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Jacob Munkhammar

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Apr 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/30/99
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CAVE will have a system for generating location descriptions (and other
messages) using the directions left, right, forward and back, as well as
navigating in those directions and referencing objects, depending on from
what direction the player's character entered the room.

There are two issues here that currently bugs me.

Firstly, I cannot decide if (or when) the directions should change while
the character is in the same location.
Let's say you enter a room and get the description, "You are in a room, to
the right is a door, and a corridor leads away behind you."
Should 'EXAMINE THE DOOR' make the character turn right? (Giving "You are
in a room, in front of you is a door, and a corridor leads away to the
right." at the next 'LOOK')
And how about 'GO RIGHT', giving "You try to open the door, but it is
locked." Will the player then have turned?

Generally, I think the directions should stay static while in the same
room. For a very few actions, however, I am unsure whether this can be a
bit confusing.
I can, of course, add a report when a turn is performed, like: "You turn
right and try to open the door, but it is locked."
While in the same room, is always keeping the directions constant, or
sometimes changing them, the best option?
(Note: If the directions are changing, one may have to 'LOOK' before
navigating.)

I have no plans to supply 'TURN LEFT' or 'TURN RIGHT' verbs - in version
1, anyway. (It really has no function, except as cosmetics, at this time.)

The other thing is that I would like to include the directions southeast,
southwest, northwest and northeast in this mechanism. (It only works for
the 4 basic directions as of now.) But how are the direction between left
and forward, between right and back, a.s.o., to be described. Any creative
suggestions?


/Jacob

--
Jacob Munkhammar -- utan Microsoft-certifikat
http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~jacob/
PowerMac 4400, Mac LC, Mac Plus, ZX Spectrum, HP 41CV

Erik Max Francis

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Apr 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/30/99
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Jacob Munkhammar wrote:

> CAVE will have a system for generating location descriptions (and
> other
> messages) using the directions left, right, forward and back, as well
> as
> navigating in those directions and referencing objects, depending on
> from
> what direction the player's character entered the room.

That sounds awful.

> Firstly, I cannot decide if (or when) the directions should change
> while
> the character is in the same location.

That sounds _really_ awful.

> Generally, I think the directions should stay static while in the same
> room. For a very few actions, however, I am unsure whether this can be
> a
> bit confusing.

What is the goal of giving relative directions in the first place?

--
Erik Max Francis / email m...@alcyone.com / whois mf303 / icq 16063900
Alcyone Systems / irc maxxon (efnet) / finger m...@members.alcyone.com
San Jose, CA / languages En, Eo / web http://www.alcyone.com/max/
USA / icbm 37 20 07 N 121 53 38 W / &tSftDotIotE
\
/ But since when can wounded eyes see
/ Joi

Jacob Munkhammar

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May 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/1/99
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In article <372A1C54...@alcyone.com>, Erik Max Francis
<m...@alcyone.com> wrote:

> What is the goal of giving relative directions in the first place?


Well, the whole idea is motivated by two things.

Firstly, because of the (in this group sometimes impopular) notion of
"realism". When I walk about in the real world, especially in-doors, I
have no idea about compass directions.

Secondly, I prefer to test games and i-f that I make on inexperienced
players - that is, players without preconceptions about how i-f "should"
be controlled.
Very often this "class" of players actually get *confused* by compass
directions. Like me, when they walk around the real world, they walk
forward and turn left and right, and it is closer linked to their
subconcious (mental maps) what happens when they walk left and right,
partly because they don't need to keep track of compass direction, but
only have to "live" with the descriptions and their more real-life
actions.

Actually, I think a world described solely through relative directions
will be a more "direct" experience, in that it is less "map like". I think
you will be - and move - more "there".

Inexperienced players also demand a more flexible and more natural
language input - one less "command line"-like - while experienced players
often prefer the command line approach, like ">x object". Thus my problem
to find good ways of refering to the "half-way" directions in relative
terms. (Of course, I will provide user control suitable for both these
types of users.)

Directions like 'CORRIDOR' a.s.o. may of course be used, but that is
really independent of relative directions. (There are already basic
mechanisms for doing this in CAVE without any programming, but I may in
the future formalize this even further.)

Also, a major goal with CAVE is to make the resulting output as prose-like
as possible, and as far from a game status report as possible. The goal is
that the reader should live the game as he lives the story of a book, only
with more control. (That is why I keep command line and things like
command errors *outside* of the story, and keep the prose window - as I
prefer to call it - for what is happening in the virtual world only.)
For this reason also, having a status line with exits, is not an approach
I am currently planning to take.

Think less game status report and more interactive prose to understand the
idea behind CAVE. Or rather, as I've formulated it here before: CAVE is
about "the experience of virtual worlds through prose".

Having said that, it is perfectly possible to design a game with only
compass directions with CAVE. I just want to provide a feature that I feel
is a more natural approach to interactive fiction, to those authors who
want to make use of it.

Of course, I appreciate both arguments for and against, but in this case
there is no need to argue against. I have decided to implement it, one
need not use it, but for those who want it, I want to make available the
best possible sollution in my power. :-)

Mike Roberts

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May 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/1/99
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Jacob Munkhammar wrote in message ...

>In article <372A1C54...@alcyone.com>, Erik Max Francis
><m...@alcyone.com> wrote:
>> What is the goal of giving relative directions in the first place?
>Firstly, because of the (in this group sometimes impopular) notion of
>"realism".

I wouldn't dream of speaking for the group at large, but I think it is a
slight misconception that realism is in and of itself unpopular. For my own
part, I've nothing against realism, but I place a higher value on other,
sometimes conflicting, elements of game design. Making the basic mechanics
of the game easy and transparent for the player is much more important to me
than realism, and I have no qualms about sacrificing realism when it would
be at the expense of transparency.

>Secondly, I prefer to test games and i-f that I make on inexperienced
>players - that is, players without preconceptions about how i-f "should"
>be controlled.

That's worthwhile, but ultimately any game will have a set of conventions
that players must learn. It's straightforward to explain to a new player
the typical convention (compass directions), and I don't doubt it would be
straightforward to explain a relative system. But you will have to explain
it; no one's real-world intuition is going to apply perfectly to any
computer simulation short of fully-immersive VR.

--Mike


Jacob Munkhammar

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May 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/2/99
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In article <sxKW2.511$ny.1...@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>, "Mike Roberts"
<mjr-S...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Jacob Munkhammar wrote in message ...
> >In article <372A1C54...@alcyone.com>, Erik Max Francis
> ><m...@alcyone.com> wrote:
> >> What is the goal of giving relative directions in the first place?
> >Firstly, because of the (in this group sometimes impopular) notion of
> >"realism".
>
> I wouldn't dream of speaking for the group at large, but I think it is a
> slight misconception that realism is in and of itself unpopular. For my own
> part, I've nothing against realism, but I place a higher value on other,
> sometimes conflicting, elements of game design. Making the basic mechanics
> of the game easy and transparent for the player is much more important to me
> than realism, and I have no qualms about sacrificing realism when it would
> be at the expense of transparency.
>

OK, I could have skipped that comment. But I *did* use the word "sometimes". ;)
I am not always a fan of realism in fiction myself. Anyway, it's not important.

I only agree in part that the mechanisms of the game should be obvious to
the player.
Of course, the commands for controlling the game or piece of interactive
fiction should be self-evident, but if this has to be at the expence of
the story told by the game (like being forced to use "game technical"
references in the text), then we are captured by the technology.


> >Secondly, I prefer to test games and i-f that I make on inexperienced
> >players - that is, players without preconceptions about how i-f "should"
> >be controlled.
>
> That's worthwhile, but ultimately any game will have a set of conventions
> that players must learn. It's straightforward to explain to a new player
> the typical convention (compass directions), and I don't doubt it would be
> straightforward to explain a relative system. But you will have to explain
> it; no one's real-world intuition is going to apply perfectly to any
> computer simulation short of fully-immersive VR.
>

Yes, I know, but when I find that a lot of people get confused by a
concept, I try to find a way to do it in another, hopefully less
confusing, way.

Anyway, I have never really liked the north/south way of navigating
myself. Not because it isn't practical, but just because it doesn't relate
to life and to "being there". Perhaps I don't like it because it is *too*
practical? Or should I say technical?
This, of course, is my subjective view and there are a lot of systems and
authors (and gamers) that prefer it the established way (which admittedly
is - to some extent - result of an evolution, but also of convention).
There are just things about some of the established ways of doing it that
aren't as I like them. Therefore I make a system that does it in a way
that I feel is more satisfactory. And I will release it to the public in
case there are others who feel the same.
Those who don't agree with me have a number of other systems to chose
from, or don't have to use these features of CAVE.

I want to get away from the more board game-ish and role playing map-ish,
and - when you think about it - technical, way of interacting with
interactive fiction, and get closer to the book experience.
I know, these are just words, and we will see how close CAVE will get. In time.

Remember, much of the ways computers do things is because it is easier for
the computer - and we have gotten used to it. And we are very fond of our
habits, aren't we? ;)

/Jacob

Fred M. Sloniker

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May 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/2/99
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On Sun, 02 May 1999 04:56:02 +0200, ja...@stud.ntnu.no (Jacob
Munkhammar) wrote:

>Anyway, I have never really liked the north/south way of navigating
>myself. Not because it isn't practical, but just because it doesn't relate
>to life and to "being there". Perhaps I don't like it because it is *too*
>practical? Or should I say technical?

Something you might want to consider, instead of having the player
doing rotations and translations (turn left, go right) (unless you
*want* to code a Doom/Tomb Raider IF) would be Nord and Bert's
movement conventions: exits named after the destinations. That is, if
you're in (just for instance) my TV room, there are four exits: up the
stairs to the front room, east through a door to the back yard,
southwest through a doorway to the laundry room, and south into a
hall. Suppose you're facing north. Do you really want to type TURN
LEFT 145 DEGREES then GO FORWARD? SW is a lot easier, but you're
trying to avoid that. So, type LAUNDRY ROOM, or, if you're a stickler
for grammatical correctness, ENTER LAUNDRY ROOM.

You'd have to list the exits, of course, preferably in two forms:
seamlessly integrated into your room description, and in a simple list
to be displayed on the status line or by typing, say, EXITS. If the
character doesn't know where an exit leads, you'd describe it by what
they can tell about it: OAK DOOR, ACCESS PORT, DEEPER WOODS, what have
you. If the exit is secret, it wouldn't appear in the list until
discovered.

So what do you think?


William Adderholdt

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May 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/2/99
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In article <jacob-30049...@ti29a96-0172.dialup.online.no>,

Jacob Munkhammar <ja...@stud.ntnu.no> wrote:
>CAVE will have a system for generating location descriptions (and other
>messages) using the directions left, right, forward and back, as well as
>navigating in those directions and referencing objects, depending on from
>what direction the player's character entered the room.
[snip]

You might like to know (if you don't already) that there are games with
this kind of interface already out there. The one I remember off the top
of my head is "Battlestar," written in 1979, which comes with the BSD-games
package. Here's a quote from the man page:

DIRECTIONS
The compass directions N, S, E, and W can be used if you have a compass.
If you don't have a compass, you'll have to say R, L, A, or B, which
stand for Right, Left, Ahead, and Back. Directions printed in room de-
scriptions are always printed in R, L, A, & B relative directions.

It's really strange the first time you play it, but after a while it
becomes perfectly natural.

Here's a short transcript. Notice how the relative positions change as you
walk around:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a luxurious stateroom.
The floor is carpeted with a soft animal fur and the great wooden furniture
is inlaid with strips of platinum and gold. Electronic equipment built
into the walls and ceiling is flashing wildly. The floor shudders and
the sounds of dull explosions rumble though the room. From a window in
the wall ahead comes a view of darkest space. There is a small adjoining
room behind you, and a doorway right.

>-: right

These are the executive suites of the battlestar.
Luxurious staterooms carpeted with crushed velvet and adorned with beaten
gold open onto this parlor. A wide staircase with ivory banisters leads
up or down. This parlor leads into a hallway left. The bridal suite is right.
Other rooms lie ahead and behind you.

>-: back

This is a luxurious stateroom.
The floor is carpeted with a soft animal fur and the great wooden furniture
is inlaid with strips of platinum and gold. Electronic equipment built
into the walls and ceiling is flashing wildly. The floor shudders and
the sounds of dull explosions rumble though the room. From a window in
the wall right comes a view of darkest space. There is a small adjoining
room left, and a doorway behind you.

>-:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

My one complaint would be that if you type "l," it automatically assumes
you mean "go left" instead of "look." It's very hard to get out of that
habit.

William Adderholdt

Jacob Munkhammar

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May 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/2/99
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I think the "exit names" and "relative directions" are two different
issues - even though they, of course, do interact.
I do support exit names in CAVE today - both by refering to name of
connecting location ("kitchen") and by refering to name of connection
("oak door").

My main interest for relative directions is not in the "facing" aspect as
such, but in the "relativity" aspect. That is to say, I want to describe
the room depending on the way the person entered it, rather that making -
as you so aptly put it - a text based Tomb Raider.

Of course, this can in the future be extended to have significance in
combat systems and such, but this is not currently an issue.

The discussion about facing and turning is intersting.
My original idea was only to use relative directions in the descriptions -
and following from that - provide vocabulary words to refer to them.
Facing in a certain direction has no practical consequence, other than in
the choice of words.
If it is confusing to have relative directions in the descriptions (and in
navigating) without being able to turn (and change faced direction), then
I will have to take that into consideration.

And, no, I do not want the player to have to type 'TURN LEFT 145 DEGREES'
and then 'GO FORWARD'. That is my problem; how do I relate to these
halfway directions in relative terms?

Of course, I can select to only support the four main compas direction in
the relative system, so that any author who wants to use this feature will
have to skip SW and its kin. That would be a pity though, and I hope to
find a sollution.

/Jacob

--
Jacob Munkhammar -- utan/without Microsoft-certifikat
http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~jacob/
CPU: PowerMac 4400, Mac LC, Mac Plus, ZX Spectrum, HP 41CV
OS: MacOS 8.5, 7.0, 6.0, BeOS, MkLinux & (ehrm) Windows95

okbl...@my-dejanews.com

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May 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/3/99
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In article <jacob-30049...@ti29a96-0172.dialup.online.no>,

ja...@stud.ntnu.no (Jacob Munkhammar) wrote:
> CAVE will have a system for generating location descriptions (and other
> messages) using the directions left, right, forward and back, as well as
> navigating in those directions and referencing objects, depending on from
> what direction the player's character entered the room.

OK. Optional, of course, because some authors may wish to present the room
differently based on what way the player is facing. When you start presume a
genuine (movable) point of view, you add a massive degree of depth (and
complexity) for the author who wants what the player reads to reflect that.

> Firstly, I cannot decide if (or when) the directions should change while
> the character is in the same location.

> Let's say you enter a room and get the description, "You are in a room, to
> the right is a door, and a corridor leads away behind you."
> Should 'EXAMINE THE DOOR' make the character turn right? (Giving "You are
> in a room, in front of you is a door, and a corridor leads away to the
> right." at the next 'LOOK')
> And how about 'GO RIGHT', giving "You try to open the door, but it is
> locked." Will the player then have turned?

I should think so.

> Generally, I think the directions should stay static while in the same
> room. For a very few actions, however, I am unsure whether this can be a
> bit confusing.

Yes, it probably will be. With the added complexity meaning that most authors
will ignore the option.

> I can, of course, add a report when a turn is performed, like: "You turn
> right and try to open the door, but it is locked."
> While in the same room, is always keeping the directions constant, or
> sometimes changing them, the best option?

I don't think you can determine that absolutely. That is, one who wishes to
use this system is going to have to make this decision for himself.

> I have no plans to supply 'TURN LEFT' or 'TURN RIGHT' verbs - in version
> 1, anyway. (It really has no function, except as cosmetics, at this time.)

But the cosmetics will be important. Much of IF is based on observation.
Which way the player is facing in a room could (as in real life) dramatically
affect his perception of the room.

> The other thing is that I would like to include the directions southeast,
> southwest, northwest and northeast in this mechanism. (It only works for
> the 4 basic directions as of now.) But how are the direction between left
> and forward, between right and back, a.s.o., to be described. Any creative
> suggestions?

I suggest that your basic premise is flawed, i.e., that people think in terms
of left and right. Yes, they're more likely to think in terms of left and
right than they are to think in cardinal directions, but I don't, for example
get to my kitchen by: leaving my bedroom by the door on the left, following
the hallway until it turns right, navigating the corner into the dining area
and going straight through the doorway. I simply go to the kitchen.

And it's very unnatural for me to think in terms of left and right, and even
*difficult* to do so the less familiar I am with where I'm going. I keep an
internal map, and I often don't know until I get there which way I'm going to
turn.

This is not meant to discourage you, as there are doubtless many very
interesting things that could be done using a system like this (judiciously)
as well as many awful things.

I'd like to see directions move more toward this kind of realism: If I've been
there before, I can get there again without having to retrace my steps.
Exceptions for tricky areas can be made, but navigating over terrain with
nothing new to add to the experience makes for one of the more frustrating IF
experiences.

Not only that, in an area that is not especially tricky, I can get to a place
I know exists =without= ever having been there before simply by gauging
relative distance and position. My feeling is don't force the player to stop
in a room that doesn't impact the game.

Let's just say I've been in too many N/S passages. :-)
--
[ok]

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http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

Irene Callaci

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May 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/3/99
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On Mon, 03 May 1999 22:55:22 GMT, okbl...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

>In article <jacob-30049...@ti29a96-0172.dialup.online.no>,
> ja...@stud.ntnu.no (Jacob Munkhammar) wrote:
>> CAVE will have a system for generating location descriptions (and other
>> messages) using the directions left, right, forward and back, as well as
>> navigating in those directions and referencing objects, depending on from
>> what direction the player's character entered the room.
>

>I'd like to see directions move more toward this kind of realism: If I've been
>there before, I can get there again without having to retrace my steps.
>Exceptions for tricky areas can be made, but navigating over terrain with
>nothing new to add to the experience makes for one of the more frustrating IF
>experiences.
>
>Not only that, in an area that is not especially tricky, I can get to a place
>I know exists =without= ever having been there before simply by gauging
>relative distance and position. My feeling is don't force the player to stop
>in a room that doesn't impact the game.

Another scenario:

In my current WIP, the player character is in familiar surroundings
from the start of the game, even if the first-time player has never
seen those locations. GO TO THE BANK or GO TO THE DRUGSTORE will
always work, because the PC is assumed to know where that stuff is.

irene

Jacob Munkhammar

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May 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/4/99
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In article <7gl9gp$rai$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, okbl...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

> In article <jacob-30049...@ti29a96-0172.dialup.online.no>,
> ja...@stud.ntnu.no (Jacob Munkhammar) wrote:
> > CAVE will have a system for generating location descriptions (and other
> > messages) using the directions left, right, forward and back, as well as
> > navigating in those directions and referencing objects, depending on from
> > what direction the player's character entered the room.
>

> OK. Optional, of course, because some authors may wish to present the room
> differently based on what way the player is facing. When you start presume a
> genuine (movable) point of view, you add a massive degree of depth (and
> complexity) for the author who wants what the player reads to reflect that.
>

I think I will, in first version, only have functionallity to substitute
cardinal directions with relative. And then check the consequenses in
practice through experiment.

If I add functionality like turning, things invisible behind the back,
a.s.o., it seems to me we have a snowball rolling.
Yes, I know, it was the descriptions that started the snowball, but it
appears to me that this is a complexity hard to overview through theory.


> > Generally, I think the directions should stay static while in the same
> > room. For a very few actions, however, I am unsure whether this can be a
> > bit confusing.
>
> Yes, it probably will be. With the added complexity meaning that most authors
> will ignore the option.
>

They are, of course, very welcome to ignore it. ;)


> > I can, of course, add a report when a turn is performed, like: "You turn
> > right and try to open the door, but it is locked."
> > While in the same room, is always keeping the directions constant, or
> > sometimes changing them, the best option?
>
> I don't think you can determine that absolutely. That is, one who wishes to
> use this system is going to have to make this decision for himself.
>
> > I have no plans to supply 'TURN LEFT' or 'TURN RIGHT' verbs - in version
> > 1, anyway. (It really has no function, except as cosmetics, at this time.)
>
> But the cosmetics will be important. Much of IF is based on observation.
> Which way the player is facing in a room could (as in real life) dramatically
> affect his perception of the room.
>

Perhaps you are right. I was hoping that the actual *facing* would be less
of an issue (by f.ex. describe things "behind" the character with equal
significance as in any other direction), and that this would work as
nothing but other names for the directions.
Perhaps this wont work.

This functionality is so easy to implement (description generation and
command words, that is) that I will try it. If it's too awful in use, I
wont release it; if I find it is basically a matter of taste, I'll include
it.


> > The other thing is that I would like to include the directions southeast,
> > southwest, northwest and northeast in this mechanism. (It only works for
> > the 4 basic directions as of now.) But how are the direction between left
> > and forward, between right and back, a.s.o., to be described. Any creative
> > suggestions?
>
> I suggest that your basic premise is flawed, i.e., that people think in terms
> of left and right. Yes, they're more likely to think in terms of left and
> right than they are to think in cardinal directions, but I don't, for example
> get to my kitchen by: leaving my bedroom by the door on the left, following
> the hallway until it turns right, navigating the corner into the dining area
> and going straight through the doorway. I simply go to the kitchen.
>

As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, this functionally (room names) is
provided for, but given the interest it has been given in this discussion,
I will probably give it even more attention (read think about further
automation) in the future.
However, I see this as - technically - a completely different problem.


> And it's very unnatural for me to think in terms of left and right, and even
> *difficult* to do so the less familiar I am with where I'm going. I keep an
> internal map, and I often don't know until I get there which way I'm going to
> turn.
>
> This is not meant to discourage you, as there are doubtless many very
> interesting things that could be done using a system like this (judiciously)
> as well as many awful things.
>

That is up to the authors. ;)


> I'd like to see directions move more toward this kind of realism: If I've been
> there before, I can get there again without having to retrace my steps.
> Exceptions for tricky areas can be made, but navigating over terrain with
> nothing new to add to the experience makes for one of the more frustrating IF
> experiences.
>
> Not only that, in an area that is not especially tricky, I can get to a place
> I know exists =without= ever having been there before simply by gauging
> relative distance and position. My feeling is don't force the player to stop
> in a room that doesn't impact the game.
>

You do have a point there.


/Jacob

--
-- Jacob Munkhammar
-- http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~jacob/
--

okbl...@my-dejanews.com

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May 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/5/99
to
In article <372e3495....@news.csupomona.edu>,

ical...@csupomona.edu wrote:
>
> Another scenario:
>
> In my current WIP, the player character is in familiar surroundings
> from the start of the game, even if the first-time player has never
> seen those locations. GO TO THE BANK or GO TO THE DRUGSTORE will
> always work, because the PC is assumed to know where that stuff is.
>

On behalf of everyone who has struggled to find the bathroom in a house they
have lived in for years, I thank you. :-)

Irene Callaci

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May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
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On Wed, 05 May 1999 20:25:59 GMT, okbl...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

>In article <372e3495....@news.csupomona.edu>,
> ical...@csupomona.edu wrote:
>>
>> Another scenario:
>>
>> In my current WIP, the player character is in familiar surroundings
>> from the start of the game, even if the first-time player has never
>> seen those locations. GO TO THE BANK or GO TO THE DRUGSTORE will
>> always work, because the PC is assumed to know where that stuff is.
>>
>
>On behalf of everyone who has struggled to find the bathroom in a house they
>have lived in for years, I thank you. :-)

I still haven't decided what response I should give to

GO TO THE BATHROOM

That command will take you to the location of the bathroom,
but how can I let such a golden opportunity pass?

irene

Ryan N. Freebern

unread,
May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
to
ical...@csupomona.edu (Irene Callaci) pencilled:

>I still haven't decided what response I should give to
>
> GO TO THE BATHROOM
>
>That command will take you to the location of the bathroom,
>but how can I let such a golden opportunity pass?

Ha, ha. "Golden" opportunity. Bad, bad pun.

Also, ha, ha. "Pass."

But anyway, I think "go to the bathroom" is an American idiom. In most
cultures, people say they need to take a piss, or use the restroom
(facilities/w.c./toilet/whatever) or something. "Go to the bathroom"
is usually meant as a command to travel, not defecate.

-r

Hello, I am 20-years-old,cute,Japanese girl.
My hobby is shopping,movie. Do you like movie?

Kathleen M. Fischer

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May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
to
Irene Callaci wrote:
> I still haven't decided what response I should give to
>
> GO TO THE BATHROOM
>
> That command will take you to the location of the bathroom,
> but how can I let such a golden opportunity pass?

> GO TO BATHROOM
Having no spare clothes with you at the moment, you head north to
the restroom.

--
*******************************************************************
* Kathleen M. Fischer *
* kfis...@greenhouse.nospam.gov (nospam = l l n l) *
** "Don't stop to stomp ants while the elephants are stampeding" **

David Given

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May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
to
In article <3731ad63...@news.logical.net>,
ry...@SPAMcorknutSPAM.org (Ryan N. Freebern) writes:
[...]

> But anyway, I think "go to the bathroom" is an American idiom. In most
> cultures, people say they need to take a piss, or use the restroom
> (facilities/w.c./toilet/whatever) or something. "Go to the bathroom"
> is usually meant as a command to travel, not defecate.
[...]

Not in the UK; `go to the bathroom/go to the toilet' are equally widely
used.

BTW, it seems to be only the US that has the overly euphomistic
`restroom'. The rest of the (English-speaking) world uses bathroom and
toilets.

--
+- David Given ---------------McQ-+ A friend is someone you call to help you
| Work: d...@tao-group.com | move. A real friend is someone you call to
| Play: dgi...@iname.com | help you move a body.
+- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+

Kathleen M. Fischer

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May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
to
Ryan N. Freebern wrote:
> In most
> cultures, people say they need to take a piss, or use the restroom
> (facilities/w.c./toilet/whatever) or something.

Is w.c (water closet?) used anywhere besides England and architectural
drawings?

Hmmmmm... twisting this back to IF... does anyone know the date that
the name "water closet" came into common use there (ie. was it before
1876?)

Kathleen (who would never say "where is the toilet" is unless she was
in a hardware store looking for the actual fixture to purchase.)

Magnus Olsson

unread,
May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
to
In article <3731CF2E...@greenhouse.nospam.gov>,

Kathleen M. Fischer <kfis...@greenhouse.nospam.gov> wrote:
>Ryan N. Freebern wrote:
>> In most
>> cultures, people say they need to take a piss, or use the restroom
>> (facilities/w.c./toilet/whatever) or something.
>
>Is w.c (water closet?) used anywhere besides England and architectural
>drawings?

"WC" (without periods) is perhaps the most common word for "toilet" in
Swedish. This despite the fact that the Swedish equivalent of "water
closet" is "vattenklosett", so the abbreviation really should be "VK"
(which is never used).

--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se, zeb...@pobox.com)
------ http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon ------

Daniel Barkalow

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May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
to
On Wed, 5 May 1999 okbl...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

> On behalf of everyone who has struggled to find the bathroom in a house they
> have lived in for years, I thank you. :-)

If only it were that simple for us absent-minded folk in real life...

> GO TO THE BATHROOM

You walk out of your bedroom, down the stairs, around to the kitchen,
pick up a banana and walk back to the living room.

Living Room
You are in the middle of your living room, looking confused.

The book you've been reading is under the coffee table.

The phone begins to ring.

>

-Iabervon
*This .sig unintentionally changed*


Jacob Munkhammar

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May 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/7/99
to
In article <anson-06059...@ma-gnaps114.efortress.com>,
anson@DELETE_THISpobox.com (Anson Turner) wrote:

> In article <s4hsg7...@pearl.tao.co.uk>, d...@tao.co.uk (David Given) wrote:
>
> :BTW, it seems to be only the US that has the overly euphomistic


> :`restroom'. The rest of the (English-speaking) world uses bathroom and
> :toilets.
>

> How is "restroom" more euphemistic than "bathroom", especially when there
> is no bath (which is almost always the case when "restroom" is used)?
>

Don't forget "powder room"!

Being a Swede, the first time I heard this word was at a tour around a
Frank Lloyd Wright builing somewhere in the US. Looking into the room
under the stairs where they supposedly stored all their powder, I found
nothing but a toilet! (And no mirror for admiring any freshly powdered
nose either.)

L. Ross Raszewski

unread,
May 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/7/99
to
On Thu, 06 May 1999 10:19:42 -0700, Kathleen M. Fischer

<kfis...@greenhouse.nospam.gov> wrote:
>Ryan N. Freebern wrote:
>> In most
>> cultures, people say they need to take a piss, or use the restroom
>> (facilities/w.c./toilet/whatever) or something.
>
>Is w.c (water closet?) used anywhere besides England and architectural
>drawings?
>
>Hmmmmm... twisting this back to IF... does anyone know the date that
>the name "water closet" came into common use there (ie. was it before
>1876?)
>

It appears to have been in US usage during the early days of their existance.

>Kathleen (who would never say "where is the toilet" is unless she was
>in a hardware store looking for the actual fixture to purchase.)

Ditto.

Mo

unread,
May 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/7/99
to
Magnus Olsson wrote:
> "WC" (without periods) is perhaps the most common word for "toilet" in
> Swedish. This despite the fact that the Swedish equivalent of "water
> closet" is "vattenklosett", so the abbreviation really should be "VK"
> (which is never used).

This is also true for German, except that "water closet" is
"Wasserklosett" (which sounds very oldfashioned nowadays).


--
Mo Bonn, Germany
Matthias Oborski http://private.freepage.de/mo/
x...@gmx.de

Volker Blasius

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May 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/7/99
to
David Given <d...@tao.co.uk> wrote:
> BTW, it seems to be only the US that has the overly euphemistic
> `restroom'

I never understood how anyone can use 'restroom' in this context. Just
the thought of taking a rest in a crowded, soiled, stinking public
toilet is revolting.

Shudder
Volker


Larry Smith

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May 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/7/99
to
Jacob Munkhammar wrote:

> Don't forget "powder room"!

It gets worse. "Need to wash my hands" (yes, but we
don't explain that they aren't yet dirty). And my
personal favorite "Need to write a letter to Congress."

--
.-. .-. .---. .---. .-..-. | Never, ever underestimate
| |__ / | \| |-< | |-< > / | the power of stupid people
`----'`-^-'`-'`-'`-'`-' `-' | in large groups.
My opinions only. |

L. Ross Raszewski

unread,
May 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/7/99
to
Well, aside from the very nice lounges I've heard women speak of in their own
facilities, the problem probably stems from the fact that, at least in the US,
the word "toilet" refers to the fixture itself, so "public toilet" would be
inaccurate, unless one was speaking of a single fixture without a room
associated. Most (US) Americans would probably not refer to the room in their
own home where the fixture resides as a "toilet" either; 'bathroom' is the
common term there, which is also innacurate when speaking of public
lavatories (and 'lavatory' is a sort of funny sounding word), hence the
euphenism.

Kathleen M. Fischer

unread,
May 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/7/99
to
L. Ross Raszewski wrote:
>
> Most (US) Americans

As opposed to non-US Americans? :)

Kathleen (very nice department stores CAN have very nice womens
restrooms, with comfy chairs/sofas in a roomy well lit anti-room.
I haven't heard of such things in the men's room, but haven't
done any investigation of it either <g>)

Jake Wildstrom

unread,
May 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/7/99
to
In article <7gv8uq$mb3$1...@love.loyola.edu>,

L. Ross Raszewski <lrasz...@loyola.edu> wrote:
>On Fri, 7 May 1999 15:02:57 +0200, Volker Blasius <volker....@gmd.de> wrote:
>>David Given <d...@tao.co.uk> wrote:
>>> BTW, it seems to be only the US that has the overly euphemistic
>>> `restroom'
>>
>>I never understood how anyone can use 'restroom' in this context. Just
>>the thought of taking a rest in a crowded, soiled, stinking public
>>toilet is revolting.
>>
>>Shudder
>>Volker
>>
>Well, aside from the very nice lounges I've heard women speak of in their own
>facilities, the problem probably stems from the fact that, at least in the US,

Well, here's a long shot: in a lavatory you relieve yourself. Relief = rest,
for certain definitions of both words. Hence, it is a restroom. (reliefroom
being way too cumbersome a word)

>the word "toilet" refers to the fixture itself, so "public toilet" would be
>inaccurate, unless one was speaking of a single fixture without a room
>associated. Most (US) Americans would probably not refer to the room in their
>own home where the fixture resides as a "toilet" either; 'bathroom' is the
>common term there, which is also innacurate when speaking of public

speaking of bathrooms, (OT warning) finger bath...@bathroom.mit.edu to get
an idea of what the residents of Random Hall do with their spare time (there's
also a more venerable lau...@laundry.mit.edu).

+--First Church of Briantology--Order of the Holy Quaternion--+
| A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into |
| theorems. -Paul Erdos |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jake Wildstrom |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

J. Robinson Wheeler

unread,
May 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/7/99
to
Larry Smith wrote:
>
> Jacob Munkhammar wrote:
>
> > Don't forget "powder room"!
>
> It gets worse. "Need to wash my hands" (yes, but we
> don't explain that they aren't yet dirty).


What? When I tell people "I need to wash my hands," it means my
hands are dirty and I'm going to go wash them. Have I been telling
them something else this whole time?

Volker Blasius wrote:


>
> David Given wrote:
> > BTW, it seems to be only the US that has the overly euphemistic
> > `restroom'
>
> I never understood how anyone can use 'restroom' in this context.
> Just the thought of taking a rest in a crowded, soiled, stinking
> public toilet is revolting.

Say, I don't know which lavatories you've been using, but the
majority of the public ones I use are neither crowded nor soiled
nor stinking. I suppose they may be crawling with invisible
bacteria or something, but for mental health I try not to dwell
on that.

Also, it isn't just "restroom" that's used. "Men's room" and
"women's / ladies' room" are still often used. Though I agree
with whoever said it was probably the relief->rest connotation
that explains the wording.


--
J. Robinson Wheeler
whe...@jump.net http://www.jump.net/~wheeler/jrw/home.html

Kathleen M. Fischer

unread,
May 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/7/99
to
J. Robinson Wheeler wrote:
> Also, it isn't just "restroom" that's used. "Men's room" and
> "women's / ladies' room" are still often used. Though I agree
> with whoever said it was probably the relief->rest connotation
> that explains the wording.

Of course, there is the definition of rest that means "remainder",
but it's probably best not to dwell on that one.

Little Girls Room
Little Boys Room
Potty

Kathleen (why, oh why am I still posting to this thread?)

fra...@sinopsis.com

unread,
May 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/7/99
to
paene lacrimavi postquam d...@tao.co.uk (David Given) scripsit:

>BTW, it seems to be only the US that has the overly euphomistic
>`restroom'. The rest of the (English-speaking) world uses bathroom and
>toilets.

I use the word "loo" a lot; unfortunately the Americans that matter
(like the guy in the service station, the tattoo place, etc) don't
understand what I mean, requiring an embarassing last minute correction
to "bathroom".

Normally, one adapts to the local lingo fairly quickly. Unfortunately,
most of the people I know *really* *like* the word "loo" and have started
using it. Darn!

Most of these little ... uh ... discrepencies are harmless, the word
"pissed" as in "I'm really pissed" is an interesting exception. Of
course, I never need to use it in either sense, being a relaxed and
well-balanced individual.

Not.

Somebody told me how to translate "taking the piss" to American English,
but I've now forgotten. It's a bit like "yanking your chain," but not
quite.

ObIF: Ban north, south, east and west! It's an artifact of the interface,
but there has to be a way out of it, or at least removing the archaic
dependence on them! I like games that don't require me to map anything.

On the other hand, dynamic directions such as "in front" "behind" "left"
and "right" are even worse if moving around relies on them.

But how do you explore new locations without referencing a direction?
What does non-interactive fiction do? I guess it follows streets, turns
right, that sort of thing.

Hmmmm.

Fraser.

okbl...@my-dejanews.com

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May 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/8/99
to
In article <7guo9m$u5v$1...@hop.gmd.de>,

"Volker Blasius" <volker....@gmd.de> wrote:
>
> I never understood how anyone can use 'restroom' in this context. Just
> the thought of taking a rest in a crowded, soiled, stinking public
> toilet is revolting.

(Memo to self: While driving through Germany, hold it until I get to
Switzerland.)

Probably in an attempt to mitigate the very presence of indoor plumbing
dedicated to waste elimination, Victorian-minded interior designers provided
many reasons to "visit the facilities" for the upper classes.

The vestiges of this (chaise lounges, attendents with hot towels, and so on)
can still be found in department stores and upscale restaurants.

Ricardo Dague

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May 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/8/99
to
Kathleen M. Fischer wrote:
>
>
> Little Girls Room
> Little Boys Room
> Potty

Can
Head
John
The, uh, You Know

-- Ricardo

MFischer5

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May 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/8/99
to
<<From: ja...@stud.ntnu.no (Jacob Munkhammar)>

In article <3733314E...@greenhouse.nospam.gov>, "Kathleen M.
Fischer" <kfis...@greenhouse.nospam.gov> wrote:

> L. Ross Raszewski wrote:
> >
> > Most (US) Americans
>
> As opposed to non-US Americans? :)
>

America *is* four times the size of US, or so, isn't it?

>>

It certainly is bigger - can't say by how much - but I guess I've just never
heard any citizen of Canada, Mexico, or other local in the Americas (outside
the US) call themselves an American. Of course, that doesn't mean they don't!

My appoligies if I have offended anyone... certainly didn't mean to :)
Kathleen


Matthew T. Russotto

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May 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/8/99
to
In article <19990507222244...@ng-cs1.aol.com>,

MFischer5 <mfis...@aol.com> wrote:
}<<From: ja...@stud.ntnu.no (Jacob Munkhammar)>
}
}In article <3733314E...@greenhouse.nospam.gov>, "Kathleen M.
}Fischer" <kfis...@greenhouse.nospam.gov> wrote:
}
}> L. Ross Raszewski wrote:
}> >
}> > Most (US) Americans
}>
}> As opposed to non-US Americans? :)
}>
}
}America *is* four times the size of US, or so, isn't it?
}
}>>
}
}It certainly is bigger - can't say by how much - but I guess I've just never
}heard any citizen of Canada, Mexico, or other local in the Americas (outside
}the US) call themselves an American. Of course, that doesn't mean they don't!

Mexicans not only don't call themselves Americans, but they use the
term "Norteamericanos" to refer to people from the US! Even though
Mexico is indisputably part of North America. Canadians would never refer to
themselves as Americans, but they ARE always willing to object when
people from the US refer to themselves as such.

Also in Mexico "Estados Unidos" refers to the USA, despite the full
name of their own country beginning with "Estados Unidos". The
Canadians haven't caught on to this and started objecting to "United
States" yet.

The term "America" typically refers to the US, the continents being "North
America", "South America", and collectively "The Americas". And we
Americans like it that wat.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."

Joanna Marie Delaune

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May 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/8/99
to
Kathleen M. Fischer (kfis...@greenhouse.nospam.gov) wrote:

: Kathleen (very nice department stores CAN have very nice womens


: restrooms, with comfy chairs/sofas in a roomy well lit anti-room.
: I haven't heard of such things in the men's room, but haven't
: done any investigation of it either <g>)

Yes, but they always stink of some foul air freshener that's worse than
what the room would smell like if they didn't use any!

*cough cough choke*

Joanna M. DeLaune
jdel...@ocean.otr.usm.edu

Matthew T. Russotto

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May 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/8/99
to
In article <7h1p54$kau$1...@thorn.cc.usm.edu>,

Men's rooms have no such thing. They do sometimes have a guy whose job
it is to hand out towels, and who expects a tip. I appreciate their
realization that those hot air dryers are useless, but replacing them
with a maitre d'bathroom seems like overkill to me. Good old
fashioned paper towels work just fine, and don't expect a tip.

--MTR the uncultured

(and of course the men's room in LGOP is depressingly realistic)

TenthStone

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May 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/8/99
to
On Thu, 06 May 1999 10:19:42 -0700, "Kathleen M. Fischer"
<kfis...@greenhouse.nospam.gov> wrote:

>Ryan N. Freebern wrote:
>> In most
>> cultures, people say they need to take a piss, or use the restroom
>> (facilities/w.c./toilet/whatever) or something.
>
>Is w.c (water closet?) used anywhere besides England and architectural
>drawings?

I believe it's still somewhat widely used in France.


Adam J. Thornton

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May 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/8/99
to
In article <Mw_Y2.11$pK4....@monger.newsread.com>,

Matthew T. Russotto <russ...@wanda.vf.pond.com> wrote:
>Mexicans not only don't call themselves Americans, but they use the
>term "Norteamericanos" to refer to people from the US! Even though
>Mexico is indisputably part of North America. Canadians would never refer to
>themselves as Americans, but they ARE always willing to object when
>people from the US refer to themselves as such.

And if they keep up their bitchin' we'll bomb their embassy too. So there.

Adam
--
ad...@princeton.edu
"There's a border to somewhere waiting, and a tank full of time." - J. Steinman

Petter Sjölund

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May 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/9/99
to

Jacob Munkhammar wrote:

>I agree that navigating should be more flexible than it generally is in i-f.

Some people may recall that I actually started coding an Inform game
that got rid of directions in the way Jacob tries to do it.

I relied on the typing of the name of a room or an object to move the
player there, i.e. "DOOR" = "GO THROUGH THE DOOR". As far as I remember
it almost worked.

A pity I'm not working on it anymore. It had quite a nice system of
money as well...

Martin Jerabek

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May 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/9/99
to
Kathleen M. Fischer <kfis...@greenhouse.nospam.gov> wrote:
> Kathleen (very nice department stores CAN have very nice womens
> restrooms, with comfy chairs/sofas in a roomy well lit anti-room.

Anti-Room

You are not in a roomy well-lit anti-room. There are no exits to the
north and east. The missing trap door under the non-existent rug does
not lead downwards into the dark. In one of the 180-degree-corners a
non-open chest does not sit emptied with anti-matter gold coins
reflecting the black light from no torch which does not belong to you.

What do you not want to do now?

--
Martin "Jerry" Jerabek
<mailto:m.je...@xpoint.at>

Erik Max Francis

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May 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/9/99
to
Martin Jerabek wrote:

> Anti-Room
>
> You are not in a roomy well-lit anti-room. There are no exits to the
> north and east. The missing trap door under the non-existent rug does
> not lead downwards into the dark. In one of the 180-degree-corners a
> non-open chest does not sit emptied with anti-matter gold coins
> reflecting the black light from no torch which does not belong to you.
>
> What do you not want to do now?

I was thinking more along the lines of:

You are in a dark cave. To the east there is light.
There is a human skeleton here.
Next to the skeleton is a strange device with an moveable appendage
in the shape of a rod. It clicks quietly.

> GET DEVICE

Taken.

> EAST

You are in a narrow causeway. It is lighter to the east.
The device clicks more frequently.

> EAST

You are in the mouth of a cave. There is strange flashing coming
through the east.
Above the mouth is a sign.
The device is clicking even more frequently, as if it's going to
explode.

> READ SIGN

The sign says, "Anti-Room."
You feel sick.

> EAST

*** BOOM ***

*** You have died ***

--
Erik Max Francis / email m...@alcyone.com / whois mf303 / icq 16063900
Alcyone Systems / irc maxxon (efnet) / finger m...@members.alcyone.com
San Jose, CA / languages En, Eo / web http://www.alcyone.com/max/
USA / icbm 37 20 07 N 121 53 38 W / &tSftDotIotE
\
/ Dear World: I am leaving because I am bored.
/ George Sanders (in his suicide note)

Florian Edlbauer

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May 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/10/99
to
Petter Sjölund wrote:

> Some people may recall that I actually started coding an Inform game
> that got rid of directions in the way Jacob tries to do it.
>
> I relied on the typing of the name of a room or an object to move the
> player there, i.e. "DOOR" = "GO THROUGH THE DOOR". As far as I remember
> it almost worked.
>
> A pity I'm not working on it anymore. It had quite a nice system of
> money as well...

Maybe you would like to post the code? It could be expanded upon by the IF
community (I, for one, will try, but I'm not good at it) and used by everyone who
likes it. I think it'd be very useful indeed.

Florian


Larry Smith

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May 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/10/99
to
J. Robinson Wheeler wrote:

> Larry Smith wrote:

> > Jacob Munkhammar wrote:

> > > Don't forget "powder room"!

> > It gets worse. "Need to wash my hands" (yes, but we
> > don't explain that they aren't yet dirty).

> What? When I tell people "I need to wash my hands," it means my
> hands are dirty and I'm going to go wash them. Have I been telling
> them something else this whole time?

Yup. Unless you were about to start dinner and
your hands were noticably grimey. Retroactive
embarrassment, eh? =)

L. Ross Raszewski

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May 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/10/99
to
On Sat, 08 May 1999 17:25:42 GMT, Matthew T. Russotto
<russ...@wanda.vf.pond.com> wrote:
>Also in Mexico "Estados Unidos" refers to the USA, despite the full
>name of their own country beginning with "Estados Unidos". Even the

>Canadians haven't caught on to this and started objecting to "United States"

My fuzzy recollections of spanish class tells me that in Mexico, the
United States of America are referred to in full as
"Los Estados Unidos de los Estados Unidos" to disambiguate from their own
country. This, of course, means that rather than using the perfectly
good name which the USA has printed on all its documentation, they have named
the country "The United States of the United States"


Petter Sjölund

unread,
May 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/11/99
to

Florian Edlbauer wrote:

> Maybe you would like to post the code? It could be expanded upon by the IF
> community (I, for one, will try, but I'm not good at it) and used by everyone who
> likes it. I think it'd be very useful indeed.

It's a nice idea. But I really think my code is too messy right now to
really be useful to or understood by anyone save myself.

I still hope to get started on it again some day. We'll see.

--
Petter Sjölund
----------------------------------------------------
Stockholmsvägen 53
S-182 74 Stocksund
Sweden
Phone +46 (8) 85 43 34
Beeper +46 740 455 606
----------------------------------------------------

Larry Smith

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May 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/11/99
to
L. Ross Raszewski wrote:

> My fuzzy recollections of spanish class tells me that in Mexico, the
> United States of America are referred to in full as

> "Los Estados Unidos de los Estados Unidos" [...]


> "The United States of the United States"

Must've been from the Department of Redundancy Department.

Kathleen M. Fischer

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May 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/11/99
to
Larry Smith wrote:
>
> L. Ross Raszewski wrote:
>
> > My fuzzy recollections of spanish class tells me that in Mexico, the
> > United States of America are referred to in full as
> > "Los Estados Unidos de los Estados Unidos" [...]
> > "The United States of the United States"
>
> Must've been from the Department of Redundancy Department.

Their charter? "To eliminate and eradicate superfluous redundancies"

Kathleen

Stefan Blixt

unread,
May 14, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/14/99
to

>ObIF: Ban north, south, east and west! It's an artifact of the interface,
>but there has to be a way out of it, or at least removing the archaic
>dependence on them! I like games that don't require me to map anything.

Connecting to the thread where someone talked about doing IF in Chinese:
If I remember correctly from the four-week intense course I took, in
Chinese the words "right" and "left" don't exist (or at least aren't
commonly used). When people give street directions they say things like:
"Go down that street, turn south, go past three blocks, turn west" etc.
Possibly other languages do this as well.

Not that this really is an argument here, since most IF is done in
English (or other European languages).

/Blixt

Philip W. Darnowsky

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May 14, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/14/99
to
Stefan Blixt (fl...@bartlet.df.lth.se) wrote:

: Connecting to the thread where someone talked about doing IF in Chinese:


: If I remember correctly from the four-week intense course I took, in
: Chinese the words "right" and "left" don't exist (or at least aren't
: commonly used). When people give street directions they say things like:
: "Go down that street, turn south, go past three blocks, turn west" etc.
: Possibly other languages do this as well.

Huh? How do they talk about an individual hand or foot? And what if you've
got a poor sense of direction?

--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Darnowsky pdar...@spameggsbaconandspam.qis.net
Remove spam, eggs, bacon, spam, and dot to reply.

The IBM Pollyanna Principle:
Computers should work. People should think.

Stefan Blixt

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May 15, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/15/99
to
pdar...@qis.net (Philip W. Darnowsky) wrote:

>Stefan Blixt (fl...@bartlet.df.lth.se) wrote:
>
>: Connecting to the thread where someone talked about doing IF in Chinese:
>: If I remember correctly from the four-week intense course I took, in
>: Chinese the words "right" and "left" don't exist (or at least aren't
>: commonly used). When people give street directions they say things like:
>: "Go down that street, turn south, go past three blocks, turn west" etc.
>: Possibly other languages do this as well.
>
>Huh? How do they talk about an individual hand or foot? And what if you've
>got a poor sense of direction?

Eh... beats me :) But I think I remember the street directions thing
correctly.

/Blixt


MIDI_Samkim

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May 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/16/99
to

Martin Jerabek wrote in message
<1drk3z5.1q0...@dialin5166.xpoint.at>...

>Anti-Room
>
>You are not in a roomy well-lit anti-room. There are no exits to the
>north and east. The missing trap door under the non-existent rug does
>not lead downwards into the dark. In one of the 180-degree-corners a
>non-open chest does not sit emptied with anti-matter gold coins
>reflecting the black light from no torch which does not belong to you.
>
>What do you not want to do now?


> EAT SCRAPPLE

msk

Jonadab the Unsightly One

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May 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/27/99
to
"Volker Blasius" <volker....@gmd.de> wrote:

> David Given <d...@tao.co.uk> wrote:
> > BTW, it seems to be only the US that has the overly euphemistic
> > `restroom'


>
> I never understood how anyone can use 'restroom' in this context. Just
> the thought of taking a rest in a crowded, soiled, stinking public
> toilet is revolting.

Um, I don't know what you've been told about the U.S., but we *do*
have working plumbing...

Now, in someplace like Cedar Point the sheer volume of people dictate
that it will be crowded and furthermore that they generally can't get
in there to clean it except after the place closes. But most public
restrooms are not usually crowded (one can frequently expect to be
the only person in the room, despite multiple fixtures) and are kept
essentially clean most of the time. Well, around here anyway. I
should like to think it's similar elsewhere.

As for the babblings other people have uttered about sofas and
attendants, please tell me where these things are common so I can
dutifully avoid travelling there.


-- jonadab

Username in email address is dyslexic; correct to jonadab

Jonadab the Unsightly One

unread,
May 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/27/99
to
d...@tao.co.uk (David Given) wrote:


> BTW, it seems to be only the US that has the overly euphomistic
> `restroom'. The rest of the (English-speaking) world uses bathroom and
> toilets.

If you think 'restroom' is euphemistic, what about 'lavatory',
'laboratory' (a mutation of the preceeding), or 'facility' (which is
occasionally used in the plural, sometimes even when there's only
one)?

Oh, and 'office'. Also "throne room"; however, those last two are
probably said more facetiously than euphemistically.

Of course, if you want to go in the reverse direction there's 'potty'
(which is spelled any number of ways) as well as various
colloquialisms ('john', 'commode', 'pot', ...)

We also have "men's room" and "women's room" as well as "ladies'
room" (but not "gentlemen's room" AFAIK). Also "boys' room" and
"girls' room", although the apostrophes are usually either misplaced
or left out altogether. (Or the label on the door just says "boys"
or "girls" or "men" or "women" or "ladies", or has a visual icon
instead (usually a stick figure that either is or is not wearing a
skirt, but occasionally you'll see a variation of some kind), and you
never see the possessive form in print, in spite of the fact that
it's always prounounced with the word "room" tagged onto it.)
Actually, pretty much the only thing we *don't* call it is WC (or the
written out form of same).

Kathleen M. Fischer

unread,
May 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/27/99
to
Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote:
> But most public
> restrooms are not usually crowded (one can frequently expect to be
> the only person in the room, despite multiple fixtures)

Well, I can certainly tell which restroom you are used to
frequenting.

Kathleen (willing to vote for most any politician advocating
potty parity)

okbl...@my-deja.com

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May 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/27/99
to
In article <374c6fec...@news.bright.net>,

bad...@bright.net (Jonadab the Unsightly One) wrote:
>
> As for the babblings other people have uttered about sofas and
> attendants, please tell me where these things are common so I can
> dutifully avoid travelling there.
>

You'd need a time travel machine and a tuxedo.

[ok]


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

AFranzman

unread,
May 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/28/99
to
> BTW, it seems to be only the US that has the overly euphomistic
> `restroom'. The rest of the (English-speaking) world uses bathroom and
> toilets.

In the US, "bathroom" is often used (even when said room contains no actual
bathing facilities.) Do the English still use "water closet" or "W.C."?

Alan "A.J." Franzman
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

My e-mail address does not compute.

Jonadab the Unsightly One

unread,
Jun 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM6/2/99
to
fra...@sinopsis.com wrote:

> I use the word "loo" a lot;

That's common enough here that most people would know what you meant
if you used it in the phrase "go to the loo", although I had always
spelled it "lou" for some reason...

> Somebody told me how to translate "taking the piss" to American English,
> but I've now forgotten. It's a bit like "yanking your chain," but not
> quite.

"taking a leak" will work , although it's *decidedly* informal.

> ObIF: Ban north, south, east and west! It's an artifact of the interface,
> but there has to be a way out of it, or at least removing the archaic
> dependence on them! I like games that don't require me to map anything.
>

> On the other hand, dynamic directions such as "in front" "behind" "left"
> and "right" are even worse if moving around relies on them.

What about if moving around can be done by these but does not rely on
them, with north/south/etc being also allowed?

Jonadab the Unsightly One

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Jun 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM6/4/99
to
Larry Smith <l...@zk3.dec.com> wrote:

> > What? When I tell people "I need to wash my hands," it means my
> > hands are dirty and I'm going to go wash them. Have I been telling
> > them something else this whole time?
>
> Yup. Unless you were about to start dinner and
> your hands were noticably grimey. Retroactive
> embarrassment, eh? =)

Depends on the people in question. My dad considers it important to
wash one's hands after such activities as petting the dog.

Jonadab the Unsightly One

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Jun 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM6/4/99
to
russ...@wanda.vf.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:

> Mexico is indisputably part of North America.

I have been officially taught four different answers to the question
of which continent includes Mexico. North America is the most
frequent but still accounts for the "correct" answer less than half
the time, in my limited experience.

Erik Max Francis

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Jun 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM6/4/99
to
Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote:

> russ...@wanda.vf.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:
>
> > Mexico is indisputably part of North America.
>
> I have been officially taught four different answers to the question
> of which continent includes Mexico. North America is the most
> frequent but still accounts for the "correct" answer less than half
> the time, in my limited experience.

Well, it sounds like you had pretty poor teachers. :-)

--
Erik Max Francis / email m...@alcyone.com / whois mf303 / icq 16063900
Alcyone Systems / irc maxxon (efnet) / finger m...@members.alcyone.com
San Jose, CA / languages En, Eo / web http://www.alcyone.com/max/
USA / icbm 37 20 07 N 121 53 38 W / &tSftDotIotE
\

/ It is much safer to obey than to rule.
/ Thomas a Kempis

Allen Garvin

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Jun 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM6/4/99
to
Jonadab the Unsightly One <bad...@bright.net> wrote:
russ...@wanda.vf.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:

Mexico is indisputably part of North America.

I have been officially taught four different answers to the question
of which continent includes Mexico. North America is the most
frequent but still accounts for the "correct" answer less than half
the time, in my limited experience.

Well, there's the North American Free Trade Agreement, which includes
Mexico. I'd be interested to here the other possible 3 continents Mexico
belongs to.... Antarctica, because of all the penguins running around?
--
Allen Garvin Is it not strange that sheeps'
--------------------------------------------- guts should hale souls out of
eare...@faeryland.tamu-commerce.edu men's bodies?
http://faeryland.tamu-commerce.edu/~earendil -- Shakespeare

Brent Van