Directions in space
George Caswell
On 19 Nov 1996, Neil K. Guy wrote:
> Sourcerer (sour...@starbug.49.249.155) wrote:
> : In a game set in a spaceship, directions such as north, south etc don't
> : make a lot of sense. Is there any prefered way to handle this? I was
> : thinking about assigning directions with north-south along the central axis
> : of the ship, with up and down more or less arbitrary.
>
> The standard Infocom solution was to map fore, aft, port and starboard
> to north, south, west and east, respectively. So you could use your
A slightly irregular solution, but it works. 'up' and 'down' in
centrifugal gravity would be toward and away from the axis of rotation.. In
microgravity or weightlessness, other directions become almost as arbitrary as
up and down...
> compass rose directions simply out of convenience (it's really no less
> realistic than in any other game. After all, the player isn't expected to
> be wandering around with a compass in her pocket - absolute directions
Well, originally this wasn't true. Adventure and Zork characters were,
well, adventurers. I think in the case of Infocom, at least, this was just
-continued- for convenience, as you say..
> are simply handy in text games) or you could use the mariner's terms if
> you prefer. Only problem with this is that there's no easy and obvious
> equivalent for northwest, southeast, etc.
>
I still think some sort of named-location system would be preferable in
most circumstances, especially ones where the cardinal points don't apply or
can move (space or any vehicle).. (FMI on my idea of movement systems, see
the 'idea for movement system: take 2' thread) As long as locations and exits
can be named distinctly or the use of relative direction to clear ambiguity
isn't too often needed, I think it can work well.
Of course I don't think making my movement system (in planning) work for
weightless situations would be the best of ideas... Expanding the relative
direction to 3 dimensions would be a project for an idiot or a masochist
(unless there's some really good reason for it I don't know about... but I
digress)
________________________________________________
______________ _/> ____ | George Caswell, WPI CS 1999. Member L+L and |
<___ _________// _/<_ / | SOMA. Sometimes artist, writer, builder. Admin |
// <> ___ < > / _/ | of ADAMANT, a Linux box for the creative and |
// /> / / _/ / / <____ | productive members of the computer world. For |
// </ <<</ < _/ <______/ |_more info see http://www.wpi.edu/~timbuktu.____|
</ </
Cardinal Teulbachs
sour...@starbug.49.249.155 (Sourcerer) wrote:
> In a game set in a spaceship, directions such as north, south etc don't
>make a lot of sense. Is there any prefered way to handle this? I was
>thinking about assigning directions with north-south along the central axis
>of the ship, with up and down more or less arbitrary.
> has anybody else come up with a solution to this problem?
Fore, aft, port and starboard are good because a) they're familiar
enough to most players that the players aren't turned off by them, and
b) they're natural to the story; they are, in fact, the directions
used within or on ships. But there's nothing to prevent you, if you
dare, from inventing your own directional system. I'm not saying it's
a great idea, but it's an idea. Decide that "nw", for instance, is
going to be "toward Alpha Centauri" and that the word for that
direction in your game world's lingo is "hubbahubba" (abbreviated
"hh", I guess). Do the same for the rest of the compass directions
(maybe look at a map of constellations or something to get real-life
reference points).
In other words, have your story simply declare that in the year 2050
or whatever, the United Federation of Loosely United and Completely
Sovereign Planets decided on certain galactic navigational conventions
(blah blah blah), and then force the player to use them. Maybe he'll
like them, maybe he won't; it's just a thought.
--Cardinal T
I mean, what the hell kind of villain thwarts the hero's
progress with soup cans in the kitchen pantry?
--Russ Bryan
Isn't this .sig a little long? I hope *I* never
contribute to such a tremendous waste of bandwidth.
--Jools the Whiney
Are there any text games prominently featuring dinosaurs?
If not, does anyone besides me think it would be cool?
--Matthew Amster-Burton
"Cyber-Babushka"
--Bonni Mierzejewska
Sourcerer
BPD
sour...@starbug.49.249.155 (Sourcerer) wrote:
My personal preference is for fore, aft, port, and starboard although
I'm not sure how directions like "Northeast" would get translated into
that scheme.
Brian P. Dean
Andrew Plotkin
Sourcerer (sour...@starbug.49.249.155) wrote:
> In a game set in a spaceship, directions such as north, south etc don't
> make a lot of sense. Is there any prefered way to handle this? I was
> thinking about assigning directions with north-south along the central axis
> of the ship, with up and down more or less arbitrary.
> has anybody else come up with a solution to this problem?
I believe _Starcross_ allowed "f", "a", "sb", "p" as abbreviations for
"fore", "aft", "starboard", and "port". But this was so annoying (and
irregular, with a two-letter abbreviation) that everyone winds up using
compass directions anyway. "fore" was north.
If the ship has artificial gravity -- either via rotation or tech-magic
-- up and down are meaningful. If the ship *sometimes* has artificial
gravity then up and down are still meaningful. If it never does (a true
zero-gravity environment) you can probably assign arbitrary directions
and everyone will be perfectly happy. Or allow "bridge", "engineering",
etc as single-word movement commands... or maybe "3" to go through hatch
#3...
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Bruce Alan Greenwood
In article <sourcer...@starbug.49.249.155> sour...@starbug.49.249.155 (Sourcerer) writes:
> In a game set in a spaceship, directions such as north, south etc don't
>make a lot of sense. Is there any prefered way to handle this? I was
>thinking about assigning directions with north-south along the central axis
>of the ship, with up and down more or less arbitrary.
>
> has anybody else come up with a solution to this problem?
---
Bruce Greenwood
Matthew Amster-Burton
sour...@starbug.49.249.155 (Sourcerer) wrote:
> In a game set in a spaceship, directions such as north, south etc don't
>make a lot of sense. Is there any prefered way to handle this? I was
>thinking about assigning directions with north-south along the central axis
>of the ship, with up and down more or less arbitrary.
I would go nuts playing a game where I had to use directional commands
other than the traditional n, s, ne, u, etc. Allowing "fore", "aft",
and so on as alternatives would be fine. Forcing me to use another
system--unless it's the "type where you want to go" system
characteristic of Nord and Bert--would guarantee that I wouldn't play
the game.
Well, that sounds a bit harsh. If it's a zero-g environment, you
could come up with something pretty strange that would have novelty
value, at least.
Matthew
George Caswell
On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Andrew Plotkin wrote:
> and everyone will be perfectly happy. Or allow "bridge", "engineering",
> etc as single-word movement commands... or maybe "3" to go through hatch
For small non-hostile environments it's certainly a nice thing to do to let
the player go somewhere by name... A player's ship, unless it has something
wrong with it, should always allow the player to go where they please, so
movement something like what was done in Nord N' Bert should work.
Clyde Sloniker
(Forgive my dip into humor, please. (grin))
George Caswell <timb...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>On 19 Nov 1996, Neil K. Guy wrote:
>> compass rose directions simply out of convenience (it's really no less
>> realistic than in any other game. After all, the player isn't expected to
>> be wandering around with a compass in her pocket - absolute directions
>
> Well, originally this wasn't true. Adventure and Zork characters were,
>well, adventurers. I think in the case of Infocom, at least, this was just
>-continued- for convenience, as you say..
Which brings to mind the question (at least for me): what should the
Well-Dressed Adventurer be equipped with? I think we can fairly safely
identify the following items as essential to the adventuring trade:
* A light source. There are dark rooms out there, after all, and the
Well-Dressed Adventurer's night vision is notoriously poor. Preferably
the source can be refueled, or doesn't require fuel. In the olden days,
adventurers were always running out of lamp oil right when they needed it
most...
* A compass. While the Well-Dressed Adventurer understands the basic
concept of doors (often as obstacles to further progress), he doesn't
think of rooms in the same way as you or I, namely, the connections
between rooms. (Quiz yourself. Do *you* know which way north is from
your house?) Imagine trying to give the Well-Dressed Adventurer
directions: "Bathroom? Yeah. Go through that door, on the end of the
hall, on your left." "Pardon?" "South twice, than east." "Ah."
* Map-making tools. The Well-Dressed Adventurer never relies on his
memory to navigate around even such a theoretically familiar place as his
own home digs. Paper, a writing utensil (preferably a pencil), and a
surface are a must. Many modern adventurers, though, just take notes in
the field and render a map on their computer when they get back to home
base.
* A major case of kleptomania. While the Well-Dressed Adventurer would
never *steal* from you, he is always on the lookout for items he can
borrow until his adventure is done. To prevent unfortunate property
damage, I recommend against attempting to secure your valuables in a safe,
by nailing them down, by hiding them under the bed, etcetera. The more
difficult an item is to obtain, the more obsessed he becomes with getting
it. Lay in a supply of sticky labels instead, and label anything you
don't want him fiddling with 'scenery'. This magic incantation wards the
Well-Dressed Adventurer more often than not.
Can anyone come up with additions to this list?
Andrew Plotkin
Clyde Sloniker (pu...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
> Which brings to mind the question (at least for me): what should the
> Well-Dressed Adventurer be equipped with? I think we can fairly safely
> identify the following items as essential to the adventuring trade:
> * A compass.
Certainly not. The Well-Dressed Adventurer has a perfect sense of
direction. He doesn't need a compass. He can tell you which way is north
after being stripped naked and teleported to a pitch-black room on a
different planet.
I think you have to add
* No manners at all.
Neil K. Guy
Sourcerer (sour...@starbug.49.249.155) wrote:
: In a game set in a spaceship, directions such as north, south etc don't
: make a lot of sense. Is there any prefered way to handle this? I was
: thinking about assigning directions with north-south along the central axis
: of the ship, with up and down more or less arbitrary.
The standard Infocom solution was to map fore, aft, port and starboard
to north, south, west and east, respectively. So you could use your
compass rose directions simply out of convenience (it's really no less
realistic than in any other game. After all, the player isn't expected to
be wandering around with a compass in her pocket - absolute directions
are simply handy in text games) or you could use the mariner's terms if
you prefer. Only problem with this is that there's no easy and obvious
equivalent for northwest, southeast, etc.
Oh and up and down simply moved you between decks. Operating on the
assumption that your fictitious spaceships have some form of artificial
gravity or, failing that, were built by human beings for whom a
psychological up and down is somewhat important.
- Neil K. Guy
--
the Vancouver CommunityNet * http://www.vcn.bc.ca/
(formerly the Vancouver Regional FreeNet)
George Caswell
On 19 Nov 1996, Clyde Sloniker wrote:
> (Forgive my dip into humor, please. (grin))
>
NO! DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE,
DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE DIE, DIE, DIE,
DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE DIE,
DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE,
DIE DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE, DIE,
DIE, DIE, DIE!!! Well, OK, you're forgiven.
> directions: "Bathroom? Yeah. Go through that door, on the end of the
> hall, on your left." "Pardon?" "South twice, than east." "Ah."
>
<One of the design goals of my system is to make adventurers use the first
directions...>
Let's not forget the wise adventurer always knows that things aren't always
what they seem to be, even when they seem to be what you think they are- If,
for example, you go east, the way back might -not- be west....
> it. Lay in a supply of sticky labels instead, and label anything you
> don't want him fiddling with 'scenery'. This magic incantation wards the
> Well-Dressed Adventurer more often than not.
>
It also helps if you give all your posessions really obscure names or
describe them in odd nous. Instead of 'computer', make sure your 386 can only
be referred to by the name 'Torgo'. Always call your mouse a pointer, and
call the phone a audicom. More often than not, this will make an adventurer
simply give up.
Graham Nelson
In article <sourcer...@starbug.49.249.155>, Sourcerer
<URL:mailto:sour...@starbug.49.249.155> wrote:
>
> In a game set in a spaceship, directions such as north, south etc don't
> make a lot of sense. Is there any prefered way to handle this? I was
> thinking about assigning directions with north-south along the central axis
> of the ship, with up and down more or less arbitrary.
>
In "De Stella Nova", a fragmentary game which alas I never
completed, a scene in zero gravity was dealt with by removing
all the usual direction objects from the Inform compass and
inserting six new ones:
x-plus x-minus y-plus y-minus z-plus z-minus
abbreviated to xp, zm, x+ and so on. You had to imagine the
inside of the spacecraft had suitable markings, but that seemed
believable enough.
I actually got the idea from a press briefing by the Russian
Space Agency. (They use a similar notation in referring to
docking ports on the Mir space station.)
--
Graham Nelson | gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom
George Caswell
On 20 Nov 1996, Bruce Alan Greenwood wrote:
> In article <56t3fb$9...@nntp5.u.washington.edu> pu...@u.washington.edu (Clyde Sloniker) writes:
> [Snip]
> >Can anyone come up with additions to this list?
>
> * Pocketless clothes. The well-dressed adventurer spurns pockets, even
> when it -would- make it easier to carry that rubber duck(which the
> well dressed adventurer needs to be able to get Focault's Pendulum
> away from the Sword of Damocles).
>
Well, I don't think it's that the adventurer spurns pockets, just that they
don't know what to do with them. Even when they -have- pockets, all they do
is search them-- it just rarely occurs to them that they might benefit from
putting an object they've worked so hard to find into something not in
immediate view...
...They -will-, however, look for any objects that they can put their stuff
in.
Cardinal Teulbachs
pu...@u.washington.edu (Clyde Sloniker) wrote:
>Can anyone come up with additions to this list?
Piece of cake. No Well-Dressed Adventurer would be caught dead without
his bag, or at least a designer zipper. Now, admittedly, some retro
deviants try to swim against the tide using only their hands, yet a
container by any other name is still a way to cart around your loot.
--Cardinal T
I mean, what the hell kind of villain thwarts the hero's
progress with soup cans in the kitchen pantry?
--Russ Bryan
Are there any text games prominently featuring dinosaurs?
If not, does anyone besides me think it would be cool?
--Matthew Amster-Burton
"Cyber-Babushka"
--Bonni Mierzejewska
"Bathroom? Yeah. Go through that door, on the end
of the hall, on your left." "Pardon?" "South twice,
than east." "Ah."
--Clyde Sloniker
Greg Ewing
BPD wrote:
>
> I'm not sure how directions like "Northeast" would get translated into
> that scheme.
Foreport, foreboard, aftport, aftboard.
Greg
Dan Shiovitz
In article <erkyrathE...@netcom.com>,
Andrew Plotkin <erky...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Clyde Sloniker (pu...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
>> Which brings to mind the question (at least for me): what should the
>> Well-Dressed Adventurer be equipped with? I think we can fairly safely
>> identify the following items as essential to the adventuring trade:
>
>> * A compass.
>
>Certainly not. The Well-Dressed Adventurer has a perfect sense of
>direction. He doesn't need a compass. He can tell you which way is north
>after being stripped naked and teleported to a pitch-black room on a
>different planet.
>
>I think you have to add
>
>* No manners at all.
Well, at least he* never learned about nothing taking other people's stuff.
Also, the Well-Dressed Adventurer must be outfitted with at least 300 arms,
so he can hold every item in the game and still be able to push buttons
and pull levers.
*(The well-dressed adventurer is also always gender unspecified, but also
always male.)
>--Z
--
dan shiovitz scy...@u.washington.edu sh...@cs.washington.edu
slightly lost author/programmer in a world of more creative or more
sensible people ... remember to speak up for freedom because no one else
will do it for you: use it or lose it ... carpe diem -- be proactive.
my web site: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~scythe/home.html some ok stuff.
Bruce Alan Greenwood
In article <56t3fb$9...@nntp5.u.washington.edu> pu...@u.washington.edu (Clyde Sloniker) writes:
[Snip]
* Pocketless clothes. The well-dressed adventurer spurns pockets, even
when it -would- make it easier to carry that rubber duck(which the
well dressed adventurer needs to be able to get Focault's Pendulum
away from the Sword of Damocles).
* A bad memory. I forget why.
* A funny little voice inside their heads, which tells them what to
do.
* A good case of deja vu. The well-dressed adventurer will often
know that pulling that lever will propell them into certain death
at the teeth of a six-foot razor worm at the bottom of a pit, in spite
of the fact that the only way such information could be gained would
be by actually pulling the lever. Odd, that.
---
Bruce Greenwood
"Wave the rod while standing on the rainbow. Go on, it can't huuuuuuuu
Clyde Sloniker
Cardinal Teulbachs <card...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Bathroom? Yeah. Go through that door, on the end
> of the hall, on your left." "Pardon?" "South twice,
> than east." "Ah."
> --Clyde Sloniker
Flattered as I am, I should point out I'm really *Fred* Sloniker; I'm
using my brother's account until I get the software for mine up and
running. (His is a shell, mine is PPP.)
I'm saving contributions to this thread, and will summarize them at a
later date.
Bruce Stephens
>>>>> "George" == George Caswell <timb...@adamant.res.wpi.edu> writes:
> ...They -will-, however, look for any objects that they can put
> their stuff in.
Yes, and then they just carry them around. I mean, it would seem to
make sense to wear a rucksack, but no...
--
Bruce Stephens | email: B.Ste...@math.ruu.nl
Utrecht University | telephone: +31 30 2534630
Department of Mathematics | telefax: +31 30 2518394
P.O. Box 80010, 3508 TA Utrecht, The Netherlands
Matthew T. Russotto
In article <56t3fb$9...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>,
Clyde Sloniker <pu...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
}Which brings to mind the question (at least for me): what should the
}Well-Dressed Adventurer be equipped with? I think we can fairly safely
}identify the following items as essential to the adventuring trade:
}
* A rucksack, backpack, or other pack capable of holding all the
things he's err.. borrowed. Of course, this is an idea the Well-Dressed
Adventurer got from a certain lean and hungry gentleman. The
Well-Dressed Adventurer likes to carry everything around with him at
all times, for he never knows when he might need it.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
Eli The Bearded
Dan Shiovitz <scy...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>Well, at least he* never learned about nothing taking other people's stuff.
>Also, the Well-Dressed Adventurer must be outfitted with at least 300 arms,
>so he can hold every item in the game and still be able to push buttons
>and pull levers.
The WDA does not have all that many arms, usually just two.
The WDA *does* have series of prehensile appendages sticking
out from his(/her) spine to hang things off of.
The WDA is also never surprized by a lack of people milling about
and thinks everyone he(/she) encounters is going to help or
hinder.
Elijah
------
this is usenet, might as well make a TLA out of it
null...@aol.com
> The WDA is also never surprized by a lack of people milling about
> and thinks everyone he(/she) encounters is going to help or
> hinder.
Oh, man, I ran into one of those WDAs the other day. What a pain:
ME: Hey, nice to meet you, how's it going?
WDA: Hello.
ME: So, what brings you to this desolate corridor in an abandoned
building?
WDA: What about the abandoned building?
ME: Er, right, abandoned building. That's what I said.
WDA: What about the abandoned building?
ME: Um, sorry, what?
WDA: Give me all.
ME (backing away slowly): Sorry, I don't have anything for you right now.
Well, nice to meet you...
At that point he tried to attack me with this oddly-carved box he happened
to be carrying, and I ran for it. "No manners," indeed.
Neil
---------------------------------------------------------
Neil deMause ne...@echonyc.com
http://www.echonyc.com/~wham/neild.html
---------------------------------------------------------
Greg Falcon
pu...@u.washington.edu (Clyde Sloniker) wrote:
>Cardinal Teulbachs <card...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> "Bathroom? Yeah. Go through that door, on the end
>> of the hall, on your left." "Pardon?" "South twice,
>> than east." "Ah."
>> --Clyde Sloniker
>Flattered as I am, I should point out I'm really *Fred* Sloniker; I'm
>using my brother's account until I get the software for mine up and
>running. (His is a shell, mine is PPP.)
I hope Cardinal T. sees the golden opportunity here.
"Flattered as I am, I should point out I'm really *Fred* Slonkier."
--Clyde Sloniker
;-)
Greg
--
This space for rent.
George Caswell
On 20 Nov 1996, Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
> In article <56t3fb$9...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>,
> Clyde Sloniker <pu...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> }Which brings to mind the question (at least for me): what should the
> }Well-Dressed Adventurer be equipped with? I think we can fairly safely
> }identify the following items as essential to the adventuring trade:
> }
> [...]
> * A rucksack, backpack, or other pack capable of holding all the
> things he's err.. borrowed. Of course, this is an idea the Well-Dressed
> Adventurer got from a certain lean and hungry gentleman. The
> Well-Dressed Adventurer likes to carry everything around with him at
> all times, for he never knows when he might need it.
Unless, of course, the adventurer has found the object's 'true home', the
idyllic location or situation which adventurers know every inanimate object
tries to reach, the one that truly fits best-- and so adventurers continue
their crusade to put such objects in their rightful place...
Beej!
In article <wwan2wd...@bommel.math.ruu.nl>,
Bruce Stephens <step...@math.ruu.nl> wrote:
>Yes, and then they just carry them around. I mean, it would seem to
>make sense to wear a rucksack, but no...
But didn't you know? All adventurers automatically carry "implied
rucksacks".
-Beej
Julian Arnold
In article <56ttva$2...@colombia.earthlink.net>, Cardinal Teulbachs
<URL:mailto:card...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> --Cardinal T
>
> I mean, what the hell kind of villain thwarts the hero's
> progress with soup cans in the kitchen pantry?
> --Russ Bryan
>
> Are there any text games prominently featuring dinosaurs?
> If not, does anyone besides me think it would be cool?
> --Matthew Amster-Burton
>
> "Cyber-Babushka"
> --Bonni Mierzejewska
>
> of the hall, on your left." "Pardon?" "South twice,
> than east." "Ah."
> --Clyde Sloniker
WHAT THE !$%# IS THIS?!? Clyde Sloniker, you've overstepped the mark
this time... I'll see you in hell...
Jools (Well, it worked once...)
--
Cardinal Teulbachs
professo...@pnx.com (Greg Falcon) wrote:
>I hope Cardinal T. sees the golden opportunity here.
> "Flattered as I am, I should point out I'm really *Fred* Slonkier."
> --Clyde Sloniker
Hey, you're good!
Yer not tryin' to muscle in on my business now, are ye...?
(But sorry, one per customer. Letting followups into the .sig could
have all sorts of nasty repercussions: infinitely recursing .sig loops
and what have you. Brr.)
Dan Dalton
Sourcerer <sour...@starbug.49.249.155> wrote in article
<sourcer...@starbug.49.249.155>...
> In a game set in a spaceship, directions such as north, south etc
don't
> make a lot of sense. Is there any prefered way to handle this? I was
> thinking about assigning directions with north-south along the central
axis
> of the ship, with up and down more or less arbitrary.
>
> has anybody else come up with a solution to this problem?
>
maybe use direction names used by aircraft
I don't know check your local library for books about planes
and names for directions.
Bruce Stephens
But only "small" ones, capable of carrying five or so items.
(Admittedly, sometimes they seem able to store ladders and things.)
Dave Gatewood
In article <erkyrathE...@netcom.com> erky...@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin) writes:
>Sourcerer (sour...@starbug.49.249.155) wrote:
>> In a game set in a spaceship, directions such as north, south etc don't
>> make a lot of sense. Is there any prefered way to handle this? I was
>> thinking about assigning directions with north-south along the central axis
>> of the ship, with up and down more or less arbitrary.
>
>> has anybody else come up with a solution to this problem?
>
>"fore", "aft", "starboard", and "port". But this was so annoying (and
>irregular, with a two-letter abbreviation) that everyone winds up using
>compass directions anyway. "fore" was north.
I think Leather Goddesses of Phobos did it best:
***
Hold
You are in the cargo hold of a giant spaceship. A tiny viewport is
set into the curving steel hull, and arched passageways lead in
directions that we will arbitrarily call south and southwest.
> SW
Long Corridor
You are partway along an "east-west" hall of mind-numbing length.
Rings of light pulsate along the corridor in rhythm with the ship's
throbbing engines. Openings lead "east" and "northeast."
***
From here on, LGOP puts all the directions in quotes. It makes for a
joke in this case, but it's also the easiest system for the player.
Whether you decide to use "port" and "starboard", or a system like
"turbolift, take me to the bridge", or the movement system proposed in
another thread, I think it's a good idea to allow the player to use
the old-fashioned compass directions if he chooses - they're quick,
easy, convenient, mappable... and at this point they're second nature.
Dave
Bill Hoggett
On 20-Nov-96 Clyde Sloniker <pu...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>Can anyone come up with additions to this list?
Well, I'm partial to a sprinkling of olive oil with a few radishes
and peppers scattered on top.
You can make those chillies but go light on the pepper, it makes
me sneeze. (...and you wouldn't like that)
Sparky the Dragon.
Greg Falcon
card...@earthlink.net (Cardinal Teulbachs) wrote:
>> "Flattered as I am, I should point out I'm really *Fred* Slonkier."
>> --Clyde Sloniker
>Hey, you're good!
Well, thank you. (Even if I *DID* misspell Sloniker the first time.)
>Yer not tryin' to muscle in on my business now, are ye...?
Unfortunately, there's no way I *COULD*. Your .sig is one of those
rare great ideas. It's the kind of thing that everyone sits around
thinking:
"Wow. That's a great idea! Why didn't I think of that?"
Then they get pissed, because they know they could never do it. If
they did, everyone would accuse them of stealing your great idea. So
these people get really fed up.
(If you're curious, these people are the ones that complain about your
.sig being a waste of bandwidth. As if their posts asking you to stop
something that you have no intention of stopping AREN'T wastes of
bandwidth. Really.)
Come to think of it, there's really only one way someone could get
away with using your idea. It would only be useable for about two
days' worth of posts. If a person made their sig somehow referential
to yours, they could get away with it by claiming, "It's a homage, not
a rip-off!" Of course, only one person could use this plan, because
anyone else using it would be accused of ripping off the first
ripper-offer's idea...
Hey!!
I gotta run.
--Greg F
"Yer not tryin' to muscle in on my business now, are ye...?"
-Cardinal Teulbachs
Cardinal Teulbachs
professo...@pnx.com (Greg Falcon) wrote:
>(If you're curious, these people are the ones that complain about your
>.sig being a waste of bandwidth. As if their posts asking you to stop
>something that you have no intention of stopping AREN'T wastes of
>bandwidth. Really.)
Go easy on Jools :) He was only taunting me in an effort to squirm his
way into the .sig. He managed, but now, since Clyde-aka-Fred's come
along, I've finally gotten my revenge...
>Come to think of it, there's really only one way someone could get
>away with using your idea.
> [snip]
> "Yer not tryin' to muscle in on my business now, are ye...?"
> -Cardinal Teulbachs
You're doing an admirable job of it, I'd say :) In fact, I'm a bit
awed by your grace. I may have to start looking for a job...
--Cardinal T
I mean, what the hell kind of villain thwarts the hero's
progress with soup cans in the kitchen pantry?
--Russ Bryan
Are there any text games prominently featuring dinosaurs?
If not, does anyone besides me think it would be cool?
--Matthew Amster-Burton
"Cyber-Babushka"
--Bonni Mierzejewska
"Bathroom? Yeah. Go through that door, on the end
of the hall, on your left." "Pardon?" "South twice,
than east." "Ah."
--Clyde "Fred" Sloniker
L. Ross Raszewski
is it just m, or are those _really_ ugly words?
BTW, I worked out what to do about up and down on a ship: It's ventral
and dorsail, contrarespectively.
Dan Dalton
creating your own names for directions can cause problems
the players will want to play the game right away
and don't want to learn a new way to move about
you might want to keep it simple enough that you
don't have to read a bunch of manuals to figure out
(maybe a built in system in the game to teach players
how to pilote a ship)
and the directions ne sw ect.. should also be considered
esp in a vast open area (such as outer space).
an auto pilot feature might also be a good idea
for covering vast amount of space (such as the distance between
system and system)while the manual flight control could be used for
smaller things such as exploring the current area.
--
Dan Dalton
<rim...@shadetree.com>
Really...I have no Idea what I just said.
-
The well-dressed adventurer either walks around stark naked most of the
time, or is completely unaware of most of his/her clothes.
Nicholas Daley
<mailto:dal...@ihug.co.nz>
Greg Falcon
card...@earthlink.net (Cardinal Teulbachs) wrote:
>>Come to think of it, there's really only one way someone could get
>>away with using your idea.
>> [snip]
>> "Yer not tryin' to muscle in on my business now, are ye...?"
>> -Cardinal Teulbachs
>You're doing an admirable job of it, I'd say :) In fact, I'm a bit
>awed by your grace. I may have to start looking for a job...
You're awed by my grace?
See what I was talking about, folks? That "homage" story works every
time.
No, no. I have no intention of taking your job, your trademark. It's
too Teulish a thing for anyone else to use now, anyway.
Besides, you can't stop yet. Not until I've shown up in your .sig at
least once.
--Greg F
Brent A. Hayhoe
>>> Bruce Stephens <B.Ste...@math.ruu.n> writes:
>>>>>> "George" == George Caswell <timb...@adamant.res.wpi.edu> writes:
>
>> ...They -will-, however, look for any objects that they can put
>> their stuff in.
>
>make sense to wear a rucksack, but no...
They also tend to leave all these containers open...
...ever tried walking around with an open briefcase!
---
Regards,
Brent Hayhoe.
Nortel Ltd., Tel: +44 (0)1279-402937
140 Greenway, Harlow Business Park, Fax: +44 (0)1279-405070
Harlow, Essex, CM19 5QD, U.K. Email: hay...@nortel.co.uk
George Caswell
On 22 Nov 1996, Dan Dalton wrote:
>
>
> creating your own names for directions can cause problems
> the players will want to play the game right away
> and don't want to learn a new way to move about
I don't know- If a certain movement system is extremely alien to the
environment you're trying to implement, I'd say it's worth it.
> you might want to keep it simple enough that you
> don't have to read a bunch of manuals to figure out
Most often a good strategy for a game.
> Dan Dalton
> <rim...@shadetree.com>
> Really...I have no Idea what I just said.
>
Neither do I, but you just said it in two sentences. (I use the term
loosely.)
Den of Iniquity
Sourcerer (sour...@starbug.49.249.155) reputedly wrote:
> In a game set in a spaceship, directions such as north, south etc don't
> make a lot of sense.
I can't believe no-one has yet supplied the obvious additions to the
normal compass directions:
uptynorth, uptysouth, uptyeast, uptywest, downtynorth, downtysouth...
uptynortheast...
(well, the phrases 'up north', 'down south' are already well established
in Britain...)
--
Den
-
Sourcerer wrote:
>
> In a game set in a spaceship, directions such as north, south etc don't
> thinking about assigning directions with north-south along the central axis
> of the ship, with up and down more or less arbitrary.
>
> has anybody else come up with a solution to this problem?
If the spaceship rotates to produce artificial gravity, then you could
base directions on this. ie when looking at the earth from above the
north pole it spins anti-clockwise (?), so decide what direction (if you
looked at the ship from outside would it be spinning anti-clockwise (the
front would probably preferable).
Nicholas Daley
<mailto:dal...@ihug.co.nz>
George Caswell
Huh? Why is the direction of spin important? (Unless, of course, you want
to describe what the player sees outside...)
Cardinal Teulbachs
Den of Iniquity <dms...@york.ac.uk> wrote:
>(well, the phrases 'up north', 'down south' are already well established
>in Britain...)
As are "back east" and "out west" in the US.
At least we *have* an east and west <sniff>.
(Cardinal ducks)
George Caswell
On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, Cardinal Teulbachs wrote:
> Den of Iniquity <dms...@york.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >(well, the phrases 'up north', 'down south' are already well established
> >in Britain...)
>
> As are "back east" and "out west" in the US.
>
Don't forget 'down east'...
Captain Harlock
In <32966751.575@-.-> - writes:
> Sourcerer wrote:
> >
> > In a game set in a spaceship, directions such as north, south etc don't
> > make a lot of sense. Is there any prefered way to handle this? I was
> > thinking about assigning directions with north-south along the central axis
> > of the ship, with up and down more or less arbitrary.
> >
> > has anybody else come up with a solution to this problem?
>
> If the spaceship rotates to produce artificial gravity, then you could
> base directions on this. ie when looking at the earth from above the
> north pole it spins anti-clockwise (?), so decide what direction (if you
> looked at the ship from outside would it be spinning anti-clockwise (the
> front would probably preferable).
For additional realism, especially on a smaller spaceship, add aliases to the
standard north-south directions to the effect of fore, aft, port and starboard.
This would allow the user to pick his own realism, so to speak. If he preferred
to think in terms of north-south, he could use those; or if he preferred naval
directions, those would also work.
--
David "Captain Harlock" Scott
har...@ttu.edu
http://pegasus.acs.ttu.edu/~z5d31
John Hartnup
George Caswell (timb...@adamant.res.wpi.edu) wrote:
: > If the spaceship rotates to produce artificial gravity, then you could
: > base directions on this. ie when looking at the earth from above the
: > north pole it spins anti-clockwise (?), so decide what direction (if you
: > looked at the ship from outside would it be spinning anti-clockwise (the
: > front would probably preferable).
: >
: Huh? Why is the direction of spin important? (Unless, of course, you want
: to describe what the player sees outside...)
Merely because it provides a point of reference in the same way as Earth's
axis of rotation does.
c.f. Discworld - where the directions are Rimward, Hubwise, Turnwise and
Widdershins.
John
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
John Hartnup | You can drink your weak lemon drink
sl...@ladle.demon.co.uk| now, or you can save it 'til later.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Gord Jeoffroy
>> >(well, the phrases 'up north', 'down south' are already well established
>> >in Britain...)
>>
>> As are "back east" and "out west" in the US.
>>
>Don't forget 'down east'...
And the programming nightmare of "out yonder."
--Gord, mentally out yonder...
Bill Hoggett
On 21-Nov-96 Dan Dalton <rim...@shadetree.com> wrote:
>Sourcerer <sour...@starbug.49.249.155> wrote in article
><sourcer...@starbug.49.249.155>...
>> In a game set in a spaceship, directions such as north, south etc
>don't
>> make a lot of sense. Is there any prefered way to handle this? I was
>> thinking about assigning directions with north-south along the central
>axis
>> of the ship, with up and down more or less arbitrary.
>>
>> has anybody else come up with a solution to this problem?
>>
>maybe use direction names used by aircraft
>I don't know check your local library for books about planes
>and names for directions.
What, you mean: "Bandits at twelve o'clock" ???
Seriously, it's the same convention for ALL ships, including aerial
ones: fore, aft, port and starboard.
Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) <mas.su...@easynet.co.uk>
IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ?
Bill Hoggett
On 20-Nov-96 Beej! <be...@ecst.csuchico.edu> wrote:
>In article <wwan2wd...@bommel.math.ruu.nl>,
>Bruce Stephens <step...@math.ruu.nl> wrote:
>>Yes, and then they just carry them around. I mean, it would seem to
>>make sense to wear a rucksack, but no...
>But didn't you know? All adventurers automatically carry "implied
>rucksacks".
Nope. You obviously don't remember all those games where you can only
carry up to four objects, even if they're only four pebbles.
Here's something else that's always been bothering me: Why do all
adventurers insist on *carrying* their swords, when most people
would *wear* them in some way thus leaving their hands free ?
Carl Muckenhoupt
mas.su...@easynet.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) writes:
>Seriously, it's the same convention for ALL ships, including aerial
>ones: fore, aft, port and starboard.
Try Brainscape (in the games/dos/educational at GMD) for the only
game I know that doesn't use N/S/E/W or fore/aft/port/starboard.
It takes place inside a human brain, and thus uses anatomical
directions: dorsal, ventral, rostral, caudal...
--
Carl Muckenhoupt | Text Adventures are not dead!
b...@tiac.net | Read rec.[arts|games].int-fiction to see
http://www.tiac.net/users/baf | what you're missing!
George Caswell
<shrug> If there's gravity, 'up' and 'down' are just dandy. if not, well,
then no directions are going to have a whole lot of meaning without that
reference.
David Fletcher
Bill Hoggett (mas.su...@easynet.co.uk) wrote:
> What, you mean: "Bandits at twelve o'clock" ???
> Seriously, it's the same convention for ALL ships, including aerial
> ones: fore, aft, port and starboard.
Pilots might also use upwind, downwind and crosswind. Still, that
won't be much use to you in space.
If you're in orbit, you could have planetside, spaceside, orbitwise
and antiorbitwise. And, er, depending on the orbit, maybe
thispolewards and thatpolewards. :-)
--
David Fletcher
"You can't go that way." - a quote from nameless-work-in-progress.
Matthew T. Russotto
In article <801.690...@easynet.co.uk>,
Bill Hoggett <mas.su...@easynet.co.uk> wrote:
}Here's something else that's always been bothering me: Why do all
}adventurers insist on *carrying* their swords, when most people
}would *wear* them in some way thus leaving their hands free ?
Elvish scabbards didn't hold up nearly as well as Elvish swords.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
George Caswell
On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, John Hartnup wrote:
> George Caswell (timb...@adamant.res.wpi.edu) wrote:
>
> : > If the spaceship rotates to produce artificial gravity, then you could
> : > base directions on this. ie when looking at the earth from above the
> : > north pole it spins anti-clockwise (?), so decide what direction (if you
> : > looked at the ship from outside would it be spinning anti-clockwise (the
> : > front would probably preferable).
> : >
> : Huh? Why is the direction of spin important? (Unless, of course, you want
> : to describe what the player sees outside...)
>
> Merely because it provides a point of reference in the same way as Earth's
> axis of rotation does.
>
But no one takes their points of reference directly from the direction of
the Earth's spin... from the -results- of the spin, maybe, (such as the
apparent movement of stars and planets...) but not from the spin itself-- the
spin itself isn't apparent on Earth, and it probably wouldn't be from within
the centrifuge, either, unless you had a fixed point of reference outside that
frame.. so calling the direction of spin 'east' seems completely arbitrary.
Den of Iniquity
On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, Cardinal Teulbachs wrote:
> Den of Iniquity <dms...@york.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >(well, the phrases 'up north', 'down south' are already well established
> >in Britain...)
>
> As are "back east" and "out west" in the US.
>
> At least we *have* an east and west <sniff>.
As a Lancastrian living in York, I'm more than aware of east and west,
thank you very much.
(Den swings a mighty blow)
> (Cardinal ducks)
(Den pirouettes comically, in an anticlockwise direction when viewed from
above, thus establishing a kind of arbitrary 'southness' at his head and
'northness' at his feet when compared with the planet Earth, as
hypothesised in an earlier thread...)
--
Den '...buttons...' - Cardinal T.
Stephen Granade
In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.961125...@adamant.res.wpi.edu>
> But no one takes their points of reference directly from the
> direction of the Earth's spin... from the -results- of the spin, maybe,
> (such as the apparent movement of stars and planets...) but not from the
> spin itself-- the spin itself isn't apparent on Earth
Pardon? Earth's spin gives rise to the "fictitious"* centrifugal and
Coriolis forces.
Stephen
* Not that these forces are really all that fictitious--think of the
British gunboats in the Faulklands in the 1980's.
--
Stephen Granade | "It takes character to withstand the
sgra...@phy.duke.edu | rigors of indolence."
Duke University, Physics Dept | -- from _The Madness of King George_
-
George Caswell (timb...@adamant.res.wpi.edu) wrote:
> > If the spaceship rotates to produce artificial gravity, then you could
> > base directions on this. ie when looking at the earth from above the
> > north pole it spins anti-clockwise (?), so decide what direction (if you
> > looked at the ship from outside would it be spinning anti-clockwise (the
> > front would probably preferable).
> >
> Huh? Why is the direction of spin important? (Unless, of course, you want
> to describe what the player sees outside...)
It doesn't matter. I just though that it would be a convenient standard
that would be consistent with the Earth.
Nicholas Daley
<mailto:dal...@ihug.co.nz>
George Caswell
On 26 Nov 1996, Stephen Granade wrote:
> In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.961125...@adamant.res.wpi.edu>
> George Caswell <timb...@adamant.res.wpi.edu> writes:
> > But no one takes their points of reference directly from the
> > direction of the Earth's spin... from the -results- of the spin, maybe,
> > (such as the apparent movement of stars and planets...) but not from the
> > spin itself-- the spin itself isn't apparent on Earth
>
> Pardon? Earth's spin gives rise to the "fictitious"* centrifugal and
> Coriolis forces.
>
None of which are readily apparent to a person on the Earth-- and so none
of this really has much meaning to the player or player character in IF.
Stephen Granade
In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.961126...@adamant.res.wpi.edu>
> On 26 Nov 1996, Stephen Granade wrote:
>
> > George Caswell <timb...@adamant.res.wpi.edu> writes:
> > > But no one takes their points of reference directly from the
> > > direction of the Earth's spin... from the -results- of the spin,
> > > maybe, (such as the apparent movement of stars and planets...) but
> > > not from the spin itself-- the spin itself isn't apparent on Earth
> >
> > Pardon? Earth's spin gives rise to the "fictitious"* centrifugal and
> > Coriolis forces.
> >
> None of which are readily apparent to a person on the Earth-- and so
> none of this really has much meaning to the player or player character
> in IF.
Depends on what you mean by readily apparent. If you mean the PC won't
notice the forces when he/she drops items, then I'd agree. If you mean
the PC won't notice that hurricanes are spinning...
Stephen
John Hartnup
George Caswell (timb...@adamant.res.wpi.edu) wrote:
: On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, John Hartnup wrote:
: > : Huh? Why is the direction of spin important? (Unless, of course, you want
: > : to describe what the player sees outside...)
: > Merely because it provides a point of reference in the same way as Earth's
: > axis of rotation does.
: >
: But no one takes their points of reference directly from the direction of
: the Earth's spin... from the -results- of the spin, maybe, (such as the
: apparent movement of stars and planets...)
Such as the bloody great magnetic field maintained by that spin....? Don't
forget that "north" *means* "towards the pole where the earth's axis meets
the surface" (as does "south").
: but not from the spin itself-- the
: spin itself isn't apparent on Earth, and it probably wouldn't be from within
: the centrifuge, either, unless you had a fixed point of reference outside that
: frame.. so calling the direction of spin 'east' seems completely arbitrary.
As are NESW on earth, unless you happen to either know about the spin, or
happen to have a free-floating magnet (and remember magnetic N != N)
George Caswell
On 27 Nov 1996, Stephen Granade wrote:
> Depends on what you mean by readily apparent. If you mean the PC won't
> notice the forces when he/she drops items, then I'd agree. If you mean
> the PC won't notice that hurricanes are spinning...
>
I mean that people do not associate the direction of the earth's spin
directly with the cardinal points on the compass, so using this relationship
to define directions in a centrifuge as compass points is just as arbitrary
and meaningless as assigning them randomly.
Hurricanes have nothing to do with it... A person would notice the
hurricane, but -not- the cause. No way they're going to say 'ah, the
whatchamacallit forces at work.' The hurricane forms a good deal of time
before the person sees it, and a good distance away.
George Caswell
On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Greg Ewing wrote:
> > Don't
> > forget that "north" *means* "towards the pole where the earth's axis meets
> > the surface" (as does "south").
>
That doesn't apply to a centrifuge. On the Earth, the axis actually meets
the 'down' surface. In a centrifuge, it can't.
> Spin axis, not magnetic axis (which is about 20 degrees away
> from the spin axis).
>
I still say this is completely trivial. People aren't aware of the spin of
the Earth- only of certain effects that result from it- sunrise, sunset,
etc. Assigning absolute directions in an isolated centrifuge based on the
direction of centrifuge spin is just as much nonsense, from the player's
perspective, as assigning them completely at random. Someone within the
centrifuge would probably not be able to tell which way it was spinning most
of the time- since they move with the 'floor' the only sense of motion they
have is the floor pushing them toward the axis. The only exceptions I can
think of are a viewport- a significant exception, but probably won't apply to
every room (how many offices in office buildings have windows, through which
employees could look at sunrise/sunset?) and the object within the centrifuge
changing the amount of force applied to it by moving with or against the
floor in its direction of motion at a speed great enough to make the change
apparent-- in which case the person would notice a change in gravity....
...Bottom line being, nothing on board a spaceship can -really- make a
person think to themselves 'this way is east' or 'this way is north'... they
are really very Terran concepts. Any inclusion of them must be arbitrary,
whether or not it follows some convention the person may not even be aware of.
Greg Ewing
John Hartnup wrote:
>
> Such as the bloody great magnetic field maintained by that spin....?
The magnetic field of the Earth is not caused by its
spin, as far as I'm aware.
> Don't
> forget that "north" *means* "towards the pole where the earth's axis meets
> the surface" (as does "south").
Spin axis, not magnetic axis (which is about 20 degrees away
from the spin axis).
Greg
Andrew Plotkin
George Caswell (timb...@adamant.res.wpi.edu) wrote:
> ...Bottom line being, nothing on board a spaceship can -really- make a
> person think to themselves 'this way is east' or 'this way is north'... they
> are really very Terran concepts. Any inclusion of them must be arbitrary,
> whether or not it follows some convention the person may not even be aware of.
How does this differ from directions on the Earth? As you spent much time
pointing out, almost nobody pays any attention to spin effects, or even
compasses. A modern human's idea of "north" is entirely arbitrary, and we
get it from maps that have a "north" arrow printed on them.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Roger Carbol
An exception to the "directions are utterly arbitrary in space"
situation
might occur in a spacecraft which was so large, or for some other
reason,
that it had time zones. IE the "day" and "night" shifts were not
identical
throughout the entire ship, but rather the "day" creeps along the ship
from
one end to the other, followed by night.
In that case, people may find it more comfortable to refer to the
direction
from which day comes as East.
Or possibly not.
Roger Carbol .. r...@col.ca .. hark, the sun
John Hartnup
Greg Ewing (gr...@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz) wrote:
: John Hartnup wrote:
: >
: > Such as the bloody great magnetic field maintained by that spin....?
: The magnetic field of the Earth is not caused by its
: spin, as far as I'm aware.
I believe the spin keeps the magnetic field pointing the direction it
does. I don't have any books on the matter to hand -- perhaps someone
could have a peek in an encyclopaedia?
: > Don't
: > forget that "north" *means* "towards the pole where the earth's axis meets
: > the surface" (as does "south").
: Spin axis, not magnetic axis (which is about 20 degrees away
: from the spin axis).
... As I pointed out (in the part of my post you chose to snip). I think
it's less than 20 degrees, but again, time for someone to look in
reliable source).
Magnetic north is constantly moving (Orienteering maps use magnetic
North, and they're out of date within two years)... but it's always
pretty near true north. Coincidence?
I await a post from a geographer or physicist.
: Greg
Andrew Plotkin
John Hartnup (sl...@ladle.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> : The magnetic field of the Earth is not caused by its
> : spin, as far as I'm aware.
> I believe the spin keeps the magnetic field pointing the direction it
> does.
The field is caused by gigantic slow currents in the core of the Earth,
which are intimately connected with the Earth's spin, if not not "caused
by" per se.
> Magnetic north is constantly moving (Orienteering maps use magnetic
> North, and they're out of date within two years)... but it's always
> pretty near true north. Coincidence?
Except when there's a field inversion, after which it's pretty near true
south. (No, there hasn't been an inversion in recorded history.)
> I await a post from a geographer or physicist.
I ain't one.
George Caswell
On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, John Hartnup wrote:
> : > Don't
> : > forget that "north" *means* "towards the pole where the earth's axis meets
> : > the surface" (as does "south").
>
> : Spin axis, not magnetic axis (which is about 20 degrees away
> : from the spin axis).
>
> ... As I pointed out (in the part of my post you chose to snip). I think
> it's less than 20 degrees, but again, time for someone to look in
> reliable source).
>
It varies both with time and with location. I think through the
north/eastern U.S it's around 17 degrees. But because the two points on the
globe form a line, there are locations on that line, and so there are places
where the deviation is 0 degrees, and since there are places in between them,
there are places where it's 180 degrees...
George Caswell
On 2 Dec 1996, Roger Carbol wrote:
> An exception to the "directions are utterly arbitrary in space"
> situation
> might occur in a spacecraft which was so large, or for some other
> reason,
> that it had time zones. IE the "day" and "night" shifts were not
That wouldn't make much sense ... if some part of the crew had to take over
for some other... wouldn't be useful to have people dealing with
'ship-cross-lag'... there would probably be no real reason to stagger
'day/night' shifts based on the place in the ship...
John Hartnup
Greg Ewing (gr...@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz) wrote:
: > Don't
: > forget that "north" *means* "towards the pole where the earth's axis meets
: > the surface" (as does "south").
: Spin axis, not magnetic axis (which is about 20 degrees away
: from the spin axis).
From a UK map :
"Grid magnetic angle 05 degrees 00 minutes(89 mils)W of Grid North June
1997 at the centre of the grid. Annual Change of about 07 minutes (2
mils) E"
Of course, the angle depends where you are : if you stand halfway
between the magnetic north pole and the true north pole, the angle would
(obviously) be 180 degrees...
And as Andrew Plotkin pointed out, the polarity of the magnetic field
sometimes flips. Not often. Hey -- what if it were to happen halfway
through an IF adventure?
John
-
Greg Ewing wrote:
>
> John Hartnup wrote:
> >
> > Such as the bloody great magnetic field maintained by that spin....?
>
> spin, as far as I'm aware.
[snip]
I'm pretty sure I recall my teacher in Physics classes saying it was.
I don't remember why at the moment though.
Nicholas Daley
<mailto:dal...@ihug.co.nz>
Magnus Olsson
In article <E1ss...@ladle.demon.co.uk>,
John Hartnup <sl...@ladle.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Greg Ewing (gr...@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz) wrote:
>: John Hartnup wrote:
>: >
>: > Such as the bloody great magnetic field maintained by that spin....?
>
>: The magnetic field of the Earth is not caused by its
>: spin, as far as I'm aware.
>
>could have a peek in an encyclopaedia?
The Earth's magnetic field is believed to be caused by currents in the
Earth's outer core (which consists mainly of liquid metal). The Earth
as a whole rotates, taking the core with it, but since the outer part
of the core is liquid it has considerable freedom to move in other
ways as well (there are, for example, convection streams).
>Magnetic north is constantly moving (Orienteering maps use magnetic
>North, and they're out of date within two years)... but it's always
>pretty near true north. Coincidence?
We don't really know. But the magnetic field flips over every few million
years, so magnetic north is definitley not "always pretty near true north".
Ans if we look at other planes, we get magnetic fields that are much
more tilted from the planet's rotation axis than that of the Earth. I think
it's either Uranus or Neptune that has a magnetic field whose symmetry axis
doesn't even pass through the planet's centre.
>I await a post from a geographer or physicist.
OK, this post came from a physicist with basically no competence in
geophysics except for what I remember from introductory undergrad
courses.
--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se)
George Caswell
On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Andrew Plotkin wrote:
> George Caswell (timb...@adamant.res.wpi.edu) wrote:
> > ...Bottom line being, nothing on board a spaceship can -really- make a
> > person think to themselves 'this way is east' or 'this way is north'... they
> > are really very Terran concepts. Any inclusion of them must be arbitrary,
> > whether or not it follows some convention the person may not even be aware of.
>
> How does this differ from directions on the Earth? As you spent much time
> pointing out, almost nobody pays any attention to spin effects, or even
> compasses. A modern human's idea of "north" is entirely arbitrary, and we
> get it from maps that have a "north" arrow printed on them.
>
Exactly. <g>
(meaning yes, I think 'implied compass' is something that doesn't belong
in adventures if we can come up with something better... which I think has
been done) But if directions on a globe are arbitrary, directions in an
isolated centrifuge are 10 times as much so. In a planetary game area it is
arbitrary, but makes sense. It has centuries (at least) of history and
tradition behind it, and is reinforced by the presence of the magnetic field
-and- the spin... Making such an arbitrary definition at some point in the
(fictional) future could work.. but game players won't recognize it, it will
seem just as arbitrary as saying 'this is up' in a scene in deep space EVA...
I can accept someone making such a decision, it's certainly a hell of a lot
easier than 'take 2' (sector system) will be, but I can't accept that it would
be the only, or somehow 'correct' choice. It's arbitrary.
Jason B Dyer
Distribution:
John Hartnup (sl...@ladle.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: And as Andrew Plotkin pointed out, the polarity of the magnetic field
: sometimes flips. Not often. Hey -- what if it were to happen halfway
: through an IF adventure?
One of those "choose-your-own-adventure" books did this. It was
a time travel story dealing with dinosaurs. Quite a good one,
actually.
Jason Dyer
jd...@u.arizona.edu
Neil K. Guy
John Hartnup (sl...@ladle.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: Magnetic north is constantly moving (Orienteering maps use magnetic
: North, and they're out of date within two years)... but it's always
: pretty near true north. Coincidence?
Well, what is currently north has been south in the past. More than once
too. Not while humans were around, but there's evidence for this in the
geological record. Right now magnetic north is wandering about up in
northern Canada, and declination from true north can vary quite a bit,
depending where you are. Over some 20 degrees in some places.
: I await a post from a geographer or physicist.
You probably want a geologist, really. I'm a geographer (in name if
nothing else) but hardly specialize in geomagnetics.
- Neil K. Guy
--
the Vancouver CommunityNet * http://www.vcn.bc.ca/
(formerly the Vancouver Regional FreeNet)
Graham Nelson
In article <E1uv...@ladle.demon.co.uk>, John Hartnup
<URL:mailto:sl...@ladle.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> From a UK map :
>
> "Grid magnetic angle 05 degrees 00 minutes(89 mils)W of Grid North June
> 1997 at the centre of the grid. Annual Change of about 07 minutes (2
> mils) E"
Hmm. Perhaps this could be an angular variation on that
"abolish the rooms convention" thread. Why not abolish
N, S, E, SE and so on, and type directions like:
> GO 45'07"
> And as Andrew Plotkin pointed out, the polarity of the magnetic field
> sometimes flips. Not often. Hey -- what if it were to happen halfway
> through an IF adventure?
I suppose all the birds would get lost. Otherwise it might
be rather like the Mobius Strip in "Trinity"...
--
Graham Nelson | gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom
Stephen Granade
On a slightly off-topic subject...
Has anyone here played "Empire of the Overmind" by Avalon Hill? (Yes,
you in the back, I know AH made mostly wargames, but this was an
honest-to-goodness text adventure from the early 1980's, so you can put
your hand down now.) Rather than using compass directions, it used a "go
[to] <location>" syntax. This bothered me initially, but I soon became
used to typing "go road" to get around.
George Caswell
On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Graham Nelson wrote:
> In article <E1uv...@ladle.demon.co.uk>, John Hartnup
> <URL:mailto:sl...@ladle.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > From a UK map :
> >
> > "Grid magnetic angle 05 degrees 00 minutes(89 mils)W of Grid North June
> > 1997 at the centre of the grid. Annual Change of about 07 minutes (2
> > mils) E"
>
> Hmm. Perhaps this could be an angular variation on that
> "abolish the rooms convention" thread. Why not abolish
> N, S, E, SE and so on, and type directions like:
>
> > GO 45'07"
>
I can see certain, specific, very limited examples used in 'take two' where
it might, almost be useful. (The near-infinite desert, which is IMHO one of
the stronger examples of a game area which -should not- be split into rooms.)
As mentioned in the thread, I think very specific control over the player's
movement could be very useful in some very specific circumstances. In general
I think it's pretty clear that giving the player such specific requirements
for their movements is unreasonable in a text game. If someone can give us a
bona-fide (useful) example of a game scene where it wouldn't be unreasonable,
I'd like to see it.
Besides, who wants absolute directions anyway??
George Caswell
On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Stephen Granade wrote:
> On a slightly off-topic subject...
>
> Has anyone here played "Empire of the Overmind" by Avalon Hill? (Yes,
> you in the back, I know AH made mostly wargames, but this was an
> honest-to-goodness text adventure from the early 1980's, so you can put
> your hand down now.) Rather than using compass directions, it used a "go
> [to] <location>" syntax. This bothered me initially, but I soon became
> used to typing "go road" to get around.
>
Not really off-topic after the whole 'take-two' incident. (Be afraid.
Take three may yet visit r.a.i-f) Never played that one, but Nord N' Bert is
an Infocom example of a dual-system... Basically it used what I call
equivalent areas or areas of trivial movement... anyplace you've been, you
can go by naming it (Of course, naming seemed to be the thing in Nord N'
Bert... silly naming.) I think it worked in Nord N' Bert because it wasn't
real big on the traditional I-F elements like <sarcasm> navigation, story, or
any of that other fluff, and concentrated on the -REAL- stuff, like PUNS!
</sarcasm> Given that there weren't a large number of locations available at
any given time, this type of movement worked for Nord N' Bert.
Should I assume the game you refer to used named-movement for each step of
the way, and didn't have any auto-nav between non-adjacent locations? Do you
consider this game a special case, for this style of movement to have worked,
or did the method itself just work for you?
Stephen Granade
On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, George Caswell wrote:
[Stuff about "Overmind"'s nav system snipped]
> Should I assume the game you refer to used named-movement for each step of
> the way, and didn't have any auto-nav between non-adjacent locations? Do you
> consider this game a special case, for this style of movement to have worked,
> or did the method itself just work for you?
Yes, the game had no auto-nav; you had to type "go <x>" at every step.
This is the only game I've ever played like this. The method took a bit
to get used to, but it worked for me. My only complaint was that it
slowed down my progress through certain sections, since I couldn't type
"n.n.e.n.sw.d.n"
Robert Fisher
> > And as Andrew Plotkin pointed out, the polarity of the magnetic field
> > sometimes flips. Not often. Hey -- what if it were to happen halfway
> > through an IF adventure?
If the game were set on Earth, this would happen eventually, but I don't
think a several million year long game would fit into even a .z8 story
file.
> Otherwise it might
> be rather like the Mobius Strip in "Trinity"...
>
> Graham Nelson |
Klein bottle! I thought you were supposed to be a geometer!
Mark J Musante
Robert Fisher (COP9...@shef.ac.uk) wrote:
> > > And as Andrew Plotkin pointed out, the polarity of the magnetic field
> > > sometimes flips. Not often. Hey -- what if it were to happen halfway
> > > through an IF adventure?
>
> If the game were set on Earth, this would happen eventually, but I don't
> think a several million year long game would fit into even a .z8 story
> file.
Sure it could:
o You could start the game off in the Jurassic period, have
the PC concoct some sort of Strange Brew which puts him to
sleep for a long time.
o You could have your PC invent a Time Machine which can
send him back far enough.
o You could have your PC devise a device to do the flipping.
and so on.
- Mark
Graham Nelson
In article <32AEA5...@shef.ac.uk>, Robert Fisher wrote:
> > Otherwise it might
> > be rather like the Mobius Strip in "Trinity"...
> >
> > Graham Nelson |
>
> Klein bottle! I thought you were supposed to be a geometer!
You can make a Klein bottle by sewing together Mobius strips
(I use "you" here in the loosest possible sense, that is,
"you" as some four-dimensional being). The path walked by
Wabewalker in "Trinity" is one of these strips: one that isn't
embedded in "our" copy of R^3.
And if I hear any more of that lip from the back there...
-
George Caswell wrote:
>
> Someone within the
> centrifuge would probably not be able to tell which way it was spinning most
> of the time- since they move with the 'floor' the only sense of motion they
> have is the floor pushing them toward the axis.
If they jumped (if it was a small enough centrifuge), or watched
something falling. They (or the thing) would move sideways because of
the coriolis force (which also causes a lot of Earth's winds) (don't ask
me how it works, I'm not a Physics wiz). The person, if they knew
enough about physics (which I don't), would be able to tell which way it
was spinning.
Nicholas Daley
<mailto:dal...@ihug.co.nz>
Not being picky, just something I thought I might mention
Robert Fisher
> You can make a Klein bottle by sewing together Mobius strips
I suppose you've heard it, but:
Q. what's nonorientable and lives in the sea?
A. Mobius Dick.
> (I use "you" here in the loosest possible sense, that is,
> "you" as some four-dimensional being).
How did you know? If I were five dimensional though, could I tie a sphere
in a knot?
> And if I hear any more of that lip from the back there...
Sorry sir.
John Hartnup
Mark J Musante (olo...@world.std.com) wrote:
: Sure it could:
Or just set the story at around the time when the flip occurs...
(Anyone know how long previous polarity flips took? Years, months,
weeks, days or hours?)
George Caswell
On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, John Hartnup wrote:
> Or just set the story at around the time when the flip occurs...
> (Anyone know how long previous polarity flips took? Years, months,
> weeks, days or hours?)
>
last I knew, they just knew that they -had- happened- from fossil
evidence.
________________________________________________
______________ _/> ____ | George Caswell, WPI CS 1999. Member L+L and |
<___ _________// _/<_ / | SOMA. Projectionist-in-training. MSTie #69762. |
// <> ___ < > / _/ | Linux + computer hobbyist. Admin of ADAMANT, a |
// /> / / _/ / / <____ | medium-powered Linux PC. Death to Microsoft! |
// </ <<</ < _/ <______/ |_For more info see http://www.wpi.edu/~timbuktu_|
</ </
Magnus Olsson
In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.96121...@adamant.res.wpi.edu>,
George Caswell <timb...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, John Hartnup wrote:
>
>> Or just set the story at around the time when the flip occurs...
>> (Anyone know how long previous polarity flips took? Years, months,
>> weeks, days or hours?)
>>
> last I knew, they just knew that they -had- happened- from fossil
>evidence.
The reversals can actually be timed quite accurately, by measuring the
thickness of the sediment layers with different magnetic polarity, by
measuring isotope distributions, etc. I don't remember any exact
figures, but I think the flip takes on the order of several thousands
or tens of thousands of years.
--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se)
bout...@blade.wcc.govt.nz
In article <32AFF9...@shef.ac.uk>, Robert Fisher <COP9...@shef.ac.uk> writes:
>> You can make a Klein bottle by sewing together Mobius strips
>
>I suppose you've heard it, but:
>
>Q. what's nonorientable and lives in the sea?
>
>A. Mobius Dick.
>
>> (I use "you" here in the loosest possible sense, that is,
>> "you" as some four-dimensional being).
>
Why did the chicken cross the mobius strip?
To get to the other AAAARGH!
-Giles
Judson Lester
In article <58rn7r$6...@bartlet.df.lth.se>,
Magnus Olsson <m...@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
>>On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, John Hartnup wrote:
>>
>>> Or just set the story at around the time when the flip occurs...
>>> (Anyone know how long previous polarity flips took? Years, months,
>>> weeks, days or hours?)>>>
>thickness of the sediment layers with different magnetic polarity, by
>measuring isotope distributions, etc. I don't remember any exact
>figures, but I think the flip takes on the order of several thousands
>or tens of thousands of years.
>
This isn't what the orginal poster wanted to know. (At least, it wasn't
what I wanted to know and my guess is that he had the same question in
mind.) Yes, several thousand years pass _between_ flips, but how long
does a flip take? And what happens in the interim? Does the strength of
Earth's magnetic field simply diminish to nothing and then reverse, or
does the axis of the field wander about 180 degrees?
Judson
Andrew Plotkin
Judson Lester (les...@whiskey.ee.tulane.edu) wrote:
> >The reversals can actually be timed quite accurately, by measuring the
> >thickness of the sediment layers with different magnetic polarity, by
> >measuring isotope distributions, etc. I don't remember any exact
> >figures, but I think the flip takes on the order of several thousands
> >or tens of thousands of years.
> This isn't what the orginal poster wanted to know. (At least, it wasn't
> what I wanted to know and my guess is that he had the same question in
> mind.) Yes, several thousand years pass _between_ flips, but how long
> does a flip take?
No, he was answering the question. :-) That's how long a flip takes.
Ok, I have here "American Scientist" magazine, Nov-Dec 1996, page 552:
"The Reversal of the Earth's Magnetic Field".
Well, I'll just summarize:
The last field reversal was 780,000 years ago. The present rate is between
one or two reversals per million years, but the rate has varied. (For
example, there was a period of no reversals which started 120 megayears
ago and ended 80 megayears ago.)
(So, yes, by the numbers, we could have one any tenth-of-a-megayear now.)
The reversal itself takes a few thousand years.
During a reversal, the field strength of the Earth decreases by about a
factor of ten, and the field direction fluctuates anomalously (at any
given measuring site.) It's not a simple case of a dipole field rotating
180 degrees. The whole thing gets messy, and sort of bubbly -- there's a
neat (entirely theoretical, computer simulated) picture of a sphere
halfway through (somebody's model of a) reversal, and it's got big
patches and bands of "north pole" and "south pole" wandering around the
planet.
(This is all background material in the article -- the article itself is
about some possible statistical results coming from our many samples of
the "messy" in-reversal field. I won't try to explain that. The real short
form is "It kinda looks like something which is directly influencing the
reversal is affected by fluid motion at the top of the Earth's core, or
possibly the other way around, and also by seismic wave velocity in the
lower mantle (which we think is affected by temperature), or possibly the
other way around, and the current field direction at the core surface ties
in there too. But this could all be a statistical artifact. We'll get back
to you.")
So, yes, a reversal could happen "soon", but it would probably take a
human lifetime to notice one starting up. Don't expect compasses to just
stop working some Tuesday afternoon.
And, to answer the *original* original question, yes, the magnetic field
is caused by the rotation of the Earth. When the planet is not in the
process of a reversal, the magnetic poles are always near the rotational
poles.
Magnus Olsson
In article <5974oa$j...@whiskey.ee.tulane.edu>,
Judson Lester <les...@whiskey.ee.tulane.edu> wrote:
>In article <58rn7r$6...@bartlet.df.lth.se>,
>Magnus Olsson <m...@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
>>>On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, John Hartnup wrote:
>>>
>>>> Or just set the story at around the time when the flip occurs...
>>>> (Anyone know how long previous polarity flips took? Years, months,
>>>> weeks, days or hours?)>>>
>>thickness of the sediment layers with different magnetic polarity, by
>>measuring isotope distributions, etc. I don't remember any exact
>>figures, but I think the flip takes on the order of several thousands
>>or tens of thousands of years.
>>
>
>
>
>This isn't what the orginal poster wanted to know. (At least, it wasn't
>what I wanted to know and my guess is that he had the same question in
>mind.) Yes, several thousand years pass _between_ flips, but how long
>does a flip take?
Huh? Did you actually *read* what I wrote? Please tell me where in the
quoted text above I talk about the time between flips (which IIRC is on
the order of several million years). Sorry to be rude, but I really
can't put it any nicer than this: please read posts carefully before
replying to them.
>And what happens in the interim? Does the strength of
>Earth's magnetic field simply diminish to nothing and then reverse, or
>does the axis of the field wander about 180 degrees?
I think you'll have to ask a geologist about that.
--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se)
Andrew Plotkin
Roger Carbol (r...@col.ca) wrote:
> Andrew Plotkin wrote:
> > During a reversal, the field strength of the Earth decreases by about a
> > factor of ten, and the field direction fluctuates anomalously (at any
> > given measuring site.) It's not a simple case of a dipole field rotating
> > 180 degrees. The whole thing gets messy, and sort of bubbly -- there's a
> > neat (entirely theoretical, computer simulated) picture of a sphere
> > halfway through (somebody's model of a) reversal, and it's got big
> > patches and bands of "north pole" and "south pole" wandering around the
> > planet.
> To get even farther off-topic, I'd bet the aurorae would look really
> cool during that time.
> Roger Carbol .. r...@col.ca .. ooh, the South-Eastern Lights
Heh. "Aurora Orientalis..." (unless I've munged my declensions.)
(But of course, "Aurora Borealis" means the "northern dawn", so "Aurora
Orientalis" is actually nothing out of the ordinary. Sigh.)
Roger Carbol
Den of Iniquity
On 17 Dec 1996, Judson Lester wrote:
>Yes, several thousand years pass _between_ flips, but how long
>does a flip take? And what happens in the interim? Does the strength of
>Earth's magnetic field simply diminish to nothing and then reverse, or
>does the axis of the field wander about 180 degrees?
AFAIK, it wanders through 180 degrees, does so in a relatively short time,
maybe a couple of years (A few months? Anyone?), and in the past has
appeared to have reversed following one of two paths (if considered in
terms of the poles 'travelling' across the surface of the globe).
But I do not profess to be an accurate source of information on such
topics and welcome any corrections to some/all of the above.
--
Den