IF Comp 2008

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Stephen Granade

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Apr 19, 2008, 4:09:25 PM4/19/08
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There will indeed be another annual IF Competition this year. The
website is now up at

http://ifcomp.org/comp08/

and authors can sign up if they are so inclined. Everyone else is
welcome to donate prizes for the competition.

Stephen

--
Stephen Granade
stephen...@granades.com

u...@mail.ru

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Apr 19, 2008, 11:35:53 PM4/19/08
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On 20 апр, 00:09, Stephen Granade <stephen-use...@granades.com> wrote:
> There will indeed be another annual IF Competition this year. The
> website is now up at
>
>  http://ifcomp.org/comp08/
>
> and authors can sign up if they are so inclined. Everyone else is
> welcome to donate prizes for the competition.
>
> Stephen

Oh, and the new, "more modern" logo is cool! Seems like Jimmy set an
example with his recent changes on SPAG:).

Mason Cox

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Apr 20, 2008, 6:36:43 AM4/20/08
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On Apr 20, 1:35 pm, u...@mail.ru wrote:
> Oh, and the new, "more modern" logo is cool! Seems like Jimmy set an
> example with his recent changes on SPAG:).

I agree, I love the new look! Especially the compass, it just . . .
works! I also updated the IF Wiki late this morning, as soon as I saw
this announcement (I just didn't get around to posting here).

Conrad

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Apr 20, 2008, 9:32:30 AM4/20/08
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On Apr 19, 4:09 pm, Stephen Granade <stephen-use...@granades.com>
wrote:

>
> and authors can sign up if they are so inclined. Everyone else is
> welcome to donate prizes for the competition.


Hey, I'm going through the archives, and I notice last year was a
pretty good haul, prize-wise -- very cool to see the momentum
building.

But the one that really got me was this, from the 12th competition
('06):

"The Golden Banana of Discord, Mark II, which is to go to the game
whose scores have the highest standard deviation, donated by Zach
Flynn."

Dare I ask, who won the Golden Banana of Discord, Mark II? And is a
picture of said banana accessable online (or did it dissolve into
golden dust)?


Conrad.

u...@mail.ru

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Apr 20, 2008, 10:23:29 AM4/20/08
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You can find most answers to your questions here:
http://ifwiki.org/index.php/Golden_Banana_of_Discord

Valentine


James Cunningham

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Apr 20, 2008, 10:31:04 AM4/20/08
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On 2008-04-20 09:32:30 -0400, Conrad <conra...@gmail.com> said:

> But the one that really got me was this, from the 12th competition
> ('06):
>
> "The Golden Banana of Discord, Mark II, which is to go to the game
> whose scores have the highest standard deviation, donated by Zach
> Flynn."
>
> Dare I ask, who won the Golden Banana of Discord, Mark II? And is a
> picture of said banana accessable online (or did it dissolve into
> golden dust)?

Hm. It doesn't list it in the prizes chosen page, but taking a look at
the results it must've been Bill Powell with MANALIVE, standard
deviation 2.34. It's not listed in the prizes for 2007, though, so I
suppose this banana's died with him.

Anyway, thanks for giving me that opportunity to look. I'd forgotten
what a marvelous comp that was, the top ten full of games that could
easily have won first. I hope this year's half as good.

Best,
James

Ron Newcomb

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Apr 20, 2008, 7:19:56 PM4/20/08
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I think the fun informality of the logo is what works so well.

Well done, Stephen!

-R

Stephen Granade

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Apr 21, 2008, 10:45:33 AM4/21/08
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Ron Newcomb <psc...@yahoo.com> writes:

Glad you like the new logo. To give credit where it's due, the logo
was designed by Misty Granade.

JDC

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Apr 21, 2008, 11:38:37 AM4/21/08
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On Apr 20, 6:36 am, Mason Cox <mason....@bigpond.com> wrote:
> I agree, I love the new look! Especially the compass, it just . . .
> works!

It isn't working for me! On my desktop computer at home the compass
points pretty close to north, but on my office computer it's pointing
south, and on my laptop it's all over the place...

(The new site design does look good, btw.)

-JDC

Conrad

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Apr 21, 2008, 12:14:33 PM4/21/08
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On Apr 21, 11:38 am, JDC <jd...@psu.edu> wrote:
> On Apr 20, 6:36 am, Mason Cox <mason....@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> > I agree, I love the new look! Especially the compass, it just . . .
> > works!
>
> It isn't working for me! On my desktop computer at home the compass
> points pretty close to north, but on my office computer it's pointing
> south, and on my laptop it's all over the place...

An easy omen to construe: You lack direction.

Thanks to all those who answered my questions about the Banana of
Discord. The pics were especially telling.


Conrad.

Ron Newcomb

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Apr 21, 2008, 3:41:09 PM4/21/08
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On Apr 21, 8:38 am, JDC <jd...@psu.edu> wrote:
> It isn't working for me! On my desktop computer at home the compass
> points pretty close to north, but on my office computer it's pointing
> south, and on my laptop it's all over the place...
> -JDC

Are you on Windows? Have you tried rebooting?

-R :)

Paul J. Furio

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Apr 21, 2008, 10:02:55 PM4/21/08
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I signed up. Now I must get cracking.

vaporware

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Apr 25, 2008, 8:22:03 PM4/25/08
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On Apr 19, 12:09 pm, Stephen Granade <stephen-use...@granades.com>
wrote:

> There will indeed be another annual IF Competition this year. The
> website is now up at
>
> http://ifcomp.org/comp08/
>
> and authors can sign up if they are so inclined. Everyone else is
> welcome to donate prizes for the competition.

A few people have brought up the idea of entering Guncho realms in the
IF Comp. It raises some logistical questions, and if realms are going
to be entered in anything, maybe there should be a separate
competition... but the rules of the IF Comp don't seem to explicitly
forbid a game that has to be played online instead of downloaded.

Any thoughts?

vw

u...@mail.ru

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Apr 25, 2008, 11:03:59 PM4/25/08
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On 26 Apr, 04:22, vaporware <jmcg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> A few people have brought up the idea of entering Guncho realms in the
> IF Comp. It raises some logistical questions, and if realms are going
> to be entered in anything, maybe there should be a separate
> competition... but the rules of the IF Comp don't seem to explicitly
> forbid a game that has to be played online instead of downloaded.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> vw

I know at least of one precedent. In 2002, a game was entered that you
had to play online (Sun and Moon by by David Brain).

Valentine

Andrew Plotkin

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Apr 25, 2008, 11:52:04 PM4/25/08
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Here, u...@mail.ru wrote:
> On 26 Apr, 04:22, vaporware <jmcg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > A few people have brought up the idea of entering Guncho realms in the
> > IF Comp. It raises some logistical questions, and if realms are going
> > to be entered in anything, maybe there should be a separate
> > competition... but the rules of the IF Comp don't seem to explicitly
> > forbid a game that has to be played online instead of downloaded.
>
> I know at least of one precedent. In 2002, a game was entered that you
> had to play online (Sun and Moon by by David Brain).

And recently people have complained that that game is no longer
playable.

I don't know that the rules ought to forbid it, but the spirit says to
me that IFComp authors should give thought to "will my game be
playable in N years?" This community promotes digital preservation in
a way which is almost invisible -- until you think about other
fifteen-year-old online traditions, and the kind of preservation they
*don't* all have.

So, does it make sense to download a Guncho realm from the Archive and
play it in an offline interpreter (also downloaded from the Archive)?
Is there a way that can make sense?

--Z

--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
It's a nice distinction to tell American soldiers (and Iraqis) to die in
Iraq for the sake of democracy (ignoring the question of whether it's
*working*) and then whine that "The Constitution is not a suicide pact."

vaporware

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Apr 26, 2008, 12:27:36 AM4/26/08
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On Apr 25, 7:52 pm, Andrew Plotkin <erkyr...@eblong.com> wrote:
> Here, u...@mail.ru wrote:
> > On 26 Apr, 04:22, vaporware <jmcg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > A few people have brought up the idea of entering Guncho realms in the
> > > IF Comp. It raises some logistical questions, and if realms are going
> > > to be entered in anything, maybe there should be a separate
> > > competition... but the rules of the IF Comp don't seem to explicitly
> > > forbid a game that has to be played online instead of downloaded.
>
> > I know at least of one precedent. In 2002, a game was entered that you
> > had to play online (Sun and Moon by by David Brain).
>
> And recently people have complained that that game is no longer
> playable.
>
> I don't know that the rules ought to forbid it, but the spirit says to
> me that IFComp authors should give thought to "will my game be
> playable in N years?" This community promotes digital preservation in
> a way which is almost invisible -- until you think about other
> fifteen-year-old online traditions, and the kind of preservation they
> *don't* all have.
>
> So, does it make sense to download a Guncho realm from the Archive and
> play it in an offline interpreter (also downloaded from the Archive)?
> Is there a way that can make sense?

Sort of. The author could compile a standalone version using the
Guncho Mockup extension, and it would run in any standard interpreter.

Whether it'd still be *playable* is another question: a realm is
likely to reward, and possibly even require, being played by more than
one person at once. If you're playing the standalone version, you're
not going to have the same experience.

That brings up some other issues. If you're playing a multiplayer
game, your experience will depend partly on the other people who are
playing it with you. How do you account for that in your rating?
(Multiplayer video games are reviewed all the time, so it wouldn't be
insurmountable, but it would be a new wrinkle for the Comp.)

Also, if the game requires two players, is it fair to play with
someone else who's played it before, or do you both have to be playing
for the first time?

vw

JDC

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Apr 26, 2008, 12:37:44 AM4/26/08
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On Apr 26, 12:27 am, vaporware <jmcg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That brings up some other issues. If you're playing a multiplayer
> game, your experience will depend partly on the other people who are
> playing it with you. How do you account for that in your rating?
> (Multiplayer video games are reviewed all the time, so it wouldn't be
> insurmountable, but it would be a new wrinkle for the Comp.)
>
> Also, if the game requires two players, is it fair to play with
> someone else who's played it before, or do you both have to be playing
> for the first time?

Another issue: I imagine that a number of multiplayer games might
benefit from multiple playthroughs (for instance, a game in which the
various players assume different roles, where you might want to try
them all). I'd love to see a comp for Guncho realms, but it might be
better as a separate event, rather than trying to judge them against
the other IFComp entries. There are some other logistical things you'd
probably want to work out as well, such as arranging groups to play
together, etc.

-JDC

Jim Aikin

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Apr 26, 2008, 12:46:43 AM4/26/08
to
vaporware wrote:
>
> A few people have brought up the idea of entering Guncho realms in the
> IF Comp. It raises some logistical questions, and if realms are going
> to be entered in anything, maybe there should be a separate
> competition... but the rules of the IF Comp don't seem to explicitly
> forbid a game that has to be played online instead of downloaded.
>
> Any thoughts?

Is it realistic (I haven't looked at Guncho) for people to rate a realm
after two hours of play? Because that's more or less a requirement.

--JA

vaporware

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Apr 26, 2008, 1:21:40 AM4/26/08
to

Well, there's no reason why a realm couldn't be as long or as short as
any other IF. As JDC points out, it could require multiple
playthroughs to fully experience a realm, but then that's true of many
single-player games as well.

vw

Stephen Granade

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Apr 26, 2008, 9:36:15 AM4/26/08
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Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> writes:

> Here, u...@mail.ru wrote:
>> On 26 Apr, 04:22, vaporware <jmcg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > A few people have brought up the idea of entering Guncho realms in the
>> > IF Comp. It raises some logistical questions, and if realms are going
>> > to be entered in anything, maybe there should be a separate
>> > competition... but the rules of the IF Comp don't seem to explicitly
>> > forbid a game that has to be played online instead of downloaded.
>>
>> I know at least of one precedent. In 2002, a game was entered that you
>> had to play online (Sun and Moon by by David Brain).
>
> And recently people have complained that that game is no longer
> playable.
>
> I don't know that the rules ought to forbid it, but the spirit says to
> me that IFComp authors should give thought to "will my game be
> playable in N years?" This community promotes digital preservation in
> a way which is almost invisible -- until you think about other
> fifteen-year-old online traditions, and the kind of preservation they
> *don't* all have.

The comp also perserves the games *as they were entered*. Any updates
to the games go in new directories, and I've turned down requests to
remove games from the archive after the competition is over.

u...@mail.ru

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Apr 26, 2008, 11:23:51 AM4/26/08
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On 26 Apr, 17:36, Stephen Granade <stephen-use...@granades.com> wrote:
>
> The comp also perserves the games *as they were entered*. Any updates
> to the games go in new directories, and I've turned down requests to
> remove games from the archive after the competition is over.
>
> Stephen

...which, by the way, automatically brings up another issue: how can
you check, with an online game, whether it had been updated after the
Competition had begun, or not?

This creates a breeding ground for foul play especially now, since the
"no discussion" rule has been bent and authors of online games
theoretically could profit from player feedback, modifying and
improving their works.

Valentine

vaporware

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Apr 26, 2008, 4:59:01 PM4/26/08
to

This could be handled in coordination with the Guncho admins (i.e. me)
by making a copy of each entered realm which couldn't be edited by its
author. Making multiple copies would also allow different groups to
judge the realm in parallel.

In order for the realms to be archived as they were entered, I suppose
the authors would have to agree to archive the source code once
judging ends, since the server's compiled version wouldn't be useful
to anyone.

vw

Stephen Granade

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Apr 28, 2008, 3:16:42 PM4/28/08
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vaporware <jmc...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Apr 26, 8:23 am, u...@mail.ru wrote:
>> On 26 Apr, 17:36, Stephen Granade <stephen-use...@granades.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > The comp also perserves the games *as they were entered*. Any updates
>> > to the games go in new directories, and I've turned down requests to
>> > remove games from the archive after the competition is over.
>>
>> > Stephen
>>
>> ...which, by the way, automatically brings up another issue: how can
>> you check, with an online game, whether it had been updated after the
>> Competition had begun, or not?
>>
>> This creates a breeding ground for foul play especially now, since the
>> "no discussion" rule has been bent and authors of online games
>> theoretically could profit from player feedback, modifying and
>> improving their works.

The way I did it before was by having a local copy that I could check
against the currently-running one.

> This could be handled in coordination with the Guncho admins (i.e. me)
> by making a copy of each entered realm which couldn't be edited by its
> author. Making multiple copies would also allow different groups to
> judge the realm in parallel.

Would it be possible to host such a copy on the competition server
itself, or on a specific guncho sub-domain for competition games? That
could answer both the issue of authors changing entered games and
having the games available after the fact.

vaporware

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Apr 28, 2008, 6:12:09 PM4/28/08
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On Apr 28, 12:16 pm, Stephen Granade <stephen-use...@granades.com>
wrote:

Sure - running a second server on guncho.com would be easiest.

(I could try to work something out if you'd rather run it yourself,
but you'd probably need to set up a Windows box. A stripped-down
server could possibly run on Linux with Mono, but I haven't tested
that, and in any case there are some licensing issues to worry about
before I can distribute anything.)

vw

Mark Tilford

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Apr 28, 2008, 10:17:14 PM4/28/08
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Do you have a backup of Sun and Moon?

Stephen Granade

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Apr 30, 2008, 10:11:51 AM4/30/08
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Mark Tilford <ralphm...@gmail.com> writes:

> Do you have a backup of Sun and Moon?

I should, but between then and now I switched servers, and can no
longer find my backup copy.

Dannii

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Apr 30, 2008, 8:00:21 PM4/30/08
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On Apr 29, 8:12 am, vaporware <jmcg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sure - running a second server on guncho.com would be easiest.
>
> (I could try to work something out if you'd rather run it yourself,
> but you'd probably need to set up a Windows box. A stripped-down
> server could possibly run on Linux with Mono, but I haven't tested
> that, and in any case there are some licensing issues to worry about
> before I can distribute anything.)
>
> vw

Honestly, I don't feel guncho realms would be appropriate for the
comp. But that's up to the comp's organisers to decide.

Stephen Granade

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Apr 30, 2008, 9:27:10 PM4/30/08
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Dannii <curiou...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Apr 29, 8:12 am, vaporware <jmcg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Sure - running a second server on guncho.com would be easiest.
>>
>> (I could try to work something out if you'd rather run it yourself,
>> but you'd probably need to set up a Windows box. A stripped-down
>> server could possibly run on Linux with Mono, but I haven't tested
>> that, and in any case there are some licensing issues to worry about
>> before I can distribute anything.)
>

> Honestly, I don't feel guncho realms would be appropriate for the
> comp. But that's up to the comp's organisers to decide.

Why is that?

Dannii

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May 4, 2008, 12:42:14 AM5/4/08
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On May 1, 11:27 am, Stephen Granade <stephen-use...@granades.com>
wrote:
> stephen-use...@granades.com

I have a suspicion Guncho will significantly broaden what "interactive
fiction" means. Would hypertexts, CYOA or conventional muds be
appropriate for the IF comp? A fully developed Guncho realm that
really uses the technology for all its weath will be interactive as
these all are, but I wonder if it will still be IF like it is today,
or whether it will be something else.

Stephen Granade

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May 4, 2008, 12:12:51 PM5/4/08
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Dannii <curiou...@gmail.com> writes:

> On May 1, 11:27 am, Stephen Granade <stephen-use...@granades.com>
> wrote:
>> Dannii <curiousdan...@gmail.com> writes:
>> > On Apr 29, 8:12 am, vaporware <jmcg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> Sure - running a second server on guncho.com would be easiest.
>>
>> >> (I could try to work something out if you'd rather run it yourself,
>> >> but you'd probably need to set up a Windows box. A stripped-down
>> >> server could possibly run on Linux with Mono, but I haven't tested
>> >> that, and in any case there are some licensing issues to worry about
>> >> before I can distribute anything.)
>>
>> > Honestly, I don't feel guncho realms would be appropriate for the
>> > comp. But that's up to the comp's organisers to decide.
>>
>> Why is that?
>

> I have a suspicion Guncho will significantly broaden what "interactive
> fiction" means. Would hypertexts, CYOA or conventional muds be
> appropriate for the IF comp? A fully developed Guncho realm that
> really uses the technology for all its weath will be interactive as
> these all are, but I wonder if it will still be IF like it is today,
> or whether it will be something else.

It may move into something else, and if enough people judging the
competition don't feel it's IF, they'll likely vote it low. That's
what's happened in the past with some of the more CYOA efforts. For
edge cases like that and Guncho, I'd rather the judges decide as a
group whether it fits their definition of what should be in the
competition.

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