[TravelComp] This is the E[nd]

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Sasha

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Aug 12, 2001, 11:01:31 AM8/12/01
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TravelComp is over; http://www.dreamwater.org/sasha/travel.html is the
place to be. When leaving, don't forget to turn off the light.

Ta, Sasha

http://www.dreamwater.org/sasha/index.html (for those who are
interested, I have finally uploaded some of my Political Science
essays).

Greg Ewing

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Aug 13, 2001, 2:41:49 AM8/13/01
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Sasha wrote:
>
> TravelComp is over; http://www.dreamwater.org/sasha/travel.html is the
> place to be. When leaving, don't forget to turn off the light.

Has anyone else looked at this page yet? Does it
look truncated? The last line I see is

Two - see below.

But there isn't any below...

Thanks for the nice things you said about my game,
btw, Sasha. And I really have to take responsibility
for most of the limitations you mentioned. They can
be fixed, even with Alan -- I just didn't have any
time left for polishing or beta testing!

If anyone is interested, I could tidy up some of
the rough patches and make another version of
OAHWNN available somewhere.

And... is there anyone willing to take on the task
of making an English translation of the winning
entry? Sasha's comments got me all fired up and
looking forward to playing it... then the awful
blow...

Or maybe this is the excuse I need to finally get
around to learning Russian?

--
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, University of Canterbury,
Christchurch, New Zealand
To get my email address, please visit my web page:
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg

Sasha

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Aug 13, 2001, 5:13:15 AM8/13/01
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Greg Ewing <gr...@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote in message news:<3B7776AD...@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz>...

> Sasha wrote:
> >
> > TravelComp is over; http://www.dreamwater.org/sasha/travel.html is the
> > place to be. When leaving, don't forget to turn off the light.
>
> Has anyone else looked at this page yet? Does it
> look truncated? The last line I see is
>
> Two - see below.
>
> But there isn't any below...

To begin with, I'm really sorry for misspelling your last name on the
page. I'll fix that right away.

Second, the page isn't really truncated. Perhaps I did not make this
obvious, but what you are referring to is supposed to be a footnote
(1); you should read it after the words "Anna Rostovtseva" - it'll
make more sense then.

> Thanks for the nice things you said about my game,
> btw, Sasha. And I really have to take responsibility
> for most of the limitations you mentioned. They can
> be fixed, even with Alan -- I just didn't have any
> time left for polishing or beta testing!

I'm very glad you took criticism in good strife - after updating the
page, I started to have doubts about whether I had mentioned all the
good things about the game (which I liked a lot; and no, I didn't
mention them all), and whether the list of complaints was too long!

> If anyone is interested, I could tidy up some of
> the rough patches and make another version of
> OAHWNN available somewhere.

Awesome! In fact, you could send me a copy, as well, so I would update
the site.

> And... is there anyone willing to take on the task
> of making an English translation of the winning
> entry? Sasha's comments got me all fired up and
> looking forward to playing it... then the awful
> blow...

Uhhhhhhh... Anna and I discussed that at length; unfortunately, there
are some problems. She is not very proficient in English; I, for my
part, could do it (theoretically), but I am actually _leaving the
country_ on the 16th (which is one of the reasons why I wanted to
conclude the competition before that date). When I arrive, things will
get very hectic - at least for the first month or so. After that -
we'll see. I still have my own game scheduled for the Fall of 2002,
you know :)

Besides, the game would undeniably lose some of its charm if
translated. But then again, it's not that big a problem.

In the last analysis - the prospect looks tempting, and if time
permits, it will be done.

> Or maybe this is the excuse I need to finally get
> around to learning Russian?

You should, regardless of the circumstances :)

Cheers, Sasha

http://www.dreamwater.org/sasha/index.html

Greg Ewing

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Aug 13, 2001, 9:16:03 PM8/13/01
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Sasha wrote:
>
> what you are referring to is supposed to be a footnote
> (1); you should read it after the words "Anna Rostovtseva"

Oh, I see! The 1) looked like it was supposed to be
the first item in a numbered list.

> > If anyone is interested, I could tidy up some of
> > the rough patches and make another version of
> > OAHWNN available somewhere.
>
> Awesome! In fact, you could send me a copy, as well, so I would update
> the site.

Okay. If you or anyone else cares to send me details
of any other bugs they've come across, I'll fix them
while I'm at it.

Lucian P. Smith

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Aug 14, 2001, 10:08:08 AM8/14/01
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In rec.arts.int-fiction Sasha <black_co...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: TravelComp is over; http://www.dreamwater.org/sasha/travel.html is the

: place to be. When leaving, don't forget to turn off the light.

Hmm.

It is customary, when organizing a comp with few entrants, to thank those
that did enter, point people to those games, and exit gracefully.

It is not customary to give the only entry you receive second place. If
you're feeling vindictive, surely you can rant at the rest of us for not
entering, and not take out your hostility on the one person who *did*
enter.

I think you owe Greg Ewing an apology.

-Lucian Smith

Paul O'Brian

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Aug 14, 2001, 10:35:01 AM8/14/01
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On 14 Aug 2001, Lucian P. Smith wrote:

> It is not customary to give the only entry you receive second place.

Eh? I thought there were two entries, but one is huge and in Russian. Or
does that one not really exist? Gullible me, I thought it'd be posted to
the IF archive. And here I just sent Joe an updated New Releases Shelf
with a pointer to that page.

Sasha, what's up?

--
Paul O'Brian obr...@colorado.edu http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~obrian
The twenty-fifth issue of SPAG has arrived, with IF news, reviews, and
a feature interview with Stephen Granade. Check it out at the SPAG website:
http://www.sparkynet.com/spag

Sasha

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Aug 14, 2001, 2:03:44 PM8/14/01
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"Lucian P. Smith" <lps...@rice.edu> wrote in message news:<9lbbc8$cs5$1...@joe.rice.edu>...

> In rec.arts.int-fiction Sasha <black_co...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> : TravelComp is over; http://www.dreamwater.org/sasha/travel.html is the
> : place to be. When leaving, don't forget to turn off the light.
>
> Hmm.
>
> It is customary, when organizing a comp with few entrants, to thank those
> that did enter, point people to those games, and exit gracefully.

Thanking the entrants - my fault. Thank you, Greg. Thank you, Anna.
Belated yet sincere.

As for graceful exits - tastes vary. Most of my acquaintances would
consider my last remark the hight of good taste (modesty, modesty). It
is intended to convey the atmoshpere of a majestic closure - so
majestic, in fact, that the spectators had been rendered speechless,
and have no other way to express their emotions but by turning off the
lights quietly and going home. Centones, and centones again.

But then again, you may not find that perspective all too enticing. My
reply would be predictable, yet logical: organize a competition, and
show us all how to "bee-have."

> It is not customary to give the only entry you receive second place.

Absolutely; and I didn't. There were two entires, one of which I found
more appealing than the other; consequently, the latter entry received
second place, and the former - the first.

> If
> you're feeling vindictive, surely you can rant at the rest of us for not
> entering, and not take out your hostility on the one person who *did*
> enter.

[Stunned silence. Then, goes to the mirror and regards himself,
desperately looking for signs of homicidal malice. Failing to find
any, goes to the sink and drowns himself]

Sasha

Sasha

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Aug 14, 2001, 2:05:19 PM8/14/01
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Paul O'Brian <obr...@ucsu.colorado.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.33.01081...@ucsu.colorado.edu>...

> On 14 Aug 2001, Lucian P. Smith wrote:
>
> > It is not customary to give the only entry you receive second place.
>
> Eh? I thought there were two entries, but one is huge and in Russian. Or
> does that one not really exist? Gullible me, I thought it'd be posted to
> the IF archive. And here I just sent Joe an updated New Releases Shelf
> with a pointer to that page.
>
> Sasha, what's up?

Do you have any sound reasons to accuse me of lying, or is it mere rudeness?

Muffy St. Bernard

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Aug 14, 2001, 2:48:10 PM8/14/01
to

It simply seems odd that the winning entry isn't available to be
played. There's surely a first time for everything, but this may be the
first time that first prize in a public competition goes to an entry
that nobody gets to see but the judge. :)
Since I don't know any Russian, I doubt I could even begin to
appreciate Russian IF. It's nice to suspect that such a thing exists,
and that it's good enough to win a competition (especially if Anna
Rostovtseva is a first-time IF author, and especially, ESPECIALLY if
this is the same Anna Rostovtseva whose Angelfire homepage lists her as
being 13 years old
(http://www.angelfire.com/ok2/jennyrhythm/annar.html)). If this young
lady is the same one who wrote "Suddenly The Trains Departed," then that
is impressive, and it would be nice to know that her entry is available
SOMEWHERE.
How big are the files? I'd be happy to host her piece of IF on my
website (if they're not TOO large)

Muffy.

Ross Presser

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Aug 14, 2001, 2:08:42 PM8/14/01
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"Lucian P. Smith" <lps...@rice.edu> wrote:

> It is not customary to give the only entry you receive second place.

He received two entries; however, one was (a) in Russian and (b) too
large to be easily distributed.

--
Ross Presser * ross_p...@imtek.com
"Back stabbing is a sport best played by those that can't stand face
to face with their opponent." - Danny Taddei

Adam Cadre

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Aug 14, 2001, 3:27:10 PM8/14/01
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Paul O'Brian wrote:
> Eh? I thought there were two entries, but one is huge and in Russian. Or
> does that one not really exist?

Doesn't exist? DOESN'T EXIST? Why, not only does it exist, but it's the
first game to take full advantage of the myriad capabilities of RAIF-POOL!
In fact, the real reason none of us can get a copy isn't that it doesn't
exist, but that the NPCs are so realistic that they've been declared
living creatures by the UN Human Rights Commission, and of course, cloning
humans is illegal.

-----
Adam Cadre, Brooklyn, NY
web site: http://adamcadre.ac
novel: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060195584/adamcadreac

Lucian P. Smith

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Aug 14, 2001, 3:38:53 PM8/14/01
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In rec.arts.int-fiction Sasha <black_co...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: "Lucian P. Smith" <lps...@rice.edu> wrote in message news:<9lbbc8$cs5$1...@joe.rice.edu>...

:> It is not customary to give the only entry you receive second place.

: Absolutely; and I didn't. There were two entires, one of which I found
: more appealing than the other; consequently, the latter entry received
: second place, and the former - the first.

Mmm.

I'm not really interested in debating whether "Suddenly The Trains
Departed" exists. Or even whether the myriad of other games you relegated
to the recycle bin exist. I assume it was a fun story you told yourself
about your competition because you felt bad that you only got one entry.
Believe me, I know how you feel--I got 4 in the one I ran, while Adam's
ChickenComp got like 20, which ran at the same time. I, too, had fun
thinking up possible entries to my comp that would have fulfilled the
vision I had for it. Fine, these things happen. Maybe in some
post-modern way you think that the entries really *do* exist in some
Platonic form. Again, it is not customary for platonic ideals to win
mini-comps, but I suppose trends have to start somewhere.

But to give Greg's entry second place *and* to include a story about
'Boris' being morose about coming in second in a field of two seems
dreadfully unfair, and I read it as being vindictive. If not, well. I
still think you should apologize to Greg, but I shall let the matter drop.

-Lucian

Gunther Schmidl

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Aug 14, 2001, 4:50:29 PM8/14/01
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> He received two entries; however, one was (a) in Russian and (b) too
> large to be easily distributed.

There is no proof whatsoever that a second entry exists, and personally I
rather doubt it for reasons I'm not going to go into here.

-- Gunther


Tom Waddington

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Aug 14, 2001, 6:06:22 PM8/14/01
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Hello Sasha,

>>> It is not customary to give the only entry you receive second
>>> place.

>> Eh? I thought there were two entries, but one is huge and in
>> Russian. Or does that one not really exist? Gullible me, I thought
>> it'd be posted to the IF archive. And here I just sent Joe an
>> updated New Releases Shelf with a pointer to that page.

>> Sasha, what's up?

> Do you have any sound reasons to accuse me of lying, or is it mere
> rudeness?

I won't call you a liar, but you must admit that pouring praise on a
huge, well-written, all-over-wondrous game by an unknown new author,
and then not making it available, is a little reminiscent of those
nineteenth century science fiction stories that describe fantastic
islands but finish `Alas! our ship was wrecked, and only I survive to
tell the tale'.

Be seeing you,
--
Tom Waddington

Paul O'Brian

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Aug 14, 2001, 5:33:00 PM8/14/01
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On 14 Aug 2001, Sasha wrote:

> Do you have any sound reasons to accuse me of lying, or is it mere rudeness?

A few things:

1) Please read more carefully. While there may be someone who has accused
you of lying, I'm not that person. In fact, I was completely credulous
about your story that there were two entries but one was too large to
post. When some doubt was cast on that story, I asked you for
clarification.

2) Please don't get on your high horse about rudeness. Let's have a polite
conversation about what no doubt is an innocent misunderstanding.

3) Please throw some light on the whole matter, and provide the
clarification I was requesting, by explaining how and when the winning
entry in your comp will be made available. Please.

Thank you in advance for your help and cooperation.

Muffy St. Bernard

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Aug 14, 2001, 7:00:13 PM8/14/01
to

Either this will end with a revelation that this great piece of IF
DOES exist...
...or it will end with a characteristic, enigmatic, quote-dropping
"I'm slightly insulted but find all of this immensely amusing" sort of
comment that reveals nothing and hints at a grander sort of philosophy
whose basic premise is stated, but could not be explained or legitimized
because anybody who NEEDS to ask what the heck it all means could
apparently never understand the explanation in the first place. The
upshot of which is, none of us will understand the EXPLICITLY-stated
reasons for why STD was never unveiled, but those of us who are
interested will have our suspicions because we've run across such things
before.
If the first ending occurs, then I think a lot of people will be
pleasantly surprised.
Personally, I wouldn't care much either way, if a real person hadn't
submitted their work to the competition in the first place.

Muffy.

Sam Barlow

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Aug 14, 2001, 7:19:10 PM8/14/01
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black_co...@hotmail.com (Sasha) wrote:

> Paul O'Brian <obr...@ucsu.colorado.edu> wrote:
> > On 14 Aug 2001, Lucian P. Smith wrote:
> >
> > > It is not customary to give the only entry you receive second place.
> >
> > Eh? I thought there were two entries, but one is huge and in Russian. Or
> > does that one not really exist? Gullible me, I thought it'd be posted to
> > the IF archive. And here I just sent Joe an updated New Releases Shelf
> > with a pointer to that page.
> >
> > Sasha, what's up?
>
> Do you have any sound reasons to accuse me of lying, or is it mere rudeness?

I must say, *my* impression upon reading the page was that there _was_
only one entry; the 'winning' entry being a joke along the lines (but
with less substance) of Stanislaw Lem's reviews of fictional books.
The idea that a superb work of IF might appear in a mini-comp _and_ be
written in Russian was fairly funny.

Seeing it as a joke, I didn't read any intended malice into it.

I suggest it would be helpful if you could make it clear whether this
was a joke or not; no one likes a practical joker who doesn't know
when to call it a day and all that.

If it's not a joke, well, I'm impressed. What next, Esperanto IF?

--Sam

--Sam.

Greg Ewing

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Aug 14, 2001, 9:59:23 PM8/14/01
to
Since I prefer to think the best of people unless
given a clear reason otherwise, I'm going to take
Sasha's words at face value, and concentrate on the
technical issues involved in getting the other
entry out to the world.

I don't think the fact that it's in Russian is
reason enough to withhold it. There may well be
other people among us capable of reading Russian,
and if so, why should they be denied it?

So, Sasha, I encourage you to make it available if a
way can be found. How big is it, exactly? If you
don't have enough room to put it on your web
site, perhaps you could upload it to the if-archive
by ftp. Or if you can email it to me, maybe in
several parts, I could upload it for you.

Alandeniro

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Aug 15, 2001, 12:13:48 AM8/15/01
to
Sasha:

If this entry was written in Russian, I'm just curious about the language
issue. are there IF interpreters that can take into account a non-Latin
alphabet in the first place? what language was the game coded in that would
allow, syntactically, for Russian and the Cyrillic alphabet? Forgive my
ignorance, everyone, if I'm missing something blatantly obvious; I'm still
relatively new to IF.

A.

"You thought that you dreamt that you were a man hiding in a garden. Actually
you dreamt that you were a garden containing a hidden man." --Robert Irwin, The
Arabian Nightmare


Passenger Pigeon

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Aug 15, 2001, 12:28:03 AM8/15/01
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In article <9lbu2e$6jr$1...@cascadia.drizzle.com>,
gri...@cascadia.drizzle.com (Adam Cadre) wrote:

> Paul O'Brian wrote:
> > Eh? I thought there were two entries, but one is huge and in Russian.
> > Or
> > does that one not really exist?
>
> Doesn't exist? DOESN'T EXIST? Why, not only does it exist, but it's the
> first game to take full advantage of the myriad capabilities of
> RAIF-POOL!
> In fact, the real reason none of us can get a copy isn't that it doesn't
> exist, but that the NPCs are so realistic that they've been declared
> living creatures by the UN Human Rights Commission, and of course,
> cloning
> humans is illegal.

As a matter of fact, I've played this game (it's truly incredible), and
even wrote an elegant walkthrough; unfortunately, this margin is too
narrow to contain it.

--
William Burke, passenge...@hotmail.com insert coin to continue
Before you presume my rationality, I'm a Theatre major, Music minor.
I don't represent UCSC; it represents me. Go Slugs!
http://www.passengerpigeon.net (not com, not org)

Magnus Olsson

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Aug 15, 2001, 3:31:39 AM8/15/01
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In article <99782544...@lilznntp.liwest.at>,

PLEASE - let's give Sasha the benefit of the doubt, shall we?

It's one thing to read his page and think "this Russian entry sounds
too good to be true," or even to ask - politely, as Paul did - about
it.

It's another thing altogether to flatly accuse Sasha of lying and start
demanding apologies.

This newsgroup has been called one of the frienliest, most polite
places on the net. Let's not change that.

--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se, m...@pobox.com)
------ http://www.pobox.com/~mol ------

Sasha

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Aug 15, 2001, 4:55:59 AM8/15/01
to
Well.

It pleases me, of course, that my humble undertaking has brought so
much attention from the public; I never expected it to. It does not,
however, please me, when people I hardly know mete out their paranoia
on me under the guise of defending the IF community from a vile,
bloodthirsty, lying, entry-forging, impersonating, cheating maniac
that I allegedly am, whose dream is to destroy the IF community as a
whole and its every member in particular. Hence I see no reason to
continue this discussion along such lines. I find it humiliating to
try and justify myself further than I already have; moreover, as
Tolstoy used to say, it is impossible to convince anyone of anything
with words; unfortunately, words are the only resource I possess. I
will limit my participation with the following passage; you, of
course, are at liberty to pursue the issue to whatever limit you may
wish.

I did receive two (valid) entries for the TravelComp, and several
invalid ones (one of them, entitled &#8220;Perchatka,&#8221; written
in Russian Inform, is now available at the TravelComp page &#8211;
http://www.dreamwater.org/sasha/travel.html, bottom of the page;
&#8220;Cat 2 Cat&#8221; is too big, and the others unimpressive). One
of the valid entries was from my (brief) acquaintance, Anna
Rostovtseva (address &#8211; 600021, Vladimir, Russia, Komissarova
St., 4b, Apt. 5; phone number &#8211; (0922) 32-86-50; e-mail &#8211;
moiro...@yandex.ru). As I have discovered later, the entry was not
destined for this competition per se; rather, it was a long-lasting
_commercial_ project. I do not know the reasons that motivated her to
submit it as an entry. She made _no_ commitment to release the entry
to the public; I never asked for one. The fact remains, however, that
shortly before the deadline came, I received a ZIP disc containing the
entry (programmed in Delphi). For reasons previously mentioned, I
enjoyed the game, and awarded it first place.

Now, those who were courteous enough to contact me via e-mail
(unfortunately, a single person) with a request to see the entry,
received the following reply:

&#8220;[&#8230;] Unfortunately, you can only attach files smaller than
a megabyte (I think); the game file is much larger. I could, of
course, send you some (useless) dll&#8217;s, but with the connection
speed of 14 kbps and the necessity to re-connect roughly every 20
minutes, it isn&#8217;t worth it.
Which is worse, the whole affair is slowly but surely getting out of
hand. Anna is now adding more graphics and sound so as to *sell* the
game (which, you must agree, is quite a plausible idea, given the
economical situation here). As a result, she explicitly forbade me to
distribute the game and asked to return the competition entry (which
is on a 100-meg ZIP disc). I haven&#8217;t done that yet, but I guess
I&#8217;ll have to, eventually &#8211; as I mentioned in the post,
I&#8217;m leaving the country, [&#8230;]&#8221;

These are the facts, stated clearly and candidly, in a form that a
child could comprehend. There are two reasons why what you demand is
impossible &#8211; the technical one, and now the legal one, as well.
I fail to see any reason why you may find this deceiving. Needless to
say, none of what is said above may prevent you from continuing to
accuse me of imagining the entire affair and consciously trying to
mislead the public. You might also consider adding charges concerning
the murder of Gorky, Kirov and Trotsky (the absurdity of the situation
does, in fact, remind me of the Soviet-era trials &#8211; like then,
facts are abandoned for the sake of incongruous notions), the sinking
of Kursk (sounds particularly promising) and the crash of the U.S. spy
plane in China (I&#8217;m not sure about that one, but you are welcome
to try). You may even bully Anna with your concepts, once you get past
the English barrier, although I doubt she will be as patient as I am.
One way or the other, it would be nice to know you have enough time
and desire to do so; I, on the other hand, do not.

It saddens me to think that you tend accuse a person entirely
unfamiliar to you of ulterior motives, lacking any kind of rationale
whatsoever (save for, of course, Mr. Smith&#8217;s fervent, although
regrettably erroneous designs), rather than try and accept the
reasoning he tries to provide (although that is certainly far less
exciting than accusing that person of all earthly crimes, isn&#8217;t
it?). As much as I would hate to become the object of your attacks
(for I am entirely innocent and have nothing but good will for the
community and its members), I will accept my fate if I must.

Magnus Olsson

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Aug 15, 2001, 5:40:12 AM8/15/01
to
In article <9lbu2e$6jr$1...@cascadia.drizzle.com>,

Adam Cadre <gri...@cascadia.drizzle.com> wrote:
>Paul O'Brian wrote:
>> Eh? I thought there were two entries, but one is huge and in Russian. Or
>> does that one not really exist?
>
>Doesn't exist? DOESN'T EXIST? Why, not only does it exist, but it's the
>first game to take full advantage of the myriad capabilities of RAIF-POOL!
>In fact, the real reason none of us can get a copy isn't that it doesn't
>exist, but that the NPCs are so realistic that they've been declared
>living creatures by the UN Human Rights Commission, and of course, cloning
>humans is illegal.

Not to speak of the fact that deleting the game file would be considered
murder :-).

Tom Waddington

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Aug 15, 2001, 8:49:36 AM8/15/01
to
Hello Sasha,

> It pleases me, of course, that my humble undertaking has brought so
> much attention from the public; I never expected it to. It does not,
> however, please me, when people I hardly know mete out their
> paranoia on me under the guise of defending the IF community from a
> vile, bloodthirsty, lying, entry-forging, impersonating, cheating
> maniac that I allegedly am, whose dream is to destroy the IF
> community as a whole and its every member in particular.

Whoah, ease up there, Sasha. People were confused, not baying for
blood. Perhaps that confusion was voiced more aggressively than was
either fair or necessary, but given the IF community's history of
hoaxes and vapourware I think it's understandable.

Jonathan Rosebaugh

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Aug 15, 2001, 8:49:35 AM8/15/01
to
On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 07:47:16 -0500, Jonathan Rosebaugh <pong...@sneakemail.com> posted:
>certainly did achieve your intent, you compared your detractors to

Er, I meant "certainly did not achieve".


--
Skip - http://www.plover.net/~skip/
GPG key 0x41963E43 - See http://www.plover.net/~skip/gpg.html
-------------------------------------------------------------
Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith.
-- Paul Tillich, German theologian.

Jonathan Rosebaugh

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Aug 15, 2001, 8:47:16 AM8/15/01
to
Sasha, while I can understand the outrage you claim to feel, let's
step back and look at some facts, shall we?

1) The winning entry, being a work of such quality that it goes above
and beyond anything that anyone *here* has produced, was written by
a previously unknown author.
2) This entry was written in Delphi, a language rather unsuited for IF
programming. Anna would have had to not only write prose of
superior literary quality and program the logic of her game, she
would also have had to write a parser of complexity at least equal
to Inform's, which is no easy task.
3) You have previously been known to, shall we say, confuse the truth
a bit, as in the case of the WalkthroughComp and Emily Short.

Occam's Razor, my friend. Occam's Razor.

Then, people began to doubt the existence of Anna's work. While this
was sometimes done snarkily, you really set yourself up for that with
all the comparing of yourself to famous Russian authors, and your
"delusions of grandeur".

When people began to doubt, you did not offer any sort of proof, you
did not offer to post a screenshot of the game (which could itself
have been faked, i admit, but it would have been much more work). You
resorted to rudeness and name-throwing. Then, in a measure that almost


certainly did achieve your intent, you compared your detractors to

Stalin and yourself to Trotsky. I certainly doubt that Adam and Lucian
are planning to hire assassins to track you down. This measure seems
akin to flamers comparing their targets to Nazis, in the hopes of
bringing emotionalism into the conflict.

Really, I wish I could have expected better of you, Sasha.


On 15 Aug 2001 01:55:59 -0700, Sasha <black_co...@hotmail.com> posted:

--
Skip - http://www.plover.net/~skip/
GPG key 0x41963E43 - See http://www.plover.net/~skip/gpg.html
-------------------------------------------------------------

A heavy crown
Can force the face of any weary king
Toward the ground.
But here and there wise kings
Bid crowns good-bye--
And find without their crowns
They're light enough to fly.
- Calvin Miller, The Divine Symphony

Paul O'Brian

unread,
Aug 15, 2001, 10:22:07 AM8/15/01
to
On 15 Aug 2001, Sasha wrote:

> Which is worse, the whole affair is slowly but surely getting out of
> hand. Anna is now adding more graphics and sound so as to *sell* the
> game (which, you must agree, is quite a plausible idea, given the
> economical situation here). As a result, she explicitly forbade me to
> distribute the game and asked to return the competition entry (which
> is on a 100-meg ZIP disc).

So she entered her game in a competition (and won) without releasing it.
Neat trick. It must have been frustrating for you as the comp organizer
to see a game you thought was so good removed from distribution like
that. I hope it sees the light of day at some point. (Maybe a
well-orchestrated campaign of letters and phone calls to the address and
phone number you so thoughtfully provided to the public at large would do
the trick.) In any case, I think I have the information I need for the
SPAG new releases page now, which is the only reason I waded into the
whole silly affair to begin with. Thank you for your assistance.

ems...@mindspring.com

unread,
Aug 15, 2001, 6:50:15 PM8/15/01
to
pong...@sneakemail.com (Jonathan Rosebaugh) wrote in message news:<k0rdl9...@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>...

> Sasha, while I can understand the outrage you claim to feel, let's
> step back and look at some facts, shall we?
>
> 1) The winning entry, being a work of such quality that it goes above
> and beyond anything that anyone *here* has produced, was written by
> a previously unknown author.
> 2) This entry was written in Delphi, a language rather unsuited for IF
> programming. Anna would have had to not only write prose of
> superior literary quality and program the logic of her game, she
> would also have had to write a parser of complexity at least equal
> to Inform's, which is no easy task.
> 3) You have previously been known to, shall we say, confuse the truth
> a bit, as in the case of the WalkthroughComp and Emily Short.

Oy.

I'd been avoiding this thread, but it seems likely (and justified)
that this last remark will provoke indignation on Sasha's part.

Skip refers (I assume) to Sasha's complaints about his placement in
WalkthroughComp, and his implication that I slighted him out of
resentment because of some conversation we had on ifMUD perhaps a
month or so before said competition. In both these regards he has
misinterpreted me: he did not *win* walkthrough comp by my judgement,
but I did no placement beyond that, so to say that he came in 'fifth
out of six' is incorrect. Likewise, my reaction to the game was
exactly that, a reaction to the game; our earlier conversation was an
intellectual debate that left me with no particular personal feelings
about Mr. Spiridonov other than a sense of his passionate commitment
to ideas -- and the impression that he would have an easier time
spelling his arguments if he used a MUD client rather than telnet.
Not exactly grounds to blackball anyone.

So it is unfortunate that Sasha read my (admittedly fairly brief and
off-hand) remarks about his game into an expression of directed
personal dislike; I intended the entire competition in a light spirit,
and I selected the winners from it on the basis of how much they
amused me, not on their broader intellectual significance. I remain,
admittedly, slightly unsure of what it is exactly that Sasha meant to
communicate in his game -- perhaps because of the bugs that prevented
my seeing all the text, perhaps because his prose translated into
English conveys less than it does in Russian, perhaps because I lack
the intellectual background into which to place it. It is Sasha's
right to regard this as my deficiency rather than his game's, and to
express that view publicly; I could wish that he had not chosen to
imply in the same breath his contempt for the other entrants, since
this is, in my opinion, not only unfair but unsportsmanlike.

But nowhere in that-- which is more a difference of etiquette and
personality and, perhaps, intellectual ground-- is there anything that
would qualify as a *lie*. A misinterpretation, yes; fueled by my
ordering of items on the page, and thus not entirely Sasha's fault.
Moreover, it is possible that I failed to appreciate Sasha's game for
the same reasons that I failed to accept his intellectual arguments
some time earlier: not spite, but a conviction that authorial vision
is not complete unto itself, and that the audience should not be
ignored.

So, Skip, if you mean that he was confused about the truth, then yes,
he was, but that doesn't equate to a deliberate attempt to confuse
others.


Now: I think people on both sides of this have escalated things rather
unpleasantly. There's one rather obvious bit of advice for future
competition organizers, however. I think the presumption here is that
to enter a game in a competition *is* releasing it, and that by
unspoken agreement people consider it only fair to all the
participants if all the entries are made available at the end. Not
only is it not much fun not to be able to see what your competition
was, if you slaved to enter something, but it makes the whole thing
look as though it was run as a private review for the organizer's
personal enjoyment if the resulting crop is not shared with everyone.

I hope I don't sound chiding, because that's not what I meant at all.
For future reference, though, it's probably best to say so clearly at
the beginning if you are going to accept games that are then not going
to be released.

ES

Jonathan Rosebaugh

unread,
Aug 15, 2001, 7:02:52 PM8/15/01
to
On 15 Aug 2001 15:50:15 -0700, ems...@mindspring.com <ems...@mindspring.com> posted:

>So, Skip, if you mean that he was confused about the truth, then yes,
>he was, but that doesn't equate to a deliberate attempt to confuse
>others.

Erm, yes, I did mean to imply that he was confused about the truth,
and also that it is somewhat difficult to convey the truth to others
properly when one is confused about it.

--
Skip - http://www.plover.net/~skip/
GPG key 0x41963E43 - See http://www.plover.net/~skip/gpg.html
-------------------------------------------------------------

A finale is not always the best song, but it is always the last.
- Calvin Miller, The Singer Trilogy

Jaap van der Velde

unread,
Aug 15, 2001, 7:35:29 PM8/15/01
to

On 15 Aug 2001 01:55:59 -0700, black_co...@hotmail.com (Sasha)
wrote:
> [Post on the facts concerning TravelComp]

A post not lacking in clarity, whatever one might think to be able
to read in the tone in which it was set. This must be some feud
which has been running longer and deeper than this thread to
arouse such strong feelings amongst the people involved. I think
Greg Ewing is getting all the support he really needs from the
people on this group and I'm certainly going to read his story
after this thread, so some good has at least come from it.

I'd understand if Sasha's response wouldn't satisfy everyone in on
the thread, but somehow I don't think much can be gained from
further accusations or speculations on the story. If someone really
wants a go at the missing number one story, I guess they can mail
its author at the provided address...

Grtz,
Volk.

Billy Harris

unread,
Aug 16, 2001, 1:52:29 AM8/16/01
to
While I found the travelcomp web page to be {prententious is wrong...
arrogant is wrong...AH} self-indulgent, I do not conclude that Suddenly
The Trains is a fictictious entry. In that vein, I found the initial
post to be excessivly hostile, especially since it didn't explictly say
"I think this entry is a hoax" leaving me quite confused as to the
source of the hostility.

However, with the announcement of "Oh, I must have forgotten to tell
you; it's commercial and so can't be freely distributed. And even
though it won first place it isn't finished yet so you can't buy it
either" I now believe that the entry is indeed a hoax.

With this new information, I will join the original poster in agreeing
taht Sasha is green-brown pond scum with a bit of orange fuzz for
giving the sole "valid" entry second place.


Rereading the site doesn't help matters; Sasha seems to feel "in the
spirit of my essays, it doesn't matter [that it won't be released]". If
you forgot the debate/flame war of several weeks ago, let me quote:
"the literary work's true value always remains in the author's mind
alone, since its true integrity cannot be comprehended by the reader"
As I said, it does not make me inclided to believe in Sasha or Suddenly
the Trains.

Magnus Olsson

unread,
Aug 16, 2001, 6:43:14 AM8/16/01
to
In article <m1rjnt0jn1sa0gmrl...@4ax.com>,
Richie Adler <mg42...@uol.com.ar> wrote:
>On 14 Aug 2001 16:19:10 -0700, mrsam...@hotmail.com (Sam Barlow)
>wrote:

>
>>If it's not a joke, well, I'm impressed. What next, Esperanto IF?
>
>Maybe we should make a poll to see which one would have more available
>public to play it.

Are you seriously suggesting that there are more Esperantists than
Russians?

J.D. Berry

unread,
Aug 16, 2001, 8:49:59 AM8/16/01
to
>===== Original Message From m...@df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) =====

>In article <m1rjnt0jn1sa0gmrl...@4ax.com>,
>Richie Adler <mg42...@uol.com.ar> wrote:
>>On 14 Aug 2001 16:19:10 -0700, mrsam...@hotmail.com (Sam Barlow)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>If it's not a joke, well, I'm impressed. What next, Esperanto IF?
>>
>>Maybe we should make a poll to see which one would have more available
>>public to play it.
>
>Are you seriously suggesting that there are more Esperantists than
>Russians?

At least not until they get a salad dressing and a alcoholic beverage named
after them.

Jim

...and a "White Esperantist" for the lady, placi.

Ross Presser

unread,
Aug 16, 2001, 10:25:02 AM8/16/01
to

>>On 14 Aug 2001 16:19:10 -0700, mrsam...@hotmail.com (Sam Barlow)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>If it's not a joke, well, I'm impressed. What next, Esperanto IF?

There is an invented language called Loglan, and a related invented
language called Lojban. Reportedly a Lojban enthusiast translated all
the text from Adventure into Lojban. Like other languages, the parser
would also have to be adapted....

Tom Waddington

unread,
Aug 16, 2001, 1:20:15 PM8/16/01
to
Hello Billy,

> While I found the travelcomp web page to be {prententious is
> wrong... arrogant is wrong...AH} self-indulgent,

I am as a prone to arrogant pretension as the next literary artist and
visionary, and quite enjoyed reading the travelcomp web page.

> I do not conclude that Suddenly The Trains is a fictictious entry.
> In that vein, I found the initial post to be excessivly hostile,
> especially since it didn't explictly say "I think this entry is a
> hoax" leaving me quite confused as to the source of the hostility.

Indeed.

> However, with the announcement of "Oh, I must have forgotten to tell
> you; it's commercial and so can't be freely distributed. And even
> though it won first place it isn't finished yet so you can't buy it
> either" I now believe that the entry is indeed a hoax.

I wouldn't consider it conclusive evidence either way, and I won't
call the man a liar until I've seen some.

> With this new information, I will join the original poster in
> agreeing taht Sasha is green-brown pond scum with a bit of orange
> fuzz for giving the sole "valid" entry second place.

Let's not get carried away. If true, it would certainly be bad form
but, at the end of the day, it was a minicomp and Sasha's minicomp at
that, and he had the right to run it however he wanted.

> Rereading the site doesn't help matters; Sasha seems to feel "in the
> spirit of my essays, it doesn't matter [that it won't be released]".
> If you forgot the debate/flame war of several weeks ago, let me
> quote: "the literary work's true value always remains in the
> author's mind alone, since its true integrity cannot be comprehended
> by the reader" As I said, it does not make me inclided to believe in
> Sasha or Suddenly the Trains.

Hmm. I don't think Sasha would conceal that STTD was an imaginary
entry if it were. He has been so adamant that the idea is just as
valid, if not more so, than the execution. Personally I think that's
rot, but then I have a Yorkshireman's love of good craftmanship. If
he believes it, he would have no need to hide the fact that STTD
wasn't real.

For now, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

David Given

unread,
Aug 16, 2001, 12:56:50 PM8/16/01
to
In article <Xns90FF69EC0...@209.155.56.93>,
Ross Presser <rpre...@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid> writes:
[...]

> There is an invented language called Loglan, and a related invented
> language called Lojban. Reportedly a Lojban enthusiast translated all
> the text from Adventure into Lojban. Like other languages, the parser
> would also have to be adapted....

(Lojban is an Open Source reimplementation of Loglan, BTW. Loglan has some
pretty nasty copyright/patent issues.)

It wouldn't be particularly hard. However, you would have to make
allowances for the fact that Lojban doesn't have nouns or verbs. It has
predicates, which can be both...

A tavla B C = A talks to B about C in language D
A gerku B = A is a dog of breed B
A blari'o = A is blue-green
mi = me
do = you
la X = instance of X
ko = [command indicator]

mi tavla do = I talk to you
mi tavla la gerku = I talk to the dog
mi gerku = I am a dog
do blari'o gerku = You are a blue-green dog

You'd have to decide whether you wanted the user to use first person or
commands.

ko tavla la gerku = Talk to the dog!
ko gerku = Be a dog!

But the thing that makes Lojban so great for IF is that it's completely
regular; so regular, in fact, that the language is defined as a BNF. You
can download a program that will do a complete parse of a Lojban sentence.
Of course, you still have to understand it...

http://www.lojban.org/files/reference-grammar/chap2.html

--
+- David Given --------McQ-+ "Hydrogen fusion, the sun makes shine
| Work: d...@tao-group.com | Vascular pressure makes the ivy twine.
| Play: d...@cowlark.com | Because of Rayleigh, the sky's so blue.
+- http://www.cowlark.com -+ Hormonal fixation is why I love you." --- Zarf

Adam Thornton

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Aug 16, 2001, 9:11:53 PM8/16/01
to
In article <Xns90FF69EC0...@209.155.56.93>,

Ross Presser <rpre...@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid> wrote:
>There is an invented language called Loglan, and a related invented
>language called Lojban. Reportedly a Lojban enthusiast translated all
>the text from Adventure into Lojban. Like other languages, the parser
>would also have to be adapted....

Dibs on Volapuk Inform and, of course, the translation of _Curses_ into
Wilkins' Universal Character.

Adam

Adam Thornton

unread,
Aug 16, 2001, 9:18:57 PM8/16/01
to
In article <fd7c35e9.01081...@posting.google.com>,
Sasha <black_co...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Anna Rostovtseva (address &#8211; 600021, Vladimir, Russia, Komissarova
>St., 4b, Apt. 5; phone number &#8211; (0922) 32-86-50; e-mail &#8211;
>moiro...@yandex.ru).

This part, at least, ought to be verifiable, or at least would tell us
whether someone speaking Russian claiming to be Anna Rostovtseva
answered such email and--if any Russophones with a bit of cash to burn
have the hankering--answered the phone.

Adam

Ricardo SIGNES

unread,
Aug 16, 2001, 10:42:13 PM8/16/01
to
In article <9lg842$cg8$1...@news.lth.se>, Magnus Olsson wrote:
> In article <m1rjnt0jn1sa0gmrl...@4ax.com>,
> Richie Adler <mg42...@uol.com.ar> wrote:
>>On 14 Aug 2001 16:19:10 -0700, mrsam...@hotmail.com (Sam Barlow)
>>wrote:
>>>If it's not a joke, well, I'm impressed. What next, Esperanto IF?
>>Maybe we should make a poll to see which one would have more available
>>public to play it.
> Are you seriously suggesting that there are more Esperantists than
> Russians?

No, but perhaps we Esperantists have more time to play IF, since
we are not struggling to keep our feet shoed and our hearths
warm.

AL EKSTREMAJXO DE VOJO
Vi staras al la ekstremajxo de vojo antau brikokonstruadeto. Cxirkau vi
estas arbaro. Flueto fluas el la konstruado kaj for montfendo.
> salti
Vi saltas cxi tie, malfruktodone.

--
rjbs

John Colagioia

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Aug 17, 2001, 9:45:53 AM8/17/01
to
Adam Thornton wrote:

Why do I smell a competition for Inform translations coming...?


Jeremy Silver

unread,
Aug 17, 2001, 9:40:46 AM8/17/01
to
d...@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) wrote in message news:<i0ugl9...@127.0.0.1>...

> > >On 14 Aug 2001 16:19:10 -0700, mrsam...@hotmail.com (Sam Barlow)
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > > >If it's not a joke, well, I'm impressed. What next, Esperanto IF?
> In article <Xns90FF69EC0...@209.155.56.93>,
> Ross Presser <rpre...@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid> writes:
> [...]
> > There is an invented language called Loglan, and a related invented
> > language called Lojban. Reportedly a Lojban enthusiast translated all
> > the text from Adventure into Lojban. Like other languages, the parser
> > would also have to be adapted....
>
> (Lojban is an Open Source reimplementation of Loglan, BTW. Loglan has some
> pretty nasty copyright/patent issues.)

My vote goes to IF in tlhIngan Hol. Although this language suffers
from the Paramount/Viacom pretty nasty copyright/patent issues.

The Tempest in the original Klingon(tm) anyone?

>
> It wouldn't be particularly hard. However, you would have to make
> allowances for the fact that Lojban doesn't have nouns or verbs. It has
> predicates, which can be both...

This language is OTOH designed to be complicated, not to mention being
spoken forcefully through a set of plastic teeth ;)

It has nouns and verbs with prefixes and suffixes and a basic
object-verb-subject sentance structure.

e.g.
tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh'a'?

tlhIngan Hol - Noun referring to the Klingon(tm) language itself (the
Object).
Da- verb prefix indicating the nature of both the object and subject.
You (do something to) It, in this case.
jatlh - verb meaning speak.
-'a' - verb suffix indicating a yes/no question.

So in other words - "Do you speak Klingon?"

Here you could include as the Subject "SoH" or "You" to reinforce the
point, but it is not needed as the prefix already covers this.
e.g. tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh'a' SoH?


>
> A tavla B C = A talks to B about C in language D

A seriously complicated concept in this language. Moving swiftly on...

> A gerku B = A is a dog of breed B

B Segh targh 'oH A'e'
I think...

> A blari'o = A is blue-green

"A" SuD.

SuD - a verb meaning "be green" or "be blue" acting as an adjective to
the noun A.

> mi = me
jIH

> do = you
SoH

> ko = [command indicator]
To indicate the phrase is a command?

In this case an imperative verb prefix would be used.
e.g. jol yIchu'!
yI- - imperative prefix indicating that You must do something to It.
chu' - verb meaning to activate a device.
jol - transporter.

Hence - Activate the transporter!

>
> mi tavla do = I talk to you

qajatlh

> mi tavla la gerku = I talk to the dog

targhvaD jIjatlh
"targh vIjatlh" could also work, but also means "I say the word targ".

targh - noun referring to a dog like animal.
-vaD - noun suffix meaning the action is intended-for the noun.
jIjatlh just means "I speak".

> mi gerku = I am a dog

targh jIH
Here the pronoun jIH is being used as a verb indicating "I am".

> do blari'o gerku = You are a blue-green dog

targh SuD SoH

>
> ko tavla la gerku = Talk to the dog!

targhvaD yIjatlh!

> ko gerku = Be a dog!

targh yImoj
Become a Dog!

Or maybe
targh yIDa
Act in the manner of a dog!


The fun bit is saying something like "due to your apparent minor
mistakes",
which is QaghHommeyHeymo'.

Regards,
--
Jeremy Silver |\ jeremy at mupwi.demon.co.uk
__________________| \
|__________________| |
| | A1200T, Blizzard 1260, 34Mb
mupwI' yI'uchtaH! |__| 10Gb HD. Amiga Forever.

David Welbourn

unread,
Aug 17, 2001, 2:30:47 PM8/17/01
to

> If it's not a joke, well, I'm impressed. What next, Esperanto IF?
>
> --Sam

Yes. "Fajfeta sur la Luno" is an Esperanto translation of one of my speed-if
entries. It's not very good, mind you, as either IF or as Esperanto, but it
is Esperanto IF and it is at
http://irisreg.com.webhosting.axxent.ca/DavidW/fajfeta.zip

Note: in this version, type 'k' to go west, and 'r' to go east. The zip file
includes the esper.h and esperg.h files.

-- David Welbourn

Alan Anderson

unread,
Aug 17, 2001, 6:56:30 PM8/17/01
to
jer...@mupwi.demon.co.uk (Jeremy Silver) wrote:
>
> My vote goes to IF in tlhIngan Hol.

pa' jIHpu', ta' vIta'pu', yIvbeH vISuqpu'. Loosely translated, that's
"Been there, done that, got the t-shirt." :-) The old Klingon
Education Virtual Environment was a MUSH having Klingon descriptions
and objects which would respond appropriately. There were even
occasional multiplayer scenarios played out in Klingon.

> Although this language suffers
> from the Paramount/Viacom pretty nasty copyright/patent issues.

Any commercial product using the Klingon language is going to have
those issues to deal with, alas.

> The Tempest in the original Klingon(tm) anyone?

Somehow, I get the feeling you're not talking about the play, which
*is* on the list of things to be translated by the KSRP...

> This language is OTOH designed to be complicated,...

Klingon, complicated? Not by a long shot. It's a toy language compared
to the bulk of natural languages in the world. Which detracts not one
iota from its expressiveness, of course.

> not to mention being
> spoken forcefully through a set of plastic teeth ;)

I don't think the prosthetics were intentionally taken into account
during its design, but the core sounds which provided its basic
phonology *were* spoken through those teeth, so the right twists of
pronunciation got in there more or less by default. :-)

***

I doubt that anyone is going to care, but I have to nitpick the
translation here just a bit:

> > A blari'o = A is blue-green
> "A" SuD.
>
> SuD - a verb meaning "be green" or "be blue" acting as an adjective to
> the noun A.

Actually, the correct translation would be the other way around:

SuD "A"

The verb here is acting in its true role as a verb, not as an
adjective.

> The fun bit is saying something like "due to your apparent minor
> mistakes",
> which is QaghHommeyHeymo'.

You left out the {-lIj} suffix just before {-mo'}, but I won't condemn
you due to your apparent minor mistakes. ;-)

--
Alan Anderson, professional programmer and amateur Klingonist
proud member of the Klingon Language Institute since 1995
qo'mey poSmoH Hol -- language opens worlds -- htpp://www.kli.org/

Magnus Olsson

unread,
Aug 17, 2001, 8:02:46 PM8/17/01
to
In article <slrn9np144...@humptydumpty.manxome.org>,

Ricardo SIGNES <sam...@humptydumpty.manxome.org> wrote:
>In article <9lg842$cg8$1...@news.lth.se>, Magnus Olsson wrote:
>> In article <m1rjnt0jn1sa0gmrl...@4ax.com>,
>> Richie Adler <mg42...@uol.com.ar> wrote:
>>>On 14 Aug 2001 16:19:10 -0700, mrsam...@hotmail.com (Sam Barlow)
>>>wrote:
>>>>If it's not a joke, well, I'm impressed. What next, Esperanto IF?
>>>Maybe we should make a poll to see which one would have more available
>>>public to play it.
>> Are you seriously suggesting that there are more Esperantists than
>> Russians?
>
>No, but perhaps we Esperantists have more time to play IF, since
>we are not struggling to keep our feet shoed and our hearths
>warm.

Not all Russians are struggling with poverty, and I suspect
that many Esperantists live in countries that aren't that
well off either. What about Russian Esperantists, by the way -
wasn't Esperanto banned by the Communists?

Ilya Goz

unread,
Aug 18, 2001, 4:24:46 AM8/18/01
to
m...@df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) 00:02 18/8/2001 wrote:

MO> Not all Russians are struggling with poverty, and I suspect that many
MO> Esperantists live in countries that aren't that well off either. What
MO> about Russian Esperantists, by the way - wasn't Esperanto banned by
MO> the Communists?

It was somewhat popular in Soviet Union in 20's, but banned later. In
30's, many Esperantists were accused of spying, imprisoned or executed. It
was legalized again (and even marginally supported) by the end of 50's.

There are still more Russian Esperantists than Russian IF players, I
suppose.

--
Ilya V. Goz

Jonadab the Unsightly One

unread,
Aug 18, 2001, 6:01:17 PM8/18/01
to
aran...@netusa1.net (Alan Anderson) wrote:

> > This language is OTOH designed to be complicated,...
>
> Klingon, complicated? Not by a long shot. It's a toy language compared
> to the bulk of natural languages in the world. Which detracts not one
> iota from its expressiveness, of course.

Klingon is designed to be unlike English. This makes it seem
complicated to someone whose only knowledge of grammar comes
from knowing English. While English grammar is fairly complex,
it doesn't seem so bad if you've spoken it all your life.


- jonadab

Aris Katsaris

unread,
Aug 18, 2001, 8:36:51 PM8/18/01
to

Jonadab the Unsightly One <jon...@bright.net> wrote in message
news:3b7ee51a...@news.bright.net...

> While English grammar is fairly complex,

I think it's much more simple than many other languages... Certainly
more simple than Greek grammar...

Aris Katsaris

Brian C. Lane

unread,
Aug 19, 2001, 12:25:33 AM8/19/01
to
In article <Xns90FD8FDB1...@209.155.56.91>, Ross Presser wrote:
>"Lucian P. Smith" <lps...@rice.edu> wrote:
>
>> It is not customary to give the only entry you receive second place.
>
>He received two entries; however, one was (a) in Russian and (b) too
>large to be easily distributed.

I'd happily donate the disk space and bandwith for any difficult to
distribute IF games. Just put them into the ftp.guetech.org/incoming directory
and I'll see that it gets an announcement on guetech.org

I was planning on entering, but didn't find the time. Hopefully it will be
done for the annual comp.

Brian

--
Brian C. Lane - GUETech Administrator www.guetech.org
West Coast IF-Archive available ftp.guetech.org
========================================================================
Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no
rule making or legislation which would abrogate them.
-- Miranda vs. Arizona, 384 US 436 p. 491

Jeremy Silver

unread,
Aug 20, 2001, 6:21:07 AM8/20/01
to
aran...@netusa1.net (Alan Anderson) wrote in message news:<24f07aba.01081...@posting.google.com>...

> jer...@mupwi.demon.co.uk (Jeremy Silver) wrote:
> >
> > My vote goes to IF in tlhIngan Hol.
>
> pa' jIHpu', ta' vIta'pu', yIvbeH vISuqpu'. Loosely translated, that's
> "Been there, done that, got the t-shirt." :-)
;)

> The old Klingon Education Virtual Environment was a MUSH having Klingon
> descriptions and objects which would respond appropriately. There were even
> occasional multiplayer scenarios played out in Klingon.

I have been missing that place myself, any idea if it will be reborn?

>
> > Although this language suffers
> > from the Paramount/Viacom pretty nasty copyright/patent issues.
>
> Any commercial product using the Klingon language is going to have
> those issues to deal with, alas.

I have a WIP (I hope, the latest version may be recoverable after a
recent hard-drive accident :( ) which was never going to be a
commercial product - or at this rate released.

>
> > The Tempest in the original Klingon(tm) anyone?
>
> Somehow, I get the feeling you're not talking about the play, which
> *is* on the list of things to be translated by the KSRP...

IIRC it was Graham Nelson (bow bow scrape scrape) who did the IF
version of the play.

>
> > This language is OTOH designed to be complicated,...
>
> Klingon, complicated? Not by a long shot.

OK maybe not so much complicated, but "different" or dare I say Alien
;)

> ***


>
> but I won't condemn you due to your apparent minor mistakes. ;-)

Aaahhh! SovlIj nIv vIvan.
That is what I get for thinking no experts will be reading this and I
wouldn't need to post a correction. HIvqa' veqlargh!

Carl Muckenhoupt

unread,
Aug 20, 2001, 10:54:52 AM8/20/01
to
In article <30ebf35b.01082...@posting.google.com>,
jer...@mupwi.demon.co.uk says...

> > > The Tempest in the original Klingon(tm) anyone?
> >
> > Somehow, I get the feeling you're not talking about the play, which
> > *is* on the list of things to be translated by the KSRP...
>
> IIRC it was Graham Nelson (bow bow scrape scrape) who did the IF
> version of the play.

There's at least one other adventure game based on the play, but Nelson's
implementation uses Shakespeare's text, and thus would probably be easier
to translate given a translation of the play.

It also seems fairly natural to translate Star Trek-based games into this
tongue.

(BTW, I've heard it claimed that the Klingon home planet was originally
called Klingus. Which explains why they consistently refer to it as "The
Klingon home planet" in TNG and later series. Is there any truth to
this?)

Carl Muckenhoupt

unread,
Aug 20, 2001, 11:06:13 AM8/20/01
to
In article <Xns90FF69EC0...@209.155.56.93>,
rpre...@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid says...

>
> >>On 14 Aug 2001 16:19:10 -0700, mrsam...@hotmail.com (Sam Barlow)
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>>If it's not a joke, well, I'm impressed. What next, Esperanto IF?

There are already at least two original Esperanto text adventures.

There's David Welbourn's "Fajfeta sur la Luno", which is still in testing
but is available from his web page along with source code of his Inform
language definition file for Esperanto.

There's also an older game called "La Insulo Tes^el", which is the sample
game that comes with "Aventuro", an authoring system for Esperanto text
adventures. I have yet to see any evidence that Aventuro was ever used
for any other games, and I frankly don't recommend that it be used now
that Inform and TADS are adaptable enough to handle the same things.

Matthew Russotto

unread,
Aug 20, 2001, 11:04:47 AM8/20/01
to
In article <MPG.15eaeec47...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>,

Carl Muckenhoupt <ca...@wurb.com> wrote:
>
>(BTW, I've heard it claimed that the Klingon home planet was originally
>called Klingus. Which explains why they consistently refer to it as "The
>Klingon home planet" in TNG and later series. Is there any truth to
>this?)

IIRC, the novels (non-canonical) refer to it as Klinzhai.


--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
=====
Get Caught Reading, Go To Jail!
A message from the Association of American Publishers
Free Dmitry Sklyarov! DMCA delenda est!
http://www.freedmitry.org

Andrew Plotkin

unread,
Aug 20, 2001, 11:09:55 AM8/20/01
to
Carl Muckenhoupt <ca...@wurb.com> wrote:

> (BTW, I've heard it claimed that the Klingon home planet was originally
> called Klingus. Which explains why they consistently refer to it as "The
> Klingon home planet" in TNG and later series. Is there any truth to
> this?)

There never was an original name for the Klingon home planet. The
original TV series never mentioned one.

When John M. Ford wrote _The Final Reflection_, one of the earliest
Star Trek novels and I think the first one to focus on the Klingons as
a culture, he called the planet Klinzhai. (But all of what he invented
was thrown out by later movies and novels.)

By the end of DS9, the place was pretty consistently being referred to
as Kronos. This conflicts with the sixth movie in some way I don't
remember what it is.

I can attest that when undergraduates at CMU were playing Nettrek in
the very earlier 90's, the abbreviation for the Klingon homeworld was
"KLI" (all planets had three-letter abbreviations) and everyone called
it "Klingus". It sounded damn stupid then, too.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.

L. Ross Raszewski

unread,
Aug 20, 2001, 1:56:09 PM8/20/01
to
On 20 Aug 2001 15:09:55 GMT, Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>By the end of DS9, the place was pretty consistently being referred to
>as Kronos. This conflicts with the sixth movie in some way I don't
>remember what it is.

Only that that was the name of the Klingon homeworld in that movie,
which implied that they would shortly abandon it.

>
>I can attest that when undergraduates at CMU were playing Nettrek in
>the very earlier 90's, the abbreviation for the Klingon homeworld was
>"KLI" (all planets had three-letter abbreviations) and everyone called
>it "Klingus". It sounded damn stupid then, too.
>

The "Worlds of the Federation" technical book calls the planet
"Kling", giving its name in the native tongue as 'Klinzhai'.

On a related note, in 'The Trouble With Tribbles', a Klingon refers to
their language not by the usual dumbed-down name, "Klingon", but as
"Klingonese".

Alan Anderson

unread,
Aug 20, 2001, 9:16:39 PM8/20/01
to
jer...@mupwi.demon.co.uk (Jeremy Silver) wrote:
>
> > The old Klingon Education Virtual Environment was a MUSH having Klingon
> > descriptions and objects which would respond appropriately. There were even
> > occasional multiplayer scenarios played out in Klingon.
>
> I have been missing that place myself, any idea if it will be reborn?

The KLI's internet presence has moved to a new server. Bringing a new
MUSH online is one of the short-term goals. It most likely won't be
Bordertown reborn; the old database exists, but the appropriate host
software isn't easily run on the new machine. Right now, I think the
plans are for a much simpler place with but a few rooms, focusing more
on conversation than on exploration.

But people will certainly be encouraged to build, and if you'd like to
put together a nice interactive section for people to enjoy, nobody is
going to complain. :-)

> > but I won't condemn you due to your apparent minor mistakes. ;-)
>
> Aaahhh! SovlIj nIv vIvan.
> That is what I get for thinking no experts will be reading this and I
> wouldn't need to post a correction.

With Google Groups doing my bidding, I'm likely to make an appearance
whenever and wherever the Klingon language is misrepresented or
misused, mwahahahaha!

> HIvqa' veqlargh!

The matter is forgotten.

--
Alan Anderson, professional programmer and amateur Klingonist
proud member of the Klingon Language Institute since 1995

qo'mey poSmoH Hol -- language opens worlds -- http://www.kli.org/

Alan Anderson

unread,
Aug 20, 2001, 9:28:05 PM8/20/01
to
Carl Muckenhoupt <ca...@wurb.com> wrote:

> (BTW, I've heard it claimed that the Klingon home planet was originally
> called Klingus. Which explains why they consistently refer to it as "The
> Klingon home planet" in TNG and later series. Is there any truth to
> this?)

Not Klingus, but just Kling.

A couple of novels by John Ford dubbed the Klingon homeworld
"Klinzhai", and much of Klingon fandom still has its roots in that
non-Paramount version of Klingon history and culture.

The Klingon home planet wasn't discussed in the original series. I
think an animated episode might have made reference to "Nognilk" in a
backwards-running parallel universe, but I never saw it. A
first-season episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation has a couple of
renegade Klingons ranting about "the traitors of Kling." The writers
quickly realized how silly that sounded as the home of a warrior race,
and it's apparently now officially a "district" somewhere on the
homeworld, appearing as such in the Star Trek Encyclopedia and on a
cutaway Klingon Bird of Prey poster.

It wasn't until "Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country" that the
Klingon homeworld's name of Qo'noS (mutilated into "Kronos" in
Federation Standard) was made known.

I don't know which of the Star Trek computer games mention the Klingon
homeworld by name. I'm pretty sure "Star Trek: Klingon" calls it
Qo'noS.

--
Alan Anderson, professional programmer and amateur Klingonist
proud member of the Klingon Language Institute since 1995

qo'mey poSmoH Hol -- language opens worlds -- http://www.kli.org/

Alan Anderson

unread,
Aug 20, 2001, 9:35:03 PM8/20/01
to
Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:

> I can attest that when undergraduates at CMU were playing Nettrek in
> the very earlier 90's, the abbreviation for the Klingon homeworld was
> "KLI" (all planets had three-letter abbreviations) and everyone called
> it "Klingus". It sounded damn stupid then, too.

The even earlier 80s had "Empire" on the PLATO system at the
University of Illinois. For some reason which was never adequately
explained to me, that game's equivalent of the Klingons were named
Kazari. Their home planet was Kazar; I can't remember what the other
two planets in the system were. (The other three "teams" in the game
were Federation, Romulan, and Orion.)

--
Alan Anderson, professional programmer and amateur Klingonist
proud member of the Klingon Language Institute since 1995

qo'mey poSmoH Hol -- language opens worlds -- http://www.kli.org/

Alan Anderson

unread,
Aug 20, 2001, 9:42:25 PM8/20/01
to
lrasz...@loyola.edu (L. Ross Raszewski) wrote:

> On a related note, in 'The Trouble With Tribbles', a Klingon refers to
> their language not by the usual dumbed-down name, "Klingon", but as
> "Klingonese".

It's hard to tell whether he couldn't finish the word because he was
laughing, or if he did finish it and then started laughing. Whatever
the case, what he actually says sounds like "Klingonee". I suspect
the line was written as "That's why they're all learning Klingoni!
[laughs]."

John Ford lets the Federation get away with calling it Klingonese, but
in his telling of the story, the native rendition of the language's
name is "Klingonaase". Its etymology is given as "tool for
manipulating the embodiment of the Klin principle". That's a damn
sight more interesting than the bland Paramount-sanctioned {tlhingan
Hol}, literally "Klingon's language".

--
Alan Anderson, professional programmer and amateur Klingonist
proud member of the Klingon Language Institute since 1995

qo'mey poSmoH Hol -- language opens worlds -- http://www.kli.org/

L. Ross Raszewski

unread,
Aug 21, 2001, 3:43:08 AM8/21/01
to
On 20 Aug 2001 18:42:25 -0700, Alan Anderson <aran...@netusa1.net> wrote:
>John Ford lets the Federation get away with calling it Klingonese, but
>in his telling of the story, the native rendition of the language's
>name is "Klingonaase". Its etymology is given as "tool for
>manipulating the embodiment of the Klin principle". That's a damn
>sight more interesting than the bland Paramount-sanctioned {tlhingan
>Hol}, literally "Klingon's language".

Yeah, but it's a shame that 'Klingonaase' sounds like a salad dressing
for warriors.

--
L. Ross Raszewski
Yeah. Warriors eat salads too.

Jaap van der Velde

unread,
Aug 21, 2001, 4:11:58 AM8/21/01
to
On 16 Aug 2001 10:43:14 GMT, m...@df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) wrote:

> Are you seriously suggesting that there are more Esperantists than
> Russians?

Well, there might be more Esperantists with internet access and
an almost necrofiliac inclination towards languages kept barely
alive by a small population, which is a definite plus for both
IF-lovers and Esperantists...

Why not ask the people present? Let's hear it: who'd be able to
make heads or tails of a Russian or Esperanto work of IF? :)

*...* (<- deafening silence. ouch)

Grtz,
JAAP.