Pen and Ink Sketching, not sure what to get
kevin_who
a uni-ball vision fine tip pen. Nothing fancy, just your regular
office depot pen. But I've been using it for years. I like this
medium, but it doesn't give
me a variety of line thickness that I would ike to get. It's great for
crosshatching which is my usual shading method.
I bought some of these pen point tips that you dip in ink and put on a
stick, but they aren't very good for what I'm doing. They don't lay
down ink in a variety of directions. It seems that pulling down is the
best way for these. It's like they were made for writing, not drawing.
Any advice on some other utensils to use would be great. I'm not
familiar with rapidographs or bamboo pens, etc.
Richard
preference. They get more expressive as they run out of ink. Easy to shape
the line by rolling the pen to the edge of the flat 'nib'.
Eliska
Rapidograph lines won't vary anymore than the uni-ball pen that you now use and the pens
are a pain to keep up.
To achieve a similar result you can purchase disposable Pigma Micron pens - the ink is
archival and they come in a wide range of point sizes
Alvyn makes a product called Penstix that also come in various widths and the thicker
points (i.e. 0.7mm which they call Fine but it's thicker IMO) will create variety.
There are a wide variety of 'pen point tips that you dip in ink and put on a stick' and
they take getting used to. I love to use crow quill points.
Lots of products out there and I'm sure others in this group will fill you in
Eliska
Chris
of thing (fair number of nibs available), or get one of the new "brush
ens" - I don't know who makes those, as my son ran off with the one I
had....An acquaintance does wonderful drawings with balsa - he gets balsa
sticks of various sizes from a model supply store, and trims them to
whatever size he wants & dips them in ink. It's very effective for getting
interesting line quality.
A method I like is to use the relatively cheap Staedler flow-point pens
(they come in black, red, blue, and green); draw with those and then use
water and a brush over the result to increase the body.
Chris
"kevin_who" <kevi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f6e2f193.03032...@posting.google.com...
C. Enna
kevi...@yahoo.com says...
>I bought some of these pen point tips that you dip in ink and put on a
>stick, but they aren't very good for what I'm doing.
I have no idea what you're doing, but the variety
of pen nibs available for dip pens, and the economy
of buying only the nib vs buying an entire pen,
is their great advantage, IMO. Additionally, you
need not worry about the type ink you use when using
dip pens - no clogging problems etc. Since you are apparently
needing something to suit a particular technique,
you will need to do your own exploration for what
'fits your need.'
C. Enna
says...
>
>You can get a relatively cheap calligraphy pen from Schaeffer for this sort
>of thing (fair number of nibs available)
The greatest problem with most 'mechanical' pens
is their tendency to clog with India inks, or
inks that are labeled as 'waterproof.' One of the
best all-around India inks I've ever used is an
"FW" brand available from any supplier handling
Daler-Rowney products. It's specially formulated
for use in technical pens of all kinds.
Erik A. Mattila
Kevin, I agree with those who recommend a calligraphic pen. I would
add, however, the brand "Osmiroid" which is an old standard, but now
harder to find. Http:www.flaxart.com has a nice set for twenty bucks
(half price). Just type "osmiroid" into their search field.
If you want to see the results, take a look at Dan O'Neill's comix (Odd
Bodkins, Air Pirates etc.) Dan uses Osmiroid exclusively. He told me
once "I hate artists" but, ironically, his work is among the most
"artistic" of any, especially considering the quality of line in his
work. Check it out: http://www.oddbodkins.com/
As for dip pens, as Jack mentions. Great things, but it takes a while
to build-up the work habits to be successful, especially stray ink blobs
that ruin your work. The really sharp crowquills have a nasty habit of
picking-up paper fibres and making a mess too. But once you master
them, they rock.
Erik
C. Enna
>The really sharp crowquills have a nasty habit of
>picking-up paper fibres and making a mess too.
Excellent entry to another point for this thread,
the kind of paper or board or whatever you use
is as critical to the 'artistic intent' as is
the inking pen. I personally prefer 'Bristol' board
for pen and ink, simply because I can get the
fine linear details I seek and the board takes
a watercolor wash very well. Some 'board' types
have a rather flaky surface that interferes with
the fine pen nib's action - and clogs the tubular
type mechanical pens. Illustration board and hot-press
watercolor board are also good choices.
Another aside: some artists enjoy the stippling
experience using pen and ink. For that the best
pen in my experience is the tubular kind. Someone
will have to help me with what they are 'officially'
called - having a senior moment here. In any event,
you can buy them in sets with different size tubes
from extra-fine to coarse.
Eliska
>In article <3E7A9D1A...@oco.net>, emat...@oco.net says...
>
>>The really sharp crowquills have a nasty habit of
>>picking-up paper fibres and making a mess too.
>
>Excellent entry to another point for this thread,
>the kind of paper or board or whatever you use
>is as critical to the 'artistic intent' as is
>the inking pen. I personally prefer 'Bristol' board
>for pen and ink, simply because I can get the
>fine linear details I seek and the board takes
>a watercolor wash very well.
I wasn't paying attention the other day and started doing a watercolor commission on mat
board. YUK - bleed city
>Another aside: some artists enjoy the stippling
>experience using pen and ink. For that the best
>pen in my experience is the tubular kind. Someone
>will have to help me with what they are 'officially'
>called - having a senior moment here. In any event,
>you can buy them in sets with different size tubes
>from extra-fine to coarse.
>
In my more insane moments i think about doing huge stipple pictures
Eliska
Peter H.M. Brooks
"C. Enna" <ce...@noemailever.com> wrote in message
news:3e7b...@news.zianet.com...
feeling of finality that pencil doesn't - though I find now that I never rub
out with pencil either. I think that work with watercolour has helped me
both to get things right the first time and, when things don't turn out
exactly as you expect, to use the unexpected to make the drawing more
interesting.
I have used pieces of card, the size of a postcard, to capture scenes in pen
& ink when travelling and found that to be a first rate medium too.
Of course, if you are seeking the more commercial perfection then indeed
Bristol board is the best choice.
--
Language such as we should now expect to hear only from the most ignorant
clowns.
- Macaulay sur de Marche
Lauren Foster-MacLeod
> the kind of paper or board or whatever you use
> is as critical to the 'artistic intent' as is
> the inking pen. I personally prefer 'Bristol' board
> for pen and ink, simply because I can get the
> fine linear details I seek and the board takes
> a watercolor wash very well. Some 'board' types
> have a rather flaky surface that interferes with
> the fine pen nib's action - and clogs the tubular
> type mechanical pens. Illustration board and hot-press
> watercolor board are also good choices.
Hi! I use Strathmore for pen and ink work, and esp. like the plate finish
for this. One ply allows tracing of roughs underneath, using a light
table, or a daylit window. (This is for my illustration work in black and
white.) I would choose the two or three ply, and probably not the plate
finish for work using other mediums, such as watercolour, acrylic or muxed
media.
> Another aside: some artists enjoy the stippling
> experience using pen and ink. For that the best
> pen in my experience is the tubular kind. Someone
> will have to help me with what they are 'officially'
> called - having a senior moment here. In any event,
> you can buy them in sets with different size tubes
> from extra-fine to coarse.
This wouldn't be drafting pens, would it? I have been using the Koh-i-nor
Rapidiograph for about 30 years (not the same one, mind you; I need to
replace them about every 2 years), and like them a lot, esp. if I want to
overlay the pen work with watercolour or acrylic. Also great for
hand-lettering, but NOT for calligraphy. Then you need a calligraphy nib
on a pen such as those that have been mentioned here. I used to have an
Osmiroid sketchpen, as was mentioned here. I liked it a lot for sketching,
but missed the waterproof ink of my Rapidiograph.
Spring wishes,
Lauren
--
THE BLESSED BEE
www.blessedbee.com
samples/subscription info:
in...@blessedbee.com
Erik A. Mattila
You mean like "technical pens?" They evolved from the earlier ink
plotter, I'm guessing?
>
>
Erik A. Mattila
>>Another aside: some artists enjoy the stippling
>>experience using pen and ink. For that the best
>>pen in my experience is the tubular kind. Someone
>>will have to help me with what they are 'officially'
>>called - having a senior moment here. In any event,
>>you can buy them in sets with different size tubes
>>from extra-fine to coarse.
>
>
> This wouldn't be drafting pens, would it? I have been using the Koh-i-nor
> Rapidiograph for about 30 years (not the same one, mind you; I need to
> replace them about every 2 years), and like them a lot, esp. if I want to
> overlay the pen work with watercolour or acrylic. Also great for
> hand-lettering, but NOT for calligraphy. Then you need a calligraphy nib
> on a pen such as those that have been mentioned here. I used to have an
> Osmiroid sketchpen, as was mentioned here. I liked it a lot for sketching,
> but missed the waterproof ink of my Rapidiograph.
>
> Spring wishes,
> Lauren
The antique osmiroids were snorkel pens, so you could use Indian ink.
The cartridge pens I don't know. I can't see why you couldn't reload a
cartridge with, say, Koh-i-nor ink.
Erik
Eliska
>
>You mean like "technical pens?" They evolved from the earlier ink
>plotter, I'm guessing?
>
>>
>>
Anyone here ever use a ruling pen. Those things are awesome
Eliska
C. Enna
says...
>This wouldn't be drafting pens, would it? I have been using the Koh-i-nor
>Rapidiograph for about 30 years
Yes, that's the 'tubular' pen I was referring to.
But I'm not sure if 'rapidograph' is a trademarked
name or not. I was trying to think of a generic
name - and perhaps it is 'rapidograph.'
>I used to have an
>Osmiroid sketchpen, as was mentioned here. I liked it a lot for sketching,
>but missed the waterproof ink of my Rapidiograph.
I have tried a number of 'mechanical' pens over the
years. I even splurged and bought a Montblanc after
seeing a professor of art who carried one around.
But I've never found a mechanical pen that could
equal the flexibility (literal) of the dip pen
nibs. Someone referred to the "crow quill." I love
the ability to be able to use the single quill to
go from very fine lines to a broader line, depending
on the amount of pressure applied as you sketch.
And for 'very fine' lines I simply turn the nib
over and use the 'back side.'
C. Enna
says...
>Anyone here ever use a ruling pen. Those things are awesome
Do you mean one of those like draftsmen use?
The one with an adjustable thumb wheel? They
are useless for anything other than ruling
a straight line, IMO. Not suited at all to
freehand sketching.
C. Enna
>The antique osmiroids were snorkel pens, so you could use Indian ink.
>The cartridge pens I don't know. I can't see why you couldn't reload a
> cartridge with, say, Koh-i-nor ink.
I am not familiar with Osmoroid other than I know
I've seen them and considered them. The other pens
I own will take either pre-loaded cartridges or
you can use reloadable ones that will take any
ink you choose to use. For example: Montblanc.
The refillable cartridges have a plunger that has
a thumb screw that actuates the plunger as you
dip the pen into the ink well.
Another mechanical pen that I have has interchangeable
nibs - they screw in - in very fine, fine and
coarse. PELIKAN or PELICAN. In any event, the
nib has the outline of a pelican on it. These
take the same refillable cartridge as the Montblanc,
so perhaps they are made by the same German company.
Eliska
Those are the ones
Right! Not good for sketching,
Just wondered if anyone had used them
There's something very satisfying when you reach the point that you can get from one end
of your line to the other, lift up and not blob the ink
Eliska
Lauren Foster-MacLeod
> Lauren Foster-MacLeod wrote:
>> I used to have an
>> Osmiroid sketchpen, as was mentioned here. I liked it a lot for sketching,
>> but missed the waterproof ink of my Rapidiograph.
> The antique osmiroids were snorkel pens, so you could use Indian ink.
> The cartridge pens I don't know. I can't see why you couldn't reload a
> cartridge with, say, Koh-i-nor ink.
The ink I used in the Rapidograph would have destroyed the Osmiroid pen,
whiich was a fountain-style type. The Rapidograph ink I use now (the F
type) is probably better, and helps my Rapidographs live longer, but I
wouldn't use it in the Osmiroid, which I still might have around somewhere.
I'm used to babying my special equipment, so I do my best to take care of
it. (probably also, because I'm cheap!) :)
Lauren Foster-MacLeod
>
> I am not familiar with Osmoroid other than I know
> I've seen them and considered them. The other pens
> I own will take either pre-loaded cartridges or
> you can use reloadable ones that will take any
> ink you choose to use. For example: Montblanc.
> The refillable cartridges have a plunger that has
> a thumb screw that actuates the plunger as you
> dip the pen into the ink well.
That's the way my old Osmiroid pen worked
> Another mechanical pen that I have has interchangeable
> nibs - they screw in - in very fine, fine and
> coarse. PELIKAN or PELICAN. In any event, the
> nib has the outline of a pelican on it. These
> take the same refillable cartridge as the Montblanc,
> so perhaps they are made by the same German company.
Pelikan is a German company and makes drawing ink as well. Not sure if
Mont Blanc is owned by the same company. It's hard to keep up with who
owns who, and who is taking over whom.... Is Mont Blanc a German company?
Erik A. Mattila
True, but if you ever want to lay down some hard edge painting, acrylic
or oil, they rule (pun alert). They work with Copenhagen curves also, as
well as spline/duck(weights)systems as in nautical drafing. No studio
should be without one.
Erik A. Mattila
Boy, this is a blast from the past. Pelikan products were the standards
in the graphic arts studios in the pre-computer era. The line of opaque
water color tubes were incredible -"Designer Colors." Beautiful colors
and paint properties.
Erik A. Mattila
Really? How so? I mean by being corrorsive or something like that? Or
are you talking about the clog/flake factor? I've had to use the
koh-i-nor mylar ink from time to time - and what a gluupy mess if you
let it hang around untouched in a pen for a week or so.
Erik
C. Enna
>True, but if you ever want to lay down some hard edge painting, acrylic
>or oil, they rule (pun alert). They work with Copenhagen curves also, as
>well as spline/duck(weights)systems as in nautical drafing. No studio
>should be without one.
I do use one for straight linear work where
I want a relatively narrow line. But they
do take some getting used to if one is to
avoid a blotched job. Much like learning to
handle a brush, IMO. When doing drafting work
one tends to work much more methodically,
as well as carefully, to avoid an error.
When I'm doing my art work, accidents rule!
C. Enna
says...
>Is Mont Blanc a German company?
>
>Lauren
Trust in Google as you would the Lord!
Ernst Rösler, the inventor of the “Mont-blanc Architect’s pen,”
was born in 1888, the seventh child of a government employee.
He studied naval engineering and, during World War One, he
served in the German Navy as chief engineer on a submarine.
In 1916, while on military leave, he met Anne-marie Voss,
daughter of Claus Voss, one of the principals of
the Simplo Füllfeder Gesellschaft, **predecessor of the Montblanc
Company in Hamburg.**
C. Enna
>Really? How so? I mean by being corrorsive or something like that? Or
>are you talking about the clog/flake factor? I've had to use the
>koh-i-nor mylar ink from time to time - and what a gluupy mess if you
>let it hang around untouched in a pen for a week or so.
>
>Erik
As I've mentioned every time this subject
comes up, having used MANY brands of ink
over time I have never found one that works
better than the FW india ink now produced by
Daler-Rowney after the company in the USA
that originally made FW was bought out,
and that company was bought out by D-R.
Now I have no idea if the ink is still made
in the original formula since I've not
bought any recently. My alternative ink
of choice has long been the Rotring brand.
Rotring produces a line of "artist colors"
that work as well as any I've used in all
kinds of pens, including mine with the
re-loadable cartridge feature.
Incidentally, since we're discussing pen
types, I have a set of Rotring's "Art
Pens" that come in various width nibs.
These too use the refillable cartridges
and I keep two at my command - one filled
with FW india ink and the other with
Rotring red 'artist color.' These "art pens"
are nice to hold and work with since they
have long slender handles reminiscent of
the dip pens I love to work with. Problem
is that the nibs are NOT flexible like the
dip pen nibs. But because they hold a lot of
ink, there is the advantage of not having
to be dipping all the time.
Lauren Foster-MacLeod
>> Another mechanical pen that I have has interchangeable
>> nibs - they screw in - in very fine, fine and
>> coarse. PELIKAN or PELICAN. In any event, the
>> nib has the outline of a pelican on it. These
>> take the same refillable cartridge as the Montblanc,
>> so perhaps they are made by the same German company.
>
> Boy, this is a blast from the past. Pelikan products were the standards
> in the graphic arts studios in the pre-computer era. The line of opaque
> water color tubes were incredible -"Designer Colors." Beautiful colors
> and paint properties.
.... blasts from the past is right... I still have some Pelikan
"Chin-Chin" drawing ink. It's probably 25 years old. When I was looking
around to find my old Osmiroid pen, I came across an old (and unusable)
drafting pen by Mecanorma -- a "Graphoplex." They were a competitor of
the Koh-i-noor Rapidograph for a while, and their rub-on lettering system
competed with Letraset... remember Letraset! Back then I was doing layout
work, and constantly had to run down to the art supply store for another
sheet when I'd run out of "e"'s or something... :) I still have an old
Letraset catalogue around to refer to when I'm doing hand-lettering design
work.
Lauren (who DOESN'T live where it's hot -- I'm up in eastern Canada)
Lauren Foster-MacLeod
> In article <b5gjjm$ru0$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>, dz...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
> says...
>>Is Mont Blanc a German company?
>
> Ernst Rösler, the inventor of the “Mont-blanc Architect’s pen,”
> was born in 1888, the seventh child of a government employee.
> He studied naval engineering and, during World War One, he
> served in the German Navy as chief engineer on a submarine.
> In 1916, while on military leave, he met Anne-marie Voss,
> daughter of Claus Voss, one of the principals of
> the Simplo Füllfeder Gesellschaft, **predecessor of the Montblanc
> Company in Hamburg.**
Thanks for that. I had always supposed they were French, because the name,
"Mont Blanc" is French. But... I think (don't know) that the actual
mountain is somewhere near or bordering France and Germany. I don't have a
good atlas to let me know EXACTLY! Rats!
Lauren Foster-MacLeod
> Lauren Foster-MacLeod wrote:
>> The ink I used in the Rapidograph would have destroyed the Osmiroid pen,
>> whiich was a fountain-style type. The Rapidograph ink I use now (the F
>> type) is probably better, and helps my Rapidographs live longer, but I
>> wouldn't use it in the Osmiroid, which I still might have around somewhere.
>> I'm used to babying my special equipment, so I do my best to take care of
>> it. (probably also, because I'm cheap!) :)
>
> are you talking about the clog/flake factor? I've had to use the
> koh-i-nor mylar ink from time to time - and what a gluupy mess if you
> let it hang around untouched in a pen for a week or so.
Exactly. I guess it's the price we pay to have waterproof ink. It
certainly isn't like traditional India Ink, but I hate to think what it
would do to a fountain pen. Cleaning my set of Rapidographs in preparation
for illustration work, I take them apart and clean each section, esp. the
nib part (which is a long wire in the fine pens), VERY carefully.
I wouldn't be able to do that with a fountain-style pen, so I expect it
wouldn't last very long, unless you cleaned and flushed out the ink after
each using.
Peter H.M. Brooks
"Lauren Foster-MacLeod" <dz...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:b5hpff$mu7$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
mountains. The highest peak, known also as Mont Blanc, is in France - it
happens to be the highest point in Western Europe at nearly 5000m.
--
When you were born, everyone was smiling but you were crying, Live such a
life that when you depart, everyone is weeping but you are smiling -Sa'di of
Shiraz
Humbert_Campbell
> I want to try some new methods of sketching. Currently I use
> a uni-ball vision fine tip pen. Nothing fancy, just your regular
> office depot pen. But I've been using it for years. I like this
> medium, but it doesn't give
> me a variety of line thickness that I would ike to get. It's great for
> crosshatching which is my usual shading method.
>
> I bought some of these pen point tips that you dip in ink and put on a
> stick, but they aren't very good for what I'm doing. They don't lay
> down ink in a variety of directions. It seems that pulling down is the
> best way for these. It's like they were made for writing, not drawing.
>
> Any advice on some other utensils to use would be great. I'm not
> familiar with rapidographs or bamboo pens, etc.
A lot of these new "Gel" pens are great. Throw down your drawing and
it tends to stay wet for a bit of time. You can work into the drawing
with water to play with some fun effects. You can get some interesting
effects laying water down first and then drawing on the moist paper.
Also some flat panels resistant to absorbing water are great for
moving those things around.
For really great line quality you can play with thugh I would just go
to a Japanese caligraphy brush with ink. Its the best quality line I
have found. Its tough to master but very rewarding.
dont have time to wade through all the posts so maybe thats already
been suggested regardless try it out.
HC
OH! One more thing. A friend of mine used to use the plastic inserts
to repidographs and cut them open at an agle and draw directly with
that. It was really loose really fun stuff. For more technical
controll he used to put his pencil, charcoal, whatever on the end of a
stick and draw from further back. Ive tried it and it can be really
fun.