Vermilion
Marilyn Welch
> Of its vermilion pigment, the Sinopia brochure states:
>
> "Use only in oil and acrylic in order to avoid discoloration."
>
> Some reviewers of watercolor paints (Hilary Page and Michael Wilcox) claim
> that modern vermilion (mercuric sulfide, PR106) is unreliable in
> watercolor paints, since it tends to darken. I don't know why that should
> be the case if it is "pure" vermilion and if it holds up well in oil and
> acrylic media.
Would it be because of the gum arabic used to bind the watercolour
pigments?
Tim Simmons
"dkra" <dk...@mmi.ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:dkra-26080...@oav-ca3a-108.rasserver.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> I've heard that genuine vermilion (mercuric sulfide) was once widely used
> in medieval art. Works of medieval art with vermilion still remain bright,
> but supposedly "modern" vermilion will darken under exposure to
> heat/light. I'm trying to understand why there should be any difference
> between "modern" and "classic" vermilion.
>
> I visited a local pigment shop (Sinopia, in San Francisco) to look at
> their cinnabar and vermilion pigments. The cinnabar is more rust-colored
> (and more expensive), the vermilion is still pricey ($33 for 100g) but is
> the familiar bright red-orange color.
>
> Of its vermilion pigment, the Sinopia brochure states:
>
> "Use only in oil and acrylic in order to avoid discoloration."
>
> Some reviewers of watercolor paints (Hilary Page and Michael Wilcox) claim
> that modern vermilion (mercuric sulfide, PR106) is unreliable in
> watercolor paints, since it tends to darken. I don't know why that should
> be the case if it is "pure" vermilion and if it holds up well in oil and
> acrylic media.
>
> see for myself. The (discontinued) Rowney Artists Rowney Vermilion swatch,
> pasted to the windowpane several weeks ago, so far shows no change. I also
> have a tube of Blockx vermilion watercolor paint on order and it should
> arrive this week. I'll test that one too.
>
> -- dkra
>
Tim S.:
Speaking of vermilion, I am trying to mix that color using red and yellow
and am having no luck. I know what it needs to look like but for some
reason, it ends up leaning toward to pink side instead of a very bright
red-orange. I have a red canoe in setting sunlight so vermilion is a good
choice but I just don't have it in my acrylic paints.
I mixed napthol crimson and yellow, medium red and yellow, or orange and
just wasn't satisfied with any of it. Never seemed bright enough.
Is there a good red/yellow or red/orange that will give me what I want? Or,
do I need to buy this color?
Thanks,
Tim
Tim Simmons
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> In article <8aii7.6412$Ib.7...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Tim
> Simmons" <tim...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Speaking of vermilion, I am trying to mix that color using red and
yellow
> > and am having no luck. I know what it needs to look like but for some
> > reason, it ends up leaning toward to pink side instead of a very bright
> > red-orange. I have a red canoe in setting sunlight so vermilion is a
good
> > choice but I just don't have it in my acrylic paints.
> >
> > I mixed napthol crimson and yellow, medium red and yellow, or orange and
> > just wasn't satisfied with any of it. Never seemed bright enough.
> >
> > Is there a good red/yellow or red/orange that will give me what I want?
Or,
> > do I need to buy this color?
>
> range) approximates the true color; it's a blend of cadmium red (cadmium
> selenosulfide, PR108) and nickel titanate yellow (PY53).
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> -- dkra
>
Tim S.:
I have it in watercolor, just not in acrylic. I'll snoop around and see if
I can find it. Thanks.
Tim
Clara Knett
dk...@mmi.ix.netcom.com says...
>Some reviewers of watercolor paints (Hilary Page and Michael Wilcox) claim
>that modern vermilion (mercuric sulfide, PR106) is unreliable in
>watercolor paints, since it tends to darken. I don't know why that should
>be the case if it is "pure" vermilion and if it holds up well in oil and
>acrylic media.
It's called "oxidation." It's what happens to
all metals to one degree or another depending
on their innate resistance to oxidation. For
example, we all know what rust on unprotected
iron or steel surfaces looks like. Mercuric
sulfide is a metallurgical state of mercury
that has been exposed to sulfur. When left
exposed to oxygen (in the air) for long periods,
the sulfide gradually converts to oxide, which
will have a different color, just as a clean
piece of steel looks different than a rusted piece.
When bound up in either oil or acrylic MEDIUM,
the pigment is more protected from exposure
to the air. Watercolors don't have that protective
coating unless you spray coat a finished watercolor
with a varnish to isolate the pigment from the air.
Clara Knett
tim...@earthlink.net says...
>I have it in watercolor, just not in acrylic. I'll snoop around and see if
>I can find it. Thanks.
Notice that the following incorporate two "pigments"
that are derived from metallic substances, not from
dye bases. You've been trying to intermix dye-based
with pigment-based colors, and I think that is your
basic problem in arriving at the intermediate "vermilion"
that you're seeking.
Dale Ford
Tim Simmons wrote:
You can buy Vermilion any where. You won't have to snoop very far :-) Although I
am more of a Cadmium person myself.
Dale
Tim Simmons
"Clara Knett" <ckn...@noemailever.com> wrote in message
news:3b8a4...@oracle.zianet.com...
> In article <bTmi7.6771$434.7...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> tim...@earthlink.net says...
>
> >I have it in watercolor, just not in acrylic. I'll snoop around and see
if
> >I can find it. Thanks.
>
> Notice that the following incorporate two "pigments"
> that are derived from metallic substances, not from
> dye bases. You've been trying to intermix dye-based
> with pigment-based colors, and I think that is your
> basic problem in arriving at the intermediate "vermilion"
> that you're seeking.
>
Tim S.:
So, my acrylic paints are dye-based? I thought they had pigments in them.
Tim
Clara Knett
tim...@earthlink.net says...
>So, my acrylic paints are dye-based? I thought they had pigments in them.
>
>Tim
I have no idea. You would need to
investigate the manufacturer's specs
for yourself.
Let me elaborate a bit more. Pigments
can be either inorganic minerals like
lapis lazuli and other "earth" minerals.
Or they can be the latter-day equivalents
manufactured from various inorganic metals.
Metallic sulfides, hydrides, etc are not
stable and tend to convert to a more stable
state by 'oxidation.' This isn't "chemistry"
in the normal sense, but rather metallurgy,
another of the sciences.
In the former case, the earth minerals are
FOR THE MOST PART more stable than those
manufactured from metallic elements.
Then there are the dyes. Dyes are deposited
on inert substrates - filler materials if
you prefer - and are therefor much less
stable than the two categories of pigments.
Dyes are subject to light degradation whereas
pigments suffer from oxidation and air
pollutants.
Hope this helps.
Tim Simmons
> In article <qpzi7.8270$Ib.9...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> tim...@earthlink.net says...
>
>
> >So, my acrylic paints are dye-based? I thought they had pigments in
them.
> >
> >Tim
>
> I have no idea. You would need to
> investigate the manufacturer's specs
> for yourself.
Tim S.:
Clara, don't take this the wrong way, but I am afraid you have some kind of
discernment problem. The reason I think that is that every time you reply
to me, your answer doesn't match my question. This is maybe the third time
you've done this and this is no prob but I just don't really know how to
reply.
If you will reread the previous posts, you will see that dkra said that
Windsor Newton had a watercolor vermilion and then you said to ME:
****
Notice that the following incorporate two "pigments"
that are derived from metallic substances, not from
dye bases. ***You've been trying to intermix dye-based
with pigment-based colors,*** and I think that is your
basic problem in arriving at the intermediate "vermilion"
that you're seeking.
****
You said that I, Tim Simmons, have been trying to mix a dye-based paint with
a pigment-based paint and that is why I asked you if my acrylics were
dye-based and you said you have no idea!
Perhaps you are getting very confused while reading the many posts and are
mixing what dkra said with what I said. I have not been mixing watercolor
with acrylic. I am mixing acrylic with acrylic.
So, when you assert that I am definitely mixing dye with pigment, then claim
you don't know if my acrylics are dye-based, it's clear that you've slid
into a ditch along the way and it makes it a little time consuming for me to
try and make sense of your posts.
If you are offended by my observation, I am sorry and also - I might be
wrong? So, your answer seems to say that some acrylics are dye-based. Is
that true? I am no authority on any of this.
Tim
Dale Ford
I think what she is trying to get at is that your paints might not be so good
and that is why you are having trouble mixing them. Some cheaper paints and some
not so cheap, have a lot of fillers in them. (Kind of like a fast food
hamburger, not too sure what is all in there.) Pigments are very expensive after
all.
When you try and mix these colours together you can run into problems because of
these fillers. For example your problem were you just can't get the right
colour.
Now I am not a scientific expert on paint but the more pigment the better the
paint, the more expensive the paint, and the greater difference between price
for the various colours of paint in the same line. For example if your cadmium
red is the same brand and line as your burnt umber the red should be
significantly more, because the pigment costs significantly more. If these
colours are the same price or only a couple of bucks different then chances are
your paints are full of filler and may cause you some problems.
Dale
Tim Simmons
"Dale Ford" <bdf...@mb.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3B8B2423...@mb.sympatico.ca...
Tim S.:
Okay. I can buy that. So, maybe that is why I am having a hard time
getting a very bright-looking red-orange. I am using mostly cheaper
acrylics. I am getting very close but not there. I bought the cheaper
paint since I am not a professional and I am not financially independent. I
can't afford to pay $8 for a pinky-sized tube of paint. Perhaps when I'm
good and rich. heh
Thanks for the explanation.
Tim
Oh, I went to an art museum today in Memphis. Looked around for an hour and
saw a few really neat paintings. One guy... William Beaugerough or
something did one of a girl and it was just amazing. The skin was just too
smooth and it just smacked of talent. It was different seeing them large
instead of on the PC. The museum or someone had covered them with some
clear glossy finish. Maybe to protect and add to the deepness of color. I
am ignorant but is doing that just a necessary step to preserve them? It
looked great and the painting looked like it was done yesterday. But was
maybe 1600s? Not sure. Since it was the first one I saw, I thought it was
only a copy but then I noticed all the other ones were covered in a glossy
coating of something, too. They didn't have any of them roped off and you
could walk right up to them. I am guessing it's the glossy covering because
if they get touched a few times, it will just affect the outer coat and no
big deal to redo the coating in 20 years. One thing I noticed was that
these paintings (the portraits of 1700s) didn't have thick paint on them.
It was so thin that only the highlights and a very few other places showed
actual paint or a brush stroke. I was amazed.
Anyway, thanks.
Tim
Andrew D
Simmons" <tim...@earthlink.net> wrote:
+Okay. I can buy that. So, maybe that is why I am having a hard time
+getting a very bright-looking red-orange. I am using mostly cheaper
+acrylics. I am getting very close but not there. I bought the cheaper
+paint since I am not a professional and I am not financially independent. I
+can't afford to pay $8 for a pinky-sized tube of paint. Perhaps when I'm
+good and rich. heh
As a "general rule", it's difficult to *mix* a bright colour. When you mix
two colours together, you almost always lose some brilliance. If you want
a really bright violet, for example, you won't get it by trying to mix any
"blues" with any "reds" - you need to buy violet.
You may be surprised at the true value of higher-priced paints since a
small amount of paint often goes a very long way when mixed with other
colours. You will also be able to mix a far greater range of "bright"
colours with good quality, brightly-pigmented paints - and you will be
able to spend less time mixing and more time painting and get "good and
rich" that much sooner.
Andy D.
"I'm a great speller - but a hopless tpyist!"
Andrew D
Simmons" <tim...@earthlink.net> wrote:
+I can't afford to pay $8 for a pinky-sized tube of paint. Perhaps when I'm
+good and rich. heh
That's a bit like saying you'll start buying Lotto tickets when you start
winning.
;)
Dale Ford
Tim Simmons wrote:
Oh no I hope you are not talking about Mani's hero. We'll never hear the end of
it. :-) Just teasing.
The shiny coating is varnish. There was a time when all oil paintings were
varnished. Many people still do that.
If you want to learn how to paint with out brush strokes try to sign up for a
painting course that teaches traditional painting methods. It really isn't hard
just very time consuming in that the paintings you are describing some times
have upwards of 50 very very thin coats of paint layered over each other to give
that flawless look. Also since oil paintings take much longer to dry they can be
reworked many times. Too much to get into here.
As far as paint goes, I now use a pure pigments (not tubes for the most part)
and add my own medium. Very expensive at first but works out cheaper in the long
run. I also only buy very few pigments such as cadmium red and cadmium yellow,
raw umber....., just the real basics. I use them to create whatever colour I
want. No fillers.
Little tubes cost more money in the long run. It is usually cheaper to buy the
big tubes and usually if you work it out it is cheaper per oz to buy bulk.
But hey have fun painting. Artists always have to balance costs and materials.
You just have to recognize the limitations of what you are working with if you
can't afford to buy the better materials.. I just don't want to see you get
frustrated over something that may not be your fault.
Good luck
Dale
Tim Simmons
Tim S.:
Thanks. I will probably stay with cheapos until my income comes in. hehehe
I see now why my vermilion wasn't as bright since I started with regular
reds. I got close with lipstick red and Createx transparent orange. Man,
some of those old paintings I saw today had the most bright vermilion. It
was awesome compared to my lame attempt. At least I can tell the
difference. So, maybe I am getting better at seeing colors. I have fun
painting but it is also very frustrating because I have never had lessons
and know I'm just wasting time doing things backwards and reinventing wheels
but I still have fun doing it.
The Brooks Museum didn't have any of the really famous paintings but they
had a few I recognized. Can't remember names. Also, many didn't have
artist names just Italian school etc. Oh, saw a Georgia O'Keefe and Winslow
Homer. Small ones like 12" x 16" and maybe 16 x 20. I only stayed an hour
cuz they closed on me, dang it. but they gave me a get in free pass so I'll
go back someday and finish.
Tim
Dale Ford
Tim Simmons wrote:
Colour wheel :-)
>
>
> The Brooks Museum didn't have any of the really famous paintings but they
> had a few I recognized. Can't remember names. Also, many didn't have
> artist names just Italian school etc. Oh, saw a Georgia O'Keefe and Winslow
> Homer.
Those are pretty famous people any way. :-)
> Small ones like 12" x 16" and maybe 16 x 20. I only stayed an hour
> cuz they closed on me, dang it. but they gave me a get in free pass so I'll
> go back someday and finish.
Glad to see you are seeing the real stuff. It is a lot different experience then
viewing the reproductions. Also remember these were probably all oil paintings,
so you are working with a different medium.
Dale
Tim Simmons
Tim S.:
Yes but no Rembrandts, Picassos, Renoirs, Monets, Manets, Da Vincis, Dalis,
Goyas, Michaelangelos, Pollocks, Van Goghs, etc.
Tim
Jean Pule
tim...@earthlink.net says...
>So, your answer seems to say that some acrylics are dye-based. Is
>that true? I am no authority on any of this.
That's EXACTLY what I was saying.
Same thing applies to oil paints.
Sorry for trying to overdo the
help. Some people are apparently
incapable of understanding what I
write. I'll take responsibility for
my writing if you'll take responsibility
for your lack of reading skills.
Jean Pule
tim...@earthlink.net says...
>Okay. I can buy that. So, maybe that is why I am having a hard time
>getting a very bright-looking red-orange. I am using mostly cheaper
>acrylics. I am getting very close but not there. I bought the cheaper
>paint since I am not a professional and I am not financially independent. I
>can't afford to pay $8 for a pinky-sized tube of paint. Perhaps when I'm
>good and rich. heh
Your problem is one that every art teacher
has to put up with - students who handicap
themselves with cheap materials. I have
long tried to explain - often fruitlessly -
that it's better to have one good brush
and only a few basic high quality tubes of
color than it is to try and learn with
the cheapest materials you can buy. I
offer my students a limited palette of colors,
that if followed as I instruct, will let
them mix a full range of colors with only
the basics. But they have to be willing to
buy "professional" grade colors in order
to achieve this. Showing up for class with
"student grade" colors and then wondering
why they can't mix the colors really tries
my patience.
Joseph Bennett
Damn, you sound just like a teacher.
Thank heavens the adults in my life refused to let me study art as a youth.
It could have ruined me forever.
Regards,
Joe Bennett
"Jean Pule" <jp...@noemailever.com> wrote in message
news:3b8ce...@oracle.zianet.com...
Jean Pule
>
>I agree completely. Everyone who has taught art has had this problem. In
>addition to generally being hard to mix, a related problem is that cheap
>paints have less tinting strength (the ability to maintain hue when mixed
>with white) because of all the filler used.
>
>An excellent source of professional-grade paints, both acrylic and oil, is
>Utrecht (www.utrecht.com).
Coincidental to this discussion, a "Dick Blick"
catalog arrived in my mail today and they have
a very good intro to their "Gamblin" line of oil
paints with a description and illustrations of
the difference between Gamblin's line of
"professional" line and the cheaper line they
offer to those who insist on "economizing."
I would recommend that anyone who is having trouble
understanding what this conversation is all about
request the latest DICK BLICK catalog:
Tim Simmons
Tim S.:
I can see that. But I'm not taking a class. I am simply using paint that
was given to me when this lady died in a car accident. I would rather use
it and learn what I can than waste it by throwing it out. I know that you
don't need hundreds of colors and a limited palette allows a learner (like
me) to become familiar with the results but there is too much paint just to
throw away. So, I will use what I can and probably pay a small price in the
chroma department but I just can't chunk free paint! Sorry.
But if I were in your class, I'd show up with the brand and colors you
wanted!
Thanks,
Tim
Tim Simmons
Tim S.:
Now I AM confused. When did a person named Jean Pule ever reply to one of
my posts? I can't seem to find it.
Tim
Chris
Oh, Jax regularly changes his posting name, usually involving some silly pun -
like Clara Knett (from clara.net, the ISP), or Fawn Dew (fondue). There's sly
fellow doing the same thing occassionally here, but let us leaf that to you to
figure out...
Chris
Dale Ford
groups, controlled by one person.
Use up the paint you have. Enjoy the process. If colour is a problem limit your
palette. Just screw around with the colours and you will soon figure out how
they blend. Look at this as an exercise in developing skill not master pieces.
Go to the library is money is expensive and take out some book that explains
colour wheels and perspective, proportions, shading, whatever, basic exercises
and work on these. Since you are working with realism you definitely need to
develop these skills. Even the most expensive materials will not help you if
the basic knowledge of what to do isn't there. Art is a lot harder than it
looks. I spent 6 years as a student developing skill and talent. To just jump
in like your self and start painting takes guts, but if you try to develop some
basic skills (i.e. mixing paint) first you will have a lot more success.
Good luck
Dale
Dale Ford
Joseph Bennett wrote:
> Ms. Pule:
>
> Damn, you sound just like a teacher.
>
> Thank heavens the adults in my life refused to let me study art as a youth.
> It could have ruined me forever.
>
Hahahaha
:-)
Dale
Jean Pule
>like Clara Knett (from clara.net, the ISP)
Sorry Chris, no brass ring for you.
And I really really do play the "clarinet"
although not well, mind you...
Chris
Guess I blew that one :). I also admit it took me awhile to figure out your
current one, I kept thinking of "Jean" in it's french pronunciation...
Chris
Andrew D
<bro...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
[snip]
+Oh, Jax regularly changes his posting name, usually involving some silly pun -
+like Clara Knett (from clara.net, the ISP), or Fawn Dew (fondue). There's sly
+fellow doing the same thing occassionally here, but let us leaf that to you to
+figure out...
I've been known to post in other groups as "Keith Myarth" but few people
get it. :)
Tim Simmons
"Chris" <bro...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3B8D9B14...@ns.sympatico.ca...
Tim S.:
Ah. Okay. I only saw Clara and I assumed that was a person's real name
(logical but not always true). Well, that clears up the name-switch
mystery.
Thanks,
tim
Jean Pule
right@the_end.of.my_tether says...
>I've been known to post in other groups as "Keith Myarth" but few people
>get it. :)
A suggestion from 'the old pro.'
Kith Myath
Chris
Now you should also give him some help on the organization line too.
Chris (still kicking myath for not noticing Musical Names Inc.)
Tim Simmons
"dkra" <dk...@mmi.ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:dkra-30080...@oav-ca3a-89.rasserver.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> In article <Pkgj7.4998$aC1.4...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Tim
> Simmons" <tim...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > ... I am simply using paint that
> > was given to me when this lady died in a car accident. I would rather
use
> > it and learn what I can than waste it by throwing it out. I know that
you
> > don't need hundreds of colors and a limited palette allows a learner
(like
> > me) to become familiar with the results but there is too much paint just
to
> > throw away. So, I will use what I can and probably pay a small price in
the
> > chroma department but I just can't chunk free paint! Sorry.
>
>
> Tim,
>
> Could you please list the names of the colors you have in your current
> collection, plus their brand name (I think you mentioned Createx)?
>
Tim S.:
Actually, no. It would take an hour. I have a large box full of all types
of colors. A few dif brands, too. But all of the cheap kind. Craft-type
acrylics. You know, lipstick red, christmas green, etc. But my
watercolors are good!!! hehehehe
dkra:
> If the names are generic enough (pthalo, diarylide, etc.) this might prove
> to be an indication of their pigment content and thus a rough guideline
> for color mixing, but having information on the Color Index name of each
> (look closely at the label, you should see something such as PO 20, for
> example, for cadmium orange) would also be very helpful.
>
> I think if you are trying to mix a bright red-orange you'll have to mix a
> warm (orange) red with a warm (orange) yellow, for best results.
> Violet-based reds (which lean towards crimson) and yellows which tend
> towards green (such as lemon yellow) wouldn't make the best orange.
>
> -- dkra
Tim S.:
Okay. Thanks for the tip! That is, in essence, what I ended up doing. red
that leaned to a orange and orange.
Thanks,
Tim
Andrew D
Pule) wrote:
+In article <YdFi7.361$aC1....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
+tim...@earthlink.net says...
+
+>So, your answer seems to say that some acrylics are dye-based. Is
+>that true? I am no authority on any of this.
+
+That's EXACTLY what I was saying.
+Same thing applies to oil paints.
+Sorry for trying to overdo the
+help. Some people are apparently
+incapable of understanding what I
+write. I'll take responsibility for
+my writing if you'll take responsibility
+for your lack of reading skills.
What?
Andy.