Artistic Integrity versus Marketing Savvy
Larry Seiler
an arts discussion group recently, which I know from past exchanges here
would interest a number of people. We are discussing that old common
thing that comes up about selling work, is work good beCAUSE it sells?
What of innovative work that does not? etc; here is a comment I
had...see what your take on it is.
- - - - -
(anonymous comment to set up my response)
> I can't help but wonder if someone is
> afraid to risk showing their work are they affraid to take
> risks in their work, I don't know just a question for people
> to think about. I guess what I'm getting at is it doesn't
> matter whether we choose to market or not it's the work that's
> important and either choice has potential reprocussions to
> the work.
I have about six thoughts that go through my head at any one time, and
it
is tough for me to state simply what really is complex. Perhaps why I'm
an
artist and not yet officially an author.
It bothers me really as an educator of the arts in addition to being an
artist, that the unwitting public connects artistic genuis.....talent,
whatever to that which we all know full well comes down to marketing
savvy.
Something in us curdles that where a salesperson lacks in understanding
and articulating artistic excellence they make up in their ability to
pull
the wool over the public's eye.
For artists that have sacrificed years and years... principled
individuals,
come moments. Genuine moments of real difficulty emotionally,
struggling
to make ends meet. Aware of that circle of people whom because they are
NOT making decent sustainable income....make judgments leading to
rejection
and scorn for which the artist feels. Times when answering someone's
question about what it is you do for a living, and you tell them you are
an
artist immediately brings up a name of someone. "Oh...do you know
(so-and-so)? My sister-in-law bought one of his prints for my
brother."
This.."so-and-so"....turns out to be someone you know has ignored the
disciplines and sacrifice of further development to advantage himself
with
those evidently impressed with mediocrity and a "name".
You see him driving by with a new 4-wheel drive on his way to teach a
workshop sponsored by some community thing, where people are eager to
buy
his resin castings cranked out with little thought of whether or not his
next actually sculpture could be a better one. Again...because of a
name.
Its not so much that this individual has earned income that can be
troubling, it is that people are duped by marketing. The guy appears on
television, in the paper. Must be good. "Gosh...if I was going to buy
art, guess his would be the stuff to buy".
What bothers the many of us...is we know there is this gap...this huge
gap
between that which we know we must attend to. A thing called integrity.
WE know where we need improvement. What bothers us is....the public
does
not know this, and thus when we climb a level...advance, when we grow...
they have no discernable aesthetic skills to even help them acknowledge
what we have attained. No credit or fanfare for what is achieved. The
public needs the media.....the marketing people to tell them its time to
nod their heads in approval and utter the awe sound...."oooOooooohh"
....then, assure them for every reason except that which would appease
the
aesthetic in us, why they would be missing out if they didn't buy!
Its not about selling or not selling. Its that we are aware consciously
or
unconsciously that the public has no inkling in them to find aesthetic
reason to admire or accept our artMAKING. Only if there is promise to
raise their status.
We sometime resent those selling well not because of the money, but that
we
doubt the buyers can even begin to grasp the heart or pulse of why we
create and do what we do.
It has always bothered me to think a "great" salesperson might be able
to
talk a sale on a $3,000 painting of mine. Someone that four months from
now, maybe even struggling financially will look up at the work with
anger....with doubt...questions, maybe resentment for being taken in by
the
pitch....completely unaware of how a carefully placed brushstroke of a
highlight brought sudden sparkle and life to the painting. Marketing
has
removed the need for the public to understand our work. Some of us
laugh
all the way to the bank. Others feel cheated like a woman working the
street hearing talk of "love."
Am I making sense? Touching a common chord?
I think that we would wish our artmaking to be understood.....the genuis
for which we are striving that we have allowed ourselves to confuse that
desire and need with style, and what is art? Allowing division,
jealousy,
backbiting, etc;
Our finished painting really isn't it at all. Its about the "making" of
it. The "ah-HAH!" We would like the joy and passion which drives us to
be
sensed and understood....and somehow the "way" of which our art is
marketed
doesn't connect the patron first with that. We want the patron to know
what the art being made DID for us as artists, and then somehow invite
them
to stand there, look at it and somehow sense that...experiencing
"seeing"
with borrowed eyes in a new light. A salesman's pitch seems to route or
detour the viewer from that.
*note....this discussion group is a moderated cordial international
email digest artist's group. If you are interested in such, post me
privately.
peace,
Larry
artist's site- http://cwinc.net/larryseiler
WetCanvas Artists page- (shorter and quicker loading)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Gallery/S/Larry_Seiler/index.html
MFr7610711
they do is superior or above the common. It is not. Our gift of expressing
ourselves through paint or whatever is solely within the province of a gift of
God which we are to thoroughly enjoy and YES...make a living at it. What is it
that selling a painting somehow takes away from this lofty ideal. A plumber
plumbs, an electrician electrifies and we are no greater or lesser. What we
truly have is a department store full of free ideas we get to express without
anyone invoking their desire into the work. Artists should sell all their
work. Let those who cannot express themselves enjoy what we have done just as
we are privileged by the crafts and careers of others. They are doing things
we cannot do. Lets boil art down to size and let mankind chose. Yes they will
never UNDERSTAND (at least most of them will not) some form that is not
commonly recognized but there are those who will. You paint for yourself first
and then for others. If people do not appreciate it ..so be it. Why is it
writers can write articles for magazines on contract and then write their Great
American Novel. What you do is what you do...no big deal. Pepsi
Kay
MFr7610711 wrote in message
<19990815180928...@ng-fj1.aol.com>...
:Larry: Artists are true hypocrites in that they have this notion that what
Bryn,
You should speak for yourself. If you feel that you are doing something
equivalent to plumbing, that's fine. If Larry, or any of us, feel we are
doing something profound, we are.
Kay
Peter H.M. Brooks
>
> Bryn,
> You should speak for yourself. If you feel that you are doing something
> equivalent to plumbing, that's fine. If Larry, or any of us, feel we are
> doing something profound, we are.
>
I agree that it isn't anything 'equivalent to plumbing' - apart, maybe,
Damien Hurst with his tanks full of formaldehyde, which probably do require
a fair bit of plumbing.
I am not sure, though, that simply feeling that one is doing something
profound is sufficient. After all, we can wake from a dream, feeling that
we have thought something incredibly profound - only to find, if we have
written it down, that it is uttery trivial.
--
Peter H.M. Brooks
To be in process of change is not an evil, any more than to be the
product of change is a good.
- Marcus Aurelius.
Kay
:>
:> Bryn,
:> You should speak for yourself. If you feel that you are doing something
:> equivalent to plumbing, that's fine. If Larry, or any of us, feel we are
:> doing something profound, we are.
:>
:I agree that it isn't anything 'equivalent to plumbing' - apart, maybe,
:Damien Hurst with his tanks full of formaldehyde, which probably do require
:a fair bit of plumbing.
:
:I am not sure, though, that simply feeling that one is doing something
:profound is sufficient. After all, we can wake from a dream, feeling that
:we have thought something incredibly profound - only to find, if we have
:written it down, that it is uttery trivial.
Well, we can make one painting that we think is great and then, when it is
finished, realize that it is weak and/or trivial. But, if we make 10
paintings then either one should be incredibly profound, at least by our own
individual ability, or we should hang up our brushes and pick up a plunger.
But, if we are talking about ourselves as the deciding factor if the work is
trivial or not, then the absolutely most horrible artist you may know may
feel that his or her work is the most profound in the world, if Mommie gave
them enough praise so their self-esteem isn't under the floorboard with the
majority of the population. On that note, the artist we most admire may be
tormented with self-doubt and reject all critical acclaim and never feel the
art is worth anything at all. Probably end up a suicide like Rothko and so
many others. My own suspicion isn't that the plumber analogist has low
self-esteem, but that he is smart enough to know his strengths lay elsewhere
than art. Plumbers make a heck of a lot more than artists though, so maybe,
they are godlike as well.
Kay
:--
:
Peter H.M. Brooks
>
> :I agree that it isn't anything 'equivalent to plumbing' - apart, maybe,
> :Damien Hurst with his tanks full of formaldehyde, which probably do require
> :a fair bit of plumbing.
> :
> :I am not sure, though, that simply feeling that one is doing something
> :profound is sufficient. After all, we can wake from a dream, feeling that
> :we have thought something incredibly profound - only to find, if we have
> :written it down, that it is uttery trivial.
>
>
> Well, we can make one painting that we think is great and then, when it is
> finished, realize that it is weak and/or trivial. But, if we make 10
> paintings then either one should be incredibly profound, at least by our own
> individual ability, or we should hang up our brushes and pick up a plunger.
>
I agree, up to a point. I think that the sheer pleasure in painting is also
part of the reason for doing it. I have produced pieces that I haven't been
happy with later, but I still have enjoyed the process of doing them, and,
in seeing their deficiencies have learned something. I would hope that I
am never completely satisfied with everything that I produce as that would
mean that I was either not pushing my own boundaries, or had nothing more
to learn, both of which would be a disappointment.
>
> But, if we are talking about ourselves as the deciding factor if the work is
> trivial or not, then the absolutely most horrible artist you may know may
> feel that his or her work is the most profound in the world, if Mommie gave
> them enough praise so their self-esteem isn't under the floorboard with the
> majority of the population.
>
I am not sure that many people are so self-deluded. It is, of course, difficult
to be sure, as you can't see inside their heads. However, in the past, when
I have had, in the course of my job, to point out weaknesses in people [and
have hated and dreaded the experience!] I have always, without exception,
been amazed at how readily they admitted the problem and how well they
understood their own inadequacies.
>
> On that note, the artist we most admire may be
> tormented with self-doubt and reject all critical acclaim and never feel the
> art is worth anything at all. Probably end up a suicide like Rothko and so
> many others. My own suspicion isn't that the plumber analogist has low
> self-esteem, but that he is smart enough to know his strengths lay elsewhere
> than art. Plumbers make a heck of a lot more than artists though, so maybe,
> they are godlike as well.
> Kay
>
I doubt many plumbers enjoy working in dirty, smelly, cramped conditions where
the only result is money - the last plumber I met was full of envy for dentists,
because one had charged him even more than he did for a few minutes work. I
think that it is very sad if all you can work for is money.
I think some happy balance between suicidal doubt and baseless undentable
self-confidence is probably ideal. Since I think that it is the art that
matters, the feelings of the artist about its worth are less important to
me when looking at it. It is interesting to know how van Gogh felt, and
what his life was like, but that has no influence on my enjoyment of
looking at the original 'Potato Eaters'.
Larry Seiler
> plumbs, an electrician electrifies
and...if I were paying them $45 to come out to my house, and $40 per
hour thereafter, I would hope plumbing or electrician work is something
they not only do for a living, but think it significant enough that they
take extra steps to strive for excellence. I hope they see their role
important.
I hope they will do it to the glory of God...and to honor Him. I hope
they see it as their call...and that for THEM this is the high road.
That at the end of their days, they will have felt this vocation was
without regrets.
If this were a general newsgroup where we had many vocations and
advocations represented other than art, I would not presume to mention
that which I do with the passion and energy I possess other than in
passing. That would be presumptious arrogance wouldn't it?
> and we are no greater or lesser.
certainly we are not...and if I offended any plumbers or electricians
that felt it was their turn to talk about water problems or electricity
I apologize. Sorry...truly.
> Artists should sell all their
> work.
If you are going to speak theologically...then lets start by saying
artists are individuals first...with souls. If they recognize their
gifts as God given, then to honor God consistently in that same
theological philosophical vein for which you speak, it is useless to say
what artists "ought" to do if a Transcendent Absolute Being having first
place in their lives orders and prioritizes things a bit differently for
them. Their orders come from above then, do they not? They are to do
that by which they are "fully persuaded in their own minds" to
do...(Romans 14:5), and as the peace of God in their hearts
dictate...(Colossians 3:15).
> You paint for yourself first and then for others. If people do not
> appreciate it ..so be it.
This is inconsistent...first criticizing that artists think themselves
superior, but then saying they should paint for themselves whether
others appreciate it or not.
Which is it? Only a person thinking themselves by some degree superior
would do what they do WITHOUT regard to others impressions or opinions.
> What you do is what you do...no big deal.
If it is NO BIG DEAL then, why would you encourage artists then to go on
and paint whether others appreciate it or not? If it is no big deal,
they ought to find that which would better serve their fellow man. If
it is no big deal, there will come no ultimate satisfaction in finding
one's work offered a benefit to give him a place in "community."
It seems like you are both applauding and criticizing the same things.
Confusing to me...sorry.
(No malice intended)
peace,
Larry
Larry Seiler
> profound is sufficient.
Well...this conFUZZLES me! Having passion and integrity somehow turning
to be interpreted to mean we by all means ought to iconize ourselves and
worship ourselves is befuddling. I have been talking about doing art
with integrity and passion, if for no other reason than to maintain a
clear conscious that the artist is not letting the day pass by knowing
he/she allowed anything but the high road for him/her to be the one
sought to walk upon.
I would agree, and let me make clear I am not promoting arts and artists
as worthy of worship. It IS what WE do...and for that reason we should
find this a "safe" enough place to speak about that which for us holds
significance and meaning. What we do ought to have a profound sense to
us. If it holds no interest to us, certainly we have nothing to say to
viewers.
> After all, we can wake from a dream, feeling that
> we have thought something incredibly profound - only to find, if we have
> written it down, that it is uttery trivial.
I agree....and then we ought to contemplate...seek how we might have
done it again differently. Better. It is not failure if we learn from
it. Failures are good and necessary, and part of the path to
excellence.
peace,
Larry
Alison A Raimes
<lse...@execpc.com> writes
>
>I hope they will do it to the glory of God...and to honor Him. I hope
>they see it as their call...and that for THEM this is the high road.
>That at the end of their days, they will have felt this vocation was
>without regrets.
<snipped all the religious crap>
I always thought Larry was a particularly perceptive person until I read
this drivel. I guess he has been spending too much time in the wild on
his own. Get a grip, Larry - or go preach on the religious groups. There
are people here who are doing all sorts of jobs including plumbing and I
doubt there is a single one doing it for that fictitious *god* of yours.
Alison
Lauri.L.
There are people here, doing all sorts of jobs - including blow jobs.
If someone tells, though with odd religious terms, that he takes
artwork as seriously as any work,
particularly perceptive people would appreciate it.
- lauri
a tiny bit of skill
no art yet
--
//www.saunalahti.fi/~laurleva/
The fact that I abuse my office address does not
imply that my employer agrees with or is aware of
my opinions expressed here
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Lauri.L.
Alison A Raimes <Ali...@signature.in.address> wrote:
> In article <7pa8rv$8...@newsops.execpc.com>, Larry Seiler
> <lse...@execpc.com> writes
> There
> are people here who are doing all sorts of jobs including plumbing and
> I doubt there is a single one doing it for that fictitious *god* of
> yours.
>
> Alison
>
blow jobs just for thrill.
When someone tells - though with odd religious terms - that he takes
artwork as honestly as any work,
a particularly perspective person might appreciate that.
- lauri
just a tiny bit of skill
Alison A Raimes
<lauri....@nokia.com> writes
>There are people here who are doing all sorts of jobs, including
>blow jobs just for thrill.
>
>When someone tells - though with odd religious terms - that he takes
>artwork as honestly as any work,
>a particularly perspective person might appreciate that.
>
>- lauri
>just a tiny bit of skill
>no art yet
Ever had a thrill, Lauri ? No I didn't think so .... still its never too
late and you never know it might even convert your *tiny bit of skill*
to *art*.
I respect anyone's religious beliefs, particularly Larry's, but his post
is inexcusable. When someone comes onto a forum where there are too
many religious beliefs to list and starts telling a plumber he should be
excelling in his work for the grace of this so called *god* instead of
the necessity to feed a family and pay the bills -well, he either needs
to take a pill or open his eyes and look at the world outside his
*church*. I guess those Evangelical channels in the States really do
brain wash some folks.
BTW, maybe you can borrow his soap box after he is finished.
John Haber
>to be interpreted to mean we by all means ought
>to iconize ourselves and worship ourselves is befuddling.
Well, I suppose artists mostly keep going to find out what exactly it
is that they know. That's a kind of faith in oneself that's pretty
impressive, coupled with a healthy distrust of what one knows
**consciously**. Even Chris Burden never knew for sure whether he was
seeking out what it's like to be the iconic, tormented artist or
mocking the role.
mdeli
wrote:
>>A plumber
>> plumbs, an electrician electrifies
>
>and...if I were paying them $45 to come out to my house, and $40 per
>hour thereafter, I would hope plumbing or electrician work is something
>they not only do for a living, but think it significant enough that they
>take extra steps to strive for excellence. I hope they see their role
>important.
>
>I hope they will do it to the glory of God...and to honor Him. I hope
>they see it as their call...and that for THEM this is the high road.
I guess Larry even gets a God-on when he gets his toilet fixed.
>If you are going to speak theologically...then lets start by saying
>artists are individuals first...with souls.
Theology is pure bullshit. Nobody including you knows anything about
god.
> If they recognize their
>gifts as God given, then to honor God consistently in that same
>theological philosophical vein for which you speak, it is useless to say
>what artists "ought" to do if a Transcendent Absolute Being having first
>place in their lives orders and prioritizes things a bit differently for
>them. Their orders come from above then, do they not? They are to do
>that by which they are "fully persuaded in their own minds" to
>do...(Romans 14:5), and as the peace of God in their hearts
>dictate...(Colossians 3:15).
Is that a reference to the fascist in the sky who runs the universe's
largest concentration camp because he loves you ?
God is the mature man's Santa Claus.
Mani DeLi
...no skill no art
A Skeptical View of Modern Art was updated Jan.16,99
check out my new book, new work, new comments at:.
http://www.interlog.com/~hugod/
Kay
mdeli wrote:
(huge snippage)
:God is the mature man's Santa Claus.
:
:Mani DeLi
:...no skill no art
So, Mani, you agree with Alison then, right?
Kay
:
:A Skeptical View of Modern Art was updated Jan.16,99
Lauri.L.
Alison A Raimes <Ali...@signature.in.address> wrote:
> <lauri....@nokia.com> writes
>
> >There are people here who are doing all sorts of jobs, including
> >blow jobs just for thrill.
> >
> >- lauri
> Ever had a thrill, Lauri ? No I didn't think so .... still its never
> too late
It's a funny that teenagers never really believe
the previous generation made them, among other things.
( According an old English proverb
One should try everything once,
except incest and square dance.)
- lauri
--
"Off I go with my combat gear
to teach those who think otherwise a lesson or two ............. "
( A.A.Raimes)
Alison A Raimes
<scarl...@theriver.com> writes
>
>mdeli wrote:
>
>(huge snippage)
>:God is the mature man's Santa Claus.
>:
>:Mani DeLi
>:...no skill no art
>
>So, Mani, you agree with Alison then, right?
>Kay
No Kay - I disagreed with Larry's ideas that plumbers should work *to
the glory of God... and to honor Him* and then quoting from the Bible to
try and back it up. I am genuinely sorry if I upset Larry, but if he has
conviction in his beliefs then a *nobody* like me will not have any
affect on him.
The reality is that plumbers work because they didn't get the correct
education or the privileges of some people - or because they have a
house full of kids to cloth and feed and a mortgage around his neck.
When he has up to his elbows in shit I wonder how he would react if
asked if he was doing it for the *grace of god*. And then if they are
also artists, they will go to their studios to create in order to
survive the shit experience.
Alison
Kay
Alison A Raimes wrote:
:>mdeli wrote:
:>
:>(huge snippage)
:>So, Mani, you agree with Alison then, right?
:>Kay
:
:No Kay - I disagreed with Larry's ideas that plumbers should work *to
:the glory of God... and to honor Him* and then quoting from the Bible to
:try and back it up.
I've deleted the post, but I don't think he was saying that at all...
I am genuinely sorry if I upset Larry, but if he has
:conviction in his beliefs then a *nobody* like me will not have any
:affect on him.
:
:The reality is that plumbers work because they didn't get the correct
:education or the privileges of some people - or because they have a
:house full of kids to cloth and feed and a mortgage around his neck.
:When he has up to his elbows in shit I wonder how he would react if
:asked if he was doing it for the *grace of god*. And then if they are
:also artists, they will go to their studios to create in order to
:survive the shit experience.
:Alison
I think we have a cultural difference here, Alison. In the US the word
"poor" and "plumber" are totally contradictory. They do work in shit at
times, but their appearance is often more welcome than any "second coming"
of anyone. They make a fortune here, many make more than the medical and
legal professions. Their educations are often minimal. They are a force to
content with!
Kay
:ali...@raimes.demon.co.uk
:http://www.raimes.demon.co.uk
Alison A Raimes
<scarl...@theriver.com> writes
>
>I think we have a cultural difference here, Alison. In the US the word
>"poor" and "plumber" are totally contradictory. They do work in shit at
>times, but their appearance is often more welcome than any "second coming"
>of anyone. They make a fortune here, many make more than the medical and
>legal professions. Their educations are often minimal. They are a force to
>content with!
>Kay
Well I certainly don't know any rich plumbers in the UK so I guess you
must be right, Kay. Mind you it is hard to be rich at any menial job in
the UK.... I get around $10 bucks an hour for cleaning here, and my van
driving works out at around the same, especially now the price of gas
just shot up to almost $7 a gallon - maybe a little less. The basic
minimum wage in UK is around $6 US. You are correct about the cultural
differences though - what seems obscene to some is just fun to others.
You should see some of our TV here, it is outrageous .... and immensely
humorous (you would love it if you could keep up with the accents). It
makes the shenanigans on r.a.f look like nursery school playtime. I
don't think Europeans these days are easily shocked.
Whatever it was that Larry was saying, I think he has to take into
consideration that this is the case. There are people from vast areas of
the globe and with a number of different religious beliefs and different
cultures in forums like this. It would be highly offensive for Muslim or
Hindu plumber, for instance, to have someone quote passages from the
Bible at them in regard to their professional practise. Have you ever
noticed that a Muslim will never quote from the Quoran ?
In regards to Artistic integrity I firmly believe that one has to make
money any way possible in order to maximise the time spent in the
studio. That is the number one priority. Doing jobs that drain one of
imagination and energy don't do this. Marketing and selling your work
does. It requires an immense amount of extra time/effort and dealing
with an area that artists simply aren't suited for - the money market.
That is why we need agents and galleries to do it for us. Artists should
not be embarrassed by trying to sell at Arts and Crafts fairs or
anywhere else where people will buy their work in the early part of
their career. I know you disagree with this, but for many the options
are few and far between when starting out as an artist.
On that note I must practise what I preach and get some slides out to a
new consultancy that has just taken me on, and contact someone who has
invited me to exhibit in a group show. That will no doubt take up the
entire morning and if lucky I may even get to spill a few pots of paint
by this afternoon.
Cheers !
Alison
ali...@raimes.demon.co.uk
~Artist~
>
> Larry: Artists are true hypocrites in that they have this notion that what
> they do is superior or above the common. It is not. Our gift of expressing
> ourselves through paint or whatever is solely within the province of a gift of
> God which we are to thoroughly enjoy and YES...make a living at it. What is it
> plumbs, an electrician electrifies and we are no greater or lesser. What we
> truly have is a department store full of free ideas we get to express without
> work. Let those who cannot express themselves enjoy what we have done just as
> we are privileged by the crafts and careers of others. They are doing things
> we cannot do. Lets boil art down to size and let mankind chose. Yes they will
> never UNDERSTAND (at least most of them will not) some form that is not
> and then for others. If people do not appreciate it ..so be it. Why is it
> writers can write articles for magazines on contract and then write their Great
DITTO!!!!!!!!!!
Mattison
~Artist~
Often it can be seen like that because by the time it hits the poublic,
most real artists have been working on their careers...whatever
creative learning it might involve.... for 20 years or more. This is so
in my case.
Also, in my case I have miles of art world approval before marketing
was ever put into any of the studio operation business quotient. The
public really is too lazy to do the research except for the most
passionate collectors. The public is just happy to be slightly informed
on a couple of artists...they need to know there are a few nuts
freezing their heads off in studios ... doing the traditional striving
tiol you make it thing....all part of the tradition.
No big deal with it.
I was very cautious in moving my career along - not to do it without
solid art world support. I never thought I'd get it but when I did - I
thought - Hey - might help business and it is far smarter to step out
with the professional back up rather than not...makes all the other
business parts work better.
Most art profs necer get this I think because they are not hungry
enough. Everything is provided for them. They only earned a degree
and lucked out in academia. Way way harder is the real world of art
business.
If you teach you become a teacher and you do art on the side.
Sorry to say but many profs figure it out too late. This is not to
invalidate them it just is .
>
> For artists that have sacrificed years and years... principled
> individuals,
Yep - real artists.
> come moments. Genuine moments of real difficulty emotionally,
> struggling
Yep, recomitment all the time.
> to make ends meet. Aware of that circle of people whom because
Try emotional and economic struggle...alot men artists miss this
because they have wifey to admin or pay rent.
they are
> NOT making decent sustainable income....make judgments leading to
> rejection
> and scorn for which the artist feels.
NO REGRETS!!!!!!!
Times when answering someone's
> question about what it is you do for a living, and you tell them you are
> an
> artist immediately brings up a name of someone. "Oh...do you know
> (so-and-so)? My sister-in-law bought one of his prints for my
> brother."
> This.."so-and-so"....turns out to be someone you know has ignored the
> disciplines and sacrifice of further development to advantage himself
> with
> those evidently impressed with mediocrity and a "name".
Be patient.
Takes years to learn - they are just trying to relate to you.
>
> You see him driving by with a new 4-wheel drive on his way to teach a
> workshop sponsored by some community thing, where people are eager to
> buy
> his resin castings cranked out with little thought of whether or not his
> next actually sculpture could be a better one. Again...because of a
> name.
NO regrets yours or his.
He has bills you don't.
>
> Its not so much that this individual has earned income that can be
> troubling, it is that people are duped by marketing. The guy appears on
> television, in the paper. Must be good. "Gosh...if I was going to buy
> art, guess his would be the stuff to buy".
If you do not document there is no record. So many artists do not
take time to document. It is ahuge part of the responsibility of artsit.
If you don't take it all on and expecially your documentary
responsibilities to yourself and your career and your hard worlk and
your works, to me says you don't believe in yourself and you believe
in the myth of starving artist or you are just too lazy to do it all.
All in art is what it takes.
Comit or quit crying.
>
> What bothers the many of us...is we know there is this gap...this huge
> gap
> between that which we know we must attend to. A thing called integrity.
Integrity to self is first and intergrity to work is attached to that...no
one is perfect but if you don't get to this point - you won't ever make
it. Knowing this gives you a stronger sense of what artist is and what
it takes to take it all on and your steps get firmer and firmer the
longer you walk. Then the others the very few others who have
taken those risks .... they get it too.
Hi Nate!!!
> WE know where we need improvement. What bothers us is....the public
> does
> not know this, and thus when we climb a level...advance, when we
Yes, they do but in a different more questioning pondering way of
curoisity.
grow...
> they have no discernable aesthetic skills to even help them acknowledge
It is YOUR job as Artist to educate them.
> what we have attained. No credit or fanfare for what is achieved.
If you have the work and put it out there ...it will come.
Esp. if the work is there.
They know and you are told.
Simple - the art world responds - then the public.
At least in my case and with others I consider some of the best
American Pros.
The
> public needs the media.....the marketing people to tell them its time to
> nod their heads in approval and utter the awe sound...."oooOooooohh"
No - they need the art.
You are buying your own myths.
> ....then, assure them for every reason except that which would appease
> the
> aesthetic in us, why they would be missing out if they didn't buy!
Basic business sales big deal.
>
> Its not about selling or not selling. Its that we are aware consciously
It's about FUN!!!!
> or
> unconsciously that the public has no inkling in them to find aesthetic
NO way.
There are tons of great sensitive people in the public!
I love showing ... just to meet them...it brings them out.
> reason to admire or accept our artMAKING. Only if there is promise to
> raise their status.
There are always followers there would be no art world without
them.
Why condem for lack of risk taking?
Things take time - put time in do it right with all demands met and
you will get there....I did it. If I can get where I have by accident first
then articulated work and planning on top of several car accidents,
deaths or family and friends and con artists, without trust funds or
husband paying for everything.
Anyone can, most so called artists I see are aloof lazy arrogants who
think the world owes them because they create. HA! The world
owes you nothing and you get what you work for...simple as
that...luck is made.
>
> We sometime resent those selling well not because of the money, but that
> we
> doubt the buyers can even begin to grasp the heart or pulse of why we
> create and do what we do.
That sort of thinking is ignorant. You are disempowering the viewer
and the public - you give them no room to know you.
Art is about people - art is about YOU as a PERSON and your
personal journey and the public wants to share it with you!
What is so wrong with that...they are simple and not often on the
highbrow intellectual planes most artists are educated on - what is
wrong with that...? I have had Joe public say very enlightening
things!!!!!
In fact - I have kearned more from them than Art Profs!!!!!
LOL
>
> It has always bothered me to think a "great" salesperson might be able
> to
> talk a sale on a $3,000 painting of mine. Someone that four months from
> now, maybe even struggling financially will look up at the work with
> anger....with doubt...questions, maybe resentment for being taken in by
> the
> pitch....completely unaware of how a carefully placed brushstroke of a
> highlight brought sudden sparkle and life to the painting.
Don't worry about it.
They won't.
GOD GET OUT OF YOUR OWN FUNNED UP WAY!!!!!!
Marketing
> has
> removed the need for the public to understand our work. Some of
WRONG!!!
It gives the public a huge window to understand the work better.
us
> laugh
> all the way to the bank. Others feel cheated like a woman working the
> street hearing talk of "love."
It is your head.
>
> Am I making sense? Touching a common chord?
You are better at getting in lyour own way.
>
> I think that we would wish our artmaking to be understood.....the genuis
The public from my experience understand it more than I do! Tha tis
why I show - to learn what I am doig from them cause I can see the
works - it is like looking into a pond.
> for which we are striving that we have allowed ourselves to confuse that
> desire and need with style, and what is art? Allowing division,
> jealousy,
> backbiting, etc;
Green is acolor that has been here for centuries - bucket of crabs.
Another reason for you to stop working - GOOYOW!!!!!
>
> Our finished painting really isn't it at all. Its about the "making" of
> it. The "ah-HAH!" We would like the joy and passion which drives us to
> be
> sensed and understood....and somehow the "way" of which our art is
> marketed
Honey - it is all AHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
Deal or get out of the artworld.
Simple.
> doesn't connect the patron first with that. We want the patron to know
> what the art being made DID for us as artists, and then somehow
Soem patrons care some don't .
Does not influence my works ever. I paint what I paint.
invite
> them
> to stand there, look at it and somehow sense that...experiencing
> "seeing"
> with borrowed eyes in a new light. A salesman's pitch seems to route or
> detour the viewer from that.
NO way!
A good teacher or slaes person would invlove the integrity of it all.
Simple = truth works.
> peace,
> Larry
care
matters
Hell.e.cat war on FUN!!!!! http://www.anyco.com
Mattison Fitzgerald
Artist
http://www.rhinodev.com/M/799/BROCHURE799.html
http://www.rhinodev.com/M
~Artist~
12 works hung out of 17 shipped.
Other work to be rotated over the next few months.
Schedule change ... fire dept. slow on permits.
Grand Opening scheduled later in Sept. Friday 17th 5 - 8 pm.
Luck o'de hard work of the American Irish....they hung the biggest
art weekend 30K tourists in Santa Fe for the Indian Market
weekend. Next weekend 3 day - er....65K 4 color 2 sided = saved 5
years to afford... hit the streets of SF, BA, Mendo and Carmel -
Conquors de Elegance...Grand opening apperas to be cat.ching all
the top art zines and papers in SF town....tripple whammm.e.
Luck - they say you create it. I can't decide ....I just stand here and
stuff happens - really.
AMazing!!
hell.e.cat.go fot it does not get much more FUN!!!
http://www.anycom.com
If you don't go for it......
OH YOU ALL CAN JUST FUN RIGHT OFF!!!!!
If I can do this anyone can. Just make the sacrafices.
Ony 2 games in my studio - they both say RISK on the box.
Maybe now I can afford health care.
Mattison Fitzgerald
Artist
http://www.rhinodev.com/M/799/BROCHURE799.html
Aster Iske wrote:
>
> For those interested in the Art Faire scene,
> here is a web page article about the Santa Fe annual
> event.
>
> http://www.abqjournal.com/venue/arts/2arts08-15-99.htm
>
> Wonder if Mattison is in attendance along
> with all the 'other' celebs? Would she be
> disquised in warbonnet or squaw dress, do
> you think? All in good fun...
~Artist~
12 works hung out of 17 shipped.
Other work to be rotated over the next few months.
Schedule change ... fire dept. slow on permits.
Grand Opening scheduled later in Sept. Friday 17th 5 - 8 pm.
Luck o'de hard work of the American Irish....they hung the biggest
art weekend 30K tourists in Santa Fe for the Indian Market
weekend. Next weekend 3 day - er....65K 4 color 2 sided = saved 5
years to afford... hit the streets of SF, BA, Mendo and Carmel -
Conquors de Elegance...Grand opening apperas to be cat.ching all
the top art zines and papers in SF town....tripple whammm.e.
Luck - they say you create it. I can't decide ....I just stand here and
stuff happens - really.
AMazing!!
hell.e.cat.go fot it does not get much more FUN!!!
http://www.anycom.com
If you don't go for it......
OH YOU ALL CAN JUST FUN RIGHT OFF!!!!!
If I can do this anyone can. Just make the sacrafices.
Ony 2 games in my studio - they both say RISK on the box.
Maybe now I can afford health care.
Mattison Fitzgerald
Artist
http://www.rhinodev.com/M/799/BROCHURE799.html
~Artist~
work. There are academic requiremets of documentation. Simple as
that and it comes through the cirtic and the marketing and the public.
That is just the way it is and it is part of the job of artist do it right or
don't do it.
Integrity...if you don't owe it to yourself you can't give it to anyone.
I think Larry you have a major confidence problem and it apperas
easier for you to disempower others through your reaction vs
learning self proaction.
Quit the whining or take it on or sit in your studio into never never
land.
Deal.
Mattison Fitzgerald
Artist
M.
I've copied it out, thanks.
M.
~Artist~
>
> Great dialogue between two experienced articulate working artists.
> I've copied it out, thanks.
>
> M.
>
It is copyrighted.
Mattison Fitzgerald
Artist
~Artist~
> from God and Spirit Shower series at the Sept. 17th 5 - 8 pm Friday Evening ~ Grand Opening
> of Sirius Art Gallery Santa Fe Village Upper Level West, Santa Fe,
> New Mexico. Twelve of seventeen works shipped are on exhibiton
> and the remaining works will be rotated over the next several
> months. The exibit will run through the holidays.
>
> Mattison said "it was very exciting for the
> kids in my at rask neighborhood to see a large quantity of art being
> shipped out on a BIG truck. The entire neighborhood was so
> excited!
> I was simply numb. It is great to get a show in Santa Fe, I still can't
> believe it! One thing I'll never forget is how the kids in San Jose
> believe in the artists. It makes the challenges easier, knowing that
> the kids really believe in what artists do and that it makes a
> difference to them."
>
> Mattison Fitzgeralds' work from the 1998 'Gift From God' series
> was choosen for International Juried Exhibition by Period Art
> Gallery, Omaha, Nebraska. Mattison Fitzgeralds work was
> choosen from over 400 international entries for the exhibit
> "Abstraction '99 International Juried Exhibition" . Mattison said "I
> am flattered, shocked and suprised and really happy I used Mark
> Kramers handmade pastels!" http://www.periodgallery.com
>
> Mattison Fitzgerald Artist Interview
> KKUP 91.5 Radio
> August 25th, 1999 with 6:30 pm - 7:30
> With Paul Rickie Critic Art Radio
>
> Mattison Fitzgerald Participates
> Gualala Arts
> 7th Annual
> Studio Discovery Tour
> September 4th & 5th 7 and 11 & 12, 1999
> Mendocino & Sonoma Counties from Sea Ranch to Elk
> Complimentary Cat.alogue bfm...@mcn.org
> (See Press Release for More information)
>
> *Watch fo rthe Re-Grand Opening of Virtual Palo Alto*
> Mattison Art will be exhibited October1999
> Mattison Fitzgerald will show
> Selections from the Spaces Between Series
> TBA time & Date by Special Invitation
>
> REDWOODS R 2 RAIN FORESTS!
>
> More Art in the Redwoods....
>
> Augusts End Summer 1999, Sea Ranch, CALIFORNIA, USA
>
> Internationally recognized Artist Mattison Fitzgerald has been
> working on the Sonoma-Mendocino coast since "she was a kid! My
> first public exhibition was with 'Art in the Redwoods' when I was 16
> years old. I had to compete with the adults then. Now, Art in the
> Redwoods has a category for kids which is great." Since then,
>
> Mattisons career has taken her around California and now into
> national and international art arenas.
>
> Early this summer you can find Mattison "painting
> out" behind the Fitzgeralds' Sea Ranch home or tucked in behind the
> rocks with her pastels along the coast or participating in the 1999
> Studio Discovery Tour Labor Day Weekend in Sonoma and
> Mendocino Counties located 2 hours North of the Golden Gate
> Bridge on the California Coast.
>
> Mattison Fitzgerald is starting a new series of large paintings on
> redwoods trees this spring. She will finish the tree series just before
> the California Sonoma Mendocino Counties 1999 Studio Discovery
> Tour on Labor Day weekend September 4th and 5th and the
> weekend of September 11 - 12 hours 10 am - 5pm. You are welcome
> to stop by the Studio Discovery Tour either weekend and see what
> she is working on. Mattisons work is also represented by Studio
> One Gallery in Gualala among other galleries nationally and
> internationally.
>
> Fitzgeralds' sempervirens series about the trees is called 'Redwoods
> R 2 Rain forests'. Fitzgerald commented "The redwood paintings
> are dedicated to the people who have committed their lives to
> fighting for the preservation of Redwood Trees. Especially the
> young man David who was killed saving the trees for everyone".
>
> Fitzgerald hopes the paintings will be here for centuries to help raise
> the awareness of the finite resource we have in the Redwood
> Forests. Fitzgerald says "they are the rain forests of the northern
> hemisphere and you are responsible for taking care of them. It is
> important for Californians and everyone on the planet to stand up
> for managed care of these and other important resources."
>
> Mattison Fitzgerald has recently been included in the National
> Museum of Women in the Arts Archives in Washington D.C. She
> has also been included in Who's Who in America and recently Who's
> Who in the World and featured with Womens Caucus for the Arts
> Newsletter and the North Coast Artists Guild Newsletter. As well
> as received recognition from the National Association of American
> Penn Women and the Womens Fund of Silicon Valley and published
> Nationally with Ashai Art Communications, Tokyo Japan.
>
> Mattison said she "will donate a portion of the sales from these
> redwood paintings to help aid the activists in support of their voice
> in saving the environment." Mattison will with Rain Forest Action
> Network and other environmental organizations promote this
> effort and exhibit the paintings in San Francisco, San Jose and
> beyond in 2000.
>
> If you would like to find out more information on Mattisons
> Fitzgeralds artwork, 1999 Studio Discovery Tour
> Fitzgeralds website is http://www.rhinodev.com/M or contact
> mat...@netcom.com
>
> For more information or a map to the 1999 Studio Discovery Tour in
> Sonoma and Mendocino Counties in September contact
> Gualala Art Center, Gualala, Ca. For information on the Point
> Arena Art Center, Point Arena Ca.
>
> Art is in!
> We have a new 4 color brochure on the art if you would like one
> snailed to you request it.
J.
M.
>
> M. wrote:
> >
> > Great dialogue between two experienced articulate working artists.
> > I've copied it out, thanks.
> >
> > M.
> >
>
> It is copyrighted.
>
> Mattison Fitzgerald
> Artist
Fair use
and education purpose.
M.
~Artist~
>
> ~Artist~ wrote:
> >
> > M. wrote:
> > >
> > > Great dialogue between two experienced articulate working artists.
> > > I've copied it out, thanks.
> > >
> > > M.
> > >
> >
> > It is copyrighted.
> >
> > Mattison Fitzgerald
> > Artist
>
> and education purpose.
>
> M.
It is still copyrighted.
If you use anything from an artist you havbe to ask in formal setting
or you will be set up to be sued.
I did not recieve any requests to use my writings.
Rather rude and disempowering of the arts.
Waht are they teaching you in the school anyway?
Certainly not the Business of Art.
The only time schools can use works are when you are actually
attending that school. I can tell you I am not attending your school.
There is no release of copyrights on my writings.
Mattison Fitzgerald
Artist
http://www.rhiondev.com/M
M.
~Artist~ wrote:
>
> M. wrote:
> >
> > ~Artist~ wrote:
> > >
> > > M. wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Great dialogue between two experienced articulate working artists.
> > > > I've copied it out, thanks.
> > > >
> > > > M.
> > > >
> > >
> > > It is copyrighted.
> > >
> > > Mattison Fitzgerald
> > > Artist
> >
tomi...@hotmail.com
> > ~Artist~ wrote:
> If you use anything from an artist you havbe to ask in formal setting
> or you will be set up to be sued.
no, there isn't that kind of a law specialised for artists. maybe it is
a Usa thing that only works there (or for those having money to afford
expensive layers for making new laws or fake views.)
Everyone in the world is artist (whether there's education or not) and
the rules on internet are different on every country.
If you post text for public (and especially if you dont have (c) with
it (which do not mean much actually) everyone can borrow parts from it.
everyone.
~Artist~
>
> > > ~Artist~ wrote:
> > If you use anything from an artist you havbe to ask in formal setting
> > or you will be set up to be sued.
>
> no, there isn't that kind of a law specialised for artists. maybe it is
> a Usa thing that only works there (or for those having money to afford
> expensive layers for making new laws or fake views.)
> Everyone in the world is artist (whether there's education or not) and
> the rules on internet are different on every country.
> If you post text for public (and especially if you dont have (c) with
> it (which do not mean much actually) everyone can borrow parts from it.
> everyone.
>
What idiot told you that?
You best read up on copyright law.
Mattison
~Artist~
>
> Don't post then.
Grow up.
Respect establish norms.
You might need them to protect your work one day.
Mattison
>
> ~Artist~ wrote:
> >
> > M. wrote:
> > >
> > > ~Artist~ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > M. wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Great dialogue between two experienced articulate working artists.
> > > > > I've copied it out, thanks.
> > > > >
> > > > > M.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > It is copyrighted.
> > > >
> > > > Mattison Fitzgerald
> > > > Artist
> > >
> > > Fair use
> > > and education purpose.
> > >
> > > M.
> >
> > It is still copyrighted.
> >
> > If you use anything from an artist you havbe to ask in formal setting
> > or you will be set up to be sued.
> >
M.
>
> M. wrote:
> >
> > Don't post then.
>
> Grow up.
>
Larry's words were the good one's I was referring to.
~Artist~
Larry is a Whiner no wonder he is crying in the studio.
No pain no gain God or not.
Mattison
tomi...@hotmail.com
>
> You best read up on copyright law.
>
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
..there's something. so if i consider my postings as a performance, a
work of my art; replying my posts with borrowing my words can be sued?
lol :)
Dr. Lori Verderame
artwork deemed good?" Of course, we all know an auction record and sales
record is important but the manner in which a work of art speaks to someone,
the context in which it is derived, and its overall place in cultural and
art history make a piece good. At least that's my opinion...the people who
recognize these points will purchase and know why they've made a good
purchase of a good work of art. Just my opinion. Lori
--
Lori Verderame, Ph.D
Director, Masterpiece-Galleries
http://www.masterpiece-galleries.com
~Artist~ wrote in message <37BFA0...@att.net>...
Larry Seiler
recognize these points will purchase and know why they've made a good
purchase of a good work of art. Just my opinion. Lori
well...greetings to my friends on rec.arts.fine
Am yet making my move to upper northern woods of Wisconsin. Hopefully
we get the rental truck this next weekend. However, I'm up and online
in my classroom where I'm teaching art, and stepping off the mad track
of "having" to sell my paintings to once again enjoy freedom to paint
and to sell what I want! I'm into my third week, and enjoying being a
link to young people's educational art experience.
I mentioned it I believe quite sometime ago...but, I really think our
inclination toward introversion as artists...working in a closed studio
environment disconnects us from the world which we live and work in.
Such disconnection forces us to hire reps to motivate people to buy our
work.
I have been looking at it a bit like a musician (which some here know I
also am) in that the Rolling Stones would not be who they are today if
they simply had worked all these years in the studio and depended upon
record store outlets to sell their stuff.
They have to tour, do concerts, be exposed and bring their patrons into
the "experience" for which acquiring a CD initiates a sense of
"re-experiencing" the past again and again. Concerts sell the shirts,
the CD's....and make the band popular.
In hindsight...this is beginning to make some sense to me. I am finding
out now by painting plein landscapes....or at festivals, etc., that
people often are willing to buy a work nearly fresh off the easel. In
seeing some of the mystery of what makes a work happen, they are given a
connection...an experience to make it personal.
Our generation has a weak link in understanding aesthetics, genuis,
etc; and this makes the marketing necessary. Marketing which makes its
appeal on the raising of one's status quo by purchasing said work.
Or..of convincing one of collectibility and value.
However....witnessing the artist work transfers a near
spiritual/mystical "borrowed" insight of the artist to where the
patron/viewer nearly also "gets it!"
I am finding greater success for myself as an artist and more personal
satisfaction developing a progressive yet slow acknowledgement and
following of those wishing to maintain contact with me having had the
opportunity at least once to see me work. Now maybe I need to have
shirts/jerseys made, stickers, etc; like the bands! hahaha...
Larry
artist's web site- lse...@cwinc.net/larryseiler
WetCanvas- (shorter version of my work)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Gallery/S/Larry_Seiler/index.html
tomi...@hotmail.com
> I mentioned it I believe quite sometime ago...but, I really think our
> inclination toward introversion as artists...working in a closed
studio
> environment disconnects us from the world which we live and work in.
> Such disconnection forces us to hire reps to motivate people to buy
our
> work.
true. all new artists have to play with media to be seen; the more the
better for career whatever you do there :). looks like it covers a lot
of the meaning of "great" art nowadays. (or art that sells actually)
> I have been looking at it a bit like a musician (which some here know
I
> also am) in that the Rolling Stones would not be who they are today if
> they simply had worked all these years in the studio and depended upon
> record store outlets to sell their stuff.
> They have to tour, do concerts, be exposed and bring their patrons
into
> the "experience" for which acquiring a CD initiates a sense of
> "re-experiencing" the past again and again. Concerts sell the shirts,
> the CD's....and make the band popular.
they have to be in media everytime supporting yellow papers, sensation
stuffs etc. the more idiocy there's on air the better it is. .. and why
all celebrities are becoming singers nowadays? and mainstream folks buy
that crap =)
i think media & hype is no.1 in music industry nowadays; as world goes
more commercial day by day channels like MTV (which partly tells people
what to listen to) and "new type only hits" radiostations (like kiss fm
or Nrj) are killing the traditions of listening to music (and artists
too) limiting the music to only the biggest hits playing songs instead
of variety from full albums. help if your young, beautiful girl or boy,
and the audience is teenagers...
now we hear the same song million times killing the artists pretty soon.
maybe there wont be any "megastars" in the future like Madonna, michael
jackson, rollingstones etc. for me, i dont buy albums anymore; i'll
leech all kinds of stuff from net or listen to cathegorized net radios
etc.
> In hindsight...this is beginning to make some sense to me. I am
finding
> out now by painting plein landscapes....or at festivals, etc., that
> people often are willing to buy a work nearly fresh off the easel. In
> seeing some of the mystery of what makes a work happen, they are
given a
> connection...an experience to make it personal.
a perfect idea =) i never though that. it's cool as long as you dont
have to stand on drunks all the time :)
>
> Our generation has a weak link in understanding aesthetics, genuis,
> etc; and this makes the marketing necessary. Marketing which makes
its
> appeal on the raising of one's status quo by purchasing said work.
> Or..of convincing one of collectibility and value.
the more mainstream the more it sells.
> However....witnessing the artist work transfers a near
> spiritual/mystical "borrowed" insight of the artist to where the
> patron/viewer nearly also "gets it!"
true! i thought to buy a digital camera, and put it to my room to where
i paint to let people see how i paint. with putting the stuffs on wall
the gallery is open 24hours/ day =)
-tomi