I've missed this place

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Russ Bryan

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Jun 2, 2001, 3:14:15 PM6/2/01
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Just for the hell of it I entered my name into a search engine and just
about every single entry was from various postings in this very newsgroup
(well, truthfully, 90% of them were from Cardinal T.'s signature, but let's
not split hairs). Then, just for the hell of it, I checked out ftp.gmd.de
and discovered that, miracle of miracles, the fourth edition of the Inform
Designer's Manual has been released (my eternal thanks to Graham Nelson for
all the vaporware he has inspired me to write).

Since this would seem to be the only nook / cranny on the internet that I
have had any impact on whatsoever, I guess I'll start hanging out here
again. Might even enter the competition this year (vaporware announcement
#33 and counting).

Out of curiosity, is anyone still around from circa 1996 (except for Zarf,
interactive fiction anchor extrodinaire)?


Russ Bryan

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Jun 2, 2001, 3:31:43 PM6/2/01
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From: "Russ Bryan" <a@b.c>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 3:14 PM
Subject: I've missed this place

> Then, just for the hell of it, I checked out ftp.gmd.de
> and discovered that, miracle of miracles, the fourth edition of the Inform
> Designer's Manual has been released (my eternal thanks to Graham Nelson
for
> all the vaporware he has inspired me to write).

Quick aside: this was not meant to knock Mr. Nelson in any way, shape, or
form. I had thought the whole Cascade Publishing thing had really hurt and
didn't expect him to bother with us any more, and rightly so. I only
mentioned it because its publication has further inspired me to return to
the community.


Joe Mason

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Jun 3, 2001, 3:52:07 AM6/3/01
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In article <bWaS6.20134$zl5.5...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,

Russ Bryan <a@b.c> wrote:
>Since this would seem to be the only nook / cranny on the internet that I
>have had any impact on whatsoever, I guess I'll start hanging out here
>again. Might even enter the competition this year (vaporware announcement
>#33 and counting).

So, Sphere's not coming out this year then?

>Out of curiosity, is anyone still around from circa 1996 (except for Zarf,
>interactive fiction anchor extrodinaire)?

Hi, Russ!

Joe

Branko Collin

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Jun 3, 2001, 10:23:45 AM6/3/01
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On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 19:14:15 GMT, "Russ Bryan" <a@b.c> wrote:

>Out of curiosity, is anyone still around from circa 1996 (except for Zarf,
>interactive fiction anchor extrodinaire)?

Lots of us. (You left in 1996? Imposterous! I cannot have been reading
this ng for so long.)

--
branko collin
col...@xs4all.nl

John Menichelli

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Jun 3, 2001, 4:08:39 PM6/3/01
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Still here - still lurking... :)

John Menichelli

Russ Bryan

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Jun 3, 2001, 7:09:47 PM6/3/01
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"Joe Mason" <jcm...@student.math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message
news:9fcqb7$hh3$1...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca...

> So, Sphere's not coming out this year then?

lol Joe. Actually wasn't this year supposed to be the third / fourth
installment of Sphere?

I laugh, but that concept's not dead. It's just not going to be a text
adventure.


Giles Boutel

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Jun 4, 2001, 8:29:45 AM6/4/01
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"Russ Bryan" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:bWaS6.20134$zl5.5...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...

> Out of curiosity, is anyone still around from circa 1996 (except for Zarf,
> interactive fiction anchor extrodinaire)?
>
I'm not.

(Damn, what a giveaway)

-Giles


Stephen Granade

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Jun 4, 2001, 5:20:09 PM6/4/01
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"Russ Bryan" <a@b.c> writes:

> Out of curiosity, is anyone still around from circa 1996 (except for Zarf,
> interactive fiction anchor extrodinaire)?

What, and would remember your .sig file proudly trumpeting the release
date for Sphere? Or the discussion preceeding and then surrounding +=3?

There are quite a few of us still around.

Stephen

--
Stephen Granade | Interested in adventure games?
sgra...@phy.duke.edu | Visit About Interactive Fiction
Duke University, Physics Dept | http://interactfiction.about.com

Russ Bryan

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Jun 4, 2001, 8:14:58 PM6/4/01
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"Stephen Granade" <sgra...@phy.duke.edu> wrote in message
news:jdpuck2...@login2.phy.duke.edu...

> What, and would remember your .sig file proudly trumpeting the release
> date for Sphere? Or the discussion preceeding and then surrounding +=3?

Man talk about your lukewarm welcomes! Stephen is the second person whose
"how do you do" included Sphere's failure to coalesce. There is, in fact, a
story behind my failure to complete Sphere and my sudden disappearance from
the interactive fiction scene. It just happens to be pretty boring.

Ah, +=3. Probably my second-favorite attempt at troublemaking. It's nice
to be a catalyst.


Stephen Granade

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Jun 4, 2001, 8:30:22 PM6/4/01
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"Russ Bryan" <a@b.c> writes:

> "Stephen Granade" <sgra...@phy.duke.edu> wrote in message
> news:jdpuck2...@login2.phy.duke.edu...
>
> > What, and would remember your .sig file proudly trumpeting the release
> > date for Sphere? Or the discussion preceeding and then surrounding +=3?
>
> Man talk about your lukewarm welcomes! Stephen is the second person whose
> "how do you do" included Sphere's failure to coalesce. There is, in fact, a
> story behind my failure to complete Sphere and my sudden disappearance from
> the interactive fiction scene. It just happens to be pretty boring.

I mentioned it merely because it stuck in my mind, to be honest. I'm
glad to see you back, whether as TEAddition or Russ Bryan.

Jake Wildstrom

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Jun 4, 2001, 9:29:27 PM6/4/01
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In article <bWaS6.20134$zl5.5...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,
Russ Bryan <a@b.c> wrote:
>Out of curiosity, is anyone still around from circa 1996 (except for Zarf,
>interactive fiction anchor extrodinaire)?

Yup. I was a lurker then and still am.

Welcome to the apocalyptic future of r*if. A future strewn with plot
devices, literary strength, linearity, and puzzle-free action. It is
r*if after the great terror of the late '90s... after PHOTOPIA!

BTW, my occasional slagging of Photopia isn't meant to insult Adam
Cadre or anyone else who has written a work conforming to the above
characteristics. It's just that Photopia certainly changed the way we
design and play IF, and I'm not entirely certain all the changes are
for the best. Personal viewpoint, I suppose.

+--First Church of Briantology--Order of the Holy Quaternion--+
| A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into |
| theorems. -Paul Erdos |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jake Wildstrom |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

Russ Bryan

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Jun 4, 2001, 10:26:25 PM6/4/01
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"Jake Wildstrom" <wil...@mit.edu> wrote in message
news:3b1c35f7$0$1912$b45e...@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...

> Welcome to the apocalyptic future of r*if. A future strewn with plot
> devices, literary strength, linearity, and puzzle-free action. It is
> r*if after the great terror of the late '90s... after PHOTOPIA!


Yeah I had noticed from some of the topics that a transformation seems to
have taken place. I haven't played any of the games... excuse me... I
haven't experienced any of the interactive textual art that follows this
formula. Has the interest in putting the art into RAIF resulted in a
transformation of the genre from text adventure to glorified hypertext? I
would hate to think so. I have never believed that interactive fiction
should be an exercise in reading.

If someone would care to provide a short list of interactive works that I
should explore to learn what is in vogue, I would appreciate it. I just
hope the community hasn't chosen to conform to non-conformism. If I wanted
to experience that, there are plenty of goths at the local high school I
could hang out with instead.


Joe Mason

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Jun 5, 2001, 3:12:11 AM6/5/01
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In article <6wVS6.21766$zl5.6...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,

Russ Bryan <a@b.c> wrote:
>
>Ah, +=3. Probably my second-favorite attempt at troublemaking. It's nice
>to be a catalyst.

You did +=3? Cool. I thought that was DMB. (Or was it a collaboration?)

Joe

Magnus Olsson

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Jun 5, 2001, 8:40:12 AM6/5/01
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In article <bWaS6.20134$zl5.5...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,

Russ Bryan <a@b.c> wrote:
>Out of curiosity, is anyone still around from circa 1996 (except for Zarf,
>interactive fiction anchor extrodinaire)?

I'm still here.

And the Cardinal's absence has been notable.

--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se, m...@pobox.com)
------ http://www.pobox.com/~mol ------

Stephen Granade

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Jun 5, 2001, 9:24:57 AM6/5/01
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jcm...@student.math.uwaterloo.ca (Joe Mason) writes:

Short version: Dave and Russ (and eventually many other people) had a
big long discussion over what made puzzles fair or not. Dave and Russ
argued rather violently about arbitrariness and logic in puzzles. It
culminated in Dave and Carl de Marcken writing +=3 in an attempt to
demonstrate a puzzle they felt was perfectly logical yet horribly
unfair.

So Russ didn't write +=3, but he certainly was in the line of
causation on this one.

Paul O'Brian

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Jun 5, 2001, 12:44:26 PM6/5/01
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On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, Russ Bryan wrote:

> Out of curiosity, is anyone still around from circa 1996 (except for Zarf,
> interactive fiction anchor extrodinaire)?

Hiya.

Of course, I was pretty lurky in '96, but I was there.

--
Paul O'Brian obr...@colorado.edu http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~obrian
2-4-6-8, what would I appreciate? Reviews of interactive fiction games!
The deadline for issue #25 of SPAG is June 10, so b-e aggressive!


Russ Bryan

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Jun 5, 2001, 1:25:21 PM6/5/01
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"Stephen Granade" <sgra...@phy.duke.edu> wrote in message
news:jd4rtvq...@login2.phy.duke.edu...

> Short version: Dave and Russ (and eventually many other people) had a
> big long discussion over what made puzzles fair or not. Dave and Russ
> argued rather violently about arbitrariness and logic in puzzles. It
> culminated in Dave and Carl de Marcken writing +=3 in an attempt to
> demonstrate a puzzle they felt was perfectly logical yet horribly
> unfair.

Not to reopen old wounds, but I still think +=3 failed. If I remember
correctly (and I may be dead wrong), "look self" did not reveal any of the
information that was required by the puzzle's solution. In fact the
puzzle's solution further assumed a great deal about the player's sex and
choice of clothing.

Whatever, though. Dave and Carl were satisfied, and in the end I think that
was the point of the exercise.


Adam Cadre

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Jun 5, 2001, 1:32:00 PM6/5/01
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Russ Bryan wrote:
>If someone would care to provide a short list of interactive works that I
>should explore to learn what is in vogue, I would appreciate it.

I'm not sure how valuable this is going to be given that the rest of your
post indicates that you'd be going in hostile -- nor am I sure that "in
vogue" would be the phrase that I'd choose to describe this branch of
IF... but whatever. Here are some titles to get you started.

Photopia has already been mentioned. That's by me.
ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/zcode/photopia.z5

Galatea by Emily Short is a must.
ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/zcode/Galatea.z8

Then you've got Shade by Andrew Plotkin.
ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/zcode/shade.z5

At the extreme of puzzlelessness among high-quality works is Stephen
Bond's Rameses.
ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/zcode/rameses.z5

I'll stop there -- with this batch you've got a nice selection and yet
should be able to cover them all in a single evening. Enjoy.

-----
Adam Cadre, Brooklyn, NY
web site: http://adamcadre.ac
novel: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060195584/adamcadreac

Aris Katsaris

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Jun 5, 2001, 3:18:48 PM6/5/01
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Adam Cadre <gri...@cascadia.drizzle.com> wrote in message
news:9fj52g$c98$1...@cascadia.drizzle.com...

> Russ Bryan wrote:
> >If someone would care to provide a short list of interactive works that I
> >should explore to learn what is in vogue, I would appreciate it.
>
> Photopia has already been mentioned. That's by me. [snip]
> Galatea by Emily Short is a must. [snip]
> Then you've got Shade by Andrew Plotkin. [snip]

> At the extreme of puzzlelessness among high-quality works is Stephen
> Bond's Rameses. [snip]


Besides those, I'd also recommend "Metamorphoses" by Emily Short
ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/zcode/metamorp.z5

and the more 'experimental':

Shrapnel by Adam Cadre
ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/zcode/shrapnel.z5

and Failsafe by Jon Ingold
ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/zcode/FailSafe.z5


Aris Katsaris

dgc

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Jun 5, 2001, 5:58:12 PM6/5/01
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Russ Bryan wrote:

> "Jake Wildstrom" <wil...@mit.edu> wrote in message
> news:3b1c35f7$0$1912$b45e...@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...
>
> > Welcome to the apocalyptic future of r*if. A future strewn with plot
> > devices, literary strength, linearity, and puzzle-free action. It is
> > r*if after the great terror of the late '90s... after PHOTOPIA!
>
> Yeah I had noticed from some of the topics that a transformation seems to
> have taken place. I haven't played any of the games... excuse me... I
> haven't experienced any of the interactive textual art that follows this
> formula. Has the interest in putting the art into RAIF resulted in a
> transformation of the genre from text adventure to glorified hypertext? I
> would hate to think so. I have never believed that interactive fiction
> should be an exercise in reading.

Where is the line that separates a linear hypertext story and a very
descriptive and fully immersive, but highly interactive, piece of IF? Does one
have to drop things like plot devices and literary strength in order to achieve
what can be considered to be a good work of IF?

Magnus Olsson

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Jun 5, 2001, 5:07:24 PM6/5/01
to
In article <3B1D55F4...@sightnsound.net>,

dgc <d...@sightnsound.net> wrote:
>Russ Bryan wrote:
>
>> "Jake Wildstrom" <wil...@mit.edu> wrote in message
>> news:3b1c35f7$0$1912$b45e...@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...
>>
>> > Welcome to the apocalyptic future of r*if. A future strewn with plot
>> > devices, literary strength, linearity, and puzzle-free action. It is
>> > r*if after the great terror of the late '90s... after PHOTOPIA!

I can't help but wondering who deposited bodily excretions in this
man's processed wheat.

>> Yeah I had noticed from some of the topics that a transformation seems to
>> have taken place. I haven't played any of the games... excuse me... I
>> haven't experienced any of the interactive textual art that follows this
>> formula. Has the interest in putting the art into RAIF resulted in a
>> transformation of the genre from text adventure to glorified hypertext?

In one word: no.

There have been a few attempts in the direction of non-interactivity,
which in general haven't been very well received. But they're not
really "glorified hypertext" whatever that is; rather just glorified
text.

>Where is the line that separates a linear hypertext story and a very
>descriptive and fully immersive, but highly interactive, piece of IF?

I think the key word is "highly interactive". It is hard to make
hypertext - or, for that matter, a CYOA story - highly interactive.

Hmm. I realize that I might just have put _Photopia_ in the hypertext
pigeonhole, where I don't think it belongs. Well, perhaps the point is
that _Photopia_ at least gives the illusion of being "highly
interactive". As does _Rameses_. And I don't think either of those
works would have worked very well if they had been any longer.

And puzzlelessnes - well, "puzzleless IF" doesn't have to mean
"glorified hypertext". I think it's hard to write IF without *any*
kind of puzzles. What's called "puzzleless" is perhaps better
described as IF with very easy puzzles, or very unobtrusive puzzles,
or perhaps just understated puzzles.

>Does one
>have to drop things like plot devices and literary strength in order to achieve
>what can be considered to be a good work of IF?

Surely that depends on whose opinion you're after.

Brad O'Donnell

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Jun 5, 2001, 9:39:02 PM6/5/01
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Russ Bryan wrote:

> Out of curiosity, is anyone still around from circa 1996?

Yep, still here. IF is possibly more exciting than ever.

--
Brad O'Donnell

Sean T Barrett

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Jun 5, 2001, 9:58:58 PM6/5/01
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(Crossposting from r.a.i-f, with followups set to r.g.i-f.)

Aris Katsaris <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>Adam Cadre <gri...@cascadia.drizzle.com> wrote in message

>> Russ Bryan wrote:
>> >If someone would care to provide a short list of interactive works that I
>> >should explore to learn what is in vogue, I would appreciate it.
>>
>> Photopia has already been mentioned. That's by me. [snip]
>> Galatea by Emily Short is a must. [snip]
>> Then you've got Shade by Andrew Plotkin. [snip]
>> At the extreme of puzzlelessness among high-quality works is Stephen
>> Bond's Rameses. [snip]
>
>Besides those, I'd also recommend "Metamorphoses" by Emily Short

>and the more 'experimental':
>Shrapnel by Adam Cadre and Failsafe by Jon Ingold

For a while I've wanted to make a list of the games that sort of
show where the current boundaries of IF are--that is, games that
sort of push at the fringes of the rules of the medium, and are
also generally accepted as "good" works. The above offers enough
of a start for me to throw one together off the top of my head:

Photopia
Rameses (puzzlelessness; the interaction of player and player character)
FailSafe (the interaction of player and player character)
Galatea ("traditional" NPC conversation taken to the limit)
Aisle (the one-turn game; the nature of replaying, of 'ending')

I'd also consider "For a Change", for the degree to which the world
can make sense without making sense and still work as a game; I don't
really feel that tentative about including it but I feel tentative
about explaining why I think it goes on such a list.

I'm sure there are others, but I can't come up with more offhand.

Andrew Plotkin

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Jun 5, 2001, 11:37:27 PM6/5/01
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dgc <d...@sightnsound.net> wrote:
> Russ Bryan wrote:

>> Has the interest in putting the art into RAIF resulted in a
>> transformation of the genre from text adventure to glorified
>> hypertext?

Let me join with others in saying "Heck no."

> Where is the line that separates a linear hypertext story and a very
> descriptive and fully immersive, but highly interactive, piece of
> IF?

Well, that separation would be the interactivity, wouldn't it?

But we don't have a good definition of "interactivity" yet. Not one
that encompasses the senses that I, um, sense.

(Actually, I'm not sure why you use the word "linear" there. In my
rough definitions, a perfectly linear hypertext is one with no hyper
at all -- in other words, simply a text. A work begins to become
hypertext as it departs from linearity, by giving you choices in the
order of text that is presented to you.)

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Gore won the undervotes:
http://www.gopbi.com/partners/pbpost/news/election2000_pbgore.html

Sam Kabo Ashwell

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Jun 6, 2001, 1:35:21 PM6/6/01
to
Russ Bryan wrote:

>...I have never believed that interactive fiction


> should be an exercise in reading.

Hmm. Well, what should it be about, then? I sure as hell don't think it
should be an exercise in logic puzzles and .
Much of the stuff around is text-dense, but I consider that that's a good
thing; if you complain about having to read too much, why bother with the
'fiction' bit?
I'd strongly disagree that the new stuff is non-interactive; two of the
biggest New Things in IF have involved a lot of strides in alternative
endings, (see Aisle, among a host of others), thematic nuances in terms of
order of play (a piece may take on a completely different character in terms
of theme and mood as a result of seemingly trivial actions), and
conversation topics. (See various articles by Emily Short).
SKA

P.S. Even in the cases of IF becoming merely linear stories with extra bits
tacked on and an illusion of control, I wouldn't diss it. It's just another
media; I don't think it's possible or desirable for anybody to dictate 'this
is how this medium should be'. It's an organic process. That, and the
writing of the people in this community is *well* above the average standard
of Internet fiction groups.

Carl Muckenhoupt

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Jun 7, 2001, 2:07:20 AM6/7/01
to
In article <lrXS6.21917$zl5.6...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, a@b.c
says...

>
> Yeah I had noticed from some of the topics that a transformation seems to
> have taken place. I haven't played any of the games... excuse me... I
> haven't experienced any of the interactive textual art that follows this
> formula. Has the interest in putting the art into RAIF resulted in a
> transformation of the genre from text adventure to glorified hypertext? I
> would hate to think so. I have never believed that interactive fiction
> should be an exercise in reading.

Rest assured, new full-scale puzzle-based adventure games are still being
released, and probably at a greater rate than they were during the Golden
Age of Infocom. But the artsy stuff tends to engender more discussion.
For example, I think the longest thread after last year's comp was on the
topic of whether or not "Rameses" should be considered "interactive" or
not. No one asks that kind of question about "Augmented Fourth" or "The
Mulldoon Legacy".

dgc

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Jun 8, 2001, 12:18:32 PM6/8/01
to
Andrew Plotkin wrote:

> > Where is the line that separates a linear hypertext story and a very
> > descriptive and fully immersive, but highly interactive, piece of
> > IF?
>
> Well, that separation would be the interactivity, wouldn't it?
>
> But we don't have a good definition of "interactivity" yet. Not one
> that encompasses the senses that I, um, sense.
>
> (Actually, I'm not sure why you use the word "linear" there. In my
> rough definitions, a perfectly linear hypertext is one with no hyper
> at all -- in other words, simply a text. A work begins to become
> hypertext as it departs from linearity, by giving you choices in the
> order of text that is presented to you.)
>
> --Z

I used the word "hyperytext" because that was the term used in the previous post.
I took it to be defined by the author of that post as a work which is linear by
nature. So, my question was really, if linear is not good and overinteractivity is
not good on the other end of the spectrum, then where is the middle ground between
the two that can be considered good? How much interactivity is too much? Does a
player want to be able to examine everything within the fictitious game world? On
the other extreme, at what point does a work become too linear? At what point do
you feel that a work of IF is leading the player around too much? I fully realize
that there are no hard set answers here and that each person would have his own
interpretations, but I'm interested in seeing various definitions to get a better
idea. I probably should not have posted under this thread, but I saw the comments
which prompted the question.

Aris Katsaris

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Jun 8, 2001, 2:45:41 PM6/8/01
to

dgc <d...@sightnsound.net> wrote in message
news:3B20FAD7...@sightnsound.net...

>
> I used the word "hyperytext" because that was the term used in the
previous post.
> I took it to be defined by the author of that post as a work which is
linear by
> nature. So, my question was really, if linear is not good and
overinteractivity is
> not good on the other end of the spectrum, then where is the middle ground
between
> the two that can be considered good?

I feel that's pretty much like saying "What's the middle ground between red
and
blue which will create a masterpiece painting?"

Aris Katsaris


Kathleen M. Fischer

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Jun 8, 2001, 2:52:18 PM6/8/01
to
(reposting as the MailAndNews claims it didn't make it out. If it did,
apologies for the duplication)

>===== Original Message From dgc <d...@sightnsound.net> =====


>my question was really, if linear is not good and overinteractivity is
>not good on the other end of the spectrum, then where is the middle ground

>between the two that can be considered good? How much interactivity is too
>much?

I can't recall ever seeing anyone seriously complain about too much GOOD
interactivity. People will complain about needlessly fiddly tasks
(*requiring*
the same 6 tedious steps to open each and every one of the forty doors in a
game.) However, IMHO, being able to interact with the game world is always a
plus.

There is the slight problem of red-herrings... if you include a world of
interactivity, how does the player know what's there for mimesis and what's
there to progress the game? But I consider that more of a plot/puzzle
problem,
not an interactivity problem. If the player is forced to look under ever
tree,
shrub, and tuft of grass in the garden to find the key to the house, the
problem is with the puzzle, and NOT that you can actually look under every
tree, shrub, and tuft of grass.

>Does a player want to be able to examine everything within the fictitious
game
>world?

I don't want to *have* to examine everything, but I want everything I do
examine to seem real to me. :) Nothing is more jaring than a lovely bit
of
prose describing the surf, sand, and sea and then to see:

>X SURF
You don't see that here.
>X SAND
You don't see that here.
>X SEA
You don't see that here.

>On the other extreme, at what point does a work become too linear?

At the point where I no longer feel that I'm in control, the point where I'm
slashing at the game with a machete trying to locate the one and only path
the
author will let me to follow.

Personally, I don't think linearity (as in: "The game was on rails") is a
sin,
so long as I don't notice it when I play the game the first time through. If
I
can't tell the game was linear until replaying, then the game was NOT
linear.
Of course, I'm fairly certain that I don't speak for all, or quite probably
even the majority of players on that one. :)

>At what point do you feel that a work of IF is leading the player around too
>much?

If I knew the answer to that one, Masquerade might have finished higher. :)

Kathleen

-- Masquerade (Comp2000, nominated for Best Story (XYZZY's))
-- ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/zcode/Mask.z5
-- The Cove - Best of Landscape, Interactive Fiction Art Show 2000
-- ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/zcode/Cove.z5
-- Excuse me while I dance a little jig of despair

Russ Bryan

unread,
Jun 9, 2001, 10:59:49 AM6/9/01
to

"Adam Cadre" <gri...@cascadia.drizzle.com> wrote in message
news:9fj52g$c98$1...@cascadia.drizzle.com...

> I'm not sure how valuable this is going to be given that the rest of your
> post indicates that you'd be going in hostile

Adam, you were around five years ago. When did I ever broach a
controversial topic without trying to pump up its volume? I certainly won't
be going in hostile, but I'm not ashamed to say I'll be going in skeptical.

For me, the joy of interactive fiction has always been that moment at 2am
where I wake up and shout, "That's it! That's gotta be it!" as an answer to
a particularly sticky puzzle comes to mind. I can't be sure that I won't
enjoy games where all the doors are always open. When I try to imagine the
experience, I can't help but envision a textual museum or, worse, a Choose
Your Own Adventure book.

Thanks for the list. Rest assured I will maintain an open mind until I have
finished every work that you've listed. After that, expect opinions.


Stark

unread,
Jun 12, 2001, 4:52:09 PM6/12/01
to
In article <bWaS6.20134$zl5.5...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Russ Bryan"
<a@b.c> wrote:

> Out of curiosity, is anyone still around from circa 1996 (except for
> Zarf, interactive fiction anchor extrodinaire)?

Hi!

Lurker since '95. Hoping to finish a game real soon now. ;-)

Stark

Brian C. Lane

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Jun 13, 2001, 1:29:33 AM6/13/01
to
"Stark" <m...@tardis.remove_this_rubbish.ed.ac.uk> writes:

Sometime lurker, perpetual developer. Mostly active in the "When the hell
can we actually play Avalon" days <G>. I've recently installed Inform and
am working on learning enough to actually finish writing a game. Hehe...

Brian

--
Brian C. Lane - Linux Programmer/Consultant/Writer www.brianlane.com
www.nexuscomputing.com
Liberty & Privacy 'zine Editor www.libertynews.org
============================================================================
It will be of little avail to the people, that the laws are made by
men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot
be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be
repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such
incessant changes that no man, who knows what the law is to-day, can
guess what it will be to-morrow. Law is defined to be a rule of
action; but how can that be a rule, which is little known, and less
fixed?
-- James Madison, Federalist Papers 62

Neil K.

unread,
Jun 8, 2001, 3:20:36 AM6/8/01
to
jcm...@student.math.uwaterloo.ca (Joe Mason) wrote:

> So, Sphere's not coming out this year then?

Not until HamsterWorld is released.

- Neil K.

Mark J. Tilford

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 1:58:10 PM6/20/01
to
On Sun, 3 Jun 2001 13:08:39 -0700, John Menichelli <meni...@lvcm.com> wrote:
>Still here - still lurking... :)
>
>John Menichelli
>

I've also been lurking around since them, but I think I'm the better
lurker; I recognize your name, and I doubt you'd recognize mine! Ha!


--
------------------------
Mark Jeffrey Tilford
til...@ugcs.caltech.edu

Jake Wildstrom

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 2:08:47 PM6/20/01
to
In article <slrn9j1omb...@ralph.caltech.edu>,

Mark J. Tilford <til...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>I've also been lurking around since them, but I think I'm the better
>lurker; I recognize your name, and I doubt you'd recognize mine! Ha!

Well, I recognize your name, anyways. RHITYSP '94, IIRC. And in '96 or
thereabouts I spotted you here, too.

I am not a stalker. <g>

David Glasser

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Jun 21, 2001, 6:48:37 PM6/21/01
to
Mark J. Tilford <til...@ralph.caltech.edu> wrote:

> I've also been lurking around since them, but I think I'm the better
> lurker; I recognize your name, and I doubt you'd recognize mine! Ha!

I recognized your name showing up on slowwave recently.

(And I was given the link by the other guy on the page, actually.)

--
David Glasser
ne...@davidglasser.net http://www.davidglasser.net/

Mark J. Tilford

unread,
Jun 22, 2001, 1:46:22 PM6/22/01
to

Aiiyaaah! But you're the guy who did VirtuaTech, right, so we're even.
Except you recognized me from a non-if topic; that puts me ahead. Whew.
And that's not even the first time I was on Slow Wave; I was the first
dream in 2000. Unfortunately, he redid his links a few months later, and
now The Rotating Dalmation is late January.

Mark J. Tilford

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Jun 22, 2001, 1:46:52 PM6/22/01
to

Yeah, but I recognize your name too. So we're even.

J Holder

unread,
Jun 27, 2001, 10:48:19 PM6/27/01
to
Only sort of. Real life is keeping me so busy I don't do much with IF
anymore.
(I've been reading and posting since ~1994)

--
John Holder (j-ho...@home.com) http://members.home.net/j-holder/
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death and sweet as love.
-Turkish proverb

"Giles Boutel" <gbo...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:9ffutj$3007$1...@raewyn.paradise.net.nz...
>
> "Russ Bryan" <a@b.c> wrote in message
> news:bWaS6.20134$zl5.5...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...


> > Out of curiosity, is anyone still around from circa 1996 (except for
Zarf,
> > interactive fiction anchor extrodinaire)?
> >

> I'm not.
>
> (Damn, what a giveaway)
>
> -Giles
>
>


john...@nospamearthlink.net

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Jun 27, 2001, 11:53:10 PM6/27/01
to
Annoy.z5.....

gotta try that..


On 5 Jun 2001 10:32:00 -0700, gri...@cascadia.drizzle.com (Adam Cadre)
wrote:

john...@nospamearthlink.net

unread,
Jun 27, 2001, 11:55:24 PM6/27/01
to
Linear Adventure (a joke game not worth programming)

After years of searching... A disovery!

You go down the steps and find some treasures, you romp around and
kill some monsters. Your battery is running low but luckily you have
brought extra batteries. A few monsters come at you but you kill them
easily and eat some food because you are hungry. With all the
treasures packed away you make your way out and see the sun.

**** you have won! ****

What do you want to do now?
>

On 6 Jun 2001 03:37:27 GMT, Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com>
wrote:

john...@nospamearthlink.net

unread,
Jun 28, 2001, 12:02:31 AM6/28/01
to
For me it's always been simple....

I like the way an IF or Text Adventure (call 'em what you will) has
all the merits of a story and novel, yet also rewards thinking skills
and puzzle solving.

You can thing back through your progress as a story as well as the
plot that the author may have included in "cut scenes".

When I think back on Planetfall I remember the story as "I landed at
this place and wandered around forever till I realized my card was
demagnatized!".

Then other games are like "reincarnations" of the same character in
other lives (or dimentions).

I liked Photopia (or as I call it PhotoTOpia) because it gave me a
sense of place, scene, and movement. I could forgive


*** possible spoiler *****


that the puzzles were as simple as finding a pod, planting a seed, or
typing "up" to fly out of a maze because it gave me such a "vision" of
a place. It may be considered "almost linear" by some because of the
quick movements in story, but it didn't feel that way to me... and
that's what really matters. I think a game with 100 rooms that's only
a romp to find a key and a door fairly linear in progress, even if it
isn't in execution.

I think what I liked best were games (and yes I love to call them
games) where puzzles and progress where based more on 'actions' than
with simple combinations of objects. Things that took real leaps of
imagination to figure out without being too terribly "+=3" :-)

Above all I'd really like to see what people new to IF would think of
the old and the new. As I recall one teacher said his students really
loved "Sins agains Mimesis" (excuse the spelling) evening though this
group labeled it as something that had so many in-jokes that it would
not be enjoyable to people outside the familiarity of RAIF.

So when's the last time someone here "introduced" someone new to IF?

Send out links to the Zplet!!! EVangelize! Let IF (or text
adventures) live forever!! **** thunder rolls *****
MUHAHAHAHAHA..

*ahem.

Humbly,
John Escobedo

Adam Thornton

unread,
Jun 28, 2001, 10:56:05 AM6/28/01
to
In article <3b3a8d99...@news.earthlink.net>,

<john...@NOSPAMearthlink.net> wrote:
>Linear Adventure (a joke game not worth programming)
>
>After years of searching... A disovery!
>
>You go down the steps and find some treasures, you romp around and
>kill some monsters. Your battery is running low but luckily you have
>brought extra batteries. A few monsters come at you but you kill them
>easily and eat some food because you are hungry. With all the
>treasures packed away you make your way out and see the sun.
>
>**** you have won! ****
>
>What do you want to do now?
>>

LINEAR ADVENTURE
an Interactive Abbotesque

Line

This is a piece of the Great Line, much like any other.

Bob is ahead of you. Mary is behind.

> X ME

As linear as ever.

> FORWARD

Line

This is a piece of the Great Line, much like any other.

Bob is here. Mary is far behind.

> BOB, HI

"Hey, how's it going, eh?"

> KISS BOB

I don't suppose Bob would care for that.

> BACK

Line

Bob is ahead of you. Mary is behind

> BACK

Line

This is a piece of the Great Line, much like any other.

Mary is here. Bob is far ahead.

> KISS MARY

I don't suppose Mary would care for that.

> ASK MARY ABOUT MARY

"I'm a pretty one-dimensional character, don't you think?"

> QUIT

John Colagioia

unread,
Jun 30, 2001, 7:39:01 AM6/30/01
to
john...@NOSPAMearthlink.net wrote:

> Linear Adventure (a joke game not worth programming)
> After years of searching... A disovery!
> You go down the steps and find some treasures, you romp around and
> kill some monsters. Your battery is running low but luckily you have
> brought extra batteries. A few monsters come at you but you kill them
> easily and eat some food because you are hungry. With all the
> treasures packed away you make your way out and see the sun.
> **** you have won! ****
> What do you want to do now?
> >

Heh...Where was this for PrologueComp...!? It certainly establishes the
situation...


Michael Kinyon

unread,
Jun 30, 2001, 4:47:14 PM6/30/01
to
john...@NOSPAMearthlink.net wrote:
> Linear Adventure (a joke game not worth programming)
>
> After years of searching... A disovery!
>
> You go down the steps and find some treasures, you romp around and
> kill some monsters. Your battery is running low but luckily you
> have brought extra batteries. A few monsters come at you but you
> kill them easily and eat some food because you are hungry. With
> all the treasures packed away you make your way out and see the
> sun.
>
> **** you have won! ****
>
> What do you want to do now?


> KISS RICHARD BASEHART

--
Michael K. Kinyon | email: mki...@iusb.edu
Dept of Mathematical Sciences | http://www.iusb.edu/~mkinyon
Indiana University South Bend | phone: 219-237-4240
South Bend, IN 46634 USA | fax: 219-237-6589

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