[Announce] TADS 2 and 3 updaets

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Mike Roberts

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Sep 15, 2006, 9:58:38 PM9/15/06
to
[Sorry to post this separately to raif and rgif - I accidentally failed to
cross-post my first attempt.]

I'm pleased to announce the first TADS 3 General Release, and also a TADS 2
maintenance update.

As long-time raif readers know, TADS 3 has been in "beta" for quite some
time. Well, we're finally declaring it ready. The official release version
is available immediately from tads.org (see below), and has been uploaded to
the IF Archive, where it will be available as soon as it makes its way
through the normal formalities.

This release includes a bundle of documentation, organized into several
(virtual) books: Eric Eve's Getting Started in TADS 3, a tutorial
introduction; Eric's TADS 3 Tour Guide, an in-depth survey of the library,
with practical examples of how to use most of the classes; the System
Manual, a reference covering the language, run-time system, and compiler and
other tools; the Technical Manual, a collection of mostly task-oriented "how
to" articles that go into depth on topics of interest to many authors; and
the Library Reference Manual, with details on virtually everything in the
library and extensive cross-references.

As many of you know, I had long been planning on writing a more traditional,
monolithic, textbook-style manual, and part of what held up the software
release for so long was this planned linkage to a new manual. But other
priorities kept me from ever starting in earnest on that project, much less
completing it, and it was becoming clear that this wasn't going to change.
Sometimes one must admit that "staying the course" is not a viable plan.
So, I decided to release the software, even without a manual. I wanted to
have *something* to point people to by way of documentation, though, so I
figured I'd look to see what was already available. What I found was that
there's actually a wealth of good material already, and taken together, it
covers just about everything that I would have put into a monolithic manual.

I decided that if I could put everything together in an organized package,
the result would cover most of what a manual would have. So I contacted
Eric, whose two books cover a huge part of what I had in mind, and Edward
Stauff, who wrote the program that generates the Library Reference, and I
asked them about including their work in the software distribution. They
graciously agreed, and in fact Eric quite enthusiastically embraced the
idea. Eric did a considerable amount of work helping me plan the overall
set of documentation, and then revising and expanding his books and even
contributing new material to other parts of the set. I also did some
sprucing up of my parts, and a little light editing of some of the other
contributions.

The end result is, I think, in some ways better than a textbook-style tome
would have been. The loose federation of books means that each one is
purpose-built, so it can fill its role in a way that a chapter in a book
usually can't. And given the amount of information that needs to be
covered, a single book would almost certainly have been unwieldy, at best.
I'm pretty pleased with the results; the real test is that people will find
it useful, of course, but I think they will.

On to the download specifics:

The TADS 3 General Release, version 3.0.12, is available for download now
from

http://www.tads.org/tads3.htm

That page has links for the various available packages and configurations.
The software has also been uploaded to the IF Archive; you should be able to
find it under the if-archive/unprocessed directory soon, and in the
if-archive/programming/tads3 directory in due course.

The new TADS 2 update, version 2.5.10, can be download for Windows and in
source-code form from

http://www.tads.org/t2_patch.htm

It's also been uploaded the Archive and is in the posting process. This is
a maintenance update, mostly to fix a number of bugs.

The TADS 3 documentation is quite large as installed (about 35 MB), mostly
because of the extensive cross-referencing in the Library Reference. Given
the modern miracle of perpendicular magnetic domains and so on, this might
not be much of a practical concern to anyone; but in case it is, the
Author's Kit is available with or without the doc bundle. If you choose the
"no doc" version, you'll get Web links to the on-line edition, so the
experience will be relatively seamless. If you just want to view the
documentation on-line, visit

http://www.tads.org/t3doc/doc/index.htm

My thanks to everyone who's contributed to the project. Special thanks to
Eric for all his work in creating the excellent Getting Started and Tour
Guide books, and for his kind permission to offer them as part of the
documentation package.

Mike Roberts
mjr underscore at hotmail dot com


Rob G

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Sep 15, 2006, 10:33:39 PM9/15/06
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Right on :-) I picked a good time to get back into IF

James Mitchelhill

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Sep 15, 2006, 10:51:49 PM9/15/06
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On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 01:58:38 GMT, Mike Roberts wrote:

> I'm pleased to announce the first TADS 3 General Release

About bloody time. ;)

Seriously, though, this is excellent news. TADS 3 is an astounding piece of
work.

--
James Mitchelhill
ja...@disorderfeed.net
http://disorderfeed.net

Stebbins

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Sep 16, 2006, 12:51:14 AM9/16/06
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Mike Roberts wrote:
> I'm pleased to announce the first TADS 3 General Release, and also a TADS 2
> maintenance update.

I downloaded the previous TADS 3 Release Candidate a few days ago. Do
you recommend downloading the General Release version, or are the two
essentially the same?

~Stebbins

Nikos Chantziaras

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Sep 16, 2006, 5:09:36 AM9/16/06
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Mike Roberts wrote:
> I'm pleased to announce the first TADS 3 General Release, and also a TADS 2
> maintenance update.

Is it OK to assume that the release of Inform 7 had an influence on your
release schedules? ;)

Graham Nelson

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Sep 16, 2006, 5:59:16 AM9/16/06
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James Mitchelhill wrote:
> TADS 3 is an astounding piece of work.

And so say all of us. Many congratulations to the TADS 3 team for
bringing the ship into harbour, so to speak - or perhaps it should be
the opposite metaphor, setting sail onto the open seas.

"Nothing is hidden except in order to be revealed," according to Mark
4:22, which Eric quotes in chapter 8 of the TADS 3 Tour Guide - a
perhaps slightly tenuous attempt to find the roots of interactive
fiction in the New Testament, this - but not the least achievement of
TADS 3 is that it has come to its release entirely openly, with nothing
hidden at all. That may perhaps mean there is less to be "revealed"
when a milestone like today's is reached, or at any rate, less of a
sense of theatre. But I for one think it marks a significant event in
the history of interactive fiction, of which TADS has been and
continues to be one of the great achievements.

IF needs both diversity and convergence: diversity of tools and
approaches to help writers to realise their plans, but convergence for
players and browsers, who want to find and explore the literature. We
are already starting to see programs which can play story files for
multiple types of virtual machine, using a unified form of
bibliographic data. I hope we shall see much more of this, and that IF
browsing tools and web-based services will enable us to have a modern,
appealing, thoroughly platform-agnostic, virtual machine-agnostic,
experience for players. iTunes 7 came out this week, and perhaps it
ought to remind us that we aren't all that far away from being able to
have something similar for playing and finding IF. (With some
server-side work at the Archive, existing tools like Zoom and
Spatterlight would be nearly there.) "My father's house has many
rooms," but what is IF unless it is the genre in which rooms
interconnect?

But I am straying from my sheep. What I really meant to say was: well
done to all involved.

quic...@quickfur.ath.cx

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Sep 16, 2006, 10:22:22 AM9/16/06
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On Sat, Sep 16, 2006 at 03:51:49AM +0100, James Mitchelhill wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 01:58:38 GMT, Mike Roberts wrote:
>
> > I'm pleased to announce the first TADS 3 General Release
>
> About bloody time. ;)
>
> Seriously, though, this is excellent news. TADS 3 is an astounding
> piece of work.
[...]

Seconded. Even though I've barely begun to scratch the surface of the
ADV3 library, the utter flexibility of TADS already allows me to create
such fascinating things as rooms with 3 degrees of rotation, and have
the description automatically updated (without needing to code all
possibilities directly), or even a PC knowledge extension in which the
descriptions (and even actions on) objects change depending on what the
player has learned through the course of the story.


QF

--
Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us many useful
objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets. Imagination without skill
gives us modern art. -- Tom Stoppard

Mike Roberts

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Sep 16, 2006, 4:17:08 PM9/16/06
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Nikos Chantziaras has updated FrobTADS to synchronize with yesterday's
system updates (3.0.12 and 2.5.10). FrobTADS is the package to use if
you're on Linux, Solaris, Mac OS X, BeOS, BSD, or other Unix systems; you
can even use it on Windows.

--Mike


Mike Roberts

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Sep 16, 2006, 4:19:52 PM9/16/06
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"Stebbins" <moja...@yahoo.com> wrote

> I downloaded the previous TADS 3 Release Candidate a few days ago.
> Do you recommend downloading the General Release version, or are
> the two essentially the same?

They're almost the same; just a couple of bug fixes. If you have a fast
internet connection, so that the download isn't too onerous, I would
recommend updating to pick up the bug fixes.

--Mike

Mike Roberts

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Sep 16, 2006, 4:21:02 PM9/16/06
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Er, it probably would have been a lot more helpful if I'd mentioned where
you can find it:

http://www.tads.org/frobtads.htm

--Mike

Emily Short

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Sep 17, 2006, 6:13:23 AM9/17/06
to

Mike Roberts wrote:
> [Sorry to post this separately to raif and rgif - I accidentally failed to
> cross-post my first attempt.]
>
> I'm pleased to announce the first TADS 3 General Release, and also a TADS 2
> maintenance update.

Excellent news -- congratulations to everyone involved.

steve....@gmail.com

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Sep 18, 2006, 2:34:00 PM9/18/06
to
Graham Nelson wrote:
> Many congratulations to the TADS 3 team for
> bringing the ship into harbour, so to speak - or perhaps it should be
> the opposite metaphor, setting sail onto the open seas.

Or maybe there's no real call for metaphoric wax on the release of TADS
3.

> "Nothing is hidden except in order to be revealed," according to Mark
> 4:22, which Eric quotes in chapter 8 of the TADS 3 Tour Guide - a
> perhaps slightly tenuous attempt to find the roots of interactive

> fiction in the New Testament[.]

To quote the piece in entirety:

> Nothing is hidden except in order to be revealed, nor does anything become
> concealed but that it might come into the open. - Mark 4.22
>
> Mark was writing about Jesus' parables, not Interactive Fiction, although since
> according to at least some commentators Mark treats Jesus' parables as riddles and
> according to Nick Montfort (Twisty Little Passages. Cambridge, MA & London: MIT
> Press, 2003) the riddle is of the precursors of IF, there may be a tenuous link here. It
> may be that Mark portrays Jesus' parables as employing concealment as a strategy
> of revelation; it is certainly the case that IF authors often hide objects in their games
> with the intention that the player will find them (hopefully with more success than the
> disciples in Mark).

Anyway, nowhere can anyone intelligently sense any attempt whatsoever
"to find the roots of interactive fiction in the New Testament." That
is not the point at all. It's a "tenuous link," a tenous connection. A
passing comment on a similarity that the author finds in his (non-IF)
professional work.

Graham has been justly criticized for including tenuous and irrelevant
quotes at the beginning of his DM4 chapters, and wants to spread the
blame. That's why he's written this nonsense.

> but not the least achievement of
> TADS 3 is that it has come to its release entirely openly, with nothing
> hidden at all.

Well, that's not entirely true. It is wonderful, and wonderfully
useful, that TADS 3 was developed openly. Still, I wouldn't associate
openness with "achievement." Openness is more of an initial decision,
an ethical standard.

> IF needs both diversity and convergence: diversity of tools and
> approaches to help writers to realise their plans, but convergence for
> players and browsers, who want to find and explore the literature. We
> are already starting to see programs which can play story files for
> multiple types of virtual machine, using a unified form of
> bibliographic data. I hope we shall see much more of this, and that IF
> browsing tools and web-based services will enable us to have a modern,
> appealing, thoroughly platform-agnostic, virtual machine-agnostic,
> experience for players. iTunes 7 came out this week, and perhaps it
> ought to remind us that we aren't all that far away from being able to
> have something similar for playing and finding IF. (With some
> server-side work at the Archive, existing tools like Zoom and
> Spatterlight would be nearly there.)

Ok great, so you're in favor of cross-VM 'terps.

> "My father's house has many
> rooms," but what is IF unless it is the genre in which rooms
> interconnect?

What? You noticed Eric Eve, a scholar of the Bible, using a Biblical
reference intelligently, and you can't wait to drop one yourself?
Please note: it's obvious the difference. Eric comes off as
intelligent, while your foolery curls the toenails.

> But I am straying from my sheep. What I really meant to say was: well
> done to all involved.

Who or what sheep are you talking about? Seriously, are you calling I7
users "your sheep?" Oh Jesus. (No I don't mean you.)

Nikos Chantziaras

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Sep 18, 2006, 2:46:11 PM9/18/06
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steve....@gmail.com wrote:
> [...]

Oh lol. Here we go again :P

James Cunningham

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Sep 18, 2006, 4:31:07 PM9/18/06
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Ah, Doc Stevie, his mouth full of cursing and bitterness; destruction
and misery are his ways, and his soul has never known peace. Would that
his mouth be silenced, that he could be brought to justice before
Graham Nelson!

Best,
James

Quintin Stone

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Sep 19, 2006, 9:37:44 AM9/19/06
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On Mon, 18 Sep 2006, steve....@gmail.com wrote:

> Or maybe there's no real call for metaphoric wax on the release of TADS
> 3.

C'mon, Stevie. Time to grow up.

==--- --=--=-- ---==
Quintin Stone "You speak of necessary evil? One of those necessities
st...@rps.net is that if innocents must suffer, the guilty must suffer
www.rps.net more." - Mackenzie Calhoun, "Once Burned" by Peter David

Stuart Moore

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Sep 19, 2006, 1:43:24 PM9/19/06
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Quintin Stone wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2006, steve....@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Or maybe there's no real call for metaphoric wax on the release of TADS
>> 3.
>
> C'mon, Stevie. Time to grow up.

A troll, grow up?

--
Stuart "Sslaxx" Moore
http://sslaxx.livejournal.com/

Adam Thornton

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Sep 19, 2006, 8:58:17 PM9/19/06
to
In article <1158604440.2...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
steve....@gmail.com wrote:

> Who or what sheep are you talking about? Seriously, are you calling I7
> users "your sheep?" Oh Jesus. (No I don't mean you.)

Bah! Bah, I say. Bah, bah, bah.

Adam

Kevin Forchione

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Sep 19, 2006, 10:28:56 PM9/19/06
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"Adam Thornton" <ad...@fsf.net> wrote in message
news:adam-D0A456.1...@fileserver.fsf.net...

I've always considered myself one of the old goats...

--Kevin


JDC

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Sep 20, 2006, 12:09:36 AM9/20/06
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At least no one mentioned moose.

-JDC

JDC

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Sep 20, 2006, 12:13:31 AM9/20/06
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At least no one mentioned moose.

-JDC

Adam Thornton

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Sep 20, 2006, 12:49:53 AM9/20/06
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In article <1158725611.3...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,

"JDC" <jd...@psu.edu> wrote:
> At least no one mentioned moose.

My sister was bitten by a mřřse once.

Adam

Richard Bos

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Sep 20, 2006, 4:01:03 AM9/20/06
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Adam Thornton <ad...@fsf.net> wrote:

*Cough* A mřřse once bit my sister...

Richard B. Llama

Mynd you, mřřse bites Kan be pretty nasti...

Graham Nelson

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Sep 21, 2006, 5:50:01 AM9/21/06
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steve....@gmail.com wrote:
> > But I am straying from my sheep. What I really meant to say was: well
> > done to all involved.
>
> Who or what sheep are you talking about?

A rather pleasing expression borrowed into English from a French
proverb: it means "but I have wandered from the subject I meant to talk
about, and will now return". I do not think it's all that obscure in
either meaning or usage, but perhaps it hasn't made it to American
English yet.

Kevin Forchione

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Sep 21, 2006, 12:05:56 PM9/21/06
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"Graham Nelson" <gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1158832201.7...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...

Doubtful that it will, since Americans have lost use for sheep as a
commodity outside of evangelical metaphor. However, it might make headway in
the political arena with the slight alteration: "But I am straying from my
pork..."

--Kevin


steve....@gmail.com

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Sep 21, 2006, 4:48:18 PM9/21/06
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It's nice that, upon reflection, this is what you would like to have
meant, but your claim on the expression is obviously untrue.

The pastoral, as a source of imagery and a ready reference, was already
well exhausted two centuries ago. Of course a competent writer could
conceivably invent such a figure, or borrow one from now-archaic
tradition, but would never employ such as this one in the context of
New Testament, where the shepherd/sheep trope is entirely determined,
indeed overdetermined.

Still, I appreciate the lie, if only insofar as it signs an implicit
acknowledgement that you've been entirely got, and that your
magalomania is quite unattractive. Please note that flailing
incompetence almost always accompanies condescension, so you might best
avoid either by simply avoiding both. Anyway, I hope your further
experiments will occur outside earshot; they are not at all, as you
say, pleasing.

Nikos Chantziaras

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Sep 21, 2006, 5:55:15 PM9/21/06
to
steve....@gmail.com wrote:
> [...]

> Still, I appreciate the lie, if only insofar as it signs an implicit
> acknowledgement that you've been entirely got, and that your
> magalomania [...]

It's "megalomania". :P

Kevin Forchione

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Sep 21, 2006, 7:50:49 PM9/21/06
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"Nikos Chantziaras" <rea...@arcor.de> wrote in message
news:eev1o2$irb$1...@mouse.otenet.gr...

I'm sure that Steve means this in the context of the Hebrew "maga" meaning
combat, and is saying that Graham has an obsession with warfare. Hence the
continuing feud between them. Perhaps this is his attempt to extend the
olive branch...

--Kevin


Adam Thornton

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Sep 21, 2006, 8:26:30 PM9/21/06
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In article <rzFQg.98$zf3.93@fed1read03>,

"Kevin Forchione" <ke...@lysseus.com> wrote:
> I'm sure that Steve means this in the context of the Hebrew "maga" meaning
> combat, and is saying that Graham has an obsession with warfare.

AHEM.

<mode="Steve Breslin">

As can clearly be seen in the poncy and pretentious wankfodder of
"Jigsaw." The author of Jigsaw is clearly in grave need of
psychological counselling, by which I mean being locked in a padded cell
and lobotomized.

"Jigsaw" is precisely the sort of half-bright half-cocked work you'd
expect from someone who's read the Cliff's Notes version of Wittgenstein
and rubbed it all over himself while listening to his recording of Eliot
himself reading _The Book of Practical Cats_, in a lavender-scented
bubble bath. However, its half-cockiness perfectly suits the author's
halfwittedness.

</mode>

There, now that I've said it, perhaps Steve won't feel the need to.

Adam

Zonk the Troll Questioner

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Sep 21, 2006, 11:48:00 PM9/21/06
to

Yes, of course. What Graham really meant is that he seems himself as
Jesus Christ and the users of Inform as his disciples to whom he feeds
the NL-wafers of I7. That was surely his intent when writing that
sentence.

Or perhaps your personal attacks reveal that it is actually you who are
either a liar or deeply incompetent. Let's examine the evidence.

You have often maintained that one of your primary concerns is to be
engaged in the honest intellectual discussion of ideas. In fact, you
have often labeled criticisms leveled at you as petty personal attacks
whose only aim is to avoid the issues involved, and thus degrade and
derail the level of intellectual discourse.

However, this claim does not sit well with your seemingly unavoidable
penchant for making personal attacks upon the character of Graham
Nelson (and Emily Short). One must conclude that either (a) you are a
liar -- you do not care about the obvious degradation to discourse
repeated attempts at character assassination cause or (b) you are
incompetent -- you actually do care, but are simply too intellectually
and emotionally weak (or confused) to control yourself.

Furthermore, you do irreparable damage to actually valid and
worthy-of-discussion theoretical criticisms you sometimes raise,
because it becomes all too easy for anyone to justifiably claim all
your criticisms arise from personal vendetta instead of careful
thought. That this should be obvious to you, and you continue to use
these tactics regardless, further displays deep intellectual
incompetence.

-- ZtTQ

Gene Wirchenko

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Sep 22, 2006, 3:31:39 AM9/22/06
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Adam Thornton <ad...@fsf.net> wrote:

Too concise, Adam. Pad it another 200%. Remember, he attacks
Emily Short, but that does not mean that his prose is short.

And that is <blather mode="Steve Breslin">. Either that or
"blither". That is what a blithering idiot does, right?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.

David Kinder

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Sep 22, 2006, 4:22:59 AM9/22/06
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Kevin Forchione wrote:
> Perhaps this is his attempt to extend the olive branch...

Hmmm, well, maybe. Or perhaps Steve has stopped taking his medication?

Graham Nelson

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Sep 22, 2006, 8:01:38 AM9/22/06
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steve....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Who or what sheep are you talking about?
> >
> > A rather pleasing expression borrowed into English from a French
> > proverb: it means "but I have wandered from the subject I meant to talk
> > about, and will now return". I do not think it's all that obscure in
> > either meaning or usage, but perhaps it hasn't made it to American
> > English yet.
>
> It's nice that, upon reflection, this is what you would like to have
> meant, but your claim on the expression is obviously untrue.
> Still, I appreciate the lie, if only insofar as it signs an implicit
> acknowledgement that you've been entirely got, and that your
> magalomania is quite unattractive.

Just to flesh out "the lie", the French expression I refer to is
"revenons à nos moutons", and some of its various English
borrowings may be found under meaning 3c of "sheep, n."
in the OED. The earliest appears to date from 1617, and it
would indeed appear to be a secular, pastoral comparison.

As to the attractiveness or otherwise of my megalomania,
others must decide. I claim only to be able to spell the word.

> Please note that flailing
> incompetence almost always accompanies condescension,

Demonstrably.

steve....@gmail.com

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Sep 22, 2006, 9:32:21 AM9/22/06
to
Graham Nelson wrote:
> steve....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > Who or what sheep are you talking about?
> > >
> > > A rather pleasing expression borrowed into English from a French
> > > proverb: it means "but I have wandered from the subject I meant to talk
> > > about, and will now return". I do not think it's all that obscure in
> > > either meaning or usage, but perhaps it hasn't made it to American
> > > English yet.
> >
> > It's nice that, upon reflection, this is what you would like to have
> > meant, but your claim on the expression is obviously untrue.
> > Still, I appreciate the lie, if only insofar as it signs an implicit
> > acknowledgement that you've been entirely got, and that your
> > magalomania is quite unattractive.
>
> Just to flesh out "the lie"

Oh, come off it man. You were riffing on the New Testament (very
clumsily, I would like to add) and everyone knows it. Just one sentence
before you were (very lamely) quoting John 14:2; here you're borrowing
the religious sheep/shepherd metaphor, figuring yourself the shepherd,
of course.

There's no use denying this with an even lamer reference to a French
expression which has nothing to do with sheep but mutton (as in, during
a big banquet, one might say "well, that was a nice diversion, but now
let's return to our feast").

> the French expression I refer to is
> "revenons à nos moutons", and some of its various English
> borrowings may be found under meaning 3c of "sheep, n."
> in the OED. The earliest appears to date from 1617, and it
> would indeed appear to be a secular, pastoral comparison.
>
> As to the attractiveness or otherwise of my megalomania,
> others must decide. I claim only to be able to spell the word.
>
> > Please note that flailing
> > incompetence almost always accompanies condescension,
>
> Demonstrably.

Yup.

JDC

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Sep 22, 2006, 11:02:08 AM9/22/06
to

You have missed the much more dangerous implication of Graham's
comment. Although cleverly disguied as a reference either to a French
proverb or to the New Testament, he was actually using "sheep" to refer
to a prostitute (as in "to hawk one's mutton"). A clever ruse, but we
have seen through it! Clearly he is of loose moral character, and also
so megalomaniacal as to interrupt a sexual liason to proclaim his
superiority. He sets a bad example for children and will lead to the
moral decay of the IF community. Lo, there are already rumors of
another Stiffy Makane story. Hence I encourage all upstanding citizens
to shun the man and to boycott Inform; only in this way shall we
preserve our virtue.

-JDC

Neil Cerutti

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Sep 22, 2006, 11:13:31 AM9/22/06
to
On 2006-09-22, JDC <jd...@psu.edu> wrote:
> You have missed the much more dangerous implication of
> Graham's comment. Although cleverly disguied as a reference
> either to a French proverb or to the New Testament, he was
> actually using "sheep" to refer to a prostitute (as in "to hawk
> one's mutton"). A clever ruse, but we have seen through it!
> Clearly he is of loose moral character, and also so
> megalomaniacal as to interrupt a sexual liason to proclaim his
> superiority. He sets a bad example for children and will lead
> to the moral decay of the IF community. Lo, there are already
> rumors of another Stiffy Makane story. Hence I encourage all
> upstanding citizens to shun the man and to boycott Inform; only
> in this way shall we preserve our virtue.

"Do you like being breslin?"
"It's gotta be better than the alternative."
"What's it like? It it like being a bug?"
"Like a WHAT?"
"I imagine bugs and breslin have a dim perception that nature
played a cruel trick on them, but they lack the intelligence to
really comprehend the magnitude of it."

--
Neil Cerutti

ixnay

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Sep 22, 2006, 11:19:34 AM9/22/06
to
"Neil Cerutti" <hor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:slrneh7ve9....@FIAD06.norwich.edu...

> "Do you like being breslin?"
> "It's gotta be better than the alternative."
> "What's it like? It it like being a bug?"
> "Like a WHAT?"
> "I imagine bugs and breslin have a dim perception that nature
> played a cruel trick on them, but they lack the intelligence to
> really comprehend the magnitude of it."

Okay ... I have to admit. I really liked this last bit. :)

Has anyone just thought of never responding to Breslin? I mean, he has the
right to speak. He has the right to act like he does. To me, the more silly
people seem to be the ones that continue to engage him in "debate" or
whatever it is you call it. It just fuels him.

Just leave him alone. Don't respond. Ever. He may still post here. But when
he's being totally ignored, at least then it will just seem pathetic rather
than what it is now: pathetic *and* annoying.

Maybe we could even put that in the FAQ for the site?


Jon

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 11:29:48 AM9/22/06
to
steve....@gmail.com wrote:
> There's no use denying this with an even lamer reference to a French
> expression which has nothing to do with sheep but mutton (as in, during
> a big banquet, one might say "well, that was a nice diversion, but now
> let's return to our feast").

I'm not a French speaker, but I remember my Spanish teacher warning us
about "false friends"; words that sound like the same thing but which
aren't. (The example she used involved 'embarazada' to indicate
embarrasment, when it actually indicates pregnancy.) In this case, you
seem to have seen the word 'moutons' and imagined it means 'muttons'.
However, a minute's visit to Bablefish and the French wikipedia would
indicate that you're wrong there.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouton shows pictures of live sheep rather
than dead slices thereof, and indeed, the English listing under "other
languages" links to "sheep". A trip to babelfish translates the phrase
as "let us return to our sheep", and while machine translations are not
wholly to be trusted, sometimes you just have to call a duck a duck.

> > > Please note that flailing
> > > incompetence almost always accompanies condescension,
> >
> > Demonstrably.
>
> Yup.

To continue the Biblical references, Proverbs 26:27 says "He who digs a
pit falls into it." You probably should stop digging, Mr Breslin.

Adam Thornton

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 11:45:22 AM9/22/06
to
In article <1158938988.3...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,

"Jon" <cha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> To continue the Biblical references, Proverbs 26:27 says "He who digs a
> pit falls into it." You probably should stop digging, Mr Breslin.

And let us not forget the Book of Zork and the parable of the man who
dug in the sand too many times.

Adam

Jackdaw

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 12:33:55 PM9/22/06
to

"JDC" <jd...@psu.edu> wrote in message
news:1158937328....@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...

steve....@gmail.com wrote:
> Graham Nelson wrote:
> > steve....@gmail.com wrote:

Snip

> Yup.

You have missed the much more dangerous implication of Graham's
comment. Although cleverly disguied as a reference either to a French
proverb or to the New Testament, he was actually using "sheep" to refer
to a prostitute (as in "to hawk one's mutton"). A clever ruse, but we
have seen through it! Clearly he is of loose moral character, and also
so megalomaniacal as to interrupt a sexual liason to proclaim his
superiority. He sets a bad example for children and will lead to the
moral decay of the IF community. Lo, there are already rumors of
another Stiffy Makane story.

Is there a date for the release of this?
< fx > Heavy breathing .
;Ź)

--
Jackdaw collector of junk, trivia and bright twinkly things.

Visit my gallery at www.jackdaw-crafts.co.uk


Neil Cerutti

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 12:54:48 PM9/22/06
to
On 2006-09-22, Jackdaw <dicon-...@jackdaw-crafts.co.uk> wrote:
>
> "JDC" <jd...@psu.edu> wrote in message
> news:1158937328....@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
> steve....@gmail.com wrote:
>> Graham Nelson wrote:
>> > steve....@gmail.com wrote:
> Snip
>
>> Yup.
>
> You have missed the much more dangerous implication of Graham's
> comment. Although cleverly disguied as a reference either to a French
> proverb or to the New Testament, he was actually using "sheep" to refer
> to a prostitute (as in "to hawk one's mutton"). A clever ruse, but we
> have seen through it! Clearly he is of loose moral character, and also
> so megalomaniacal as to interrupt a sexual liason to proclaim his
> superiority. He sets a bad example for children and will lead to the
> moral decay of the IF community. Lo, there are already rumors of
> another Stiffy Makane story.
>
> Is there a date for the release of this?
>< fx > Heavy breathing .
> ;¬)

I heard it's being "hard" coded to an EPROM as we speak.

--
Neil Cerutti

ChicagoDave

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 1:03:33 PM9/22/06
to
> Adam Thornton wrote:
> And let us not forget the Book of Zork and the parable of the man who
> dug in the sand too many times.

Nor shall we forget also from the Book of Zork, "He who stays on the
Frigid River Too Long, Plummets."

This in turn point us to the Book of Python on the subject of Sheep,
"They don't so much fly as they do plummet."

Baaaa - SPLAT!

David C.

Graham Nelson

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 1:03:38 PM9/22/06
to
steve....@gmail.com wrote:
> There's no use denying this with an even lamer reference to a French
> expression which has nothing to do with sheep but mutton

In French, "mouton" generally means "sheep" rather than mutton in the
English sense, though it can mean "mutton sheep", that is, a sheep
raised for food. The OED's definition under "revenons à nos moutons,
phr." is:

'Let us return to the subject': an exhortation to cease digressing.

> (as in, during
> a big banquet, one might say "well, that was a nice diversion, but now
> let's return to our feast").

An interesting but false etymology. It's actually an allusion to comic
events in the Farce de Maistre Pierre Pathelin, 1470, and none of the
English usages cited in the OED have any connotation of eating. (I
can't read the original terribly well, but the gist is that Pathelin is
an inept lawyer who defends a shepherd working for a cloth-maker.)

In short, then, the phrase I used was used correctly; did not refer to
the Lamb of God; and did not refer to mutton. When I pointed this out,
it was not "a lie", and my "claim upon the expression" was not
"obviously untrue". But I believe I will end my rebuttal against these
inexplicable charges here, lest I become a mouton enragé ("normally
calm person who becomes suddenly enraged or violent", first cited 1896).

Neil Cerutti

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 1:39:02 PM9/22/06
to
On 2006-09-22, Graham Nelson <gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In short, then, the phrase I used was used correctly; did not
> refer to the Lamb of God; and did not refer to mutton. When I
> pointed this out, it was not "a lie", and my "claim upon the
> expression" was not "obviously untrue". But I believe I will
> end my rebuttal against these inexplicable charges here, lest I
> become a mouton enragé ("normally calm person who becomes
> suddenly enraged or violent", first cited 1896).

That reminds me! _Mouton Rouge_ is one of Kidman's best films!

--
Neil Cerutti
Life is indeed precious, and I believe the death penalty helps
affirm this fact. --Edward Koch

steve....@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 1:53:14 PM9/22/06
to
Graham Nelson wrote:
> In short, then, the phrase I used was used correctly; did not refer to
> the Lamb of God; and did not refer to mutton.

You were riffing on the New Testament. In an embarassingly
megalomaniacial moment, you doubled-up the "sheep" metaphor to figure
yourself Christ (and to give your prose an aire of sophistication). And
-- your protestations are very amusing indeed, but transparently false
(and upsetting to your flock, it would seem); your original post is
there for all to see: my father's house has many rooms ... I'll return
to my flock; it just cannot be more obvious. Further groping through
the dictionary isn't going to help your case; it's just further
acknowledgement of your foolishness.

(Neither here nor there, but a quick look at the dictionary suggests
that Graham is right about the metaphorical underpinning of his French
proverb.)

> When I pointed this out,
> it was not "a lie", and my "claim upon the expression" was not
> "obviously untrue". But I believe I will end my rebuttal against these
> inexplicable charges here, lest I become a mouton enragé ("normally
> calm person who becomes suddenly enraged or violent", first cited 1896).

Or, if you don't like "angry sheep," maybe something more like, "don
caught masturbating in public (again)" or so. Not sure what's the
French for that one.... Got a dictionary handy Don?

Stephen Granade

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 2:04:42 PM9/22/06
to
steve....@gmail.com writes:

> You were riffing on the New Testament. In an embarassingly
> megalomaniacial moment,

> (and to give your prose an aire of sophistication)

> Got a dictionary handy Don?

If so, Graham, may I suggest that you loan it out?

Stephen

--
Stephen Granade
stephen...@granades.com

Gene Wirchenko

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 3:20:36 PM9/22/06
to
"ixnay" <n...@no.com> wrote:

Yes, but by responding as we are now doing, we can be amused.
Turning the tables is fun. Oh, some day, I may truly be charming --
Thanks, Adam -- but I can still show steel.

He can whine about ad hom if he wants. I say that he has been
eagerly stirring the shit bucket for months, and now, some of us are
for dumping it on him.

>Maybe we could even put that in the FAQ for the site?

"Make your next newsgroup fool a Breslin."

Neil Cerutti

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 3:26:05 PM9/22/06
to
On 2006-09-22, Gene Wirchenko <ge...@ocis.net> wrote:
> He can whine about ad hom if he wants. I say that he has been
> eagerly stirring the shit bucket for months, and now, some of
> us are for dumping it on him.
>
>>Maybe we could even put that in the FAQ for the site?
>
> "Make your next newsgroup fool a Breslin."

I declare Gene president of G.R.O.S.S: Get Rid of Slimy breSlin.
I'm First Tiger.

Graham Nelson

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 4:57:48 PM9/22/06
to
steve....@gmail.com wrote:
> Further groping through
> the dictionary isn't going to help your case; it's just further
> acknowledgement of your foolishness.

You asked what I meant by a given expression and I gave the explanation
you asked for, but you called it a "lie". So I provided evidence that
the expression did indeed mean that. Since you would not accept this,
for a variety of reasons (to do with the exhaustion of the pastoral,
the ubiquity of the Bible, and the supposed meaning of "mouton"), I
posted verbatim evidence. That's the only case I am arguing here, and
you now concede it:

> (Neither here nor there, but a quick look at the dictionary suggests
> that Graham is right about the metaphorical underpinning of his French
> proverb.)

Thus what you called a "lie" was true, and you had no basis for
suggesting otherwise. Quite why you chose to make an issue of the
question of whether or not a French expression referred to wandering
sheep, I really have no idea, but you evidently decided this was
important enough to call somebody else a liar over it. Perhaps you
would now like to apologise.

Gene Wirchenko

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 6:07:17 PM9/22/06
to
Neil Cerutti <hor...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 2006-09-22, Gene Wirchenko <ge...@ocis.net> wrote:
>> He can whine about ad hom if he wants. I say that he has been
>> eagerly stirring the shit bucket for months, and now, some of
>> us are for dumping it on him.
>>
>>>Maybe we could even put that in the FAQ for the site?
>>
>> "Make your next newsgroup fool a Breslin."
>
>I declare Gene president of G.R.O.S.S: Get Rid of Slimy breSlin.
>I'm First Tiger.

Tigers are neat.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Supreme Dictator for Life

Adam Thornton

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 6:32:07 PM9/22/06
to
In article <mcu02zh...@sargent.dyndns.org>,

Stephen Granade <stephen...@granades.com> wrote:

> If so, Graham, may I suggest that you loan it out?

"'Lend it out,' he gritted through clenched teeth. 'To loan is not a
verb.'"

Adam

Adam Thornton

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 6:33:38 PM9/22/06
to
In article <ef139n$c3q$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>,
"Jackdaw" <dicon-...@jackdaw-crafts.co.uk> wrote:

> "JDC" <jd...@psu.edu> wrote


> > Lo, there are already rumors of
> > another Stiffy Makane story.
>
> Is there a date for the release of this?
> < fx > Heavy breathing .

> ;¬)

No date has been announced. It is safe to say that it is not one of
this year's IF-Comp games, though.

At least, not from *this* author.

Adam

Adam Thornton

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 6:35:59 PM9/22/06
to
In article <slrneh85c5...@FIAD06.norwich.edu>,

Neil Cerutti <hor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I heard it's being "hard" coded to an EPROM as we speak.

Even I would be embarrassed about taking credit for something that's
evidently just Beat 'Em and Eat 'Em with a few minor sprite changes.

Adam

steve....@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 7:17:38 PM9/22/06
to
Graham Nelson wrote:
> steve....@gmail.com wrote:
> > Further groping through
> > the dictionary isn't going to help your case; it's just further
> > acknowledgement of your foolishness.
>
> You asked what I meant by a given expression and I gave the explanation
> you asked for, but you called it a "lie".

Yes, and you're sticking with it! Good for you! Good for us all, I
would say.

(You lapped "doth protest too much" two posts ago.)

The more ridiculous you make yourself look, sticking to this totally
obvious lie, worming away with transparent diversions, the clearer to
all is your folly and your bad conscience.

I identified you riffing on the New Testament, with the condescension
and patronizing false-magnanimity of Inform's Christlike Shepherd. One
doesn't go to the trouble of calling oneself a shepherd while alluding
to the New Testament, unless one is trying to capitalize on the
Christian metaphor. Your lie is that your figure was exclusive to an
accidental, unrelated, secular shepherd. (Pretending that I accused you
of lying on other grounds is just another hopeless wiggle.)

Till you're blue in the face you'll be trying to change the subject, or
claiming "I was only scratching an itch," but you got caught vigorously
masterbating (yet again), plain as day.

Adam Thornton

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 7:32:11 PM9/22/06
to
In article <1158967058.6...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
steve....@gmail.com wrote:
> vigorously masterbating (yet again)

You spelled "masturbating" correctly the previous time.

I think your medical situation is deteriorating and it's taking your
brain function with it. You might wish to seek aid.

Adam

James Mitchelhill

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 7:43:55 PM9/22/06
to
On 22 Sep 2006 16:17:38 -0700, steve....@gmail.com wrote:

> The more ridiculous you make yourself look, sticking to this totally
> obvious lie, worming away with transparent diversions, the clearer to
> all is your folly and your bad conscience.

Who's this "all" Steve? Do the lurkers support you in email?

I don't mind your pathetic attacks on Graham, which are at least
transiently amusing, but claiming to be opening up everyone's benighted
eyes to the awful truth is a bit... well... magalomaniacal.

--
James Mitchelhill
ja...@disorderfeed.net
http://disorderfeed.net

ChicagoDave

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 8:35:33 PM9/22/06
to
> steve....@gmail.com wrote:
> Yes, and you're sticking with it! Good for you! Good for us all, I
> would say.

I figured you out you clever old Cat.
You tried this now twice, both times with your Hat.
I see your mechanations, your mischievous pose.
You think we're all morons, we're all dolts I suppose.

But no more will you bother us with your games that you play.
For we are united and have one important thing to say.

Please leave us now, take your Hat too.
We don't need any of your kind in our Igloo.

Although it is true I have heard of a cure.
It's not in your Hat and it takes balls to persue.
If you get laid, you might learn to unwind.
You might unravel that ego and learn to be kind.
You might even take comfort in discourse with friends.

But I suspect you know this, you clever old cat.

The problem with you is

No one will have anything to do with your tiny little bat.

David C.

steve....@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 9:13:29 PM9/22/06
to

Adam Thornton wrote:
> In article <1158967058.6...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> steve....@gmail.com wrote:
> > vigorously masterbating (yet again)
>
> You spelled "masturbating" correctly the previous time.

Aw, it's sweet coming from you, but I would much prefer Graham
correcting that particular typo. Something like, "The attractiveness
[thrust] of my masturbating [thrust] I shall leave for others to
determine [double-pump]. I only claim [thrust] is that I can spell
[thrust] the word [thrust] correctly [splat]." -- or somesuch, you get
the idea I'm sure.

> I think your medical situation is deteriorating and it's taking your
> brain function with it. You might wish to seek aid.

Brez off his meds, eh? Well this is probably some figment of my lunacy,
but I think our group is pretty rare for not unanimously laughing doc
ox off stage long ago. In most social contexts, superiority and
condescension are not so well tolerated. I wonder what it is about this
group that some members happily suffer, even defend, such foolishness.
I get that he wrote Inform, and some people this feel they're forever
indebted to him (or so), but I wonder if there's something more.

IF is not an inescapably pretentious literary genre, but it has at
least one strong tendency in that direction. (Plotkin has remarked this
more intelligently (and less judgmentally) than I can.) Of course I get
that nobody likes an asshole, but to think that the asshole is not the
pretender, but is rather the person who stands and says "this pretender
is talking down to us" -- I suspect that in that case, pretention and
condescension is a strange interest, almost something to be celebrated.
It may just be the "emperor's new clothes" situation, but I think it's
more specific than that; that it's related to the history and state of
the genre which has at least nominally attracted readers here.
Certainly this is all too complicated for me, but I hope you get the
drift of my thought.

Nathan

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 9:32:25 PM9/22/06
to
steve....@gmail.com wrote:

> IF is not an inescapably pretentious literary genre, but it has at
> least one strong tendency in that direction. (Plotkin has remarked this
> more intelligently (and less judgmentally) than I can.) Of course I get
> that nobody likes an asshole, but to think that the asshole is not the
> pretender, but is rather the person who stands and says "this pretender
> is talking down to us" -- I suspect that in that case, pretention and
> condescension is a strange interest, almost something to be celebrated.

You are Jacek Pudlo, and I claim my five pounds.

Adam Thornton

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 10:21:46 PM9/22/06
to
In article <1158974009.8...@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
steve....@gmail.com wrote:

> Adam Thornton wrote:
> Something like, "The attractiveness
> [thrust] of my masturbating [thrust] I shall leave for others to
> determine [double-pump]. I only claim [thrust] is that I can spell
> [thrust] the word [thrust] correctly [splat]." -- or somesuch, you get
> the idea I'm sure.

Oh, indeed I do. You certainly do seem fascinated by the mental image
of Graham masturbating.

> I wonder what it is about this
> group that some members happily suffer, even defend, such foolishness.
> I get that he wrote Inform, and some people this feel they're forever
> indebted to him (or so), but I wonder if there's something more.

Well, you mean, other than we all want to fellate him, and then pull a
Deep-Purple-Groupie with a turkey baster, and bear his children, anally
if necessary? Because, other than that, nah, I don't think so.

> IF is not an inescapably pretentious literary genre, but it has at
> least one strong tendency in that direction. (Plotkin has remarked this
> more intelligently (and less judgmentally) than I can.) Of course I get
> that nobody likes an asshole, but to think that the asshole is not the
> pretender, but is rather the person who stands and says "this pretender
> is talking down to us" -- I suspect that in that case, pretention and
> condescension is a strange interest, almost something to be celebrated.
> It may just be the "emperor's new clothes" situation, but I think it's
> more specific than that; that it's related to the history and state of
> the genre which has at least nominally attracted readers here.
> Certainly this is all too complicated for me, but I hope you get the
> drift of my thought.

And again, I do, but I have very sad news for you. Jacek Pudlo has
wondered just this, but far more articulately, and far more
entertainingly, than you do. And on top of that, he's written brilliant
IF, and is--I'm not afraid to say it in public--the very best beta
tester I've ever had. And you, sir, are no Jacek Pudlo.

I can, however, say with little fear of contradiction, that if
faux-sophisticated literary pretension makes you break out in hives,
then you'd be well-advised to stock up on Benadryl before you play my
work in progress, when it's released.

I'll give you "Doc Ox," though. That was worth a small chortle. If
only you could parlay that into some hideous metaphor involving the New
Testament and tentacle hentai.

Adam

Adam Thornton

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 10:25:51 PM9/22/06
to
In article <1158975145.6...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"Nathan" <nts...@netscape.net> wrote:

See, I don't think so, and here's why:

Jacek clearly knows I6 quite well. He's very good at it.

Steve clearly knows T3 *very* well. He's excellent at it, and is quite
active in T3 discussions.

If Jacek is obsessive enough to maintain two separate net.kook
personalities, both of whom are highly competent in their languages of
choice, and both of whom pretend ignorance of the other language...well,
I would be very very surprised. That would reveal a truly startling
level of dedication to the craft.

I could be wrong; if I am, I have been masterfully trolled.

Adam

Nikos Chantziaras

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 10:41:23 PM9/22/06
to
Adam Thornton wrote:
> [...]

> Well, you mean, other than we all want to fellate him, and then pull a
> Deep-Purple-Groupie with a turkey baster, and bear his children, anally
> if necessary?

Can I have a link to where you download your porn from? Thanks in
advance. :)

Adam Thornton

unread,
Sep 22, 2006, 11:31:10 PM9/22/06
to
In article <ef26si$oo7$2...@mouse.otenet.gr>,
Nikos Chantziaras <rea...@arcor.de> wrote:

Oh, I just use the Hun, like everybody else. Sorry.

Adam

John DeBerry

unread,
Sep 23, 2006, 12:15:21 AM9/23/06
to
On 2006-09-22 10:19:34 -0500, "ixnay" <n...@no.com> said:

> Just leave him alone. Don't respond. Ever. He may still post here. But
> when he's being totally ignored, at least then it will just seem
> pathetic rather than what it is now: pathetic *and* annoying.

This is a good idea. He is seeking attention, and even negative
attention is attention. It's like your child throwing a tantrum. It's
to manipulate you, get your attention, and get you to do something. The
best thing to do is to disengage or leave the room.

Therefore, I choose not to respond to him any more. He never listens to
us or anyone anyway.

John DeBerry

unread,
Sep 23, 2006, 12:16:52 AM9/23/06
to
On 2006-09-15 20:58:38 -0500, "Mike Roberts" <mj...@hotmail.com> said:

> I'm pleased to announce the first TADS 3 General Release, and also a TADS 2
> maintenance update.

Congratulations on a job well done!

John

Gene Wirchenko

unread,
Sep 23, 2006, 1:19:22 AM9/23/06
to
Adam Thornton <ad...@fsf.net> wrote:

>In article <mcu02zh...@sargent.dyndns.org>,
> Stephen Granade <stephen...@granades.com> wrote:
>
>> If so, Graham, may I suggest that you loan it out?

The top entry so far in the Graham Nelson Imitation Contest:

>"'Lend it out,' he gritted through clenched teeth. 'To loan is not a
>verb.'"

Keep those entries coming, folks!

In related news, the Steve Breslin Imitation Contest has been
cancelled. No judges could found with sufficently strong stomachs.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Gene Wirchenko

unread,
Sep 23, 2006, 4:41:46 AM9/23/06
to
Nikos Chantziaras <rea...@arcor.de> wrote:

It is very difficult to get me to LOL to a USENET post, but you
did so wonderfully.

Does Precious Breslin make a good straight man?

Graham Nelson

unread,
Sep 23, 2006, 4:53:51 AM9/23/06
to
steve....@gmail.com wrote:
> The more ridiculous you make yourself look, sticking to this totally
> obvious lie, worming away with transparent diversions, the clearer to
> all is your folly and your bad conscience.

and then...

> I identified you riffing on the New Testament, with the condescension
> and patronizing false-magnanimity of Inform's Christlike Shepherd.

and then...

> Till you're blue in the face you'll be trying to change the subject, or
> claiming &