this theory, I'm just opening up an avenue, it would most
> definetly need honing and shaping. For instance....If your percussion is
> highest number, then not only will you be losing that valued score (that
> you've counted on to help elevate performance) but then they possibly lose
> the percussion award too. Well, before you toss that score, make sure if
it
> wins the subcaption that that particular group is still awarded those
honors
> on the day, just don't use their score in the averaging process. The
recap
> sheets would show the justification of the subcaption awards. Am I making
> any sense here? As for counting on that particular part of your entire
> package to help pull you through the season, well that's where the "round
> table" comes into play, let's discuss this, let's put all on table and see
> what we come up with. I think there's value in this type of judging, it
> eleviates favortism or the other end of spectrum where a particular judge
> just doesn't care for your performance.....
I'm all for tossing out those low scores<G>!!
Olympic judging works when the entire judging panel is evaluating the same
criteria from the same point of view. (TOB) judging has very specific
criteria for each caption and judges who have been specifically trained to
judge that caption; many of the judges get a unique point-of-view of the
performance. Unless every judge used the same sheets and sat in the box, I
don't see how you could use Olympic style of judging.
But your intent (to eliminate "aberrations") is a good one.
> I'm not professing to have ANY answers. I'm just a person who has a
> PASSION for the activity and the young adults that are a part of it. If I
> can be of ANY value during my time in the activity then I'm a RICH person
> and have acheived something that many, many people only dream to do in
their
> careers.
The process can only improve with an attitude like that!! Good for you.
----
mike
Oliver Bullock
> thread...where are you guys. You're the same ones out there advertising all
> the time. What are your thoughts...
>
>
> Ryan H. Turner--Man w/NO life whatsover...and proud of it!!
> MARCHING BAND, DRUM CORPS, WINTER GUARD FAN
> VK DM 1986 and 1987
> Show Design Consultant/Visual Consultant/Marching Instructor
> 911/Fire Dept Comm. Dispatcher...and a partridge in a pear tree!
Ryan...couldn't help but take the opportunity to say "thank you."
You've
said some pretty nice things about me on this forum in the past and I
just wanted you to know how much that means to a person such as
myself.
As for my thoughts on the subject at hand.....
I've never been one to advertise(or even make a business card) for my
product...so the amount of "gigs" I currently have is a direct result
of "word of mouth." I took the position early in my career that if I
really wanted to make a living a something as speacialized as drill
writing....I'd better be worth the "salt" so-to-speak. The result was
a roller coaster ride of emotions....working in anominity, cursing the
tapes, vowing not listen to the tapes, joining the winter guard scene,
joining the indoor percussion scene....
all the while building a steady base of clients. The wisdom gained
along this journey(that I'm still on) has allowed me to get a grasp of
the task at hand and to evalute the workload offered. Today I sit
with the largest workload I've
ever shouldered....but feel more confident than when I had half the
amount.
Now I'm not trying to irk any writers out there....but, I don't know
how you have so much time to post/advertise....shouldn't you be
writing?....or fishing?
Stop evaulating how much you can do and make sure the "gigs" you do
have reach the level of "success" you define before the season starts.
Many times this "success" is more elusive than a particular placement
or score. This in turn teaches us the value of understanding what a
successful season is to an individual group. Creating the basis of a
solid business model for designers
to continue "to do what they love to do."
Just my two cents....I've been doing this for 12 years now and I'm
just getting
started as far as I'm concerned. Designing is how I make a living and
I would like the opportunity to get paid to "play" to continue.
However this is my own "model"....I'm sure there are many other
approaches that will work.
BTW Ryan(since the next time I post I wiil have forgotten my
password)....don't be too critical of the Vanguard Cadets this
summer....we're just trying to get ready for Nats' next year.
have good summer and don't forget to have fun this fall.....
Oliver
Ryan H. Turner
>You've
>said some pretty nice things about me on this forum in the past and I
>just wanted you to know how much that means to a person such as
>myself.
Oh man...you kidding me?? I sat in amazement at the shows last year and
thought that SCV Cadets were incredible. And without looking at the program I
just assumed Myron did it, but was just even more surprised (not in a bad
way...like you've been horrible UP TO last year!! Hahaha) that it was you.
Anyway, yes...I tell everyone I meet that you are DEFINITELY on the "up and
coming" list for sure. No doubt in my mind.
>The result was
>a roller coaster ride of emotions....working in anominity, cursing the
>tapes, vowing not listen to the tapes, joining the winter guard scene,
>joining the indoor percussion scene....
>all the while building a steady base of clients.
AMEN about the "vowing not to listen to the tapes" thing. Sheesh! Dang if I
didn't come home and bang my head into a wall back in my younger, less
"refined" years...
>Today I sit
>with the largest workload I've
>ever shouldered....but feel more confident than when I had half the
>amount.
ME TOO!
>Now I'm not trying to irk any writers out there....but, I don't know
>how you have so much time to post/advertise....shouldn't you be
>writing?....or fishing?
>Stop evaulating how much you can do and make sure the "gigs" you do
>have reach the level of "success" you define before the season starts.
Certainly not one to want to irk other writers either, because I think we are
all on the same or similar pages (excuse the pun), but part of the motivation
for my "Drill Design By A Diet Coke Fiend" advertisement that I did about 2
weeks ago was I had reached my limit of seeing "ads". I haven't advertised in
about, well, 3 years ago...but I did it just to do it. I got one call, and
that didn't even pan out.
>Many times this "success" is more elusive than a particular placement
>or score.
Many time this "success" for ME is maybe pushing myself into a different
territory of design...thinking of a "different" way of getting from point a to
b. Other times this "success" for me is teaching a band a production from
beginning to end (including basics!!), and seeing it gel. THAT sometimes is,
regardless of the scores, THE most satisfying thing.
>Just my two cents....I've been doing this for 12 years now and I'm
>just getting
>started as far as I'm concerned.
Well, if you're just getting started, I'm putting my pencils away. I CAN'T
COMPETE!!! Hahahaha...but seriously, it's a fine line that some of us walk in
this activity. It's a business, it's a hobby, it's a love, it's a need for
directors to hire us. Not exactly a sit down at a desk 8 to 5 job...but that
makes it fun.
Have a GREAT summer Oliver...and I hope to see you somewhere so I can shake
your hand again. I'll be announcing all over southern Cal this year again....
And congrats again on all of your successes.
Mike D.
> To Mike and Ryan,
>
> I've pondered somethings that maybe can be "round tabled" and honed to
> enhance the judging arena? I'd like to see and hear others opinions.
> What do we think of a "judge's checklist". Something to the effect of,
> a judge takes the caption for the event and is handed a "checklist" (for
> lack of better term) that he MUST adhere to in the process of his analysis.
> For instance...the onfield visual judges are to all start at 50 yard line,
> work the field in clockwise position and prove by comments on tape that they
> have sampled ALL elements within their caption.
The idea of sampling all sections is a great one, and hopefully judges try and
do that. I know I did when I was actively judging (music) prior to going
"on staff" with a competitive band here in NJ. Field-level judges have to make
the effort to hear/see everyone.
The concept of a pre-defined checklist, though, is something that probably
won't work, given the design variations from band to band these days.
> This is a rough sketch of
> what I'm thinking. I hope you understand my point though. I would find it
> much easier to "stomache" if you slammed a part of the ensemble or better
> yet credited a part of ensemble if I was assured that you actually sampled
> their performances. Too often though I am found viewing negative numbers in
> the caption but on tape or in critiques, that judge can't "substantiate" his
> findings (the common retort I get is, "after viewing 17 bands today, I can't
> really remember exactly what the example was but it was there while I was
> viewing your band.")
That's a cop-out by the judge. Yes, the judge may not remember the
particulars that many bands later, but their tapes had BETTER substantiate
the score they gave. What I used to do, when judging a music caption in the
press box, is to use the back of my sheet to draw little visual pictures and
highlight whatever it was I was talking about at a given time, as much
for myself to remember later as to give the director something concrete
to look at. For example, if I had a balance problem with, say, the
low brass, I'd draw a little line drawing of the drill at that time,
circle the area where the low brass were (and label it) and then
then make a small comment on the sheet, along with my taped comment. I
found it VERY helpful at the critique.
What I did at the start of the
band's show is to draw three vertical lines on the back of the sheet to
divide the sheet into thirds for my little pictures. I'd also sketch
in the opening set, and do a rough count of the various instruments, esp
for the classes with the smaller bands. I'd hate to be commenting on a
lack of clarinet presence, for example, only to discover that there was only
one on the field or something.
> Now how do I return to the members with any feedback
> and/or how do we approach and fix problem areas or concerns that we are not
> aware of? Things that have been misinterpreted from our show concepts and
> such.
If the judge misinterpreted things, just ignore them! :-)
It happens every now and then. On the other hand, if the concepts
are consistently misinterpreted, then maybe the show itself isn't
as clear as it might be at presenting your ideas.
> Another venue I would like to see or hear opinions on is....How about
> something like Olympic style judging? Toss out highest and lowest numbers
> for your performance and average out the rest. I know, I know, many many
> many holes in this theory, I'm just opening up an avenue, it would most
> definetly need honing and shaping. For instance....If your percussion is
> highest number, then not only will you be losing that valued score (that
> you've counted on to help elevate performance) but then they possibly lose
> the percussion award too. Well, before you toss that score, make sure if it
> wins the subcaption that that particular group is still awarded those honors
> on the day, just don't use their score in the averaging process. The recap
> sheets would show the justification of the subcaption awards. Am I making
> any sense here?
The only way Olymopic style would work is to have every judge be judging
the same things, which isn't really workable, IMO.
> As for counting on that particular part of your entire
> package to help pull you through the season, well that's where the "round
> table" comes into play, let's discuss this, let's put all on table and see
> what we come up with. I think there's value in this type of judging, it
> eleviates favortism or the other end of spectrum where a particular judge
> just doesn't care for your performance.....
In 21 years of judging, and 30 years of teaching (since my freshman year
in college in 1971), judge bias has played a very limited role, in
my opinion, either for or against particular bands. Has it EVER happened?
Of course. Most of the time, taken on a whole, the judges have indeed
gotten it right, whether or not I agree with a particular score/placement at
a given show.
> I'm not professing to have ANY answers. I'm just a person who has a
> PASSION for the activity and the young adults that are a part of it. If I
> can be of ANY value during my time in the activity then I'm a RICH person
> and have acheived something that many, many people only dream to do in their
> careers.
Great statement!
> Again, I thank you for any and all opinions and replies. It's
> interesting and exciting to see and hear.
>
Yes, this stuff IS interesting, esp as we start to rehearse for next
fall's season.
Great thread!
Mike Davis, Asst MB director, West Windsor-Plainsboro HS South, NJ, USSBA
Class II, 1994-????
EMBA music adjudicator, 1979-1994 (plus indoor percussion since then)
Victor
> Now I'm not trying to irk any writers out there....but, I don't know
> how you have so much time to post/advertise....shouldn't you be
> writing?....or fishing?
Ah . . . touché!
But I sprained my ankle, and I can't walk very well right now. And I just
finished my happiest school year ever. A fourth of the students at my school are
now in band and orchestra, and I'm tired of serious stuff.
> Stop evaulating how much you can do and make sure the "gigs" you do
> have reach the level of "success" you define before the season starts.
> Many times this "success" is more elusive than a particular placement
> or score. This in turn teaches us the value of understanding what a
> successful season is to an individual group. Creating the basis of a
> solid business model for designers
> to continue "to do what they love to do."
I think this is very well put, but see, I have this cool website I built way back
when, and it has pretty good search engine placement, and people ask for drill
clear into early August. I'm certain now that by then I'll have to turn them
away. That sort of bums me out.
> ....we're just trying to get ready for Nats' next year.
cool to hear someone still say "Nats."
Anthony DeMarino
may not have schooling in GRAPHIC design, we may not have a degree in
amounts of stage area in accordance with musical phrases and stylistic
SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT:
What is a designer?
According to Webster it is "one who creates and often executes plans for a
project or structure."
So, by that definition, isn't anyone who charts even a single dot of drill "a
designer?"
And even if someone IS a self-proclaimed "designer," and even if they fit the
above definition, Isn't the real question: "are they a good or effective
designer?"
Even though we are talking about drill, shouldn't a good designer understand
the philosophies and principles of design? Line, form, texture, rhythm,
balance, positive and negative space, tension, etc..... It is, after all, these
elements that make a successful, effective and visually engaging drill.
Is it possible to learn these philosophies by observation? OR, Do you need to
attend 4 years of college and earn a BFA in design in order to write an
effective drill? And even if you do, does that automatically mean you will be a
brilliant designer?
I think the true measure of a designer's ability is simply in the product....
That is, what they produce.
Does it engage the viewer? Is it musically and visually effective? Is it
original? And is it achievable by the students that are attempting it?
Those are the real questions to raise....
my thoughts
-ad
By the way, I have a BFA in Graphic Design and my school's definition of a
designer: "one who brings order to chaos." - go figure.
Ryan H. Turner
>designer: "one who brings order to chaos." - go figure.
And we KNOW what chaos high school marching bands can be!! :-)
Hey...you know, I agree with everything in your post, since you were sort of
answering mine. HOWEVER, and I do say this just as a "fairness" issue. While
Ken Mazur may have trouble excepting the definition of "designer" as we see it,
I DO understand where he is coming from. His beef as I have grown to understand
it is his frustration with 2 major things. First, the judging criteria is such
that a large percentage of the "credit" doesn't go to the student, but rather,
those that put shows together. I can understand that definitely, because I've
always ranted about this "being for the kids". Well, it is...and our
(designers and instructors) best efforts SHOULD be for the kids, and not for
the ego stroke of "winning" a caption or a division. Secondly, he thinks (and
maybe he's right) that BECAUSE of this emphasis, directors (in general) are
fishing, hunting, going for, or otherwise striving to "get the trophy". How do
you do that? You hire the best "designers". And what RANKLES him is that
there are some of US that claim to be MORE than what we are. And hence, in
that effort to get the trophy, directors are buying or believing these
"credentials" of "designers" and spending in some cases spending LARGE amounts
of tax payer money to afford them. He says "PROVE YOUR CREDENTIALS" as a
designer, than he may be able to understand.
I have no argument essentially with what he says It's sort of a double-edged
sword in some regards. He doesn't recognize the "real world" teaching and
learning that Mr. DeMarino, myself, and many others have had as a "credential".
But then again, he would have people think that ALL of us "designers" are out
to bilk the system because we KNOW directors need us. I do have a HUGE problem
when he defines ME (and anyone else with NO research on his part) as such. I
have NO doubt that there are turkeys out there that misrepresent who, what,
where, and when they did what they say they did. Heck, I even know of people
that claim membership in corps that they never even laid foot in on a camp!
So, bottom line. Classical definition as Mr. DeMarino and I have put out there
still stands. All of us dudes and even one dudette that I've heard from are
DESIGNERS by every sense of the definition. But in a sort of fairness defense
of Mr. Mazur, he is frustrated, and rightly so. But yes, he HAS irritated many
of us by pigeon holing ALL of us into his frustration. If only he could relax
that a little and focus in on the "fakes" (how he or I would find a fake I
don't know), then I think he'd make many happy.
Mr. Mazur and I came to an agreement I think several months ago about this, and
he appreciated the fact that instead of me getting huffy and calling him names,
that I was able to clearly present my case.
So, there you go...thanks Mr. DeMarino for your input by the way! HAVE A GREAT
SEASON DESIGNING...or drawing 2 dimensional connect the dots...or whatever it
is we do!! :-)
Victor
> Even though we are talking about drill, shouldn't a good designer understand
> the philosophies and principles of design? Line, form, texture, rhythm,
> balance, positive and negative space, tension, etc..... It is, after all, these
> elements that make a successful, effective and visually engaging drill.
yes, yes, and yes
> Is it possible to learn these philosophies by observation?
I don't think passive observation alone can do it. I think it requires higher
order thought about design and the design process. In my case, I drink in
everything I can about painting, drawing, architecture and design. And not just
one kind of design.
The society we live in right now is very much oriented to visual design. It's the
backbone of the html interface, and it's going to become increasingly important.
> OR, Do you need to
> attend 4 years of college and earn a BFA in design in order to write an
> effective drill? And even if you do, does that automatically mean you will be a
> brilliant designer?
IMO, having design chops doesn't mean a person is going to design any kind of good
drill at all. Drill is more than just design. It's also abstract animation, and
choreography and staging, so a drill designer needs to study those things.
It means watching ballets and operas, and <shudder> plays.
> I think the true measure of a designer's ability is simply in the product....
> That is, what they produce.
I would add to that that what they produce, in the end, is a functional citizenry
with a life long love of music learning. That sounds like a lofty ideal, but isn't
that what music education is about?
> Does it engage the viewer? Is it musically and visually effective? Is it
> original? And is it achievable by the students that are attempting it?
Will the students be able to love band because of the design, or at the end, will
some of them drop because the designs took the fun out of band. I don't think
acheivability is the end all be all. It IS possible to march 6 to 5 backward at
very fast tempos, but is it fun? It CAN be fun if it only happens once or twice in
a show, and if it's not just limited to one set of sections. But that (and now you
know my pet peeve in drill design) is sometimes not the case.
I keep seeing these bands where the woodwinds operate on the fringes and have to
book all over creation at breakneck speeds, all in the name of design. And it's
always the worst, youngest clarinetist stuck near the end of the line. You've seen
him/her too. The kid gives up halfway through the move, turns around and runs
because he forgot to meter out his steps, because he was trying to play the music.
The drill might be achievable, but at the end of the season, there is big attrition
in the clarinet section, just in time for concert band festival, when you need
clarinets the most. Check the college band scene and see how short they are on
clarinets. It's because they got driven out by well meaning designers with echoes
of the phrase "kaleidoscope whiplash drill" in their heads.
Let's not do that. It's bad for kids, and bad for band, and bad for the marching
band activity.
> Those are the real questions to raise....
yepperoonie! And I'm not talking about anyone in particular.
JohnIannaci
sentences in your last post-hahaha- I certainly can't profess to being an
English major, just a lowly drill designer.
What great opinions being aired here. I'm not that cerebral, nor can I
afford to expend the energy needed in trying to make heads or tails of the
judging.
I'm enjoying everyone's input though. We all seem to say the same
things, just using different adjectives. We are a "unique" crew, that is
certain.
What I've come to terms with is, "Art is opinion". So, I guess these
types of threads will go on into eternity. Battling, debating, discussing,
consoling, frustrating, elating, and all other emotions wrapped into this
emotional icon called DRILL DESIGNING.
Now that I must get back to DESIGNING. I just wanted to pop in and let
you all know that I'm still reading and enjoying this topic. Keep up the
great conversation. It's enlightening.
Slave to the Eraser,
Charlene Iannaci
Victor <Vic...@BandTek.com> wrote in message
news:3B2C22F6...@BandTek.com...
Victor
> WOW VICTOR!!!! I had to break out my dictionary to decifer most of the
> sentences in your last post-hahaha- I certainly can't profess to being an
> English major, just a lowly drill designer.
It was that darned Mrs. Taylor in the 10th grade.
> What I've come to terms with is, "Art is opinion".
And, like the man said in "Amadeus," there it is.
> Now that I must get back to DESIGNING.
This will be my last post until things calm down a little. I'm happy because
it's June and I have two shows on my desk and two more mailing scores sometime
early this week, but it's really cutting into my anything else time.
Live and learn I guess. Probably next year I'll start saying "no" earlier, or
maybe raise my prices to drive off some other business.
I'll reinstall my news server in September.
TTFN
Victor