Zork and the Future of Computerized Fantasy Simulations (Byte 1980)

23 views
Skip to first unread message

Pumpkin Power

unread,
Feb 19, 1992, 3:40:56 PM2/19/92
to

Zork and the Future of Computerized Fantasy Simulations

P David Lebling
14 Pelham Ter
Arlington MA 02174


CFS (computerized fantasy simulation) games are a new art form: the
computerized storybook. Instead of reading the story, you play it. The
author presents the story, but only as you squeeze it out of him by wit
and brute force. It's up to you to figure out what's going on, and the
satisfaction of doing so depends on how well thought out the story is.
To be fun to play, the story must be more or less consistent and complete.
To a large extent, this means that the program that embodies the story
must simulate the universe well.
I have been involved for several years with Zork, one of the larger
and (I would like to think) better worked out CFS games. The authors
(Marc Blank, Tim Anderson, Bruce Daniels, and I) have spent a lot of time
trying to make the universe of Zork as consistent and complete as possible
within the bounds of the space available. The first version of Zork was
written for the Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-10; it eventually grew
to strain even the megabyte address space of that machine. The game was
completely rewritten for microcomputers and is now limited primarily by
the size of a 5-inch floppy disk. Zork games swap data (programs and
text) into memory from the disk as needed and therefore aren't limited
by the size of the system's user memory.
Standard 5-inch floppy disks store about 100 K bytes (some store more,
some less). This works out to about 10,000 words of English prose and
a similar amount (about 40 K bytes) of code. This is large for a
microcomputer-based program, but as literature it's still only at the
short story length.
Zork is shrunk to fit into the micro-world by running on a
Zork-language virtual machine. This means that the code is running
while you are playing Zork is much more compact than the same program
would be if written in machine language (on a Radio Shack TRS-80, for
example). This is because the instruction set of the virtual machine
is tailored to CFS games. For example, the Zork-language instruction
to move an object from one room to another takes just 3 bytes of storage.
The other advantage is that the Zork code is machine independent; all it
takes to move Zork to another machine is to write the Zork-language
interpreter for that machine. Such interpreters currently exist for the
Apple II, PDP-11, PDP-10 and the TRS-80. For more details about the
Zork-language see "How to Fit a Large Program into a Small Machine," by
Marc S Blank and S W Galley, July 1980, Creative Computing.
Even using a disk to store parts of the game, the PDP-10 Zork was still
too large for the micro-world. As a result, we split it into two smaller,
independent games: The Great Underground Empire, Part I, and The Great
Underground Empire, Part II, each of which is a self-contained program.
There was room left over, so we added some new problems to round things
out.
Still, a lot of universe can fit into a microcomputer and disk. Zork
"understands" a useful subset of English (mostly imperative sentences),
including sentences as complex as "Put all of the books but the green one
under the rug." The Zork vocabulary is over 600 words and includes 100
verbs. A parser this powerful is a good-news/bad-news proposition. On
the one hand, such a parser makes possible the implementation of subtle
and realistic problems. When the most complicated sentence you can
understand is "Drop uranium," you are limited to producing certain types
of situations. If you can say "Tell the Robot 'Put the uranium in the
lead box'," then the game can become more interesting.
Zork has a fairly complicated parser for imperative sentences. It
endeavors to reduce its input to a construction of:

<verb> <direct object> <indirect object>

where the objects are optional. Prepositions are folded into the verb,
which allows Zork to differentiate

>PUT BOMB UNDER TROPHY CASE

from

>PUT BOMB IN TROPHY CASE

(lines beginning with > are the player's input.)
Similarly, adjectives are used to distinguish among several books,
doors, or any collection of like objects. In conjunction with all and
but, adjectives provide powerful constructs:

>TAKE ALL THE TREASURES
>BURN ALL THE BOOKS BUT THE BLACK ONE

The parser also allows the player to be laconic, if he so desires. If
only one object in the vicinity fits the verb he uses, it will be selected
and the player will be informed:

A menacing troll brandishing a bloody axe blocks all passages out of
the room.
>KILL TROLL
(with sword)

If the meaning is not obvious, the player is asked to clarify, and the new
input is added to the old to produce a complete sentence. This can go on
indefinitely:

>OPEN
Open what?
>DOOR
Which door do you mean?
>THE TRAP DOOR

For more details on the Zork parser and internal structure, see
"Zork: A Computerized Fantasy Simulation Game," by P David Lebling, Marc S
Blank, and Timothy A Anderson, in IEEE Computer, April 1979.
On the negative side, having a clever parser means that the player may
expect almost any concept to be understood. Unfortunately, only a small
number of concepts can be implemented given the available space.

Some concepts that Zork does implement are:

*Properties: Objects can have properties or attributes, some of them
changeable. Lamps can be on or off, treasures valuable or worthless,
villains fighting-mad or peaceful. Some of these properties never change;
a container is always a container for example. But other properties can
change; for example, some containers may be opened and closed at will.
*Containment: Objects may have contents. Bottles can contain water and
be open or closed. Some objects are transparent. Some objects must be
unlocked before they can be opened. The capacity of an object is limited.
(For example, a paper bag won't hold as much as a bucket.)
*Weight: Objects have weight. A solid gold coffin weighs a lot more than
a newspaper. The amount a player can carry depends on the total number
of objects carried and on the total weight of the objects and their
contents.
*Position: An object may be in, on, or under another object.
*Vehicles: The player may be in a vehicle which is travelling through the
locations in a game. In addition to the player, the vehicle may have other
contents distinct from the player's belongings and the "contents" of the
location.
*Time: Game events may be scheduled to happen at arbitrary future times.
Time-bombs may go off, matches burn out, lanterns grow dimmer, and so on.
*Actors: Actors are other characters who have roles in the game. They may
fight or choose not to. They may speak to the player or be spoken to.
They may move around or stay in a particular place.
*Fighting: The player may engage in combat with other inhabitants of the
game. He may be wounded (affecting his ability to carry heavy loads), or
he may kill his opponent and retrieve the opponent's weapon.

Every object in Zork has a pointer to its location (which may be to
"nowhere"), which is its parent; a pointer to the next object in the same
location, which is its sibling; and a pointer to its first contents, which
is its first child. Thus a container points to its contents, and the
contents point back to it.
One result of this implementation is that an object can be in only one
place at one time. Things like water, which can potentially be infinitely
finely divided, are difficult to implement in Zork for this reason.
Consequently Zork has two "water" objects; one for water in general (flowing
in streams, filling reservoirs, leaking from pipes) and one for water in
the player's possession (in a bottle, for example). In handling water, the
general sort always eventually ends up as a specific sort, and exceptions
aren't tolerated:

>FILL BOTTLE WITH WATER
The bottle is now full of water.
>POUR WATER
The water spills to the ground and evaporates.

Another aspect of containment involves problems of weight and capacity.
The weight of an object must always be the sum of its own weight and the
weight of its contents. Naturally, each of the contained objects has its
weight calculated the same way. On the other hand, the volume of an object
if filled only by the size of the objects directly in it.

LOOK
You are in the magic boat.
The magic boat contains:
A shovel.
A lamp.
A solid-gold coffin.
The solid-gold coffin contains:
A brown sack.
The brown sack contains:
A lunch.
A clove of garlic.

Of course, containers have other properties. They can be open or closed,
opaque or transparent, locked or unlocked.

>INVENTORY
You are carrying:
A glass bottle.
The glass bottle contains:
A quantity of water.
>DRINK WATER
I can't reach the quantity of water.
>OPEN BOTTLE
Opened.
>DRINK WATER
Thank you very much, I was rather thirsty.

The concept of a surface is implemented as a special kind of containment.
Objects which have surfaces on which other objects may sit are actually
containers with an additional property of "surfaceness."
Vehicles are an even more specialized case of containers. A vehicle has
a property that is allowed a chance to give special handling to and input
of the player. For example, a spaceship vehicle might want to restrict
the player's movement during the acceleration phase of a flight or prevent
him from taking objects that are outside the ship.
Possibly the most useful concept in Zork is that of time. An arbitrary
even may be scheduled to occur at an arbitrary time in the future: for
example, the discharging of the batteries in the lantern is controlled in
this way.
Introducing time also introduces some problems. If an event is
scheduled, the circumstances under which it is valid must be coded into it.
Otherwise, the behaviour of the game can appear to be nonsensical. Suppose
the player lights the fuse on some dynamite. If he sticks around, he will
be blown to smithereens. He runs away, only to find that the dynamite has
apparently followed him. He still gets blown up because, when the explosion
happens, the program doesn't check to see if he is still there.
One method of dealing with players who are "killed" in Zork is to resurrect
them in a forest. In an early version of Zork, it was possible to be killed
by the collapse of an unstable room. Due to carelessness with scheduling
such a collapse, 50,000 pounds of rock might fall on your head during a
stroll down a forest path. Meteors, no doubt.
In an effort to introduce a little more randomness into what was at one
time a deterministic game, we added fighting. The player was allowed to
attack any of the monsters or other characters he encountered during his
travels. The scheme we implemented is conceptually simple. There is a
range of possible outcomes for any attack, either by the player on a
villain, or vice versa. You can be killed outright, knocked unconscious,
wounded, wounded seriously, staggered, or you can have your weapon knocked
from your hand.
The villain, each time it is his turn to riposte has the option of
parrying or turning and running (if he is not limited to one room, as the
troll is). Some weapons are better against certain opponents than others.
The relative strengths of player and opponent figure into the outcome as
well (the player's strength is a function of health and progress in the
game). The results are a selection of appropriate messages describing
the fight as it progresses.

>KILL THIEF WITH SWORD
Clang! Crash! The thief parries.
>AGAIN
The thief receives a deep gash on his side.
>KILL
The thief slowly approaches, strikes like a snake, and leaves you wounded.
>ATTACK
The thief is disarmed by a subtle feint past his guard. The robber, somewhat
surprised at this turn of events, nimbly retrieves his stiletto.
>KILL THIEF
A good stroke! Blood wells down the thief's leg. You evidently frightened
the robber. He flees, but the contents of his bag fall to the floor.

Well, he may live to fight another day, but you recovered some of his
booty. Fighting in Zork is pretty primitive when compared to real life or
even to a "melee" in the popular game Dungeons and Dragons. You could make
combat more elaborate, and in fact there are CFS games that have gone in
that direction, producing quite realistic "hack and slash" games.
Possibly, the most enjoyable aspect of writing Zork was designing the
other characters the player may encounter. zork contains various other
actors, including a troll, a thief, a wizard, various monsters and friendly
gnomes, and a beautiful princess. Some of these are pretty simple. The
troll is basically an obstacle. He doesn't move but merely bars the way
and must be defeated by force of arms.
The thief, on the other hand, is embodied by a complex program. After a
while, he begins to take on a personality of his own: the slightly down-at-
the heels younger son of a noble family, perhaps. He is cultivated but has
a rather nasty sense of humor. For example, his idea of fun is to foul up
the standard Adventure maze-mapping technique of identifying rooms by
dropping objects in them. When he finds a player doing that, he will wander
around switching objects, no doubt chuckling all the while:

You are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike.
>DROP KNIFE
Dropped.
In the distance, you hear a voice saying, "My, I wonder what this fine rope
is doing here?"

Some actions of the thief are motivated by the characterization; he is
unlikely to kill you during a fight if he knocks the weapon out of your
hand--too well bred. On the other hand, maybe his thiefly reflexes will get
the better of him. . . . Many of the thief's actions are motivated by simple
probability. There is a certain chance he will stop in one room while
roaming around, a certain probability that he will steal any particular
object (high for treasures, of course), and a probability that he will decide
to attack the player. His behaviour, nonetheless, can seem very realistic:
Sometimes he seems to dog the player, who no sooner finds a treasure than
the thief filches it.
There is a rich range of possibilities in producing games in which
characters in the story (other than the player) act more like real people
and less like monsters of one-dimensional villains. But the simulation of
human behaviour is still an unsolved problem in the field of artificial
intelligence. The best approximations to have have been the classic
simulations of a nondirective psychotherapist (Weizenbaum's Eliza) and of
a psychotic paranoid (Colby's Parry). But even they would not make very
interesting characters in a story. (These two curious beings actually met
once, as recorded in "Parry Encounters the Doctor" by Vinton Cerf, in
Datamation, July 1973.)
There are other, more mundane areas in which Zork could be extended. For
example, take a simple concept like clothing. If the player can reference
his clothing (or even a magic ring he might be wearing) some interesting
questions arise. Is there a distinction between wearing something and
carrying something? Probably, because when the player says "drop all," he
probably doesn't mean to include his clothes. Also, the existence of
clothes probably means the definition of many parts of the body. You could
take this to extremes:

>INVENTORY
You are empty-handed.
You are wearing a diamond ring on your right index finger.
You are wearing bells on your toes.
You are wearing a coonskin cap on your head.

Of course, if you implement clothes, there might as well be pockets, and
backpacks, and other "different" sorts of containers. It would have to be
defined whether the player can reference things inside them (what if the
flap of the backpack is closed, for example?). What happens if he falls into
a lake? Do the clothes drag him down? What about wearing a suit of armour?
Clothes probably need a weight or need to produce a fatigue effect on the
player.
The mention of falling into a lake brings up another possible extension to
Zork. Currently players aren't allowed to swim. One reason was to avoid the
problems associated with the player's belongings dragging him under. Another
is the question of what happens to his belongings. Do they get wet? If so,
do they ever dry out again? What about wet matches (to give one example)?
Is wet paper still burnable? How long can the player swim? Can he hold his
breath and swim underwater? There are any number of questions that have to
be considered if such a feature is to be implemented.
Even the addition of a run-of-the-mill object can produce complications.
In early versions of Zork, the troll's axe disappeared when he was killed.
We finally decided to let the player recover it, as advances in Zork weapons
technology removed the reason for destroying it. Unfortunately, we didn't
think it through. One of our best play testers, on hearing that "you can
finally get the axe," immediately said, "Great, I'm going to go up to the
forest and chop down some trees." Oops. We never thought of that, not to
mention using the axe to chop through doors, split timbers, and any number
of other commonplace uses for something we were thinking of as strictly a
weapon.
The authors of Zork have thought about several possible extensions to
the Zork parser. One that has come up many times is to add adverbs. A
player should be able to do the following:

>GO NORTH QUIETLY
You sneak past a sleeping lion who sniffs but doesn't wake up.

The problem is to think of reasons why you would not do everything "quietly,"
"carefully," or whatever. Perhaps there should be time and fatigue penalties
for doing things in a nonstandard way:

>SEARCH WALL CAREFULLY

This would take a long time (and all the while the lamp is burning down),
possible tiring the player out. To be fair to the player, he should not
need to search every wall carefully, or walk quietly everywhere. There
should be reasonable clues or hints as to why and where he should do such
things.
This long discussion of the problems of extending Zork is not intended
to scare anyone (including the authors of the game). The idea is to show
that apparently simple extensions to the game have their nonobvious
ramifications. Of course, it would be simple to ignore them, but we think
that the authors of a game should play fair with the players. Just as it's
disappointing to see the wires holding up Flash Gordon's spaceship, it's
disappointing to see:

>PUT RING ON FINGER
I don't know the word 'finger'.

We authors would hardly claim that Zork is perfect in this respect, but
we have made an effort in that direction. When we add something new, we
try to think of how the player might try to apply it. Within the space
available, we've tried to put most of those things in.
All the CFS games that I have encountered are similar in one major
respect: they are about problem solving and the acquisition of treasure.
This is probably because a structure containing problems and rewards is
obvious and easy to implement.
It is possible to imagine games in which the goals are different. Some
programmers in southern California have designed a game in which the moral
choices the player makes have a significant impact on the game. For example,
does the player give an old man some water? Similarly, the problem-solving
idea could be shifted into something closer to scientific research. The
player could be introduced into an environment where he performs experiments,
ponders the results, and ultimately gains understanding and control of that
environment.
Innovations in form as well as content are possible. There are already
CFS games that try to give the player a graphic view of his surroundings.
As microcomputer technology advances, this will become more common, and the
renditions will achieve higher quality: it will be technically feasible to
have a CFS game "illustrated" by Frank Frazetta or Jeff Jones. On the other
hand, the player's imagination probably has a more detailed picture of the
Great Underground Empire than could ever be drawn. I can even recall
discussions among the game's implementors over who should play the thief in
the movie version.
Another area where experimentation is going on is that of multiplayer CFS
games. Each player (possibly not even aware of how many others are playing)
would see only his own view of the territory. He would be notified when
other players enter or leave the room, and could talk to them. There was
briefly a multiplayer version of the PDP-10 Zork several years ago, and
today there is a "Multiple User Dungeon" at Essex University in England.
There are major problems, however. One is producing problems that are
compatible with different numbers of players (from one to, say, a dozen).
If it takes five players to solve a problem (one to hold the light bulb and
four to turn the ladder?), what happens if only two people are playing?
The other problem, as far as the microcomputer owner is concerned, is that
few can afford an unlimited number of machines or even video monitors to
accommodate so many players.
CFS games as an art form can continue to grow as long as their medium
continues to grow. Zork is already constricted by the size of today's
microprocessors (it was large even on the PDP-10), but the new generations
of 16- and 32-bit machines offer the opportunity of enormous further growth.
The possibilities of new concepts, new milieux, and new purposes are enormous.
We would like to think that it will not be long before authors view such
scenarios as just another medium of expression. I find the prospect exciting
because I enjoy playing CFS games as much as writing them.

Byte, December 1980, pages 172-182.

Transcribed by : Peter Barton
s89...@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au
pum...@phoenix.pub.uu.oz.au

If there are any errors, or if you have other documents relating to Infocom
then please contact me via email.


--

Geoff Langdale

unread,
Feb 19, 1992, 11:44:20 PM2/19/92
to
Can anyone tell me about archive sites of text adventure game building tools?
I have seen Zmachine but as far as I can tell it is limited to interpreting
already built Infocom adventures, with no way of creating your own - although
I think it would be great to be able to create stuff that could be used with
it, I am not sure whether it is possible.
Can anyone tell me about this, or other such game building tools. Preffered
environment C/Unix but can cope with C/Pascal on Amiga/Mac if absolutely
necessary <cringe>.

Please email or post.

geo...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au

David M. Baggett

unread,
Feb 20, 1992, 10:31:20 AM2/20/92
to
In article <41...@cluster.cs.su.oz.au> geo...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au ( Geoff Langdale ) writes:
>Can anyone tell me about archive sites of text adventure game building tools?

One such system is TADS; there are others that I'm sure other people can
point you towards.

TADS is available for the PC, Mac, and Atari ST, from the following sites:

msdos.archive.umich.edu: msdos/games/textadv/tads.zip
atari.archive.umich.edu: atari/games/tads/tads.lzh
mac.archive.umich.edu: mac/games/games.utilities/tads1.04.cpt.hqx

There's no Unix and no Amiga version.

I've had good luck with TADS. Your mileage may vary.

Dave Baggett
d...@wam.umd.edu

Jacob S. Weinstein

unread,
Feb 20, 1992, 12:09:43 PM2/20/92
to
In article <1992Feb20.1...@wam.umd.edu> d...@wam.umd.edu (David M. Baggett) writes:
>In article <41...@cluster.cs.su.oz.au> geo...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au ( Geoff Langdale ) writes:
>>Can anyone tell me about archive sites of text adventure game building tools?
>
>One such system is TADS; there are others that I'm sure other people can
>point you towards.
>
>I've had good luck with TADS. Your mileage may vary.
>
>Dave Baggett
>d...@wam.umd.edu


I'd just like to add my praise of TADS. Not only is it a great
language; I've found that the author is very willing to answer questions
via e-mail, which is a real blessing when you can't figure out why your
program won't run... I give TADS (and Michael J. Roberts, the author)
a definite thumbs up.

--
***********************************************************************
* || I have discovered a truly wonderful quote, but, *
* Jacob Weinstein || unfortunately, this .sig is too small to contain*
* || it. *

Paul Trauth

unread,
Feb 21, 1992, 7:04:40 PM2/21/92
to
In a message dated Thu 20 Feb 92 00:44, Geo...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au ( Geoff L
wrote:
GGL> Can anyone tell me about archive sites of text adventure game
GGL> building tools?
GGL> I have seen Zmachine but as far as I can tell it is limited to
GGL> interpreting
GGL> already built Infocom adventures, with no way of creating your own -
GGL> although
GGL> I think it would be great to be able to create stuff that could be
GGL> used with
GGL> it, I am not sure whether it is possible.
GGL> Can anyone tell me about this, or other such game building tools.
You'd have to write a ZIL (Zork Implementation Language) compiler to use
the Z-Machine for your own games.
Check out ADL. It's on Fred Fish disk #91, available wherever you get your
Fish from. I've played around with it some; it's fairly sophisticated. i
made a small start on an adventure using it, about 7 rooms, some objects,
and a few thingst to do...

-- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

- Be zorch, daddi-o
--------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------Paul `raccoon'
Trauth------------------------
Internet -> paul_...@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US <- possibly the preferred
mail address, possibly not.
Usenet -> rex!agwbbs!paul_trauth
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"eagles may fly, but a weasel will never get sucked into a jet engine"

Geoff Langdale

unread,
Feb 21, 1992, 9:09:31 PM2/21/92
to
In article <Paul_Tra...@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US> Paul_...@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Paul Trauth) writes:
> You'd have to write a ZIL (Zork Implementation Language) compiler to use
>the Z-Machine for your own games.
>Check out ADL. It's on Fred Fish disk #91, available wherever you get your
>Fish from. I've played around with it some; it's fairly sophisticated. i
>made a small start on an adventure using it, about 7 rooms, some objects,
>and a few thingst to do...
I have ADL, and have played with it a bit. The fact that you make an acronym of
Zork Implementation Language implies at least one such exists: no doubt the
original commercial version. Does anyone know if any other implementations have
been written? If not, does anyone know how one could get enough information
about formats, etc to write one?

geo...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au

PS. Thanks to all those people who responded. TADS looks interesting but
sans source, I'm not sure if it's what I'm after. Oh well....

Thomas Nilsson

unread,
Feb 24, 1992, 9:04:21 PM2/24/92
to
geo...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au ( Geoff Langdale ) writes:

>Can anyone tell me about archive sites of text adventure game building tools?

May I offer my contribution to the plethora of interactive fiction
tools? Off and on during a number of years a friend and I have been
developing a special purpose language for creating text adventure
games. Our goal have been to create a notation (language if you will)
that will remove the major part of the programming currently involved
in creating an adventure game. Thus you could concentrate on the
authoring parts of creating GOOD interactive fiction, a task vastly
more complicated than programming a game.

As with all very high level tools you need to give up some flexibility
to gain ease-of-use and productivity. Still this language has served
us well for creating some interesting experiments in the field of
interactive fiction.

The language is called ALAN (Adventure Language, sic) and contains
constructs to cope with objects, locations, actors, rules, complete
syntax definitions of player input, etc.

An as yet incomplete (but still 80-pages) documentation is available
in plain text or PostScript on demand. Sorry no FTP, please email and
I'll supply docs (please specify format), and to interested partys
also executables (in some archive format).

The Alan system is currently available for Amiga and Sun/UNIX,
PC-ports have been attempted but not completed as the workload (from
which we earn our living) has pile up.

Finally remember, a good adventure game is at least as hard to write
as a good book... (how about a thread on that, r.a.i-f?).


Happy authoring...

/Thomas
--
Little languages go a long way...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Nilsson Phone Int.: (+46) 13 12 11 67
Stenbrotsgatan 57 Phone Nat.: 013 - 12 11 67
S-582 47 LINKOPING Email: th...@softlab.se
SWWEDEN Thomas_...@augs.se
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ethan Dicks

unread,
Feb 24, 1992, 12:32:08 PM2/24/92
to
In article <1992Feb20.1...@Princeton.EDU> jac...@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jacob S. Weinstein) writes:
> I'd just like to add my praise of TADS. Not only is it a great
>language; I've found that the author is very willing to answer questions
>via e-mail, which is a real blessing when you can't figure out why your
>program won't run... I give TADS (and Michael J. Roberts, the author)
>a definite thumbs up.

I would like to raise a *BIG* complaint about TADS. Not everyone in the
world runs MS-DOG or a Mac as their primary platform.

Why is there no support for UNIX or the Amiga? If necessary, I would port
it myself.

I have been a player of text based adventures for a long time (since the days
of the Scott Adams adventures, in BASIC, on the PET) and relish a platform
which could rival ZIL for its portability. The best platform I have found
which runs on the machines I use daily is AdvSys by David Betz, available for
UNIX in the comp.sources.games archives and for AmigaDOS from the Fred Fish
library. It is fully object oriented, supports inheritance and encapsulation
and (for UNIX) comes with source code.

-ethan

--
Ethan Dicks ! Sponsored by the breakfast of Pennsic Veterans everywhere...
! "Beerios. They don't stay crisp in beer, but who cares?"

e...@kumiss.UUCP -or- n8emr!uncle!jcnpc!kumiss!e...@zaphod.mps.ohio-state.EDU

Steven Eric Schwartz

unread,
Feb 25, 1992, 5:53:05 PM2/25/92
to
Ok, so where are the archives for comp.sys.games?


Steven

D John McKenna

unread,
Feb 25, 1992, 9:47:17 PM2/25/92
to
e...@kumiss.UUCP (Ethan Dicks) writes:

>In article <1992Feb20.1...@Princeton.EDU> jac...@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jacob S. Weinstein) writes:
>> I'd just like to add my praise of TADS. Not only is it a great
>>language; I've found that the author is very willing to answer questions
>>via e-mail, which is a real blessing when you can't figure out why your
>>program won't run... I give TADS (and Michael J. Roberts, the author)
>>a definite thumbs up.

>I would like to raise a *BIG* complaint about TADS. Not everyone in the
>world runs MS-DOG or a Mac as their primary platform.

> The best platform I have found


>which runs on the machines I use daily is AdvSys by David Betz, available for
>UNIX in the comp.sources.games archives and for AmigaDOS from the Fred Fish
>library. It is fully object oriented, supports inheritance and encapsulation
>and (for UNIX) comes with source code.

Stick to Advsys - it's much better. TADS doesn't support a real
heirachy of objects in the way that AdvSys does, and AdvSys has source,
so you can finetune the parser, and pseudo-system functions, etc.

Steven McLeod (posing as gudjm) - Of course, that's just my (humble)
opinion...

Steven Eric Schwartz

unread,
Feb 26, 1992, 10:28:20 AM2/26/92
to
In article <1992Feb25.2...@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> schw...@cps3xx.cps.msu.edu (Steven Eric Schwartz) writes:
>Ok, so where are the archives for comp.sys.games?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|
|__ I meant comp.sources.games


Steven

Norman St. John Polevaulter

unread,
Feb 26, 1992, 5:58:13 PM2/26/92
to
Here's something I'm curious to see the net.opinion about.

What do you think of the general idea behind adventure game creation
in MUDs, such as TinyMUSH? The idea here is that rooms, objects, and
so forth are built, programmed, and debugged on the spot by a player
inside the game.

The reason being that I have been tentatively planning how to write
an IF-creating system, and the "you are there" system seems like the
best method to me. The reason being that you have immediate feedback
on every change if you wish -- going through an edit-compile-run cycle
every time is tremendously inconvenient compared to this. (Sort of
like debugging a compiled language vs. debugging an interpreted language.)
And, of course, once the game is written you merely disable the player's
"wizard" commands and voila -- a playable game.

Of course, it wouldn't be a good idea to take the existing TinyMUSH code
as a jumping-off point -- the reason being that TinyMUSH is basically
a collection of hack piled on top of hack with the ancient TinyMUD program
at its core. As well, it's extremely limited compared to the IF we all
know and love; among other things, it's restricted to "verb the noun" commands
unless explicitly told otherwise. The project would have to start from
scratch, and so it's a good idea to plan its capabilities beforehand.

So: opinions? And what sort of things would you like to see in a project
like this?

[Your blood pressure just went up.] Mark Sachs IS: mbs...@psuvm.psu.edu
DISCLAIMER: Penn State cares about my money, not my opinions.
"All my father wanted to do was make a toaster you could really set the
darkness on -- and you perverted his work into those horrible machines!"

From A to B

unread,
Feb 27, 1992, 10:17:09 AM2/27/92
to
e...@kumiss.UUCP (Ethan Dicks) writes:
> I would like to raise a *BIG* complaint about TADS. Not everyone in the
> world runs MS-DOG or a Mac as their primary platform.
>
> Why is there no support for UNIX or the Amiga? If necessary, I would port
> it myself.

Spot the Amiga owner who's pissed that there's an >>>ATARI ST<<< version
but no Amiga version...

Heh heh heh heh.


mathew

--
Hail Eris! / "Our whole economy's based on fear and death; how long can we get
away with this?" --- Jello Biafra / Message for Kodak: Bring back Dan Bredy! /
PGP RSA public key available on request / Desperately seeking Negativland's U2
CD / Just another would-be Mac owner put off by Apple's monopolistic practices

D John McKenna

unread,
Feb 27, 1992, 7:57:31 PM2/27/92
to
MBS...@psuvm.psu.edu (Norman St. John Polevaulter) writes:

>Here's something I'm curious to see the net.opinion about.

>What do you think of the general idea behind adventure game creation
>in MUDs, such as TinyMUSH? The idea here is that rooms, objects, and
>so forth are built, programmed, and debugged on the spot by a player
>inside the game.

>The reason being that I have been tentatively planning how to write
>an IF-creating system, and the "you are there" system seems like the
>best method to me. The reason being that you have immediate feedback
>on every change if you wish -- going through an edit-compile-run cycle
>every time is tremendously inconvenient compared to this. (Sort of
>like debugging a compiled language vs. debugging an interpreted language.)
>And, of course, once the game is written you merely disable the player's
>"wizard" commands and voila -- a playable game.

This is something I have been doing in spare time for a while. I have
it to a stage where you can actually create objects whilst playing - in,
on, under, or behind other objects. To disable what you call wizard
mode, you simply remove the definition of the 'createobj' verb. I've
written a nice parser for it. However I have run out of enthusiasm, and
you can't manipulate objects yet. All the frame work for this has been
written, but I simply can't be bothered doing any more.

BTW: It's in C, and I did it all in Minix.

Sean Barrett

unread,
Feb 28, 1992, 12:50:31 AM2/28/92
to
gu...@uniwa.uwa.oz.au (D John McKenna) writes:
>This is something I have been doing in spare time for a while. I have
>it to a stage where you can actually create objects whilst playing - in,
>on, under, or behind other objects.
>
>BTW: It's in C, and I did it all in Minix.

This means you'd require a recompile if you needed to write code
for a new object. An interpreted language is the way to go.

More than three years ago I gave up on Advsys' lack of "local functions"
(that is, methods) and began designing a language. The only serious
attempt at writing it was aborted when the two of us working on it
weren't getting very far, and I was just discovering muds.

I modified the language to support multi-user I/O, and started from
scratch a year ago last thanksgiving. Initial development was on
an IBM PC; the interpreter was lisp-like, like ADVSYS. Most of the code
was written over that Christmas break.

In January I ported to unix, added a C-style front end, and did lots
of work to clean up the code. It is no longer PC-able. The language
cannot create PC-adventure-game-style "save files", because anything
in the game is changeable; it can only dump all of its memory. There
is an IO mode that supports a single-user mode.

The language, while powerful (e.g. multiple-inheritence) and dynamic
(e.g. inheritence trees can be modified on the fly), is somewhat slow.
It also has no basic-definition files--you have to create everything
from scratch (just as I had to throw out the basic definition files
of ADVSYS because they were too constraining), because I haven't had
time to work on them--and there are no docs to guide you through this
process. There *are* a lot of language docs, and there is a sample
beginnings-of-a-mud that you can use to try to decipher what to do.

I haven't touched it in about 8 months; I have spent some time working
on the basic files for a serious mud, which is relatively powerful
right now, but I have no plans to release it--or if I do, I'll have
to castrate some features which I have permission (from some people
with whom I essentially have a non-disclosure agreement) to use.

I have found that it's very joyful to be able to do mud-style building,
myself. But you need a decent on-line editor to do on-line programming.

If you have an interest in using the system, called Sludge, I can
put it up for anon ftp somewhere. All you get, come right down to
it, is a powerful dynamic pretty-darn-OO C interpreted system that
can define new methods on the fly, and has built-in support for
dynamically stretching arrays (and strings), and a built-in internet
interface (very low-level though), in about 10,000 lines of code.
Executable on a Sparc was about 250k stripped, I think. And it
wants 32-bit ints.

It does not have a parser. You are expected to write that in
the interpreted language. (When I have a stabilized parser, I
will add some primitives that help speed up parsing, at least in
my case.)

And the whole thing may be too slow. I've never gotten to the point
where I could give it a serious workout to know if it is or not.

Sean Barrett
buz...@eng.umd.edu

Duane R. Gibson

unread,
Feb 28, 1992, 11:10:10 AM2/28/92
to
In article <92057.175...@psuvm.psu.edu>, MBS...@psuvm.psu.edu (Norman St. John Polevaulter) writes:
> Here's something I'm curious to see the net.opinion about.
>
> What do you think of the general idea behind adventure game creation
> in MUDs, such as TinyMUSH? The idea here is that rooms, objects, and
> so forth are built, programmed, and debugged on the spot by a player
> inside the game.
>
> The reason being that I have been tentatively planning how to write
> an IF-creating system, and the "you are there" system seems like the
> best method to me. [...reasons deleted]

I like the concept of being able to create and test the game interactively.
So much so, in fact, that I started working on just the kind of system
that you describe. Like you, I thought a MUD was too complicated and
the parser was primitive. But I did not want to write the system from
scratch. So I have started with ADVSYS (available from comp.sources.games (?)
archives) as a base.

> So: opinions? And what sort of things would you like to see in a project
> like this?

Obviously I want all the creation commands available, the ability to print
out object states and methods (for debugging), and the system would be
useless without a "dump" or "save" command ;).
I would also like source available (being an incurable code hacker at
heart :).

Are you planning on starting this project?

--
## Duane R. Gibson du...@Unify.Com
## "In fact, he was dead when he came to visit us last friday."
## -Hercule Poirot

Norman St. John Polevaulter

unread,
Mar 5, 1992, 12:16:10 AM3/5/92
to
In article <k9o...@Unify.Com>, du...@Unify.com (Duane R. Gibson) says:
>I like the concept of being able to create and test the game interactively.
>So much so, in fact, that I started working on just the kind of system
>that you describe. Like you, I thought a MUD was too complicated and the
>parser was primitive. But I did not want to write the system from scratch.
>So I have started with ADVSYS (available from comp.sources.games
>(?) archives) as a base.

Hmm, there's someplace I should check out first. Did you get anywhere?

>> So: opinions? And what sort of things would you like to see in a project
>> like this?
> Obviously I want all the creation commands available, the
>ability to print out object states and methods (for debugging), and the
>system would be useless without a "dump" or "save" command ;).

Creation commands is a go. Basically, there'll be only one sort of object
which can serve as rooms or "things". I toyed with the idea of separating
objects, a la TinyMUSH, but realized it was unnecessary. Verbs are attached
to the "universe" object and can have defaults and special definitions for
particular objects. F'rexample, here's a take verb I just dashed off...

\forall [object] /* Loop through all present objs */
\if [object].loc == #1 /* Already carried? */
\echo "You already have that!"
\exit
\if [object].take == 0 /* Flag 0: Untakeable. */
\echo "You can't take that."
\exit
\if [object].take == 1 /* Flag 1: Takeable normally. */
\if #1.invno >= 7 /* A limited inventory size */
\echo "You're juggling too much stuff already!"
\exit
\echo "Taken." /* Taken OK: increase .invno */
\add #1.invno1 #1 /* count, move object into player. */
\move [object] #1
\exit
\do [object].take /* If something else in .take, execute it. */
\endfor

(The syntax is admittedly clunky, but I designed it for ease of
implementation in C first, and ease of writing in second. Still, it doesn't
seem too bad. And note that with the exception of .loc, indicating an
object's location, all of the variables and so forth -- .take, .invno, etc
-- are user-defined for maximum flexibility. As an example, this thing
could easily be rewritten to take into account differently sized objects, by
adding a .weight variable to everything and a .carry variable to the player,
and checking it appropriately.)

Printouts are an excellent idea, of course. And without a doubt
there'll be a DUMP command... I've been trying to work out how to save a
game in progress, in fact, without doing a complete dump of the whole
database. I haven't yet -- aha! Inspiration strikes! Perhaps, when the
save game command is issued, a diff could be made between the current state
of the game and its state upon loading. Yes, that would do it.

>I would also like source available (being an incurable code hacker at
>heart :).

Works for me...

>Are you planning on starting this project?

Ideally, yes. I may have a big space of free time coming up to at least
start it. It would be implemented on an Amiga system, BTW, but I doubt
there'd be much in there making it difficult to port to whatever-you-want.

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages