Pop-Up Map

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Roosevelt

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Feb 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/5/99
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I was just wondering if there was a pop-up map system I could incorporate
into a game. I know that there's pop-up hints but a map system would help
my game a lot. Not even a map of where you've been. But to give an
example, the player finds a map and uses the pop-up map to view it, instead
of drawing an ASCII map when he writes "read map" or "look at map" or...well
you get the idea,

Any info would be appreciated thanx.

Chris Landry

Erik Hetzner

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Feb 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/5/99
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Unfortunately, the system that allows for pop-up (linear) books has
not yet been ported to non-linear book systems.

Your best bet is to go with these new e-books; the hologram
option might work.

Nevertheless, it is my (personal) opinion that no electronic
pop-up book will compare with the wonders of the paper pop-up
books of my youth. You simply can't create that sense of
wonder that a folded paper dinosaur popping out of the page
gives.

-Erik

Michael Gaul

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Feb 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/6/99
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Roosevelt wrote:
>
> I was just wondering if there was a pop-up map system I could incorporate
> into a game. I know that there's pop-up hints but a map system would help
> my game a lot. Not even a map of where you've been. But to give an
> example, the player finds a map and uses the pop-up map to view it, instead
> of drawing an ASCII map when he writes "read map" or "look at map" or...well
> you get the idea,

I'm currently working on an Automap system for Inform. It automatically
prints all rooms that player has visited so far, and their connections
and exits. It already works for simple maps - e.g. no doors, all <dir>_to
properties must return objects or strings (no routines), all rooms must
have the same size etc.) Some of these restrictions can be worked around
by giving Automap auxiliary data in a "mapdata" property, provided by
any room that needs special treatment. As a bonus, the map can be zoomed
in and out.

The procedure isn't completed however. Some things still don't work,
some aren't implemented yet, and some are just driving me nuts. (Perhaps
this wasn't a good choice as my first sensible project.) While I'm
reluctant to give away only partially working code, I may be able to
send you some relevant code if you're interested. If you can't use it,
it may still trigger some ideas for your own implementation. Just drop
me a mail and specify your wishes as exactly as possible, so that I
can see whether my code is relevant to your problem.

I think that *lots* of games would benefit from an automapping system.
I don't know how many games I quit early because I couldn't get an
orientation and was too lazy to draw a map. What are others thinking
about that? Would an includable Automap feature make sense?


Michael

Roosevelt

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Feb 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/7/99
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>Unfortunately, the system that allows for pop-up (linear) books has
>not yet been ported to non-linear book systems.
>


Huh?

>Your best bet is to go with these new e-books; the hologram
>option might work.
>


Double huh?

>Nevertheless, it is my (personal) opinion that no electronic
>pop-up book will compare with the wonders of the paper pop-up
>books of my youth. You simply can't create that sense of
>wonder that a folded paper dinosaur popping out of the page
>gives.
>


What are you talking about??? I meant like a system where you press Alt + M
and a little window would open up with a map.......I know there are games
with pop-up hints and you press Alt + H and a little hint window opens,,,,,,

Jonadab the Unsightly One

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Feb 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/8/99
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Michael Gaul <ga...@rz.uni-potsdam.de> wrote:

> Roosevelt wrote:

[I missed this original post.]

> > I was just wondering if there was a pop-up map system I could incorporate
> > into a game. I know that there's pop-up hints but a map system would help
> > my game a lot.

As a proof of concept, check out
http://www.bright.net/~jonadab/inform/#automap

This requires some work on the part of the game author,
but it's not *too* bad.

> > Not even a map of where you've been.

Well, by default it only shows visited locations,
but that could easily be changed.

> > But to give an
> > example, the player finds a map and uses the pop-up map to view it, instead
> > of drawing an ASCII map when he writes "read map" or "look at map" or...well
> > you get the idea,

No, I don't get the idea. Instead of an ASCII map, what other
possibility is there? Do you mean bitmap graphics of some kind,
or am I completely lost? I just didn't follow the above. You
didn't specify *what* the system you're looking for would do
"instead of drawing an ASCII map".

> I'm currently working on an Automap system for Inform. It automatically
> prints all rooms that player has visited so far, and their connections
> and exits.

You mean without any special code on the part of the game author?

Woohoo!

> It already works for simple maps - e.g. no doors, all <dir>_to
> properties must return objects or strings (no routines), all rooms must
> have the same size etc.) Some of these restrictions can be worked around
> by giving Automap auxiliary data in a "mapdata" property, provided by
> any room that needs special treatment. As a bonus, the map can be zoomed
> in and out.

Zoomed in and out? Cooool.

> The procedure isn't completed however.

Where have we heard *that* before?

> I think that *lots* of games would benefit from an automapping system.
> I don't know how many games I quit early because I couldn't get an
> orientation and was too lazy to draw a map. What are others thinking
> about that? Would an includable Automap feature make sense?

Personally, I have a decent enough sense of direction that I
generally don't need a map unless there are a lot of
visit-only-occasionally-on-the-way-to-somewhere locations (or an
outright maze). I started drawing a map of Curses, but I soon found
I didn't need it. However, one of my alpha testers requested a map
feature (this is the same one who wanted me to tell him almost
verbatim what to type every turn, but hey...) and I asked a while
back on rgif about it, and I don't remember how many players said
they would really like such a feature, but I remember that it was
enough to convince me it was worth doing.

- jonadab

BabelFish

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Feb 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/8/99
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"Roosevelt" <roosev...@hotmail.com> scribbled:
[snip]
>Huh?
[snip]
>Double huh?
[snip]

>What are you talking about??? I meant like a system where you press Alt + M
>and a little window would open up with a map.......I know there are games
>with pop-up hints and you press Alt + H and a little hint window opens,,,,,,

Ha ha ha ha ha ho ho ho hee hee!

That's all pretty funny. Ever seen a pop-up children's book, Roos? :)

-r


Roosevelt

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Feb 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/8/99
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>That's all pretty funny. Ever seen a pop-up children's book, Roos? :)


Of course............and I can't understand how anyone could even possibly
think that's what I meant............
Although it would be cool if I COULD do it....

Roosevelt

Roosevelt

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Feb 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/8/99
to
>> > But to give an
>> > example, the player finds a map and uses the pop-up map to view it,
instead
>> > of drawing an ASCII map when he writes "read map" or "look at map"
or...well
>> > you get the idea,
>
>No, I don't get the idea. Instead of an ASCII map, what other
>possibility is there? Do you mean bitmap graphics of some kind,
>or am I completely lost? I just didn't follow the above. You
>didn't specify *what* the system you're looking for would do
>"instead of drawing an ASCII map".


Well....some games have maps that you can type READ MAP and like a READ BOOK
it just types a map......I mean something the PC can look at....like a world
map in many console RPG games. To give the player a general sense of
direction in a large game and allow pure freedom in a world with many towns,
cities, castles, caves.....I want to build an IF WORLD in a game.....and the
adventure would be one story that covered all of the world.

>> It already works for simple maps - e.g. no doors, all <dir>_to
>> properties must return objects or strings (no routines), all rooms must
>> have the same size etc.) Some of these restrictions can be worked around
>> by giving Automap auxiliary data in a "mapdata" property, provided by
>> any room that needs special treatment. As a bonus, the map can be zoomed
>> in and out.


That could work......but you'd need labels and unvisited rooms.

Roosevelt

Michael Gaul

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Feb 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/9/99
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Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote:

> Michael Gaul <ga...@rz.uni-potsdam.de> wrote:

> > Roosevelt wrote:
> > > I was just wondering if there was a pop-up map system I could incorporate
> > > into a game.

> As a proof of concept, check out
> http://www.bright.net/~jonadab/inform/#automap
> This requires some work on the part of the game author,
> but it's not *too* bad.

Right. It's a nice system, but I thought it might be possible
to develop something that required less work and planning
from the author. But that's a point still left to prove. As
usual, some of my ideas that I had at the beginning already
turned out to be illusions.
At present, your system has one unbeatable advantage over mine:
It's working. ;-)


> > I'm currently working on an Automap system for Inform. It automatically
> > prints all rooms that player has visited so far, and their connections
> > and exits.
>
> You mean without any special code on the part of the game author?
>
> Woohoo!

Well, the idea is that the author can make a choice: Either he
doesn't want to program a single line of code for the map - then he
has to obey certain restrictions, some of them mentioned in my post.
Or he wants a map with doors, rooms of different sizes etc. - then
he has to help Automap with some additional coding when needed.
So there's still a tradeoff between map complexity and ease of
programming, and some things will still be hard to do.

While this isn't nothing, I hate it to disappoint people. So please
make it a lower case "woohoo!". ;-)


> > As a bonus, the map can be zoomed in and out.

> Zoomed in and out? Cooool.

I thought so too - implementing it into the first simple procedure
was very easy, but now this feature is driving me mad. I can't
get it to work for different room sizes. There must be some stupid
bug in my concept.


> > The procedure isn't completed however.

> Where have we heard *that* before?

Okay, I promise you that I won't break the record - which is,
correct me if I'm wrong, currently held by a remarkable game in
a "King Arthur" setting. But I will have very little time for
the next eight weeks. I'm currently working with children
suffering from cancer or rheumatism, and whenever I have to make
a choice whether to get more information about their diseases,
or to work on Automap, Automap usually loses. I wouldn't want
to have it the other way round though.


> > I think that *lots* of games would benefit from an automapping system.
> > I don't know how many games I quit early because I couldn't get an
> > orientation and was too lazy to draw a map. What are others thinking
> > about that? Would an includable Automap feature make sense?

> Personally, I have a decent enough sense of direction that I
> generally don't need a map unless there are a lot of
> visit-only-occasionally-on-the-way-to-somewhere locations (or an
> outright maze).

Admirable. I usually get lost with more than eight or nine rooms.
But I also get lost in department stores, or when leaving the main
streets. Im just glad that my girlfriend and I are living in a
1 1/2 room apartment - otherwise I'd fear I'd starve while trying
to find a way to the frig.


Michael

Erik Hetzner

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Feb 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM2/12/99
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Roosevelt <roosev...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Someone else wrote...

It was a joke.

I have a funny sense of humor.

No pun intended.
-Erik

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