which operating sysetm do you use?

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Plugh!

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Jul 29, 2002, 9:56:34 AM7/29/02
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I reckon that I am code complete on my program (see
http://ww.plugh.info) and have implemented Cloak of Darkness and have
started on Drift Day Ditcher, to verify that it generates the correct
TADS code. The next step should be to beta test it, then finally get a
v1.0 out.

However, I am still waiting for Borland to produce its long promised
Linux port of the C++ Builder. An alternative would be to convert the
whole thing to Delphi/Kylix where one set of code will generate
executables for both WIndows & Linux (sorry, still no Mac). Of course,
that would destablize it and Linux users _could_ use it with Wine.

Did anyone ever do a survey on this n.g to detrmine which Operating
System is most widely used (by developers, not players)?

In any case, which o/s do you use?

Nikos Chantziaras

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Jul 29, 2002, 1:28:22 PM7/29/02
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"Plugh!" <pl...@plugh.info> wrote in message
news:68bd0e8.02072...@posting.google.com...

> However, I am still waiting for Borland to produce its
> long promised Linux port of the C++ Builder. An alternative
> would be to convert the whole thing to Delphi/Kylix where
> one set of code will generate executables for both WIndows
> & Linux (sorry, still no Mac). Of course, that would
> destablize it and Linux users _could_ use it with Wine.

If you're using C++, the only thing you have to do is making it
ANSI-compatible and use portable libraries (QT for example). The TADS 3
sources show how to do this the right way.

With ANSI/ISO C++ your code will be able to compile with most compilers on
most operating systems.

> Did anyone ever do a survey on this n.g to detrmine which
> Operating System is most widely used (by developers,
> not players)?

Unix is, IMAO, *the* system for programming in general. A few years ago, I
used things like Visual C, Visual This, Visual That, Visual Whatever. Now I
use gcc/g++ and GNU gdb under Linux in a plain text console.

> In any case, which o/s do you use?

Linux for programming (C, C++, Pascal, TADS), MS-DOG/Windows for non-IF
games.

-- Niko


Billy Harris

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Jul 29, 2002, 3:28:08 PM7/29/02
to
In article <68bd0e8.02072...@posting.google.com>, Plugh!
<pl...@plugh.info> wrote:

> In any case, which o/s do you use?

Macs at home, Linux at school.

Sascha Müller

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Jul 29, 2002, 4:52:25 PM7/29/02
to
Plugh! wrote:

> In any case, which o/s do you use?

Linux at home, Sun Solaris at the university

Cryptonomic

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Jul 29, 2002, 5:43:06 PM7/29/02
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I have a triple partition on my home machine: Windows 98 Second Edition,
Windows 2000 Professional, and Mandrake Linux. I use each of them for
different purposes.


Tarage

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Jul 29, 2002, 7:03:51 PM7/29/02
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I use System 6 (Apple IIGS) to play IF...I use Mac OS 9.1 to develop.

~Tarage

Uli Kusterer

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Jul 29, 2002, 7:20:31 PM7/29/02
to
In article <68bd0e8.02072...@posting.google.com>,
pl...@plugh.info (Plugh!) wrote:

> Did anyone ever do a survey on this n.g to detrmine which Operating
> System is most widely used (by developers, not players)?
>
> In any case, which o/s do you use?

MacOS 10.1.5

-- M. Uli Kusterer

(I do not wish to receive spam or unsolicited commercial e-mail)

Dave

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Jul 29, 2002, 11:43:17 PM7/29/02
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Plugh! <pl...@plugh.info> wrote:
[snip]

> Did anyone ever do a survey on this n.g to detrmine which Operating
> System is most widely used (by developers, not players)?

> In any case, which o/s do you use?

I do most of my development work on NetBSD (x86 and sparc) with testing
done on anything I can get access to.

--
David Griffith
dgr...@cs.csubak.edu

Adam Thornton

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Jul 29, 2002, 11:57:09 PM7/29/02
to
>In any case, which o/s do you use?

Linux.

These days, SuSE Linux 8.0 on Intel, mostly.

Although sometimes I use Linux/390 just for the hell of it.

Adam

Plugh!

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Jul 30, 2002, 3:14:57 AM7/30/02
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Strange! so far, only one person admits to using Windows (from an
admittedly small sample), but even he doesn't use it exclusively.

I would have expeceted 80-90% Windows response - I wonder if it's like
the french with Le Pen - everyone knows windows will landlslide it, so
windows voters don't bother, figuring the others will carry it for
them.

I use both Windows & Linux. I have been using Windows for development,
because I have a very stronbg preferance for Borland C++ Builder. I
could change that to Obejct Oriented Pascal and use Borland
Delphi/Kylix, thus having executables for both Windows & Linux.

Alternatively, I could continue as I am & ask the Linux users to run
Wine.

Question : Is there a free windows emulator for the Mac? In theory,
now that OS X (I think it is called) is Unix based, someone should be
working to port Wine to the Mac too.

Craig Thomson

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Jul 30, 2002, 3:23:02 AM7/30/02
to
On 29 Jul 2002 06:56:34 -0700, pl...@plugh.info (Plugh!) wrote:

>Did anyone ever do a survey on this n.g to detrmine which Operating
>System is most widely used (by developers, not players)?
>
>In any case, which o/s do you use?

Well, I am a beginner developer using TADS and have been playing
around with a couple of WIPs, none of them yet released (or even close
to it). I use Windows exclusively and have no access to any other os.

Craig

Plugh!

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Jul 30, 2002, 3:26:54 AM7/30/02
to
> If you're using C++, the only thing you have to do is making it
> ANSI-compatible and use portable libraries (QT for example). The TADS 3
> sources show how to do this the right way.
>
> With ANSI/ISO C++ your code will be able to compile with most compilers on
> most operating systems.
Sorry, no can do, for reasons explained below.

> Unix is, IMAO, *the* system for programming in general.

Command line based, I'll agree with you. After that, it's horses for
courses - and if you insist on C++, it must be Borland C++ Builder -
which is curerntly only available for windows. They have indicated
that a Linux version is coming, but won't commit to a firm date (last
I got in a private e-mail was 2nd quarter, 2002 (!).

> A few years ago, I
> used things like Visual C, Visual This, Visual That, Visual Whatever. Now I
> use gcc/g++ and GNU gdb under Linux in a plain text console.

The whole point of my program is that it is GUI based. I looked at all
of the "Visual C, Visual This, Visual That, Visual Whatever" for Linux
and was not very impressed. They either require _much_ more work on
the part of the programmer than the Borland products (e.g Qtlib), or
are heading in Borland's direction, but are far from complete.

I have often wondered why Visual C++ (MSVC) is so called? Perhaps
using an IDE qualifies it as 'visual'? However, if you ever used MS
Visual Basic, you will have a feel for the Borland products: they
offer a component palette, like a paint program, from which you drag
menus, radio buttons, etc onto your program's form, then click them to
write the code behind them. There are dozens of standrd components,
including all the ones you see in normal wiindows, plus a bunch more,
and thousands of freeware components developed by hobbyists, some
quite complex (the compoennts, not the hobbyists (hmm, who knows,
though ?).

If you have not yet cheeked it out and want to extremely easilly
develop a GUI based program with world class - and free - tools, check
out
http://www.borland.com/kylix/index.html for Linux
http://www.borland.com/delphi/index.html for Windows
http://www.borland.com/jbuilder/index.html for Java


>
> > In any case, which o/s do you use?
>
> Linux for programming (C, C++, Pascal, TADS), MS-DOG/Windows for non-IF
> games.

Don't you use Wine (or VmWare, etc) to save having to boot into
windows just to run a game ?

L. Ross Raszewski

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Jul 30, 2002, 3:48:00 AM7/30/02
to
On 30 Jul 2002 00:14:57 -0700, Plugh! <pl...@plugh.info> wrote:
>Strange! so far, only one person admits to using Windows (from an
>admittedly small sample), but even he doesn't use it exclusively.
>
>I would have expeceted 80-90% Windows response - I wonder if it's like
>the french with Le Pen - everyone knows windows will landlslide it, so
>windows voters don't bother, figuring the others will carry it for
>them.

It's very strange, but every poll that's ever been done shows a nearly
equal proportion of Windows, *nix, and Mac users (And we've got a
couple of users of even *more* arcane systems out on the fringe). The
IF community does not represent the population at large.

For what it's worth, Windows 98 at home, with the occasional linux
when I have cause (most of what I do is net.surfing and playing video
games, so linux is far from ideal), Solaris at work.

Sascha Müller

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Jul 30, 2002, 5:39:05 AM7/30/02
to
Plugh! wrote:

> They either require _much_ more work on
> the part of the programmer than the Borland products (e.g Qtlib)

I don't think the UI design with QT takes more work than any other. Of
course, you have to get used to it, but then it is really fast, and - best
of all - you get platform independent UIs that can be freely resized
without loss of quality.

> I have often wondered why Visual C++ (MSVC) is so called?

Marketing? When Visual xyz came out, everybody spoke about "RAD" (rapid
application development), so declaring software "visual" seemed a good idea
to Microsoft.

Richard Bos

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Jul 30, 2002, 5:38:59 AM7/30/02
to
pl...@plugh.info (Plugh!) wrote:

> Did anyone ever do a survey on this n.g to detrmine which Operating
> System is most widely used (by developers, not players)?
>
> In any case, which o/s do you use?

For IF, MS-DOS. You may scoff, but it's way more stable than the popular
alternative, and I cannot use Unix here.

Richard

JohnF

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Jul 30, 2002, 5:59:35 AM7/30/02
to

"Plugh!" <pl...@plugh.info> wrote in message
news:68bd0e8.02072...@posting.google.com...

I am an exclusive windows user (XP,ME and 98), I also use Delphi and a bit
of C++Builder who has been lurking here for a few weeks

J


Frank Otto

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Jul 30, 2002, 9:40:59 AM7/30/02
to
It looks like Plugh! <pl...@plugh.info> wrote:
:
: In any case, which o/s do you use?

For playing as well as my feeble attempts at developping IF: Linux.

Debian GNU/Linux 3.0, to be exact.

Cheers,
Frank

--
Frank Otto pci uni heidelberg de
dot at dot dash dot

DarrenH

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Jul 30, 2002, 10:17:32 AM7/30/02
to
Win98SE.


"Plugh!" <pl...@plugh.info> wrote in message
news:68bd0e8.02072...@posting.google.com...

Eytan Zweig

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Jul 30, 2002, 11:28:58 AM7/30/02
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"DarrenH" <or...@dh.com> wrote in message news:0ex19.4051$V21.57657@news...
> Win98SE.
>

Win 98SE here too, at least for the moment. I use Microsoft VC++ for
developing (TADS 2 for developing IF but I haven't done that in a while).

Eytan


OKB (not okblacke)

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Jul 30, 2002, 12:41:29 PM7/30/02
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Plugh! wrote:

> Did anyone ever do a survey on this n.g to detrmine which Operating
> System is most widely used (by developers, not players)?

Assuming you mean developers of IF games, as opposed to developers
of IF authoring systems. . .



> In any case, which o/s do you use?

. . . Windows 98.

--
--OKB (not okblacke)
"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go, instead, where there is
no path, and leave a trail."
--author unknown

Joe Mason

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Jul 30, 2002, 12:42:14 PM7/30/02
to
In article <68bd0e8.02072...@posting.google.com>, Plugh! wrote:
> Strange! so far, only one person admits to using Windows (from an
> admittedly small sample), but even he doesn't use it exclusively.
>
> I would have expeceted 80-90% Windows response - I wonder if it's like
> the french with Le Pen - everyone knows windows will landlslide it, so
> windows voters don't bother, figuring the others will carry it for
> them.

I use Linux (Debian unstable), but I'm happy enough with Windows XP that
I'm thinking I might not bother to install Linux on my new machine. I
might just install cygwin instead.

Then again, I've already got it all partitioned and everything...

> I use both Windows & Linux. I have been using Windows for development,
> because I have a very stronbg preferance for Borland C++ Builder. I
> could change that to Obejct Oriented Pascal and use Borland
> Delphi/Kylix, thus having executables for both Windows & Linux.

Or you could get a cross-platform toolkit. I like Qt
(http://www.trolltech.com), which is actually what Borland uses for its
Linux ports. The graphical version of the Hugo engine uses wxWorks.

(Qt supports Windows, OSX, and various Unixes through X11. Not sure
about wxWorks.)

That'll let you keep using C++, you'd just have to learn a new API
instead of MFC or the Borland framework or whichever you're using right
now. And Qt's a pretty easy API to learn - way, way easier than MFC,
that's for sure.

(One caveat: I think Qt's only 'officially supported' with Visual C++.
I don't know enough about the differences between Windows compilers to
know how much of a problem this is.)

> Alternatively, I could continue as I am & ask the Linux users to run
> Wine.

That actually wouldn't be too bad (if you want to be nice to them, you
could even release a version linked with Winelib). The problem with
Wine is that it's a little hit-or-miss whether it'll work with a given
program or not. If you put a note saying, "This has been tested under
Wine." I'd have no problem using it. If not, unless your game has
gotten really rave reviews I probably wouldn't bother.

Joe

Joe Mason

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Jul 30, 2002, 12:44:00 PM7/30/02
to
In article <68bd0e8.02072...@posting.google.com>, Plugh! wrote:
> The whole point of my program is that it is GUI based. I looked at all
> of the "Visual C, Visual This, Visual That, Visual Whatever" for Linux
> and was not very impressed. They either require _much_ more work on
> the part of the programmer than the Borland products (e.g Qtlib), or
> are heading in Borland's direction, but are far from complete.

Oops, I see you've already looked into the suggestions I gave in my last
post. Sorry to waste your time.

Joe

A.P. Hill

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Jul 30, 2002, 1:09:20 PM7/30/02
to
I use a Texas Instruments calculator with solar power. Have you seen
those yet? You don't need batteries, just program under a lamp. I
was able to reconfigure the earphones jack that goes into back of the
calculator and replace with a CDRom drive. I can't get a monitor to
work, so I'm forced to parse using numbers as letters, 71077345 is
SHELL OIL upside down, you get the picture. Anyone, this is what
makes my IF pieces so special, when you consider the disadvantages.
Um..What's your excuse?

A.P. Hill
Eddie Fiola of TADS

D. R. Porterfield

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Jul 30, 2002, 1:51:46 PM7/30/02
to
pl...@plugh.info (Plugh!) wrote in message news:<68bd0e8.02072...@posting.google.com>...

[snip]

> In any case, which o/s do you use?

I do my programming (Inform) and most game-playing on my Mac at home
(OS9).

At work, I use Windows NT. I don't do game coding at work, but
occasionally if I have some downtime I'll do a little alpha testing on
the game I'm working on, just to make sure it plays okay with a
different OS and interpreter.

Kent Tessman

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Jul 30, 2002, 1:59:32 PM7/30/02
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"Joe Mason" <j...@notcharles.ca> wrote in message
news:slrnakdge...@zork.plover.net...

> Or you could get a cross-platform toolkit. I like Qt
> (http://www.trolltech.com), which is actually what Borland uses for its
> Linux ports. The graphical version of the Hugo engine uses wxWorks.
>
> (Qt supports Windows, OSX, and various Unixes through X11. Not sure
> about wxWorks.)

It's wxWindows, actually. Both the X11 (Linux/Unix) and Mac ports of Hugo
use basically the same wxWindows-based porting layer. (The X11 version is
GTK-based; at one time they were looking at a wxQt port.) The reason the
Windows version doesn't as well is because there was already a Windows port
of Hugo by the time I discovered it. I had originally decided to use it
because I thought I could kill three birds (X11, Mac, and BeOS) with one
stone, but the BeOS port hasn't happened yet, and I ended up doing a native
BeOS port anyway.

--Kent

Daniel Barkalow

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Jul 30, 2002, 4:31:13 PM7/30/02
to
On 30 Jul 2002, Plugh! wrote:

> Question : Is there a free windows emulator for the Mac? In theory,
> now that OS X (I think it is called) is Unix based, someone should be
> working to port Wine to the Mac too.

That would be great for running PPC Windows programs, but WINE actually is
just the libraries and system call support for windows programs; it runs
the programs themselves on the actual processor, which means you need an
x86 processor.

-Iabervon
*This .sig unintentionally changed*

Robert

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Jul 30, 2002, 7:38:33 PM7/30/02
to
pl...@plugh.info (Plugh!) wrote in news:68bd0e8.0207292314.408557c7
@posting.google.com:

> Strange! so far, only one person admits to using Windows (from an
> admittedly small sample), but even he doesn't use it exclusively.
>
> I would have expeceted 80-90% Windows response - I wonder if it's like
> the french with Le Pen - everyone knows windows will landlslide it, so
> windows voters don't bother, figuring the others will carry it for
> them.
>

Yes.

Although, I don't know that it is the expectation of a "landslide"
exactly that keeps the Windows users from speaking up en masse. It's
probably more that ALL users are naturally apathetic, and the non-Windows
users have been TRAINED to be less apathetic. =)

> I use both Windows & Linux. I have been using Windows for development,
> because I have a very stronbg preferance for Borland C++ Builder. I
> could change that to Obejct Oriented Pascal and use Borland
> Delphi/Kylix, thus having executables for both Windows & Linux.
>

You're doing this for free, right? Stick to C++Builder.

Who knows, but if I was betting, I wouldn't bet on the fact that there's
one or more Linux-only users out there whose only obsticle to creating a
masterwork of IF is not having a visual system like yours.

Mac? Maybe...

> Alternatively, I could continue as I am & ask the Linux users to run
> Wine.
>

This Linux user won't bother installing VMWare or Wine to run your
application. Please don't take that personally. There are many very nice
Windows programs, but I haven't seen one I can't live without.

I've used both VMWare & Wine more than all the Linux users I know, and I
haven't used either in over a year. I know there are people out there
that do use them--but many of us don't.

On the other hand, as I implied above, I don't necessarily think you
should go out of your way to support us Linux zealots.

> Question : Is there a free windows emulator for the Mac? In theory,
> now that OS X (I think it is called) is Unix based, someone should be
> working to port Wine to the Mac too.
>

The only free solution I know of is bochs. It has been ported to OS X.
It's sort of like VMWare except that it emulates the processor as well.

Recompiling your app for OS X using the Wine library might be possible.
Running the x86 executable with Wine under OS X would require a x86
emulator, and I don't think one has ever been integrated with Wine.

Adam Thornton

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Jul 30, 2002, 9:00:34 PM7/30/02
to
In article <Xns925BBDA30A47...@127.0.0.1>,

Robert <rob...@ibooks.com> wrote:
>This Linux user won't bother installing VMWare or Wine to run your
>application. Please don't take that personally. There are many very nice
>Windows programs, but I haven't seen one I can't live without.

Bah!

Most users won't even install a freaking *ATARI 2600* emulator to play
the most, um, semaphoric work of IF to come down the pike in many a long
year.

Bitterly,
Adam

david carlton

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Jul 30, 2002, 11:30:18 PM7/30/02
to
In article <ai3tsg$10qlig$1...@ID-151409.news.dfncis.de>, "Nikos Chantziaras" <rea...@hotmail.com> writes:
> "Plugh!" <pl...@plugh.info> wrote in message
> news:68bd0e8.02072...@posting.google.com...

>> However, I am still waiting for Borland to produce its


>> long promised Linux port of the C++ Builder.

> If you're using C++, the only thing you have to do is making it


> ANSI-compatible and use portable libraries (QT for example).

I still hear informed people claim that there don't exist _any_ fully
standards-compliant C++ compilers.

Certainly there seem to currently be more Linux installations using a
pre-3.0 version of GCC than ones using GCC 3.x; this means that, under
Linux, you have to either give up on many features in the standard or
distribute statically linked binaries (which raise problems of their
own). And I'm not sure how bug-free GCC 3.1's C++ support is, either.

>> In any case, which o/s do you use?

Linux for most of my computer usage. I have Windows around for some
games, but if something weren't available for Linux that that would
make it much less likely that I'd use it.

David Carlton | <http://math.stanford.edu/~carlton/>
car...@math.stanford.edu | Go books: <http://www.gobooks.info/>

Th' PINK SOCK... soaking... soaking... soaking... Th' PINK
SOCK... washing... washing... washing... Th' PINK
SOCK... rinsing... rinsing... rinsing...

david carlton

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Jul 30, 2002, 11:35:11 PM7/30/02
to

> Don't you use Wine (or VmWare, etc) to save having to boot into
> windows just to run a game ?

Wine's support for Windows games is far from complete. VmWare costs
a fair amount of money, and I'd be a bit surprised if it didn't impose
a noticeable performance hit for games. (I could be wrong about that,
though - anybody playing Morrowind under VmWare?)

Are we THERE yet? My MIND is a SUBMARINE!!


Kevin Forchione

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Jul 31, 2002, 2:11:19 AM7/31/02
to
"Plugh!" <pl...@plugh.info> wrote in message
news:68bd0e8.02072...@posting.google.com...
> Strange! so far, only one person admits to using Windows (from an
> admittedly small sample), but even he doesn't use it exclusively.

Windows XP.

--Kevin


lookmark

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Jul 31, 2002, 9:08:11 AM7/31/02
to
Mac OS X 10.1.5.

And still waiting hopefully for the coming-soon, native version of
HyperTADS...

I don't think it's *too* odd to see that many people who are
interested in IF are using alternative operating systems. No?

Ally M.

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Jul 31, 2002, 9:08:40 AM7/31/02
to
Robert <rob...@ibooks.com> wrote in
news:Xns925BBDA30A47...@127.0.0.1:

> pl...@plugh.info (Plugh!) wrote in news:68bd0e8.0207292314.408557c7
> @posting.google.com:
>
>> Strange! so far, only one person admits to using Windows (from an
>> admittedly small sample), but even he doesn't use it exclusively.
>>
>> I would have expeceted 80-90% Windows response - I wonder if it's
>> like the french with Le Pen - everyone knows windows will landlslide
>> it, so windows voters don't bother, figuring the others will carry it
>> for them.
>>
>
> Yes.
>
> Although, I don't know that it is the expectation of a "landslide"
> exactly that keeps the Windows users from speaking up en masse. It's
> probably more that ALL users are naturally apathetic, and the
> non-Windows users have been TRAINED to be less apathetic. =)

Or maybe they feel guilty ;)

(As for me, Win XP pro when I want to do stuff without spending a week
figuring out _other_ stuff first, Linux when the above is not the case,
Amiga OS when I'm lying in bed, Mac OS 9 when I'm at the academy)

~Ally

[rest snipped]

Will Grzanich

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Jul 31, 2002, 10:14:21 AM7/31/02
to
pl...@plugh.info (Plugh!) wrote in message news:<68bd0e8.02072...@posting.google.com>...

[snip]

> In any case, which o/s do you use?

Right now, Windows 2000, but only because I use my laptop for school,
too, and my university is hopelessly Windows-centric. Otherwise, I'd
probably be using Red Hat.

-Will

Jessica Knoch

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Jul 31, 2002, 12:02:05 PM7/31/02
to
"Plugh!" <pl...@plugh.info> wrote in message
news:68bd0e8.02072...@posting.google.com...

[snip]

> In any case, which o/s do you use?

Windows 2000, Windows ME. (Someone's gotta speak up for the apathetic
Windows users :-).

Jess K.

Mark Borok

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Jul 31, 2002, 12:16:16 PM7/31/02
to
<pl...@plugh.info> wrote:

> Strange! so far, only one person admits to using Windows (from an
> admittedly small sample), but even he doesn't use it exclusively.
>
> I would have expeceted 80-90% Windows response - I wonder if it's like
> the french with Le Pen - everyone knows windows will landlslide it, so
> windows voters don't bother, figuring the others will carry it for
> them.
>

> I use both Windows & Linux. I have been using Windows for development,
> because I have a very stronbg preferance for Borland C++ Builder. I
> could change that to Obejct Oriented Pascal and use Borland
> Delphi/Kylix, thus having executables for both Windows & Linux.
>

> Alternatively, I could continue as I am & ask the Linux users to run
> Wine.
>

> Question : Is there a free windows emulator for the Mac? In theory,
> now that OS X (I think it is called) is Unix based, someone should be
> working to port Wine to the Mac too.

There is a commercial PC emulator that can run Windows and any other
Intel-based OS. None that are free that I've heard of.

I use MacOS 9.1.

--Mark

Joe Mason

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Jul 31, 2002, 12:25:19 PM7/31/02
to
In article <8uA19.1524$672.7...@news20.bellglobal.com>, Kent Tessman wrote:
> "Joe Mason" <j...@notcharles.ca> wrote in message
> news:slrnakdge...@zork.plover.net...
>> Or you could get a cross-platform toolkit. I like Qt
>> (http://www.trolltech.com), which is actually what Borland uses for its
>> Linux ports. The graphical version of the Hugo engine uses wxWorks.
>>
>> (Qt supports Windows, OSX, and various Unixes through X11. Not sure
>> about wxWorks.)
>
> It's wxWindows, actually. Both the X11 (Linux/Unix) and Mac ports of Hugo

You're right. Where did I get Works from? Is there a vxWorks or
something I was confusing it with?

Joe

Shadow Wolf

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Jul 31, 2002, 12:35:43 PM7/31/02
to
ad...@fsf.net (Adam Thornton) wrote in news:ai7cri$r7p$1...@news.fsf.net:

^^^^^^^^^^
> year.

I mis-parsed that as "sophomoric" -- was that actually a mis-parse?


--
Shadow Wolf
shado...@softhome.net
Stories at http://www.asstr.org/~Shadow_Wolf

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Shadow Wolf

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Jul 31, 2002, 12:38:08 PM7/31/02
to
pl...@plugh.info (Plugh!) wrote in
news:68bd0e8.02072...@posting.google.com:

>
> In any case, which o/s do you use?
>

I'll add my votes: Windows 98SE on my desktop, Windows 95 on my ancient
laptop, and Windows NT at work (plus various Unixes, but not for I-F).

Adam Thornton

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Jul 31, 2002, 2:33:38 PM7/31/02
to
In article <Xns925C650CFED2s...@128.242.126.67>,

Shadow Wolf <shado...@softhome.net> wrote:
>> the most, um, semaphoric work of IF to come down the pike in many a long
>I mis-parsed that as "sophomoric" -- was that actually a mis-parse?

Yes, it was a mis-parse.

Adam

Robert

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Jul 31, 2002, 5:17:44 PM7/31/02
to
ad...@fsf.net (Adam Thornton) wrote in news:ai7cri$r7p$1...@news.fsf.net:

> In article <Xns925BBDA30A47...@127.0.0.1>,

Atari 2600 emulator? Now that's another kettle of fish altogeher. Maybe
I'll install one of those this weekend. Playing Kaboom! with a keyboard...

Alex Watson

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Jul 31, 2002, 7:59:12 PM7/31/02
to
Plugh! spake thusly:

> I reckon that I am code complete on my program (see
> http://ww.plugh.info) and have implemented Cloak of Darkness and have
> started on Drift Day Ditcher, to verify that it generates the correct
> TADS code. The next step should be to beta test it, then finally get a
> v1.0 out.
>
> However, I am still waiting for Borland to produce its long promised
> Linux port of the C++ Builder. An alternative would be to convert the
> whole thing to Delphi/Kylix where one set of code will generate
> executables for both WIndows & Linux (sorry, still no Mac). Of course,
> that would destablize it and Linux users _could_ use it with Wine.
>
> Did anyone ever do a survey on this n.g to detrmine which Operating
> System is most widely used (by developers, not players)?
>
> In any case, which o/s do you use?

If you care, I use Doze for everything right now, mainly because debian's
post-intall config broke on me and I haven't bothered to get woody CDs
yet.

Nikos Chantziaras

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Aug 1, 2002, 4:02:51 PM8/1/02
to
"Plugh!" <pl...@plugh.info> wrote in message
news:68bd0e8.02072...@posting.google.com...
> > Unix is, IMAO, *the* system for programming in general.
> Command line based, I'll agree with you. After that, it's horses for
> courses - and if you insist on C++, it must be Borland C++ Builder -
> which is curerntly only available for windows. They have indicated
> that a Linux version is coming, but won't commit to a firm date (last
> I got in a private e-mail was 2nd quarter, 2002 (!).

Yes, Unix is more difficult to use than Windows/Mac. But think of the
advantages. By using GCC, you can write really portable code with it.
I know, designing forms, buttons, etc with C++ Builder is easy. But
there are also such tools for the X-Window system. Not as easy to use
as the Borland/Microsoft tools, but one can get used to them (well, at
least I did).

> The whole point of my program is that it is GUI based. I looked at
> all of the "Visual C, Visual This, Visual That, Visual Whatever" for
> Linux and was not very impressed. They either require _much_ more
> work on the part of the programmer than the Borland products (e.g
> Qtlib), or are heading in Borland's direction, but are far from
> complete.

A solution to this is separating the GUI from the portable parts of
your application. You can use Abstract Base Classes for this. The
result is that you can continue using C++ Builder (as long as the
portable parts of your source are not Borland specific). If you're not
afraid of more work, then this is the way to go.

> I have often wondered why Visual C++ (MSVC) is so called? Perhaps
> using an IDE qualifies it as 'visual'?

Marketing. C++ is not a visual language. The GUI is visual, the rest
not (you *have* to write code, the GUI can't automate this). A visual
language doesn't need textual code; you "paint" your program. The
FAQ-document from comp.lang.visual explains things in great detail.

> if you ever used MS Visual Basic,

I don't even know how the "Hello world" program looks like in Basic
("Visual" or not). The only proprietary development tools I ever tried
are Delphi (various demo versions), Symantec C++ 6.1 Pro, and the old
Borland compilers from the stone age (Turbo Pascal/C/C++). Today, I
use GCC and FPC.

> you will have a feel for the Borland products: they offer a component
> palette, like a paint program, from which you drag menus, radio
> buttons, etc onto your program's form, then click them to write the
> code behind them. There are dozens of standrd components, including
> all the ones you see in normal wiindows, plus a bunch more, and
> thousands of freeware components developed by hobbyists, some quite
> complex (the compoennts, not the hobbyists (hmm, who knows, though
> ?).

The main reasons I don't use proprietary tools are portability and the
fact that they are quite expensive (I'm just a hobbyist; my job is not
even remotely computer-related). And when it comes to compiler
features (ANSI/ISO, optimization), I think GCC is better than any of
the Borland/Microsoft systems.

> Don't you use Wine (or VmWare, etc) to save having to boot into
> windows just to run a game ?

Normally, I simply reboot the machine, since the only things that seem
to run in Wine are Minesweeper, Solitaire and some old non-DirectX
games. Most other stuff (including HTML Tads) crashes sooner or later
:-/ As for VMWare, my Pentium 133 just can't run that fast enough.

-- Niko

Nikos Chantziaras

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Aug 1, 2002, 4:39:39 PM8/1/02
to
"david carlton" <car...@math.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:ro1heig...@jackfruit.Stanford.EDU...

> I still hear informed people claim that there don't exist _any_ fully
> standards-compliant C++ compilers.

Hmm. I think GCC is as close to ANSI/ISO as a compiler can get.

> Certainly there seem to currently be more Linux installations using a
> pre-3.0 version of GCC than ones using GCC 3.x; this means that, under
> Linux, you have to either give up on many features in the standard or
> distribute statically linked binaries (which raise problems of their
> own). And I'm not sure how bug-free GCC 3.1's C++ support is, either.

I agree. But same goes for other compilers (and besides, who owns C++
Builder?)

-- Niko

Nikos Chantziaras

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Aug 1, 2002, 4:47:24 PM8/1/02
to
"Joe Mason" <j...@notcharles.ca> wrote in message
news:slrnakg3r...@zork.plover.net...

> You're right. Where did I get Works from? Is there a vxWorks or
> something I was confusing it with?

http://www.xs4all.nl/~borkhuis/vxworks/vxworks.html
http://www.windriver.com/products/html/vxwks5x.html

-- Niko

Kevin Bracey

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Aug 1, 2002, 5:40:18 PM8/1/02
to
In message <aic69s$139qqr$1...@ID-151409.news.dfncis.de>
"Nikos Chantziaras" <rea...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> "david carlton" <car...@math.stanford.edu> wrote in message
> news:ro1heig...@jackfruit.Stanford.EDU...
> > I still hear informed people claim that there don't exist _any_ fully
> > standards-compliant C++ compilers.
>
> Hmm. I think GCC is as close to ANSI/ISO as a compiler can get.

It's good in terms of supporting features, but you've got to put an awful lot
of switches on to get the diagnostics you should.

And back on thread, I use RISC OS...

--
Kevin Bracey
http://www.bracey-griffith.freeserve.co.uk/Z/

Joao Mendes

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Aug 1, 2002, 7:40:06 PM8/1/02
to
Hello, :)

BTW, to be on topic, exclusive Windows user. Laptop w/ 98SE and desktop w/
2000 Pro.

Also, a warning: although I was a professional programmer for a great
number of years, I am not a computer science theorist, so take my views as
a grain of salt.

"Nikos Chantziaras" <rea...@hotmail.com> wrote in news:aic44t$12t449$1@ID-
151409.news.dfncis.de:

> "Plugh!" <pl...@plugh.info> wrote in message
> news:68bd0e8.02072...@posting.google.com...

>> I have often wondered why Visual C++ (MSVC) is so called? Perhaps


>> using an IDE qualifies it as 'visual'?

> Marketing. C++ is not a visual language. The GUI is visual, the rest

Marketing is probably the right answer, although I would note that the GUI
_as combined with an appropriate library_ (MFC, ATL, whatever) does
automate a great deal of stuff.

> not (you *have* to write code, the GUI can't automate this). A visual
> language doesn't need textual code; you "paint" your program. The

I have yet to find a development system in which you never have to write a
single line of script or code or whatever. Even Toolbook has a scripting
language and that's about as visual as I can conceive of... IMHO, being
visual is not an all or nothing deal, it's a spectrum. Granted, Toolbook is
a lot more visual than VC++, but VC++ is still more visual than say MS
QuickC. (Which also has a GUI IDE, btw)

> FAQ-document from comp.lang.visual explains things in great detail.

I've read this document. Not being a part of that group, I don't feel
qualified to say that it's right or wrong. However, I _can_ say that it's
inconsistent, as I have personally produced _non trivial_ VB sw where I
didn't have to write code.

Then again, I may be completely off-base, here. I had never even heard of
GIL or Miro... :/

Cheers,

J.

Edward Franks

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Aug 1, 2002, 7:55:54 PM8/1/02
to
My glass typewriter shows Plugh!, <pl...@plugh.info> pondering...
[Snip]

> However, I am still waiting for Borland to produce its long promised
> Linux port of the C++ Builder. An alternative would be to convert the
> whole thing to Delphi/Kylix where one set of code will generate
> executables for both WIndows & Linux (sorry, still no Mac). Of course,
> that would destablize it and Linux users _could_ use it with Wine.

The C++ support in Kylix 3 isn't sufficient?

--

Fortran | "There isn't enough darkness in the world
EDL | to quench the light of one small candle."

David Given

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Aug 1, 2002, 1:41:29 PM8/1/02
to
In article <Qwr19.26817$9U4....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
lrasz...@loyola.edu (L. Ross Raszewski) writes:
[...]
> It's very strange, but every poll that's ever been done shows a nearly
> equal proportion of Windows, *nix, and Mac users (And we've got a
> couple of users of even *more* arcane systems out on the fringe). The
> IF community does not represent the population at large.

Nah, it's not strange. It's the Poll Effect.

The problem is that the poll is not representative of raif as a whole.
It's representative of the people *who responded to the poll*. As a
result, you've carefully polled only those people who feel strongly
enough about their OS to respond to questions about it, which gives you
a disproportionate number of alternative OS results.

Designing good polls (and designing polls intended to produce the
desired result) is a huge industry, and as a general rule they're not
worth the effort.

(There's a very good reason why responding to censuses is compulsory.
It's to try and avoid self-selection.)

> For what it's worth, Windows 98 at home, with the occasional linux
> when I have cause (most of what I do is net.surfing and playing video
> games, so linux is far from ideal), Solaris at work.

Linux & BSD. I have Windows, but I only use it when I absolutely have
to.

--
+- David Given --McQ-+ "You cannot truly appreciate _Atlas Shrugged_
| d...@cowlark.com | until you have read it in the original Klingon."
| (d...@tao-group.com) | --- Sea Wasp on r.a.sf.w
+- www.cowlark.com --+

David Given

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Aug 1, 2002, 1:43:01 PM8/1/02
to
In article <slrnakg3r...@zork.plover.net>,
Joe Mason <j...@notcharles.ca> writes:
[...]

> You're right. Where did I get Works from? Is there a vxWorks or
> something I was confusing it with?

Yes. It's the embedded operating system from hell. It's used a lot in
things like space probes (Pathfinder ran it), which surprises everyone
at work here, because we're struggling to keep it going stably for more
than five minutes at a time.

Plugh!

unread,
Aug 2, 2002, 3:03:21 AM8/2/02
to
> Oops, I see you've already looked into the suggestions I gave in my last
> post. Sorry to waste your time.

You didn't waste my time - you made me decide to go back and take
another look at what's available. I have an open mind and if I find
some Qt tool which is as good as the Delphi/Kylix offering, I'll start
using it.

In the meantime, of course, you could look at Delphi/Kylix :-)

Plugh!

unread,
Aug 2, 2002, 3:07:03 AM8/2/02
to
> > Don't you use Wine (or VmWare, etc) to save having to boot into
> > windows just to run a game ?
>
> Wine's support for Windows games is far from complete.
I'l agree with that. I suppose that it's fancy graphics/sound
erquirements? It shouldn't, however, affect sime programs like WinHtml
(if we imagine there weren't a Linux version), or my program.

> VmWare costs a fair amount of money,

Very true! Wonder if it ever shows up on eBay? I suppose that naughty
boys just hack it.

> and I'd be a bit surprised if it didn't impose
> a noticeable performance hit for games.

I only ever really used it in the office, for s/w developemnt, where
most was under Linux, but we had to run a few Windows tools. It was
acceptable, but of course, it's games & porn that define thw cutting
edge :-)

Plugh!

unread,
Aug 2, 2002, 3:19:31 AM8/2/02
to
> Yes, Unix is more difficult to use than Windows/Mac. But think of the
> advantages. By using GCC, you can write really portable code with it.
For CLi based stuff, but then we get back to using Qt, etc for teh GUI
and I jsut don't see the tools to make it easy.

> I know, designing forms, buttons, etc with C++ Builder is easy. But
> there are also such tools for the X-Window system. Not as easy to use
> as the Borland/Microsoft tools, but one can get used to them (well, at
> least I did).

OK, I'll bite, it has been a year, maybe even two, since I last
checked them out. Waht would you recomemnd? You have tried soem Delphi
demos, so you knwo what I am looking for. As I said elsewhere, I am
open minded and more then willing to jump on a new bandwagon.

Btw, do you know if Qt ports to Mac?

> A solution to this is separating the GUI from the portable parts of
> your application. You can use Abstract Base Classes for this. The
> result is that you can continue using C++ Builder (as long as the
> portable parts of your source are not Borland specific). If you're not
> afraid of more work, then this is the way to go.

No, I'm not afraid of more work. This is a keep me busy project more
than it is a produce a nice program for people to use project, so a 3
to 6 month rewrite isn't the end of the world and in fact, such
separation is pretty simple - jsut separate the visual control event
handlers from the rest - juggling files, but no class abstraction
necessary.


> I don't even know how the "Hello world" program looks like in Basic
> ("Visual" or not). The only proprietary development tools I ever tried
> are Delphi (various demo versions), Symantec C++ 6.1 Pro, and the old
> Borland compilers from the stone age (Turbo Pascal/C/C++). Today, I
> use GCC and FPC.

FPC? Is that the Free Pascal project, or something else? Do you
regularly use any GUI generation tool?


> The main reasons I don't use proprietary tools are portability and the
> fact that they are quite expensive (I'm just a hobbyist; my job is not
> even remotely computer-related).

Delphi/Kylix can use each other's code and are free for non-commercial
use. these are _excellent_ tools and code written once can be
re-compiled for Windows or Linux. All that's missing is MAC (sure, you
can start talking about PDAs, Win Ce, etc, but then I doubt that Qt,
etc port to those eitehr).

> And when it comes to compiler
> features (ANSI/ISO, optimization), I think GCC is better than any of
> the Borland/Microsoft systems.

That could well be true, but if you only ever use one compiler, it's
enough that it supports what it supports (I presume if you wanted to
port to DOS, you would use Cygwin or DJGP & stick with GCC; if you are
using GCC on all platforms, it's jsut like using Delphi/Kylix on all
platforms).

Additionally, I am sure that most are 99% compliant and that I am
highly unlikely to use the obscure 1%.

Thanks for the input - and please let me know what alternatives you
would suggest.

Plugh!

unread,
Aug 2, 2002, 3:23:35 AM8/2/02
to
Edward Franks <fortra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.17b38685e...@news.alt.net>...

> My glass typewriter shows Plugh!, <pl...@plugh.info> pondering...
> [Snip]
> > However, I am still waiting for Borland to produce its long promised
> > Linux port of the C++ Builder. An alternative would be to convert the
> > whole thing to Delphi/Kylix where one set of code will generate
> > executables for both WIndows & Linux (sorry, still no Mac). Of course,
> > that would destablize it and Linux users _could_ use it with Wine.
>
> The C++ support in Kylix 3 isn't sufficient?

Hot Damn!!!! why does no-one ever tell you these things?? When did
that happen??

May Allah smile on you and all your camels; may the Pope sing a mass
for your eternal soul; may UFOs abduct you and use you in bizarre sex
experiments; may your in-tray be forever free of spam.

thank you! thank you! thank you!

Plugh!

unread,
Aug 2, 2002, 4:47:21 AM8/2/02
to
> It's very strange, but every poll that's ever been done shows a nearly
> equal proportion of Windows, *nix, and Mac users (And we've got a
> couple of users of even *more* arcane systems out on the fringe). The
> IF community does not represent the population at large.

Aha! so, there _have_ been polls. That's inetersting. do you have any
URLs to hand? If not, I'll believe you, which means that I need to get
a way to develop for MACs (I must admit that I get a fair proportion
of e-mail from mac users).

Plugh!

unread,
Aug 2, 2002, 5:00:15 AM8/2/02
to
> I use Linux (Debian unstable), but I'm happy enough with Windows XP that
> I'm thinking I might not bother to install Linux on my new machine. I
> might just install cygwin instead.
You're a brave man, to admit that :-)

> Or you could get a cross-platform toolkit. I like Qt
> (http://www.trolltech.com), which is actually what Borland uses for its
> Linux ports. The graphical version of the Hugo engine uses wxWorks.
>
> (Qt supports Windows, OSX, and various Unixes through X11. Not sure
> about wxWorks.)

I'll check it out. It might be worth the move if I can port to Mac
using it (and it looks like I can).

> > Alternatively, I could continue as I am & ask the Linux users to run
> > Wine.
>

> That actually wouldn't be too bad (if you want to be nice to them, you
> could even release a version linked with Winelib). The problem with
> Wine is that it's a little hit-or-miss whether it'll work with a given
> program or not. If you put a note saying, "This has been tested under
> Wine." I'd have no problem using it. If not, unless your game has
> gotten really rave reviews I probably wouldn't bother.
That problem vanishes if I use Qt - BUT - Stp press!! someone just
posted that Kylix 3 supports C++ too, so I ought to be able to just
recompile my windows source for Linux - and only the poor suers are
left out in the cold :-)

(and, btw, it's not a game, but an i-f cevelopment tool - check out
http://www.plugh.info )

Plugh!

unread,
Aug 2, 2002, 5:02:18 AM8/2/02
to
> I am an exclusive windows user (XP,ME and 98), I also use Delphi and a bit
> of C++Builder who has been lurking here for a few weeks

The great news is that BOrland just released Kylix which now supports
C++ in addition to Delphi! Check it out (and get a copy of Linux).

Are you developing anything for i-f?

Plugh!

unread,
Aug 2, 2002, 5:04:26 AM8/2/02
to
"OKB (not okblacke)" <Bren...@aol.com> wrote in message news:<Xns925B61...@199.45.49.11>...

> Plugh! wrote:
>
> > Did anyone ever do a survey on this n.g to detrmine which Operating
> > System is most widely used (by developers, not players)?
>
> Assuming you mean developers of IF games, as opposed to developers
> of IF authoring systems. . .
That's what I meant.

Also, I have beeen meaning to ask the group for ages - whatever
happened to okblacke? He gave me probably more help, ideas & support
than anyone else at one time?

Matthew Russotto

unread,
Aug 2, 2002, 10:13:08 AM8/2/02
to
In article <aic69s$139qqr$1...@ID-151409.news.dfncis.de>,

Nikos Chantziaras <rea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"david carlton" <car...@math.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>news:ro1heig...@jackfruit.Stanford.EDU...
>> I still hear informed people claim that there don't exist _any_ fully
>> standards-compliant C++ compilers.
>
>Hmm. I think GCC is as close to ANSI/ISO as a compiler can get.

GCC is far from standard. And in fact, the GCC docs advocate that you
go ahead and use all the GNU extensions and to heck with the standards
-- just use GCC for everything. There's a name for that philosophy when
a certain large software firm uses it: "Embrace and extend".
--
Matthew T. Russotto mrus...@speakeasy.net
=====
Every time you buy a CD, a programmer is kicked in the teeth.
Every time you buy or rent a DVD, a programmer is kicked where it counts.
Every time they kick a programmer, 1000 users are kicked too, and harder.
A proposed US law called the CBDTPA would ban the PC as we know it.
This is not a joke, not an exaggeration. This is real.
http://www.cryptome.org/broadbandits.htm

JohnF

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Aug 2, 2002, 12:17:56 PM8/2/02
to

"Plugh!" <pl...@plugh.info> wrote in message
news:68bd0e8.02080...@posting.google.com...

I have done a somewhat hacked conversion of the 550 point adventure into
BC++ from some source which i got from who knows where - not the original
Fortran but a C version which had all the game files as external resources
and then compiled them. I would have to dig to find exactly what it was - I
just wanted to get my son hooked on it like I was when I first found it on a
Harris mini computer in the 70's.

At the moment I am fiddling with a TADS idea, but it will be fairly short. I
am always interested in collaborating on development and have just got Kylix
free when I bought Delphi 6 Enterprise ( ouch! ) . I have a spare PC which
could run LINUX and a cover disk version of linux (suse?) so I may well have
a fiddle with that.

JohnF


Robert

unread,
Aug 2, 2002, 12:40:30 PM8/2/02
to
OK. I can't resist. I still think Plugh should stick with C++Builder if
that's what he prefers. But, if you're really considering rewriting in
Delphi so you can have a Linux version...

Have you considered Java? I've heard good things about JBuilder. Like
everything, Java certainly has its problems, but there are plenty of
projects out there that show that it get the job done.

If you stick with C++ and try to make a clean separation between UI & "back
end" code, then you should try to keep your back end as portable as
possible. Then you have the chance that others will be willing to create
the GUIs for other platforms for you.

Fortran

unread,
Aug 2, 2002, 11:46:33 PM8/2/02
to
In <68bd0e8.02080...@posting.google.com> Plugh! wrote:
> Edward Franks <fortra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.
> 17b38685ec5...@news.alt.net>...

>> My glass typewriter shows Plugh!, <pl...@plugh.info> pondering...
>> [Snip]
>> > However, I am still waiting for Borland to produce its long
>> > promised Linux port of the C++ Builder. An alternative would be to
>> > convert the whole thing to Delphi/Kylix where one set of code will
>> > generate executables for both WIndows & Linux (sorry, still no Mac).
>> > Of course, that would destablize it and Linux users _could_ use it
>> > with Wine.
>>
>> The C++ support in Kylix 3 isn't sufficient?
>
> Hot Damn!!!! why does no-one ever tell you these things??

What fun would that be? :-P

> When did that happen??

About a week or so ago.

> May Allah smile on you and all your camels; may the Pope sing a mass
> for your eternal soul; may UFOs abduct you and use you in bizarre sex
> experiments; may your in-tray be forever free of spam.
>
> thank you! thank you! thank you!

Thank Borland. ;-)

Now if they would make a Mac OS X version. JBuilder is cool, but I
want their Delphi and C++ tools, too...

--

Fortran
EDL

okb

unread,
Aug 3, 2002, 7:03:18 PM8/3/02
to
pl...@plugh.info (Plugh!) wrote in message news:<68bd0e8.02080...@posting.google.com>...

>
> Also, I have beeen meaning to ask the group for ages - whatever
> happened to okblacke? He gave me probably more help, ideas & support
> than anyone else at one time?

I pop in occasionally, but I don't follow the group much any more for
various reasons.

New version of Plugh!?

Hey, didn't I recommend you use Delphi for it?

;-)

[ok]

Plugh!

unread,
Aug 4, 2002, 9:17:51 AM8/4/02