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Mani Deli

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Aug 24, 2002, 6:07:41 PM8/24/02
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This is a good example of what jerks like Fox and Strickland call
"bitter" "bile." Notice how well these happy fellows draw.

Today’s average art student is still encouraged to attempt to draw the
live model without having been taught to draw the chair she is
sitting on. This leads to all those abominable miles of dirty paper in
art school newsprint pads.

It doesn't matter what the subject is. If you don't possess the
knowledge necessary to draw something to look realistic you probably
won't be able to draw what you wish whether it be real or fantasy. You
won't even be able to copy a photograph.

Those who can't draw are usually taught to repeat permutations of the
art school mantra, "Oh, I wanted it that way." Many do so for the rest
of there lives. That's fine but then they complain that no one
appreciates them and they can't sell their artwork they, unlike Happy
Strickland and Merry Fox become bitter and billious.

In the past drawing was taught in the same manner as music. One was
given information, practiced the principals and everyone learned to
draw to some degree. A few became even became exceptional.

Imagine if music were taught like drawing is today. The instructor
puts you in front of a piano and exclaims "play!" No instruction, no
scales, no nothing. Eureca, after a week you figured out how to play
"Jingle Bells" all on your own. The instructor now assures you that
you can play and that you might even be a potential genius. Next he
tells you to study John Cage. That is about how drawing is presently
taught.

The "art" instructor tells you to copy the egg or some blocks in front
of you. No instruction just "DRAW!" When finished you are considered
ready to tackle drawing the human figure. Next the instructor who
can't draw comes around and says something like, "the nose is off."

In fact any idiot can tell you that but like the instructor he can't
tell you how to make it look right. One needn't pay an
instructor for this unless you crave the Artspeak pep-talk which the
mere idiot can't provide.

Next all students are told to do abstractions of the figure and lots
of time is spent by the instructor on how to explain this to those who
fail to be impressed.

Did any of you "bitter bile infested" art students here experience
something similar?

For those who don't know their craft, self expression is self
delusion.

Tired of Modern Art? Check out my web page

http://www3.sympatico.ca/manideli/

Peter H.M. Brooks

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Aug 24, 2002, 6:10:30 PM8/24/02
to

"Mani Deli" <mani...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

> Strickland and Merry Fox become bitter and billious.
>

It's great how you, Mani, have so little bile and are so unbitter that you
never feel the need to impose your opinions on anybody. Your doctor must be
very pleased with you.


--
I am afraid that you have got no further in dissuading me from my
floccinaucinihilipilification of deconstruction, semiotics and
structuralism. If anything you have strengthened it.


Carol C.

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Aug 25, 2002, 11:49:08 PM8/25/02
to
Hello Everyone,
I am new to this list. I'm an artist
and art teacher but with a twist, I teach at the elementary school
level. That means that I deal with students from the age of 6-14 years
old. I found this list with a google search for art teachers. I'm
writing because I deeply believe that teaching a student to draw is
akin to teaching someone to read. Even if that skill is not highly
crafted, it is necessary to have some taste of drawing to do anything
in art well. I try very to get a lot of drawing projects accomplished
so that my students are familiar with the concepts involved.
Portraits, figures, landscapes, still lifes, basic shapes and forms,
shadows are all covered with all of the kids I deal with. In this way,
I've tried to deal with some of the issues covered here by starting
them early.

Thanks for reading......

artonio7

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Aug 26, 2002, 3:45:18 AM8/26/02
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"Carol C." <joyu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4a483721.02082...@posting.google.com...

Carol,
I for one applaud your efforts as well as your insight. The alphabet of
drawing is overlooked and neglected far too often in our educational system.
Keep the faith and keep the fire burning.

with warm regards,
Tony

http://artonio7.com


Fidel Faddle

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Aug 26, 2002, 10:05:46 AM8/26/02
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In article <4a483721.02082...@posting.google.com>,
joyu...@yahoo.com says...

>
>Hello Everyone,
> I am new to this list. I'm an artist
>and art teacher but with a twist, I teach at the elementary school
>level. That means that I deal with students from the age of 6-14 years
>old. I found this list with a google search for art teachers. I'm
>writing because I deeply believe that teaching a student to draw is
>akin to teaching someone to read.

You could be a university professor and
believe the same thing. At university level,
it's usual for students to be denied
access to painting, printmaking and other
upper-level courses until they've fulfilled
the prerequisites of freshmen-level basic
drawing and design classes.

Thomas Ziorjen

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Aug 30, 2002, 2:00:57 AM8/30/02
to
>
>
> It doesn't matter what the subject is. If you don't possess the
> knowledge necessary to draw something to look realistic you probably
> won't be able to draw what you wish whether it be real or fantasy. You
> won't even be able to copy a photograph.
>

Mani,

If you have the knowledge and the skills to draw realistically are you
*obliged* to draw realistically? Why? Just to prove over and over again
that you *can*?

Why not allow the subjective/expressive their way and leave literal
verisimilitude to the camera?

Thomas

online portfolio:
http://www.user.dccnet.com/thomas_ziorjen


Mani Deli

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Aug 30, 2002, 11:42:37 AM8/30/02
to

>> It doesn't matter what the subject is. If you don't possess the
>> knowledge necessary to draw something to look realistic you probably
>> won't be able to draw what you wish whether it be real or fantasy. You
>> won't even be able to copy a photograph.
>>

>Thomas Ziorjen wrote:
>Mani,
>
>If you have the knowledge and the skills to draw realistically are you
>*obliged* to draw realistically?

No one is obliged to do anything.

> Why? Just to prove over and over again
>that you *can*?
>

Why just prove over and over again
that you *can't*?

>Why not allow the subjective/expressive their way and leave literal
>verisimilitude to the camera?
>

Just name a few great master drawings that you would mistake for a
photograph. I asked this many times here and never got an answer.

Your schmiery figure drawings are neither expressive or any more
interesting than the usual art student horrors.

If you want to draw the model better than an art school hack it would
be wise to first learn how to draw the chair she is sitting on.

The more artists who don't know their craft the more work for those
who do.
...no skill no art!

Lauri Levanto

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Aug 31, 2002, 2:12:50 AM8/31/02
to

Mani Deli wrote:

> Just name a few great master drawings that you would mistake for a
> photograph. I asked this many times here and never got an answer.
>

Not so long ago John Ng told that he has some copies of the GREAT B
in his office cubicle, and workmates wonder who has taken those photos

- lauri

Carol C.

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Aug 31, 2002, 2:46:55 AM8/31/02
to
Mani Deli <ma...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<on3vmuo5mlq9q9qvu...@4ax.com>...

> >> It doesn't matter what the subject is. If you don't possess the
> >> knowledge necessary to draw something to look realistic you probably
> >> won't be able to draw what you wish whether it be real or fantasy.
>
> >Thomas Ziorjen wrote:
> >Mani,
> >
> >If you have the knowledge and the skills to draw realistically are you
> >*obliged* to draw realistically?

Hi,
I have just finished the first week of attending meetings with
just the teachers. We are going over the specifics in Language Arts
and Math.
In both cases, students are asked to use art to demonstrate the
understanding of concepts involved with both of these essential
subjects.
We are finding out more and more that "DRAWING" is a skill that can
not be avoided, to not teach it and learn it well will leave a major
deficit within one's education. Needless to say, my committment to
drawing is stronger than ever.
......Carol

Thomas Ziorjen

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Aug 31, 2002, 2:10:14 PM8/31/02
to
>
>
> >Why not allow the subjective/expressive their way and leave literal
> >verisimilitude to the camera?
> >
> Just name a few great master drawings that you would mistake for a
> photograph. I asked this many times here and never got an answer.

I never said master drawings looked like photos. There are other aspects of
representaion that drawing can be used to explore.

>
>
> Your schmiery figure drawings are neither expressive or any more
> interesting than the usual art student horrors.

You are narrow-minded, rude and wrong.

Thomas Ziorjen

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Aug 31, 2002, 2:13:02 PM8/31/02
to

> > >If you have the knowledge and the skills to draw realistically are you
> > >*obliged* to draw realistically?
>
> Hi,
> I have just finished the first week of attending meetings with
> just the teachers. We are going over the specifics in Language Arts
> and Math.
> In both cases, students are asked to use art to demonstrate the
> understanding of concepts involved with both of these essential
> subjects.
> We are finding out more and more that "DRAWING" is a skill that can
> not be avoided, to not teach it and learn it well will leave a major
> deficit within one's education. Needless to say, my committment to
> drawing is stronger than ever.
> ......Carol

I didn't SAY learning to draw was unimportant! I *teach* drawing!! Re-read my post.

Mani Deli

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Aug 31, 2002, 4:42:01 PM8/31/02
to
Thomas Ziorjen wrote:

>I didn't SAY learning to draw was unimportant! I *teach* drawing!! Re-read my post.
>

Take a look at his drawing ( online portfolio
Http://www.user.dccnet.com/thomas_ziorjen:)
and you will see why students have good reason to complain about
drawing teachers.

I wrote:
>>Your schmiery figure drawings are neither expressive or any more interesting than the usual art student horrors.

>>If you want to draw the model better than an art school hack it would be wise to first learn how to draw the chair she is sitting on.

>You are narrow-minded, rude and wrong.

Whether I'm wrong or not is for others to decide, As to rude, you
asked for opinions and I said what I think. I would add that anyone
who takes lessons from someone who draws as badly as you should be
rude about the matter.

Thomas Ziorjen

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Sep 2, 2002, 7:45:33 PM9/2/02
to
Mani Deli wrote:

> Thomas Ziorjen wrote:
>
> >I didn't SAY learning to draw was unimportant! I *teach* drawing!! Re-read my post.
> >
> Take a look at his drawing

> http://www.user.dccnet.com/thomas_ziorjen


> and you will see why students have good reason to complain about
> drawing teachers.

I've had no complaints.

>
>
> I wrote:
> >>Your schmiery figure drawings are neither expressive or any more interesting than the usual art student horrors.
>
> >>If you want to draw the model better than an art school hack it would be wise to first learn how to draw the chair she is sitting on.
>
> >You are narrow-minded, rude and wrong.
>
> Whether I'm wrong or not is for others to decide,

So far you're the only one with anything negative to say. And frankly, I'm not surprised.


> As to rude, you
> asked for opinions and I said what I think. I would add that anyone
> who takes lessons from someone who draws as badly as you should be
> rude about the matter.

I don't remember ever having you in one of my classes Mani. Thank goodness.

Mr. Tudball

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Sep 2, 2002, 9:42:41 PM9/2/02
to
Thomas Ziorjen, your life drawings are by far the best I've seen from
anyone in this group.
You understand what makes a fine masterly drawing.
I, personally, am not fond of the expressive brushwork in your
paintings and would love to see just drawing after drawing after
drawing.
I am interested in purchasing a pile of your drawings if you are
willing to part with 10 or so of them and don't try to gouge me.
Contact me by email to work out arrangements.

Mani deli, you constantly spout such opinionated drivel that I
decided to check out your website. Because of your views, I figured that
the art would be impressive in one way or another. If nothing else, I
assumed I would find technical innovations.
I was impressed with your work because of it's incredible mediocrity.
There is an enormous difference in rendering and drawing that you may
never understand. I find it hard to believe that you actually sell that
hacky crap, but there is a market for just about anything these days. Be
that as it may, I did enjoy the title of Middle Yeast Uprising.
There are many fine examples of drawing At Mr. Ziorjen's website.
Thank you for providing the link.

-j

Thomas Ziorjen

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Sep 3, 2002, 4:33:03 PM9/3/02
to
"Mr. Tudball" wrote:

Thank you so much for the kind words about my work, and for putting Mani in
his place. I look forward to being in touch with you via email.

Carol C.

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Sep 9, 2002, 9:46:55 PM9/9/02
to
Hi Everyone,
I would like to politely take the posting
back to discourse on drawing because I am seeking advise. What
concepts to you wish you could have learned when you were younger ( in
grade school)? I have my notions which I will post later but I would
appreciate ideas.
Personally, I wished that I could have taken
anatomy classes for artists. My undergrad curriculum had no place for
it and I feel the void in my work. After I get the latest round of
classes done for renewal of my teaching liscence, I'm going to attempt
to take care of it.

......Carol

Mani Deli

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Sep 9, 2002, 11:28:20 PM9/9/02
to

and I repeat:

Your schmiery figure drawings are neither expressive or any more

interesting than the usual art student horrors. Check them out.

If you want to draw the model better than an art school hack it would
be wise to first learn how to draw the chair she is sitting on.

Mani Deli

unread,
Sep 11, 2002, 12:49:22 PM9/11/02
to
On 9 Sep 2002 18:46:55 -0700, joyu...@yahoo.com (Carol C.) wrote:

>Hi Everyone,
> I would like to politely take the posting
>back to discourse on drawing because I am seeking advise. What
>concepts to you wish you could have learned when you were younger ( in
>grade school)? I have my notions which I will post later but I would
>appreciate ideas.


Without going into detail I suggest you go to the library and find out
what was taught to children in the past. I have researched 19th
century art school work and found most learned to draw reasonably
well. The books will show why this was so.

Carol C.

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Sep 13, 2002, 10:11:21 PM9/13/02
to
Mani Deli <ma...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<6qsunukfcnv24t416...@4ax.com>...

> Without going into detail I suggest you go to the library and find out
> what was taught to children in the past.

Gee, Mani
I was interested in your personal views as well as the opinions of
other people. Curriculum is not static, it changes with time and
culture. If it didn't we'd all might be drawing as the Egyptians did
with their stationery poses.
Perspectives change as art history has shown us...that much is in the
library. But what isn't in there is your opinion of HOW specifically
the curriculum should change.
........Carol

Carol C.

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Sep 13, 2002, 10:26:56 PM9/13/02
to
joyu...@yahoo.com (Carol C.) wrote in message news:<4a483721.0209...@posting.google.com>...

> Hi Everyone,
> I would like to politely take the posting
> back to discourse on drawing because I am seeking advise. What
> concepts to you wish you could have learned when you were younger ( in
> grade school)? I have my notions which I will post .

Since I did not get any responses to my search for the opinions of
others, let me begin with my own thoughts. I work with children in
elementary school. The ages range from 8 to 14 years old. I try to
teach some basics in design elements. With shape/form, I also but in
shadow and light as well as simple horizontal perspective, one point
and two point. My students need to know how to identify cubes,
cylinders, half circles, rectangular cubes and draw them in space. I
show the combining of forms to create objects. I touch on proportions
of the body and with portraiture. Cartooning grabs their attention but
many kids are utterly fascinated with the muscles on super heroes
which unhappidly I can only barely touch.
Some students are attracted to art and practice a lot. Some would
rather take extra laps in gym class because they don't have the fine
motor coordination.
There is a man who has a drawing class on PBS for children. His first
name is Mark and his last name escapes me for the moment. You would be
sincerely surprised at his simple methods because he does get very
good results. I only know of his work through his books.
Well that's it for the present.
........Carol

Mani Deli

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Sep 14, 2002, 11:22:57 AM9/14/02
to

...no skill no art!

Mani Deli

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Sep 14, 2002, 11:31:42 AM9/14/02
to
On 13 Sep 2002 19:26:56 -0700, joyu...@yahoo.com (Carol C.) wrote:

I gave my opinion which it seems didn't satisfy you. However, the
matters you mention bellow would be in line with what I suggested.


> I work with children in
>elementary school. The ages range from 8 to 14 years old. I try to
>teach some basics in design elements. With shape/form, I also but in
>shadow and light as well as simple horizontal perspective, one point
>and two point. My students need to know how to identify cubes,
>cylinders, half circles, rectangular cubes and draw them in space. I
>show the combining of forms to create objects. I touch on proportions
>of the body and with portraiture. Cartooning grabs their attention but
>many kids are utterly fascinated with the muscles on super heroes
>which unhappidly I can only barely touch.

Get a copy of 'How to draw comics the Marvel way" and let them look at
it.

>Some students are attracted to art and practice a lot. Some would
>rather take extra laps in gym class because they don't have the fine
>motor coordination.

Some artists can't get it through their heads that lots if not most
people are more interested in other thing..

Mani Deli

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Sep 14, 2002, 11:50:29 AM9/14/02
to
On 13 Sep 2002 19:11:21 -0700, joyu...@yahoo.com (Carol C.) wrote:

>Mani Deli <ma...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<6qsunukfcnv24t416...@4ax.com>...
>
>> Without going into detail I suggest you go to the library and find out
>> what was taught to children in the past.
>
>Gee, Mani
> I was interested in your personal views as well as the opinions of
>other people. Curriculum is not static, it changes with time and
>culture. If it didn't we'd all might be drawing as the Egyptians did
>with their stationery poses.

The basics of curriculum are an accumulation of the basic knowledge of
the past. We all learn the arithmetic and geometry of the past before
we go into higher mathematics. We can go beyond the Egyptians because
we have accumulated additional knowledge. However it is my opinion
that if you study art as it is taught today you will never even get
close to a static pose.

>Perspectives change as art history has shown us...that much is in the
>library. But what isn't in there is your opinion of HOW specifically
>the curriculum should change.
> ........Carol

What changes in art are the approaches to technique and subject
matter. We all learn handwriting in approximately the same way yet
everyone's handwriting is different. One has to learn the basics
before he can advance. If you teach what you claim in your other
message you are teaching the basics whether or are aware of the fact
or not.

Carol C.

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Sep 14, 2002, 7:07:27 PM9/14/02
to
Mani Deli wrote
>
> Without going into detail I suggest you go to the library and find out
> what was taught to children in the past. I have researched 19th
> century art school work and found most learned to draw reasonably
> well. The books will show why this was so.

Mani,
I was asking for specific details and I got none, sad to
say. Because I do agree with you that drawing is important. This is
what I've been doing.......... I have been using the book , "How to
Draw Comics The Marvel Way" in my classes since 1978.I am on my third
copy since I've worn out the previous ones. I also own a copy of the
video of the same book. Last school year my students from grades 2-8
worked on sketch books. In them they made pages where they drew
illustrations for design elements, and design principles. I've taught
about the concept of overlapping and the color changes of atmospheric
perspective. I have over the years taken my students outside to sit in
front of houses for cityscapes and on riverbanks. They then brought
the sketches inside to use for paintings. Every kid is introduced to
the words, "portrait", "landscape" and "still life".
And all of this is in elementary school in a situation
where I did not have an art room to work from and only 30 hours for
the class in the whole school year. In addition, two of my former
students are now professionals in the art field; one is an art teacher
and another is an architect. So Mani, from this background I still ask
for the opinions of other artists because it still isn't enough. It
needs to get better, something that I think we both can agree. So
again I ask you but let me make the parameters more narrow, " what
skills and/or concepts do you think that is lacking in my visual arts
curriculum?"
...........Carol

Carol C.

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Sep 14, 2002, 10:22:47 PM9/14/02
to
Mani Deli wrote:
> I gave my opinion which it seems didn't satisfy you.
> Some artists can't get it through their heads that lots if not most
> people are more interested in other thing.

Dear Mani,
I was asking for everyone on the list to give me
a specific item in reference to drawing that they considered
important for kids to be shown. In my post I spoke about a drawing
book created by a man whose first name is "Mark". I have the book in
front of me, it's called 'Mark Kistler's Draw Squad". Mark seems to
have had a program on some of the PBS affliates across the country. In
his method, he uses major art fundamentals in small doses to teach
children as well as adults how to draw. Here are some of his key
words; foreshortening, shading, surface, size, contour lines,
overlapping, density, shadows. He has created with the contributions
of art teachers thirty lessons that kids can do every day.
With practice, kids are putting them to great use.
Just wanted you to know that there are people out
there who believe in the value of drawing and who are doing something
about it.
.........Carol

Margie Nall

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Sep 15, 2002, 10:44:56 AM9/15/02
to
In article <4a483721.02091...@posting.google.com>,
joyu...@yahoo.com says...

> Just wanted you to know that there are people out
> there who believe in the value of drawing and who are doing something
>about it.

I attended one of the largest public universities
in the USA. There is a full-blown College of Fine
Art. In that college there are numerous degree plans.
One such plan leads to a Master of Arts in Art Education.
The art education classes are geared specifically
to teaching prospective teachers how to teach art.

I mention the above because you may wish to look into
similar programs available in your area. Find out what
it is they teach to those prospective teachers in
regards to subject matter, etc. What text books do
they recommend. What teaching aids are promoted, etc.

Margie Nall

unread,
Sep 15, 2002, 11:12:52 AM9/15/02
to

>So


>again I ask you but let me make the parameters more narrow, " what
>skills and/or concepts do you think that is lacking in my visual arts
>curriculum?"
> ...........Carol

Reference: http://www.utexas.edu/cofa/a_ah/aca/vasdiv.html

Individuals who pursue visual art studies/art education (VAS/AED) degree
programs value the presentation and practice of art for students in public
settings. Art educators believe that art is an essential component of all
societies and that learning about the world is not complete without knowledge
of art’s history, purpose, function, and techniques. Furthermore, art educators
value art as an expressive medium for each student at each grade level through
adult.

Each of the six faculty members in the Visual Art Studies/Art Education
Division teach courses that prepare pre-service teachers for school and
community-based settings. Furthermore, each faculty member is concerned with a
unique aspect of the art education process. Preparation of art teachers
includes an understanding of art education history, philosophy, student
development, teaching strategies, standards, objectives, and evaluation
procedures. Field observation and practical experience is a part of several
required classes.

The visual art studies faculty members at The University of Texas at Austin are
committed to the preparation of outstanding art educators for future
generations of students.


Mani Deli

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Sep 15, 2002, 3:14:31 PM9/15/02
to
On 14 Sep 2002 16:07:27 -0700, joyu...@yahoo.com (Carol C.) wrote:

>Mani Deli wrote
>>
>> Without going into detail I suggest you go to the library and find out
>> what was taught to children in the past. I have researched 19th
>> century art school work and found most learned to draw reasonably
>> well. The books will show why this was so.

First let me explain why I wrote the above. I had the good fortune to
have had an excellent teacher in art school who trained many important
illustrators and artists. He taught some rote and technique, Many of
his students were accomplished and that to was a great help.

However, living in NYC and exposed to the finest artwork in the best
museums I could compare and tell how much I was missing. The artwork I
particularly admired was Flemish art and Dutch still life painting. I
also saw many original Dali's which had a similar technique.

I lacked the talent of the better students and I knew that my drawing
was weak. I was familiar with art school products of the past and was
convinced that students then learned things that I wasn't taught.
This led me to decide to research what it was that those in the past
learned. I was able to find books going back to the 16th century.
My search revealed what was missing.

The keys were geometry and then the basics of what is today called
mechanical drawing, followed by architectural drawing (plan and
elevations in detail with the application of light and shade) Check
out Durer's book on drawing. (I'm not referring on his book on how to
draw the figure.)

Most students at one point learned to draw five orders of
architecture. This taught proportion, how to draw curves and light and
shade. From this they learned to draw this in perspective. All this
culminated in a detailed study of perspective. As these studies
proceeded, students drew still life, buildings, the model and how to
compose these into complex works.

Much of this was taught in ordinary schools not art schools. In fact
the basics of sound drawing was taught in most high schools up until
the late 1940's.

Those who aimed at a profession in art studied with professionals and
later became assistants etc. They made copies of paintings and studied
what was considered the best.

This was much like music is taught today, which proceeds from rote to
master class. There is nothing secret about it. It is available to
anyone who takes the trouble to do a bit of research.

I mentioned a few books that still contain a lot of this information
today in my former message.

>Mani,
> I was asking for specific details and I got none, sad to
>say. Because I do agree with you that drawing is important. This is
>what I've been doing.......... I have been using the book , "How to
>Draw Comics The Marvel Way" in my classes since 1978.I am on my third
>copy since I've worn out the previous ones. I also own a copy of the
>video of the same book.

Cartooning is the best way to learn an introduction to the basics and
there are many fine books on the subject.

> Last school year my students from grades 2-8
>worked on sketch books. In them they made pages where they drew
>illustrations for design elements, and design principles. I've taught
>about the concept of overlapping and the color changes of atmospheric
>perspective. I have over the years taken my students outside to sit in
>front of houses for cityscapes and on riverbanks. They then brought
>the sketches inside to use for paintings. Every kid is introduced to
>the words, "portrait", "landscape" and "still life".


> And all of this is in elementary school in a situation
>where I did not have an art room to work from and only 30 hours for
>the class in the whole school year. In addition, two of my former
>students are now professionals in the art field; one is an art teacher
>and another is an architect. So Mani, from this background I still ask
>for the opinions of other artists because it still isn't enough. It
>needs to get better, something that I think we both can agree. So
>again I ask you but let me make the parameters more narrow, " what
>skills and/or concepts do you think that is lacking in my visual arts
>curriculum?"

In terms of the words you use I would say none. But I would have to
base a real opinion on a view of the results. Remember universities
have courses labeled drawing. Nice title but I have little respect for
the results, as my messages indicate..

I'm not a teacher and can only give a personal opinion as to what the
keys are to learning the basics. I believe that an ability to
accurately render any subject is the key to all the doors leading to
fine artwork. The foundations for this are at base learning to do what
today is called (in my opinion the equivalent to the scales in music)
mechanical drawing. An artist should learn to do this freehand. Most
any book on the subject is adequate.

Mechanical drawing really covers the basics of the subjects you
mention in great theoretical detail . The aim is to have the ability
to draw from both the real object and the object from memory and
convay a sense of the round. Mechanical drawing only really shows how
to draw the simplest objects but a thourough knowledge is necessary in
order to handle artistic complexity.

Now I'm not suggesting you go into that degree of detail for the
younger set. But the principals of drawing three dimensional objects
in space are hinted at in cartooning and drawing simple objects in
outline. This is the best way to start. These subjects hit at a sense
of proportions, rendering textures, composing objects, how to simplify
complexity and how to do all this in an orderly clean way.

So I would summarize by saying that there is a way for young people
which should lead those more interested to learn the subject into
greater detail. While the greatest detail requires just like in music
requires the help of a master. Unfortunatly this is not easy to find
in teaching today.

Mani Deli

unread,
Sep 15, 2002, 3:14:46 PM9/15/02
to
On 14 Sep 2002 19:22:47 -0700, joyu...@yahoo.com (Carol C.) wrote:

> Just wanted you to know that there are people out
> there who believe in the value of drawing and who are doing something
>about it.

I have no doubts about this. As I said there is as much fine art
produced today as ever, Those who produce it must have learned their
skills somewhere.

Lauri Levanto

unread,
Sep 16, 2002, 3:18:51 AM9/16/02
to
Thanks Mani,
this is the best piece of text I have seen from you.
-lauri

Mani Deli wrote:

> ...

The rest is snipped for brevity, read the original


keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com

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Sep 18, 2002, 9:33:39 PM9/18/02
to
Three dimensional graphic animators are the last users of traditional form
drawing secrets. Fine art is a form of pantomime consisting of the essence
and the illusion - not the illusion of absolute realism (the type where the
painting of a cow would tempt a bull) - but the illusion of life that
animistically touches the viewers imagination.

I realise that this view is not the prevalent view in this group.

keith

Carol C. <joyu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4a483721.02091...@posting.google.com...

Andrew D

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Sep 18, 2002, 10:54:57 PM9/18/02
to
In article <TP9i9.88771$561....@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
"keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com" <scot...@rogers.com> wrote:

+Three dimensional graphic animators are the last users of traditional form
+drawing secrets. Fine art is a form of pantomime consisting of the essence
+and the illusion - not the illusion of absolute realism (the type where the
+painting of a cow would tempt a bull) - but the illusion of life that
+animistically touches the viewers imagination.

And this absolute definition comes from where exactly?

Andy D.

"I'm a great speller - but a hopless tpyist!"

Andrew D

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Sep 18, 2002, 11:31:46 PM9/18/02
to
In article <TP9i9.88771$561....@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
"keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com" <scot...@rogers.com> wrote:

+Three dimensional graphic animators are the last users of traditional form
+drawing secrets. Fine art is a form of pantomime consisting of the essence
+and the illusion - not the illusion of absolute realism (the type where the
+painting of a cow would tempt a bull) - but the illusion of life that
+animistically touches the viewers imagination.

What he's *trying* to say Carol is that your students should be allowed to
instictively juxtapose colour fields in an ephemeral manner conducive to
enabling the viewer to interact and investigate and to be at one with the
textural musings that dissect the canvas through the use of lines that
dance in a poetic manner and which ultimately, concisely illustrate the
fundamental act of creation itself and which are not in any way that are
not restricted by the false reality that we learn to perceive as we become
adults.

Teach your students not to look outside for inspiration but to explore the
self and to paint from within. Great art is all about the spontaneous,
visible outpouring of internalised emotion and seeing the essence of the
world's reality as it really is rather than the absolute illusion that
less educated, less intellectual people mistakenly label reality. By
letting your students explore their own reality they are more likely to
produce imaginative works that not only explore the two-dimensional
surface on which they reside but which also genuinely exploit the third
dimension by quite literally inhabiting the space between the viewer and
the canvas itself. If they feel too constrained by the artificial
boundaries imposed by the physical edges of their working surface then for
God's sake, buy them bigger canvases!

Don't paint a cow that would tempt a bull. Scrawl some purple paint across
a LARGE canvas then call it a cow... and tempt an art critic! That's fine
art!

Frankly Carol, if your students are happy and progressing and you're happy
with what they're producing, then you don't need much advice from this
group. It sounds to me like they're doing just fine.

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