Infinity in IF

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Chad Schultz

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Jan 18, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/18/00
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Now, haven't you ever thought that there weren't ever enough characters,
object, or locations in a game? An library with only 3 books, a city you can
only explore a single block on, and so on?

Why not have an infinite amount of locations?

Actually, this _could_ be done. For example, just create a couple generic
location objects for the area you want. Now, make each bit of code a method
(or a list, perhaps). At a specific point in the game (say, when the player
leaves the block), the properties of this location are randomized, and the
object is available for the player. Of course, it would probably be easier
to use dynamic objects, but that leaves you Inform users out in the could,
so you'll have to pull off some fakery. This works a lot better for scenery
objects and characters, especially those that only appear in the game for a
short time. Then the same object can be easily re-used in the same
situation. With enough work, you can give your players more realistic
environments that they can explore. Granted, only a few of these would
actually have _anything_ important or interesting, but it is still an
interesting idea. Of course, you can populate your locations with infinite
objects and characters. Go ahead and give your library a hundred books. Make
a city, population 1,000.

Now, this sort of thing has already been done, albeit with daemon messages,
but I'm talking about actual _object_ that the player can interact with.
Sure, there are a lot of holes, but this would make the game more realistic
and interesting for many people. Among other problems, that of having the
same exact properties for an object several times, and what to do when the
player _does_ visit a thousand different locations. But then again, older
rooms could be deleted, and the excuse given that the player is lost from
visiting so many rooms.

Chad Schultz (chads...@hotmail.com)
Insert Your Favorite Quote Here

Mikko P Vuorinen

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Jan 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/19/00
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In <38850...@speedtrap.i2k.com> "Chad Schultz" <chads...@hotmail.com> writes:

>Why not have an infinite amount of locations?

This reminds me of Jinxter. I spent an hour going west on that
Neverending Lane or whatever.

--
)))) (((( + Mikko Vuorinen + mvuo...@cc.helsinki.fi
)) OO `oo'((( + Dilbon@IRC&ifMUD + http://www.helsinki.fi/~mvuorine/
6 (_) ( ((( + GSM 050-5859733 +
`____c 8__/((( + + Tähän tilaan ei mahdu mitään.

Dan Shiovitz

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Jan 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/19/00
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In article <38850...@speedtrap.i2k.com>,

Chad Schultz <chads...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Now, haven't you ever thought that there weren't ever enough characters,
>object, or locations in a game? An library with only 3 books, a city you can
>only explore a single block on, and so on?
>
>Why not have an infinite amount of locations?
[..]

>interesting idea. Of course, you can populate your locations with infinite
>objects and characters. Go ahead and give your library a hundred books. Make
>a city, population 1,000.

Why would a library with a thousand randomly generated books be as
interesting as one with three well-described books?

--
Dan Shiovitz :: d...@cs.wisc.edu :: http://www.drizzle.com/~dans
"He settled down to dictate a letter to the Consolidated Nailfile and
Eyebrow Tweezer Corporation of Scranton, Pa., which would make them
realize that life is stern and earnest and Nailfile and Eyebrow Tweezer
Corporations are not put in this world for pleasure alone." -PGW

J.D. Berry

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Jan 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/19/00
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In article <s8ae2k6...@corp.supernews.com>,
d...@cs.wisc.edu (Dan Shiovitz) wrote:

> Why would a library with a thousand randomly generated books be as
> interesting as one with three well-described books?
>

With the former you will eventually discover the book on how to
solve the game. Some of the titles will be randomly hilarious. Some
will be thought provoking. Some will be cleverly risque.

With the latter you will get only a clue or two and maybe a little
background.

Ignoring the many books that wouldn't be interesting under said format,
Jim
;-D


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Joe Mason

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Jan 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/19/00
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Chad Schultz <chads...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>object is available for the player. Of course, it would probably be easier
>to use dynamic objects, but that leaves you Inform users out in the could,
>so you'll have to pull off some fakery. This works a lot better for scenery

Actually, it doesn't - Inform has dynamic objects. There's just a finite
number of them. But then, TADS also has a finite number of dynamic objects,
although I'm not sure whether it actually knows to stop creating them when you
run out of memory or just crashes the interpreter.

Joe

Jason Peter Brown

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Jan 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/19/00
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Guild of Thieves by Magnetic Scrolls had a library with tonnes of books,
some of which had pretty funny titles. It was a nice effect, I thought,
although you could be "wasting" a lot of time in there from some peoples
perspective I guess.

J.D. Berry <jdb...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:864hfh$4um$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

Iain Merrick

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Jan 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/19/00
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J.D. Berry wrote:

> d...@cs.wisc.edu (Dan Shiovitz) wrote:
>
> > Why would a library with a thousand randomly generated books be as
> > interesting as one with three well-described books?
>
> With the former you will eventually discover the book on how to
> solve the game. Some of the titles will be randomly hilarious. Some
> will be thought provoking. Some will be cleverly risque.

You're confusing 'randomly-generated' with, uh, 'random' here.

Monkey Island II had a library with _lots_ of books, but they weren't
randomly generated. Most of them were just random jokes, but they were
random jokes by random _people_, not created on-the-fly by the computer.

Daniel Barkalow

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Jan 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/19/00
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On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Chad Schultz wrote:

> Now, haven't you ever thought that there weren't ever enough characters,
> object, or locations in a game? An library with only 3 books, a city you can
> only explore a single block on, and so on?
>
> Why not have an infinite amount of locations?
>

> Actually, this _could_ be done. For example, just create a couple generic
> location objects for the area you want. Now, make each bit of code a method
> (or a list, perhaps). At a specific point in the game (say, when the player
> leaves the block), the properties of this location are randomized, and the

> object is available for the player. Of course, it would probably be easier
> to use dynamic objects, but that leaves you Inform users out in the could,
> so you'll have to pull off some fakery.

I've been vaguely considering a game based on the Gormenghast novels, with
a map that was randomly generated and changed when you weren't
around. Some characters would be able to navigate, and you could figure
out stuff by following them.

I've written code for a maze of random locations which isn't difficult to
get through, but requires attention and is surreal. Unfortunately, I'm not
sure exactly where I'm going with the rest of the game at this point.

-Iabervon
*This .sig unintentionally changed*


J.D. Berry

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Jan 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/19/00
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In article <3885EC...@cs.york.ac.uk>,

Iain Merrick <i...@cs.york.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> You're confusing 'randomly-generated' with, uh, 'random' here.
>

> Monkey Island II had a library with _lots_ of books, but they weren't
> randomly generated. Most of them were just random jokes, but they were
> random jokes by random _people_, not created on-the-fly by the
computer.

Yikes, criticism to a tongue-in-cheek post. But funny you should
mention Monkey. That's what I was going on, the monkeys at a
typewriter idea. Eventually something good will appear. So I did mean
computer (randomly) generated titles and that how it does so IS random
(not planned.)

I do realize one may have "jokes on the side" and that people can come
up with them. I realize a 1000 book library _could_ be created by a
human. But the randomness would come only from the reader. Give me
book, oh, let's say 345. "A Sale of Two..."

Weren't we talking about a "very large number" of things?
A perfect job for our simian or silicon friends. Especially if we
were just monkeying around.

Irrelevance is not necessarily random,
Jim

Dan Schmidt

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Jan 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/19/00
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d...@cs.wisc.edu (Dan Shiovitz) writes:

| Why would a library with a thousand randomly generated books be as
| interesting as one with three well-described books?

Find out:

http://jubal.westnet.com/hyperdiscordia/library_of_babel.html

--
Dan Schmidt | http://www.dfan.org

Adam Cadre

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Jan 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/19/00
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Iain Merrick wrote:
> Monkey Island II had a library with _lots_ of books, but they weren't
> randomly generated. Most of them were just random jokes, but they were
> random jokes by random _people_, not created on-the-fly by the
> computer.

As it happens, I was one of those people. My first foray into the
world of computer game authorship... of course, they didn't credit me,
the bastards.

-----
Adam Cadre, Sammamish, WA
http://adamcadre.ac

Digby McWiggle

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Jan 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/19/00
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>Why not have an infinite amount of locations?

Downtown Tokyo from the 1998 competition DOES have an infinite number of
locations. Most of them are not very interesting though.

Digby

Kevin Forchione

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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"J.D. Berry" <jdb...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8655i5$l0p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

> Yikes, criticism to a tongue-in-cheek post. But funny you should
> mention Monkey. That's what I was going on, the monkeys at a
> typewriter idea. Eventually something good will appear. So I did mean
> computer (randomly) generated titles and that how it does so IS random
> (not planned.)

How does that old chestnut go? An infinite number of monkeys at an infinite
number of typewriters, typing away for infinity? I wonder what Charles
Darwin would have to say about that?

--Kevin

Ross Presser

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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alt.distinguishe...@hotmail.com (Digby
McWiggle).wrote.posted.offered:

>
>>Why not have an infinite amount of locations?
>
>Downtown Tokyo from the 1998 competition DOES have an infinite
>number of locations. Most of them are not very interesting though.

I wonder if it's theoretically possible to have an unlimited number of
*interesting* locations (or things of any category). Oh Dr. Hilbert
...

--
Ross Presser
ross_p...@imtek.com
"And if you're the kind of person who parties with a bathtub full of
pasta, I suspect you don't care much about cholesterol anyway."

Dan Shiovitz

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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In article <uNNc2WzY$GA.162@cpmsnbbsa02>,

"Eeeagh! Iron bird!"

>--Kevin

Philip Goetz

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Jan 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/20/00
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Chad Schultz <chads...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:38850...@speedtrap.i2k.com...

> Now, haven't you ever thought that there weren't ever enough characters,
> object, or locations in a game? An library with only 3 books, a city you
can
> only explore a single block on, and so on?
>
> Why not have an infinite amount of locations?

And what I was thinking is, haven't you often felt that there just wasn't
enough information in some of my posts? Wouldn't it be better to have
an /infinite/ amount of sentences in my posts? If I were to hook up my
newsposter to a statistical sentence-generator, and a huge database of
sentences, I could just generate an infinite number of monkeys at an
infinite number of typewriters, including the early Remington typewriters,
which were produced by Remington and Winchester were the earliest
rifles popular in the American west. The Winchester house, just outside
of San Francisco you can find some of the best seafood in the U.S. at
Fisherman's Wharf hypothesis, which says that the language you use to
speak in tongues, and have not love, it is as the beating of drums or the
clanging of the trolley on Lombard Street, with its famous view of San
Francisco bay...

I don't like the idea of an infinite number of locations in a
puzzle-based game, or a narrative-based game. It would be OK
in a hack 'n slash game like Diablo or Rogue or Moria, but I think
that's about it. It's /terrible/ in a puzzle-based game.

Phil Goetz


TenthStone

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
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On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 04:06:44 GMT, d...@cs.wisc.edu (Dan Shiovitz)
wrote:

>In article <38850...@speedtrap.i2k.com>,
>Chad Schultz <chads...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>Now, haven't you ever thought that there weren't ever enough characters,
>>object, or locations in a game? An library with only 3 books, a city you can
>>only explore a single block on, and so on?
>>
>>Why not have an infinite amount of locations?

>[..]
>>interesting idea. Of course, you can populate your locations with infinite
>>objects and characters. Go ahead and give your library a hundred books. Make
>>a city, population 1,000.
>

>Why would a library with a thousand randomly generated books be as
>interesting as one with three well-described books?

You could pass it off as an accurate simulation of a business
management library. Hell, you could market it.

"The proportion of inconstant paradigms in the global marketplace
increases with respect to the profitability of the market sector."


BrenBarn

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
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>And what I was thinking is, haven't you often felt that there just wasn't
>enough information in some of my posts? Wouldn't it be better to have
>an /infinite/ amount of sentences in my posts? If I were to hook up my
>newsposter to a statistical sentence-generator, and a huge database of
>sentences, I could just generate an infinite number of monkeys at an
>infinite number of typewriters, including the early Remington typewriters,
>which were produced by Remington and Winchester were the earliest
>rifles popular in the American west. The Winchester house, just outside
>of San Francisco you can find some of the best seafood in the U.S. at
>Fisherman's Wharf hypothesis, which says that the language you use to
>speak in tongues, and have not love, it is as the beating of drums or the
>clanging of the trolley on Lombard Street, with its famous view of San
>Francisco bay...
Hilarious! The scary thing is, I often find myself talking like that :-).

From,
Brendan B. B. (Bren...@aol.com)
(Name in header has spam-blocker, use the address above instead.)

"Do not follow where the path may lead;
go, instead, where there is no path, and leave a trail."
--Author Unknown

Adam J. Thornton

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
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In article <864hfh$4um$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

J.D. Berry <jdb...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> d...@cs.wisc.edu (Dan Shiovitz) wrote:
>> Why would a library with a thousand randomly generated books be as
>> interesting as one with three well-described books?
>With the former you will eventually discover the book on how to
>solve the game. Some of the titles will be randomly hilarious. Some
>will be thought provoking. Some will be cleverly risque.

Paging Librarian Borges, paging Librarian Borges.

Adam
--
ad...@princeton.edu
"My eyes say their prayers to her / Sailors ring her bell / Like a moth
mistakes a light bulb / For the moon and goes to hell." -- Tom Waits

Ross Presser

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
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alt.disting...@princeton.edu (Adam J.
Thornton).wrote.posted.offered:

>In article <864hfh$4um$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>J.D. Berry <jdb...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> d...@cs.wisc.edu (Dan Shiovitz) wrote:
>>> Why would a library with a thousand randomly generated books be as
>>> interesting as one with three well-described books?
>>With the former you will eventually discover the book on how to
>>solve the game. Some of the titles will be randomly hilarious. Some
>>will be thought provoking. Some will be cleverly risque.
>
>Paging Librarian Borges, paging Librarian Borges.

I wonder which volume of the Library contains this conversation? I'd
love to read ahead to see how it comes out.

Adam J. Thornton

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Jan 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/21/00
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In article <8EC2964D...@199.45.45.11>,

Ross Presser <rpre...@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid> wrote:
>I wonder which volume of the Library contains this conversation? I'd
>love to read ahead to see how it comes out.

Well, all you have to do is find the True Index, and that will tell you.
I'm sure it too is in the Library.

chads...@my-deja.com

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Jan 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/22/00
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In article <aEKh4.2897$Ve7....@iad-read.news.verio.net>,

"Philip Goetz" <pgo...@i-a-i.com> wrote:
> Chad Schultz <chads...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:38850...@speedtrap.i2k.com...
> > Now, haven't you ever thought that there weren't ever enough
characters,
> > object, or locations in a game? An library with only 3 books, a
city you
> can
> > only explore a single block on, and so on?
> >
> > Why not have an infinite amount of locations?
>
> And what I was thinking is, haven't you often felt that there just
wasn't
> enough information in some of my posts? Wouldn't it be better to have
> an /infinite/ amount of sentences in my posts
[snip]

> I don't like the idea of an infinite number of locations in a
> puzzle-based game, or a narrative-based game. It would be OK
> in a hack 'n slash game like Diablo or Rogue or Moria, but I think
> that's about it. It's /terrible/ in a puzzle-based game.
>
> Phil Goetz
>

OK, maybe I should rephrase it. There _are_ interesting
objects/locations/characters, but only a few (as normal). _However_,
you _can_ explore as many dynamically created objects as you want.
Those would add atmosphere and make it seem as if it's not
so "confined". At least I think so, anyway.

Chad Schultz (chads...@hotmail.com)

Neil K.

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Jan 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/22/00
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chads...@my-deja.com wrote:

> OK, maybe I should rephrase it. There _are_ interesting
> objects/locations/characters, but only a few (as normal). _However_,
> you _can_ explore as many dynamically created objects as you want.
> Those would add atmosphere and make it seem as if it's not
> so "confined". At least I think so, anyway.

Six Stories has an infinite road in it. Well. Finite but with high bounds
- the limits of RAM, the TADS VM and the user's patience. I don't know if
it made it more atmospheric, as such, but it seemed a reasonable thing to
add.

- Neil K.

--
t e l a computer consulting + design * Vancouver, BC, Canada
web: http://www.tela.bc.ca/tela/ * email: tela @ tela.bc.ca

Andrew Plotkin

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Jan 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/23/00
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Neil K. <fake...@anti-spam.address> wrote:
> chads...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>> OK, maybe I should rephrase it. There _are_ interesting
>> objects/locations/characters, but only a few (as normal). _However_,
>> you _can_ explore as many dynamically created objects as you want.
>> Those would add atmosphere and make it seem as if it's not
>> so "confined". At least I think so, anyway.
>
> Six Stories has an infinite road in it. Well. Finite but with high bounds
> - the limits of RAM, the TADS VM and the user's patience. I don't know if
> it made it more atmospheric, as such, but it seemed a reasonable thing to
> add.

And _Hunter_ played some games here, too.

My theory -- and it seems to be supported by evidence -- is that players
don't count the number of rooms / objects / etc in your collection; they
count the number of words you wrote. That's the number that determines
how *big* the place feels.

_Enchanter_ had the original infinite road (and infinite stairway). The
description didn't change at all, after the first few rooms. You could
keep going, but you saw the same text. It felt very flat and dull -- which
was not undesirable, of course.

If you write three different room descriptions and randomly print one of
those, that's three times as good as one. But if you write six
half-descriptions (three beginnings and three endings), and pick randomly
there -- giving nine possible rooms -- that is not nine times as good as
one. Your players, not being idiots, will pick up on the repetitions.

I don't mean to disparage the effect -- I like it, and use it wherever
possible -- but ultimately you have to put in the writing time.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."

J.D. Berry

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Jan 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/23/00
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In article <fake-mail-220...@dialup05.nettwerk.com>,

fake...@anti-spam.address (Neil K.) wrote:
>
> Six Stories has an infinite road in it. Well. Finite but with high
> bounds--the limits of RAM, the TADS VM and the user's patience.

I walked all the way to Winnipeg on it only to be informed their hockey
team had left years ago. They had also dismantled much of their radio
comedy hall of fame. By this point I was very cold and could but
stutter my disappointment. B-B-B-Benny AND the Jets?

Next walk is to Rochester, Minnesota...
Jim

Philip Goetz

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Jan 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/23/00
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> > Why not have an infinite amount of locations?

> > I've been vaguely considering a game based on the Gormenghast novels,


with
> a map that was randomly generated and changed when you weren't
> around. Some characters would be able to navigate, and you could figure
> out stuff by following them.
>

> -Iabervon
> *This .sig unintentionally changed*

I spoke too soon -- I like this idea. The important thing, whether you use
finite or infinite locations, is to clue your player in to what' s
important.
A game like /Amnesia/, where you have 4,000 individually-described
locations with no relevance to the game, is OK as long as your player
doesn't think, when he gets stuck, that the answer must be somewhere
out there in those 4,000 locations. The infinite road in Enchanter was
obviously an infinite road; it was /good/ that the description repeated
itself.

(I think there were infinite locations in Scott Adams games, too; but
they didn't "stack"; you could move 100 times west and get back with 1
move east.)

So, under the classic paradigm of puzzle games (find items, find where
to use items), I think infinite locations, that aren't obviously infinite
locations, are a bad idea.


Phil


Mike Arnautov

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Jan 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/23/00
to
Chad Schultz <chads...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Why not have an infinite amount of locations?
>

>Actually, this _could_ be done.

It has been done. I have in my possession the FortranIV source of
Chimaera, written by one of our users, which did exactly that -- created
an infinite world, with infinite replicas of all (or most) objects in
the game. Don't think it ever made it off my employer's Primes, though.

The whole idea was sparked by an article in some magazine in the early
80s, which suggested a way of creating an infinite cave.

I suppose it is another thing I ought to be filing in the IF archive.

--
Mike Arnautov | From the heart
http://www.mipmip.demon.co.uk/mipmip.html | of the sweet peony,
mailto:m...@mipmip.demon.co-antispam-uk | a drunken bee.
Replace -antispam- with a single dot. | Basho

Joe Mason

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Jan 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/23/00
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J.D. Berry <jdb...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>I walked all the way to Winnipeg on it only to be informed their hockey
>team had left years ago. They had also dismantled much of their radio
>comedy hall of fame. By this point I was very cold and could but
>stutter my disappointment. B-B-B-Benny AND the Jets?

Oh, God. That was awful.

Joe

Magnus Olsson

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Jan 24, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/24/00
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In article <86f8l0$d5q$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>,

Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>And _Hunter_ played some games here, too.

I've been meaning to ask you since I first saw the game: Exactly how
did you do the cave? Is it truly infinite?


--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se, zeb...@pobox.com)
------ http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon ------

Andrew Plotkin

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Jan 24, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/24/00
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Magnus Olsson <m...@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
> In article <86f8l0$d5q$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>,
> Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>>And _Hunter_ played some games here, too.
>
> I've been meaning to ask you since I first saw the game: Exactly how
> did you do the cave? Is it truly infinite?

(some spoilers below)


It is not infinite. It could be really, really large -- the
description-generation code takes an integer and does mod/div tricks to
create text. It won't repeat until the least-common-multiple of every mod
factor I chose. But, of course, the Z-machine is 16-bit, so I limited it
to 32768 (positive) rooms.

Second April

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Jan 24, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/24/00
to
On 24 Jan 2000, Andrew Plotkin wrote:

> > I've been meaning to ask you since I first saw the game: Exactly how
> > did you do the cave? Is it truly infinite?
>
> (some spoilers below)
>
>
>


>
> It is not infinite. It could be really, really large -- the
> description-generation code takes an integer and does mod/div tricks to
> create text. It won't repeat until the least-common-multiple of every mod
> factor I chose. But, of course, the Z-machine is 16-bit, so I limited it
> to 32768 (positive) rooms.

Oh, is _that_ all? Sheesh. That'll teach me to give up on my map too
early.

;-)

Duncan Stevens
dns...@merle.acns.nwu.edu

But buy me a singer to sing one song--
Song about nothing--song about sheep--
Over and over, all day long;
Patch me again my thread-bare sleep.

--Edna St. Vincent Millay

Magnus Olsson

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Jan 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/25/00
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In article <86hvr8$8fk$1...@nntp3.atl.mindspring.net>,

Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>Magnus Olsson <m...@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
>> In article <86f8l0$d5q$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>,
>> Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>>>And _Hunter_ played some games here, too.
>>
>> I've been meaning to ask you since I first saw the game: Exactly how
>> did you do the cave? Is it truly infinite?
>
>(some spoilers below)
>
>
>
>
>It is not infinite. It could be really, really large -- the
>description-generation code takes an integer and does mod/div tricks to
>create text. It won't repeat until the least-common-multiple of every mod
>factor I chose. But, of course, the Z-machine is 16-bit, so I limited it
>to 32768 (positive) rooms.

Are the connections to other rooms also determined by some function
of the room number?

This is way cool (though I think it was a bit cruel of you not to
include in the first release that hint about mapping being
unnecessary).

Anyc chance the source code for the cave generator will be released?

Andrew Plotkin

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Jan 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/25/00
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Magnus Olsson <m...@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
> In article <86hvr8$8fk$1...@nntp3.atl.mindspring.net>,
> Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>>Magnus Olsson <m...@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
>>> In article <86f8l0$d5q$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>,
>>> Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>>>>And _Hunter_ played some games here, too.
>>>
>>> I've been meaning to ask you since I first saw the game: Exactly how
>>> did you do the cave? Is it truly infinite?
>>
>>(some spoilers below)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>It is not infinite. It could be really, really large -- the
>>description-generation code takes an integer and does mod/div tricks to
>>create text. It won't repeat until the least-common-multiple of every mod
>>factor I chose. But, of course, the Z-machine is 16-bit, so I limited it
>>to 32768 (positive) rooms.
>
> Are the connections to other rooms also determined by some function
> of the room number?

Yes, a very carefully massaged function. The whole thing is deterministic.



> This is way cool (though I think it was a bit cruel of you not to
> include in the first release that hint about mapping being
> unnecessary).

Cruel? Try "stupid". I think that one omission cost me four-ish places in
the final rankings.



> Anyc chance the source code for the cave generator will be released?

I started to write a small article about it. I'll try to get back to it.

Jonathan Lennox

unread,
Jan 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/25/00
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In article <86hvr8$8fk$1...@nntp3.atl.mindspring.net>,
Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>Magnus Olsson <m...@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
>> I've been meaning to ask you since I first saw the game: Exactly how
>> did you do the cave? Is it truly infinite?
>
>(some spoilers below)
>
>
>
>
>It is not infinite. It could be really, really large -- the
>description-generation code takes an integer and does mod/div tricks to
>create text. It won't repeat until the least-common-multiple of every mod
>factor I chose. But, of course, the Z-machine is 16-bit, so I limited it
>to 32768 (positive) rooms.

Clearly, a glulx version is needed. Two billion rooms!

--
Jonathan Lennox
j...@eyrie.org

Neil K.

unread,
Jan 29, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/29/00
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Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:

> _Enchanter_ had the original infinite road (and infinite stairway). The
> description didn't change at all, after the first few rooms. You could
> keep going, but you saw the same text. It felt very flat and dull -- which
> was not undesirable, of course.

Yeah. That's why in Six the road descriptions were made up of sentence
pieces assembled at random, to alleviate at least a tiny bit of the
tedium.

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