Copyright Issues in Interactive Fiction

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u...@mail.ru

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Jan 17, 2007, 1:05:55 PM1/17/07
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Sorry for my request being somewhat off-topic.

I'm planning to quote the lyrics of a popular song in my text
adventure, but I'm not sure whether a) any copyright issues could crop
up in general and b) whether this specific song is copyrighted or in
public domain (till now, my investigations on the Internet weren't too
successful).

Hence, my questions:

a) Does a simple quoting from a song represent an issue, from the
"copyrightical" point of view? (Personally, I think it does, but then
again, I'm not an expert.)

b) Could anyone recommend a resource/service where one could look up
quickly whether a work is public domain or under copyright, and, in the
latter case, who the actual copyright holder is?

Thank you, and sorry again for bugging you with questions that only
have a mediate relation to interactive fiction.

Valentine

Timofei Shatrov

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Jan 17, 2007, 1:32:18 PM1/17/07
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On 17 Jan 2007 10:05:55 -0800, u...@mail.ru tried to confuse everyone with this
message:

>Sorry for my request being somewhat off-topic.
>
>I'm planning to quote the lyrics of a popular song in my text
>adventure, but I'm not sure whether a) any copyright issues could crop
>up in general and b) whether this specific song is copyrighted or in
>public domain (till now, my investigations on the Internet weren't too
>successful).
>
>Hence, my questions:
>
>a) Does a simple quoting from a song represent an issue, from the
>"copyrightical" point of view? (Personally, I think it does, but then
>again, I'm not an expert.)

There are sites that contain complete lyrics of every song and no one sues them.
Your game would bother the copyright holders even less, I would assume.

>b) Could anyone recommend a resource/service where one could look up
>quickly whether a work is public domain or under copyright, and, in the
>latter case, who the actual copyright holder is?

Wikipedia. You can get a good explanation of various free/non-free licenses and
fair use if you search deep.

For example various types of public domain (for images) are listed here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_copyright_tags/Public_domain

On the other hand, the article about public domain is almost useless :)

--
|Don't believe this - you're not worthless ,gr---------.ru
|It's us against millions and we can't take them all... | ue il |
|But we can take them on! | @ma |
| (A Wilhelm Scream - The Rip) |______________|

d...@pobox.com

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Jan 17, 2007, 1:34:56 PM1/17/07
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On Jan 17, 6:05 pm, u...@mail.ru wrote:
> Sorry for my request being somewhat off-topic.
>
> I'm planning to quote the lyrics of a popular song in my text
> adventure, but I'm not sure whether a) any copyright issues could crop
> up in general and b) whether this specific song is copyrighted or in
> public domain (till now, my investigations on the Internet weren't too
> successful).
>
> Hence, my questions:
>
> a) Does a simple quoting from a song represent an issue, from the
> "copyrightical" point of view? (Personally, I think it does, but then
> again, I'm not an expert.)

Yes.

> b) Could anyone recommend a resource/service where one could look up
> quickly whether a work is public domain or under copyright, and, in the
> latter case, who the actual copyright holder is?

No. In general it's not possible. Interested parties have gone to
great lengths to determine the copyright status of some works (for
example Howard Sherman's Conan stories), not always successfully.

I myself wrote something 6 months ago and now have no idea who the
copyright holder is (it was work for hire so it was never my
copyright). And I'd like to get hold of them (I have a sneaking
suspicion that the copyright holder has, in fact, no idea that they own
the rights in this thing).

drj

Jeff Nyman

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Jan 17, 2007, 2:41:49 PM1/17/07
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u...@mail.ru wrote:

> a) Does a simple quoting from a song represent an issue, from the
> "copyrightical" point of view? (Personally, I think it does, but then
> again, I'm not an expert.)

You have to secure permission to quote lyrics, assuming the song is not
in the public domain. Usually, there's a fee for this. It can be
quite expensive depending on the artist and song you are quoting. This
is definitely the case for writing conventional fiction and while I
doubt it's been tested in an interactive fiction venue, the law would
be the same.

An exception (called fair use) is given for academic works and
reviews/critiques of songs or of a group, wherein you're clearly going
to quote some of their lyrics. That "fair use" doesn't apply to
fiction, however. In that case, you must have permission.

(I should note that you can mention the title of the song, without
issue. That probably seems obvious but I've seen this issue come up
where people feel even mentioning the song and artist is not allowed.
It's just when you quote the lyrics.)

> b) Could anyone recommend a resource/service where one could look up
> quickly whether a work is public domain or under copyright, and, in the
> latter case, who the actual copyright holder is?

Check with the publisher of the song that you want to quote from. (For
example, check with BMI or Zamba or whomever the label is.) You can
also try Public Domain Music (http://www.pdinfo.com/). A little
searching on the Web will show you many places where you can check for
various songs, either by genre or by record label or by artist.

- Jeff

Jim Aikin

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Jan 17, 2007, 2:53:18 PM1/17/07
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BMI and ASCAP in the U.S. have databases showing who owns most (though not
all) songs. There are equivalent performing rights societies in other
countries.

As other posters have indicated, legally you can't quote song lyrics (though
a couple of lines would probably fall under the "de minimis" guidelines).
But as a practical matter, copyrights in lyrics are routinely violated all
over the Web, so it's very unlikely you'll run into a problem using lyrics
in a game.

The safe thing to do is find out who owns the copyright in the lyrics and
ask them for permission. But they won't know what Interactive Fiction is,
and they will want a fee. If you tell them you're distributing the game for
free, they may very well tell you "no" (assuming you can find the actual
rights administrator at all).

So the smart thing to do is just go ahead and use the lyrics. If you get a
"cease and desist" order from a lawyer, the game will have to be removed
from the if archive while you fight it out, but I'll bet you $5 you'll never
hear from a lawyer.

Just send me the $5 now, and if you ever hear from a lawyer, I'll send you
back $10. ;-)

--JA


Neil Cerutti

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Jan 17, 2007, 2:02:49 PM1/17/07
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ASCAP's website is also an excellent resource (though the last
time I needed to do this, BMI provided the right info),
particularly if you want to know every single moron that ever
recorded the song you want to quote. They aren't particularly
rabid about making sure stuff that has lapsed into the Public
Domain gets removed from their databases, though. ;)

--
Neil Cerutti

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Branko Collin

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Jan 17, 2007, 4:44:57 PM1/17/07
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On 17 Jan 2007 10:05:55 -0800, u...@mail.ru wrote:

>Sorry for my request being somewhat off-topic.
>
>I'm planning to quote the lyrics of a popular song in my text
>adventure, but I'm not sure whether a) any copyright issues could crop
>up in general and b) whether this specific song is copyrighted or in
>public domain (till now, my investigations on the Internet weren't too
>successful).
>
>Hence, my questions:
>
>a) Does a simple quoting from a song represent an issue, from the
>"copyrightical" point of view? (Personally, I think it does, but then
>again, I'm not an expert.)

Always. Not so much because of copyright laws, but because of
copyright sharks ... no, wait, I mustn't insult sharks, I mean because
of copyright lawyers who operate from the basis that everything is
owned by someone.

>b) Could anyone recommend a resource/service where one could look up
>quickly whether a work is public domain or under copyright, and, in the
>latter case, who the actual copyright holder is?

It would help us narrow things down if you told us in which country
you will be publishing the work.
--
branko collin
Volk van San Theodoros, ik heb U begrepen.

ChicagoDave

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Jan 17, 2007, 4:52:51 PM1/17/07
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> Jeff Nyman wrote:
> You have to secure permission to quote lyrics, assuming the song is not
> in the public domain. Usually, there's a fee for this. It can be
> quite expensive depending on the artist and song you are quoting. This
> is definitely the case for writing conventional fiction and while I
> doubt it's been tested in an interactive fiction venue, the law would
> be the same.

Oh boy am I in trouble. I quoted some of the lyrics from "Stray Cat
Strut" in Cattus Atrox.

David C.

Branko Collin

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Jan 17, 2007, 4:56:51 PM1/17/07
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On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 11:53:18 -0800, "Jim Aikin"
<edi...@musicwords.net> wrote:

>As other posters have indicated, legally you can't quote song lyrics (though
>a couple of lines would probably fall under the "de minimis" guidelines).

Doubtful. From what I understand, "de minimis" relates to whether a
case can recuperate enough damages to make the case worth the courts'
time. In the US a court has already held that this is not the case for
something as insignificant as "a two-second sample from a three-note
guitar solo. The sample was copied, the pitch was lowered, and the
copied piece was 'looped' and extended to 16 beats."

Jim Aikin

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Jan 17, 2007, 5:17:53 PM1/17/07
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>>As other posters have indicated, legally you can't quote song lyrics
>>(though
>>a couple of lines would probably fall under the "de minimis" guidelines).
>
> Doubtful. From what I understand, "de minimis" relates to whether a
> case can recuperate enough damages to make the case worth the courts'
> time. In the US a court has already held that this is not the case for
> something as insignificant as "a two-second sample from a three-note
> guitar solo. The sample was copied, the pitch was lowered, and the
> copied piece was 'looped' and extended to 16 beats."

You're right that ultimately it would be up to a court (a judge and jury) to
decide whether a given usage was allowable or not.

"De minimis" comes from the phrase "de minimis non curat lex," which
translates as "The law does not concern itself with trifles." This doctrine
has, I believe, no hard-and-fast definition. Its purpose is to allow a judge
to tell the plaintiff, "Get over it. Go home and take a cold shower. You're
wasting everyone's time."

The ruling you've cited, dealing with a two-second sample, is one that is
widely regarded as suspect within the legal community. It's the law until
overturned, but it's probably unenforceable and arguably does more harm than
good. (Yes, it even harms giant record companies!)

In any case, it's not clear that the courts would apply the same standard to
a printed sentence as to a recorded sample. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm aware
that in the case of printed material there are hundreds of years of
precedent to guide a judge's ruling.

It's not even clear that it would be _possible_ to apply such a restrictive
standard to printed material. Could a five-word prepositional phrase be
subject to copyright? It seems doubtful. So there _is_ a "de minimis"
defense. We just don't know where the boundaries are, because it would be up
to a judge to decide.

--JA


Jeff Nyman

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Jan 17, 2007, 5:41:57 PM1/17/07
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ChicagoDave wrote:
>
> Oh boy am I in trouble. I quoted some of the lyrics from "Stray Cat
> Strut" in Cattus Atrox.
>

Yeah, you're screwed. :)

Of course, like just about everyone has said, the fact of copyright
hardly stops some people. (I've found that generally people are only
offended when it's their own work that's having its copyright abused.
Otherwise it's largely a non-issue for them.)

Personally, I've never understood why the labels and publishers were so
threatened by simple quoting of lyrics. If nothing else, I suppose you
could argue that someone may actually try to find the song based on a
quote they read in a book. (Of course, these days such a person is more
likely to just download the song illegally than to actually buy it.)

Given that IF is quite clearly a niche market, it's hard to imagine too
many scenarios where a label or publisher would even notice such a
violation and, even if they, did I highly doubt the consequences would
be anything too major (assuming they even bothered in the first place).

- Jeff

Jake Wildstrom

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Jan 17, 2007, 6:04:26 PM1/17/07
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The Prophet Jeff Nyman, known to the wise as jeff...@gmail.com, opened the Book of Words, and read unto the people:

>Given that IF is quite clearly a niche market, it's hard to imagine too
>many scenarios where a label or publisher would even notice such a
>violation and, even if they, did I highly doubt the consequences would
>be anything too major (assuming they even bothered in the first place).

I hate to bring this up, because it opens a whole new can of worms,
but: it's worth noting, though, that "Cattus Atrox" (as well as other
offenders, such as "Mix Tape") were IFcomp entries, and that the comp,
as an institution, has generally frowned on copyright violation, even
where it's likely to go unnoticed by the copyright holders. Not that
I'm suggesting the Comp should be wholesale disqualifying games that
quote lyrics, but be aware that, in some parts of the IF community,
"no harm no foul" isn't the actual criterion for respect of copyright.

--
D. Jacob (Jake) Wildstrom, Math monkey and freelance thinker

"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
-Alfred Renyi

The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily endorsed by the
University of California or math department thereof.


Jeff Nyman

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Jan 17, 2007, 7:34:24 PM1/17/07
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"Jake Wildstrom" <dwil...@zeno.ucsd.edu> wrote in message
news:eoma1q$1ajv$1...@ihnp4.ucsd.edu...

>
> I hate to bring this up, because it opens a whole new can of worms,
> but: it's worth noting, though, that "Cattus Atrox" (as well as other
> offenders, such as "Mix Tape") were IFcomp entries, and that the comp,
> as an institution, has generally frowned on copyright violation, even
> where it's likely to go unnoticed by the copyright holders.

Agreed. But, like I said, I've found that generally people are only offended
when it's their *own* work that's having its copyright abused. I bet if I
took someone's IF work here and reproduced it (or large portions of it) for
myself, that person would be pretty pissed off at me. That same person might
not think anything at all of violating someone else's copyright.

People tend to be selective when it comes to how morally outraged they are
by copyright violations. For example, I've worked with people who would rail
at someone for using illegal software and then, in the next minute,
cheerfully announce how they just downloaded a ton of songs from their P2P
network.

- Jeff


u...@mail.ru

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Jan 17, 2007, 9:48:00 PM1/17/07
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Thanks to everybody for the feedback. It's been very useful (although
not very optimistic;).

Valentine

d...@pobox.com

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Jan 18, 2007, 4:48:41 AM1/18/07
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On Jan 17, 11:04 pm, dwild...@zeno.ucsd.edu (Jake Wildstrom) wrote:
> The Prophet Jeff Nyman, known to the wise as jeffny...@gmail.com, opened the Book of Words, and read unto the people:


>
> >Given that IF is quite clearly a niche market, it's hard to imagine too
> >many scenarios where a label or publisher would even notice such a
> >violation and, even if they, did I highly doubt the consequences would
> >be anything too major (assuming they even bothered in the first place).
> I hate to bring this up, because it opens a whole new can of worms,
> but: it's worth noting, though, that "Cattus Atrox" (as well as other
> offenders, such as "Mix Tape") were IFcomp entries, and that the comp,
> as an institution, has generally frowned on copyright violation, even
> where it's likely to go unnoticed by the copyright holders. Not that
> I'm suggesting the Comp should be wholesale disqualifying games that
> quote lyrics, but be aware that, in some parts of the IF community,
> "no harm no foul" isn't the actual criterion for respect of copyright.

Good point. If I had noticed such violations I would've raised them
with the competition organisers. FWIW this year I investigated the
copyright status of 3 competition entries: Tor Andersson's The Tower of
the Elephant, which looks like it might be based on a copyright work
but _probably_ isn't (Stephen Granade helpfully reassured me on that
point); Emily Short's Floatpoint, which features a picture copyrighted
by someone else but which is licensed (as the "Art Credits" in ABOUT
explains); and Rob Myall's Carmen Devine: Supernatural Troubleshooter,
which features a picture that isn't credited but turns out to be a
composite of a US government photo (the fox) (US government and hence
public domain) and some other stuff that I didn't bother to
investigate.

drj

Blank

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Jan 18, 2007, 5:29:52 AM1/18/07
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On a more practical note, I remember following a thread over on a.g.x a
couple of years ago(?) where an 'adult' Adrift game was released with
pictures of model(s) in violation of copyright. (Sorry I can't remember
if there was only one girl in the game or several.)

The game was passed to a model by a friend who thought she'd be
interested, and the model contacted the author herself. She insisted the
further distribution of the game could only continue if the copyrighted
material was removed, but said that provided the author did this she
would take no further action.

There was some talk about the author and model collaborating on a game,
but I don't know if anything came of this.

jz

Knight Errant

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Jan 18, 2007, 5:45:16 PM1/18/07
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That was Christopher Cole's "The Studio". She changed her mind and let
him keep the copyrighted material when she realized it was promoting
her site. He put a link back to her site to keep the images in..

Tim

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Jan 18, 2007, 9:26:37 PM1/18/07
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If I'm not mistaken, you can quote a percentage of a work that is
copyrighted. I think that falls under the fair use clause as does
copying material to aid instruction on a subject in a classroom (but of
course, there are exceptions). I wanted to quote the NIV Bible in a
lengthy writiing I was working on and Zondervan (who owns the copyright
on that version - go figure) would not allow me permission to quote
freely from it (since they did not agree with the points I was making
in my article/work) BUT they acknowledged that I could quote up to ...
I think it was 25% of the length of my work or something like that. So
I just used some NIV and other translations but in reality, nobody from
Zondervan is going to be reading my article and they'd need to also
prove I cost them $ and since my article would be for free... you get
the idea. I sort of picture Mike Tyson going up to a 3rd grader -
without gloves!

Point is, there is a fair use clause and copying PART of something is
not the same as copying ALL of something and it is also not the same as
copying PART of something and including it into a similar something
(ie, I copy 2 lines from a Michael Jackson song say, Man in the Mirror
and include it into my OWN song... THAT would land me in a courtroom).

So, my take is that I would not lose any sleep incorporating part of a
song in my IF game. Copyright is about $. Period. It is in place to
protect the $ income from intellectual property and what income did the
owners lose by you quoting 2 lines in an IF game?

The world has become paranoid regarding copyright. We need more
pragmatism and common sense.

Now, another case in point...

When I recorded my guitar CD in '94, I wanted to use the cover image
from "The Science of Fractals" by Heinz Otto-Peitgen and Deitmar Saupe
BUT I felt that it was best to ask permission BECAUSE I stood to make
$$$ from their image. PLUS, I was using the ENTIRE image. So, if you
are in doubt, ask them. You know what it cost me to use the image for
my CD? Ten copies of my CD. That's it! I mailed them to Dr.
Peitgen and I got what I wanted.

The issue of using copyrighted material in a way that makes it SEEM as
if you created it would seem a bit unethical to me. But ultimately,
the owner does have total say (even if it is often unenforceable from a
logistics/monetary/practical standpoint - ie, not worth their time).

What's the worst that can happen? The owner emails/calls and asks you
to remove it or they'll spend more of their $ to take you to court to
... remove it?

Now, if you were making $ using it.... I'd want my cut as a copyright
holder. That's what a statutory rate (rate, not rape) means. Each
song of mine on a CD sold gives me say, 9 cents. It's only fair since
it's making even more for the other person.

Just my 2 pennies.

Hey, want to use tunes from my CD in your next game? Go for it. It
won't cost me a nickel and I'd be rather flattered (uh, unless your
game SUCKED! hahahahhahaha! j/k :) )

Tim

u...@mail.ru

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Jan 18, 2007, 10:15:34 PM1/18/07
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OK, that's true, of course.

> Now, another case in point...
>
> When I recorded my guitar CD in '94, I wanted to use the cover image
> from "The Science of Fractals" by Heinz Otto-Peitgen and Deitmar Saupe
> BUT I felt that it was best to ask permission BECAUSE I stood to make
> $$$ from their image. PLUS, I was using the ENTIRE image. So, if you
> are in doubt, ask them. You know what it cost me to use the image for
> my CD? Ten copies of my CD. That's it! I mailed them to Dr.
> Peitgen and I got what I wanted.
>
> The issue of using copyrighted material in a way that makes it SEEM as
> if you created it would seem a bit unethical to me. But ultimately,
> the owner does have total say (even if it is often unenforceable from a
> logistics/monetary/practical standpoint - ie, not worth their time).

Sure enough. My problems were mainly to locate the copyright holder
(which I think I managed to do, thanks to the previous answers that has
been posted here), and to get a response from him (I've already
contacted him via e-mail, but I'm just not sure my message won't get
lost in a torrent of spam).

Anyway, I've already thought of a back-up. If I don't get a permission,
I'll just modify the text (actually, it's easy to do, because I let an
NPC quote the song). Like, you know,

>TALK TO YOKO

She asks you for help, saying she's feeling down. She also says she'd
appreciate you being round a lot. Finally, she repeats, "Won't you help
me, please?". You get the impression she's close to a nervous breakdown
(probably because of all that copyright trouble she had recently).

Well, I don't think the copyright holder for "HELP!" could sue me if I
made it this way, could (s)he?

> What's the worst that can happen? The owner emails/calls and asks you
> to remove it or they'll spend more of their $ to take you to court to
> ... remove it?

OK, AFAIK that never happened to an IF-work before, and I'm definitely
not wanting to create a precedent (no matter how small the risk of that
could be). OK, OK, I know I'm acting anal-retentive here;).

> Now, if you were making $ using it.... I'd want my cut as a copyright
> holder. That's what a statutory rate (rate, not rape) means. Each
> song of mine on a CD sold gives me say, 9 cents. It's only fair since
> it's making even more for the other person.
>
> Just my 2 pennies.
>
> Hey, want to use tunes from my CD in your next game? Go for it. It
> won't cost me a nickel and I'd be rather flattered (uh, unless your
> game SUCKED! hahahahhahaha! j/k :) )

I'd be glad to, but may be you'd wait before my current game is
released, and try it? Because, it may very well be
you're going to withdraw your offer after you see it;). (OTOH, the idea
of your tunes being the best part of a game might also be flattering in
its own way;).

Yeah., and thanks for the reply.

Valentine

Jim Aikin

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Jan 19, 2007, 12:06:02 AM1/19/07
to
> If I'm not mistaken, you can quote a percentage of a work that is
> copyrighted. I think that falls under the fair use clause as does
> copying material to aid instruction on a subject in a classroom (but of
> course, there are exceptions).

There's always a temptation to assume that "whatever I'm doing is fair use."
It's not so. There's no such thing as "you can quote up to XYZ amount and
it's fair use." Be very careful about making this kind of assumption.

> they'd need to also
> prove I cost them $ and since my article would be for free... you get
> the idea.

The fact that your article would be free has no relevance. If you quote,
let's say, ALL of a novel my Michael Connelly on your website, and you're
not making a nickel off of it because it can be downloaded for free, do you
think that will protect you? Don't count on it. What matters, in a legal
sense, is whether the copyright holder can prove that your usage DAMAGED his
ability to earn money off of the work.

Or rather, that's one of the factors. The manner in which you use the
material is also relevant. There is some protection for parody, for
instance. But just saying, "Hey, my work is a parody!" won't necessarily
help you.

If you're not a lawyer yourself, your ONLY safe bet is to ask a lawyer who
is knowledge about about copyright. I'm not a lawyer, and neither, as far as
I'm aware, is anyone on this newsgroup. All legal advice posted here is
worth exactly what you paid for it.

--JA

BrettW

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Jan 19, 2007, 2:15:09 AM1/19/07
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I researched the copyright stuff before I submitted "Mix Tape" to the
IF Comp. I had intended to include lyrics, but that's not universally
fair use so I cut it down to just the song titles. Lyrics are heavily
restricted but mentioning titles is okay.

The only copyrighted text I included was an excerpt from "High
Fidelity" and from what I researched, that seemed to be fair use. Not
that these things are clear-cut.

I don't know what you were implying, but yes, it was an issue when I
was writing "Mix Tape". However, as far as I am aware, I dealt with it
properly.

BrettW

Jake Wildstrom

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Jan 19, 2007, 11:50:37 AM1/19/07
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The Prophet BrettW, known to the wise as shor...@gmail.com, opened the Book of Words, and read unto the people:

>I researched the copyright stuff before I submitted "Mix Tape" to the
>IF Comp. I had intended to include lyrics, but that's not universally
>fair use so I cut it down to just the song titles. Lyrics are heavily
>restricted but mentioning titles is okay.

I stand corrected. I recalled lyrics in the section box quotes,
but apparently I was mistaken.

>I don't know what you were implying, but yes, it was an issue when I
>was writing "Mix Tape". However, as far as I am aware, I dealt with it
>properly.

Didn't mean to pick a fight, really; calling it an "offender" might
have been a bit inflammatory, and I do apologize, and commend your
foresight in handling this issue (surely better than I would have
done). I was using it as an example -- admittedly a poor one, in
retrospect -- of our complicated attitude towards scofflaw copyright
violation: anything 'nobody would notice' is OK, unless it's in the
Comp, in which case copyright violations are taken seriously, unless
nobody _does_ notice -- which seems to have been the general practice
in the Comp wrt song lyrics. I don't think it occurred to most folks
that their box quotes or what-have-you could be violations, and if we
applied such a disqualification retroactively, we'd end up
disqualifying an awful lot of games, including some good ones.

Tim

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Jan 19, 2007, 11:50:26 PM1/19/07
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Jim Aikin wrote:
> > If I'm not mistaken, you can quote a percentage of a work that is
> > copyrighted. I think that falls under the fair use clause as does
> > copying material to aid instruction on a subject in a classroom (but of
> > course, there are exceptions).
>
> There's always a temptation to assume that "whatever I'm doing is fair use."
> It's not so. There's no such thing as "you can quote up to XYZ amount and
> it's fair use." Be very careful about making this kind of assumption.
>

Well, I was telling you what Zondervan told me. But here is what the
U.S. Copyright website says.

How much of someone else's work can I use without getting permission?
Under the fair use doctrine of the U.S. copyright statute, it is
permissible to use limited portions of a work including quotes, for
purposes such as commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly
reports. There are no legal rules permitting the use of a specific
number of words, a certain number of musical notes, or percentage of a
work. Whether a particular use qualifies as fair use depends on all the
circumstances.

So, in a way, I'm correct. You can copy a PORTION (but how much is a
portion?) And they don't want to define it so that way the judge has
final say even if you copy 8 notes from a song - google "I want a new
drug" and "ghost busters". Then again, it was one song that used the
bass line from another song, the second song making money so again,
it's a totally different beast than copying 8 notes to put into an IF
game that's given away. It's the same for trademarks. Two companies
can use the same mark as long as what they do/offer/sell is in
completely different markets and best if they are local companies or
that their markets do not converge. That doesn't keep them from
wanting complete ownership of the mark tho. Now, if I want to form a
soft drink company and call it Coke, I've got problems.


> > they'd need to also
> > prove I cost them $ and since my article would be for free... you get
> > the idea.
>
> The fact that your article would be free has no relevance.

Maybe.

If you quote,
> let's say, ALL of a novel my Michael Connelly on your website, and you're
> not making a nickel off of it because it can be downloaded for free, do you
> think that will protect you?

You're conveniently leaving out part of my post. Quoting an entire
novel on my website would COST the author money since people would d/l
it for free from my site instead of buying it from a bookstore. So, the
author would have more of a reason to pursue legal ACTION against you.

I said that if you were to quote say up to 25% of it in an article or
other non-related work (scholarly paper, etc.) not directly in
competition with it, then the owner would have a much more difficult
time "winning" in court due to fair use and all the circumstances
involved. Their lawyer most likely would do the
bully-them-with-a-scary-letter first in hopes you'd cower down. But
it's still a matter of risk vs reward. I personally wouldn't lose one
wink of sleep quoting 1/4 or less of a work in another work of mine if
mine was not a work I was selling. But that's just me.

Hey, Eleanor Rigby... uh, picks up the... uh, rice in a church where...
uh... a wedding has BEAN! hehehehe

I'd better stop now!

Don't count on it. What matters, in a legal
> sense, is whether the copyright holder can prove that your usage DAMAGED his
> ability to earn money off of the work.
>
> Or rather, that's one of the factors. The manner in which you use the
> material is also relevant. There is some protection for parody, for
> instance. But just saying, "Hey, my work is a parody!" won't necessarily
> help you.
>
> If you're not a lawyer yourself, your ONLY safe bet is to ask a lawyer who
> is knowledge about about copyright. I'm not a lawyer, and neither, as far as
> I'm aware, is anyone on this newsgroup. All legal advice posted here is
> worth exactly what you paid for it.
>
> --JA

Um, can we say "that's a given"? Who, reading newsgroups, would think
that anyone was giving legal advice as a lawyer? I believe if one
looks at my post a 2nd time, they will see that I am posting my
opinions and personal experiences regarding copyright. Phrases such
as "I think..." or "I believe..." or "It's my opinion that..." and "If
I'm not mistaken..." sort of clue one in, eh? Plus, last I checked,
this is a newsgroup, not a courtroom. Giving legal advice or just your
opinion on a matter? Guess that's a matter of opinion. hehehehe

Sometimes opinions are in line with facts. Most stuff > 75 years old
is in the public domain so go find it, and copy it till you're blue in
the face and distribute it in its original form and sell it and make
millions. It's completely legal and done all day long. 1930s or
older but just be sure it's in the public domain cuz sometimes they can
renew the copyright (not sure how they do it... ). I'm sure more can
be learned on wikipedia.org searching for "public domain" and
"copyright". Also, google to find the official U.S. copyright website.
There, you won't find opinions. :) I hadn't looked lately and it's
been years since I contacted Zondervan so I wasn't sure on the % of
quoting (as I said in my first post when I said "If I'm not mistaken"
but I was!).

What if I add that I believe I am a lawyer? HAHAHAHHAHA Hey, it's only
my opinion. (yeah, I can be a hard-headed @#$$%@!#%@$%)

So, just ask permission and use your best judgment. If you ask them,
they'll probably let you for either a) a small royalty as in the music
biz or b) free or c) deny you.

Okay, I'm over it. weeeeeeeeeeee


Tim

BrettW

unread,
Jan 20, 2007, 10:19:35 AM1/20/07
to
No worries.

I was more worried that I'd missed something than anything else :)

BrettW

u...@mail.ru

unread,
Jan 21, 2007, 1:50:50 AM1/21/07
to

"""Tim wrote:

> Sometimes opinions are in line with facts. Most stuff > 75 years
old
> is in the public domain so go find it, and copy it till you're blue in
> the face and distribute it in its original form and sell it and make
> millions. It's completely legal and done all day long. 1930s or
> older but just be sure it's in the public domain cuz sometimes they can
> renew the copyright (not sure how they do it... ). I'm sure more can
> be learned on wikipedia.org searching for "public domain" and
> "copyright". Also, google to find the official U.S. copyright website.
> There, you won't find opinions. :) I hadn't looked lately and it's
> been years since I contacted Zondervan so I wasn't sure on the % of
> quoting (as I said in my first post when I said "If I'm not mistaken"
> but I was!).

Well, I followed your advice, and looked at the U.S. copyright website,
and found out that

a) "The distinction between "fair use" and infringement may be
unclear and not easily defined. There is no specific number of words,
lines, or notes that may safely be taken without permission.
Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not
substitute for obtaining permission."

b) None of the "examples of activities that courts have regarded as
fair use" listed there apply to ficiton (well, except for parody). Your
example with Zondervan (as far as I understood you've been creating an
article), OTOH, does.

But OK, OK, I just posted it here to complete the picture. Basically, I
fully agree with what you said on the matter.

Valentine

David Doty

unread,
Feb 4, 2007, 2:59:13 PM2/4/07
to
"Tim" <mefts...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1169268626.870605.159230@
51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com:

> How much of someone else's work can I use without getting permission?

Sorry, to dredge up an old thread, but I wanted to comment on this.
You're right that how it's used affects Fair Use, but so does how
essential the portion is to the original. As a result, there's no magic
% you can quote safely.

For example, you might be able to use a 30 second clip of a movie on a
review show and it's fair use. (To choose a random length.) However, if
it was followed by a review of a murder mystery movie with a 5 second
clip, that shorter clip might not be Fair Use if it identifies the
killer. It's so essential that people who've seen the clip may no longer
feel the need/ desire to see the whole film.

There's no magic formula to feel "safe." Ultimately, unless you contact
the copyright holder for permission, or hire a copyright lawyer, all you
can do is think carefully about what you consider fair use, and what
you'd be willing to argue in court, and what you'd be willing to lose a
court case to defend.

If you aren't willing to take your chances in court in a situation that's
likely to end up with a judge's own best judgment, best to leave it out.

Herbert Mouse

unread,
Feb 4, 2007, 4:56:01 PM2/4/07
to
On Jan 17, 12:05 pm, u...@mail.ru wrote:
> Sorry for my request being somewhat off-topic.
>
> I'm planning to quote the lyrics of a popular song in my text
> adventure,

Just out of curiosity, why?

Not to sound overly cynical, but I think there are a few things you
have to address if you're doing that.
1. How does the game benefit from the inclusion of these lyrics?
2. How do you plan to present them so that they don't disrupt the flow
of the game?
3. What if the player doesn't know the song, or hates it? Will that
keep them from enjoying your game?

As someone who doesn't particularly like or listen to popular music,
I'd want to know the author of a great IF made sure to address these
things before putting lyrics in their game.

Andy Leighton

unread,
Feb 4, 2007, 5:26:04 PM2/4/07
to

Yes but one could equally ask Ian Rankin why popular music suffuses
his Rebus novels. Using the lyrics of a song, or referring to various
album or song titles, can be a perfectly valid artistic choice.

For many adding in a few lines here and there can be incredibly powerful
in helping fix a character's background and maybe personal history in
the reader^H^H^H^H^H^H player's mind and helps tell us about particular
npcs and situations. It acts as a kind of shorthand. Of course this is
all considering characters and situations in a near-analogue of the real
world.

--
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

Herbert Mouse

unread,
Feb 4, 2007, 6:28:26 PM2/4/07
to
On Feb 4, 4:26 pm, Andy Leighton <a...@azaal.plus.com> wrote:

>
> Yes but one could equally ask Ian Rankin why popular music suffuses
> his Rebus novels.


Which is a perfectly reasonable thing for one who wants to know that
to do.


> Using the lyrics of a song, or referring to various
> album or song titles, can be a perfectly valid artistic choice.
>
> For many adding in a few lines here and there can be incredibly powerful
> in helping fix a character's background and maybe personal history in
> the reader^H^H^H^H^H^H player's mind and helps tell us about particular
> npcs and situations. It acts as a kind of shorthand. Of course this is
> all considering characters and situations in a near-analogue of the real
> world.

Or more accurately, a near-analogue of the flawed mental models we
make of the real world in which we allow caricatures of what kinds of
people listen to what music to dictate far more of their actual being
than is rational. Not that exploiting this isn't a useful tool for
writing fiction.

Thank you for suggesting that as a possible good use of lyrics in an
IF. I'm guessing there are likely others as well, and I'm hoping to
hear the OP give his reasons.


Tim

unread,
Feb 6, 2007, 2:38:35 PM2/6/07
to
On Feb 4, 3:56 pm, "Herbert Mouse" <hombrev...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 17, 12:05 pm, u...@mail.ru wrote:
>
> > Sorry for my request being somewhat off-topic.
>
> > I'm planning to quote the lyrics of a popular song in my text
> > adventure,
>
> Just out of curiosity, why?
>
> Not to sound overly cynical, but I think there are a few things you
> have to address if you're doing that.
> 1. How does the game benefit from the inclusion of these lyrics?

How does every Stephen King story benefit from including song titles,
lyrics, references? Well, at least references to contemporary
culture.

> 2. How do you plan to present them so that they don't disrupt the flow
> of the game?

I assume the same way that they do not disrupt a short story. They
become a part of the story. The protagonist might be singing the
lyric while driving to some destination.

> 3. What if the player doesn't know the song, or hates it?

Didn't seem to stop Stephen King or Richard Matheson or probably
thousands of other "famous" authors.


Will that
> keep them from enjoying your game?
>

It didn't keep me from enjoying the short stories of the two
aforementioned authors.

> As someone who doesn't particularly like or listen to popular music,
> I'd want to know the author of a great IF made sure to address these
> things before putting lyrics in their game.


I think they are non-issues. Just my opinion!

Tim

Brian Campbell

unread,
Feb 6, 2007, 6:08:13 PM2/6/07
to
On Jan 17, 1:05 pm, u...@mail.ru wrote:
> a) Does a simple quoting from a song represent an issue, from the
> "copyrightical" point of view? (Personally, I think it does, but then
> again, I'm not an expert.)

What jurisdiction are you talking about? In the US, there is the
doctrine of fair use, which is actually specified in law but up to the
courts to determine exactly what constitutes fair use. There are four
major criteria for determining if a particular use constitutes fair
use:

1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is
of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to
the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the
copyrighted work.

Since I'm assuming you won't be selling this, you can get away with
calling it nonprofit purposes, though not educational. The nature of
the copyrighted work will influence how they determine what sort of
use is fair. I don't really know how that will affect anything, in
terms of copying a song or portion thereof. The amount and
substantiality is an important criterion; if you quote a single line
from the song, and give appropriate credit, I don't think they'd have
a leg to stand on, but if you quoted the entire song it would
certainly be infringement. A stanza or two is where it gets into shady
areas, and would be up to the courts to decide. Finally, the effect of
the use on the market or value for the original work. If you quote
enough of a song that people start identifying that tune or lyric with
you, it may reduce the value of the original artists work. If you're
just quoting a lyric in interactive fiction, and give appropriate
credit, and furthermore your work doesn't ever leave the relatively
small IF community, then I think it would be pretty difficult for them
to argue that it's done them any harm.

So, in the end, my advice would be to quote a small amount of the work
(line or two, maybe stanza or two), give appropriate credit, and don't
sell your work for money. Of course, this is all assuming US law; I
don't know what the situation is in other jurisdictions. Finally, this
is purely based on my imperfect knowledge of copyright law; this is
not official legal advice, and I am not a lawyer.

> b) Could anyone recommend a resource/service where one could look up
> quickly whether a work is public domain or under copyright, and, in the
> latter case, who the actual copyright holder is?

There really is no listing of who owns the copyright to every work, or
if a work is in the public domain. To actually figure this out may
require that you copy the work, and then get in a lengthy court battle
with whoever claims they own the copyright, where they try to prove
that they own it and you try to prove that it's in the public domain.
The problem is that since the early 1980s (again, this is in the US, I
don't know about other jurisdictions), every work created
automatically falls under copyright unless specifically stated
otherwise.

A good rule of thumb is that anything created before 1900 or so is in
the public domain (except for Peter Pan), and anything created after
1923 or so is under copyright and will be forever at the rate we're
currently extending copyrights.

If you want to find out who owns the copyright for something, a place
to start might be the Library of Congress's copyright records <http://
www.copyright.gov/records/>, which include most registered copyrights
since the 1970's. This is going to be woefully incomplete, since
registration isn't required and copyrights can be sold without
notifying the copyright office, but it might be a good place to start.
Again, this is only useful for copyrights registered in the US, but it
might be helpful.

Finally, for music there's a final resource, which is the performer's
rights organization. There are several such organizations, and they
handle the licensing of music for performance, including radio play,
playing it in a restaurant, muzak for when you're on hold on the
phone, and so on. Many of them have search pages, where you can find
information about the rights holders for performing the work. Whether
this is the same as the rights holder for copying the lyrics is an
open question, but again, this can be a good start. There a list of
various such organizations worldwide here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performing_rights_organization

u...@mail.ru

unread,
Feb 6, 2007, 9:32:06 PM2/6/07
to
On 5 Фев., 00:56, "Herbert Mouse" <hombrev...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 17, 12:05 pm, u...@mail.ru wrote:
>
> > Sorry for my request being somewhat off-topic.
>
> > I'm planning to quote the lyrics of a popular song in my text
> > adventure,
>
> Just out of curiosity, why?

Good question;). Let's say it just seemed apropriate. Since I'm often
humming along songs when on my way, or working on something, it would
be natural for my NPCs to do just the same thing (also, see answer to
Question 2 below).

> Not to sound overly cynical, but I think there are a few things you
> have to address if you're doing that.
> 1. How does the game benefit from the inclusion of these lyrics?
> 2. How do you plan to present them so that they don't disrupt the flow
> of the game?
> 3. What if the player doesn't know the song, or hates it? Will that
> keep them from enjoying your game?

Question 2: if you *must* know, an NPC will hum it along. Question 1
and 3: only my beta-testers will be able to tell;). Since I'm
definitely trying to make my game enjoyable, *my personal* answers to
these questions obviously would be "muchly", and "no", respectively;).

> As someone who doesn't particularly like or listen to popular music,
> I'd want to know the author of a great IF made sure to address these
> things before putting lyrics in their game.

Let's assume I'm the author of a lousy IF;).

Valentine

u...@mail.ru

unread,
Feb 6, 2007, 9:55:08 PM2/6/07
to
On 7 Фев., 02:08, "Brian Campbell" <unlam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 17, 1:05 pm, u...@mail.ru wrote:

Thanks for the input.

> > a) Does a simple quoting from a song represent an issue, from the
> > "copyrightical" point of view? (Personally, I think it does, but then
> > again, I'm not an expert.)
>
> What jurisdiction are you talking about?

Probably USA, since the song is copyright in USA, and the if-archive
is located in the USA. (BTW, in the context of our situation, the
question of jurisdiction confuses me a lot - what jurisdiction has to
be applied to a work that's going to be put into an online-resource
accessible all over the world?)

> In the US, there is the
> doctrine of fair use, which is actually specified in law but up to the
> courts to determine exactly what constitutes fair use. There are four
> major criteria for determining if a particular use constitutes fair
> use:
>
> 1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is
> of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
> 2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
> 3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to
> the copyrighted work as a whole; and
> 4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the
> copyrighted work.

I looked at the "proofed samples" of fair use listed on the copyright
office site - none of them applies to works of fiction. This means
that, if they ultimately wanted to condemn you in court, they
basically would be able to (since they have more resources;). Anyway,
since I intend to make my NPC sing it, I have a nice way around in my
particular case: since, as they say, "Copyright protects the
particular way an author has expressed himself; it does not extend to
any ideas, systems, or factual information conveyed in the work", all
I'd have to do is to change the lines from, say,

NPCs sing "We're Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band, we hope you
will enjoy the show",

to something like

in their song, the NPCs introduces themselves as Sgt. Peppers Lonely
Hearts Club Band, and express the hope the audience is enjoying their
performance.

You're not quite right here - just look at the previous posts in this
thread. People gave me links to resources where I could locate the
copyright holders (in particular, the BMI site was very helpful). I
even contacted the copyright holders, and got a response from them.
Let's see what will come out of this;).

Valentine

Andrew Plotkin

unread,
Feb 6, 2007, 9:55:47 PM2/6/07
to

I was avoiding this thread (because I'm tired of arguing about
copyright) so I hadn't realized this bit had drifted away from
copyright and back into storytelling.

Well, when I was writing _A Change in the Weather_, my answers were:

It's a great song which captures the emotions I was trying to put into
the piece. (Or maybe I had captured them from the song! At least in
original inspiration.) Plus, it has elements which are echoed in the
story: the river, drowning, waiting.

I stuck the lyric quotes in as box quotes before the first and final
sections. Quotes of that sort were (and still are) a common device in
IF, so I wasn't worried about that.

I figured the lyrics carried their own weight even if you weren't
familiar with the song.

And what if the player hates the song? Maybe he'll throw the game
across the room. Maybe he won't care. What if he loves the song but
hates the first room description? What if he hates how I spell my
name? I can't get anything done if I worry about that.

A couple of years later, I replaced the lyric quotes in _A Change in
the Weather_ with lines I had written myself. (I did this for reasons
in that area that I'm tired of arguing about.) By your lights, what
issues did I avoid thereby? You could perfectly well ask your three
questions about *my* lines. Except that players would be much more
likely to recognize Eric Bogle's words than mine; so I only robbed
myself of the opportunity for a deepening resonance.

Now that I think about it, maybe I should swap them back.

--Z

--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
If the Bush administration hasn't shipped you to Syria for interrogation,
it's for one reason: they don't feel like it. Not because you're patriotic.

Adam Thornton

unread,
Feb 6, 2007, 11:08:42 PM2/6/07
to
If it had historically been necessary to take all this all *that* damn
seriously, _The Waste Land_ and thereby much of 20th Century literature
and poetry could never have happened.

Just saying.

Adam

P.S. See also Spider Robinson's "Melancholy Elephants."

Herbert Mouse

unread,
Feb 6, 2007, 11:34:58 PM2/6/07
to
On Feb 6, 8:32 pm, u...@mail.ru wrote:

> Question 2: if you *must* know,

Well, I don't *must* know any of this, and you obviously don't owe me
any explanations. I was just suggesting you consider those questions.
Thank you for sharing your reasons though, they sound like good ones
to me.


>Let's assume I'm the author of a lousy IF;).


I think I'll reserve judgment until I've played it. :)


villagedweller

unread,
Feb 6, 2007, 11:47:06 PM2/6/07
to
Couldn't we simplify all of this by saying:

if you're worrying about it this much, you can pretty much assume that
if the original artist worries about it this much, they will be able
to cause you a certain amount of pain. so:

how likely is it that they will care?
how much pain will it cause you if you do?

if pain * likelihood > your personal threshold, don't do it;
otherwise, carry on...

The Wanderer

unread,
Feb 7, 2007, 8:04:41 AM2/7/07
to
u...@mail.ru wrote:

> On 7 Фев., 02:08, "Brian Campbell" <unlam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jan 17, 1:05 pm, u...@mail.ru wrote:

>>> a) Does a simple quoting from a song represent an issue, from the
>>> "copyrightical" point of view? (Personally, I think it does, but
>>> then again, I'm not an expert.)
>>
>> What jurisdiction are you talking about?
>
> Probably USA, since the song is copyright in USA, and the if-archive
> is located in the USA. (BTW, in the context of our situation, the
> question of jurisdiction confuses me a lot - what jurisdiction has to
> be applied to a work that's going to be put into an online-resource
> accessible all over the world?)

In paranoid-practical terms? Whichever jurisdiction (of those which are
in a position to negatively affect anyone the put-er cares about) has
the most restrictive rules.

Not a very pretty picture, which is why I prefer to avoid looking at it
in those terms, even though they're probably the most "realistic". (I
prefer to be idealistic and insist that the world adapt to me, not the
other way around.)

--
The Wanderer

Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.

Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.

Brian Campbell

unread,
Feb 7, 2007, 3:10:21 PM2/7/07
to
On Feb 6, 9:55 pm, u...@mail.ru wrote:
> Probably USA, since the song is copyright in USA, and the if-archive
> is located in the USA. (BTW, in the context of our situation, the
> question of jurisdiction confuses me a lot - what jurisdiction has to
> be applied to a work that's going to be put into an online-resource
> accessible all over the world?)

That's a damn good question, and one that's not really very well
resolved legally. The problem with fuzzy legal issues like this is
that the best way to answer the question is just to fight it out in
court.

> Anyway,
> since I intend to make my NPC sing it, I have a nice way around in my
> particular case: since, as they say, "Copyright protects the
> particular way an author has expressed himself; it does not extend to
> any ideas, systems, or factual information conveyed in the work", all
> I'd have to do is to change the lines from, say,
>
> NPCs sing "We're Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band, we hope you
> will enjoy the show",
>
> to something like
>
> in their song, the NPCs introduces themselves as Sgt. Peppers Lonely
> Hearts Club Band, and express the hope the audience is enjoying their
> performance.

As I said, I'm sure it would be fine for you to quote a line or two
from the song. Just take a line or two, put some credits for it in
your "about" screen, and you should be all set. The chances are
thousands to one that they'll even notice you, and even if they do I
truly doubt they'd try litigating over a single line quoted in some
IF, and if they did try litigating I'm nearly positive they wouldn't
win.

> > There really is no listing of who owns the copyright to every work, or
> > if a work is in the public domain. To actually figure this out may
> > require that you copy the work, and then get in a lengthy court battle
> > with whoever claims they own the copyright, where they try to prove
> > that they own it and you try to prove that it's in the public domain.
> > The problem is that since the early 1980s (again, this is in the US, I
> > don't know about other jurisdictions), every work created
> > automatically falls under copyright unless specifically stated
> > otherwise.
>
> You're not quite right here - just look at the previous posts in this
> thread. People gave me links to resources where I could locate the
> copyright holders (in particular, the BMI site was very helpful). I
> even contacted the copyright holders, and got a response from them.
> Let's see what will come out of this;).

Well, I said that there is no listing of who owns the copyright on
*every* work. There are some places that list the copyrights on *some*
work, which I mentioned later in my message (I gave a link to the US
copyright office, and a wikipedia article listing all of the ASCAP/BMI
type organizations). But for any random piece of copyrighted work, it
may be nearly impossible to track down who owns the copyright. I write
educational interactive media, and we use images from various sources
all the time, and frequently just have to find a different picture of
the same thing because we can't track down who owns the copyright to
an image.

u...@mail.ru

unread,
Feb 7, 2007, 10:02:22 PM2/7/07
to
On 7 Фев., 07:47, "villagedweller" <villagedwel...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

Well, there's one more thing: it's kinda cool to have a few lines
saying "Using with the permission of the copyright holder" in one's
game. At least, that's how *I* feel about it. Sort of like the
"Designed for Microsoft Windows" sticker for computer manufacturers (I
know, I know, the comparison is forced somewhat;).

On 7 Фев., Brian Campbell wrote:

> Well, I said that there is no listing of who owns the copyright on
> *every* work. There are some places that list the copyrights on *some*
> work, which I mentioned later in my message (I gave a link to the US
> copyright office, and a wikipedia article listing all of the ASCAP/BMI
> type organizations). But for any random piece of copyrighted work, it
> may be nearly impossible to track down who owns the copyright.

Uh, sorry, then, I just got you wrong.

Anyway, I think now is probably a good point to close the thread. For
one thing (from the cynically pragmatic point of view;), I've really
solved my problems (or, at least, I know how to go about solving it).
BTW, I can't thank people who posted here enough for that - without
all of you, I'd probably still be at the crossroads. For another, the
discussion starts running in circles, talking over and over things
that's been discussed before.

Valentine

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