Warning messages: good? bad?
Adam Cadre
I'm preparing the big final Release 3 of "I-0", and find myself in
a double bind. After Release 1, I received the following message:
> Perhaps you should put in a warning in the startup screen that the
> game isn't suitable for children. There seem to be quite a few
> children playing text adventures, and you wouldn't want some angry
> father calling you and complaining that his 10-year-old daughter's
> been playing a game where she got raped, would you? :-)
This seemed reasonable, and there was a precedent in LEATHER
GODDESSES, so I went ahead and tacked the following to the beginning
of Release 2:
> Warning: this game may not be suitable for some children. Then again,
> it may not be suitable for some adults either. The crucial test is
> this: if you try to do something ribald, how would you like the game
> to respond? If you said, "Why, it should act offended and refuse! How
> dare the player attempt such improper input!", then this might not be
> the game for you. Otherwise, feel free to continue... and have fun!
This prompted the following response from someone else:
> I don't like the warning at the beginning of version 2. I mean, I like
> the warning just fine, but I don't like that there *is* a warning --
> it simultaneously makes it too likely for a player to try doing sexual
> things, and takes away from the excitement when you discover that you
> can do sexual things.
This also made a lot of sense. So now I'm of two minds about whether
to leave the warning in for Release 3. What do you think? This isn't
a poll, necessarily, but I'd very much appreciate any thoughts on the
matter: both as it relates to "I-0", and in general.
-----
Adam Cadre, Durham, NC
http://www.duke.edu/~adamc
Julian Arnold
In article <330700...@acpub.duke.edu>, Adam Cadre
<URL:mailto:ad...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>
> [...]
> > Perhaps you should put in a warning in the startup screen that the
> > game isn't suitable for children. There seem to be quite a few
> > children playing text adventures, and you wouldn't want some angry
> > father calling you and complaining that his 10-year-old daughter's
> > been playing a game where she got raped, would you? :-)
>
> > Warning: this game may not be suitable for some children. Then again,
> > it may not be suitable for some adults either. The crucial test is
> > this: if you try to do something ribald, how would you like the game
> > to respond? If you said, "Why, it should act offended and refuse! How
> > dare the player attempt such improper input!", then this might not be
> > the game for you. Otherwise, feel free to continue... and have fun!
>
> > I don't like the warning at the beginning of version 2. I mean, I like
> > the warning just fine, but I don't like that there *is* a warning --
> > it simultaneously makes it too likely for a player to try doing sexual
> > things, and takes away from the excitement when you discover that you
> > can do sexual things.
>
> This also made a lot of sense. So now I'm of two minds about whether
> to leave the warning in for Release 3. What do you think? This isn't
> a poll, necessarily, but I'd very much appreciate any thoughts on the
> matter: both as it relates to "I-0", and in general.
This sort of came up a little while ago. There was no consensus then.
I tend to think yes, some things are unsuitable for children under a
certain level of maturity, which is most easily generalized by picking
on their age. I am not saying that they'll be warped for life if they
watch "NBK" at age 9, but more that there's no reason to expose them to
certain levels of violence, sexuality, etc. when they are likely not to
be emotionally equipped to deal with them/appreciate them.
I agree with both the people who wrote to you. I guess the first point
(there should be a warning) must outweigh the second. OTOH a warning is
not going to stop any child from playing the game. It's more likely
they'll read it and say "ooh, must play." :) The only real purpose a
warning like this serves is to warn a parent that s/he might not want
her/his child to play the game.
For this reason it might be better to have some kind of a list of
ratings/warnings somewhere, separate from the games. Then, parents can
look at this list and censor to their heart's content, but other
player's don't have to have the game spoiled by the warning. Such a
list is of course useless if the child d/l the game, but then so is an
in-game warning.
Jools
--
"For small erections may be finished by their first architects; grand
ones, true ones, ever leave the copestone to posterity. God keep me
from ever completing anything." -- Herman Melville, "Moby Dick"
Richard Stamp
In article <330700...@acpub.duke.edu>,
Adam Cadre <ad...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>I'm preparing the big final Release 3 of "I-0", and find myself in
>a double bind. After Release 1, I received the following message:
>
>> game isn't suitable for children.
>
>
>> I don't like the warning at the beginning of version 2. I mean, I like
>> the warning just fine, but I don't like that there *is* a warning --
>> it simultaneously makes it too likely for a player to try doing sexual
>> things, and takes away from the excitement when you discover that you
>> can do sexual things.
Well, you asked for opinions, so here's mine:
For what it's worth, I think a warning is advisable, since it isn't
immediately obvious that the game is going to have "adult" content.
I think it's important to remember that the player can stumble into
the rape scene without entering any ribald commands themselves, so
there is a genuine risk of less-aware youngsters encountering some
inappropriately adult concepts here.
It's also worth noting that I know some adults who would probably
have been embarrassed or offended by the rape scene (this does not
reflect in any way on the way it was written).
On the other hand, you don't want to make the warning too strident.
I wouldn't have played I-0 if I'd thought it was stuffed with
innuendo and/or graphic sex scenes, because I just don't like reading
that sort of thing. That would have been a shame, because I'd have
missed out on a great game and the sexual content is actually very
wittily and discreetly done.
I also agree that it's good to keep the more ribald aspects of the
game hidden at the start. I didn't realise they were there
until I read the note on the present at the end, and it was great
fun going back to discover the hidden responses.
With all this in mind, my preference would be for a bland general
warning along the lines of
Certain paths through I-0 have adult content and may not be
suitable for children.
I don't think this spoils any of the surprises -- I'd guess that most
people would come quite quickly on the hitchhiking scene and think
"Ah, so that's what he means". But I think it's an adequate warning.
If you felt the need to be more explicit you could add something like
If you would like to know more about this, type PARENTS
to see a longer explanation (which contains some spoilers).
...with the command PARENTS bringing up the full warning you
had before.
Er, this has turned out longer than I meant it to be, and reading over
it, it sounds a bit like I'm trying to tell you what to do. It's only
meant to be a suggestion, of course. I hope you find the comments helpful.
Richard
Admiral Jota
[Adam Cadre asked if people thought I-0 should have a warning at the
start.]
>Well, you asked for opinions, so here's mine:
[Richard thinks there should be some warning, but notes that too specific
a warning course affect players' perceptions of the game, or could give
away spoilers.]
>With all this in mind, my preference would be for a bland general
>warning along the lines of
> Certain paths through I-0 have adult content and may not be
> suitable for children.
>I don't think this spoils any of the surprises -- I'd guess that most
>people would come quite quickly on the hitchhiking scene and think
>"Ah, so that's what he means". But I think it's an adequate warning.
>If you felt the need to be more explicit you could add something like
> If you would like to know more about this, type PARENTS
> to see a longer explanation (which contains some spoilers).
>...with the command PARENTS bringing up the full warning you
>had before.
I agree with what you're saying, but I think I'd make one small
modification to your warning:
Certain paths through I-0 have adult or violent content and may
not be suitable for children.
I tihnk that if the warning is phrased this way, it won't be quite so
obvious that the objectionable material is sexual, and so the player won't
be as likely to be spoiled about the 'fun' sexual content of the game.
Another useful aspect of this version of the disclaimer is that it's more
informative to a parent, because there are some parents who wouldn't mind
their kids playing LGoP on lewd mode, but wouldn't want their kids to play
through a rape scene.
--
/<-= Admiral Jota =->\
-< <-= jo...@tiac.net =-> >-
\<-=- -= -=- -= -=->/
Florian Beck
Adam Cadre <ad...@acpub.duke.edu> writes:
> I'm preparing the big final Release 3 of "I-0", and find myself in
> a double bind. After Release 1, I received the following message:
>
> > Perhaps you should put in a warning in the startup screen that the
> > game isn't suitable for children. There seem to be quite a few
You are really considering this, do you?
A warning presupposes danger.
This is art.
Ergo: Don't do it.
Come on, what's next? No more equations because non-mathematicians get
brain-damage?
--
Flo
Clyde Sloniker
Florian Beck wrote, regarging a warning of 'mature content' in "I-0"...
>You are really considering this, do you?
>
>A warning presupposes danger.
>This is art.
>Ergo: Don't do it.
>
>Come on, what's next? No more equations because non-mathematicians get
>brain-damage?
(I must not flame. Flame is the mind-killer. Flame is the little death
that brings total oblivion...)
He's not talking about taking out the sexual content. He's talking about
warning people who might be offended that the game contains material that
might be inappropriate for the closed-minded. I think this is a Good
Thing, but he is of course free to leave out that warning if he wants...
keeping in mind, though, that someone who could be offended by the
possible subject matter could well stumble across it without taking any
risque actions themselves, as he's stated. You may think that this is a
Good Thing. Apparently my high school film art teacher did, because he
promised me he'd warn me when the nude scene in "Slaughterhouse Five" came
up, then didn't, then fed me some line of BS about it being no big deal.
Which leaves me even today pissed at him for being a word-breaker and a
pervert...
[You are succumbing to the Dark Side. Your blood pressure has just gone
up.]
I think that a warning at the beginning of "I-0" would be appropriate.
I think the auther has the right not to use one if he doesn't want to.
I think a lot of other things, but I'm going to shut up now.
Drone
Clyde Sloniker wrote:
>
> risque actions themselves, as he's stated. You may think that this is a
> Good Thing. Apparently my high school film art teacher did, because he
> promised me he'd warn me when the nude scene in "Slaughterhouse Five" came
> up, then didn't, then fed me some line of BS about it being no big deal.
> Which leaves me even today pissed at him for being a word-breaker and a
> pervert...
>
Let me get this straight. Your high school film art teacher is a "pervert"
because he has a liberal view toward nudity in art films?
I see. <Nodding, glassy-eyed.>
Drone.
--
"Esse est percipi."
foxg...@globalserve.net
Clyde Sloniker
Drone <foxg...@globalserve.net> wrote:
>Let me get this straight. Your high school film art teacher is a "pervert"
>because he has a liberal view toward nudity in art films?
>
>I see. <Nodding, glassy-eyed.>
(closing eyes, imagining huge flame fest coming) I knew posting that was
a mistake. I knew posting that was a mistake. I knew posting that was a
mistake. I knew posting that was a mistake. I knew posting that...
Andrew Plotkin
Clyde Sloniker (pu...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
> (closing eyes, imagining huge flame fest coming) I knew posting that was
> a mistake. I knew posting that was a mistake. I knew posting that was a
> mistake. I knew posting that was a mistake. I knew posting that...
Yeah, I could have told you that. :-) You, too, Drone (whose quote I
deleted in the interest of delaying the flames.)
There *is* sort of a double standard here, which I regret. Novels and
short stories can have violent or sexual content (or vulgarity,
obscenity, blasphemy, etc, to refer back to an earlier thread.) Nobody
expects these things to be absent unless the book says "juvenile" on the
spine, or some equivalent mark.
Whereas with games, there's this feeling that the primary market is kids.
Which is not surprising -- for most kinds of games, the primary market
*is* kids. But this has not been true of IF in recent years. I mean, if
someone has gone through the larger TADS/Inform games, Jigsaw and Curses
and Legend and So Far and LNY and so on, they would not get the idea that
this is a "juvenile" readership that we're aiming at.
As my own little contribution towards a "mature-audience" assumption for
text IF, I do not put such warnings on my games. Of course I haven't
written a game with sex in it, yet.
(As my own little contribution towards peace, I don't try to argue other
people into removing such warnings. :-) It's up to you.)
Sometimes I really wish IF had book covers. All IF, I mean (nothing
against Neil dM's manual cover for LNY.) Cover art would make so much of
this information immediately obvious.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Admiral Jota
Drone <foxg...@globalserve.net> writes:
>Clyde Sloniker wrote:
>> Apparently my high school film art teacher did, because he promised me
>> he'd warn me when the nude scene in "Slaughterhouse Five" came up, then
>> didn't, then fed me some line of BS about it being no big deal. Which
>> leaves me even today pissed at him for being a word-breaker and a
>> pervert...
>Let me get this straight. Your high school film art teacher is a "pervert"
>because he has a liberal view toward nudity in art films?
>I see. <Nodding, glassy-eyed.>
Actually, it looked to me that the teacher was a pervert because he
intentionally tricked an underaged high school student into watching a
nude scene *he didn't want to see*.
You don't see anything wrong with that? Nowadays, he could be sued for
sexual harrassment. Really, though, it sounds like he was just a jerk, a
word-breaker, and a pervert.
Magnus Olsson
In article <330700...@acpub.duke.edu>,
Adam Cadre <ad...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>I'm preparing the big final Release 3 of "I-0", and find myself in
>a double bind. After Release 1, I received the following message:
>
>> Perhaps you should put in a warning in the startup screen that the
>> game isn't suitable for children. There seem to be quite a few
>> father calling you and complaining that his 10-year-old daughter's
>> been playing a game where she got raped, would you? :-)
>
>GODDESSES, so I went ahead and tacked the following to the beginning
>of Release 2:
>
>> it may not be suitable for some adults either. The crucial test is
>> this: if you try to do something ribald, how would you like the game
>> to respond? If you said, "Why, it should act offended and refuse! How
>> dare the player attempt such improper input!", then this might not be
>> the game for you. Otherwise, feel free to continue... and have fun!
>
>
>> the warning just fine, but I don't like that there *is* a warning --
>> it simultaneously makes it too likely for a player to try doing sexual
>> things, and takes away from the excitement when you discover that you
>> can do sexual things.
>
>to leave the warning in for Release 3. What do you think?
Let me start by saying that it was I who wrote the first comment above
(urging Adam to add the warning).
Let me then hasten to add that I don't think that children need to be
"protected" from topics such as sex and violence in general. I do
think that there are works that aren't suitable for children, for
various reasons, either because the children don't have the frames of
reference needed to understand them, or because some things that seem
quite harmless to adults can be very scary indeed to children.
In the case of I-0, I don't think the sex in I-0 would be in any way
"dangerous" for children (in fact, I think children of certain age may
find it funny to let Tracy run around naked and do naughty things -
things they are certainly not allowed to do themselves. I suspect most
adults find that aspect of I-0 funny as well.).
On the other hand, I think the rape scene (and the need to resort to
graphic violence to avoid being raped) *might* be scary to a
child. This says something, I suppose, about my cultural bias (since
I'm from a country that censors violence but not sex in movies).
One observation I've made is that many parents consider text
adventures to be suitable for children. Historically, the sex and
violence that appears in IF has been very tame (usually on the level
of isolated rude words "animals getting hurt" (to quote the advisory
text on my "Infocom Masterpieces" box) and the player being killed of
in a painless and stylized way. In contrast, arcade games have a
tradition of bing extremely violent.) and I think many people still
assume this to be the case.
Anyway, IMHO a parent doesn't have to be particularly closed-minded to
react negatively when he or she finds out that his/her child has been
playing a game that was assumed to be totally "harmless" but turned
out to contain a violent rape scene.
And then there are, of course, the really closed-minded people, the
bigots who'll raise hell if they find even a hint of nudity in something
aimed at children.
To summarize, if you don't put a warning on a game, people will assume
it's aimed at children (games are for kids, right?) and there's a risk
that they'll be mightily pissed when they realize that it isn't. I
wouldn't take that risk if I were you.
As for the concern that the current warning hints at ribald content, and
that this spoils part of the fun, I see the point. But if the wording
of the warning is changed, for example to just "Some parts of this game
may not be suitable for children" you'll at least reduce that risk.
--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se, zeb...@pobox.com)
Magnus Olsson
In article <m3pvy0m...@ue801di.lrz-muenchen.de>,
Florian Beck <floria...@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
>Adam Cadre <ad...@acpub.duke.edu> writes:
>
>> I'm preparing the big final Release 3 of "I-0", and find myself in
>> a double bind. After Release 1, I received the following message:
>>
>> > Perhaps you should put in a warning in the startup screen that the
>> > game isn't suitable for children. There seem to be quite a few
>
>
>A warning presupposes danger.
>This is art.
>Ergo: Don't do it.
The problem here is that most people don't regard IF as art, but as games,
and a kind of game that is particularly suited for (older) children. These
people don't expect their children to be submitted to "virtual rape".
The danger exists: some irate parent may raise hell over the issue, maybe
call for censorship and whatnot.
Perhaps the warning text should be "Warning: this is a piece of art, not
a family game".
>Come on, what's next? No more equations because non-mathematicians get
>brain-damage?
The difference is that books containing equations are usually easily
recognizable as such. People don't buy a calculus textbook expecting
it to contain nursery rhymes.
mathew
In article <330700...@acpub.duke.edu>, ad...@acpub.duke.edu wrote:
> This also made a lot of sense. So now I'm of two minds about whether
> to leave the warning in for Release 3. What do you think?
How about:
NOTE: This game may display textual descriptions of violent or sexual acts.
I like it because
1. it's purely factual, with no value judgements,
2. it draws a clear distinction between sex and violence,
3. it gives minimal spoilers to the reader, and
4. it won't lead naïve parents to think that the game's suddenly going to
display images.
mathew
--
http://www.pobox.com/~meta/
Neil deMause
mathew (me...@pobox.com) wrote:
: How about:
: NOTE: This game may display textual descriptions of violent or sexual acts.
The thing that gets me about all this is that the "virtual rape" scene
in I-0 isn't graphic at all. (It all happens "off-screen", in fact.)
Given all the games in which you can die a horrible death by one means or
another, I think most authors would have to put in warning messages on
these grounds. Lost New York contains the potential for at least three
violent deaths, including a hanging, as well as several racial slurs --
should I have to put a warning on there, too? Or is there something special
about the word "rape" that makes it less suitable for children than other
forms of violence?
Neil
Matthew Amster-Burton
m...@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) wrote:
>The danger exists: some irate parent may raise hell over the issue, maybe
>call for censorship and whatnot.
Frankly, I think I public call for censorship of IF would be pretty
damn exciting. It would certainly increase the size of our community,
just as Bill Bennett is selling Marilyn Manson's albums.
There is nothing in any piece of IF I've ever played that's any more
graphic than, say, a Christopher Pike novel. Better written, yes, but
not more graphic. A little nakedness here, a little violence there, a
few naughty words...big fuckin' deal. There are real problems in the
world, you know.
Hmm...must be the end of a three-day weekend or something.
Matthew
Matthew Amster-Burton
m...@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) wrote:
>To summarize, if you don't put a warning on a game, people will assume
>it's aimed at children (games are for kids, right?) and there's a risk
>that they'll be mightily pissed when they realize that it isn't. I
>wouldn't take that risk if I were you.
Isn't "I-0" subtitled "The Jailbait on the Interstate Game" or
similar? Exactly who among the literate is going to mistake this for
a children's game?
Matthew
Matthew Amster-Burton
me...@pobox.com (mathew) wrote:
>How about:
>
>NOTE: This game may display textual descriptions of violent or sexual acts.
>I like it because
>1. it's purely factual, with no value judgements,
Not true. It professes the value that such a warning is necessary.
Should we put this on every game, or only those that actually *do*
display such descriptions?
>2. it draws a clear distinction between sex and violence,
No it doesn't: it equates them. We've had this discussion before, I
know, but I find it stupefying that films and games with graphic
violence are considered fun for kids, while sex is off-limits. Which
of these activities do we want our children to participate in, anyway?
Sometimes its a wonder our species continues to reproduce. (Sorry for
my very American perspective here.)
>3. it gives minimal spoilers to the reader, and
Again, only if it's on every game.
>4. it won't lead naïve parents to think that the game's suddenly going to
>display images.
Well, that's a good point.
Matthew
Magnus Olsson
Neil K.
In article <5eda18$k...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>, rg...@cam.ac.uk (Richard Stamp)
wrote:
> I've never heard the expression "jailbait". This may be (a) because
> I'm British or (b) because I lead an extraordinarily sheltered life,
> but it's certainly not because I'm illiterate. :-)
I suspect a), as I think it's an American expression. (it's a nastily
predatory concept that refers to statutory rape for those interested)
- Neil K. Guy
--
t e l a computer consulting + design * Vancouver, BC, Canada
web: http://www.tela.bc.ca/tela/ * email: tela @ tela.bc.ca
Richard Stamp
In article <3309e26b...@news.u.washington.edu>,
Matthew Amster-Burton <mam...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>Isn't "I-0" subtitled "The Jailbait on the Interstate Game" or
>similar? Exactly who among the literate is going to mistake this for
>a children's game?
I've never heard the expression "jailbait". This may be (a) because
I'm British or (b) because I lead an extraordinarily sheltered life,
but it's certainly not because I'm illiterate. :-)
(On the subject of being British, three cheers to Adam Cadre for
programming responses to "open bonnet" and the like. And an extra
cheer for making them funny.)
Scott Blomquist
I realize that this is a horrible way to go about this, but what is
I-0's author's email address?
Thanks.
Scott Blomquist <while donning asbestos underwear>
--
__
/ \ __ _ _|__|_ Scott Blomquist KC5WJN
`--./ / \ | | mailto:sblo...@umr.edu
\__/\__\_/ | | http://www.umr.edu/~sblomqui/
Neil K.
Of course, the extent of the warning question goes beyond the ol' sax and
violins question, I think. Dave Baggett's "Legend" contains the warning
"Recommended for mature readers only" at startup. I was never quite sure
why he put that in... was he trying to stress that it wasn't an easy game
playable by kids? Was it because of the Watchmaker and Timon Sketch's use
of the word "fuck"?
Like Magnus and Matthew, I'm rather concerned about the way warning
messages equate sex and violence as "bad" things. And I'd have to say I
think of language much the same way - particularly with regards to textual
fiction. Kids old enough to read IF and not find it incredibly boring (no
pictures!) are going to have heard a hell of a lot more naughty words in
the playground than on their computer screen.
My game in progress (here we go again) contains such language, because
that's how people speak in real life. It also contains references to
same-sex relationships, which is guaranteed to offend some people. However
it has no sexual content and relatively little violence.
I've considered the issue of whether I should include something by way of
a notice. I'm leaning towards putting nothing, since I take the view that
it should be viewed as a short story or novel or somesuch. And as far as
I'm concerned if someone is offended by the idea of a same-sex relationship
that's their damned problem, not mine. Putting in a label warning
essentially succumbs to the view that same-sex relationships are bad and
thus people should be warned about them.
- Neil K.
Laurel Halbany
pu...@u.washington.edu (Clyde Sloniker) wrote:
>He's not talking about taking out the sexual content. He's talking about
>warning people who might be offended that the game contains material that
>might be inappropriate for the closed-minded.
Just about every I-F game has some of that, I think. What good would a
warning do? I mean, if the title "Jailbait on Interstate Zero" isn't a
clue-by-four, I don't know what is.
----------------------------------------------------------
Laurel Halbany
myt...@agora.rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/users/mythago/
they got purple; purple's a fruit
And behold, Matthew Amster-Burton <mam...@u.washington.edu> did spake, speaking:
> m...@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) wrote:
>
> >To summarize, if you don't put a warning on a game, people will assume
> >it's aimed at children (games are for kids, right?) and there's a risk
> >that they'll be mightily pissed when they realize that it isn't. I
> >wouldn't take that risk if I were you.
>
> similar? Exactly who among the literate is going to mistake this for
> a children's game?
>
The same type of people who rent "Porky's" for their kids and assume it to
be a cartoon. (I saw it happen.)
Oh, you said "literate" above there, I'm sorry, I take this back.
--
spa...@error.net, chief engineer (toot toot!) Spatula Labs, error.net/~spatula
"Pez is cheap; smiles are priceless." - C. L. McCoy
mstie#43790
Matthew Amster-Burton
rg...@cam.ac.uk (Richard Stamp) wrote:
>I've never heard the expression "jailbait". This may be (a) because
>I'm British or (b) because I lead an extraordinarily sheltered life,
>but it's certainly not because I'm illiterate. :-)
Hmm...good point. Sorry for the implication. My ability to offend
the English seems to know no bounds.
It's not exactly a common term, I suppose. In fact, I wonder why I
know it....
Matthew
Mark J Musante
Richard Stamp (rg...@cam.ac.uk) wrote:
> In article <3309e26b...@news.u.washington.edu>,
> Matthew Amster-Burton <mam...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> >
> >similar? Exactly who among the literate is going to mistake this for
> >a children's game?
>
> I'm British or (b) because I lead an extraordinarily sheltered life,
> but it's certainly not because I'm illiterate. :-)
It's a term used to indicate a woman who is (a) attractive enough to have sex
with but (b) below the age of consent. Here in the U.S., each state sets that
age, so it varies. However, I believe that the highest age of consent is 18
(I don't have my almanac handy, but I'm pretty certain of that) so, depending
on what state I-0 takes place in, it may be a misnomer.
- Mark
Charles Gerlach
they got purple; purple's a fruit wrote:
>
> And behold, Matthew Amster-Burton <mam...@u.washington.edu> did spake, speaking:
> > m...@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) wrote:
> >
> > >To summarize, if you don't put a warning on a game, people will assume
> > >it's aimed at children (games are for kids, right?) and there's a risk
> > >that they'll be mightily pissed when they realize that it isn't. I
> > >wouldn't take that risk if I were you.
> >
> > similar? Exactly who among the literate is going to mistake this for
> > a children's game?
> >
>
> be a cartoon. (I saw it happen.)
>
> Oh, you said "literate" above there, I'm sorry, I take this back.
>
Also, there are the parents that don't seem to care. I was in a
bookstore shopping for X-mas presents when a guy brought a toddler
over to the aisle next to me and said "Ok, get the one you want."
The toddler picked up one of those books with electronic sound
effects. I was thinking: "Oh, how cute."
Then the child pressed one of the buttons, and was rewarded
with: "Huh-huh, huh-huh-huh. Shut up, ass-munch." Which the child
gleefully repeated in his little high-pitched, barely-literate
voice. The father(?) showed no recognition, concern, or even
surprise; he simply continued shopping.
So, what with all the stupid parents and apathetic parents, are there
actually any out there that would get offended at their child playing
a somewhat off-color text-adventure?
--
**********************************************************************
Charles Gerlach does not speak for Northwestern, and can be mailed at:
cagerlac a t merle d o t acns d o t nwu d o t edu
He hopes that placing his e-mail in this format did not seriously
inconvenience anyone attempting to contact him (except for spam-bots).
Adam J. Thornton
Maybe I'm wrong. It'd be wonderful if I'm wrong.
But I suspect that many, if not most, of the people who are going to play
I-0 read this newsgroup.
If they can handle that discourse, they can handle I-0.
I hope someone can tell me I'm wrong and that simply *tons* of people who
aren't part of the raif readership have been downloading I-0.
Adam
--
"I'd buy me a used car lot, and | ad...@princeton.edu | As B/4 | Save the choad!
I'd never sell any of 'em, just | "Skippy, you little fool, you are off on an-
drive me a different car every day | other of your senseless and retrograde
depending on how I feel.":Tom Waits| little journeys.": Thomas Pynchon | 64,928
Deidre Ng
It happens that the erotica writers list has just started a thread on the
subject of interactive sex stories. Are there any works of I-F that
actually revolve around sexual activity? As was pointed out on that list,
porn if often an early adopter of technology. Was that true of I-F as
well, or has the combination of sex and computers always been image
oriented? Perhaps the scripts of phone sex operators are examples of crude
interactive sex fiction.
Diedre Ng
Matthew Amster-Burton
fake...@anti-spam.address (Neil K.) wrote:
>Like Magnus and Matthew, I'm rather concerned about the way warning
>messages equate sex and violence as "bad" things. And I'd have to say I
>think of language much the same way - particularly with regards to textual
>fiction. Kids old enough to read IF and not find it incredibly boring (no
>pictures!) are going to have heard a hell of a lot more naughty words in
>the playground than on their computer screen.
No shit! :) I certainly have a less dirty mouth now than I did in
second grade, and I think I was a pretty average second-grader. I
don't think I played any IF until fourth grade. Any kid who does know
all your basic four-letter words by then has led an extraordinarily
sheltered life.
But I don't think it's the kids we're talking about here. It's
paranoid parents who think their kids will be harmed by playing a game
with bad words or sex in it. Many of these same parents think there's
nothing of physically assaulting their children by spanking them or
worse (after all, the second leading cause of death among children is
being killed by their parent or guardian and 40 percent of parents
spank; the research on spanking could not possibly be clearer or more
complete). There's a real problem for you.
Beyond that, there is the issue of the disclaimer affecting my
enjoyment of the game. I want to be pleasantly or unpleasantly
surprised that there's sex or a gruesome murder or a character that
says "fuck" in the game. I wouldn't want to read a novel with the
disclaimer: "Warning: this novel may contain graphic language,
violence, nudity :), or sexual content." Almost every novel has at
least one of those everyday things and almost no one complains. While
I'm harping on parents, let me postulate that some of the same parents
who would be horrified that their child was playing "I-0" are probably
reading romance novels--turgid members, heaving bosoms, not to mention
plenty of "she says no but means yes" bullshit--while their kid is on
the computer.
Perhaps I'm going after a straw man here, but the fact is that there
are people who will go to great lengths to protect children from
things they don't need to be protected from while ignoring actual
dangers. Take Bill Bennett and Jack Kemp, who rail against smutty and
violent lyrics but never mention the sexual and physical violence
suffered by thousands of children in their own homes. Putting
warnings on games invites censorship, excuses parental negligence, and
detracts from my enjoyment of the game. Let's just don't, okay?
</tirade>
> I've considered the issue of whether I should include something by way of
>a notice. I'm leaning towards putting nothing, since I take the view that
>it should be viewed as a short story or novel or somesuch. And as far as
>I'm concerned if someone is offended by the idea of a same-sex relationship
>that's their damned problem, not mine. Putting in a label warning
>essentially succumbs to the view that same-sex relationships are bad and
>thus people should be warned about them.
I agree. I don't remember having played a text game with a gay
character, and it would be a welcome addition to the pantheon.
Matthew
Matthew Daly
In article <330a4a55...@news.u.washington.edu> mam...@u.washington.edu (Matthew Amster-Burton) writes:
>rg...@cam.ac.uk (Richard Stamp) wrote:
>
>>I've never heard the expression "jailbait". This may be (a) because
>>I'm British or (b) because I lead an extraordinarily sheltered life,
>>but it's certainly not because I'm illiterate. :-)
>
>know it....
I picked it up from having worked in college as a counselor for
pre-college students. There are specific times, and specific
students, for which the term is a very refreshing reminder of the
law. (Here, I'm using the term "refreshing" in the same sense as
a bucket of ice-cold water being dumped on your head.)
-Matthew
--
Matthew Daly I feel that if a person has problems communicating
mwd...@kodak.com the very least he can do is to shut up - Tom Lehrer
My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer, of course.
Kathleen Fischer
Charles Gerlach wrote:
> So, what with all the stupid parents and apathetic parents, are there
> actually any out there that would get offended at their child playing
> a somewhat off-color text-adventure?
I would.
Kathleen
Obligatory rai-f reference:
Has the date for Competition 1997 been set? (I like the know the
deadlines I'm not going to make well in advance!)
--
*******************************************************************
* Kathleen M. Fischer
* kfis...@greenhouse.llnl.gov
** "Don't stop to stomp ants while the elephants are stampeding" **
Adam Cadre
Mark J Musante wrote:
>
> Here in the U.S., each state sets that age, so it varies. However, I
> believe that the highest age of consent is 18 (I don't have my almanac
> handy, but I'm pretty certain of that) so, depending on what state I-0
> takes place in, it may be a misnomer.
I-0 takes place in Dorado, where the age of consent is 18. Not at all
coincidentally, the age of consent in California was still 18 the last
time I checked.
18 is in fact the maximum age of consent in the US. In North
Carolina, where I live now, it's 16, though that has nothing to do
with why I moved here. Most interesting age-of-consent law:
in Mississippi, it's 18 for virgins, 12 for non-virgins.
-----
Adam Cadre, Durham, NC
http://www.duke.edu/~adamc
Matthew Amster-Burton
Adam Cadre <ad...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>with why I moved here. Most interesting age-of-consent law:
>in Mississippi, it's 18 for virgins, 12 for non-virgins.
But then...oh, never mind.
Matthew
Matthew Amster-Burton
deid...@aol.com (Deidre Ng) wrote:
That's interesting...I never thought of phone sex operators as having
scripts, but now that I think about it, it seems obvious.
There are no works of IF with an entirely sexual context that are
anything better than moronic, as far as I know. There was "Softporn
Adventure," which I've never played but from what I hear was less than
graphic. It begat the Leisure Suit Larry games, which are stupid and
not at all sexy.
I think the challenge of sexual IF would be making it seem like
something other than the player manipulating an object, albeit a
complex one. We have enough trouble making our NPCs *talk*.
Matthew
Matthew Daly
In article <19970219153...@ladder01.news.aol.com> deid...@aol.com (Deidre Ng) writes:
>It happens that the erotica writers list has just started a thread on the
>subject of interactive sex stories. Are there any works of I-F that
>actually revolve around sexual activity? As was pointed out on that list,
>porn if often an early adopter of technology. Was that true of I-F as
>well, or has the combination of sex and computers always been image
>oriented? Perhaps the scripts of phone sex operators are examples of crude
>interactive sex fiction.
As a thread in one of these groups said a little while back, Softporn
Adventure was a fairly early game that involved getting the character
to lose his virginity. It was made into a graphic game that is better
known -- Leisure Suit Larry in the Land of the Lounge Lizards.
That's the only early example I can think of in terms of sexual games.
Drone
Admiral Jota wrote:
>
> Actually, it looked to me that the teacher was a pervert because he
> intentionally tricked an underaged high school student into watching a
> nude scene *he didn't want to see*.
>
Oh. I didn't get that it was intentional. Maybe I misread. If so, I
apologise for remarking on it.
Drone.
--
"Esse est percipi."
foxg...@globalserve.net
Deidre Ng
It happens that the erotica writers list has just started a thread on the
subject of interactive sex stories. Are there any works of I-F that
actually revolve around sexual activity? As was pointed out on that list,
porn if often an early adopter of technology. Was that true of I-F as
well, or has the combination of sex and computers always been image
oriented? Perhaps the scripts of phone sex operators are examples of crude
interactive sex fiction.
Diedre Ng
Clyde Sloniker
Adam J. Thornton wrote, when Kathleen Kischer objected to letting her
children play "I-0":
>OK.
>
>Kathleen, you might want to keep your kids from playing _I-0_ until they're
>older.
>
>See? That was easy!
Search and replace:
"Parents, you might want to keep your kids from playing _I-0_ until
they're older."
I hereby nominate this as the warning message of choice. (:3
Adam J. Thornton
In article <330B2C...@greenhouse.llnl.gov>,
Kathleen Fischer <kfis...@greenhouse.llnl.gov> wrote:
>Charles Gerlach wrote:
>> So, what with all the stupid parents and apathetic parents, are there
>> actually any out there that would get offended at their child playing
>> a somewhat off-color text-adventure?
>I would.
>Kathleen
OK.
Kathleen, you might want to keep your kids from playing _I-0_ until they're
older.
See? That was easy!
Adam
Magnus Olsson
In article <330b2e9b...@news.u.washington.edu>,
Matthew Amster-Burton <mam...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>But I don't think it's the kids we're talking about here. It's
>paranoid parents who think their kids will be harmed by playing a game
>with bad words or sex in it.
The paranoid parents are a potential problem as long as IF is viewed
(by the unenlightened masses :-) ) as aimed primarily at children or
young teenagers. You may feel that putting in a warning message to
appease them is demeaning to you as an artist, or that it would be
capitulating to the loud-mouthed right-wing "moralists". You may feel
that it's the parents' responsibility and not yours to check what
their children are doing.
But I think the *real* problem is to get rid of the notion that all IF
is harmless stuff, suitable for children. If indeed there is such a
notion; I may be exaggerating the problem.
Adam J. Thornton
In article <E5usF...@world.std.com>,
Mark J Musante <olo...@world.std.com> wrote:
>It's a term used to indicate a woman who is (a) attractive enough to have sex
>age, so it varies. However, I believe that the highest age of consent is 18
>(I don't have my almanac handy, but I'm pretty certain of that) so, depending
>on what state I-0 takes place in, it may be a misnomer.
I-0 takes place in Dorado.
Where the age of consent, apparently, is 18.
In most of the other fifty states it's actually lower. Don't ask me how or
why I know this.
Adam J. Thornton
In article <5eggf6$2...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>,
Clyde Sloniker <pu...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>Adam J. Thornton wrote, when Kathleen Kischer objected to letting her
>children play "I-0":
>>older.
>"Parents, you might want to keep your kids from playing _I-0_ until
>they're older."
Nope, because there are some parents out there, maybe, who don't care what
their kids read or play but *will* be offended by a random stranger
suggesting what they do in the banner of a piece of IF. Case-by-case
warnings, I say.
Matthew Amster-Burton
m...@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) wrote:
>But I think the *real* problem is to get rid of the notion that all IF
>is harmless stuff, suitable for children. If indeed there is such a
>notion; I may be exaggerating the problem.
I agree. We may be well ahead of ourselves here. I don't know if the
average parent knows the first thing about IF; he and his kid
probably both assume that all games are graphical. I was speaking
more generally (perhaps inappropriately for this group). As I see it,
we are not yet at the point where we even need to discuss warning
messages for text games (not that this stopped me). No one has
complained yet, as far as I know.
Matthew
James Cole
rg...@cam.ac.uk (Richard Stamp) wrote:
>In article <3309e26b...@news.u.washington.edu>,
>Matthew Amster-Burton <mam...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Isn't "I-0" subtitled "The Jailbait on the Interstate Game" or
>>similar? Exactly who among the literate is going to mistake this for
>>a children's game?
>
>I've never heard the expression "jailbait". This may be (a) because
>I'm British or (b) because I lead an extraordinarily sheltered life,
>but it's certainly not because I'm illiterate. :-)
I've never heard the expression either (I'm from Australia). I guess this is
one of those things that occur because people on the net are from such a wide
reaching span of cultures/places, even though we sometimes don't think of it
that way.
>[...]
---------------
James Cole
jrc...@ozemail.com.au
Branko Collin
Deidre Ng (deid...@aol.com) wrote:
: It happens that the erotica writers list has just started a thread on the
I hope I will not get sued for copying a copyrighted text, or for posting
something with a commercial content. The following was an advert in Your
64, April 1985.
-------BEGIN----------
Commodore Users
Join Albert Battersby in his sexual fantasies and adventures in his desire
to achieve the ultimate sensations
"Soho Sex Quest"
Albert is a 27 year old sewing machine attendant from North Yorkshire. He
wins a national contest. The prize "A Night with Zelda the First Lady of
Soho". What a way to go, but before you get to Zelda's bedroom, you must
first encounter the dark and luring parts of Soho. If you go wrong, the
pimps, perverts and police will get you. Good luck Albert ... you'll need
it.
Tape 5.25 UKP8
Disk UKP 12.95
[snipped the "Herpes or Bust" bit, as I am typing this on-line]
Cheques/P.O. made payable to:
Maian
P.O. Box 390
Purleigh,
Essex
X-rated, sold only to people over 18 years old
------END-------------
I have no idea if this game actually is worth playing, or whether it is
still available.
-----
Branko Collin http://www.xs4all.nl/~collin
col...@xs4all.nl http://www.kun.nl/undans/members/branko.htm
"Erm... Erm... should I say something interesting now?"
- Branko Collin -
Drone
Mark J Musante wrote:
>
> > I've never heard the expression "jailbait". This may be (a) because
> > I'm British or (b) because I lead an extraordinarily sheltered life,
> > but it's certainly not because I'm illiterate. :-)
>
> with but (b) below the age of consent.
In my experience with the term it has been gender-neutral.
Mark J Musante
Drone (foxg...@globalserve.net) wrote:
> Mark J Musante wrote:
> >
> > > I've never heard the expression "jailbait". This may be (a) because
> > > I'm British or (b) because I lead an extraordinarily sheltered life,
> > > but it's certainly not because I'm illiterate. :-)
> >
> > It's a term used to indicate a woman who is (a) attractive enough to have sex
> > with but (b) below the age of consent.
>
> In my experience with the term it has been gender-neutral.
I've only ever heard it applied to women, but it certainly can work for both
genders.
- Mark
Andrew Clover
Branko Collin (col...@xs2.xs4all.nl) wrote:
> I hope I will not get sued for copying a copyrighted text, or for posting
> something with a commercial content. The following was an advert in Your
> 64, April 1985.
>> Join Albert Battersby in his sexual fantasies and adventures in his desire
>> to achieve the ultimate sensations
>> "Soho Sex Quest"
Coo! I've got a snapshot of this for the Spectrum; I kept it because it's so
hilariously awful. Even for a 8-bit adventure, the parser, grammar and
vocabulary - not to mention the the prose and design - are terrible.
If anyone's looking for an third adventure to MiST, this is the one.
>> X-rated, sold only to people over 18 years old
That's a laugh: I very much doubt the author had left school. Yes, it's
another supposedly funny but actually piss-poor sex adventure you might expect
to see written in AGT.
Erotica? It's not even close. It's as erotic as translating the entire Inform
Designers' Manual to HTML. Using vi.
To summarise: I didn't like it. :-)
BCNU, AjC
Graham Nelson
In article <19970219153...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, Deidre Ng
<URL:mailto:deid...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> It happens that the erotica writers list has just started a thread on the
> subject of interactive sex stories. Are there any works of I-F that
> actually revolve around sexual activity? As was pointed out on that list,
> porn if often an early adopter of technology. Was that true of I-F as
> well, or has the combination of sex and computers always been image
> oriented? Perhaps the scripts of phone sex operators are examples of crude
> interactive sex fiction.
A salutary tale, if possibly one that I'm mis-remembering: I read
a piece in a computer magazine once, interviewing a programmer
who'd worked on one of the early PC pretend-you're-having-sex games.
(Hats off to any players of such -- suspension of disbelief
doesn't get any more heroic than this.) Anyway, the programmer
said that the team had spent about 75% of their time perfecting the
scene in which Ms X takes off her blouse. They became fascinated
with the folds of the fabric, the way it ought to catch the virtual
light, the cantilevering of the elbows, and so on. By the time
any horizontal jogging was called for, the programmers were
already out of time and resources.
To give a serious answer. I see no reason why there couldn't be
an erotic IF game (except perhaps good taste). One obstacle is
that the interface would need thought. What combination of
verb and noun would we like the player to type in, as simulated
passion grows? I don't really think most naturally of these
kind of actions in verbal terms, only in terms of a sort of
understood semaphore with one's partner.
But it's not purely a matter of niceties or the rudeness of
"rude words". Most commands in adventure games refer to completed
actions: FILL BASKET, TAKE INGOT, etc., or to actions which could
be continued but which are understood to be interrupted: GO SOUTH.
I don't think a parser interface for intercourse could deal only
in such actions. Wouldn't it have to keep saying something like
"(taking your hand off ****** first)", and having to assume that
all activities are continuing unless explicitly stopped?
Besides this, sex is certainly about communication, but not much
of it's about decision processes, and a lot of the negotiation
that takes place is tactile. In an IF game, the player would be
spending all of the time pondering what to ask to do next, or
tapping it out (a lengthy process left-handed), with only brief
intermissions to watch text rush by describing the allegedly
ecstatic result.
As a final negative point, IF is partly about puzzles. Admittedly,
in a few games, at least some of the puzzles are about discerning
the characters of other people. Nevertheless the majority are
brain-teasers of one kind or another. Are we to postulate a
coy mistress who behaves in matters of the bedroom rather as
the lady shopkeeper does in "The Magic Toyshop", insisting that
we win games of noughts-and-crosses and so on?
Thus, I reckon simulated IF sex is infeasible. What _might_ be
feasible? I could imagine a detective thriller in which some
erotic milieu would be explored -- hero as voyeur, I suppose,
mirroring the player. And/or I could imagine a game in which
a couple, no more, of sparely interactive sex scenes lead to
important discoveries (Great Scott! Lola has a Chinese tong
marking tattooed on her inner thigh! So Mr Li was working for
El Gangstero after all!).
I can't help wondering what phone sex scripts read like...
"51. Briefly impersonate Shirley Temple. Press the button marked
"bedsprings noise". Go back to line 40."
(Don't you love these inappropriate couplings of words? "Phone
sex", hmm. I saw a reference today to a saint having been
"brutally dismembered" in AD 650. As opposed to "humanely",
no doubt.)
Enough rambling. What I'd prefer would be a good, honest,
strike at romantic IF, not as a piece of kitsch genre fiction
but as a gutsy work in its own right. Any volunteers?
--
Graham Nelson | gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom
Patrick Kellum
For some reason, Adam Cadre was chatting and out came these words of greatness:
>18 is in fact the maximum age of consent in the US. In North
>Carolina, where I live now, it's 16, though that has nothing to do
>with why I moved here. Most interesting age-of-consent law:
>in Mississippi, it's 18 for virgins, 12 for non-virgins.
I never could figure out how this could be inforced, manadatory medical
checks every day or something? O-well, AOC laws, and all age based laws,
are a form of descrimination anyway IMNSHO.
And to keep this message slightly on topic with raif, I-0 R3 looks to be
nearly bug free, except for the one I emailed you about that I doubt
anyone else would find anyway.
Patrick
---
"Every weekday morning the school bell cast its glamour over the
surounding hills, calling the young to classes. They came running
down the slopes and leaping over the streams, out from caves and the
hollows of trees and suburban tract homes, impelled by powers greater
then their own to gain an education."
"The Iron Dragon's Daughter" by Michael Swanwick
Adam Cadre
Patrick Kellum wrote:
>
> >in Mississippi, it's 18 for virgins, 12 for non-virgins.
>
> medical checks every day or something?
Rarely are statutory rape cases a matter of the state stepping in, as
far as I know; generally the minor (or her (rarely his) parents) sue
the perpetrator, much as one would sue someone for sexual harassment.
What makes the Mississippi law exceptional is that it establishes a
six-year window where you can only sue for being =deflowered=; after
that, the state figures that you know what you're getting into (or
-- bad taste alert -- what's getting into you) and can render consent.
Or, for those with a more suspicious eye toward the motivations of
Mississippi lawmakers, they figure that if you're between 12 and 18
and not a virgin, then you're a slut and don't deserve state
protection.
On the other hand, if you mean "enforcement" in the sense of
enforcing the added virginity provision -- proving someone to have
been a virgin when she (rarely he) is now certainly not -- it's the
same kind of difficulty encountered in the majority of rape cases.
Just as the court has to judge the likelihood of consent having been
rendered in a conventional case, it has to judge the likelihood of
the ostensible victim's virginity in a statutory rape case in
Mississippi.
To keep this barely on topic, one of the decisions I had to make in
I-0 was how to deal with Tracy's characterization vis-a-vis any sexual
activity the player might ask of her. My eventual decision was a sort
of retroactive continuity: to the best of my ability, I tried to give
the impression that the way the player has Tracy act is the way she's
always acted. That is, if she runs around naked and tries to get it
on with everything that moves, then it is implied that she has a long
history of such; if she doesn't, then she has no such history. There's
no provision for the events of I-0 being Tracy's "sexual awakening,"
so to speak. If Dorado's law is like Mississippi's, therefore, the
virginity provision becomes irrelevant.
Graham Nelson
In article <5ekl4c$6...@finnan.csv.warwick.ac.uk>, Andrew Clover
<URL:mailto:es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Erotica? It's not even close. It's as erotic as translating the entire Inform
> Designers' Manual to HTML. Using vi.
Mmm... say that again, Andrew... ooh, yes... don't forget <gasp!>
the table of operators...
Drone
Adam J. Thornton wrote:
>
> Nope, because there are some parents out there, maybe, who don't care what
> their kids read or play but *will* be offended by a random stranger
> suggesting what they do in the banner of a piece of IF. Case-by-case
> warnings, I say.
>
There's an inherent paradox in some of these arguments (not above though, I just
missed the proper message to reply to). The problem seems to be the idea that
parents would not expect off-colour stuff from a "game." But why would they execute
the game file to check it out in advance of making it available to their children,
if they weren't expecting anything? Since today's IF has no physical packaging, the
parents who would be shocked to discover adult material in a game would never end
up reading the warning. Same goes for included text files, and other net.available
warnings "spots".
Unless they want to play the game themselves, in which case the warning is
redundant.
But on another note: if you don't like the idea of "branding" your writing (and I
don't), and you want to incorporate adult material, you can "signal" it in the
opening scene by providing at least a taste of it. A single violent image, or a
sexual reference, or a curse word (whichever is appropriate to the game's content)
will let everybody know what they're getting instantly.
Julian Arnold
In article <330E8B...@globalserve.net>, Drone
<URL:mailto:foxg...@globalserve.net> wrote:
>
> Adam J. Thornton wrote:
> >
> > Nope, because there are some parents out there, maybe, who don't care what
> > their kids read or play but *will* be offended by a random stranger
> > suggesting what they do in the banner of a piece of IF. Case-by-case
> > warnings, I say.
>
> There's an inherent paradox in some of these arguments (not above though, I just
> missed the proper message to reply to). The problem seems to be the idea that
> parents would not expect off-colour stuff from a "game." But why would they execute
> the game file to check it out in advance of making it available to their children,
> if they weren't expecting anything? Since today's IF has no physical packaging, the
> parents who would be shocked to discover adult material in a game would never end
> up reading the warning. Same goes for included text files, and other net.available
> warnings "spots".
This occurred to me after I posted suggesting a separate list of
warnings/ratings. It'd be bloody useless, really. I guess Adam's post
has been about the most sensible in this thread. The comparison with
books is all very well (it's a hypocrisy that no warning are required of
static books, but warnings are being considered for IF), but OTOH books
are (most often) bought from a bookshop-- bookshops categorize their
books (adult, horror/dark fantasy, childrens', etc.)-- there is an
implicit warning or rating system. In the end though, books have no
warnings (well, some do, but certainly not to restrict their readership
:). That's their good fortune, but, no matter how much we might wish it
to be otherwise, to an outsider, IF ain't books.
> Unless they want to play the game themselves, in which case the warning is
> redundant.
>
> But on another note: if you don't like the idea of "branding" your writing (and I
> don't), and you want to incorporate adult material, you can "signal" it in the
> opening scene by providing at least a taste of it. A single violent image, or a
> sexual reference, or a curse word (whichever is appropriate to the game's content)
> will let everybody know what they're getting instantly.
I fully understand, and partly agree with, this aversion to "branding"
your work. It seems to me that signalling as you describe is still
branding. It's including something in your work for the benefit of
people other than your intended audience. Just a more subtle version of
a warning. Art is being dictated by prejudice. And besides, what about
works which deal with "adult" themes, without being explicitly
violent/sexy/rude/unsociable?
> Drone.
And leave my .sig alone, Drone. :)
Jools
--
"For small erections may be finished by their first architects; grand
ones, true ones, ever leave the copestone to posterity. God keep me
from ever completing anything." -- Herman Melville, "Moby Dick"
Cyber-Babushka
On 21 Feb 1997, Andrew Clover wrote:
> Erotica? It's not even close. It's as erotic as translating the entire Inform
>Designers' Manual to HTML. Using vi.
^^^^^^^^
<onetrueeditor>
Ah! You throw down the gauntlet! I cannot let this pass unchallenged!
So, Andrew, are you one of those apostate Escape-Meta-Control-Alt-Shift
lovers? Repent of your evil ways! Come back from the dark side, come
back to the loving arms of vi, and I assure you, all will be forgiven! vi
is the One True Editor! EMACS is the anti-Christ! Repent! Repent!!!!
Repent before it's too late!!!!
</onetrueeditor>
O:)
bonni
http://wvnvm.wvnet.edu/~u6ed4/bonni.html
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IC | XC | bonni mierzejewska "The Lone Quilter"
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Adam J. Thornton
In article <ant2100261cbM+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>,
Graham Nelson <gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Enough rambling. What I'd prefer would be a good, honest,
>strike at romantic IF, not as a piece of kitsch genre fiction
>but as a gutsy work in its own right. Any volunteers?
Why don't you call Angela M. Horns? I hear she's good at it.
Patrick Kellum
uke.edu>
Organization: Pup-Tek Software International
Distribution:
For some reason, Adam Cadre was chatting and out came these words of
greatness:
>To keep this barely on topic, one of the decisions I had to make in
>I-0 was how to deal with Tracy's characterization vis-a-vis any sexual
>activity the player might ask of her. My eventual decision was a sort
>of retroactive continuity: to the best of my ability, I tried to give
>the impression that the way the player has Tracy act is the way she's
>always acted. That is, if she runs around naked and tries to get it
>on with everything that moves, then it is implied that she has a long
>history of such; if she doesn't, then she has no such history. There's
I noticed this while trying to find different endings, the character of
Tracy seems to perfectly follow the players commands. You did a rather
good job at creating that character, better then Infocom ever did IMO.
Patrick Kellum
For some reason, Graham Nelson was chatting and out came these words of
greatness:
>Enough rambling. What I'd prefer would be a good, honest,
>strike at romantic IF, not as a piece of kitsch genre fiction
>but as a gutsy work in its own right. Any volunteers?
Well, I started on one a while back, but after a nasty breakup with my SO,
I put it aside. It is of my opinion that to write a good romantic story,
the author must be experancing those feelings at the time. And putting
concepts such as love into a piece of int-fiction is rather dificult. I
would love to see some form of romantic int-fiction appear, it's the only
subject that hasn't been overdone yet.
William Bryant
Lets not forget the 'sex' and satire of Leather Goddesses of Phobos
William Bryant
wbr...@ix.netcom.com
S Barlow
What about the (funny) escapades of Lesuire Suit Larry?
I can think of some games that have featured sex; Plundered
Hearts had rape and romance in it - although the actual act was left to
the player's imagination and featured some very "Romantic" sea-imagery.
I can remember playing some home-grown "pulling" adventures on my
Amstrad CPC where the player ran around strip-clubs and student houses
trying to get as much sex as possible. The jokes were awful and I
remember at the time people thought they were quite good. I think they
were written by Simon Avery (though I doubt my memory serves
me correctly). At the time I was amazed when ">kiss barmaid" produced a
more constructive response than "This game isn't R-Rated!" "She looks
embarassed" "Not in this game!" "Take a cold shower!"
I don't think IF simulation of the sex-act would be that hard - think of
how the complexities of conversation can be dealt with - long
description of the conversation then the player is prompted to "ask ..."
at which point the conversation continues. We could have a paragraph of
pink-prose which ends with the player's partner moans "Oooh, you are so
good. My nipples are feeling lonely" at which point the player types
">tweak nipples"...maybe not such a good idea after all. Perhaps with
Leisure Suit Larry we have seen the pinacle of this genre - afterall any
description of something as personal and private as sex has to try very
hard not to be funny.
**********-Samuel Barlow-***********
* *
* sb6...@bris.ac.uk *
* http://irix.bris.ac.uk/~sb6729 *
* *
************************************
Richard G Clegg
Matthew Daly (da...@PPD.Kodak.COM) wrote:
: As a thread in one of these groups said a little while back, Softporn
: Adventure was a fairly early game that involved getting the character
: to lose his virginity. It was made into a graphic game that is better
: known -- Leisure Suit Larry in the Land of the Lounge Lizards.
: That's the only early example I can think of in terms of sexual games.
The lesser known SOFTPORN II - which I had a copy of many years ago (I
was about 16 and considered it fairly raunchy then). It was odd because
for a piece of I-F about sex it really was more like a strategy game (hmm...
If I rub her breasts now then she'll be more aroused but I risk loss
of erection) at the time it really made me worried that sex would be
very difficult indeed - especially without the STATUS command which I
assumed woudl be unavailable in real life. There were also a couple of
Star Trek I-F games one of which involved wandering around the ship trying
to have sex with as many trek characters as possible and another of which
involved having sex with Deanna troi in various combinations of clothed/
unclothed and in various rooms.
Lest anybody think me obsessive... um er... well I'm not OK... I was
just curious. I've no idea where you'd obtain these (frankly poor) bits
of software these days. Believe me, you're not missing much.
Nowadays I prefer to get off on solutions to the Travelling Salesmen
Problem so I wouldn't say that exposure to sexual I-F has an adverse
effect on adolescents.
--
Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving
Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York.
email: ric...@manor.york.ac.uk
www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html
chi...@fred.aurora.edu
Felt I had to respond to this, as SHOPPING is going to contain
probably at least 3 major sex scenes that are required..and a
few that are optional<g> Of course, as Ive said befoer, at the rate
Im going y'all be playing Avalon 3 by then. . .<g>
Graham 'Like unto a god' Nelson wrote:
> But it's not purely a matter of niceties or the rudeness of
> "rude words". Most commands in adventure games refer to completed
> actions: FILL BASKET, TAKE INGOT, etc., or to actions which could
> be continued but which are understood to be interrupted: GO SOUTH.
> I don't think a parser interface for intercourse could deal only
> in such actions. Wouldn't it have to keep saying something like
> "(taking your hand off ****** first)", and having to assume that
> all activities are continuing unless explicitly stopped?
No, not really. Not unless you define body parts seperatley. I
havent tried it yet(as when I try to do NPC's my Inform compiler
crashes =( ) but I see no reason you couldnt program a NPC to
respond to most of the things a person would type ..in a carefully
directed situation.
> As a final negative point, IF is partly about puzzles. Admittedly,
> in a few games, at least some of the puzzles are about discerning
> the characters of other people. Nevertheless the majority are
> brain-teasers of one kind or another. Are we to postulate a
> coy mistress who behaves in matters of the bedroom rather as
> the lady shopkeeper does in "The Magic Toyshop", insisting that
> we win games of noughts-and-crosses and so on?
>
Ah, but sex can _be_ a puzzle. For example..2 of the planned
encounters in shopping include a princess with a secret wish
to be dominated.. once youve 'broken her will', so to speak, you
can command her to give you a certain item which is necessary for
the game. Another includes a woman robot with a bomb inside..that
can only be defused by making the robot orgasm..
You can control the situation and influence what the player will
even think abouuty typing in..
Chidder
sharvey
Graham Nelson (gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: Enough rambling. What I'd prefer would be a good, honest,
: strike at romantic IF, not as a piece of kitsch genre fiction
: but as a gutsy work in its own right. Any volunteers?
What I'd like to see is not romantic IF, but modern crime noir IF (my
reasons _against_ the romance format are personal, ugly, and not suitable
for family viewing).
Anyone who's familiar with the work of James Ellroy will know what I have
in mind. A main character who's not the "save the world and be a hero"
type so common in IF. I think it would be a real kick in the genre to
play an amoral character, like a mafia hitman, a loanshark, a bookie,
something in that category. Naturally, the player would still need to be
a hero and achieve goals, but those goals would be somewhat less than
honorable.
I think there'd be a lot of interest in this; look at the audience for
movies like The Godfather, Reservoir Dogs, or The Usual Suspects.
You'd actually be able to have actions like "kill" and "steal" that would
do something other than the default "not in this game" message:
> KILL BODYGUARD
(with your bare hands)
You peer at the massive leather-jacketed guy, currently cleaning his teeth
with an icepick. You realize your hands wouldn't fit around his muscular
neck, so strangulation is out of the question. Lacking a suitable weapon,
this doesn't seem very practical.
> KILL BODYGUARD WITH PIANO WIRE
You nod knowingly at the goon, who gives you the once-over from beneath
furry eyebrows as you pass by. As he turns to resume tooth-picking, you
whip the slender wire from your sleeve and around his neck. A few seconds
of pulling and thrashing and it's all over. The icepick falls to the
floor with a tinkle as you let the massive body slump to the floor at your
feet.
[Your score has just gone up 5 points.]
What does everyone think of this? I'm not talking about making the PC a
maniac or a serial killer - that's too intense even for me. Someone who's
up against a rival criminal syndicate - someone with a score to settle.
Comments?
Scott
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Will Grzanich
In article <5et0cb$b...@eve.enteract.com>, sha...@enteract.com says...
>What does everyone think of this? I'm not talking about making the PC a
>maniac or a serial killer - that's too intense even for me. Someone
who's
>up against a rival criminal syndicate - someone with a score to settle.
>
>Comments?
I'd play it, for certain. It's an interesting idea, to have the player
be a burgler, an assassin, or a bounty hunter or something...and he
needn't be evil or anything like that. I can envision a game where the
player is a bounty hunter or an assassin for hire employed by, say, the
U.S. government to infiltrate another country's military base or
whatever. Hrm...
-Will
--
"All you need is love." | Check out my piece-o'-crap web page at
-John Lennon | http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/~grzanich!
| FDA approved!!
Matthew Amster-Burton
rg...@york.ac.uk (Richard G Clegg) wrote:
> Nowadays I prefer to get off on solutions to the Travelling Salesmen
>Problem so I wouldn't say that exposure to sexual I-F has an adverse
>effect on adolescents.
You know, I'll bet traveling salesmen don't have remotely the same
problems that mathematicians think they do. :)
Matthew
Matthew Amster-Burton
sha...@enteract.com (sharvey) wrote:
>What I'd like to see is not romantic IF, but modern crime noir IF (my
>reasons _against_ the romance format are personal, ugly, and not suitable
>for family viewing).
Well, if that ain't an invitation to pry. What's your problem?
Matthew
James Cole
grza...@uiuc.edu (Will Grzanich) wrote:
[...]
>I'd play it, for certain. It's an interesting idea, to have the player
>be a burgler, an assassin, or a bounty hunter or something...and he
>needn't be evil or anything like that. I can envision a game where the
>player is a bounty hunter or an assassin for hire employed by, say, the
>U.S. government to infiltrate another country's military base or
>whatever. Hrm...
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
>"All you need is love." | Check out my piece-o'-crap web page at
> -John Lennon | http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/~grzanich!
> | FDA approved!!
>
Stephen van Egmond
For a truly extreme example of a "step into the mind of a criminal" IF
'game', pay a visit to dejanews, and put the following in the "search"
field (I just did it) -- be sure to specify the OLD usenet database.
rec.arts.int-fiction air fresheners
Um. 'Nuff said.
/Steve
still creeped out
John Holder
Cyber-Babushka (u6...@wvnvm.wvnet.edu) wrote:
: vi is the One True Editor! EMACS is the anti-Christ! Repent! Repent!!!!
: Repent before it's too late!!!!
_Preach_ it, sister! Amen!
(hey, I really do code all my HTML in vi. Phhpt! ;)
--
John Holder (jho...@frii.com) /\ http://www.frii.com/~jholder/
UNIX Specialist, Paranet Inc. <--> Raytracing|Fractals|Interactive Fiction
http://www.paranet.com/ \/ Homebrewing|Strange Attractors
Aquarius
Matthew Amster-Burton (mam...@u.washington.edu) spoo'd forth:
Any kid who does know
: all your basic four-letter words by then has led an extraordinarily
: sheltered life.
Really? I'd love to know what kids with unsheltered lives are like in your
world :)
Now, on to the point; I have to point out that I basically agree with a
large proportion of the posters on this thread; extensive warnings would
be a Bad Thing, and trying to protect people isn't your job. Having said
all this, I think something is necessary; a lot of people still perceive
IF as games[1], and ganes as things for kids[2]. I daresay that kids will
hear swear words in the playground, but you still wouldn't walk up to an
eleven year old and shout 'fuck' at him thirty times.
Aquarius
[1] Possibly right.
[2] Probably wrong.
--
"The grand plan that is Aquarius proceeds apace." - 'Ronin', Frank Miller.
----aqua...@cryogen.com | http://www.netforward.com/cryogen/?aquarius----
I would not bet against the existence of time machines. My opponent might
------ have seen the future and know the answer. - Stephen Hawking -------
Eli the Bearded
Hmmm. Thanks. I remember the fallout from that article, but I never
saw it myself (lossy newsfeed at the time). That was a really great
movie, I was irked that the Personifications were not introduced in
the traditional order. (It was particularly annoying when the movie
even mentioned a bunch of classics which all had them in the right
order. But it suited the plot, I guess, to change things.)
From my own experience writing conventional fiction from the POV of
twisted fucks, it is not a pleasant thing. It induces some stress.
Afterwards you are left with a very melancholy satisfaction. IF is
hard enough to write without these added burdens. And the readers/
players may not be sutiably strong willed enough to play, esp. if
the puzzles are at all challenging.
_The Killer Inside Me_ a /roman noir/ by Jim Thompson would be a
much better starting point for IF from the POV of the deranged.
The story allows all of the vicious actions to be left out of the
player's control. It is a first person narration with a narrator
who is obviously lying to you at times, so that could add some
interesting twists to IF. Nabokov's _Lolita_ might be something
twisted but doable as well.
Elijah
------
<URL:http://www.netusa.net/~eli/writings.html> My Fiction
sharvey
Matthew Amster-Burton (mam...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
Heh.
A Freudian invitation at that. Not my intention.
We'll just say that I'm embracing my bitter and twisted side after a
busted engagement which entailed having to send a registered letter to get
my family heirloom diamond back. I got my grandmother's stone back and
traded the nice setting for a Tag-Heuer wristwatch which I wear every day
as a reminder against making future mistakes of the kind.
That having been said, I think that "romantic comedy", especially of the
sort portrayed in the Hollywood drek film (i.e. "Sleepless In Seattle",
"Ghost", "Pretty Woman") is a simplistic art form aiming at the Oprah
Winfrey-adoring lowest common denomintor audience. It really takes no
effort to throw together a bunch of characters and unlikely situations,
saturate the entire project in misunderstandings and sugar-syrup
sentiment, and you've got a hit film.
Karl Marx said that religion was the opiate of the masses. He didn't get
a chance to see any romantic comedy films.
I know I sound bitter as hell, and so be it. Love me or leave me, it's
what I am and I'm content. While I admire the technical effort that would
go into an IF project like a romance game, I'm simply not interested in
expending that effort, just like I'm not interested in spending my money
on films with a cocktail-napkin-sized plot.
Scott
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Matthew Amster-Burton
Okey-dokey, that explains it.
Matthew
Staffan Friberg
Matthew Amster-Burton writes:
> Frankly, I think I public call for censorship of IF would be pretty
> damn exciting. It would certainly increase the size of our community,
> just as Bill Bennett is selling Marilyn Manson's albums.
No, no, no, that has nothing to do with censorship, it just shows that most
people are pretty stupid, especially goth-wanabees and vampire kids.
<Smirk>
I agree with your point, though, a public call for censorship would
increase the community but I don't think the effect will last very long.
--
Staffan Friberg (st...@rabbit.augs.se) Sweden GothCode 2.0:
GoPS+3TJt(NrZ)B4/18Bk!cNRs--PSh(MoSa)V+sM++ZGo(GnNr--)C+2p3pa27-n
-Ob:-H174g+LmEa2+?w+Lr++D--!%H+PR(MoSh)s10k+RmSrNnN0890nLse!HdSp1
Graham Nelson
In article <331189...@fred.aurora.edu>,
<URL:mailto:chi...@fred.aurora.edu> wrote:
> >
> Ah, but sex can _be_ a puzzle. For example..2 of the planned
> encounters in shopping include a princess with a secret wish
> to be dominated.. once youve 'broken her will', so to speak, you
> can command her to give you a certain item which is necessary for
> the game. Another includes a woman robot with a bomb inside..that
> can only be defused by making the robot orgasm..
Mmm... yes and no. The actual process of intercourse would not
involve complicated intellectual puzzles, one feels. (Or do we
plan on a chastity belt with fourteen different sets of keys,
each hidden on a different planet, etc., etc.?)
A princess with a secret wish to be given a cup of tea with two
sugars in, perhaps. And I have to say, if I was told that a woman
robot had a bomb inside, I'm not sure I'd try your defusal strategy
until the situation was pretty desperate... Still, I suppose
all genre fiction is about switching off one's common sense.
Joe Mason
"Re: Warning messages: goo", declared Julian Arnold from the Vogon ship:
JA>post has been about the most sensible in this thread. The comparison
JA>with books is all very well (it's a hypocrisy that no warning are
JA>required of static books, but warnings are being considered for IF),
JA>but OTOH books are (most often) bought from a bookshop-- bookshops
JA>categorize their books (adult, horror/dark fantasy, childrens',
JA>etc.)-- there is an implicit warning or rating system. In the end
Not to mention books have a cover, with pictures and blurbs and maybe a
plot summary. With IF you have to guess from the title (what do you
make of a title like I-0, anyway? The first thing I thought when I saw
it was, "+=3").
Joe
ş CMPQwk 1.42 9550 şVegetarians eat vegetables-Beware of humanitarians
Cable Hicks
In article <5et3q2$j...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, grza...@uiuc.edu (Will Grzanich) wrote:
>In article <5et0cb$b...@eve.enteract.com>, sha...@enteract.com says...
>
>>What does everyone think of this? I'm not talking about making the PC a
>>maniac or a serial killer - that's too intense even for me. Someone
>who's
>>up against a rival criminal syndicate - someone with a score to settle.
>>
>>Comments?
>
>be a burgler, an assassin, or a bounty hunter or something...and he
>needn't be evil or anything like that. I can envision a game where the
>player is a bounty hunter or an assassin for hire employed by, say, the
>U.S. government to infiltrate another country's military base or
>whatever. Hrm...
>
How about something like the Stainless Steel Rat books?
Cable Hicks
hi...@goldrush.com
Andreas Hoppler
In article <331189...@fred.aurora.edu>, chi...@fred.aurora.edu says...
: Another includes a woman robot with a bomb inside..that
: can only be defused by making the robot orgasm..
Argh! The game I'm currently noodling around with (writing is too
definite a term) is a lot more boring. You're discouraging me :-)
--Andreas
Matthew Amster-Burton
Graham Nelson <gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Mmm... yes and no. The actual process of intercourse would not
>involve complicated intellectual puzzles, one feels. (Or do we
>plan on a chastity belt with fourteen different sets of keys,
>each hidden on a different planet, etc., etc.?)
Heh heh.
I wondering if this is beginning to turn into the old argument of
whether IF is such a constrained form that it inhibits good writing in
general. But I don't really feel like extracting that tooth right
now. Baggett, are you lurking?
Matthew
James Trischman
What does the F in I-F stand for?
I think the discussion is getting a little silly.
I tend to agree with Graham that the actual act of intercourse is
not going to be very interesting. This is pretty much true in most
fiction. The pulp romance novel and the porno flick are hardly held
up as paragons of their respective mediums.
I contend that when sex is used effectively in fiction it is used to
symbolize something or reflect an inner state of a character that the
author doesn't want to explicitly relate. ( Sometimes in film I think
sex is used as "shortcut" to evoke a sense of intimacy since we only
get about 90 minutes to get to know the characters. )
Certainly most of the readers here are clever enough to think of ways
to convert just about anything into an I-F puzzle. Several examples
have been posted. I imagine that given an evening and a 6-pack of beer
we could concoct a whole adventure full of sexual puzzles. It would
ultimately reduce to the experience of Bill Murray's character in the
film "Groundhog's Day" where he has infinite attempts to seduce the
girl just by trying every possible combinations of actions, but the
process renders the end result meaningless.
I don't think that it is impossible to integrate a sexual encounter
into an I-F story, I just think the puzzle angle is ultimately a
dead end. I'm not interested in an I-F game that reads like a letter
to the Playboy Forum, and there's no appeal to a game of "guess that
verb," where the verb happens to be f**k. I assume that most reader
in this forum are interested in advancing the "fiction" aspect of I-F.
I think an interesting discussion would be about how romance,
intimacy, love, hate, AND sex (and the moral consequences), fit into
the unique requirements of interactive fiction. Can we really get
the player to feel emotionally involved with the other characters?
Can we even get the player involved in his own character?
Another issue involves the technical limitations of computer
controlled characters, and still another involves interaction
with characters who might be real humans somewhere over the network.
( Star Trek has put an interesting spin on the first with
the use of the holodeck as a plot device, but of course it
presupposes a more advanced state-of-the-art.)
Jay Trischman
Florian Beck
sha...@enteract.com (sharvey) writes:
> What I'd like to see is not romantic IF, but modern crime noir IF (my
> reasons _against_ the romance format are personal, ugly, and not suitable
> for family viewing).
I have been to the pictures this evening and saw 'Last Supper'. Now,
wouldn't this be something for IF :-) Quite simple, too, as it would
be perfectly clear what you have to do (otoh the player shouldn't be
*too* sure either).
> Anyone who's familiar with the work of James Ellroy will know what I have
> in mind. A main character who's not the "save the world and be a hero"
> type so common in IF. I think it would be a real kick in the genre to
> play an amoral character, like a mafia hitman, a loanshark, a bookie,
> something in that category. Naturally, the player would still need to be
> a hero and achieve goals, but those goals would be somewhat less than
> honorable.
This actually isn't to different from older games where you're running
around slaughtering trolls, dwarves and thieves.
Things like Pulp Fiction or 'From Dusk Till Dawn' (sorry, just in a
film mood today) are a bit different, as they focus a lot on
atmosphere.
The old 'perfect crime' motive could work well. Or setting the scene
*after* the first crime has been committed. The player then had to try
to get away with it. (And forced to commit further crimes.) Care
should be taken to avoid the mindless "mercenary/hit squat/elite
soldier" plot where the enemy is bad, killing good, the own side right,
the morality stinks, and whole thing gets dead boring.
--
Flo
sharvey
Florian Beck (f...@ue801di.lrz-muenchen.de) wrote:
: This actually isn't to different from older games where you're running
: around slaughtering trolls, dwarves and thieves.
Yeah, but it's always assumed that the trolls, dwarves, ogres, and theives
are "evil" and the player is "good."
: The old 'perfect crime' motive could work well. Or setting the scene
: *after* the first crime has been committed. The player then had to try
: to get away with it. (And forced to commit further crimes.) Care
: should be taken to avoid the mindless "mercenary/hit squat/elite
: soldier" plot where the enemy is bad, killing good, the own side right,
: the morality stinks, and whole thing gets dead boring.
I'm tinkering with the idea of a minor-league "organization guy" thrown
into something WAY over his head (i.e. a major hit on his bosses). Still
allows for plenty of amroal decisions, potential murder, and revenge.
Comments?
Florian Beck
sha...@enteract.com (sharvey) writes:
> Florian Beck (f...@ue801di.lrz-muenchen.de) wrote:
> : This actually isn't to different from older games where you're running
> : around slaughtering trolls, dwarves and thieves.
>
> Yeah, but it's always assumed that the trolls, dwarves, ogres, and theives
> are "evil" and the player is "good."
He, he. That is because evil characters sometimes are just evil, but
sometimes they are, well.. you know (think of that blonde guy in
"Fargo", he he he...)
The good characters often are simply boring anyway.
Anything that features "definitely good" and "definitely bad" usually is not too
interesting. It lacks the very essential of the dramatic paradigm: Two
sides that are right in their own way.
And then: The *really* bad guys. I doubt i would want to play this.
The *real* bad guys are not the mass murderers and serial killers.
But the guys who rape the girl they had a date with. Those who beat
their wives and children. Those gangs that beat up Jews or
homosexuals. Those who turn in their neighbours for smoking
dope. Would you want to play *that*?
> I'm tinkering with the idea of a minor-league "organization guy" thrown
> into something WAY over his head (i.e. a major hit on his bosses).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is something I like very much (Esp. if it looks simple at first
glance) Like he has to assassinate that (seemingly) unimportant guy; or
just to deliver a "message". And then? Framed by his own side?
Confronted with an unknown power? Much potential buildup. Sounds promising...
> Still
> allows for plenty of amroal decisions, potential murder, and revenge.
Yes, but I would avoid turning it into a crusade against his (former ?)
organisation. I think the most interesting results would be if the
players' deeds are at least dubious. Dubious in three aspects: The
"official" law, his organisation's implicit laws *and* the
story's/player's standard of moral.
OTOH, what finally counts is FUN.
Probably I should try something like this myself. Would be my,
hm... twelfth? game I've started. Would keep me from finishing
anything. Fine :-)
--
Flo
John Ruschmeyer
In article <5ese42$8...@netty.york.ac.uk>,
Richard G Clegg <ric...@manor.york.ac.uk> wrote:
>Matthew Daly (da...@PPD.Kodak.COM) wrote:
>
> The lesser known SOFTPORN II - which I had a copy of many years ago (I
>was about 16 and considered it fairly raunchy then). It was odd because
>for a piece of I-F about sex it really was more like a strategy game (hmm...
>If I rub her breasts now then she'll be more aroused but I risk loss
>of erection) at the time it really made me worried that sex would be
>very difficult indeed - especially without the STATUS command which I
>assumed woudl be unavailable in real life.
ROFL!!
Seriously, though, this brings to mind something that my purient side has
been pondering since the start of this thread- the idea of something like
a text-based version of "Virtual Valerie" or the old "MacPlaymate" (any
body know where to find a copy of that one :-).
As I see it, you would have a game with very few situations/rooms, a very
well-developed (and well-endowed :-) NPC, and an interesting selection of
objects. The object would be the seduction of the NPC.
The question, of course, is would there be any interest in such a thing.
<<<John>>>
Matthew T. Russotto
In article <m3u3mx4...@ue801di.lrz-muenchen.de>,
Florian Beck <floria...@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
}The good characters often are simply boring anyway.
}
}Anything that features "definitely good" and "definitely bad" usually is not too
}interesting. It lacks the very essential of the dramatic paradigm: Two
}sides that are right in their own way.
I can think of a few exceptions from film off the top of my head --
_Star Wars_ and the _Empire Strikes Back_ have the "definitely bad"
galactic empire doing all sorts of definitely bad things, but neither
the films nor the Empire were boring. _Silence of the Lambs_ had
Hannibal Lecter, whose only "good" was not in the sense
of morality but in the sense of competence -- yet the film manipulates
at least some of the audience into cheering his actions at the end.
}And then: The *really* bad guys. I doubt i would want to play this.
}The *real* bad guys are not the mass murderers and serial killers.
}But the guys who rape the girl they had a date with. Those who beat
}their wives and children. Those gangs that beat up Jews or
}homosexuals. Those who turn in their neighbours for smoking
}dope. Would you want to play *that*?
No, but I don't think they are any WORSE than the mass murderers and
serial killers. They are just the boring bad guys. Playing a serial killer
probably holds some fascination for people -- judging from the
comments here, it must. Playing a thug or a snitch probably doesn't.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
sharvey
Matthew T. Russotto (russ...@wanda.vf.pond.com) wrote:
: No, but I don't think they are any WORSE than the mass murderers and
: serial killers. They are just the boring bad guys. Playing a serial killer
: probably holds some fascination for people -- judging from the
: comments here, it must. Playing a thug or a snitch probably doesn't.
I'm thinking about the "romantic" concept of playing something like a
mobster - you have to admit that there's a certain bit of glamor to a
character like this. Admittedly, a lot of these characters (esp. in the
movies) end up dead or imprisoned, but a lot of people like them.
For example, everyone _loved_ Vincent in Pulp Fiction (John Travolta).
Why? Because he was cool, wore a sharp suit, carried a big gun, and
generally did and said whatever he wanted. The fact that he was a hired
killer and a heroin shooter never really mattered in terms of the
audience's enjoyment of the character.
On the other hand, there are plenty of films with characters with similar
traits: killers, IV drug users, etc., and they're not nearly as
charasmatic. It's all in the presentation.
Now, if you wanted to choose a movie character-killer to play in an IF
game, who would you choose? A clear sociopath like Amon Goethe (Ralph
Fiennes) in Schindler's List, or a charasmatic gangster like Mr. White
(Harvey Keitel) in Reservoir Dogs?
The way I see it, one is "fun" the other is "scary".
Comments?
Scott
--
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Drone
Florian Beck wrote:
>
> And then: The *really* bad guys. I doubt i would want to play this.
> But the guys who rape the girl they had a date with. Those who beat
> their wives and children. Those gangs that beat up Jews or
> homosexuals. Those who turn in their neighbours for smoking
> dope. Would you want to play *that*?
>
I have to admit I am baffled by the idea that mass murderers and serial killers do
not fall into this group. The fact that a certain crime lends itself better to media
sensation or is more interesting psychologically should not, IMHO, change it's
position on a scale of morality. In fact, that's part of the point of films like NBK
that focus on such crimes.
Put a mass murder victim in a room with a battered wife, and ask them which crime
was more evil. Oh, sorry, you can't. The murder victim would be dead. Aren't those
who hurt and kill innocents always the "*real* bad guys"?
I wouldn't mind seeing an IF story from a murderer's perspective, but if it were to
propose that the murderer is not really as bad as a date-rapist etc., I think it
would make me very angry and turn me off playing.
On the other hand, if it pulled out all the stops and allowed the PC to be
contemptible for his/her crimes, it would gain my respect.
Drone.
--
"Ah, the drone," says Whistler. "A drone is just an agent for unseen interests. An
empty vessel. I don't know how it came to be. 'It's barely alive,' was all you told
me."
--
foxg...@globalserve.net
--
Will Grzanich
In article <33173B...@globalserve.net>, foxg...@globalserve.net
says...
>
>Florian Beck wrote:
>>
>> And then: The *really* bad guys. I doubt i would want to play this.
>> The *real* bad guys are not the mass murderers and serial killers.
>> But the guys who rape the girl they had a date with. Those who beat
>> their wives and children. Those gangs that beat up Jews or
>> homosexuals. Those who turn in their neighbours for smoking
>> dope. Would you want to play *that*?
>>
>
>I have to admit I am baffled by the idea that mass murderers and serial
killers do
>not fall into this group. The fact that a certain crime lends itself
better to media
>sensation or is more interesting psychologically should not, IMHO,
change it's
>position on a scale of morality. In fact, that's part of the point of
films like NBK
>that focus on such crimes.
Hrm...I've thought a lot about this sort of thing, and I've got an idea:
It's generally apparent that, in a work of fiction, it's much more
powerful emotionally to take something very dear to the protagonist away
from him than it is to simply kill him. I think this is because we, as
human beings, seem to have difficulty with the concept of death. It's
something none of us have ever experienced directly, so we can't really
identify with it. Other things, like rape, we seem to have an easier
time with (why, I couldn't tell you).
So when we see, say, a film about a murderer, our minds just sort of go
numb and think, "Oh, he killed that guy...that's too bad, really." and
that's about it. OTOH, we're completely revolted by a rapist or a
similar criminal.
You're right, of course; a serial killer is much, much worse than a
wife-beater; but death is something so often distant from us that we
can't feel extremely strongly about it.
Of course, this is all just speculation on my own feelings; it occurs to
me that I've never lost anyone terribly close to me before...it could be
that when that happens, I'll have a better understanding for death.
Perhaps when I watch a film about a murderer, my thoughts will turn to
the victim and his family, how his wife and his mother and his father and
his son and daughter would feel about his being killed, and I will
understand and be repulsed.
Perhaps.
-Will
--
John Wood
3mx4s...@ue801di.lrz-muenchen.de> <33173B...@globalserve.net> <5f7quu$q...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <150976...@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Date: Saturday, Mar 01, 1997 12.11.34
Organization: None
Reply-To: jo...@elvw.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7
Lines: 39
In article: <5f7quu$q...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> grza...@uiuc.edu (Will Grzanich) writes:
> So when we see, say, a film about a murderer, our minds just sort of go
> numb and think, "Oh, he killed that guy...that's too bad, really." and
> that's about it. OTOH, we're completely revolted by a rapist or a
> similar criminal.
>
> You're right, of course; a serial killer is much, much worse than a
> wife-beater; but death is something so often distant from us that we
> can't feel extremely strongly about it.
>
> Of course, this is all just speculation on my own feelings; it occurs to
> me that I've never lost anyone terribly close to me before...it could be
> that when that happens, I'll have a better understanding for death.
> Perhaps when I watch a film about a murderer, my thoughts will turn to
> the victim and his family, how his wife and his mother and his father and
> his son and daughter would feel about his being killed, and I will
> understand and be repulsed.
I *have* lost people was very close to me (through illness, not murder).
I experience things the same way you describe, and I wonder why. Perhaps
its because the shock and/or grief of the murder victim's family isn't
presented as an important part of the film/book (unless they are out for
revenge, which isn't something I've experienced)? Certainly there's no
point trying to empathise with the murder victims themselves!
I dunno. Which pushes your buttons more, countries with a death penalty
or countries where prisoners are tortured? [Actually I can't think of
any of the latter that don't have the death penalty, but still...]
I could probably play an IF game where the PC goes round shooting people,
but certainly not one where you have to torture NPCs to progress. I felt
distinctly uncomfortable at a certain point in Trinity - I won't spoil
it, but those who've played it or read Brian Moriarty's article will know
what I'm talking about.
Enough.
John
Brad O`Donnell
sharvey wrote:
> Now, if you wanted to choose a movie character-killer to play in an IF
> game, who would you choose?
"Lee" from _2 days in the valley_.
> WEAR GLOVES
With the ball-bearing precision of months of practice, you snap on
a pair of surgical gloves.
> START TIMER
Click. Tictictictic...
--
Brad O'Donnell
"A story is a string of moments, held together by memory."
Laurel Halbany
russ...@wanda.vf.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:
>I can think of a few exceptions from film off the top of my head --
>_Star Wars_ and the _Empire Strikes Back_ have the "definitely bad"
>galactic empire doing all sorts of definitely bad things, but neither
>the films nor the Empire were boring.
Well, correction: the *Empire* was pretty boring. *Darth Vader* was
not boring.
> _Silence of the Lambs_ had
>Hannibal Lecter, whose only "good" was not in the sense
>of morality but in the sense of competence -- yet the film manipulates
>at least some of the audience into cheering his actions at the end.
Geez, who did *you* watch it with? :*
>No, but I don't think they are any WORSE than the mass murderers and
>serial killers. They are just the boring bad guys.
I guess we're having a little definition problem with 'boring.' I
suspect that 'interesting' villains are those with whom the audience
can sympathize or identify, or who have a lot of clever lines and get
away with things.
----------------------------------------------------------
Laurel Halbany
myt...@agora.rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/users/mythago/
sharvey
Laurel Halbany (myt...@agora.rdrop.com) wrote:
: > _Silence of the Lambs_ had
: >Hannibal Lecter, whose only "good" was not in the sense
: >of morality but in the sense of competence -- yet the film manipulates
: >at least some of the audience into cheering his actions at the end.
:
: Geez, who did *you* watch it with? :*
Be real! Tell me you didn't find Dr. Lecter more interesting,
entertaining, and even more sympathetic than "Buffalo Bill". They're both
utterly reprehensible, but Hannibal scores big points with the audience
because of his cleverness and literacy. Buffalo Bill is just a sick,
twisted %#$^ with absolutely _no_ redeeming qualities.
Back to the point, it would be fantastically more fun to "play" someone
like Hannibal than Buffalo Bill. Always scheming, always manipulating, an
impressive command of the language - Bill is just a predator, in
Hannibal's own words. More akin to an animal than a person.
Even so, Hannibal the Cannibal isn't REALLY what I had in mind for a crime
IF game. A more charismatic and less sociopathic criminal - like Gabriel
Byrne's Dean Keaton in The Usual Suspects. Actually, almost _any_ of the
guys in the movie, with the possible exception of Fenster, just because
he's so darn hard to understand. :)
Scott
Magnus Olsson
In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.970302204849.214A-100000@seraphim>,
Cyber-Babushka <u6...@wvnvm.wvnet.edu> wrote:
>Personally, I *cannot* play crime IF.
By "Crime IF", do you mean any IF with a "criminal" theme (including
shodunnit mysteries), or only IF where the player has to commit a crime?
> And I think that games should have
>a warning if winning requires the player to commit an act of violence. I
>don't want to find out the hard way that I didn't want to play this game.
Actually, it was this kind of thing I had in mind when I suggested warnings
on games containing sex and violence. For the record, I do intend to put
a warning on my planned piece of crime IF.
--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se, zeb...@pobox.com)
sharvey
Cyber-Babushka (u6...@wvnvm.wvnet.edu) wrote:
: I have lost family members through illness, and I lost one family member
: (my only brother) by murder. The shock and the grief of a murder victim's
: family is generally not treated realistically in films or books. It's
: very different than losing someone to illness. You can make sense of
: losing someone you love through illness. Murder makes no sense at all and
: leaves only grief, shock, helplessness and rage in its wake.
I sympathise whole-heartedly for your loss, and as the originator of this
thread, let me say that I have no intention of making light of such a
crime. It's hard to mount any kind of continued debate in the face of
such a confession, but I assure you, none of what I've said in the past on
this topic (or will say in the future) is meant to be taken personally.
: Personally, I *cannot* play crime IF. And I think that games should have
: a warning if winning requires the player to commit an act of violence. I
: don't want to find out the hard way that I didn't want to play this game.
: Having lost a loved one to murder, I cannot find recreation in pretending
: to do something similar.
Your viewpoint is duly noted, and yes, LOUD disclaimers and warnings are
planned. Bonni may see this as splitting hairs, and I wouldn't blame her,
but I never intended to write an IF game that requires a player to commit
an act of violence in the "persona" of anyone doing so for purely
personal, emotional reasons. That's too sick even for someone as bitteras
me.
I had planned a crime game about, for example, the Mafia (or a similar
non-ethnically-charged term). I'm not defending murder, but the mafiosi
like the NYC dons lived and died by a kill-or-be-killed code, which made
them no better (or worse) than those who actually pulled the trigger.
It's that aspect I wanted to explore, certainly not the unspeakable horror
of losing a loved one.
Scott
David vun Kannon
Magnus Olsson wrote:
In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.970302204849.214A-100000@seraphim>,
Cyber-Babushka <u6...@wvnvm.wvnet.edu> wrote:
>Personally, I *cannot* play crime IF.
By "Crime IF", do you mean any IF with a "criminal" theme (including
shodunnit mysteries), or only IF where the player has to commit a
crime?
> And I think that games should have
>a warning if winning requires the player to commit an act of
violence. I
>don't want to find out the hard way that I didn't want to play this
game.
Actually, it was this kind of thing I had in mind when I suggested
warnings
on games containing sex and violence. For the record, I do intend to
put
a warning on my planned piece of crime IF.
--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se, zeb...@pobox.com)
Though it's only marginal IF, the site
http://www.spe.sony.com/Pictures/SonyMovies/features/donnie.html
features a branching hypertext game based on the movie "Donnie Brasco".
Shouldn't take you longer than five minutes to play. The PC is the
undercover FBI agent, and in the course of his tough guy career he must
do several dirty deeds. Is this objectionable as Crime IF? What about
all the petty pilfering and grue-slaying that goes on?
David vun Kannon
Dancer
John Holder wrote:
Cyber-Babushka (u6...@wvnvm.wvnet.edu) wrote:
: vi is the One True Editor! EMACS is the anti-Christ! Repent!
Repent!!!!
: Repent before it's too late!!!!
_Preach_ it, sister! Amen!
(hey, I really do code all my HTML in vi. Phhpt! ;)
--
John Holder (jho...@frii.com) /\
http://www.frii.com/~jholder/
UNIX Specialist, Paranet Inc. <--> Raytracing|Fractals|Interactive
Fiction
http://www.paranet.com/ \/ Homebrewing|Strange
Attractors
Hmm. That's funny, so do I... In fact, we were interviewing for a new
WWW page designer. None of the first group of candidates even _knew_ any
HTML, let alone that it could be written without an HTML editor.
D
sharvey
David vun Kannon (dvunk...@iddis.com) wrote:
: Though it's only marginal IF, the site
: http://www.spe.sony.com/Pictures/SonyMovies/features/donnie.html
: features a branching hypertext game based on the movie "Donnie Brasco".
: Shouldn't take you longer than five minutes to play. The PC is the
: undercover FBI agent, and in the course of his tough guy career he must
: do several dirty deeds. Is this objectionable as Crime IF? What about
: all the petty pilfering and grue-slaying that goes on?
Well, I'd call it "objectionable" in the sense that FBI agents and other
law-enforcement types are supposed to uphold the law, not break it.
For me, it's a little too Orwellian to have federal agents "bend the
rules" to get a conviction. Such stories in the media sicken me, and I
don't think I'd like to step into the skin of someone playing fast and
loose with people's rights when they're charged with upholding those
same rights.
On that note, I'd much prefer playing the part of a criminal - there's no
hypocrisy. If you're a criminal, so be it. You commit crimes, deprive
people of their property and liberty, and you own up to it. To instead
say "I'm a law-enforcement officer and the protector of the weak and
innocent", but be willing to play by the same rules as those you're
pursuing... that's just wrong.
Now, give me a criminal who's up against one of these sleazy federales,
and I'm all over it. It'd be a great game.
Scott
--
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Martin Frost
In article <5fk6ef$i...@eve.enteract.com> NoJunkmai...@enteract.com writes:
>David vun Kannon (dvunk...@iddis.com) wrote:
>On that note, I'd much prefer playing the part of a criminal - there's no
>hypocrisy. If you're a criminal, so be it. You commit crimes, deprive
>people of their property and liberty, and you own up to it. To instead
>say "I'm a law-enforcement officer and the protector of the weak and
>innocent", but be willing to play by the same rules as those you're
>pursuing... that's just wrong.
>Now, give me a criminal who's up against one of these sleazy federales,
>and I'm all over it. It'd be a great game.
How about a criminal who's trying to go straight (after being let out of
prison?) and some sleazy Fed keeps trying to set him up, believing that
he's probably doing something illegal anyway. A kind of cross between
"Carlito's Way" and several other films.
Except that then you're back to the good/bad sort of territory, just with
good and bad different from how the average bystander in the story (who
sees the Fed as the cause of good banging up the nasty villian) would see
it.
It would probably need a lot of work to be effective, and to keep it feeling
natural would likely need a plot with many endings.
Hmmmm.
Martin