Skill
William DeRaymond
>
> William DeRaymond writes:
> >To attempt
> >to create what is regarded as others as art is quite simply pandering. One
> >needs to be true to their own vision, regardless of whether others regard it
> >as art or not. Historically artists like Cezanne, Van Gogh, and Monet are
> >good examples of this.
> >MD> Are you suggesting that if I paint something that someone else likes an
artist
> is somehow dishonest?
WD - To me this response is ridiculous. How many times do I have to say no,
that is not what I am suggesting. I heard you say that The Artist's purpose
is to create what others will like and consider as art, as the artist's
primary purpose. The primary purpose of a true artist is to create what she
or he likes and considers to be art. The artist as authority, what a novel
concept.
As an artist you must not
> pander,
>
>MD- I wrote:
> >> Pander? Do you create artwork which people DON"T want? If you do I will
> >> remind you that this is a rare occurrence.
> >
> >WD- We are talking about basic motives and in the producing of art the basic
> >motive needs to be The expression of yourself as the priority not as some
> >incidental event.
> MD> I’m not interested in an artist’s priority. People judge work on the
basis of
> quality. The motive is of secondary interest. If an artist does fine work to
> match some rich ladies couch or to satisfy some cranky Pope, it is the quality
> of the work that counts.
WD-To me this example of motive (matching some rich ladies couch or
satisfying some cranky pope) doesn't begin to address how I used the word.
You are not talking about art, I am. My basic motive being the expression
of myself through the artform, which has nothing to do with matching some
rich ladies couch, etc. A real art appreciator will most certainly consider
the artist's personality as the most important part of the work. I'm of the
opinion that all fine work is based in this understanding. In fact to think
or feel otherwise is ridiculous. You miss the point of art entirely.
> >> You and lots of others consider art "expressing yourself."
> >> Why don’t you state exactly what the term "expressing yourself "means. I
> >> suspect that you will end up with lots of platitudes.
> WD> >The moment you touch your brush to the canvas you are expressing
yourself.
> >You express yourself in the choice of colors you use and your ability to
> >harmonize those tones, and what you actually say with regards to those
> >harmonies. You express yourself with regards to how you express the brush,
> >whether you understand the inherent psychological nuances of the brush. You
>
> >express yourself with regards to how you compose, your choice of motifs and
> >whether or not you are slavish with regards to copying or are concerned with
> >aessthetic issues that involve all of the above. I could go on, but I'm
> >stopping here. If you aren't clear on the enormous potential for self
> >expression in the above and the neccessity of the same you should find a
> >proper teacher and get to work.
> >MD> If you are expressing yourself the moment you start to the moment you
finish,
> then the use of art materials is by your definition expressing yourself. Fine,
> but your statement doesn’t contain any information.
WD-You have no real grounding in the artform you mean. Everything I mention
above is an infinite field of exploration and ecstasy. For you to say It is
saying nothing is just to reaffirm your foolishness.
>
> >> Exactly what it is that most art expresses is more often than not a matter
> of >>hazy conjecture.
>
> >You are just expressing your lack of knowledge here and all the conceptual
> >hang ups of your training and background. This is typical and widespread.
> >YOU are full of hazy conjecture. In this statement you say 'I don't know
> >shit, and no one else does or can know anything either.' Oh yeah, except we
> >sure can rely on the fact that skill is neccessary, Duh.
> >>MD> I’m referring to the term "expressing yourself." I’m not clear on what
it
> means and in reading your statement I certainly don’t think you are either.
>
WD-Well I feel that it is the truth that you are not clear on what it means,
but if you feel my statements lack the knowledge I am clear about, well
what can I say?
> >> Did a Dutch 17th century still life painter express himself? Vermeer,
> >> Canaletto, Norman Rockwell, Rothko, Matisse? If so how and where?
> WD> > Yes they all did in every work they did. Each one reveals the
consciousness
>
> >with which they work and their motivations.
>
> FINE TAKE A PARTICULAR WORK AND TELL ME WHAT EXACTLY VERMEER EXPRESSED ABOUT
> HIS CONSCIOUSNESS AND MOTIVATION. No one has achieved this as far as I know.
> What is known about Vermeer can fill about two pages. All the rest is vacuous
> conjecture.
Come on, It's is obvious he was more than a literal artist, he spoke an
aesthetic language that Rockwell never began to express. What was his
motivation - the expression of that same language for the joy he got out of
expressing himself with such clarity of genius. You think he painted
(primarily) to satisfy the small mind of this or that patron? His motivation
was the artform itself. He showed himself to be an aesthetic genius, how he
used color, his compositions. He imbues his work with his consciousness and
so we say Ahh! Vermeer. Not Ahhh! Mani Deli. There really is an aesthetic
language that is painting, that all true artist's use according to their own
personalities, ie. thought, feeling, intuition, intelligence.
>
> It is quite clear to me from
> >your comments all you see is some conceptual bullshit no matter what you look
>
> >at.
> MD> When I look at a painting I see exactly what you see. Our perceptions are
> different.
WD-I don't think we SEE the same thing. My path is to see what is.
> >> Art often expresses something but rarely oneself. Take religious art or
> >> portraiture, still life, landscape, pure abstraction or Egyptian funereal
> art
> >> and cubism. Rarely does any of this express anything much about the artist.
> >
> >These absolutely reveal the nature and psychology of the artist who did it.
> > It is impossible to hide who you are and what you know as an arist. You
> >either express your consciousness or lack thereof>.
>
> Psychology? What do you know about the psychology of an ancient Egyptian
> artist. Nothing?
WD-LOOK at the art and you might see something of the consciousness and
psychology of an Egyptian Artist. What else could you see? You are a riot.
I think it comes down to this Mani Deli, and that is you have some idea of
what skill means, but little of the meaning of art.
> >
> I consider your logic somewhat defective.How?
> >> Mani DeLi
> >> If people judged painting in terms of quality rather than by its signature
> the
> >> whole history of modern art would be quite different.What is quality to you?
--
William DeRaymond/Artist
WorldLightProductions
http://www.worldlightproductions.com/~draymond/
'The abstract nature of reality is the source of beauty.'- William
Joel Pedersen
>Mani Deli wrote:
>>
>> William DeRaymond writes:
>> >To attempt
>> >to create what is regarded as others as art is quite simply pandering. One
>> >needs to be true to their own vision, regardless of whether others regard it
>> >as art or not. Historically artists like Cezanne, Van Gogh, and Monet are
>> >good examples of this.
>> >MD> Are you suggesting that if I paint something that someone else likes an
>artist
>> is somehow dishonest?
>WD - To me this response is ridiculous. How many times do I have to say no,
>that is not what I am suggesting. I heard you say that The Artist's purpose
>is to create what others will like and consider as art, as the artist's
>primary purpose. The primary purpose of a true artist is to create what she
>or he likes and considers to be art. The artist as authority, what a novel
>concept.
William, Mani, there is an essay the Bertrand Russel wrote in 1950 called
'On Being Modern Minded.' It might be something that both of you would be
interested in reading. Either you can look it up, or get in contact with me
and I can scan it, OCR it, and sent it to you.
Joel Pedersen
4225 N 1st Ave #2018
Tucson, AZ 85719 USA
(520)292-8582
internet:spl...@rtd.com
http://www.rtd.com/~splash/galped.html