A new approach to conversations

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Herbert Mouse

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Feb 6, 2007, 11:16:47 PM2/6/07
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I'm currently doing the preliminary work for a game I hope to
eventually to create. Thus far, I've made the storyline tree and the
puzzles for several chapters. I've drawn a few maps and written the
introduction. I'm at a point now where I need to start thinking about
how to write the transcripts. That's where I ran into the question of
conversation. I went and read quite a few articles on it, (from this
group, Emily Short's page, and brasslantern.org), and tested out some
games I hadn't played based on them to see how others have handled
conversation. However I did not see anything that quite fit for both
qualities of allowing for nicely-flowing conversations and player
freedom to the degree that I wanted. This shouldn't surprise too many
of you, because in your posts many of you have expressed the same
concern. Anyway, I came up with a perspective that I have not seen
expressed elsewhere; which at first glance appears to have the ability
to satisfy both of these requirements for the game I'm writing, and
others might want to consider it.

>From my perspective this is a variation on the "how much should we
simulate" problem. Just as it isn't necessary to simulate every floor
of a building to convey that they exist, it also shouldn't be
necessary to simulate every possible conversation a PC and NPC could
engage in. The main difference is that when we're trying to avoid
simulating the building, we have to use these tricks to explain why
the player isn't doing something, (as in walking into every possible
room a real building would have). In a conversation, we need to switch
our thinking and instead come up with tricks to explain why the NPCs
aren't doing something, (as in answering every possible conversation
point a player could bring up).

As I look at the 5 conversations that currently exist in my storyline,
I'm quickly coming up with tricks to do this in conjunction with an
ask/tell system. For example sake, I'll list them,

1. A conversation with a woman who happens to be very drunk. - The
trick here would be if the player asks about something I'm not
prepared for the woman, being drunk, seems to be having trouble
following the conversation, and immediately changes it.
2. A conversation with a police detective who is interrogating the PC.
- Easy "I'll ask the questions around here." or "When I want to know
about that I'll ask you. Now tell me about..."
3. A conversation amidst a group of friends playing poker. - "Will you
quit interrupting, Joe's trying to tell a story here." Frank says. Joe
adds "Yes, please don't interrupt unless you've got a question about
the game... or about my story that is" Rob pipes up "No need to ask
any questions about that. Just wait half an hour until or so and he'll
cycle through back to that story for the 4th time tonight." "What can
I say, people like my stories. Everybody who comes in says 'Joe, tell
me one of your stories again'" "Well you could get some new ones"...
etc.
4. A possible conversation against an adversary looking for a fight.
"Boy, I don't care about that, I'm getting ready to pound you."
5. A conversation with a receptionist. - Before she can respond the
phone rings. Amy answers it and talks for 5 minutes before hanging up.
"I think we just found our witness!" she says excitedly. The next
unscripted conversation attempt from the player gets a "You know,
instead of wasting time talking about that, you should go try and find
that witness."

The NPCs meanwhile would be dynamic and every turn or at least close
to that would say something or perform some action; many of which
would be obvious prompts for conversation.

The other point to making this work is to limit the amount of time the
player is around the NPC trying to converse. I'm already using time
limits in every chapter, which can shift around based on the PCs
actions. If a player insists on asking the same question that I'm not
ready for 5 times, I'll just end the scene there and have factors
outside the players control advance him to the next part of the
storyline, (such as having the cops show up to arrest him earlier than
usual). As a player, I think I'd prefer that to either a typically
unsmooth ask/tell conversation or using a menu system. And I wouldn't
complain too much about the fact that when I played it again I had a
few more turns to ask questions when my questions were different.

One other idea I'm kicking around is allowing the player to use the
alternative commands like "flirt with", "intimidate", etc. These would
be something I would tell the player is an option when it's available,
and give a reason why it isn't available other times. "You consider
boasting about your score, or flattering him on his own." "You really
are not in any mood to flirt at the moment."

So what do you all think. Would you like to see this kind of
conversation in a game? Is it technically feasible?

Herbert Mouse

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Feb 6, 2007, 11:24:56 PM2/6/07
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I forgot to mention that this would include nodes, and that if the
player asked about something more times than there was a needed node
for they would be gently hinted away from asking about it further, and
then taken away bodily if they do.


Herbert Mouse

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Feb 7, 2007, 2:32:27 PM2/7/07
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Sorry to keep replying to my own post, but I have a nagging feeling
that I wasn't at all clear in describing how this would work. So I
wanted to put up an example of how this effect might be implemented. I
did add one new thing to this, and that's having the PC's words vary
between being written explicitly and left out. I think it makes the
conversation more interesting to read/play through and hope it isn't
too confusing.


The scene - A bait and tackle shop.

The necessary purpose of this conversation - To purchase a fishing
pole. (The story has already informed the player that this is why he's
here.)

The other potential purposes of this conversation. - To build up the
legend of John Harvey and to cast doubt on the man-eating fish story.
If the player chooses to engage in conversation and follows the
obvious prompts, they will hear about these things. If not they won't,
which is ok because they are not absolutely necessary to proceeding in
the game.

Prompting a player back to useful conversation - If the player is
wandering away from useful conversation, three prompts are used. First
the proprietor asks if there's anything he can help him find. Next a
customer comes in and makes mention of a man named John and trying to
break his record before leaving. Third is the proprietor ask if
there's anything (else) the PC needs to know about the pole.

Forcibly ending the conversation - If the player does not return to
useful conversational topics, (either because they've exhausted all
the conversation nodes or they've missed them), the phone will ring
and the proprietor will be unable to converse except to tell the
player the price of the pole. If the player character is still there 6
turns or so after the proprietor has answered the phone his wife comes
into the shop and drags him out of it.

Case #1 - Everything goes smoothly.

>in
You enter the shop.

Bait and Tackle Shop
This small store offers the standard fare of fishing gear, most of
which you already own and is of no interest to you. Fortunately
though, it does have one pole of high quality that looks as if it
would be an excellent replacement for the one you no longer have. The
proprietor of the shop is behind the cash register.

>Ask proprietor about fishing pole.
You approach the proprietor. "Can you tell me about this fishing
pole?"
"She's a beaut isn't she? John Harvey uses one just like it."

>Ask proprietor about John.
"Who is John?"
"You must not get up to this lake much. John's managed to get the
record for biggest catch of the year for 6 years in a row now!"

>Ask proprietor about record. {{or ask about John again, or catch}}
"Just how big are these catches?"
"Well John's best is only a 7 pounder so far this year, so some folks
think they have a chance to beat him. Course that's what they thought
last year, until he went out on the last day of the season and realed
in an 18 pound trout. Still, there's only a week left of this year's
season, so a fella with a little luck and a good pole might just find
a way."

>(Ask/Tell) proprietor about man-eating fish.
"I've heard a heap of fish stories over the years, but that has got to
be the biggest."

>(Ask/Tell) proprietor about Ed. {{or man-eating fish again}}
"Mr. Wood seemed pretty shaken when he told me about the lake. I think
he really believes that there's a fish in there that kills people."
The proprietor chuckles a bit "You don't actually believe that windbag
do ya? Last year, Ed was tellin' everyone that there was aliens flyin'
around and zombifyin' dead bodies so that they'd kill us and the
aliens would get our planet. But I'll tell ya what, if there is a man-
eatin' fish in there, this is the pole that can catch it."

>Ask proprietor about pole.
"I can let you have it for $350"
(If you wish to buy it, type "buy pole")

>buy pole.
You buy the pole. The proprietor wishes you luck with it as you head
out of the shop. An hour later, you're standing on the dock behind the
cabin ready to give your new pole a try while your wife is cooking
dinner.

Case #2 - Everything stays smooth if the order is different.

>in
You enter the shop.

Bait and Tackle Shop
This small store offers the standard fare of fishing gear, most of
which you already own and is of no interest to you. Fortunately
though, it does have one pole of high quality that looks as if it
would be an excellent replacement for the one you no longer have. The
proprietor of the shop is behind the cash register.

>(Ask/Tell) proprietor about Ed. {{Or fish}}
You approach the proprietor. "I hear from a man named Ed Wood that
there's a man-eating fish in the lake."
"Ed's quite the character. I've heard a heap of fish stories over the
years, but that has got to be the biggest."

>Ask proprietor about pole.
"She's a beaut isn't she? John Harvey uses one just like it."

>Ask proprietor about John.
"Who is John?"
"You must not get up to this lake much. John's managed to get the
record for biggest catch of the year for 6 years in a row now!"

>(Ask/Tell) proprietor about Ed. {{or man-eating fish again}}
"Mr. Wood seemed pretty shaken when he told me about the lake. I think
he really believes that there's a fish in there that kills people."
The proprietor chuckles a bit "You don't actually believe that windbag
do ya? Last year, Ed was tellin' everyone that there was aliens flyin'
around and zombifyin' dead bodies so that they'd kill us and the
aliens would get our planet. But I'll tell ya what, if there is a man-
eatin' fish in there, this is the pole that can catch it."

>Ask proprietor about record. {{or ask about John again}}
"Just how big are these catches?"
"Well John's best is only a 7 pounder so far this year, so some folks
think they have a chance to beat him. Course that's what they thought
last year, until he went out on the last day of the season and reeled
in an 18 pound trout. Still, there's only a week left of this year's
season, so a fella with a little luck and a good pole might just find
a way."

>Ask proprietor about pole.
"How much for this pole?"
"I can let you have it for $350"
(If you wish to buy it, type "buy pole")

>buy pole.
You buy the pole. The proprietor wishes you luck with it as you head
out of the shop. An hour later, you're standing on the dock behind the
cabin ready to give your new pole a try while your wife is cooking
dinner.

Case #3 - Player isn't feeling especially chatty.

>in
You enter the shop.

Bait and Tackle Shop
This small store offers the standard fare of fishing gear, most of
which you already own and is of no interest to you. Fortunately
though, it does have one pole of high quality that looks as if it
would be an excellent replacement for the one you no longer have. The
proprietor of the shop is behind the cash register.

>buy pole.
You buy the pole. The proprietor wishes you luck with it as you head
out of the shop. An hour later, you're standing on the dock behind the
cabin ready to give your new pole a try while your wife is cooking
dinner.

Case #4 - How this system would handle typical problems.

>in
You enter the shop.

Bait and Tackle Shop
This small store offers the standard fare of fishing gear, most of
which you already own and is of no interest to you. Fortunately
though, it does have one pole of high quality that looks as if it
would be an excellent replacement for the one you no longer have. The
proprietor of the shop is behind the cash register.

>(Ask/Tell) proprietor about Ed.
You approach the proprietor. "I hear from a man named Ed Wood that
there's a man-eating fish in the lake."
"Ed's quite the character. I've heard a heap of fish stories over the
years, but that has got to be the biggest."

>(Ask/Tell) proprietor about Ed.
"Mr. Wood seemed pretty shaken when he told me about the lake. I think
he really believes that there's a fish in there that kills people."
The proprietor chuckles a bit "You don't actually believe that windbag
do ya? Last year, Ed was tellin' everyone that there was aliens flyin'
around and zombifyin' dead bodies so that they'd kill us and the
aliens would get our planet. But I'll tell ya what, if there is a man-
eatin' fish in there, this is the pole that can catch it."

>Tell proprietor about Ed.
You don't know of anything else that you can tell him about Ed.

"Is there somethin' I can help you find?" The proprietor asks after a
short pause.

>Ask proprietor about pole.
"She's a beaut isn't she? John Harvey uses one just like it."

>Ask proprietor about luggage.
Ask fails. (Sorry, you've used a word I don't understand).

>Ask proprietor about suitcase.
"I'm afraid I can't tell you anything about that which you'd find
particularly useful."

A customer comes in and buys some bait. He chats with the proprietor
"So you think this'll help me land a fish big enough to break John's
record for the year?" "We'll see. This might be the year he goes down,
and you're one of the guys that can do it." The customer nods as he
walks past you out of the store.

>Ask proprietor about customer.
"Who is that?"
"He's just one of my regulars."

After a short pause, the proprietor asks "Is there anything else you
needed to know about that pole?"

>Ask proprietor about fish.
Which fish, the man-eating fish or the record fish?

>record
"Just how big are these catches?"
"Well John's best is only a 7 pounder so far this year, so some folks
think they have a chance to beat him. Course that's what they thought
last year, until he went out on the last day of the season and reeled
in an 18 pound trout. Still, there's only a week left of this year's
season, so a fella with a little luck and a good pole might just find
a way."

>buy pole.
You buy the pole. The proprietor wishes you luck with it as you head
out of the shop. An hour later, you're standing on the dock behind the
cabin ready to give your new pole a try while your wife is cooking
dinner.


Case #5 - How this system would handle more difficult problems, or a
player who might be trying to break the game.

>in
You enter the shop.

Bait and Tackle Shop
This small store offers the standard fare of fishing gear, most of
which you already own and is of no interest to you. Fortunately
though, it does have one pole of high quality that looks as if it
would be an excellent replacement for the one you no longer have. The
proprietor of the shop is behind the cash register.

>Ask proprietor about Ed.
You approach the proprietor. "I hear from a man named Ed Wood that
there's a man-eating fish in the lake."
"Ed's quite the character. I've heard a heap of fish stories over the
years, but that has got to be the biggest."

>Ask proprietor about Ed.
"Mr. Wood seemed pretty shaken when he told me about the lake. I think
he really believes that there's a fish in there that kills people."
The proprietor chuckles a bit "You don't actually believe that windbag
do ya? Last year, Ed was tellin' everyone that there was aliens flyin'
around and zombifyin' dead bodies so that they'd kill us and the
aliens would get our planet. But I'll tell ya what, if there is a man-
eatin' fish in there, this is the pole that can catch it."

>Ask proprietor about Ed.
"I'm afraid I can't tell you anything more about him which you'd find
particulary useful."

"Is there somethin' I can help you find?" The proprietor asks after a
short pause.

>Ask proprietor about Ed.
"Like I said, there ain't nothing more I can tell you about him."

A customer comes in and buys some bait. He chats with the proprietor
"So you think this'll help me land a fish big enough to break John's
record for the year?" "We'll see. This might be the year he goes down,
and you're one of the guys that can do it." The customer nods as he
walks past you out of the store.

>Ask proprietor about Ed.
Just as the proprietor starts to answer, the phone rings. He excuses
himself to answer it. From what you can hear of the conversation, it
sounds like he's talking to his daughter who is going through some
sort of crises with her boyfriend.

>Ask proprietor about Ed.
The proprietor is on the phone and doesn't seem able to talk about him
right now.

>Ask proprietor about pole.
The proprietor covers the mouthpiece of the phone for a second while
he whispers "It's $350" to you. He then resumes his talk with his
daughter.
(If you wish to buy it, type "buy pole")

>Ask proprietor about pole.
The proprietor is too busy to answer. Although he could probably ring
up the pole if you want to buy it.

>Ask proprietor about pole.
The proprietor is too busy to answer.

>Ask proprietor about Ed.
The proprietor is too busy to answer.

>exit
You drove all the way out here to go fishing, and there's no way
you're going to leave without a pole.

>Ask proprietor about suitcase.
The proprietor is too busy to answer.

Your wife, looking rather annoyed walks into the store. "Why are you
making me so long wait in the car? I want to get to the cabin so we
can unpack and I can start cooking dinner before it gets dark. Now
just buy a new pole and lets get going."

Not wanting to have your wife annoyed with you all weekend you go
ahead and buy the pole. The proprietor wishes you luck with it as you
head out of the shop. An hour later, you're standing on the dock
behind the cabin ready to give your new pole a try while your wife is
cooking dinner.

Conrad

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Feb 7, 2007, 5:28:36 PM2/7/07
to
On Feb 7, 2:32 pm, "Herbert Mouse" <hombrev...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> The proprietor is too busy to answer.
>
> Your wife, looking rather annoyed walks into the store. "Why are you
> making me so long wait in the car? I want to get to the cabin so we
> can unpack and I can start cooking dinner before it gets dark. Now
> just buy a new pole and lets get going."
>
> Not wanting to have your wife annoyed with you all weekend you go
> ahead and buy the pole. The proprietor wishes you luck with it as you
> head out of the shop. An hour later, you're standing on the dock
> behind the cabin ready to give your new pole a try while your wife is
> cooking dinner.


I really like this basic structure: I think it's a great approach.

This would be my advice:

+ Make your speech attribution clearer.

You say, "Who's John Harvey?"

-- A minor point, but important.

+ Don't write a scene with only one possible outcome. In my opinion,
for a game to be well-designed, each "scene" should have a minimum
of three distinguishable outcomes. The outcomes don't necessarily
need to have an impact on the plot; in your example, it'd be easy
enough
to offer the player 3 different fishing poles, and each time go out of
his
way to mention John Harvey, giving for example:

> Ask owner about cheaper pole

With dimminished enthusiasm, the owner says, "Oh, yeah. This isn't
bad, for people who just fish to blow off steam, who lack true
passion.
Not for someone in the league of John Harvey, but a decent hobbyist's
pole. $220 takes it away."

He keeps mentioning this John Harvey character: you wonder if it's
the name of a local politician or something. You notice an even
cheaper pole behind him.

If you want this pole, type 'BUY $220 POLE.'

> Ask owner about even cheaper pole.

The owner scoffs. "This? This's for kids and grannies who want to
play fisherman. You'll never beat John's record with one of these."


-- so you use the opportunity to repeat the important clues and
also give the player a choice of poles. This could be a strictly
"color" choice, with other fishermen reacting to the player on this
basis later in (for example) the smoky bar:

SMOKY BAR

Other guys look at you as you walk past. You hear one of them
say something about: "...$100 fishing pole..." and they all burst
out laughing.

--Also notice that you can take control of the player character's
inner dialogue to guide the player's attention.


Anyway, in my experience, the *difficulty* with this kind of thing
is to anticipate what kinds of things the players are likely to try
to talk with the characters about.


One thing I've experimented with (in relatively clunky engines) is
to build a pattern of responses to generic kinds of questions,
permitting different characters to give "common knowledge"y
answers.

In a perfect world, the table entries would have idiosynchracy
blanks:

"[CODE1], I don't know much about the letter. You'd have to
ask the postmaster about that."

Then, elsewhere:

Old Yankee: CODE1="Welp"
Kid: CODE1 = "Mister"
Coffeeshop clerk: CODE1 = "Sorry"

-- This is a simple example, but you can see what I'm getting
at.


Conrad.

Poster

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Feb 7, 2007, 7:33:01 PM2/7/07
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You're right in that this is a great way to handle conversation; notably
the tight integration with the storyline and reducing the amount of time
the player is around the NPC are the gears that allow this approach to
work.

However, I'm not sure how you avoid the feeling of every puzzle being
reduced to a timed puzzle. For instance, if you muck around with the
secretary, the cops show up. If you pick your nose for a few turns, the
cops show up. If you try to get out of the area and look down Lonely
Street, the cops show up. Pretty soon the player figures out that he
only has so many turns in which to act, and no matter what he does,
he'll be transported on to the next scene.

This allows the player to basically hit "Z.Z.Z." a few times and then
the game is over -- it ends up requiring no interaction at all on the
player's part.

-- Poster

www.intaligo.com Building, INFORM, Seasons (upcoming!)

Herbert Mouse

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Feb 11, 2007, 4:32:15 PM2/11/07
to
I think you've both brought up some good points. Overall it sounds
like you both like the approach but have a few concerns about the
implementation.

Conrad suggested 2 things.
1 - Make sure the speech attributions are as clear as possible.
Thinking about this, I have to agree that always including things like
"you say" is better than leaving them out like I did in the fishing
shop example.

2 - Offer options. Use these option-selection choices as cues to
prompt the player towards possible conversation lines.
I like it. You're right that more options creates a more interactive
experience, and taking advantage of these options to cue the player to
possible conversation lines seems a very nice combination with the
more blunt prompts that I gave.

Poster expressed a concern about the time limit factor of the
conversations making the player feel as if their actions don't matter.
To get into this more thoroughly...

"However, I'm not sure how you avoid the feeling of every puzzle being
reduced to a timed puzzle."

The first point I'd like to make about this is that not every
conversation is actually going to be part of a puzzle. The fishing
shop one for example was written as one that wouldn't. It is a
conversation the player could have to get some background info that
will come up later, but nothing absolutely essential comes from it. In
the 5 I mentioned from the game I'm working on, 2 of them are parts of
puzzles and 3 exist only for storytelling reasons.

"For instance, if you muck around with the secretary, the cops show
up. If you pick your nose for a few turns, the cops show up. If you
try to get out of the area and look down Lonely Street, the cops show
up. Pretty soon the player figures out that he only has so many turns
in which to act, and no matter what he does, he'll be transported on
to the next scene."

This is a larger criticism of timed puzzles as a rule than just timed
conversations, (which may or may not be puzzles). I agree with you
that the player's actions do need to be important to the game, but I
don't think putting a time limit on puzzles automatically negates
that. In Pac-Man for instance, if you just sit there and do nothing
eventually the ghost monsters will find you and the game progresses. I
use the same logic in my game. The world is dynamic and it's up to you
to interact with it. If you stand there mucking around with the
secretary or picking your nose, yes the police will find and arrest
you. If you duck down Lonely Street, you have a chance at escape.
However, the difference is that my game doesn't simply end when the
police arresting you, rather it leads to a series of possible
continuations to the storyline. This series is completely different
and never loops back together with the series that occurs when you
escape them. This information is also made very clear to the player as
I explain below. Ultimately, I think this offers a greater feeling of
options to the player, as there is not a one and only right way to
progress.

"This allows the player to basically hit "Z.Z.Z." a few times and then
the game is over -- it ends up requiring no interaction at all on the
player's part."

Well, in the game I'm writing you couldn't quite do that. On the first
turn you can't hit Z, you actually have to choose from one of the
options I give to get started..

Main Menu
Please select one of the following options:

1 - Start new story
2 - Start from a specific chapter
3 - Things you should know before playing
4 - Load saved story
5 - Extras

Once you've entered "1" to start the story, than you could hit Z until
Chapter 1 ends with you being picked up by the police. Then you're
given a password and asked which Chapter 2 you wish to play. At this
point you can't hit Z again, you have to select either 2a or 2b.
However, if you stopped to peek at the "Start from a specific chapter"
menu, you'll have noticed that there are also chapters 2c and 2d
listed. Should you go back and try playing these, you'll see they
require a different password. It just may occur to you that you need
to do something different to open these chapters up, perhaps finding a
way to avoid getting arrested.

The simplest walkthrough for the game will look something like
1, z, z, z, z, z, 2a, z, z, z, z, z, z, z, z, z, z, 3a, z, z, z, z, z,
z, z.
This would require virtually no interaction on the player's part, and
I do hope to provide them with an interesting storyline anyway even if
this really is what they do. But those players who do solve the
puzzles presented in each chapter will see a real difference in the
outcome because of it.


Conrad

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Feb 14, 2007, 7:34:54 PM2/14/07
to


I've been ruminating about the Bait Shop scene -- which I know is not
the
real point of the post -- and thought of an additional twist:

The player only has $280 cash, and a RateGougers credit card. In a
prior scene, he has multiply promised his wife he would not, ever,
under
**ANY** circumstances barring total nuclear armegeddon or the car
breaking down, use his RateGougers card.

So:

> BUY DELUX FISHING ROD

"An excellent choice, sir!" the proprietor beams as he takes the
fishing
rod out of the display case. "Yes sir, the very one John Harvey
used."

Oops! -- As you get out your wallet, you realize you have only $280
on
you; you're $40 short.

Your eye catches the small sign by the register. It says: We gladly
accept RateGougers!

"That'll be $320, sir," the proprietor says.


You could have the player try to haggle down the cost of the rod, use
his credit card, or buy the cheaper rod. For whichever choice,
further
contact with the proprietor means more opportunity to sneak important
detail to the player.

And now you're setting up a later follow-up scene, when the wife
opens
the credit card bill.

Along similar lines, the proprietor can keep trying to sell him do-
dads:
live bait, fake bait, tackle (whatever that is), extra spools of
fishing line
(or is that tackle?), and so forth. Again, more contact.

Overall, what I'm getting at isn't so much the credit card itself, but
the
possibility of working in a (minor) conflict in a theme which threads
throughout the game. So suddenly we've given the player a double-
bind, and we've added some emotional punch to the choice.

On Feb 11, 4:32 pm, "Herbert Mouse" <hombrev...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I think you've both brought up some good points. Overall it sounds
> like you both like the approach but have a few concerns about the
> implementation.

Just ideas: it's your game!


> The simplest walkthrough for the game will look something like
> 1, z, z, z, z, z, 2a, z, z, z, z, z, z, z, z, z, z, 3a, z, z, z, z, z,
> z, z.
> This would require virtually no interaction on the player's part, and

> I do hope to provide them with an interesting storyline anyway ...

I'm all about unsolved puzzles failing elegantly and giving feedback
that nudge the player into learning how to solve them correctly; this
sounds like a fine framework to make that happen.


Conrad.

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