Of Being a Creative Artist...after graduation?
oza...@usa.com
continuing their work)with graduate degrees (MFA-etc.)in fine arts how
their careers have been after graduation...
Rare Bird
says...
>
>I would like to ask of career experiences of artists (who are
>continuing their work)with graduate degrees (MFA-etc.)in fine arts how
>their careers have been after graduation...
Like many people who have university degrees, many
artists end up working at other jobs in order to
be employed gainfully and feed themselves and family.
There have been follow-up studies done of MFA
graduates who were polled years after obtaining their
degrees, and the majority failed to pursue art as
a career, and those who did were usually teaching or
holding other art-related jobs that did not use
their creative abilities. And yes, I am one of the
majority of MFA graduates.
Mr Clarke
years ago.
I now play with bits n` bobs on my desk.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ashley Clarke
-------------------------------------------------------
<oza...@usa.com> wrote in message
news:e3ed5265.05040...@posting.google.com...
Andrew D
Bird) wrote:
Can these artists produce a desirable product or are they all so
"creative" that there is little chance of marketing their product?
It seems odd that lots of people with enough interest in art to pursue it
through years of college go on to do something other than art in order to
earn a living. Do colleges teach the principle that the artist is always
right and the marketplace always wrong (a common argument in this forum)
to the extent that in order to pass the course, you must forgo any real
chance of commercial success?
An awful lot of people with no college training make a living from art so
if the majority of fine arts graduates can't cope in the market place,
then the system is surely failing and those years are wasted. The scary
thing is that you say many of these failed artists are now teaching the
next generation. What do they teach their students about the chances of
actually pursuing art as a career?
--
Andy D.
Billy Bones
cultural practitioner as opposed to artist (more of a
jack-of-all-trades, master of fine art) seeing as I work in the arts in
varied capacity yet produce what is considered "art" occasionally as
part of a cultural project. The inconsistency in my "practice" is
important, yet runs the risk of appearing uncommitted to a single
genre/style/etc, therefore evades "career development" in the
traditional artist's sense. The shameless self-promotion of the
Artist-as-product was the main contributer to this decision and I now
happily see all products of activity as my work, be they articles,
lectures, exhibition organisation, hitherto unknown combinations of
food or cutting-edge artistic masterpieces.
Terry
I got my BFA and MFA at two Canadian Universities. Of all the courses I
took, not a single one of them offered practical instruction on making a
living as an artist. To be honest, I don't think many Prof.'s know very
much about the business side of Art. If I had to do it over, I would
choose to go to an Art College. The Alberta College of Art, for
instance, has some outstanding workshops that focus on portfolio
preparation, writing grant proposals, looking for venues to exhibit your
work, and finding a gallery to represent you.
Cheers,
Terry
Rare Bird
an...@elsewhere.com says...
>What do they teach their students about the chances of
>actually pursuing art as a career?
>
>--
>Andy D.
There is no "black or white" answer to your pondery.
Those who come out of college with a firm notion of
what they want from life are liable to succeed. Those
who think it's going to be given to them on a silver
platter are in for a huge shock of reality.
Having "been there, done that" I'd never advise
anyone to pursue degrees in art with the notion that
it is going to make one an accomplished, or even a
mediocre artist. Too often, I fear, an art education
is seen as an "easy way" to obtain a college degree
without any serious consideration given to what
one truly expects/wants/is willing to work hard for
to secure their future.
Rare Bird
>not a single one of them offered practical instruction on making a
>living as an artist.
The other side of the coin is, that even when such
courses ARE offered, the majority of students will
not sign up for them, preferring instead to take
yet another studio course. Most colleges "require"
all students to complete a core curriculum of
courses such as Soc. Science, Language, Math,
Science, History etc. Perhaps they should add
business courses to that core requirement!
Mani Deli
wrote:
Business or not most gifted art students can't learn their craft
because their teachers are ignorant failures who babble the
politically correct nonsense they learned from their failure teachers.
Besides this a lot of art students are party type culties hardly even
interested in art.
Want to get away from the indecipherable imbecilities and absurd
pretensions of the modern art establishment? Check out my web page
http://www3.sympatico.ca/manideli/
Rare Bird
says...
>Besides this a lot of art students are party type culties hardly even
>interested in art.
And Mani speaks from personal experience as
a student who failed to make the grade,
as he's reminded us many times before.
Mani Deli
wrote:
>In article <dnoe51hb3nfdso2ss...@4ax.com>, ma...@sympatico.ca
>says...
>
>>Besides this a lot of art students are party type culties hardly even
>>interested in art.
>
>And Mani speaks from personal experience
I do and have described my bimbo teachers here often. I also visit art
schools and see student work. The one nearby shows three your
illustration students who can't draw. As to the work of most others,
it's garbage. Most art schools teach a creed instead of a craft.
as
>a student who failed to make the grade,
>as he's reminded us many times before.
I made my living in art and am willing to show it. Lets see your work
and whether you failed to make the grade.
s_l_a...@hotmail.com
What galleries did you show in?
Are you willing to show your C.V. ?
s_l_a...@hotmail.com
ask them direct questions regarding their claims....
just look at Thur!
Billy Bones
> And Mani speaks from personal experience as
> a student who failed to make the grade,
> as he's reminded us many times before.
However mani has a point, a large part of arts courses are taken up by
"creative types" who want to express their inner me and refuse to
engage with the art establishment and contemporary issues in art in a
professional way. I don't know about you folks who live "across the
pond" but in the UK there are a number of organisations available for
graduates, post-graduates and even outsider artists who offer advice
and either free or cheap courses in professional development. There
are also grants and "support in kind" available, particularly useful
for artist whose work "defies" the commercial art market.
Billy Bones
seem to be obsessed with Dali, the least interesting and most self
obsessed of all the Surrealists... oh, I see...
Neil Maxwell
I'd answer, but the timer on the fryer is going off, and there's a big
line of people at the drive-up window...
--
Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer
Mani Deli
>Like the man said -- Mani is a failure with a big mouth. You notice he
>never responds to a request to provide specifics on his supposed career.
>thats' because he never had one.
Yep, I'm a failure. Bimbo White says so. Take a look at his work if
he's willing to show it. Hope he has a college art degree. I'll send
him my resume for $200. In fact you can see my opinion about art
degrees at http://www3.sympatico.ca/manideli/Works6.jpg I'm sure the
Bimbo can compare it to Dali.
And remember the more so-called artists who don't know their craft the
more work for those who do.
No skill no art.
Erik A. Mattila
Do you serve-up Rauschenbergers, Neil?
Erik
s_l_a...@hotmail.com
So the troll won't back up what he says.
What a surprise.
Billy Bones
Do you think, Mani, that skill refers only to technical craftsmanship?
I believe so. Depending of course on the specificities of the project,
it is not necessary to be proficient in all aspects of your "craft". I
doubt that you grind your own pigments to achieve your vibrant colours.
The "geniuses" of art history employed various methods of "cheating"
that would appall expert craftsmen such as your good self. "Skill" in
art can encompass areas above and beyond the ability to create a
convincing likeness of the English countryside, it can manifest itself
in aspects of cultural activity as diverse as the ability to rigorously
develop a concept, to market analysis and self promotion. By the
latter I'm not implying that one should make art for a market
(although, Mani, you may find a thriving market for your work amongst
the pre-16 teenager demographic) but that one should be aware of the
market and how to exploit it do deliver your message/product. One
can't be successful in a vacuum and understanding the art market is one
of the gravest omissions from most Art College curricula.
Mani Deli
>
>
>So the troll won't back up what he says.
>What a surprise.
...and where's your resume? Anything to show, lets see it.
My work backs me up. And while you're at it check out Bimbo White's
great success.
s_l_a...@hotmail.com
What a surprise...
s_l_a...@hotmail.com
ROTFL
Send me $500 and you got a deal.
Andrew D
Is it seen as an easy way because it is an easy way? If so, what does it
say about the course if "anyone" can easily pass even if they aren't
really interested in art but just want the piece of paper that comes with
turning up often enough?
--
Andy D.
Andrew D
Bones" <mark.jack...@gmail.com> wrote:
The grant system can compound the lack of professional direction in
college. Here in Oz, art grants are made available to people wanting to
pursue untested waters. So, if you want to set-up an art business
producing and selling oil painted landscapes, you will not receive grant
money provided by working taxpayers in oder to help you succeed and become
a taxpayer yourself. However, if you want to staple computer keyboards to
cows' backsides, walk them through a shopping mall and claim it to be an
artistic expression juxtaposing the rural against the urban and acting as
a metaphor for the modernisation sweeping the farming industry, you just
might get your hands on some of that money whether or not there is any
prospect that you will ever succeed (financially) as an artist.
--
Andy D.
Thur
"Biljo White" <biljo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:20050421102806.572$G...@newsreader.com...
> an...@elsewhere.com (Andrew D) wrote:
>
>
>>
>> The grant system can compound the lack of professional direction in
>> college. Here in Oz, art grants are made available to people wanting to
>> pursue untested waters. So, if you want to set-up an art business
>> producing and selling oil painted landscapes, you will not receive grant
>> money provided by working taxpayers in oder to help you succeed and
>> become a taxpayer yourself. However, if you want to staple computer
>> keyboards to cows' backsides, walk them through a shopping mall and claim
>> it to be an artistic expression juxtaposing the rural against the urban
>> and acting as a metaphor for the modernisation sweeping the farming
>> industry, you just might get your hands on some of that money whether or
>> not there is any prospect that you will ever succeed (financially) as an
>> artist.
>
> Doing what others have done before and ensuring an income is good. trying
> to do something new is bad, since it will surely be different from the
> tried and true and you will probably not get paid for it.
It befits the incompetant to continuously look for the new, rather
than stray into any area that might bear comparison with other work.
Ever wondered why this strain of contemporary work never seems
to require skill of any kind?
In fact it is a uniform component of Contemporary art.
Not that newness or uniqueness has anything wrong in itself.
Only that it requires talent and skill and for the most part maturity,
rather than youth and brashness, sincerity and depth, rather than
the froth of fad.
Unfortunately, the marketing of occasional work worthy of acclaim
just does not fit into a financial development plan for a gallery.
--
Thur
sculpt...@ethanham.com
> pursue untested waters. So, if you want to set-up an art business
> producing and selling oil painted landscapes, you will not receive
grant
> money
That actually makes a lot of sense to me... if someone wants to start
an art producing/selling small business, there is support for that kind
of endeavor--small business loans, business grants, tax breaks, etc.
It seems ok to me that art grants are largely directed to work that
otherwise wouldn't exist.
Andrew D
sculpt...@ethanham.com wrote:
Why wouldn't they otherwise exist? If there is some value in them, then
there should surely be individuals or businesses willing to sponsor the
venture (indeed, much contemporary art is financed this way and some
exhibitions are restricted solely to modern art). Of course, if there is
no value in them, such sponsorship might be unavailable - but the same
applies to artists pursuing more traditional routes.
If no private sponsorship can be found, why should the modern artist be
given free, government money that is not available to other artists?
There is surely nothing preventing the modern artist from applying for the
types of loans you mention above - except, perhaps, for an expectation of
financial failure. Would you also support governments handing out money to
people claiming to be doctors but having no useful medical skills or
aeronautical engineers, even if they can't make paper planes... or does
someone have to claim to be an "artist" before they should expect this
kind of taxpayer support?
--
Andy D.
sculpt...@ethanham.com
Banks generally don't give business loans out to ventures that aren't
intended to make a profit. Actually, at least here, the government
does give out money to people who want to be doctors, but have no
useful medical skills (it's called substidized student loans) :)
Anyway, here in the U.S. the federal government doesn't directly fund
individual artists... they used to via the National Endowment for the
Arts, but a stink was made when the money funded some artist (I forget
exactly who--maybe Mapplethorpe?). So now the money goes to art
organizations (who in turn may use the money for individual grants).
s_l_a...@hotmail.com
college. Here in Oz, art grants are made available to people wanting to
pursue untested waters. So, if you want to set-up an art business
producing and selling oil painted landscapes, you will not receive
grant
money provided by working taxpayers in oder to help you succeed and
become
a taxpayer yourself. However, if you want to staple computer keyboards
to
cows' backsides, walk them through a shopping mall and claim it to be
an
artistic expression juxtaposing the rural against the urban and acting
as
a metaphor for the modernisation sweeping the farming industry, you
just
might get your hands on some of that money whether or not there is any
prospect that you will ever succeed (financially) as an artist. "
"Ever wondered why this strain of contemporary work never seems
to require skill of any kind? In fact it is a uniform component of
Contemporary art. "
http://galeriedusseldorf.com.au/GDmenu.html
You two really ought to get out more.
s_l_a...@hotmail.com
engaging work than your own being produced in your own back yard. Stop
resorting to silly charicatures.
http://www.nga.gov.au/Home/Frameset.cfm?View=../Menus/art.htm
Andrew D
s_l_a...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Simply put there is more technically proficient and intellectually
> engaging work than your own being produced in your own back yard.
Absolutely. Mother Nature is well and truly at work in my back yard - and
I can't compete with her creative abilities.
--
Andy D.
willi...@netscape.net
lipstick.
Erik A. Mattila
> biljo...@yahoo.com(Biljo White) wrote:
>
>
>>How many of Mani's resumes could fit on the head of a pin?
>
>
> That's easy. Since there is no resume (size = 0), an infinite number.
Wait a minute, I remember learning in math class that if you divide
infinity by zero you got irrationality. Could this be?
Erik
Chris Brobeck
Dan Fox wrote:
> This is an example of the math concept of 'limits', which is the
basis of
> differential calculus -- which I'm sure Chris remembers far better
than I
> do.
>
Probably not, I've been into the turps all day for the first time in
quite awhile and I'm lucky to have recognized my name....But your
explanation was bang on.
Cheers;
Chris
Noumenon
> Clearly, then, being an artist is a job. financial success is the goal.
> Doing what others have done before and ensuring an income is good. trying
> to do something new is bad, since it will surely be different from the
> tried and true and you will probably not get paid for it.
1. Financial success is not always _the_ goal. There are other (and
sometimes more important) goals for artists.
2. _NEW_ has never implied _BETTER_. At some point new could and was
better,
but the closer to our time we look (along the line of degradation of
mankind
and decline of civilization), the less relation between _new_ and _good_
we see. Only were unsophisticated people and snotty teenagers (who don't
know
anything better) may think differently.
3. There is actually NOTHING NEW (under the sun), in general.
It's only a sweet delusion for the ignorant.
4. TRYING to do something _new_ is different, but that is another story.
5. In art it's practically impossible to create seriously something
_new_
without mastering the traditional.
6. Ways of beauty are limited and well-explored already and, therefore
are hard to find (new, that is), but ways of ugliness and stupidity are
virtually boundless - a large playfield for ambitious wannabies and lazy
bunglers.
Weaving the Conundrum
-=| NOUMENON |=-
s_l_a...@hotmail.com
know anything better) may think differently. "
Dear me, stereotyping those whose views may be different from yours is
hardly new at all.
Erik A. Mattila
using maths as a metaphor for....well, I'll leave it at that.
Erik