Goodbye to USENET
dun...@yahoo.com
By: Paul Panks (AKA Paul Allen Panks, AKA "Dunric", AKA "PAP", AKA
"Panks")
I never thought I'd write this letter. Here goes:
This is my final post to USENET forever. This is really it. No more.
Ever. Some ten years ago when I began posting USENET while a student at
Northern Arizona University, I was very new to the internet and,
indeed, the technology itself was relatively new as well. In a country
as great as America, one could hop on a computer in a university
library and post/read messages from across the globe. It was always a
delight to be able to read and respond to postings from people all over
the world. A decade or so ago, USENET was very informative and
interesting. But today, in 2006, the USENET is USE-LESS.
This process started gradually over a short period of time right after
Windows 98 came out. People with WebTV, AOL and Geocities accounts
quickly flooded USENET like so many wayward vampires, chasing after
chickens in the eerie moonlight. Just what became of USENET you ask? A
"de-evolution" event took hold, gnarling and eating away at the very
fabric of whatever mystical loom wove this capitulation of talking
Prozacians into place.
We are no longer an enlightened society, driven down by 99 cent
Thirstbusters and Big Macs galore. We are drowning in our own Prolixin.
Whatever muscles we had left to lift the proverbial shit-faced Furbies
off our heads disappeared when corporate greed and indifference
deep-sixed our collective will. "Usenet is not the internet"? The
USENET is Breidbart Index meets Godwin's Law meets Meow Wars meets
Serdar Argic meets Eternal September. If there's a Glad Bag large
enough to encapsulate the shit USENET promulgates, well, I'm sure
Archimedes Plutonium is presently working on a method to condense it
into Zero Space.
To all the USENET groups I have ever posted to, I say only this:
As I was walking on the beach, I saw the LORD molding a dove from clay.
He sculpted the bird until at last it had wings. Breathing life into
it, he cusped his hands and let it fly to the heavens. And it flew,
high into the air until it disappeared over the vast horizon ahead. The
LORD turned to me and smiled, saying only,"Take flight, my son. For I
am always with you, and you are forever in the shadow of the LORD, Thy
God." (English)
---
Pendant que je marchais sur la plage, j'ai vu le SEIGNEUR mouler une
colombe d'argile. Il sculpted l'oiseau jusqu'à ce qu'enfin il ait eu
des ailes. La vie de respiration dans lui, il cusped ses mains et les a
laissées voler aux cieux. Et elle a volé, haut dans l'air jusqu'à ce
qu'elle ait disparu au-dessus du vaste horizon en avant. Le SEIGNEUR
tourné à moi et souri, dire seulement, « vol de prise, mon fils.
Pour moi suis toujours avec toi, et vous êtes pour toujours dans
l'ombre du SEIGNEUR, Dieu de Thy. » (Frances)
---
Während ich auf den Strand ging, sah ich den LORD, eine Taube vom Lehm
zu formen. Er sculpted den Vogel, bis schließlich er Flügel hatte.
Atmenleben in ihn, cusped er seine Hände und ließ sie zu den Himmeln
fliegen. Und sie flog, stark in die Luft, bis sie über dem
beträchtlichen Horizont voran verschwand. Der LORD wendete an mich und
lächelte, sagen nur, ,,Nehmenflug, mein Sohn. Für bin mich immer mit
Ihnen, und Sie sind für immer im Schatten des LORDS, Thy Gott."
(Germanic)
---
Mentre stavo camminando sulla spiaggia, ho visto il SIGNORE modellare
una colomba da argilla. Sculpted l'uccello fino a che infine non avesse
ale. Vita di respirazione in esso, cusped le sue mani e le ha lasciate
volare al cielo. Ed ha volato, su nell'aria fino a che non sparisse
sopra l'orizzonte ampio avanti. Il SIGNORE si è girato verso me ed ha
sorriso, ad esempio soltanto, "volo dell'introito, il mio figlio. Per
sono sempre con voi e siete per sempre nell'ombra del SIGNORE, dio di
Thy.,, (Italia)
---
Som jag gick på badstranden, sågar jag LORDEN som gjuter en duva
från lera. Han sculpted fågeln, tills äntligen den hade påskyndar.
Andningliv in i den, cusped han his räcker och l5At den flyga till
himmlarna. Och den flög, kicken in i lufta, tills den försvann över
den vast horisonten framåt. LORDEN vände till mig och log, ordstävet
endast, "Takeflighten, min son. För är jag alltid med dig, och du
är för alltid i skuggan av LORDEN, den Thy guden.", (Swede)
May the angels, ghosts and UFOs be with you always. Ayoke, Eyumojock my
friends. Ayoke, Eyumojock.
Cao,
Paul
P.S. Write me sometime, eh? (dun...@yahoo.com)
The Ides of March on the Continent USA
4:09 AM MST
Jacek Pudlo
Windows 98 came out. People with WebTV, AOL and Geocities accounts
quickly flooded USENET like so many wayward vampires, chasing after
chickens in the eerie moonlight. Just what became of USENET you ask? A
"de-evolution" event took hold, gnarling and eating away at the very
fabric of whatever mystical loom wove this capitulation of talking
Prozacians into place."
How do you gnarl a fabric? Are looms made of fabric? Dude, you should have
stuck with the chicken simile. All that gnarling and eating would have made
sense, sort of.
Howard S Shubs
dun...@yahoo.com wrote:
> 'Goodbye to USENET'
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
--
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams.
from "Ode", Arthur O'Shaughnessy
REH
dun...@yahoo.com wrote:
> 'Goodbye to USENET'
> By: Paul Panks (AKA Paul Allen Panks, AKA "Dunric", AKA "PAP", AKA
> "Panks")
>
> I never thought I'd write this letter. Here goes:
>
> This is my final post to USENET forever.
I don't know you, and never had anything against you, but didn't you
post this same diatribe last year?
REH
David Welbourn
are those metaphors overwrought, they need footnotes. As near as I can
tell, you're trying to say, "You guys are all full of shit. Jesus and I
are outta here," but it's difficult to be sure.
And sorry, but I don't believe you. You're probably sincere, but I
don't believe you when you say you're leaving usenet forever. You've
pulled this stunt so often, it would be far easier to believe that this
is your way of celebrating the beginning of spring. You need a break?
You need to get away from usenet? Fine. That I can understand. But you
don't need you make a public bulletin about it. Go. Come back. Or don't
come back. It's your life, but it's not news.
A couple more points: Usenet is just a tool; no one claims it's perfect
or for everyone.
And you're gonna find the same types of people wherever your angels
carry you to, y'know.
-- David Welbourn
Stuart Moore
Kevin G. Rhoads
>
>I don't know you, and never had anything against you, but didn't you
>post this same diatribe last year?
Perhaps it's like the AI hackers, where they always go out and order "Sweet and Sour
Bitter Melon" on April 1st (which, by the way, I've heard tastes truly awful).
He's just getting a jump on the gun, I suppose.
Kevin G. Rhoads
April 2nd is much sweeter. ;-)
Stephen Gilbert
you escape from USENET, make sure you take the lead! Jesus doesn't have
very many hitpoints...
On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 03:13:37 -0800, dunric wrote:
> 'Goodbye to USENET'
> By: Paul Panks (AKA Paul Allen Panks, AKA "Dunric", AKA "PAP", AKA
> "Panks")
>
> I never thought I'd write this letter. Here goes:
>
> This is my final post to USENET forever.
<snip>
>
> To all the USENET groups I have ever posted to, I say only this:
>
> As I was walking on the beach, I saw the LORD molding a dove from clay. He
> sculpted the bird until at last it had wings. Breathing life into it, he
> cusped his hands and let it fly to the heavens. And it flew, high into the
> air until it disappeared over the vast horizon ahead. The LORD turned to
> me and smiled, saying only,"Take flight, my son. For I am always with you,
> and you are forever in the shadow of the LORD, Thy God." (English)
<snip>
Al Balmer
>This is my final post to USENET forever
I wish that were true.
--
Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ
David Whyld
dun...@yahoo.com wrote:
> 'Goodbye to USENET'
> By: Paul Panks (AKA Paul Allen Panks, AKA "Dunric", AKA "PAP", AKA
> "Panks")
>
> I never thought I'd write this letter. Here goes:
>
> This is my final post to USENET forever.
Now normally I'd rejoice at hearing this, but as you posted pretty much
the same thing last year, and then went on posting after it, I'll hold
off my rejoicing for a while.
RAIF
Please remember to take your Prozac. You are not well.
Us wayward vampires are busy chasing TADS3 and awaiting the chicken we
call Inform7. The XYZZY awards were handed out a few nights ago in
grand ceremonial fashion. So this little corner of USENET is doing
quite well, thank you for asking and for your words of eternal
optimism.
Since I am not one of the enlightened, please pardon me while I take a
bite of my Big Mac and ponder your incomprehensible references. If you
want to leave, then please leave. You don't have to insult us. And
wherever your angels and UFO's take you, chances are, there will be a
nice big glad bag of shit there too. Sometimes one has to sit back and
look in the mirror and ask why does every place I travel, start to
smell bad...
So until the season changes and you once again troll back to us with
convenient amensia of all previous rantings - thanks for giving us the
break.
Paul Ding
posted something that included:
The September That Never Ended was in 1993, and WebTV came out in
1996, but things didn't start going to hell until after Win98 came
out?
--
AmishHosting.com
o//annabee
:) ? Did he? I never saw it. However, I can sometimes agree a little with
him, even if, I am able to find many fun and interessting things on
internet, still.
He may just experience a passing moment of info-over-flood. or a small
depression. It will pass.
Take care dunric! :) I dont share you values, espsially consering HLA and
etc. but a man able to be depressed cannot be all bad. It takes some
intelligence to be depressed you know, and it teaches a man about depths.
o//annabee
.
> And you're gonna find the same types of people wherever your angels
> carry you to, y'know.
Yep. Thats true. I play online? It may be because of the limtations of
chat, but it seem like the SAME fucking moron is logged on to all the
servers, doing the same part in every conversation at all of them. What
you see is, at the beginning theres no Trolls, but then they get bored,
and they start to use their imagination. Then they attack their teammates.
Some day it irritated me a lot, in battlefield2 that some moron was
walking in front of my plane so that I got a teamkill each time I drove
over him. In a sudden clipse of recall, it hit me that I had invented this
shitty tactic, a few weeks earlier, because I then was feed up with not
reaching the plane at time.......
Aocha! But I found that I be fully able to be equally rightously irritated
at both occations :))
>
> -- David Welbourn
>
Charles Richmond
for the Laughing Academy...
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
jmfb...@aol.com
Daryl McCullough
> Paul Ding <lanc...@paulding.net> wrote:
>
>>The September That Never Ended was in 1993, and WebTV came out in
>>1996, but things didn't start going to hell until after Win98 came
>>out?
>
>Nope. YOu guys were bitching before that.
Actually, it's been downhill for the internet ever since they stopped
calling it the "ARPANET".
--
Daryl McCullough
Ithaca, NY
solar penguin
No, the rot set in once these new-fangled computers started replacing
the old Morse telegraph system.
--
___ _ ___ _
/ __| ___ | | __ _ _ _ | _ \ ___ _ _ __ _ _ _ (_) _ _
\__ \/ _ \| |/ _` || '_| | _// -_)| ' \ / _` || || || || ' \
|___/\___/|_|\__,_||_| |_| \___||_||_|\__, | \_,_||_||_||_|
|___/
http://www.freewebs.com/solar_penguin/
** Yes, it was a newbie... You are my feelings... I feel for no logical
reason.
** Sure. He had to take advantage of Clemens.
REH
o//annabee wrote:
> På Tue, 14 Mar 2006 14:51:01 +0100, skrev REH <spam...@stny.rr.com>:
> :) ? Did he? I never saw it.
REH
te...@hexlink.com
group...He is obviously trying to get a rise out of everyone...Shut the
F**K up. You are a bore. Goodbye already!!!
REH
> the old Morse telegraph system.
>
Yeah, I remember sending smoke signals one day, long ago, and these
young morse code punks came up the hills do their "beep, beep, beep"
crap. Very annoying. So, we chase 'em down the hills, throwing rocks
at them. They kept going "di-di-di-dah-dah-dah-di-di-dit" all the way
down! Damn, youngins!
REH
Eric Eve
"REH" <spam...@stny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1142448468.3...@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
> Yeah, I remember sending smoke signals one day, long ago, and
> these
> young morse code punks came up the hills do their "beep, beep,
> beep"
> crap. Very annoying. So, we chase 'em down the hills, throwing
> rocks
> at them. They kept going "di-di-di-dah-dah-dah-di-di-dit" all the
> way
> down! Damn, youngins!
So it was *you* sending those smoke signals. I remember seeing the
wretched things one day, and thinking "what's the world coming to
when folks can't just get off their backsides, walk a couple of
miles, and say what they want to say face to face." You probably
remember that when you came back from throwing rocks at those Morse
guys, we'd doused all your fires -- all that smoke, polluting the
air, and so unsightly! Anyway, it was obvious the world would go to
hell if people started relying on SmokeNet -- yet more Vapourware!
-- Eric
mensa...@aol.com
REH wrote:
> solar penguin wrote:
> > Daryl McCullough <stevend...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > jmfb...@aol.com says...
> >
> > No, the rot set in once these new-fangled computers started replacing
> > the old Morse telegraph system.
> >
>
> Yeah, I remember sending smoke signals
Luxury.
WE had to beat on a hollow log with a stick.
Kevin G. Rhoads
>
>WE had to beat on a hollow log with a stick.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we've also heard the one about copper being so expensive, there was only one
wire for the telegraph, so people had to go up on hills and fly kites to attract lightening bolts
and you could only send a telegram when there was a thunderstorm.
Next you'll be telling us they had no "ones" and you had to use all zeros. You had to walk to
school through the snow, UPHILL BOTH WAYS.
And when you got appendicitis, the ER team was too busy and handed you a straight razor, a mirror
and a bottle of whiskey, and told you to handle it yourself.
That your mother was stuck in labor for 30 days and 30 nights and finally you had to coach her through
the birth from inside the womb. (And when the doctor tried to slap your fanny you sucker punched him.)
Yeah, right.
Frank Kotler
> He is obviously trying to get a rise out of everyone...
Workin' good, too! :)
Best,
Frank
o//annabee
:)))))))))) Yes. Sorry for crosssposting!
>
> /BAH
>
Paul Ding
<solar....@tiscali.co.NO.SPAM.THANKS.uk> posted something that
included:
>Daryl McCullough <stevend...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> jmfb...@aol.com says...
>>
>>> Paul Ding <lanc...@paulding.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The September That Never Ended was in 1993, and WebTV came out in
>>>> 1996, but things didn't start going to hell until after Win98 came
>>>> out?
>>>
>>> Nope. YOu guys were bitching before that.
>>
>> Actually, it's been downhill for the internet ever since they stopped
>> calling it the "ARPANET".
>
>No, the rot set in once these new-fangled computers started replacing
>the old Morse telegraph system.
The first dozen rots were terrible, ohg V xvaqn yvxrq gur bar nsgre
gung.
--
AmishHosting.com
Joe Pfeiffer
> >Luxury.
> >
> >WE had to beat on a hollow log with a stick.
>
> Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we've also heard the one about copper being so expensive, there was only one
> wire for the telegraph, so people had to go up on hills and fly kites to attract lightening bolts
> and you could only send a telegram when there was a thunderstorm.
>
> Next you'll be telling us they had no "ones" and you had to use all zeros. You had to walk to
> school through the snow, UPHILL BOTH WAYS.
Under the blazing hot sun, too.
> And when you got appendicitis, the ER team was too busy and handed you a straight razor, a mirror
> and a bottle of whiskey, and told you to handle it yourself.
They were also out of whiskey.
> That your mother was stuck in labor for 30 days and 30 nights and finally you had to coach her through
> the birth from inside the womb. (And when the doctor tried to slap your fanny you sucker punched him.)
Nope -- my mom was in labor with me for so long my little brother wound up
coaching her through it.
:)
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
mensa...@aol.com
And the Rhoads goes on forever.
REH
<mensa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1142463788.0...@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>
> And the Rhoads goes on forever.
>
and the party never ends...sigh. :)
REH
Hank Oredson
news:pq5h129g3cpsbde56...@4ax.com...
Excellent!
--
... Hank
http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli
Charles Richmond
>
> Daryl McCullough <stevend...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > jmfb...@aol.com says...
> >
> >> Paul Ding <lanc...@paulding.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> The September That Never Ended was in 1993, and WebTV came out in
> >>> 1996, but things didn't start going to hell until after Win98 came
> >>> out?
> >>
> >> Nope. YOu guys were bitching before that.
> >
> > Actually, it's been downhill for the internet ever since they stopped
> > calling it the "ARPANET".
>
> No, the rot set in once these new-fangled computers started replacing
> the old Morse telegraph system.
>
earth, caused the demise of the dinosaurs and paved the way
for the rise of human beings. ;-)
jmfb...@aol.com
I disagree. I have had encounters with people who have taught
me a lot more than I would have ever learned if I hadn't gone
online. I have met many people I would have not known existed
if I hadn't gone online. It was these people who got me
interested in learning again. If it weren't for them, I'd
have given up 10 years ago.
In addition, old knowledge is getting taught to the kids
because the bandwidth is not person-person in this medium.
It is person-wholefuckingworld.
Now, it does have its drawbacks especially for those who
forget that newsgroups is a stop at the coffee pot type
of conversation.
/BAH
jmfb...@aol.com
"mensa...@aol.com" <mensa...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>REH wrote:
>> solar penguin wrote:
>> > Daryl McCullough <stevend...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > > jmfb...@aol.com says...
>> >
>> > No, the rot set in once these new-fangled computers started replacing
>> > the old Morse telegraph system.
>> >
>>
>> Yeah, I remember sending smoke signals
>
>Luxury.
>
>WE had to beat on a hollow log with a stick.
And you had a backup plan which was to burn the log and stick
as a last resort.
>
>> one day, long ago, and these
>> young morse code punks came up the hills do their "beep, beep, beep"
>> crap. Very annoying. So, we chase 'em down the hills, throwing rocks
>> at them. They kept going "di-di-di-dah-dah-dah-di-di-dit" all the way
>> down! Damn, youngins!
ROTFLMAO.
/BAH
jmfb...@aol.com
hmmm..point. I hadn't noticed the crosspost; I was talking
to the bonnie bit gods here in a.f.c.
/BAH
Evenbit
jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
> hmmm..point. I hadn't noticed the crosspost; I was talking
> to the bonnie bit gods here in a.f.c.
They are "Billies" not "Bonnies" and these BIT GODS are *ONLY* here in
a.l.a and DON'T YOU FORGET THAT! ;-)
Nathan.
o//annabee
So was I at a.l.a. It feels awful doesnt it? To me it feel like I was
accidently dropped in outer space, fully unprotected. Its like beeiing
cauth having an affair.
;)
>
> /BAH
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Charles Richmond <rich...@comcast.net> wrote:
> solar penguin wrote:
> >
> > Daryl McCullough <stevend...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > jmfb...@aol.com says...
> > >
> > >> Paul Ding <lanc...@paulding.net> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> The September That Never Ended was in 1993, and WebTV came out in
> > >>> 1996, but things didn't start going to hell until after Win98 came
> > >>> out?
> > >>
> > >> Nope. YOu guys were bitching before that.
> > >
> > > Actually, it's been downhill for the internet ever since they stopped
> > > calling it the "ARPANET".
> >
> > No, the rot set in once these new-fangled computers started replacing
> > the old Morse telegraph system.
> >
> IMHO we really started our downward spiral when an asteroid hit the
> earth, caused the demise of the dinosaurs and paved the way
> for the rise of human beings. ;-)
We should never have left the thermal vents - those that stayed
there didn't even notice that asteroid.
--
C:>WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
| http://www.sohara.org/
Hank Oredson
news:1142513145....@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
There are bit gods in Alabama?
Perhaps in Huntsville ...
Richard Bos
> Daryl McCullough <stevend...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > jmfb...@aol.com says...
> >
> >> Paul Ding <lanc...@paulding.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> The September That Never Ended was in 1993, and WebTV came out in
> >>> 1996, but things didn't start going to hell until after Win98 came
> >>> out?
> >>
> >> Nope. YOu guys were bitching before that.
> >
> > Actually, it's been downhill for the internet ever since they stopped
> > calling it the "ARPANET".
>
> No, the rot set in once these new-fangled computers started replacing
> the old Morse telegraph system.
In fact, civilisation started going to the dogs when one Ugh hit another
Ugh over the head with a rock and called it "language".
Richard
Daryl McCullough
>>Actually, it's been downhill for the internet ever since they stopped
>>calling it the "ARPANET".
>
>I disagree. I have had encounters with people who have taught
>me a lot more than I would have ever learned if I hadn't gone
>online.
I wasn't making a serious point, just getting in on the fun of
"It was so much better in the old days before they let in
the riff-raff...".
Charlie Gibbs
mensa...@aol.com (mensa...@aol.com) writes:
> REH wrote:
>
>> solar penguin wrote:
>>
>>> Daryl McCullough <stevend...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> jmfb...@aol.com says...
>>>
>>> No, the rot set in once these new-fangled computers started
>>> replacing the old Morse telegraph system.
>>
>> Yeah, I remember sending smoke signals
>
> Luxury.
>
> WE had to beat on a hollow log with a stick.
You had STICKS? We had to beat our heads on the log. That
hurt, especially if we couldn't find a log that was hollow.
>> one day, long ago, and these
>> young morse code punks came up the hills do their "beep, beep, beep"
>> crap. Very annoying. So, we chase 'em down the hills, throwing
>> rocks at them. They kept going "di-di-di-dah-dah-dah-di-di-dit"
>> all the way down! Damn, youngins!
We got the last laugh. We made one of them telephone thingies.
And then we got rid of the wires.
--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
jmfb...@aol.com
stevend...@yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough) wrote:
>jmfb...@aol.com says...
>>
>>In article <dv991...@drn.newsguy.com>,
>> stevend...@yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough) wrote:
>
>>>Actually, it's been downhill for the internet ever since they stopped
>>>calling it the "ARPANET".
>>
>>I disagree. I have had encounters with people who have taught
>>me a lot more than I would have ever learned if I hadn't gone
>>online.
>
>I wasn't making a serious point, just getting in on the fun of
>"It was so much better in the old days before they let in
>the riff-raff...".
Ah! There is bizarre riff-raff. Once in while we uncover
an unpolished gem who will do a lot of good work if they
learn how to work and continue to do the work (as opposed
to directing the work). Since today's society does not
encourage non-conformity and is working on rewarding
destruction of productivity, the only way to tell
kids that it is OK to think is by this gossip medium.
/BAH
jmfb...@aol.com
Steve O'Hara-Smith <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 03:07:15 -0600
>Charles Richmond <rich...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> solar penguin wrote:
>> >
>> > Daryl McCullough <stevend...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > > jmfb...@aol.com says...
>> > >
>> > >> Paul Ding <lanc...@paulding.net> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> The September That Never Ended was in 1993, and WebTV came out in
>> > >>> 1996, but things didn't start going to hell until after Win98 came
>> > >>> out?
>> > >>
>> > >> Nope. YOu guys were bitching before that.
>> > >
>> > > Actually, it's been downhill for the internet ever since they stopped
>> > > calling it the "ARPANET".
>> >
>> > No, the rot set in once these new-fangled computers started replacing
>> > the old Morse telegraph system.
>> >
>> IMHO we really started our downward spiral when an asteroid hit the
>> earth, caused the demise of the dinosaurs and paved the way
>> for the rise of human beings. ;-)
>
> We should never have left the thermal vents - those that stayed
>there didn't even notice that asteroid.
What a gas!
/BAH
Charlie Gibbs
jmfb...@aol.com (jmfbahciv) writes:
> In article <dvcgu...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> stevend...@yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough) wrote:
>
>> I wasn't making a serious point, just getting in on the fun of
>> "It was so much better in the old days before they let in
>> the riff-raff...".
>
> Ah! There is bizarre riff-raff. Once in while we uncover
> an unpolished gem who will do a lot of good work if they
> learn how to work and continue to do the work (as opposed
> to directing the work).
I call that "beating the Peter Principle".
> Since today's society does not encourage non-conformity and is
> working on rewarding destruction of productivity, the only way
> to tell kids that it is OK to think is by this gossip medium.
Lately I've been seeing more and more columns written regarding
productivity. This seems to be becoming the new buzzword, soon
to join words like "excellence", which now do little besides
triggering my bullshit detector.
But as with any other buzzword, I suppose it's OK to talk about
increasing productivity as long as you do no more than pay lip
service to the concept.
jmfb...@aol.com
"Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>In article <dveamd$8qk...@s1012.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
>jmfb...@aol.com (jmfbahciv) writes:
>
>> In article <dvcgu...@drn.newsguy.com>,
>> stevend...@yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough) wrote:
>>
>>> I wasn't making a serious point, just getting in on the fun of
>>> "It was so much better in the old days before they let in
>>> the riff-raff...".
>>
>> Ah! There is bizarre riff-raff. Once in while we uncover
>> an unpolished gem who will do a lot of good work if they
>> learn how to work and continue to do the work (as opposed
>> to directing the work).
>
>I call that "beating the Peter Principle".
>
>> Since today's society does not encourage non-conformity and is
>> working on rewarding destruction of productivity, the only way
>> to tell kids that it is OK to think is by this gossip medium.
>
>Lately I've been seeing more and more columns written regarding
>productivity.
Yea, I'm going to start patenting my nouns. It seems that
the stuff we make up eventually leaks to the social anti-scientists
for the purpose of countering the goal of the word.
I wonder if that's a semester course in marketing?
> This seems to be becoming the new buzzword, soon
>to join words like "excellence", which now do little besides
>triggering my bullshit detector.
A Tom Peters' Peter Principle.
>
>But as with any other buzzword, I suppose it's OK to talk about
>increasing productivity as long as you do no more than pay lip
>service to the concept.
Byte that lip, sir!
/BAH
Personman
Paul Ding wrote:
>
> The first dozen rots were terrible, ohg V xvaqn yvxrq gur bar nsgre
> gung.
>
It's posts like this that remind me of why I bother reading through
threads like this in the first place. Truly outstanding.
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> Actually, it's been downhill for the internet ever since they stopped
> calling it the "ARPANET".
ARPANET required dedicated 56kbit links, expensive IMPs, homogeneous
operation (based on the IMP boxes) and lots of inter-IMP chatter (I
remember some joke in the late 70s about the IMPs required 56kbit
links because as the number of nodes were scaling over 200, majority
of the bandwidth could be going for inter-IMP control traffic).
in some respects ISO OSI networking standard homogeneous operation and
ARPANET homogeneous operation were similar. the big change was the
switch-over to internetworking protocol on 1/1/83 (internets,
gateways, etc). i've frequently contended that the internal
network
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet
was larger than the arpanet/internet (from just about the beginning
until sometime mid-85) was because internal network nodes had something
akin to gateway technology from the beginning (making heterogeneous
interoperability a lot easier). at the time of the big switch-over
the arpanet was approx. 250 nodes. By comparison, later that
same year, the internal network celebrated its 1000th node
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/internet.htm#22
various collected networking postings, many referencing how OSI
homogeneous operation and lack of internetworking severely limited ISO
networking standards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#xtphsp
the other big change wasn't so much protocol technology (that enabled
gateways and backbone for inter-networking) ... but the actual
deployment of an operational backbone for inter-networking with
nsfnet1. minor comment about not being allowed to bid on nsfnet1
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/internet.htm#0
various other posts mentiong nsfnet backbone:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#49 Edsger Dijkstra: the blackest week of his professional life
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#59 Ok Computer
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#33 why is there an "@" key?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#37a Internet and/or ARPANET?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#40 [netz] History and vision for the future of Internet - Public Question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#146 Dispute about Internet's origins
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#49 IBM RT PC (was Re: What does AT stand for ?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#78 Free RT monitors/keyboards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#56 Is Al Gore The Father of the Internet?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#58 Is Al Gore The Father of the Internet?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#63 Is Al Gore The Father of the Internet?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#77 Is Al Gore The Father of the Internet?^
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#5 Is Al Gore The Father of the Internet?^
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#28 Is Al Gore The Father of the Internet?^
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#44 Al Gore and the Internet (Part 2 of 2)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#47 Al Gore and the Internet (Part 2 of 2)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#4 Sv: First video terminal?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#44 Wired News :The Grid: The Next-Gen Internet?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#40 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#45 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#5 Coulda, Woulda, Shoudda moments?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#79 Al Gore and the Internet
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#80 Al Gore and the Internet
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#85 Al Gore and the Internet
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#45 CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#46 diffence between itanium and alpha
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#13 COMTEN- IBM networking boxes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003j.html#1 FAST - Shame On You Caltech!!!
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003m.html#28 SR 15,15
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004g.html#12 network history
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004l.html#0 Xah Lee's Unixism
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004l.html#1 Xah Lee's Unixism
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004l.html#5 Xah Lee's Unixism
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004l.html#7 Xah Lee's Unixism
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004q.html#57 high speed network, cross-over from sci.crypt
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005d.html#10 Cerf and Kahn receive Turing award
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005d.html#11 Cerf and Kahn receive Turing award
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005d.html#13 Cerf and Kahn receive Turing award
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005j.html#30 IBM Plugs Big Iron to the College Crowd
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005u.html#53 OSI model and an interview
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> the other big change wasn't so much protocol technology (that enabled
> gateways and backbone for inter-networking) ... but the actual
> deployment of an operational backbone for inter-networking with
> nsfnet1. minor comment about not being allowed to bid on nsfnet1
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/internet.htm#0
for lots more drift ...
in this period i was into high availability, fault
isolation ... in part having helped with the clustering
and availability stuff for hone
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hone
as well as having rewritten major portions of the kernel for use by
the disk engineering lab for multiple concurrent engineering testcell
testing (previous attempts with MVS had found 15 minute MTBF with a
single testcell).
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#disk
as well as high performance processor operation and high performance
networking. one of the projects was something I named high-speed data
transport (HSDT)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#hsdt
and we had a high-speed backbone ... with both terrestrial and
sat. links ... slowest speed link was T1 (1.5mbits) full-duplex.
the original internal network technology implementation resided in a
virtual address space and relied on the vm spool-file system for file
store&forward at each node.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet
it simplified the code and facilitated deployment ... but it had a
thruput constraint. the spool-file semantics provided serialized,
synchronous 4k-byte block local transfer. with limited number of disk
arms for spool files, serialized syncronous transfers and other
processes contending for the same service ... a network node might
have max. sustained thruput of five to ten 4k-byte blocks per
second. in the early days with 9600baud half-duplex lines, 20k to 40k
byte/sec aggregate thruput probably seemed sufficient. however, a
single hsdt, slow-speed full-duplex T1 link needed a little over
300k-byte/sec sustained (each hsdt link could require a minimum of ten
times the standard aggregate thruput).
so for the heck of it, i undertook to move the vm spool file system
out of the kernel into a virtual address space, rewrite it from
scratch in pascal/vs (rather than assembler), and optimize it so hsdt
(internal network) node might be able to see several mbytes/sec
thruput sustained thruput. part of the issue of getting high thruput
was supporting multi-block asyncronous transfer semantics (including
read-ahead and write-behind). the other part was taking the kernel
assembler code and cutting the pathlength in the virtual address space
pascal implementation. some of this was the kernel implementation had
some number of linear list searches. this is analogous but different
to recent mention of tcp finwait list implementation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006d.html21 IBM 610 workstation computer
for some context of the period, we were contracting for some equipment
built to order in the far east. on the friday before leaving for a
trip across the pacific, the communication devision announced a new
discussion group on the subject of high-speed communication with the
following definitions:
low-speed <9.6kbits
medium-speed 19.2kbits
high-speed 56kbits
very high-speed 1.5mbits
Monday morning in a conference room on the other side of the pacific,
there were plaques on the wall with the following definitions
low-speed <20mbits
medium-speed 100mbits
high-speed 200-300mbits
very high-speed >600mbits
this was also in the period when the mainframe tcp/ip product (running
in virtual address space and implemented in pascal) got about
44kbytes/sec sustained thruput consuming cpu cycles of approx. full
3090 processor. I added rfc 1044 support to the implementation and in
some testing at cray research between a cray and a 4341-clone ... was
getting 1mbyte/sec sustained using about 20 percent of the 4341-clone
processor. misc. past posts mentioning rfc 1044 implementation:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#1044
as an aside ... although we weren't permitted to bid on nsfnet ... we
did go to the director of nsf and got a technical audit of the
backbone we were operating. one of the statements was that what we had
running was at least five years ahead of all nsfnet bid responses (to
build something new). minor reference to the original nsfnet backbone
program announcement and original nsfnet backbone award announcement
http://www.garlic.con/~lynn/internet.htm#nsfnet
misc. other internet historical references from my rfc index
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
and click on "misc. historical references" (in the 1st paragraph).
misc. pasts posts mentioning juxtaposition of the communication
divisions high-speed newsgroup
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#33b High Speed Data Transport (HSDT)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#69 oddly portable machines
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#45 IBM's Workplace OS (Was: .. Pink)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003m.html#59 SR 15,15
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004g.html#12 network history
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005j.html#58 Q ALLOC PAGE vs. CP Q ALLOC vs ESAMAP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005j.html#59 Q ALLOC PAGE vs. CP Q ALLOC vs ESAMAP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005n.html#25 Data communications over telegraph circuits
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005r.html#9 Intel strikes back with a parallel x86 design
misc. past posts mentioning spool file system rewrite in pascal
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#43 Migrating pages from a paging device (was Re: removal of paging device)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#33 dasd full cylinder transfer (long post warning)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#44 filesystem structure, was tape format (long post)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#46 internal network drift (was filesystem structure)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#27 SYSPROF and the 190 disk
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003k.html#26 Microkernels are not "all or nothing". Re: Multics Concepts For
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003k.html#63 SPXTAPE status from REXX
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004m.html#33 Shipwrecks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005j.html#54 Q ALLOC PAGE vs. CP Q ALLOC vs ESAMAP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005j.html#58 Q ALLOC PAGE vs. CP Q ALLOC vs ESAMAP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005n.html#36 Code density and performance?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005s.html#28 MVCIN instruction
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005s.html#46 Various kinds of System reloads
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005s.html#50 Various kinds of System reloads
Morten Reistad
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> wrote:
>stevend...@yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough) writes:
>> Actually, it's been downhill for the internet ever since they stopped
>> calling it the "ARPANET".
>
>ARPANET required dedicated 56kbit links, expensive IMPs, homogeneous
>operation (based on the IMP boxes) and lots of inter-IMP chatter (I
>remember some joke in the late 70s about the IMPs required 56kbit
>links because as the number of nodes were scaling over 200, majority
>of the bandwidth could be going for inter-IMP control traffic).
The arpanet was a learning experiment. It was explicitly
labeled as such, and was thrown onto the research community
by mr Licklieder (sp?) and associates to bring forward
modern, electronic messaging, reliable communications and
new services.
I label the learning experiment a huge success, because they(we?)
learned enough to invent TCP/IP and start the Internet.
>in some respects ISO OSI networking standard homogeneous operation and
>ARPANET homogeneous operation were similar. the big change was the
>switch-over to internetworking protocol on 1/1/83 (internets,
>gateways, etc). i've frequently contended that the internal
>network
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet
>
>was larger than the arpanet/internet (from just about the beginning
>until sometime mid-85) was because internal network nodes had something
>akin to gateway technology from the beginning (making heterogeneous
>interoperability a lot easier). at the time of the big switch-over
>the arpanet was approx. 250 nodes. By comparison, later that
>same year, the internal network celebrated its 1000th node
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/internet.htm#22
And, it should be. In a normal society the economic balance of
communcations gear is around 2:1 or 3:1 between commercial and
private entities; and it is around 5:1 to 10:1 between commercial
and public bodies, i.e. .mil+.edu+.gov.
Therefore mapping everyone into .com can in posterity be seen
as a mistake; but it is difficult to avoid.
Current internet services follow this pattern. IBM is a major
player in internet gear; perhaps as big as cisco; or at least
an honourable number two.
>various collected networking postings, many referencing how OSI
>homogeneous operation and lack of internetworking severely limited ISO
>networking standards
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#xtphsp
Because of the public requirements EUnet ran what must have been
one of the worlds biggest OSI networks in parallell with the
IP offerings. There was almost no subsctribers, and the traffic
ration was at least 5 orders of magnitude lower.
It was kind of fun to face the ISOrmites at conferences when they
were playing rethorical games about scalability, administration
and conformance. I took the podium at least 10 times and demonstrated
clearly _from experience_ that this was baloney. I even put down
representatives from the cabinet's special committee on communications.
They were pretty pro-iso for a while, but it subsided. They got
such a hammering they could be hurt politically; and the ISO
policies silently went into the bottom drawers. Ironically, the
army, police and foreign service were already internet-savvy, and
were on our customer list. We lost the bid to the Royal Palace
though.
>the other big change wasn't so much protocol technology (that enabled
>gateways and backbone for inter-networking) ... but the actual
>deployment of an operational backbone for inter-networking with
>nsfnet1. minor comment about not being allowed to bid on nsfnet1
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/internet.htm#0
Let's face it; before around 1985 there was no point in throwing
money at communications for internet-like services. Noone were
ready for it. X.25/ISO sure wasn't; they had severe problems with
filling 2 megabit lines. The Arpanet-IP transition had to be
finished, and commercial equipment be available.
The IBM offerings scaled somewhat better, but not the orders
of magnitude needed to build the Internet.
-- mrr
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Morten Reistad <fi...@last.name> writes:
> Let's face it; before around 1985 there was no point in throwing
> money at communications for internet-like services. Noone were
> ready for it. X.25/ISO sure wasn't; they had severe problems with
> filling 2 megabit lines. The Arpanet-IP transition had to be
> finished, and commercial equipment be available.
>
> The IBM offerings scaled somewhat better, but not the orders
> of magnitude needed to build the Internet.
ref:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#35 The Pankian Metaphor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#36 The Pankian Metaphor
note that during the period, the internal network wasn't exactly
public/commercial network ... it was purely the internal corporate
network that interconnected internal corporate sites around the world.
the number of nodes were purely internal corporate operations.
it was after the nsfnet backbone period and the actual deployment of
internetworking interconnections that commercial ISPs were starting to
appear.
something else that the internal network had to deal with ... compared
to arpanet/internet ... besides having to deal with a lot larger
scale-up ... was that all the links that left corporate premise had to
be encrypted. at one time, somebody claimed that the internal network
had over half of all the link encrypters in the world.
there were these little things like gov. regulations. all sorts of
problems with links from one corporate location in one country to a
corporate location in another country ... and the link had to be fully
encrypted (there were some real pains trying to get encrypted link
between, say a lab in germany and a lab in france and trying to get
the respective country PTTs to cooperate).
hsdt pushed this even harder because the links were at least T1
(1.5mbit in US and 2mbit in europe, rather than 9.6kbit or possibly
56kbit that were common at the time) ... and there weren't a whole lot
of full-speed link encrypters on the market at that time ... as well
as I didn't like paying the price of what they were charging for such
full-speed link encrypters. as a result, one of the hsdt activities
was to design some hardware that could run a heck of a lot faster
encryption, have more function and be significantly lower cost (my
target was to be able to build the boards for under $100).
the other thing that was going on in the period ... was the bitnet
academic network (and earn in europe)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#bitnet
which used the same technology as the internal network .. but was a
totally different network.
old email reference from the person being pulled into to start
and run EARN
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/~lynn/2001h.html#65
for some drift, the same person earlier had been on assignment to
cambridge (from the grenoble science center) and was responsible for
adding the additional virtualized virtual memory architecture to the
base cp/67 virtual machine support (original shadow table stuff).
recent thread in comp.arch on TLB that drifted into early virtual
machine infrastructure
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#7 About TLB in lower-level caches
also
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#0 About TLB in lower-level caches
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#1 About TLB in lower-level caches
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#2 About TLB in lower-level caches
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#5 About TLB in lower-level caches
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#6 About TLB in lower-level caches
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#12 About TLB in lower-level caches
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#15 About TLB in lower-level caches
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#19 About TLB in lower-level caches
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#20 About TLB in lower-level caches
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#25 About TLB in lower-level caches
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> Let's face it; before around 1985 there was no point in throwing
> money at communications for internet-like services. Noone were
> ready for it. X.25/ISO sure wasn't; they had severe problems with
> filling 2 megabit lines. The Arpanet-IP transition had to be
> finished, and commercial equipment be available.
nsfnet-1 backbone called for T1 links (which hsdt was already
running). the winning nsfnet-1 bid actually used full-speed T1 links
into a multiplexor that split the T1 bandwidth down to multiple
440kbits links which then were supported by IP-routers than could
supported 440kbit (at the time, hsdt was using ip-routers that
supported full T1 links). I made a joke that you could probably find
56kbit links somewhere in the world that had been multiplexed by telco
thru a T5 trunk at some point and therefor could call it a T5 network)
nsfnet-2 backbone called for full-speed T3 links.
the blue team for nsfnet-2 was made up of something like 20 people
from 7 labs around thw world. I was the red-team. I presented first
(with full-speed T3 support). Then somebody from the blue team started
presenting. About five minutes into the blue team presentation, the
person running the review interrupted and said that he would lay down
in front of a garbage truck before he allowed anything but the blue
team proposal to go forward (by five minutes into the blue team
presentation, there were already mutterings in the audience about how
poorly the blue team proposal compared to the red team proposal).
misc. hsdt
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#hsdt
ref:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#35 The Pankian Metaphor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#36 The Pankian Metaphor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#37 The Pankian Metaphor
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> nsfnet-2 backbone called for full-speed T3 links.
the previous post
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#36 The Pankian Metaphor
mentioning RFC 1044 support
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#1044
had commercial hardware that included ip-router capable of T3.
The specific mention was about doing enhancements for rfc 1044 support
for getting 1mbyte/sec (say 8-10mbits/sec) sustained out of a single
4341-clone (and a cray) ... compared to the base support that would
burn nearly a full 3090 cpu getting 44kbytes/sec sustained (say
400kbits/sec).
Eugene Miya
<jmfb...@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <dv991...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> stevend...@yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough) wrote:
>>jmfb...@aol.com says...
>>> Paul Ding <lanc...@paulding.net> wrote:
>>>>The September That Never Ended was in 1993, and WebTV came out in
>>>>1996, but things didn't start going to hell until after Win98 came out?
>>>Nope. YOu guys were bitching before that.
>>
>>Actually, it's been downhill for the internet ever since they stopped
>>calling it the "ARPANET".
>
>I disagree. I have had encounters with people who have taught
>me a lot more than I would have ever learned if I hadn't gone
>online. I have met many people I would have not known existed
>if I hadn't gone online. It was these people who got me
>interested in learning again. If it weren't for them, I'd
>have given up 10 years ago.
Amazing. I actually agree with Barb on something.
The NCP days were fun as a learning experience. Some stuff was proposed
back then which still has not worked or seen the light of day.
But while we knew things were possible, later functionality: email,
the web, multimedia, 56KB/s doesn't cut it. It's like when LISP moved
to 32-bit machines, that had to happen.
>In addition, old knowledge is getting taught to the kids
>because the bandwidth is not person-person in this medium.
>It is person-wholefuckingworld.
It's a 7-24-365 days world.
>Now, it does have its drawbacks especially for those who
>forget that newsgroups is a stop at the coffee pot type
>of conversation.
She knows the limitations.
--
jmfb...@aol.com
Thanks for cleaning the colons :-). Now I can blather.
>In article <dvbl1g$8ss...@s1264.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
> <jmfb...@aol.com> wrote:
>>In article <dv991...@drn.newsguy.com>,
>> stevend...@yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough) wrote:
>>>jmfb...@aol.com says...
>>>> Paul Ding <lanc...@paulding.net> wrote:
>>>>>The September That Never Ended was in 1993, and WebTV came out in
> Their offices near me.
>>>>>1996, but things didn't start going to hell until after Win98 came out?
>>>>Nope. YOu guys were bitching before that.
>>>
>>>Actually, it's been downhill for the internet ever since they stopped
>>>calling it the "ARPANET".
>>
>>I disagree. I have had encounters with people who have taught
>>me a lot more than I would have ever learned if I hadn't gone
>>online. I have met many people I would have not known existed
>>if I hadn't gone online. It was these people who got me
>>interested in learning again. If it weren't for them, I'd
>>have given up 10 years ago.
>
>Amazing. I actually agree with Barb on something.
<GRIN> I thought the shaking ground was an earthquake.
>
>The NCP days were fun as a learning experience. Some stuff was proposed
>back then which still has not worked or seen the light of day.
>But while we knew things were possible, later functionality: email,
>the web, multimedia, 56KB/s doesn't cut it. It's like when LISP moved
>to 32-bit machines, that had to happen.
>
>>In addition, old knowledge is getting taught to the kids
>>because the bandwidth is not person-person in this medium.
>>It is person-wholefuckingworld.
>
>It's a 7-24-365 days world.
Yes, point. This is another thing that some people find
difficult to understand. It's a psych thing I think. It
is the norm that people cannot think from the POV of
anyone at any place at any time, past, present, and future.
I don't understand this lack of thinking ability.
>
>>Now, it does have its drawbacks especially for those who
>>forget that newsgroups is a stop at the coffee pot type
>>of conversation.
>
>She knows the limitations.
I"ve been exploring it and testing newsgroup comm in hundreds
of different ways over the last 10 years. I have more to try
and I have some conclusions. My pipe dream is to implement
a device that will pop out of certain peoples' TTYs and chop
all body protusions. Like the fucking idiot yesterday who
kept broadcasting his/her ink ad, over and over and over to
almost every newsgroup. However, what was interesting, were the
ones this didn't ship his dirty diapers.
/BAH
Brian Inglis
jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>Yes, point. This is another thing that some people find
>difficult to understand. It's a psych thing I think. It
>is the norm that people cannot think from the POV of
>anyone at any place at any time, past, present, and future.
>I don't understand this lack of thinking ability.
I don't understand people who lack the thinking ability to understand
that the majority of people in other countries want to be able to
raise their families in peace according to their own cultural, legal,
and social norms, not those of western "democracies", which are
becoming more like commercial oligarchies.
--
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Brian....@CSi.com (Brian[dot]Inglis{at}SystematicSW[dot]ab[dot]ca)
fake address use address above to reply
Charlie Gibbs
Brian....@SystematicSW.Invalid (Brian Inglis) writes:
> On Tue, 21 Mar 06 12:39:06 GMT in alt.folklore.computers,
> jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Yes, point. This is another thing that some people find
>> difficult to understand. It's a psych thing I think. It
>> is the norm that people cannot think from the POV of
>> anyone at any place at any time, past, present, and future.
>> I don't understand this lack of thinking ability.
Many people call it "progress" and are quite proud of it.
> I don't understand people who lack the thinking ability to understand
> that the majority of people in other countries want to be able to
> raise their families in peace according to their own cultural, legal,
> and social norms, not those of western "democracies", which are
> becoming more like commercial oligarchies.
All bow down before our great god, The Economy!
Ever notice how those who proclaim the wonders of The Economy are
the ones who are holding the levers of power, not the ones who have
to live under and pay for it? That's why we keep hearing seemingly
oxymoronic statements like "For a better life, we must lower our
standard of living." Words llke "we" and "our" quickly change to
"you" and "your" when you challenge such people to live up to their
own words.
Charles Richmond
>
> On Tue, 21 Mar 06 12:39:06 GMT in alt.folklore.computers,
> jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>
> >Yes, point. This is another thing that some people find
> >difficult to understand. It's a psych thing I think. It
> >is the norm that people cannot think from the POV of
> >anyone at any place at any time, past, present, and future.
> >I don't understand this lack of thinking ability.
>
> I don't understand people who lack the thinking ability to understand
> that the majority of people in other countries want to be able to
> raise their families in peace according to their own cultural, legal,
> and social norms, not those of western "democracies", which are
> becoming more like commercial oligarchies.
>
spending a trillion dollars to make the Iraqis hate us more. There
are many place *here* in the U.S. where the trillion dollars would
be very useful.
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
Charles Richmond
>
> [snip...] [sinp...] [snip...]
>
> Ever notice how those who proclaim the wonders of The Economy are
> the ones who are holding the levers of power, not the ones who have
> to live under and pay for it? That's why we keep hearing seemingly
> oxymoronic statements like "For a better life, we must lower our
> standard of living." Words llke "we" and "our" quickly change to
> "you" and "your" when you challenge such people to live up to their
> own words.
>
a bad deal on Egyptian cotton, he covered the pieces of cotton
with chocolate and expected the soldiers to *eat* it.
CBFalconer
>
> Brian Inglis wrote:
>
... snip ...
>>
>> I don't understand people who lack the thinking ability to
>> understand that the majority of people in other countries want
>> to be able to raise their families in peace according to their
>> own cultural, legal, and social norms, not those of western
>> "democracies", which are becoming more like commercial
>> oligarchies.
>
> I understand that quite well. I do *not* like the U.S.
> government spending a trillion dollars to make the Iraqis hate
> us more. There are many place *here* in the U.S. where the
> trillion dollars would be very useful.
Or even other places in the world. Building is usually more
productive than destruction.
--
"Churchill and Bush can both be considered wartime leaders, just
as Secretariat and Mr Ed were both horses." - James Rhodes.
"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad
morals. We now know that it is bad economics" - FDR
jmfb...@aol.com
Brian Inglis <Brian....@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Mar 06 12:39:06 GMT in alt.folklore.computers,
>jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>
>>Yes, point. This is another thing that some people find
>>difficult to understand. It's a psych thing I think. It
>>is the norm that people cannot think from the POV of
>>anyone at any place at any time, past, present, and future.
>>I don't understand this lack of thinking ability.
>
>I don't understand people who lack the thinking ability to understand
>that the majority
Bad assumption (majority).
>of people in other countries want to be able to
>raise their families in peace according to their own cultural, legal,
>and social norms, not those of western "democracies", which are
>becoming more like commercial oligarchies.
I understand this. When that culture declares that my culture
has to be erased from the face of the Earth even if it destroys
the Earth, then I have strong objections.
Hitler and Germany had similar opinions; their culture was the only one
that should exist.
/BAH
Robert Redelmeier
> I understand this. When that culture declares that my
> culture has to be erased from the face of the Earth even
> if it destroys the Earth, then I have strong objections.
> Hitler and Germany had similar opinions; their culture was
> the only one that should exist.
Godwin!
-- Robert
Andrew Plotkin
And if you're going to Godwin, please stop crossposting it. Thanks.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
It used to be that "conservatives" were in favor of smaller government,
fiscal responsibility, and tighter constraints on the Man's ability to
monitor you, arrest you, and control your life.
Charlie Gibbs
(CBFalconer) writes:
> Charles Richmond wrote:
>
>> Brian Inglis wrote:
>>
>... snip ...
>>>
>>> I don't understand people who lack the thinking ability to
>>> understand that the majority of people in other countries want
>>> to be able to raise their families in peace according to their
>>> own cultural, legal, and social norms, not those of western
>>> "democracies", which are becoming more like commercial
>>> oligarchies.
>>
>> I understand that quite well. I do *not* like the U.S.
>> government spending a trillion dollars to make the Iraqis hate
>> us more. There are many place *here* in the U.S. where the
>> trillion dollars would be very useful.
>
> Or even other places in the world. Building is usually more
> productive than destruction.
But not nearly as much fun.
Charles Richmond
>
> In article <4420C8B2...@yahoo.com>, cbfal...@yahoo.com
> (CBFalconer) writes:
>
> > Charles Richmond wrote:
> >
> >> Brian Inglis wrote:
> >>
> >... snip ...
> >>>
> >>> I don't understand people who lack the thinking ability to
> >>> understand that the majority of people in other countries want
> >>> to be able to raise their families in peace according to their
> >>> own cultural, legal, and social norms, not those of western
> >>> "democracies", which are becoming more like commercial
> >>> oligarchies.
> >>
> >> I understand that quite well. I do *not* like the U.S.
> >> government spending a trillion dollars to make the Iraqis hate
> >> us more. There are many place *here* in the U.S. where the
> >> trillion dollars would be very useful.
> >
> > Or even other places in the world. Building is usually more
> > productive than destruction.
>
> But not nearly as much fun.
>
destroy all our most valuable possessions???
Charles Richmond
problems...is like trying to help a boy and girl that are both
*your* friends...trying to fix their relationship problems. They
just *both* end up hating you, and their problems go on.
The only people who can settle the Arab-Israeli problems are the
Arabs and the Israelis. If they can *not*, then the problem can
*not* be solved. So let them destroy each other in that case...
The U.S. got into trouble by mixing in where it did *not* belong...
Hank Oredson
news:dvrmgo$8qk...@s948.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com...
Love it ... "strong objections" ... understatement.
Seems many folks do not understand the implications of the
situation in the middle east and prefer to bash the US instead
of thinking things through.
> Hitler and Germany had similar opinions; their culture was the only one
> that should exist.
Perhaps we will end up bailing EU out .. again ...
--
... Hank
http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli
Hank Oredson
news:C1eUf.3980$tN3....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
No, pertinent comment.
No Godwin here.
The Wanderer
> "Robert Redelmeier" <red...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote in message
> news:C1eUf.3980$tN3....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
>
>> In alt.lang.asm jmfb...@aol.com wrote in part:
>>
>>> I understand this. When that culture declares that my culture
>>> has to be erased from the face of the Earth even if it destroys
>>> the Earth, then I have strong objections.
>>
>>> Hitler and Germany had similar opinions; their culture was the
>>> only one that should exist.
>>
>> Godwin!
>
> No, pertinent comment.
> No Godwin here.
I agree that it appears to be relevant, and I might even like to see the
conversation continue, but Godwin's Law provides no exceptions for
relevance.
--
The Wanderer
Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.
Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.
Robert Redelmeier
> Hank Oredson wrote:
>> "Robert Redelmeier" <red...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote in message
>>>
>>>> I understand this. When that culture declares that my culture
>>>> has to be erased from the face of the Earth even if it destroys
>>>> the Earth, then I have strong objections.
>>>
>>>> Hitler and Germany had similar opinions; their culture was the
>>>> only one that should exist.
>>>
>>> Godwin!
>>
>> No, pertinent comment. No Godwin here.
>
> I agree that it appears to be relevant, and I might even
> like to see the conversation continue, but Godwin's Law
> provides no exceptions for relevance.
For good reason: it is an inflammatory ad-hominem that
poisons further discussion.
I am also somewhat disappointed since I tend to agree with
BAH, but the ad-hominem weakens a very strong position.
-- Robert
Hank Oredson
news:6PCdnVKBneiti7_Z...@comcast.com...
> Hank Oredson wrote:
>
>> "Robert Redelmeier" <red...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:C1eUf.3980$tN3....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
>>
>>> In alt.lang.asm jmfb...@aol.com wrote in part:
>>>
>>>> I understand this. When that culture declares that my culture
>>>> has to be erased from the face of the Earth even if it destroys
>>>> the Earth, then I have strong objections.
>>>
>>>> Hitler and Germany had similar opinions; their culture was the
>>>> only one that should exist.
>>>
>>> Godwin!
>>
>> No, pertinent comment.
>> No Godwin here.
>
> I agree that it appears to be relevant, and I might even like to see the
> conversation continue, but Godwin's Law provides no exceptions for
> relevance.
The good news is that Godwin's Law never stopped anyone
from discussing anything they choose to discuss. In particular,
it certainly will not stop Barb from posting useful comments - VBG.
Matthew Russotto
Not applicable. They really ARE that bad.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.
Hank Oredson
How so? Seemed to me cogent and on topic.
Or at least on topic for this particular drift.
There is a movement on this planet at this time
that has as it's goal to remove all who do not
agree with it. Time to nip it in the bud.
Robert Redelmeier
> Seems many folks do not understand the implications of
> the situation in the middle east and prefer to bash the US
> instead of thinking things through.
The islamic reaction to the Danish cartoons deeply worries me.
Granted they are blasphemy. But:
1) Should they have been censored/banned? I see no islamic
acknowledgement that freedom of the press is sacrosanct in
the secular West, making censorship/banning itself blasphemy.
Asking someone to violate their own fundamental principles
in order to avoid offending yours is not likely to succeed
on grounds of disrespect if not outright hypocrisy.
2) The hotheads are sadly expected, but official reaction
(sanctions) is appalling: Pandering or not, the 4-month studied
response is to hold larger, unrelated groups (Danish & EU govts
& exporters) responsible for the actions of a small minority.
How can they escape responsibility for their own extremists?
-- Robert
Brian Inglis
Richmond <rich...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>> In article <4420C8B2...@yahoo.com>, cbfal...@yahoo.com
>> (CBFalconer) writes:
>>
>> > Charles Richmond wrote:
>> >
>> >> Brian Inglis wrote:
>> >>
>> >... snip ...
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't understand people who lack the thinking ability to
>> >>> understand that the majority of people in other countries want
>> >>> to be able to raise their families in peace according to their
>> >>> own cultural, legal, and social norms, not those of western
>> >>> "democracies", which are becoming more like commercial
>> >>> oligarchies.
>> >>
>> >> I understand that quite well. I do *not* like the U.S.
>> >> government spending a trillion dollars to make the Iraqis hate
>> >> us more. There are many place *here* in the U.S. where the
>> >> trillion dollars would be very useful.
>> >
>> > Or even other places in the world. Building is usually more
>> > productive than destruction.
>>
>> But not nearly as much fun.
>>
>So you are looking to hold a "potlatch", where we ceremoniously
>destroy all our most valuable possessions???
A potlatch was typically more like an Oscar presenter's gift bag where
they were enhancing their status by giving away expensive gifts.
It wasn't clear to me which side destroyed potlatch gifts or why?
Brian Inglis
jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>In article <bjvv129pf23m02jk6...@4ax.com>,
> Brian Inglis <Brian....@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
>>On Tue, 21 Mar 06 12:39:06 GMT in alt.folklore.computers,
>>jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>>Yes, point. This is another thing that some people find
>>>difficult to understand. It's a psych thing I think. It
>>>is the norm that people cannot think from the POV of
>>>anyone at any place at any time, past, present, and future.
>>>I don't understand this lack of thinking ability.
>>
>>I don't understand people who lack the thinking ability to understand
>>that the majority
>
>Bad assumption (majority).
>
>>of people in other countries want to be able to
>>raise their families in peace according to their own cultural, legal,
>>and social norms, not those of western "democracies", which are
>>becoming more like commercial oligarchies.
>
>I understand this. When that culture declares that my culture
>has to be erased from the face of the Earth even if it destroys
>the Earth, then I have strong objections.
Extremist nuts from that culture: just like the extremist nuts from
all other cultures; unfortunately too many people pay attention to
their statements, rather than looking at their actions, and acting to
counteract those (like the recently quoted ex-FBI supervisor didn't).
>Hitler and Germany had similar opinions; their culture was the only one
>that should exist.
Another extremist nut that gained political power; just remember that
the UK was given the option of joining that Axis, and could have, if
the government hadn't forced the King's abdication using a convenient
excuse: things would have been very different; a later version of that
same government killed (what they called) Zionist terrorists, and
earlier Irish republican terrorists (using horrendous tactics),
fighting for a homeland.
Many situations and perspectives change when seen as history.
Baron d'IF
> In alt.lang.asm Hank Oredson <hore...@earthlink.net> wrote in part:
> > Seems many folks do not understand the implications of
> > the situation in the middle east and prefer to bash the US
> > instead of thinking things through.
>
> The islamic reaction to the Danish cartoons deeply worries me.
> Granted they are blasphemy. But:
>
> 1) Should they have been censored/banned? I see no islamic
> acknowledgement that freedom of the press is sacrosanct in
> the secular West,
In Austria, denying the Holocaust could cost you ten years in prison.
In Sweden, offending homosexuals is worth a month in prison. By
contrast, Muslims can be offended with impunity.
jmfb...@aol.com
Robert Redelmeier <red...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
I'm surprised that you can say that in this newsgroup a.f.c.
/BAH
jmfb...@aol.com
"Hank Oredson" <hore...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"Robert Redelmeier" <red...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote in message
>news:C1eUf.3980$tN3....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
>> In alt.lang.asm jmfb...@aol.com wrote in part:
>>> I understand this. When that culture declares that my
>>> culture has to be erased from the face of the Earth even
>>> if it destroys the Earth, then I have strong objections.
>>
>>> Hitler and Germany had similar opinions; their culture was
>>> the only one that should exist.
>>
>> Godwin!
>
>
>No, pertinent comment.
>No Godwin here.
Thank you :-)).
But I'm quitting anyway. I'm tired of diaper training.
/BAH
jmfb...@aol.com
"Hank Oredson" <hore...@earthlink.net> wrote:
><jmfb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:dvrmgo$8qk...@s948.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com...
>> In article <bjvv129pf23m02jk6...@4ax.com>,
>> Brian Inglis <Brian....@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
>>>On Tue, 21 Mar 06 12:39:06 GMT in alt.folklore.computers,
>>>jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>Yes, point. This is another thing that some people find
>>>>difficult to understand. It's a psych thing I think. It
>>>>is the norm that people cannot think from the POV of
>>>>anyone at any place at any time, past, present, and future.
>>>>I don't understand this lack of thinking ability.
>>>
>>>I don't understand people who lack the thinking ability to understand
>>>that the majority
>>
>> Bad assumption (majority).
>>
>>>of people in other countries want to be able to
>>>raise their families in peace according to their own cultural, legal,
>>>and social norms, not those of western "democracies", which are
>>>becoming more like commercial oligarchies.
>>
>> I understand this. When that culture declares that my culture
>> has to be erased from the face of the Earth even if it destroys
>> the Earth, then I have strong objections.
>
>Love it ... "strong objections" ... understatement.
Yes. I tend to do that to an extreme when it's a life and death
type of topic.
>
>Seems many folks do not understand the implications of the
>situation in the middle east and prefer to bash the US instead
>of thinking things through.
I've been studying this kind of thinking to figure out how to
patch it.
>
>> Hitler and Germany had similar opinions; their culture was the only one
>> that should exist.
>
>Perhaps we will end up bailing EU out .. again ...
Nope. They will end up choosing the other side.
If you want to be accurate in predictions, the focal
point, I think, will be to learn the attitude towards
capitalism. Underneath all of the religious fervors
and smoke, it's all about trade practices. Booty
will be a legal form of acquisition again. Proof?
There are still house owners who have not patched the
hole in their roof in New Orleans. Think about it.
/BAH
Robert Redelmeier
> In article <C1eUf.3980$tN3....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>,
> Robert Redelmeier <red...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
>>In alt.lang.asm jmfb...@aol.com wrote in part:
>>> I understand this. When that culture declares that my
>>> culture has to be erased from the face of the Earth even
>>> if it destroys the Earth, then I have strong objections.
>>
>>> Hitler and Germany had similar opinions; their culture was
>>> the only one that should exist.
>>
>>Godwin!
>
> I'm surprised that you can say that in this newsgroup a.f.c.
Please note from my attribution line that I'm reading in ALA.
I don't know what goes on in AFC, but I doubt it is immune
from Godwin's law. There is a sound basis for Godwin,
and I'm surprised it isn't respected in AFC.
-- Robert
Robert Redelmeier
>> poisons further discussion.
>>
>> I am also somewhat disappointed since I tend to agree with
>> BAH, but the ad-hominem weakens a very strong position.
>
> How so? Seemed to me cogent and on topic.
> Or at least on topic for this particular drift.
Being correct or on-topic is no defense from Godwin.
If anything, it's reason to avoid anything close to Godwin.
Ad-hominem is always a weak/fallacious argument: "A is like B.
B is bad. Therfore A is bad". Far better to say "A is bad"
and detail the ways. B is just useless confusion.
> There is a movement on this planet at this time
> that has as it's goal to remove all who do not
> agree with it. Time to nip it in the bud.
Many historical movements have been similarly intolerant.
I'm reluctantly becoming convinced that intolerance cannot
be tolerated. Ironical, but necessary since intolerance
will dominate tolerance if allowed.
-- Robert
Charlie Gibbs
(Charles Richmond) writes:
> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> In article <4420C8B2...@yahoo.com>, cbfal...@yahoo.com
>> (CBFalconer) writes:
>>
>>> Or even other places in the world. Building is usually more
>>> productive than destruction.
>>
>> But not nearly as much fun.
>
> So you are looking to hold a "potlatch", where we ceremoniously
> destroy all our most valuable possessions???
Not me personally - I don't believe in destruction myself.
But our rulers regularly hold potlatches where _they_ decide
to destroy _our_ most valuable possessions - after taking a
good helping for themselves, of course.
Brian Inglis
Redelmeier <red...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
>In alt.lang.asm jmfb...@aol.com wrote in part:
>> In article <C1eUf.3980$tN3....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>,
>> Robert Redelmeier <red...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
>>>In alt.lang.asm jmfb...@aol.com wrote in part:
>>>> I understand this. When that culture declares that my
>>>> culture has to be erased from the face of the Earth even
>>>> if it destroys the Earth, then I have strong objections.
>>>
>>>> Hitler and Germany had similar opinions; their culture was
>>>> the only one that should exist.
>>>
>>>Godwin!
>>
>> I'm surprised that you can say that in this newsgroup a.f.c.
>
>Please note from my attribution line that I'm reading in ALA.
>I don't know what goes on in AFC, but I doubt it is immune
>from Godwin's law. There is a sound basis for Godwin,
>and I'm surprised it isn't respected in AFC.
There has to be a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis for Godwin to
apply: mere mention of either name in a discussion doesn't kill the
thread.
Robert Redelmeier
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:16:51 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, Robert
> Redelmeier <red...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
>>In alt.lang.asm jmfb...@aol.com wrote in part:
>>>>In alt.lang.asm jmfb...@aol.com wrote in part:
>>>>> I understand this. When that culture declares that my
>>>>> culture has to be erased from the face of the Earth even
>>>>> if it destroys the Earth, then I have strong objections.
>>>>
>>>>> Hitler and Germany had similar opinions; their culture was
>>>>> the only one that should exist.
>>>>
>>>>Godwin!
>>>
>>> I'm surprised that you can say that in this newsgroup a.f.c.
>>
>>Please note from my attribution line that I'm reading in ALA.
>>I don't know what goes on in AFC, but I doubt it is immune
>>from Godwin's law. There is a sound basis for Godwin,
>>and I'm surprised it isn't respected in AFC.
>
> There has to be a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis for
> Godwin to apply: mere mention of either name in a discussion
> doesn't kill the thread.
Granted. However "Hitler and Germany had similar opinions;"
_is_ a comparison. "similar" is a comparative operator
in the ENGLISH language.
Note the comparison does not need to be to a debate
participant. Any comparison applies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
-- Robert
Hank Oredson
news:dvu84d$8qk...@s912.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com...
Agree.
Seems a lot of folks do not understand a crusade when
it hits them right in the face ... or towers ... or subways ...
Hank Oredson
> In alt.lang.asm Hank Oredson <hore...@earthlink.net> wrote in part:
>> Seems many folks do not understand the implications of
>> the situation in the middle east and prefer to bash the US
>> instead of thinking things through.
>
> The islamic reaction to the Danish cartoons deeply worries me.
> Granted they are blasphemy. But:
>
> 1) Should they have been censored/banned? I see no islamic
"Should" is meaningless here. The norm in Denmark is to allow
such things. Have you viewed the cartoons (and the additional
cartoons added to the group)?
> acknowledgement that freedom of the press is sacrosanct in
> the secular West, making censorship/banning itself blasphemy.
Exactly.
> Asking someone to violate their own fundamental principles
> in order to avoid offending yours is not likely to succeed
> on grounds of disrespect if not outright hypocrisy.
Exactly.
> 2) The hotheads are sadly expected, but official reaction
> (sanctions) is appalling: Pandering or not, the 4-month studied
> response is to hold larger, unrelated groups (Danish & EU govts
> & exporters) responsible for the actions of a small minority.
> How can they escape responsibility for their own extremists?
It is Islam that needs to appologize.
Brian Inglis
jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>In article <bjvv129pf23m02jk6...@4ax.com>,
> Brian Inglis <Brian....@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
>>On Tue, 21 Mar 06 12:39:06 GMT in alt.folklore.computers,
>>jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>>Yes, point. This is another thing that some people find
>>>difficult to understand. It's a psych thing I think. It
>>>is the norm that people cannot think from the POV of
>>>anyone at any place at any time, past, present, and future.
>>>I don't understand this lack of thinking ability.
>>
>>I don't understand people who lack the thinking ability to understand
>>that the majority
>
>Bad assumption (majority).
>
>>of people in other countries want to be able to
>>raise their families in peace according to their own cultural, legal,
>>and social norms, not those of western "democracies", which are
>>becoming more like commercial oligarchies.
>
>I understand this. When that culture declares that my culture
>has to be erased from the face of the Earth even if it destroys
>the Earth, then I have strong objections.
Which culture: there are millions of non-Muslim Arabs, and there are
millions of non-Arab Muslims, so it can't be them.
There are hundreds of millions of non-radical and non-fundamentalist
Arab Muslims, so it can't be them either.
So I guess it has to be the small group of radical fundamentalist
Muslims?
That's not a culture, that's just another aberration.
Morten Reistad
Robert Redelmeier <red...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
>In alt.lang.asm Brian Inglis <Brian....@systematicsw.invalid> wrote in part:
>> On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:16:51 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, Robert
>> Redelmeier <red...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
>>>In alt.lang.asm jmfb...@aol.com wrote in part:
>>>> Robert Redelmeier <red...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
>>>Please note from my attribution line that I'm reading in ALA.
>>>I don't know what goes on in AFC, but I doubt it is immune
>>>from Godwin's law. There is a sound basis for Godwin,
>>>and I'm surprised it isn't respected in AFC.
>>
>> There has to be a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis for
>> Godwin to apply: mere mention of either name in a discussion
>> doesn't kill the thread.
>
>Granted. However "Hitler and Germany had similar opinions;"
>_is_ a comparison. "similar" is a comparative operator
>in the ENGLISH language.
>
>Note the comparison does not need to be to a debate
>participant. Any comparison applies:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
So, if I comment that the readership here surely must be
younger than mr Hitler, then I invoke the law ?
-- mrr
jmfb...@aol.com
"Hank Oredson" <hore...@earthlink.net> wrote:
><jmfb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:dvu84d$8qk...@s912.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com...
>> In article <bxoUf.4283$HW2....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>> "Hank Oredson" <hore...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>"Robert Redelmeier" <red...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote in message
>>>news:C1eUf.3980$tN3....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
>>>> In alt.lang.asm jmfb...@aol.com wrote in part:
>>>>> I understand this. When that culture declares that my
>>>>> culture has to be erased from the face of the Earth even
>>>>> if it destroys the Earth, then I have strong objections.
>>>>
>>>>> Hitler and Germany had similar opinions; their culture was
>>>>> the only one that should exist.
>>>>
>>>> Godwin!
>>>
>>>
>>>No, pertinent comment.
>>>No Godwin here.
>>
>> Thank you :-)).
>>
>> But I'm quitting anyway. I'm tired of diaper training.
>
>
>Agree.
>
>Seems a lot of folks do not understand a crusade when
>it hits them right in the face ... or towers ... or subways ...
If you want to get a good sense of what's going to happen,
consider the fact that Europeans are allowing these
extremists to shout fire in the theatre and calling it
religious freedom. This is utter, absolute, complete
bullshit.
/BAH
jmfb...@aol.com
Robert Redelmeier <red...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
>In alt.lang.asm Hank Oredson <hore...@earthlink.net> wrote in part:
>> "Robert Redelmeier" <red...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote in message
>>> For good reason: it is an inflammatory ad-hominem that
>>> poisons further discussion.
>>>
>>> I am also somewhat disappointed since I tend to agree with
>>> BAH, but the ad-hominem weakens a very strong position.
>>
>> How so? Seemed to me cogent and on topic.
>> Or at least on topic for this particular drift.
>
>Being correct or on-topic is no defense from Godwin.
>If anything, it's reason to avoid anything close to Godwin.
This is exactly why history always repeats itself. The
pattern has nothing to do with forgetting what happened
and everything to do with censoring any discussion.
I just figured this out last year. I feel stupid because
it took me so long to figure it out.
<snip>
/BAH
Robert Redelmeier
>>Note the comparison does not need to be to a debate
>>participant. Any comparison applies:
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
>
> So, if I comment that the readership here surely must be
> younger than mr Hitler, then I invoke the law ?
Yep!
-- Robert
Robert Redelmeier
>> Granted they are blasphemy. But:
>>
>> 1) Should they have been censored/banned? I see no islamic
>
> "Should" is meaningless here.
"meaningless" is vaguely insulting, but mostly a confession
of willful ignorance, most likely from sloth or prejudice.
Everything has meaning to the speaker, otherwise it would
not have been said.
> The norm in Denmark is to allow such things.
Indeed it is. I believe there was an investigation, and
the printing of the cartoons was found to violate no law.
However, should all matters of taste be subject to law?
> Have you viewed the cartoons (and the additional cartoons
> added to the group)?
Yes. I thought the publisher declined to publish similarly
satircal cartoons of Jesus. Understandable and perhaps
commercially motivated (as were the cartoons), but rather
strengthens the hate-speech argument.
> It is Islam that needs to appologize.
Yes, now that the publisher has apologized. As usual,
there is more than one party who has offended.
-- Robert
jmfb...@aol.com
Charles Richmond <rich...@comcast.net> wrote:
>jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> In article <bjvv129pf23m02jk6...@4ax.com>,
>> Brian Inglis <Brian....@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
>> >On Tue, 21 Mar 06 12:39:06 GMT in alt.folklore.computers,
>> >jmfb...@aol.com wrote:
>> >
>> >>Yes, point. This is another thing that some people find
>> >>difficult to understand. It's a psych thing I think. It
>> >>is the norm that people cannot think from the POV of
>> >>anyone at any place at any time, past, present, and future.
>> >>I don't understand this lack of thinking ability.
>> >
>> >I don't understand people who lack the thinking ability to understand
>> >that the majority
>>
>> Bad assumption (majority).
>>
>> >of people in other countries want to be able to
>> >raise their families in peace according to their own cultural, legal,
>> >and social norms, not those of western "democracies", which are
>> >becoming more like commercial oligarchies.
>>
>> has to be erased from the face of the Earth even if it destroys
>> the Earth, then I have strong objections.
>>
>> Hitler and Germany had similar opinions; their culture was the only one
>> that should exist.
>>
>problems...is like trying to help a boy and girl that are both
>*your* friends...trying to fix their relationship problems. They
>just *both* end up hating you, and their problems go on.
This is how the US foreign policy was (letting them kill each
other) until Russia started militarily sewing up the middle
east, the Suez Canal (this an important one) and the world's
oil production, tranportation, and distribution in 1972(I've
been getting my years mixed up). Nixon had to change this
policy overnight. One book I read said that window was 24hours
long. Another book had the timing down to a mere hour.
>
>The only people who can settle the Arab-Israeli problems are the
>Arabs and the Israelis. If they can *not*, then the problem can
>*not* be solved. So let them destroy each other in that case...
It's what the US would have done if it could have. One of things
you non-USAians don't understand is that we don't have any stomach
to become what each European country spent 1200 years trying to
achieve.
>
>The U.S. got into trouble by mixing in where it did *not* belong...
If the US cannot act in behalf of its best interests, then no
European country can do so either. Since this isn't how
the world works, I don't even have to spend time thinking about
this one.
/BAH
jmfb...@aol.com
Robert Redelmeier <red...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
>In alt.lang.asm Hank Oredson <hore...@earthlink.net> wrote in part:
>> Seems many folks do not understand the implications of
>> the situation in the middle east and prefer to bash the US
>> instead of thinking things through.
>
>The islamic reaction to the Danish cartoons deeply worries me.
Good. It was a field test of a tactic.
<snip>
/BAH
jmfb...@aol.com
Robert Redelmeier <red...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
>In alt.lang.asm jmfb...@aol.com wrote in part:
>> In article <C1eUf.3980$tN3....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>,
>> Robert Redelmeier <red...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
>>>In alt.lang.asm jmfb...@aol.com wrote in part:
>>>> I understand this. When that culture declares that my
>>>> culture has to be erased from the face of the Earth even
>>>> if it destroys the Earth, then I have strong objections.
>>>
>>>> Hitler and Germany had similar opinions; their culture was
>>>> the only one that should exist.
>>>
>>>Godwin!
>>
>> I'm surprised that you can say that in this newsgroup a.f.c.
>
>Please note from my attribution line that I'm reading in ALA.
>I don't know what goes on in AFC, but I doubt it is immune
>from Godwin's law.
It is immune.
> There is a sound basis for Godwin,
>and I'm surprised it isn't respected in AFC.
That's because we discuss everything and anything and usually
don't exchange personal ephithets. Godwin's Law has everything
to do about a discussion degenerating into name calling. This
is a four-year old's tactic to win. It has never worked and
will never work to win 100% of a discussion.
/BAH
Robert Redelmeier
>>In alt.lang.asm Hank Oredson <hore...@earthlink.net> wrote in part:
>>> Seems many folks do not understand the implications of
>>> the situation in the middle east and prefer to bash the US
>>> instead of thinking things through.
>>
>>The islamic reaction to the Danish cartoons deeply worries me.
>
> Good. It was a field test of a tactic.
It certainly looks that way with the 4 month delay. But whose
field test of what tactic? I'm aware of the rable rousing,
but many of the actors could have behaved differently.
-- Robert
Morten Reistad
The 4 month delay is pretty telling. This means the
association with the cartoons is a loose one. The
fervor of it then tells me that there are other forces at
play here.
But I don't understand what else is at play here.
Who stand to gain from this.
-- mrr
Adam Thornton
<jmfb...@aol.com> wrote:
>That's because we discuss everything and anything and usually
>don't exchange personal ephithets. Godwin's Law has everything
>to do about a discussion degenerating into name calling. This
>is a four-year old's tactic to win. It has never worked and
>will never work to win 100% of a discussion.
It works quite well for the current administration and those calling
themselves--erroneously--"conservatives."
This is humorously depicted in this week's Tom Tomorrow, actually:
http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=20528
Adam