should the pit watch the drum major?
Andrew Seigel
Personally, I have my pit players watch the DM while listening to the music
in an attempt (usually successful) to find that middle ground between what
occurs on the podium and what emanates from the field. If they watch the
drum major exceptionally well, and the drum major is in anyway inconsistent
in their pattern, or is attempting a tempo change, it will almost always
sound like the pit is out of sync w/ the band.
A lot depends on the caliber of the pit players, the skills of the DM, and
the level to which the band follows the DM. I have heard judges criticize
pit ensembles for phasing when they were in actuality following the DM like
a hawk. Principles of acoustics inevitably come into play when the
performance ensemble encompasses a considerable, and ever-changing, distance
relationship with an audience and drum major who are in fixed positions.
Andrew Seigel
Delsea Marching Crusaders
Southern New Jersey
Jeff Mitchell
colin hartnett wrote:
> i have my own opinions; i am just looking to hear what you have been taught
> (and why) at your program.
>
> colin.
If anyone has seen Quest, a Div 3 corps from the Garden State Circuit this
season, you might guess you don't even need a drum major. They performed a
fairly difficult program, without a drum major or any type of conducting. They
were amazing tight, you had to see it to believe it!
--
Jeff
Hot can be cool
and cool can be hot
and each can be both.
But hot or cool man,
jazz is jazz.
Louis Armstrong
Visit my drum corps G Bugle webpage at;
http://pages.prodigy.net/jeffmitchell/bugle.html
B. Paul Bailey
<shar...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:7pq89e$4eo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <fr0w3.3944$9K....@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>,
> "colin hartnett" <colinh...@spam.hotmail.com> wrote:
> > NO! Pit needs to listen because of sound delay when everyone is
> > playing. Since pit is in front their sound will reach a crowd faster.
I agree, for drum corps it makes sense to have the pit listen back to the
battery, not the horns. If you can get the battery and the pit in time,
that will save you a lot of trouble. Then you get the DM and the center
snare on the same page it usually all comes together nicely. Of course
these are generalizations and "some" parts of the show do not work out this
way and have to be tweaked.
As for high school band, I really dont think most younger groups should be
told anything about this. If they are having a hard time playing together,
and the battery isn't tight or playing clean it usually just confuses
everybody. I do think all groups should tell the horns not to listen to the
pit and watch the DM. It will not correct all the problems but for a young
group they should all watch the DM, usually the problems they have wouldnt
be corrected by having the pit listen back.
Paul Bailey
Also, they tend to be high pitched instruments which means the sound
> travels faster anyhow. It"s physics of sound. Pit should listen to the
> snares or bases for tempo and use the DM as a guide but not as a rule.
> At times it is even ok to look back at the drumline's feet for tempo.
> If you take the DM's tempo all the time the pit will be off by fractions
> of a second even if they are really good players for the simple facts
> of physics.
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
colin hartnett
shar...@my-deja.com
"colin hartnett" <colinh...@spam.hotmail.com> wrote:
> playing. Since pit is in front their sound will reach a crowd faster.
Namdog Nod
>(and why) at your program.
>
>colin.
>
Well..heres how I view it...yes I think the pit players should watch the Dm at
times....not during difficult mallet work however .....unless your players are
god on mallets.....I don't think its neccessary for the pit players to watch
the DM at all times.....theres different things for all pit players to be
watching at various times in a show...often pit players are gonna need to watch
the footwork of the corps or band behind them to prevent phasing..between the
pit, battery,and corps or band..but as far at the DM goes.....every now and
then...for cues....dynamics...and basic tempo changes...I think it would be
appropriate...most DM podiums are too close for the pit to watch the DM
anyway...a lot of bands aren't clued in on proper podium placement...even
though you didn't really ask this question...if you do decide to have your pit
players watch the DM...make sure that the podium is placed far enough in front
of the pit so they don't have to stare straight up in order to see the DM...if
you watch any DCI corps especially cadets, SCV and BD...their DM's podiums are
placed in the perfect spots....far enough so that the pit doesn't hurt
themselves when they need to watch the DM (I've seen a lot of strained
necks..lol) ...but close enough so that the corps can see the DM with no
problem.....hope this helps!!!
Don
kno...@rootcom.net
Also, they tend to be high pitched instruments which means the sound
travels faster anyhow. It's physics of sound.
Who's been teaching this fallacy? I heard it also from a drum
instructor earlier this year.
The musical sounds we hear are comprised of various-pitched overtones
as well as the fundamental pitch. All sound travels at the same speed,
in the same environment.
The speed of sound is dependent on the bulk modulus of the air, which
is subject to variations in temperature, humidity, and atmospheric
pressure.
Kristian Mark Twombly
: shararae wrote:
: Also, they tend to be high pitched instruments which means the sound
: travels faster anyhow. It's physics of sound.
: The musical sounds we hear are comprised of various-pitched overtones
: as well as the fundamental pitch. All sound travels at the same speed,
: in the same environment.
I would just add that if higher pitched sounds traveled faster, then a
listener would hear what would sound like a gliss as the higher overtones
reached the listeners ear. (Not really a gliss per se, but a seperation
of overtones down to the fundamental). This effect would happen in ALL
sounds.
You might be referring to the filtration that can occur that causes
certain frequencies to be absorbed by grass, humidity, etc. That would
cause other timbres like Orchestra Bells to be overbalanced.
Anyway, I am sure that a bunch of us could go into dissertations on this
subject (some of us HAVE..haha)
Kristian Twombly
Master's Candidate, Electronic Music Composition
Cody Nulph
of phasing happens. The music and the drum major are not together at
times, specially in stadiums that echo a lot.
When it comes to hard mallet work, you can not watch the DM if you want
to make it sound good.
Cody
Pit Percussion
Marimba, Bells, Keyboard
Redbank Valley Marching Band
Lakeshore Marching Band Asosiation
Tom & Karen Peashey
Hi Kristian...
Tom
Kristian Mark Twombly wrote in message <7prjk7$kdf$1...@hecate.umd.edu>...
Kitkatxyz
>times, specially in stadiums that echo a lot.
I would think a stadium that echos would be a strong reason TO watch the
DM.......... with all the echo, how do you know what is the actual sound to
play with and not just an echo?? If the WHOLE band watches and plays with the
DM, then they should all be playing together, without having to worry about
phasing (at least in theory-- I have seen/heard otherwise)......... and I
don't really "buy" the "pit-is-in-front-so-sound-is-heard-sooner" thing......
sound travels at the same speed, true, but over the width of a football field--
there's not really going to be an audible difference because it's so fast......
Snare311
Hmmm......... I have heard so many things while in drums corps.
Sometimes our instructors would say "Battery don't listen to the pit,
look at the drum major because of sound delay!" or they would say to the
pit "Pit watch the drum major!" or "Pit, look back field at the
battery's feet!"
I think it all depends on the situation. Especially depending on the
position of the band in relation to the pit.
(WOW! my first post on a topic concerning band or music!)
--
~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~
Johnathan "Fugi" Richards
Capital Regiment D&BC
http://come.to/mvhsdrum
Donald Owens
>Sometimes our instructors would say "Battery don't listen to the pit,
>look at the drum major because of sound delay!" or they would say to the
>pit "Pit watch the drum major!" or "Pit, look back field at the
>battery's feet!"
>
>I think it all depends on the situation. Especially depending on the
>position of the band in relation to the pit.
>
>(WOW! my first post on a topic concerning band or music!)
>
It's funny how through the whole season the staff tells you one thing, then
when you make finals for the dome, they have to tell you the opposite. Makes
the finals experience that much more interesting, the dome that is. I remember
one year we made finals at the RCA Dome. We started our 3rd mvt with a unison
double handed rim shot/ fff horn staccato note. We, the drumline, we right on
the helmet. Let's just say, we could still hear the echo 2 sets into the
movement. It was tasty. :)
-Donny-
LuvSkatin
>one year we made finals at the RCA Dome. We started our 3rd mvt with a unison
>double handed rim shot/ fff horn staccato note. We, the drumline, we right on
>the helmet. Let's just say, we could still hear the echo 2 sets into the
>movement. It was tasty. :)
>
>-Donny-
The RCA dome IS an awful place for echoes!! The first 3-4 counts of one of
our silent sets was replaced with echoes from the really loud set before! But
when you're actually down on the field, it's not that hard to tell which is the
actual sound and which is the echo.
I don't think the pit should watch the DM once the band is confident with
the music and plays it steadily. Some people have said "it's only the distance
of a football field" but there actually is a delay from the band. If the pit
is right with the DM, it just doesn't match up perfectly with the band.
Kasey :-)
Spirit of Woodlan
Indiana, Class D
Alan Mundy
them, the staging of the band. If most of the band is behind the front hash, or
out on the wings, then sound delay becomes a problem and the pit should probly
listen or look back. When the band becomes centered and moves forward, the pit
can do a little of both...split the difference and groove it :)
Alan Mundy
The RAMB Guru-Part Deux
C.R.D.
DmajorCali
The pit should always!!! look at the DM. In my band it is are job to go with
the Drumlines feet so we are always right with the DrumLine. If the pit
Listens back they will be behind. If the DM is not with battery then you will
have three different sounds. Belive me I speak from experiance. The DM and the
center snare has got to communicate all the time. I recommend to all Drum
Majors, to form a great relationship with the center snare. They will make you
or brake you:) My DM in 96 did not have a good relationship with the center
snare and there were alot of timing errors. So please Pit watch the DM. he/she
is the connection to the DrumLine.
Ryan Robison
Former Drum Major of
Lawrence Central
ljo...@my-deja.com
> DM, then they should all be playing together, without having to worry about
> phasing (at least in theory-- I have seen/heard otherwise).........
The Clue Phone is ringing! Maybe you've already noticed that if
everybody watches all the time, there WILL be phasing. Because:
and I
> don't really "buy" the "pit-is-in-front-so-sound-is-heard-sooner" thing......
> sound travels at the same speed, true, but over the width of a football field--
> there's not really going to be an audible difference because it's so fast......
>
Sound travels at the same speed, and that speed is thousands of times
slower than the speed of light. Why bother talking about the speed of
light? Because that's how fast we all see the DM's hands.. duh...
Next time you're on the field, notice how far behind a drum's sound is
from when you see the stick hit the head. Once you get your ears tuned
well enough, you'll notice a difference before the drummer gets farther
away than the front hash.
OR, watch someone dribbling a basketball down the block, and you'll hear
the bounce while the ball is coming up from the ground. I remember
noticing that back in 2nd grade.
The most out-of-phase pit I've ever seen was one that watched the DM
"like a hawk" for the enitre show -- the pit was always ahead of the
rest of the corps. I was embarrassed that these kids were being told
that this was correct, and I was never involved with that corps!
The pit should ALWAYS listen back, EXCEPT:
-- a pit-only entrance, then they should watch, and if necessary, have
some means of making sure they're together before the first note.
-- a release, such as the cutoff of a loud sustained chord in a ballad,
and the pit's playing a cymbal roll or something; the pit can't hear
the horns release, so they need to watch the DM for that.
-- if the pit's placed back on the field, and the rest of the band/corps
is alongside or in front; then the pit should behave like a battery,
watching or anticipating as needed. A timekeeping part (such as a
hihat) would do wonders for keeping the pitsters together.
-- many times, when several pitsters are playing a unison smash of some
kind, it's best for them to watch each other and/or watch one pitster
who's keeping time, either by listening or watching back, or watching
the DM.
-- many other tricks that are best devised and implemented on a case-by-
case basis.
Basically, if there is ever an audible cue from the field, the pit --
and everyone in front of that cue -- should listen to it. If not, other
things need to be used, and the transition back to the on-field pulse
will need to be rehearsed many times.
Seeya,
Leland
Twirlbabe2
HRott1880
from the band, and sound travels at a given speed, it makes sense that the band
should establish a tempo from the field, not the front (ie. pit). If you are
on the back hash and have the melody perfectly lined up with the drum major in
the front, your sound arrives late to the audience compared to someone from the
front attempting the same feat. Simple Physics. I know many of you have
answered in the same fashion as myself but I just wanted to make sure that any
dummy can understand how sound works.
Hans Rott
p.s. GREAT thread
Drummer666
>and everyone in front of that cue -- should listen to it. If not, other
>things need to be used, and the transition back to the on-field pulse
>will need to be rehearsed many times.
>
>Seeya,
>Leland
this is wise plack.
pie for you.
| | | |
(o o)
^^^
Drummer666
just listen.
| | | |
(o o)
^^^
ce...@aisp.net
"colin hartnett" <colinh...@spam.hotmail.com> wrote:
> i have my own opinions; i am just looking to hear what you have been
taught
> (and why) at your program.
>
> colin.
>
>
After reading all this, I would say:
LISTEN BACK! The only time you should watch is for count offs and
tempo changes (even then you have to "watch with your ears"). The
physics explanation is perfectly legit.
...
Steven Musumeche
Carolina Crown Pit
SCVJen98
>If the pit
>Listens back they will be behind.
...when the DM is getting the tempo from the battery. Finish the sentence, Ryan
:)
>If the DM is not with battery then you will
>have three different sounds.
That's a problem in itself.> The DM and the
>center snare has got to communicate all the time. I recommend to all Drum
>Majors, to form a great relationship with the center snare.
>So please Pit watch the DM. he/she
> is the connection to the DrumLine
Not all bands have the DM reacting off of the center snare, though. When the DM
is *leading* the tempo, the pit SHOULD NOT WATCH THE DRUM MAJOR, *unless* there
is a soli entrance for the pit. *Only* then should the pit look up. The rest of
the time, they should listen back either to the drumline, or in the event that
the DL is too far away to be in-time (speaking on the level of physics and
sound waves), then the pit must be assigned a section to listen to.
However...if the DM *follows* the center snare, then Ryan's advice is true to
form. But, not in every situation does the pit look up. And not in every
situation does *either* way work. Tears (as in rips) do occur from time to time
in every way, no matter how perfect everything seems to be. It's practice,
practice, practice, and that leads to comfort.
DmajorCali
I'm Sorry I due relize that some peoples bands do not follow the snare line,
the snare line just follows the Drum Major. In those cases I don't know how
the pit should work I am clearly giving my own experiance and what I have been
taught. If your band has better experiance listining back go with that, but
in MY!! experiance looking at the DM works best for most bands.
Tom Fadden
need to listen back to the battery and the rest of the band. If the pit
watches the drum major and follows him/her, their sound will get to the
audience before the rest of the band and they will sound as if they're ahead
of the group. Also, they may throw off the drum major if he/she is not
aware of this.
I hope this sheds some light on the subject.
Michele
Percussionist/ Long-time pit member
Instructor and Teacher
colin hartnett <colinh...@spam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fr0w3.3944$9K....@news.rdc1.nj.home.com...
ChemicalMarriage
need to listen back to the battery and the rest of the band. If the pit
watches the drum major and follows him/her, their sound will get to the
audience before the rest of the band and they will sound as if they're ahead
of the group. Also, they may throw off the drum major if he/she is not
aware of this.>>
I agree.
CaptnItaly
Tony J.
Union Renegade Regiment
Dribbles97
bands sound reaches the front the timing will be off with the pit
HundleyRE
won't sound like they are ahead.
Eric Lauver
Eric (2001)
Junior Drum Major '99-'00
Principal Alto Sax -- WHS Wind Ensemble
Lead Alto -- Commander's Jazz Ensemble
Bari Sax -- Williamsport Community Band
Williamsport HS "Blue" Band
Williamsport, MD
Wm. J. Albright
watches the DM they will be behind. The only time the pit should
watch the DM is when there is no sound coming from the field.
Try a simple experiment if you don't believe it. Have one snare
stand on the side line and another on the back hash (both of them on
the 50 if you like) and have the DM count them off. Have the front
snare play on 2 and the back one play on 4 (just a quarter note). I
think you will find that the rear snare will appear to sound late,
but the hands should be in time. Then reverse the experiment and
things should be fine.
Wm. J. Albright
is no sound coming from the field, other than that use the ears and
listen back.
Lee Thomas Wasson
non-pitched instruments. Otherwise, they should be listening back. The PIT
is an articulate, cutting section. If the band is even behind the front
hash, you will get front to back fazing even if the PIT and winds both are
right on with the major.....
No band or corps I've worked with has EVER made the PIT watch all the time.
LEE
CaptnItaly wrote in message
<19990828011624...@ng-fo1.aol.com>...
Drummer666
silly gomers
| | | |
(o o)
^^^
C.R.D.
DmajorCali wrote:
> The pit should always!!! look at the DM. In my band it is are job to go with
> the Drumlines feet so we are always right with the DrumLine. If the pit
> Listens back they will be behind. If the DM is not with battery then you will
> have three different sounds. Belive me I speak from experiance. The DM and the
> center snare has got to communicate all the time. I recommend to all Drum
JOHNMYSON
BUT, there are some times, when the pit should listen to the band. Sometimes,
when the band is spread out on the field, and the marchers in the back are
playing, the sound traveling won't be the same as the people in the front- esp.
pit. So even though the people in the back are playing at the same time as the
pit with the Drum major, the sound would be a little off because of the travel
of sound. It sounds really stupid, but My band got marked off because the pit
was a bit off from the low toys in the back. Hope I didn't confuse you.
-------------------------------------------------
"Man, if you have to ask, you'll never know"
Louis Armstrong when asked what jazz is
John Ready
JOHN...@aol.com
Drummer666
you spongy cooters.
| | | |
(o o)
^^^
Jeff Lee
>
> The drum major sets the tempo. The drumline keeps the tempo.
>
The drum major learns what correct tempo is by working with the drumline
who is pounded into submission by the drum staff who is obsessed with
tempo. Ideally, if the drum major is incorrect with tempo, the drumline
ignores the drum major and steam rolls the ensemble into following them.
If the drummers don't do this then the band director gets mad, blames
the pit, the pit blames the winds, the winds blame the drum line, the
drum line blames the drum major and the drum staff blames the band
director for not letting them pick the person who should have been drum major......
This is all true. Drum majors are little monkeys to be trained by pit
instructors on how to keep the horns from falling apart.
--
____________
Jeff Lee - Jumpin' Jahiva Music
Pit Director - Blue Devils
*****
Check out the BD Pit Web Site @ http://home.inreach.com/heffeca/
Jamie M. Mason
truth!!!
lol
~Jamie
In article <37CDD156...@inreach.com>, Jeff Lee
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
colin hartnett
too bad i come from a program where "the drum major is always right"
who cares if the tempo's too fast for the drum line to play their parts with
any semblance of cleanliness or rhythm?
the drum major is right! it is your job to adjust to the drum major! you
should be able to play your parts faster if you have to. who cares if you
are playing sextuplet pulse rolls and the tempo's supposed to be 81 BPM...
you should be able to play it at 150 if you had to!
and the other thing that annoys me.... you are in front of the band, but you
should be watching the drum major! forget listening back! watch watch watch!
(this is where some of the skills i learned at drum corps - mainly faking
watching the drum major but really listening back - come in handy) and even
though the drum line is 4 steps from the front side line, the winds still
listen to the drum line of course, and the drum line is listening back and
not watching the drum major, the drum major is conducting to what she hears,
and the tempo gets slower... and slower... and slower... till the drum line
can't play their parts anymore... and the winds have nothing to listen to...
and everything just goes to shit... and the drum line gets blamed for not
watching the drum major... but anyone in the drum line with any corps
experience knows when you are in front of the ensemble you listen back and
never listen forward... so they get mad at the staff for telling them to
watch and not listen back... get in a big argument with the band director...
get told the staff is always right no matter what... argue some more... get
kicked out of band... then there's not a drum line anymore.... nobody has
anything to listen to and the winds can't hold a tempo... so everything goes
to shit... and the band folds.
phew...
maybe it doesn't go that far, but most of it's true.
colin.
Jeff Lee <hef...@inreach.com> wrote in message
news:37CDD156...@inreach.com...
davetwin
front, sure, the pit can watch the DM, but only to convey a
sense of communication. Their primary role is to play with
the ensemble and so they must listen back field. They
should absolute watch the DM during isolated attack
situations or Pit solos.
Bsnplyr82
YES.... sound has to travel, then play with what you hear from farthest back.
BYE.
a
Drummer666
>instructors on how to keep the horns from falling apart.
this is wise plack.
jefflee is a fluffy owl.
| | | |
(o o)
^^^
GhighYL
I don't see how any good band director would tell the pit to watch the drum
major. Being in pit I have picked up some ways to fake watching the drum major
but listening back. Thats the best advice if your band director tells you to
watch the drum major. Also..your pit instructor will definitely tell you to
listen back. Or it just sounds stupid!!
Jon
Jeff Lee
Is that good or bad?
Drummer666
fluffy owl.
this is most hoopy
and wise.
plus your head can move fast.
see?
| | | |
(o o)
^^^
Cass EN 2003 saxer...
GhighYL <ghi...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990903033404...@ng-cs1.aol.com>...
Jonzilla99
The Pit should have their eyes on the drum major, but not be watching the DM
per se.
They should be listening back, preferabbly to the battery for tempo. If not,
many pit parts are just doubled high woodwinds anyway so there is at all most
all times on the feild someone else playing what they are(melody inst, anyway)
So listen first, watch second
Later
Jon
Jonzilla99
wondering). And the funny thing about MI is that the State Finals are held in
the Pontiac Silverdome, which, I might add, is even WORSE than the RCA Dome.
So anyway. We had State Finals and Nationals about a week apart. That was
lots of fun.
Just another little side note about playing in domes. I marched for Eastern
Michigan University(Trombone). When we played Syracuse at Syracuse. For those
who don't know Syracuse University has the Carrier Dome. This place is a dome
that is about 1/2 the size of the Silverdome. You want to talk about bad
accoustics OH MY GOD. Anyway. Gotta go
Later
Jon
Drumguy
I was playing gong at a contest and hit it 1/2 a beat off because I wasn't
watching the drum major. In my opinion everybody that is playing an instrument
should watch the drum major. This year I'm on 5th bass so I have to watch the
drum major.
Drummer666
>year
>I was playing gong at a contest and hit it 1/2 a beat off because I wasn't
>watching the drum major. In my opinion everybody that is playing an instrument
>should watch the drum major. This year I'm on 5th bass so I have to watch
>the
>drum major.
this is choon plack.
squirrels on the back
must nut with un monkey
and think hard
but pit slime cannot do it
or they will glick ahead.
silly posers.
| | | |
(o o)
^^^
Dgk9999
sometimes, you should not watch the drum major. take for instance....the pit
has the same melody as the woodwind section, and the woodwinds are on the
backside of the field-- if you watch, you will inevitably be ahead of the
woodwinds. or, if an auxillary part matches the drumline, and they are oddly
positioned in a corner of the field somewhere...
you must remember that all things are relative to your position on the field.
first you see the lightning, then you hear the thunder.....
lorianne keeney
band director
bradley central high school--
former instructor for mt. juliet indoor drumline.
GhighYL
They are in front of the band. If they play with the drum major the sound will
reach the stands before the band. And that would sound fat and gay. If you
tell your pit to watch the drum major you are just plain stupid. The pit
should listen back no matter what. People in the pit-if you are told to watch
the drum major by your director or anyone else. DO NOT LISTEN!!!! Pretend to
watch the drum major but listen back!!! I also don't see how band directors
get off telling the pit to watch the drum major if they have never been in the
pit. What do they know about pit. But never watch the drum major!!
Jon
Bob Kelly
>From: Drumguy bdru...@gvtc.com
>Date: Wed, 22 September 1999 02:59 AM EDT
>Message-id: <37E87E39...@gvtc.com>
Absolutely... always.. without fail.
BK
Bob Kelly - MAA/EMBA Music Adjucator
Brass Innovations, Inc.
Pr1ncsss
section and band watch the drum major....thier sound travels...and if your with
the drum major you(the pit) will sound off!!!!!!!
StefCheng
I think that most of the time, it's best not to watch...but there are
situations where watching will probably be best.
There's not a solution that will work in all situations.
Stefanie
Terri Everett
1. Listen backfield in full ensemble much of the time.... BUT...
pretend to watch the drum major so you don't appear to have your head
buried in the keyboard, timps, etc.
2. watch DM if you are playing alone or with a few instruments near
front sideline
3. watch DM if your pit happens to be incorporated into the field
design (and again this depends on placement, how the rest of the
ensemble is placed, etc.)
Just a few thoughts from one who has had to contend with this issue
from both sides of the sideline. There is no hard and fast rule. Your
staff should be able to tell you when to watch and when to listen back.
If you don't have someone on staff who can figure this out (and that
would be a sad thing), then use your head and ears to the best of your
ability.
Terri Everett
Nighthawks 1983-84
Troopers 1985-86, 1988
Troopers Staff 1992
Fan and Supporter 1983 'til the day I die
Eboyloove
drum major...pit should listen back to battery..especially in syncopated
notes..always better....and yeah, you fool...if you are on a battery like 5th
bass, u better watch the drum major...IDIOT
Leland J.
Terri's got it. I can't believe that this thread has gone on for this
long! I really wonder why there are so many myths out there when there
are practical solutions that have been developed and proven. You just
can't trust directors who stayed out of marching band to try to win an
orchestra job...
I've posted nearly the same thing as Terri did already, and re-posted it
a second time. Read Terri's again, and look for mine (it's msg 74 or
so, posted on August 31st, on Deja.com's listing of this thread). Read
what we both have said, and please, PLEASE, if you can prove us wrong,
TELL US. I hate to sound like an a**, but I don't think you can.
Seeya,
Leland
Railmen, Empire, ...
BTW, Terri, it sure was great to see the sunburst again!
In article <250919991139075305%teve...@austin.rr.com>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
mike...@my-deja.com
Bob,
I hate to disagree with a fellow EMBA music judge, but here I do
disagree. If the pit has a soli section, yes, watch the major. The winds
then have to also watch the major and NOT listen to the pit at all,
especially as they get farther back on the field. We are having this
problem slightly where I teach right now. We have a few spots in the
show where there are short pit features, and this early in the season
there is a slight 'hitch' when the band enters, due to the fact that
they are listening for the pulse and not watching the major. It's a hard
thing to do.
When it's a tutti section, the pit has to listen back to the players
behind them, otherwise they will end up ahead of the ensemble, even if
they are in perfect time with the major.
This problem is magnified the farther away the field musicians are from
the pit. So, bottom line is that the pit has to do both, depending on
the situation.
Mike Davis, MAA/EMBA music judge, Asst MB director, West
Windsor-Plainsboro HS, NJ
Terri Everett
<ljo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, yes, yes, YES!!!
>
> Terri's got it.
Thanks! Doesn't take an engineering degree to figure this out, ya know.
Just some common sense and a good ear. If it sounds out of time, then
you need to adjust somehow. How hard is that to figure out?
It does surprise me how many times this thread has popped up over the
years. I've been lurking and posting here since 1993, and have seen
this question several times.
> Seeya,
> Leland
> Railmen, Empire, ...
>
> BTW, Terri, it sure was great to see the sunburst again!
Yes, it was good to see it again! Go Troops!
Terri Everett
Nighthawks 1983-84
Troopers 1985-86, 1988
Troopers Staff 1992
Fan and supporter 1983 'til the day I die
Bob Kelly
>Date: Sun, 26 September 1999 08:16 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19990926201625...@ng-fo1.aol.com>
<snip>>
If you really want to know listen to a judge (take the Music Adjucator, for
>example) who would know-he judges the band; don't you think he'd know? He
>(or
>she) can tell when the band isn't together; thus they could tell if the Pit
>isn't with the rest of the band. And if you listen to the Pit people (sorry
>if
>you get offended), you're probably getting not so good advice because band
>members tend to think their right when playing, even if their wrong-I know
>from
>experience.
>
>Kat~
>Concord Marching Minutemen-2001
Kat.. you have some good points. I offered a more detailed explainationof my
comments to a student who posted a reply to my e-mail. Here it that reply taken
out of context:
.............
The experienced percussionist need not keep their eyes on a keyboard or
concentrate visually on the rudimentary execution of their hands. I find these
musicians are usually the "heart" of every pit section, and these musicians do
watch the "major" with a secondary or tertiary measure's glance. This works
well, as you stated so professionally.
However, those that keep their eyes buried in the visual execution of playing
their instrument usually end up behind the or ahead of the downbeat. Especially
when playing more complicated scores. In my experience Stef, it's these players
that initiate "phasing" because others are "keying" on them audibly, and not
taking an occasional visual que from the "major".
I appreciate your input and thank you for a well-stated and argument. It's
always fun to talk about performance issues like this with the performers
themselves. Please feel free to contact me anytime on the NG or by e-mail to
discuss other issues regarding the activity.
...................
As you have concluded, Kat.. there's no hard and fast "rule". The logical
conclusion should be it's not likely that any pit performer can afford to
totally ignore the "major" while performing.
Thanks for your input and for sharing your views. Good luck to you and your
band this season. Work hard, stay focused and above all.. have some fun!
Regards,
Majesteca
tell my sideline to start ANY song watching the drum major, but to make sure
that on the first note, they listen back field to the drummers, or whomever has
the same underlying part. Unfortunately, we get phasing side to side in the
band in some key parts, and it does throw us off. But yes, the pit SHOULD watch
the drum major, but pay more attention to whats going on back field.
Trish
Persuasion Winter Guard 98-99
Hawthorne Caballeros 98-?
1999 Pequannock Twp HS Drum Capt.
If God came down here with a box that held the meaning to life in it, I'd like
to see just two words: The Music. That would be neat . . . - Garth Brooks
Bob Kelly
>the pit. So, bottom line is that the pit has to do both, depending on
>the situation.
>
>Mike Davis, MAA/EMBA music judge, Asst MB director, West
>Windsor-Plainsboro HS, NJ
Mike,
Many threads on this topic. See some others where I expanded on my answer to
legnth.
Bottom line.. we're on the same page.
FCRnet
>Date: Mon, 27 September 1999 09:43 AM EDT
>Message-id: <7snsam$a67$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>> >Date: Wed, 22 September 1999 02:59 AM EDT
>> >Message-id: <37E87E39...@gvtc.com>
>>
>> Absolutely... always.. without fail.
>> BK
>> Brass Innovations, Inc.
>>
>
>
>I hate to disagree with a fellow EMBA music judge, but here I do
>disagree. If the pit has a soli section, yes, watch the major. The winds
>then have to also watch the major and NOT listen to the pit at all,
>especially as they get farther back on the field. We are having this
>problem slightly where I teach right now. We have a few spots in the
>show where there are short pit features, and this early in the season
>there is a slight 'hitch' when the band enters, due to the fact that
>they are listening for the pulse and not watching the major. It's a hard
>thing to do.
>
>When it's a tutti section, the pit has to listen back to the players
>behind them, otherwise they will end up ahead of the ensemble, even if
>they are in perfect time with the major.
>
>the pit. So, bottom line is that the pit has to do both, depending on
>the situation.
>
>Mike Davis, MAA/EMBA music judge, Asst MB director, West
>Windsor-Plainsboro HS, NJ
Mr.Davis,
It is obvious that you have little experience in percussion instruction when I
read your reply to Mr. Kelly's post. Which by the way was one on three where he
explained in great detail why he made the initial brief comments.
In case you missed it, here's the first one.
B. Kelly wrote:
.I haven't encountered much battery staging where tonal bass was in the "pit",
.and I believe the question was, "should the pit watch the drum major".
.My answer is still yes.... absolutely.... always.
.Now.. this isn't to say the there is no obligation for the performing
.percussion battery, (regardless of staging) to synergistically perform with
the
.brass and wind scoring. Assuming such shows inexperience, and ignoring the
.inherent sonic characteristic of percussion vs. wind instruments will develop
.phasing problems. Especially when the ensembles are staged outside the 40's.
.These problems are more apparent to the GE judges than the field judge, which
.is why percussion staff needs to review rehearsals from the stands, as well as
.on the field.
.But listen closely to this and think about it before you sound off again...
.What are the consequences of not watching the Major?
.If you're skilled on your instrument and in your Program, the answers are
.obvious.
.Bob Kelly - MAA/EMBA Music Adjucator
.Brass Innovations, Inc.
...........................................................
Mr. Davis, as a percussion major I find Mr. Kelly's commentary dead on the
mark. He also posted another even longer reply to a student, which just
impressed the hell out of me. Here it is ,just in case you missed this one as
well.
B. Kelly wrote:
.Kat.. you have some good points. I offered a more detailed explaination of my
.comments to a student who posted a reply to my e-mail. Here is that reply
taken
.out of context:
.............
.The experienced percussionist need not keep their eyes on a keyboard or
.concentrate visually on the rudimentary execution of their hands. I find these
.musicians are usually the "heart" of every pit section, and these musicians do
.watch the "major" with a secondary or tertiary measure's glance. This works
.well, as you stated so professionally.
.However, those that keep their eyes buried in the visual execution of playing
.their instrument usually end up behind the or ahead of the downbeat.
Especially
.when playing more complicated scores. In my experience Stef, it's these
players
.that initiate "phasing" because others are "keying" on them audibly, and not
.taking an occasional visual que from the "major".
.I appreciate your input and thank you for a well-stated and argument. It's
.always fun to talk about performance issues like this with the performers
.themselves. Please feel free to contact me anytime on the NG or by e-mail to
.discuss other issues regarding the activity.
...................
.As you have concluded, Kat.. there's no hard and fast "rule". The logical
.conclusion should be it's not likely that any pit performer can afford to
.totally ignore the "major" while performing.
.Thanks for your input and for sharing your views. Good luck to you and your
.band this season. Work hard, stay focused and above all.. have some fun!
.Regards,
.Bob Kelly - MAA/EMBA Music Adjucator
.Brass Innovations, Inc.
..........................................................................
.......................
Mr. Davis, I find it amazing that you could disagree with such a complete
covering of this topic by Mr. Kelly, and I will ASSUME that you just didn't
read his entire postings. I wish that all "music" judges understood percussion
half as well as he seems to..
One would hate to think that just because you and your band no longer
participates in the EMBA circuit, that you were trying to publically discredit
one of what looks to be their "best" judges,just for your own glory or ego.
I'm sure this isn't the care, Mr. Davis.
Respectfully,
Tim O.
Jimpez3537
why do we have that person waiving their hands in the air keeping it all
togeather.
mike...@my-deja.com
brassin...@aol.com (Bob Kelly) wrote:
> >This problem is magnified the farther away the field musicians are
from
> >the pit. So, bottom line is that the pit has to do both, depending on
> >the situation.
> >
> >Mike Davis, MAA/EMBA music judge, Asst MB director, West
> >Windsor-Plainsboro HS, NJ
>
> Many threads on this topic. See some others where I expanded on my
answer to
> legnth.
> Bottom line.. we're on the same page.
> Regards,
> Brass Innovations, Inc.
>
Bob,
Great. I'll read the others. Knowing you as I do I guess maybe I
misinterpreted this particular post, or didn't get a full story.
Again, best of luck this season, as always.
Mike
mike...@my-deja.com
fcr...@aol.com (FCRnet) wrote:
> >
> Mr.Davis,
> It is obvious that you have little experience in percussion
instruction when I
> read your reply to Mr. Kelly's post. Which by the way was one on three
where he
> explained in great detail why he made the initial brief comments.
>
OK. Whatever you think. Just for the record:
1) I majored in percussion
2) I've been on staff with 13 bands since 1971, at every level from
percussion 'tech' (while in college) to band director
to where I am now (see #3 below).
3) I am currently on staff at West Windsor-Plainsboro HS as Asst MB
director, an adjunct after school position.
4) I am one of the people who started EMBA, and still consider myself an
MAA/EMBA judge, even though the band I teach is not in EMBA. Through the
1994 season I probably judged close to 200 competitions.
5) I did judge this past spring, and hope to judge next spring, the
indoor percussion shows EMBA has started to run.
>
> Mr. Davis, as a percussion major I find Mr. Kelly's commentary dead on
the
> mark. He also posted another even longer reply to a student, which
just
> impressed the hell out of me.
Bob certainly knows his stuff. The one liner comment I found, and still
find, incorrect. The pit has many responsibilities and has to focus
their attention in many different areas, from watching the major at
certain times to listening back to the winds and field percussion at
others.
>
>> .As you have concluded, Kat.. there's no hard and fast "rule". The
logical
>> .conclusion should be it's not likely that any pit performer can
afford to
>> .totally ignore the "major" while performing.
>
> .......................
>
> Mr. Davis, I find it amazing that you could disagree with such a
complete
> covering of this topic by Mr. Kelly,
I didn't, and I wrote "So, bottom line is that the pit has to do both,
depending on the situation" which says much the same thing Bob later
expanded on. I was voicing a disagreement with the one-liner he wrote in
that single post.
>
> One would hate to think that just because you and your band no longer
> participates in the EMBA circuit, that you were trying to publically
discredit
> one of what looks to be their "best" judges,just for your own glory or
ego.
>
First, read the above that I wrote about my own background, esp 4) and
5).
Second, why would I EVER try and 'discredit' a judge or group of judges?
Especially a group I am still a member of! Voicing a disagreement about
a particular point is in no way an attack on him or EMBA. You are adding
A to B and coming up with Z. Bob is certainly free and capable of
replying, as it appears he did in other posts that I did not see.
Third, how does my own 'glory' or 'ego' get a boost by this? I'm just
giving my own POV on the topic of the thread, as Bob did so capably in
other posts. Just out of curiosity, did you read what I wrote? If so,
please find an area you disagree with and explain to me why you disagree
in a civil manner. Then we can have a dialogue. Making personal attacks
is certainly no way to go about having your own opinion viewed in a
positive light.
I look forward to your reply,
Bob Kelly
>Date: Mon, 27 September 1999 10:02 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19990927220257...@ng-cm1.aol.com>
<large snip>
>>This problem is magnified the farther away the field musicians are from
>>the pit. So, bottom line is that the pit has to do both, depending on
>>the situation.
>>
>>Mike Davis, MAA/EMBA music judge, Asst MB director, West
>>Windsor-Plainsboro HS, NJ
FCRnet wrote on 9/28/99
>Mr.Davis,
>It is obvious that you have little experience in percussion instruction when
>I
>read your reply to Mr. Kelly's post. Which by the way was one on three where
>he
>explained in great detail why he made the initial brief comments.
Dear FCR,
I assure you that Mr. Davis is well qualified to critique percussion. However,
it is plain to see that he did not read the entire thread where I had placed
several at-legnth posts in detailed reply to the question.
BK -9/28/99
FRC wrote further on 9/28/99:
>Mr. Davis, I find it amazing that you could disagree with such a complete
>covering of this topic by Mr. Kelly, and I will ASSUME that you just didn't
>read his entire postings. I wish that all "music" judges understood
>percussion
>half as well as he seems to..
>
>One would hate to think that just because you and your band no longer
>participates in the EMBA circuit, that you were trying to publically
>discredit
>one of what looks to be their "best" judges,just for your own glory or ego.
>
>I'm sure this isn't the care, Mr. Davis.
>Respectfully,
>Tim O.
Dear FCR,
I seriously doubt that Mr. Davis had any intention other than to discuss his
views on the topic and, it's unfair for you to assume anything but what is
obviously a difference of opinion.
Now, I'm very flattered that you found my comments valuable, but if you would
calm down and read the entire thread, you'll find that Mr. Davis (in his last
paragraph) basically agreed in summary with my position.
In regard to Mr. Davis not judging in MAA/EMBA any longer, he can not do so
because it would be a conflict of interest. And, as far as his band not
performing in the EMBA circuit goes, I recall being on a panel just last year
where his band performed in an EMBA show, (and they did quite well as I
recall).
So, let's be fair all around and not "assume" anything, or "read" anything into
this difference of views between Mr. Davis and I that simply isn't there. If
you have specific questions about Mr. Davis and his thoughts and feelings about
EMBA, why not ask him directly?
That would be the professional thing to do.
Drummer666
you have gull in your teeth
and a nasty sister.
do not watch the monkey
you will klang wrong.
bad spelr too.
| | | |
(o o)
^^^
EPharmD
Then what is the answer? How can i improve the phasing between the pit and the
battery when the battery is in the back? HELP
S. Fla Percussion instructor
Tim Mena
battery playing) should watch the drum major. If there is wind and battery
they should listen. I know many people now want their band to sound like a
wind ensemble on the field but if you have a passage played by say the
trumpets who are moving from the back hash to the front hash and the passage
is doubled by keyboard then explain to me how they can be together if they
are both watching? The pit must be trained from the first day who is
playing what and who they should be listening to at all times. At 120bpm
there is almost an entire eighth note delay from the back sideline to the
front sideline. This is physics. Sound doesn't travel as fast as the
players see the hands. So the answer?
The drum major conducts the section farthest back who is playing and
everyone else listens. So the major doesn't drag down he/she has to watch
feet because the major CAN NOT LISTEN!!!!!!!!!!! If the drum major listens,
then he/she is conducting to what has already been played. Check it out,
have a snare drummer on the back side and one on the front side and let the
major count them both off (silent I hate when I see huge bands drum majors
count them off out loud) and make sure they are with the hands and make your
own judgement.
My 2 cents.....
Tim Mena
Cadets 1996
EPharmD wrote in message <19990928163521...@ng-da1.aol.com>...
Tim Mena
MAJOR! If they are playing a section with no wind or battery they should
watch. Sorry about the confusion.
Tim Mena wrote in message <7sreb5$9pd$1...@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
Mike Davis
>Mr Davis and Mr Kelly,
>Then what is the answer? How can i improve the phasing between the pit and the
>battery when the battery is in the back? HELP
>
>S. Fla Percussion instructor
Well, as I said, to me it depends on the situation, esp where the rest
of the sound is coming from. Tim hit it just right. If the band is
spread out and goes way back past the hash, the only way the pit will
remain in time is to listen back. We've been working on just that
where I teach, to elimanate the littel 'hitch' you often hear between
the back and front.
On the other hand, if it's a pit feature, or the band is up tight near
the sideline then watch the major.
Just MHO on the matter, but it's working out pretty well for us.
Mike
Mr. Tuba©
Our drum majors should have counted of our show silently my junior year...two in
the back of the field, one in the front, all three counting off (the band was
facing the back sideline, btw.) You hear on the contest tape "markMARK timeTIME
markMARK..!!!" ...hehe
--
Mr. Tuba©
SWTexan
http://www.lcmband.com
"Stupidity should be painful"
Mr. Tuba©
> why do we have that person waiving their hands in the air keeping it all
> togeather.
Why we have that person waiving their hands in the air:
- Visual stimulus...yes, people like to see that cool dude/dudette up front.
- If the band (including percussion) falls apart...everyone will probably look
up to the front in confusion and see that one person.
Of course, it is my personal opinion, but I feel the drumline is the keeper of
time...unless they're not playing...then you NEED the drum major.
But I hate to break it to ya, but the drum major is probably not the one "keeping
it all together". Think about the speed of sound...unless your drill is kept
within the 35 yard lines and in front of the front hash, you will have sound lag.
What does that leave the pit to do? Listen...listen to the instruments on the
field...because once their sound hits the pit, then all the sounds will be going to
the crowd at the same time.
JEGCHSJAZZ
watching the drum major. At BOA Grand National last year during our prelims
show our mallet players up in the pit weren't watching at all during the
opener...they rushed terribly for 2 or 3 bars and it sounded pretty bad. All
because they weren't watching. We almost had a train wreck during the show cuz
it caused a lot of confusion. Just my opinion on all this :)
Janet
Centerville Jazz
Clarinet Squad Leader
c/o 2000
Bob Kelly
>Date: Wed, 29 September 1999 02:04 AM EDT
>Message-id: <37f1ab12...@news.njcc.com>
-------------------------------------
I think between Tim, Mike and my previous posts, we are of the same opinion.
Totally ignoring the major throughout a marching band program isn't good or
effective, regardless of where the wind ensembles and percussion batteries are
staged. Some who focus on Drum Corp performance would have you think that this
is what you should do, but our experience on the fieldwith marching bands tells
us differently.
You can't equate the effective performance techniques of a drum corps to a
marching band. You can share successful concepts, but these are still two
different animals. That's an argument for another day.
To watch or not to watch….this is a subjective call of the staff and director,
and primarily one of proven effectiveness. If keeping your pit's eyes glued to
the instrument is effective, why fight success? But in a complex program, I
have yet to see an effective and accurate "pit" performance where the major was
not looked at every few measures or so, by the members of the pit.
I HAVE seen many performances where the pit was a total train wreck in terms of
rhythmic coordination and became the major cause of phasing and meter problems
in the program. This was because the only two times the pit watched the major
was on the initial "horns up" command and on the last release of the program.
EPharmD
1. Pit to watch when playing alone, or starting the show
2. Listen back during syncopated percussion parts with the battery (like in
Cavies '89 percussion solo)
any q's or comments:
Leland J.
brassin...@aol.com (Bob Kelly) wrote:
> You can't equate the effective performance techniques of a drum corps to a
> marching band. You can share successful concepts, but these are still two
> different animals. That's an argument for another day.
OK, so, musically speaking, there is a collection of marching wind
players, a section of marching persussionists, and some players with
various kinds of percussion grounded on the sideline. Tell me what
genre I've just described -- marching band or drum corps? I don't
understand what differences you're referring to.
Here -- READ THIS. This is something I posted nearly a month ago, and
I'm still waiting to be proven wrong. I really want to be proven that
I'm wrong, because this is what I've learned and what I would be
teaching, and I don't want to get things messed up.
Thanks.
Leland
My old post follows:
>
> I posted a response to this whole thing, but due to some stupid Deja-
> News bug, this thread is getting cross-posted to several different
> forums. I want to know if I'm wrong at all, so I'm also going to do
> some cross-posting. Here's what I wrote, including quotes from the
> person I was responding to --
>
> >If the WHOLE band watches and plays with the
> > DM, then they should all be playing together, without having to worry about
> > phasing (at least in theory-- I have seen/heard otherwise).........
>
> The Clue Phone is ringing! Maybe you've already noticed that if
> everybody watches all the time, there WILL be phasing.
> Because:
>
> > and I
> > don't really "buy" the "pit-is-in-front-so-sound-is-heard-sooner" thing......
> > sound travels at the same speed, true, but over the width of a football field--
> > there's not really going to be an audible difference because it's so fast......
> >
>
> Sound travels at the same speed, and that speed is thousands of times
> slower than the speed of light. Why bother talking about the speed of
> light? Because that's how fast we all see the DM's hands.. duh...
>
> Next time you're on the field, notice how far behind a drum's sound is
> from when you see the stick hit the head. Once you get your ears tuned
> well enough, you'll notice a difference before the drummer gets farther
> away than the front hash.
>
> OR, watch someone dribbling a basketball down the block, and you'll hear
> the bounce while the ball is coming up from the ground. I remember
> noticing that back in 2nd grade.
>
> The most out-of-phase pit I've ever seen was one that watched the DM
> "like a hawk" for the enitre show -- the pit was ALWAYS ahead of the
> rest of the corps. I was embarrassed that these kids were being told
> that this was correct, and I was never even involved with that corps!
>
> The pit should ALWAYS listen back, EXCEPT:
> -- a pit-only entrance, then they should watch, and if necessary, have
> some means of making sure they're together before the first note.
> -- a release, such as the cutoff of a loud sustained chord in a ballad,
> and the pit's playing a cymbal roll or something; the pit can't hear
> the horns release, so they need to watch the DM for that.
> -- if the pit's placed back on the field, and the rest of the band/corps
> is alongside or in front; then the pit should behave like a battery,
> watching or anticipating as needed. A timekeeping part (such as a
> hihat) would do wonders for keeping the pitsters together.
> -- many times, when several pitsters are playing a unison smash of some
> kind, it's best for them to watch each other and/or watch one pitster
> who's keeping time, either by listening or watching back, or watching
> the DM.
> -- many other tricks that are best devised and implemented on a case-by-
> case basis.
>
> Basically, if there is ever an audible cue from the field, the pit --
> and everyone in front of that cue -- should listen to it. If not, other
> things need to be used, and the transition back to the on-field pulse
> will need to be rehearsed many times.
>
> Seeya,
> Leland
Christopher Koss
"Leland J." wrote:
> > The pit should ALWAYS listen back, EXCEPT:
> > -- a pit-only entrance, then they should watch, and if necessary, have
> > some means of making sure they're together before the first note.
> > -- a release, such as the cutoff of a loud sustained chord in a ballad,
> > and the pit's playing a cymbal roll or something; the pit can't hear
> > the horns release, so they need to watch the DM for that.
> > -- if the pit's placed back on the field, and the rest of the band/corps
> > is alongside or in front; then the pit should behave like a battery,
> > watching or anticipating as needed. A timekeeping part (such as a
> > hihat) would do wonders for keeping the pitsters together.
> > -- many times, when several pitsters are playing a unison smash of some
> > kind, it's best for them to watch each other and/or watch one pitster
> > who's keeping time, either by listening or watching back, or watching
> > the DM.
> > -- many other tricks that are best devised and implemented on a case-by-
> > case basis.
> >
> > Basically, if there is ever an audible cue from the field, the pit --
> > and everyone in front of that cue -- should listen to it. If not, other
> > things need to be used, and the transition back to the on-field pulse
> > will need to be rehearsed many times.
> >
> > Seeya,
> > Leland
>
>
Leland,
In my opinion, your advice is right on. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Christopher Koss
Magic of Orlando Front Ensemble 1997-1998
West Orange High School Pit Arranger/Instructor
Ridgeview High School Pit Arranger/Instructor
East Carteret Marching Instructor
StntBike84
will rush or not be on time.
James3:5 Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great
boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 3:6 The
tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts
the whole person
Bob Kelly
>Date: Thu, 30 September 1999 12:45 AM EDT
>Message-id: <7supsi$9si$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>In article <19990929074249...@ng-fj1.aol.com>,
> brassin...@aol.com (Bob Kelly) wrote:
>> You can't equate the effective performance techniques of a drum corps to a
>> marching band. You can share successful concepts, but these are still two
>> different animals. That's an argument for another day.
Leland wrote
>OK, so, musically speaking, there is a collection of marching wind
>players, a section of marching persussionists, and some players with
>various kinds of percussion grounded on the sideline. Tell me what
>genre I've just described -- marching band or drum corps? I don't
>understand what differences you're referring to.
>
Leland,
The differences between marching band and drum corps in terms of
instrumentation are obvious to even the novice.
Acuity, sonority, projection, timbre and sonic projection impact musical
effectiveness. If one knows the difference between a LeBlanc Clarinet and a
Kanstul Soprano, one simply can't conclude that musical arrangement and
management of musical effectiveness in a marching band vs. that of a drum corps
can be debated as "equal". They simply are not. So, let's just keep this
debate to watching the major.. shall we?
To my last point, and my last reply on this thread... you need to study more
about the characteristic of sound travel, and you'll answer your own questions
in terms of how phasing occurs.
In simple terms... if you drive 70 miles per hour in a straight line from goal
line to goal line, and I drive 70 miles an hour from the 20 yard line to the
same goal, ... who's getting there first?
Think about the staging of a program... the sonic differences and limits of
each individual instrument ( IE a trumpet "projects.. and a snare drum diffuses
), and then tell me there's no issue to consider here.
Drummer666
you should
never watch.
eat a smoky turd now.
| | | |
(o o)
^^^
Lily
>will rush or not be on time.<BR>
That is, if they are not listening either.
Leland J.
> Leland wrote
> >OK, so, musically speaking, there is a collection of marching wind
> >players, a section of marching persussionists, and some players with
> >various kinds of percussion grounded on the sideline. Tell me what
> >genre I've just described -- marching band or drum corps? I don't
> >understand what differences you're referring to.
> >
>
> Leland,
> The differences between marching band and drum corps in terms of
> instrumentation are obvious to even the novice.
No kidding. But, tell me what the differences can possibly be. Here
are some players who make noises on instruments and also move around in
a staging area that happens to be big enough to present contantly-
changing locations of the tempo pulse (sure, a big symphony orchestra
has to deal with similar problems, but nobody's marching around on
stage).
> Acuity, sonority, projection, timbre and sonic projection impact musical
> effectiveness.
Why do tuba players always seems to be behind? They weren't told to
play any earlier by the instructor/conductor/whatever. One could argue
that the instrument is to blame, being so long and slow to respond, but
the truth is, it's the player's responsibility to play it in time, and
the instructor's responsibility to tell the player exactly where in time
to play. Everything can be corrected, and you don't need to construct
an excuse for the problem.
> To my last point, and my last reply on this thread... you need to study more
> about the characteristic of sound travel, and you'll answer your own questions
> in terms of how phasing occurs.
Sound travels slower than light.
If everybody watches the hands, then the people in front will be ahead
of everybody else, whether they're pit players or the trumpet line. Our
college band is a big fat phase-fest because everybody's trying to watch
the DMs (three of them!). When they're trying to read music, they
actually tend to stay together better because they're listening to
what's coming from behind.
>
> In simple terms... if you drive 70 miles per hour in a straight line from goal
> line to goal line, and I drive 70 miles an hour from the 20 yard line to the
> same goal, ... who's getting there first?
Exactly! If you could accelerate to 70 MPH instantaneously, and started
when I got to the 20, we'd both get there at the same time. It's the
same thing with sound. You just now agreed with me. Read what I wrote.
> Think about the staging of a program... the sonic differences and limits of
> each individual instrument ( IE a trumpet "projects.. and a snare drum diffuses
> ), and then tell me there's no issue to consider here.
The issue is that, by listening back, the players correct for those
sonic differences, and they don't even know it. They're just playing in
time with what they hear. Sound travels at the same speed once it's
produced. The players don't care how it was produced or whatever delays
were involved in that production.
It also takes an instructor who can hear these time problems and can
specify who needs to correct and how. I swear that our current college
director has no idea why he's hearing what he's hearing, or maybe he
figures that if each section is playing together, everything must be OK.
Whatever -- even though he's got a doctorate, the band sounds like crap.
A piece of paper on his wall does not guarantee knowledge.
I will note one widely visible painful instance where everybody should
have been watching the DM, and that was Phantom '88 in the clip shown
during the broadcast. The opening shot between the drumline and the pit
bass came out as a really wide flam ("BaGOCK!!"). What happened? The
DM severely dragged the downbeat -- the drumline, who was watching, hit
right on the "new" downbeat -- and the pit bass hit on the now-lost
downbeat that would have been correct if the DM had kept his tempo
straight.
The rule for the marching members is simple: "Listen back, and if no
one's behind you, watch the DM as if your life depended on it." The
rules for the pit are a little more complex: "Listen back for the
battery, but if they're not playing, then Bobby on the hihat should
watch them, or Lisa on the timps should listen to the contras, ..."
Basically, what I had posted apparently comes pretty darn close.
XvDrEaMzvX
- that's why there's no telling what you have to do...it changes on the fly and
you have to go with what you hear behind you and sometimes watch the major...
~JC~
le...@rocketmail.com
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
alicia welch
University of North Texas
Carolina Crown
Majesteca
Tell me about it. The pit, for the first time this week, played with the band
while the band did the drill for our closer (which will be unleashed at next
weeks USSBA regional). The band plays backfield for most of the song. Now, our
field doesn't have a bad echo, but it's hard enough for us to listen back and
play as it is, and now we have to worry about echos. Today during our pep
rally, with the band directly behind us in the gym, we were off slightly. All
in all, there are times when the sideline SHOULD watch the drum major, like
sideline and drum features and for the down beats, cut offs, and tempo changes,
and other times when its best just to listen back, like when the band is
playing back field.
Trish
Persuasion Winter Guard 98-99
Hawthorne Caballeros 98-?
1999 Pequannock Twp HS Drum Capt.
If God came down here with a box that held the meaning to life in it, I'd like
to see just two words: The Music. That would be neat . . . - Garth Brooks
colin hartnett
colin.
JEGCHSJAZZ <jegch...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990929064532...@ng-cm1.aol.com...
DeTray
band a DM isn't up there as a visual point, at least not in competition
bands. Yes alot of audience members are going to find a lot of joy in
watching a flashy leader, but thats not their job and therefore, in my
opinion, not a very important thing. On your second point, which again is
correct, I simply wish to say that shouldn't happen. The band shouldn't look
up in confusion when things fall apart. They should have already been
watching. Not watching is the reason most bands fall apart. So altho I agree
that does happen, it really shouldn't.
From that point on I agree unwaveringly. My only question, directed at
anyone who can answer, is this. Is it possible that the sound of the pit
could be coming from a near enough point to the field that the distance
doesn't come that greatly into play? To take things to the extreme, here is
an example. The distance from someone on the back of the field to someone
towards the front is greater than that between the front and the pit. From
that standpoint, you could say that only the people at the farthest reaches
of the field should watch and all others should listen to them. I know
that's taking it a little far but it's the best example I had. If anyone can
make sense of that, please respond.
Tray
Mr. Tuba© <mrt...@geocities.com> wrote in message
news:37F1CD16...@geocities.com...
WoodStok82
front). They should listen back to the band at all times and especially to the
drumline. I agree there are a FEW exceptions to this rule, long rests with
little occuring rhythmically in the band, pit solos, if you're outside the
forty and for releases at the end of a show if you are rolling on cymbals. I
imagine there are a few more situations, but not many. If a pit has timing
issues, they need time, in sectionals in front of a metronome! This will allow
muscle memory to set in. A good pit should be able to come very close to
reproducing all the tempos in a show on there own, (like a field commander
could). At one point in the show, there is an instant jump accelerando, the pit
has a run right at that point, and the pit doesn't watch, the drum major grabs
the tempo from us, these past few weeks we've been within one or two beats of
the tempo, and very clean (For late september, early october). So can the band
ever listen to the pit? Well, I'd have to say no. First of all, in any group
who plans to play in an echo, teaching people to listen forward is going to be
VERY dangerous. Secondly, the band will phase even within that small distance.
Ask any indoor drumline. But that's just what four years has taught me on the
subject.
Bill Patterson
Section Leader, Westerville North pit 98, 99
Capital Regiment Indoor Drumline '98
Trinity Percussion Ensemble '99
Majesteca
The problem with this is that the sound willg et to them later, and then you'll
REALLY get phasing up top.
colin hartnett
today i saw a band who had their pit between the 30 and 40 yard lines on
side 2 near the back hash....
and they had a drill move where the entire band was outside of the 40 on
side 1....
you wanna talk about phasing... holy crap.
colin.
Majesteca <maje...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991003153146...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
Hadam16
right on the 50, the rest of the pit listens and watches his hands (we have him
keep tempo with his stick when not playing).
Bob Kelly
>Date: Sun, 03 October 1999 10:54 AM EDT
>Message-id: <19991003105453...@ng-cj1.aol.com>
>First of all, the pit should almost never watch (assuming they are in the
>front).
<snip>
>Ask any indoor drumline
I think this will qualify your reply well.
Bob Kelly
>Date: Thu, 30 September 1999 12:39 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19990930123929...@ng-bg1.aol.com>
Good reply for a "drummer". A percussionist however, would have thought a
little deeper and maybe even used english to express his opinion.
Lily
>>front).
><snip>
>>Ask any indoor drumline
What does indoor drumline have to do with it? The situation from field to
indoor is very different for a pitster.
EPharmD
quietly, thank you.