perfect game

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Don McPhee

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Jun 1, 2001, 4:30:44 AM6/1/01
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What is your idea of The Perfect Game?


Jan-Erik Karlsson

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Jun 1, 2001, 7:10:01 AM6/1/01
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> What is your idea of The Perfect Game?

it should include everything and more :-)

meaning.
it should be well written, it should not have 'you can't do that' kind
of stuff, the riddles should not be obscure to the point of people
having to be able to look into the future to solve.

which boils down to that it should behave like real life but only more
so...
--
With Kind Regards,
Jan-Erik Karlsson
Email: t...@nospam.privat.utfors.se.invalid
WWW: http://hem.fyristorg.com/TRG/
UIN: 54667153
---
%t

Andrew Plotkin

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Jun 1, 2001, 1:10:31 PM6/1/01
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Don McPhee <d...@greenstreet.fsworld.co.uk> wrote:
> What is your idea of The Perfect Game?

One with no flaws.

Would you like to ask a more specific question?

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.

Matthew Russotto

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Jun 1, 2001, 1:36:43 PM6/1/01
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In article <9f8ia7$2cq$2...@news.panix.com>,

Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>Don McPhee <d...@greenstreet.fsworld.co.uk> wrote:
>> What is your idea of The Perfect Game?
>
>One with no flaws.
>
>Would you like to ask a more specific question?

> CASKLY GAME
Which game do you mean, the Zarf game, the Nelson game, or the Rybread
Celcius game?

> ZARF
Sorry, perfecting Zarf games is prohibited by treaty.

> CASKLY NELSON GAME
The author name changes to "Angela M. Horns". A few small insects
skitter away from the game. Nothing else visible happens.

> CASKLY CELCIUS GAME
The game starts to change and mutate to a new form. Then, with a
flash of light and a crack of thunder, it returns to its original
form. Apparently some things are beyond the power of the CASKLY
spell.

--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."

Andrew Plotkin

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Jun 1, 2001, 7:58:51 PM6/1/01
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Matthew Russotto <russ...@wanda.pond.com> wrote:
> In article <9f8ia7$2cq$2...@news.panix.com>,
> Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>>Don McPhee <d...@greenstreet.fsworld.co.uk> wrote:
>>> What is your idea of The Perfect Game?
>>
>>One with no flaws.
>>
>>Would you like to ask a more specific question?

>> CASKLY GAME
> Which game do you mean, the Zarf game, the Nelson game, or the Rybread
> Celcius game?

...or the Cask game?

Okay, I'll stop there.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*

* Call him "George the Third". (Hint: the First never told a lie.)

TheCycoONE

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Aug 1, 2001, 7:48:16 PM8/1/01
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Obviosly the perfect game would be so open that the user would choose
exactly what to make of it, even what gendre it belongs in based on his
choices. Such that if the player wants a Sci-Fi he should be able to find a
space craft, if the player wants folklore or mythology they should be able
to find some reference to the mixed mythologies of a number of regions of
the world (like Ultima IV). That the author could make the game humerous by
doing silly things, or keep it entirly serious and griping by acting that
way. That the player is never given a clear story line, but never lost for
stories to make and things to do. That the NPC's are varied enough in
behavior but all fit perfectly to there character, so that the player can
walk down the street and find a homeless man waving doomsday signs and a
prostitue selling service. That interaction with NPC's is so complex that
that same homeless man could end up writting a multimillion dollar book, or
freeze to death in the rain. That descriptions are lucious enough to gain a
clear mental image of any area the player enters, but not so verbrose that
the player becomes completly board of reading.
This would be the perfect text adventure... This would be the perfect game.

TheCycoONE
cyc...@hotmail.com
http://cvtg.emsai.net

Jonathan Rosebaugh

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Aug 2, 2001, 12:09:12 AM8/2/01
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On Wed, 1 Aug 2001 19:48:16 -0400, TheCycoONE <cyc...@hotmail.com> posted:

I believe I've heard of that one. They call it imagination.


--
Skip - http://www.plover.net/~skip/
GPG key 0x41963E43 - See http://www.plover.net/~skip/gpg.html
-------------------------------------------------------------
When all other means of communication fail, try words.

Aris Katsaris

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Aug 2, 2001, 3:55:55 AM8/2/01
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TheCycoONE <cyc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tmh57qs...@corp.supernews.com...

> Obviosly the perfect game would be so open that the user would choose
> exactly what to make of it,

Obviously? Why?

Given how highly certain *extremely* linear games are regarded, I'd say it's
not that obvious.

But then again I don't believe there can exist one single perfect game,
which
will be so considered by all...

Aris Katsaris

Yonder Ponder

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Aug 2, 2001, 5:58:15 AM8/2/01
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Ah, perfection - It's a feast of emotions...

A perfect game for me makes me laugh, cry, scream, curse and praise God...

A game that can play out the full spectre of emotions in me, and in
addition enlighten me with wonders of thoughts that has not occured
to me before; that is as close to perfection as it gets.

- Yonder Ponder

Alan DeNiro

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Aug 2, 2001, 1:42:51 PM8/2/01
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pong...@sneakemail.com (Jonathan Rosebaugh) wrote in message news:<8pjak9...@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>...

> On Wed, 1 Aug 2001 19:48:16 -0400, TheCycoONE <cyc...@hotmail.com> posted:
> >Obviosly the perfect game would be so open that the user would choose
> >exactly what to make of it, even what gendre it belongs in based on his
> >choices. Such that if the player wants a Sci-Fi he should be able to find a
> >space craft, if the player wants folklore or mythology they should be able
> >to find some reference to the mixed mythologies of a number of regions of
> >the world (like Ultima IV). That the author could make the game humerous by
> >doing silly things, or keep it entirly serious and griping by acting that
> >way. That the player is never given a clear story line, but never lost for
> >stories to make and things to do. That the NPC's are varied enough in
> >behavior but all fit perfectly to there character, so that the player can
> >walk down the street and find a homeless man waving doomsday signs and a
> >prostitue selling service. That interaction with NPC's is so complex that
> >that same homeless man could end up writting a multimillion dollar book, or
> >freeze to death in the rain. That descriptions are lucious enough to gain a
> >clear mental image of any area the player enters, but not so verbrose that
> >the player becomes completly board of reading.
> >This would be the perfect text adventure... This would be the perfect game.
>
> I believe I've heard of that one. They call it imagination.
Dear Patron:
The perfect game resides on the lone computer terminal in the Library
of Babel. Please contact chief librarian J.L. Borges for directions to
the terminal. Thank you.

Heavy Cat Multimedia Ltd.

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Aug 3, 2001, 3:52:17 AM8/3/01
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Sounds like more of a simulation than an adventure. Asking "why" or "what
happened next" (note past tense) or having a goal is often what makes an
adventure enjoyable.

It would be extremely difficult to have any frame of reference in a
near-totally undefined world to prevent the player from becoming confused.
If there are no clear answers to the questions "why" and "what am I supposed
to be doing" it is difficult to maintain interest.

There is also the issue of an emotional involvement with what is going on.
This usually helps a lot with the "why" questions, and provides a catharsis
at some point.

Just a thought or three. ^^

--
"Its an entirely different kind of flying...
altogether."

Scott
Heavy Cat Multimedia Ltd.
http://www.heavycat.com
http://www.ladystar.net

Jaap van der Velde

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Aug 3, 2001, 3:51:20 AM8/3/01
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On Wed, 1 Aug 2001 19:48:16 -0400, "TheCycoONE" <cyc...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Obviosly the perfect game would be so open that the user

> would choose exactly what to make of it,

*enter disagreement mode*

I disagree. That game would be the perfect game for a person
with a perfectly satifying imagination. How often have you
enjoyed a story because it gave you everything you wanted of
it beforehand? And how often have you enjoyed a story because
it surprised you or had character behave in a way you would
have never thought of?

To me, it's the originality and ingenuity of the author that
makes a story worth while.

Now, of course you could say: "Well, if you want to be
surprised, obviously that's what my perfect game would do!"
But if it does just that, there's no telling what it will
come up with and we're right back where we started: hoping
to discover more great stories to add to our collection.

Greetings,
JAAP

PS: Before I forget and annoy the hell out of my girlfriend:
*leave disagreement mode*


Alexander Deubelbeiss

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Aug 3, 2001, 4:23:40 AM8/3/01
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Alan DeNiro schrieb in Nachricht
<254e3122.01080...@posting.google.com>...

Of course, if you want to play it at home, the Hugo source code is somewhere
in the library. And the Inform source. And the COBOL source. And... ;)

Martin Julian DeMello

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Aug 5, 2001, 2:50:02 PM8/5/01
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TheCycoONE <cyc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Obviosly the perfect game would be so open that the user would choose
> exactly what to make of it, even what gendre it belongs in based on his
> choices.

Nope, when I play a game, I want to explore, not create[1]. The perfect game,
if indeed such a thing exists, would combine high degrees of immersiveness
and wish-fulfilment, to optimise the playing experience. And since every
player is looking for something slightly (or, indeed, drastically) different
in a game, I doubt that 'the' perfect game is even possible.

[1] There's a quote from Ringworld that fits perfectly here, but I don't
have my copy handy - anyone? It's the bit where Teela speculates on how nice
it must be to be able to carve your world to order, and Louis says that he
prefers to explore and let someone else do the creating.

--
Martin DeMello

David Brain

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Aug 6, 2001, 9:10:00 AM8/6/01
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In article <8pjak9...@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>,
pong...@sneakemail.com (Jonathan Rosebaugh) wrote:

> >the player becomes completly bored of reading.


> >This would be the perfect text adventure... This would be the perfect
> game.
>
> I believe I've heard of that one. They call it imagination.

Sadly, imagination went OOP some years back.
I was surprised to read in an article the other day that horror movies
were much better when they actually showed you things. This clearly came
from someone who had lost their imagination completely.

--
David Brain

"The text adventure is as dead as a dodo" Steven Poole, Trigger Happy
"Oh yeah?" rec.arts.int-fiction

TheCycoONE

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Aug 6, 2001, 8:43:16 PM8/6/01
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"Martin Julian DeMello" <mdem...@sei.owlnet.rice.edu> wrote in message
news:9kk4gq$lkq$1...@joe.rice.edu...
I suppose, I personally like to create... then I suppose that's why I'm a
programmer/author more then a gamer. I think Ultima IV did a fairly good
job though... If you weren't concerned with winning you could do a lot in
that game.

I wrote an email to Jaap in responce to his message that would assist as a
responce to many of your comments too... I'll get it out.


TheCycoONE

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Aug 6, 2001, 8:46:27 PM8/6/01
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"Jaap van der Velde" <ve...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:3b6b57f6...@news.student.utwente.nl...

email to Jaap van der Velde
-------------------------------------------
You know you sent this as an e-mail to me?

Well anyway I'd like to retaliate by saying that an NPC is not going to be
defined by the character as far as personality, physical features etc. The
player would however meet different NPC's on differen't corses of the game
(which would also need an ending, probably more then one, to give meaning to
the gameplay) So let's exclude NPC's for a second and say that the player
is standing in the street. Depending on the player his reaction could be
anything from go home to find the nearest airport. Requiring a huge map
which does not exclude space travel (since street descriptions are boring to
read I recommend making them just street e/w, intersection, etc, with some
sort of mapping system like ADRIFT. The same player could have also choosen
wether to feed the homeless or to burn them. These actions should have a
dramatic impact on not only what that particular homeless person thinks but
any possible witnesses, and to a lesser impact people they may have told and
so on. Possibly even having a chance on it getting caught on mass media :-)
--------------------------------
end of message

TheCycoONE
cyc...@hotmail.com
http://cvtg.emsai.net


Jaap van der Velde

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Aug 7, 2001, 5:34:10 PM8/7/01
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On Mon, 6 Aug 2001 20:46:27 -0400, "TheCycoONE" <cyc...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

TheCycoONE wrote:
> the gameplay) So let's exclude NPC's for a second and say that the player
> is standing in the street. Depending on the player his reaction could be
> anything from go home to find the nearest airport. Requiring a huge map
> which does not exclude space travel (since street descriptions are boring to
> read I recommend making them just street e/w, intersection, etc, with some
> sort of mapping system like ADRIFT. The same player could have also choosen
> wether to feed the homeless or to burn them. These actions should have a
> dramatic impact on not only what that particular homeless person thinks but
> any possible witnesses, and to a lesser impact people they may have told and
> so on. Possibly even having a chance on it getting caught on mass media :-)

This picture of a 'perfect game' appeals to me more, but I still
think we're running into the classical choice for writing the PC
(player character): Do you want the player/reader to feel immersed
in the game herself or playing the role of the leading character
in your story? Playing a pious priest would kind of conflict with
burning the homeless person, which would require a character as
diabolical as the main character from American Psycho...

Most stories take off with the main character having some past,
different from your own and it is this past that shapes their
behaviour. It would break the suspension of disbelief having the
main character behave in ways he or she wouldn't 'normally'.

If you -do- want total freedom for the main character and have
found some sort of storytelling device to make this possible
(memory-loss, brainwashing, whatever) and believable, the story
will be limited in that it could no longer have a clearly directed
plot. It would become more of a 'descriptive simulation' instead of
and interactive fiction -story-.

I guess there are stories which offer a nice setting for such a
situation. (I thought of 'Day of the Triffids' immediately) And
some games already offer the possibility of going 'bad' or doing
the right thing, like Fallout II. Is that the kind of freedom of
choice you're looking for?

Greetings,
JAAP.

(sorry 'bout the mess with mail and all. switched newsreaders...)

TheCycoONE

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Aug 7, 2001, 8:12:14 PM8/7/01
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"Jaap van der Velde" <ve...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:3b7448ee...@news.student.utwente.nl...

I've never played, nor even heard of Day of the Triffids. (Freeware or
Retail? IF or RPG?) and I didn't like Fallout II that much. As I mentioned
when I found a copy of Ultima IV on my computer (no manual or anything to
give it a purpose) I thought it was the greatest game ever. Complete
freedom to explore the map, the player could interact with everyone and
there reactions would change pending on wether or not the Avatar was strong
in certain virtues. Anouther game I liked for quite some time was Alter
Ego. In that there was no victory or even a goal. The game ended at death,
but on the way you made hundreds of choices which effected who you were
along the way... If you haven't played it yet, I strongly recommend it... at
least for a few hours. I kept creating new goals for myself so I played it
for months. It should be found at any abandonware site. To a much lesser
extent I enjoyed Princess Maker II for the same reasons.


Kevin Lighton

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Aug 8, 2001, 4:24:51 AM8/8/01
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TheCycoONE <cyc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I've never played, nor even heard of Day of the Triffids. (Freeware or
> Retail? IF or RPG?)

Novel by John Wyndham.

Ja, mata
--
Kevin Lighton lig...@bestweb.net or shin...@operamail.com
http://members.tripod.com/~shinma_kl/main.html
"I thought he was too arrogant to have an escape pod!" Vyse, _Skies of
Arcadia_

Jaap van der Velde

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Aug 8, 2001, 5:30:15 AM8/8/01
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Kevin Lighton <lig...@bestweb.net> wrote:
> > I've never played, nor even heard of Day of the Triffids. (Freeware or
> > Retail? IF or RPG?)
> Novel by John Wyndham.

Indeed, and a damn good one at that, very thought-provoking and
great candidate for an IF-spinoff. (sorry I forgot to mention it
was a novel and not a game)

Grtz,
JAAP.

Jaap van der Velde

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Aug 8, 2001, 5:33:22 AM8/8/01
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TheCycoONE wrote:
> when I found a copy of Ultima IV on my computer (no manual or anything to
> give it a purpose) I thought it was the greatest game ever.

The freedom of Ultima is great, very much so, but I still don't
that kind of freedom would do for the greatest game ever, at
least not in the realm of IF. IF seems more suited for
interactive story-telling and not for role-playing/simulation
in the sense that Ultima (or Fallout at that) gives you.

Grtz,
JAAP.

TheCycoONE

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Aug 8, 2001, 7:20:14 AM8/8/01
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"Jaap van der Velde" <ve...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:3b74075c...@news.student.utwente.nl...
I suppose we'll see about that. The game I'm working on now is very
restrictive, but some time in the future when I learn to program TADS and
download the finnished version of TG-TADS
(http://sansmorden.tripod.com/tg-tads.html) I'll start work on one and prove
it... or rather dream of doing such, refuse to inlist anyone's help and
experiance anouther devestating HD crash which destroys the idea forever.

TheCycoONE

Jaap van der Velde

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Aug 8, 2001, 6:05:31 PM8/8/01
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"TheCycoONE" <cyc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I'll start work on one and prove it... or rather dream of doing
> such, refuse to inlist anyone's help and experiance anouther
> devestating HD crash which destroys the idea forever.

Yaik! Want to share or is this some private and deeply
buried pain?.. ;)

Grtz,
JAAP.

TheCycoONE

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Aug 8, 2001, 9:13:40 PM8/8/01
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"Jaap van der Velde" <ve...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:3b71b75f...@news.student.utwente.nl...

Why not? When I first learned that IF was still being programmed and used
today (in 1998) I had a dream, that dream was to burst onto the IF scene
with a huge spectacular game which would have everyone's heads turned and
skyrocket me to the top of the comunity. I spent months reading manuals,
practicing, playing the best games and analyzing what could be done. I came
to the *personal* conclusion that my game would have to be made in TADS.
Anyway I'd been working on the program for little over a year. I finally
had my map completly created, much of the introduction, a detailed
storyline, a number of puzzles, NPC plans etc. Then my darn blasted <snip>
</snip> computer decided to conk out. The HD became corroded somehow to a
point where every professional I could find said my poor program and
anything else on it was beyond recovery. I still have binders full of notes
sitting beside my computer, large maps I drew scruched up in the corner. I
guess I took it pretty badly because I didn't type a word of TADS Sorce
since. I keep backups of everything now. :-) Anyway my first release
instead is going to be some pittful peice of AIF created using Adrift, that
if my intuition is correct is going to be too difficult for the majority of
the community, and I'll have to ruin it by giving everyone walkthrus. :-{

TheCycoONE


Jaap van der Velde

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Aug 13, 2001, 1:21:04 AM8/13/01
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On Wed, 8 Aug 2001 21:13:40 -0400, in rec.arts.int-fiction you wrote:

> I keep backups of everything now. :-)

And very wise you are! This type of event is one most of us
can luckily consider to be in the 'only happens to other
people category', but those of us who do not heed the
warnings of pitiable prophets as your self sadly also fall
into the 'disaster waiting to happen' category.

> Anyway my first release instead is going to be some
> pittful peice of AIF created using Adrift,

More questions pop into my head: You cannot possibly blame
TADS for your loss, so either you got sick of coding TADS
just before your HDD gave out, or you discovered Adrift to
be the ultimate solution for all you IF wants and needs?
(or of course the ever-nagging last option I'm overlooking)

> that if my intuition is correct is going to be too
> difficult for the majority of the community, and I'll
> have to ruin it by giving everyone walkthrus. :-{

And you were looking forward to all those discussions about
needing to prove Fermat's Last Theorem to enter the 'Room of
Esperanto Dictionaries'... ;)

GrtZ,
JAAP.

TheCycoONE

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Aug 13, 2001, 7:02:12 AM8/13/01
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> More questions pop into my head: You cannot possibly blame
> TADS for your loss, so either you got sick of coding TADS
> just before your HDD gave out, or you discovered Adrift to
> be the ultimate solution for all you IF wants and needs?
> (or of course the ever-nagging last option I'm overlooking)

Not just before, at the time when. I'm not blaming TADS Coding for my HD
crash (or maybe I am, perhaps I should check with the RAIF FAQ God on that
one.) However when I was programming TADS almost dayly for hours I was
assuming I was creating with concrete when it turns out computers are
actually sand. When my structure came crumbling down I decided of all
things to change the water.

Anywho I'll get over it, most likely when I release this game and watch it
get coughed up by the reviewers I'll switch again, perhaps to something like
HUGO, then on to CAT, perhaps even Inform, but I'll get back to TADS...
eventually. (Well actually much more likely I'll wait 'till v3 comes out an
pretend its something new. ;-)

TheCycoONE
cyc...@hotmail.com

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