Arbitrary death; TADS graphic
Dave Allen
Two unrelated articles caught my attention on r.a.i-f.
1. Arbitrary death:
Magnus Olsson (m...@marvin.df.lth.se) wrote:
> 3. Fire Witch: Here I must protest! You're really being unfair - because
> you've misunderstood the entire thing! This is *not* an "Instant death",
> this is a *puzzle*. You have an entire move to get out of the trap, and
> I can give you this much of a spoiler: unless you've dropped it, you
> were carrying the means of survival when you get caught, you just failed to
> use it. Blaming the author for that isn't quite fair, is it? Furthermore,
> in fact you can't win the game without setting of the trap (though
> under slightly different circumstances).
I've never played Fire Witch, so possibly I misunderstood, but it seems like
this is a one-turn deathtrap puzzle: you have one attempt to enter the
right command, and if you don't get it right the first time you die.
While this is clearly better than rooms that kill you off without warning,
this doesn't seem like a reasonable deathtrap. If you don't remember the
name of the object, even though you know it and realize it can be used to
solve the puzzle, you have to use your one command to "inventory".
How did other folks feel about this one turn deadline? Did others like it?
Did most people figure it out, or did most people die and then undo?
2. TADS graphic:
Anders Haavie (aha...@ifm.uio.no) wrote:
> Will the Brand New Tads Graphics program be available for macintosh ??
>
> (If you don't know what the Tads Graphics program is, download info from
> the tads directory on ftp.gmd.de )
Um, hm. There is a file on ftp.gmd.de, /if-archive/programming/tads, called
tgdoc.zip. It contains a lot of detail about a program called TADS/Graphic,
which allows you to associate graphics and sound with TADS programs.
This is interesting, and it sounds cool, but my April Fools detector is
going off. For one thing, the file isn't signed -- there is no indication
of who wrote it.
Does anybody know about this? It could be that there was a big thread about
this and I missed it, but some other possibilities come to mind.
- Dave Allen: al...@viewlogic.com
Andrew C. Plotkin
Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.int-fiction: 13-Mar-95 Arbitrary death;
TADS graphic Dave Al...@hex.viewlogic (2167)
> > 3. Fire Witch: Here I must protest! You're really being unfair - because
> > you've misunderstood the entire thing! This is *not* an "Instant death",
> > this is a *puzzle*. You have an entire move to get out of the trap, and
> > I can give you this much of a spoiler: unless you've dropped it, you
> > were carrying the means of survival when you get caught, you just failed to
> > use it. Blaming the author for that isn't quite fair, is it? Furthermore,
> > in fact you can't win the game without setting of the trap (though
> > under slightly different circumstances).
> I've never played Fire Witch, so possibly I misunderstood, but it seems like
> this is a one-turn deathtrap puzzle: you have one attempt to enter the
> right command, and if you don't get it right the first time you die.
> While this is clearly better than rooms that kill you off without warning,
> this doesn't seem like a reasonable deathtrap. If you don't remember the
> name of the object, even though you know it and realize it can be used to
> solve the puzzle, you have to use your one command to "inventory".
Having now actually played through Fire Witch, I have decided that this
area is reasonable. It is nasty, but it's part of the plot -- it's the
deathtrap that snared your buddy John, and he was, well, ok, he was sort
of stupid. But never mind that :-) And the manner of death is
interesting, you think about it, and later in the game it becomes very
relevant that you have thought about it.
I agree that players can't really be expected to survive it the first
time; even though they have a turn to work, they'll almost certainly not
do the right thing. (Unless they save right away... not a bad response.)
But the point is not to "survive the puzzle", the point is to find out
how the mechanism works. The warning on the archway, ambiguous though it
is, should be enough to cause the player to save the game just in case.
I like the idea of a death (and stuckability) rating system. The game
banner says "If you are new to interactive fiction, type 'instructions'.
If you are familiar with IF, type 'about' for information about this
game." Then the "about" message says something like:
"This is a kind game. You cannot die, get stuck, or make a mistake."
"This is a pleasant game. You should save every so often, but you will
not die or make a serious mistake unless you do something blatantly
stupid."
"This is a nasty game. You should save copiously, particularly when you
see an unusual situation."
"This is a cruel game. You should save copiously, and keep all your old
save files. Any choice may have consequences much later in the game."
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
John Baker
>Having now actually played through Fire Witch, I have decided that this
>area is reasonable. It is nasty, but it's part of the plot -- it's the
>deathtrap that snared your buddy John, and he was, well, ok, he was sort
^^^^^^^^^^
I resent this. ;)
--
John Baker
"What the hell does that mean? Huh? 'China is here.'?
I don't even know what the hell that means!"
- Jack Burton
David Baggett
Dave Allen <al...@hex.viewlogic.com> wrote:
>This is interesting, and it sounds cool, but my April Fools detector is
>going off. For one thing, the file isn't signed -- there is no indication
>of who wrote it.
It's not a joke, but I think it's on hold.
Dave Baggett
__
d...@ai.mit.edu MIT AI Lab "Verbing weirds language" -- Calvin
ADVENTIONS: Kuul text adventures! Email for a catalog of releases.
Chris Goedde
>Having now actually played through Fire Witch, I have decided that this
>area is reasonable....
>I agree that players can't really be expected to survive it the first
>time; even though they have a turn to work, they'll almost certainly not
>do the right thing. (Unless they save right away... not a bad response.)
>But the point is not to "survive the puzzle", the point is to find out
>how the mechanism works. The warning on the archway, ambiguous though it
>is, should be enough to cause the player to save the game just in case.
Everything you say here reinforces my feeling that this is a bug, not
a feature. Puzzles which can only be solved by dying are a bad thing,
imo. This sort of "instant death" puzzle always makes me think one
thing---too bad the author couldn't think of something more original.
I shouldn't have to die and then undo or restore in order to "find out
how the mechanism works."
Also, is the arch in any way connected to those cells? Is there some
way for the player to relate that "uneasy feeling" to the giant ice
cube he's seen?
To make it worse, this same device (i.e. a timed puzzle which results
in death unless the correct thing is done in the proper turn) recurs
_twice_ more in Fire Witch. C'mon John, you can do better than that!
chris
goe...@nwu.edu
John Baker
>Everything you say here reinforces my feeling that this is a bug, not
>a feature. Puzzles which can only be solved by dying are a bad thing,
>imo. This sort of "instant death" puzzle always makes me think one
>thing---too bad the author couldn't think of something more original.
>I shouldn't have to die and then undo or restore in order to "find out
>how the mechanism works."
Not a bug. Coded it up on purpose I did. You don't have to die to
figure it out either. Although most probably do (die at least once),
one of my beta testers (who had never played IF before by the way)
solved it in front of me the first time they encountered it.
Although this is a personal preference thing anyway, I don't think I
crossed any etiquette boundaries because the perfect player can play the
game straight through the first time without dying. Now had I left in
the random chance of falling when you jump the pit ... :)
As one other rec.arts.int-fiction poster wrote, I *like* games where I
can die. I want to do things I might not try in real life (although
those who know me know that that's not too many things :0).
Firewitch is a far cry from a perfect game (and my next game will be
much improved), but in my personal opinion, the archway puzzle is not
one of its problems. Feel free to disagree.
Chris Goedde
>I wrote:
>>Everything you say here reinforces my feeling that this is a bug, not
>>a feature. Puzzles which can only be solved by dying are a bad thing,
>>imo. This sort of "instant death" puzzle always makes me think one
>>thing---too bad the author couldn't think of something more original.
>>I shouldn't have to die and then undo or restore in order to "find out
>>how the mechanism works."
>
>Not a bug. Coded it up on purpose I did.
I meant that figuratively, of course.
>As one other rec.arts.int-fiction poster wrote, I *like* games where I
>can die. I want to do things I might not try in real life (although
>those who know me know that that's not too many things :0).
But there's a difference between dying and dying arbitrarily. In this
particular case there's no logical connection between the arch and the
cells (it's certainly not obvious if it's there). This makes the
whole thing pretty arbitrary and not very interesting imo. Is there
some reason that the archway exists? To me, it seemed like it was put
there out of sheer "puzzleness." But then, most of the underworld in
JFW seems pretty arbitrary, so maybe that's the point :-).
chris
Jesse McGrew
[snip]
: 2. TADS graphic:
: Anders Haavie (aha...@ifm.uio.no) wrote:
: > Will the Brand New Tads Graphics program be available for macintosh ??
: >
: > (If you don't know what the Tads Graphics program is, download info from
: > the tads directory on ftp.gmd.de )
: Um, hm. There is a file on ftp.gmd.de, /if-archive/programming/tads, called
: tgdoc.zip. It contains a lot of detail about a program called TADS/Graphic,
: which allows you to associate graphics and sound with TADS programs.
: This is interesting, and it sounds cool, but my April Fools detector is
: going off. For one thing, the file isn't signed -- there is no indication
: of who wrote it.
: Does anybody know about this? It could be that there was a big thread about
: this and I missed it, but some other possibilities come to mind.
Some time ago, I looked at the list of files on the Hi-Energy BBS and saw
the Tads/G beta. Then I decided to spend money and I called the BBS. I tried
to download the file and it said something to the order of "That is a
restricted file. Your security level is now 5."
I think that the Tads/Graphic project has been postponed indefinitely.
Justin R. Bendich
John Baker <bak...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Not a bug. Coded it up on purpose I did. You don't have to die to
>figure it out either. Although most probably do (die at least once),
>one of my beta testers (who had never played IF before by the way)
>solved it in front of me the first time they encountered it.
I got confused by the repeated references to something i "couldn't put my
finger on". Having solved Firewitch, i still don't understand what that is
(the safe?). Maybe i'm just looking for clues that aren't there...
>John Baker
>"What the hell does that mean? Huh? 'China is here.'?
> I don't even know what the hell that means!"
> - Jack Burton
--
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| Justin | Member SEFOMB (Society to Eliminate Fans Of Michael Bolton)
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