surrealistic music?
Michael Zheng
ignorance)? It there is, could someone point me to some?
-------
Michael Zheng
Integrated Systems, Inc. Email: m...@isi.com
3260 Jay Street Phone: (408)980-1500x517
Santa Clara, CA 95054 Best quote: none
Michael Seidl
>Is there such a thing as surrealistic music (forgive me for my
>ignorance)? It there is, could someone point me to some?
>
ago I asked about the same one, and no one in the class (including the
professor) had any idea. I did a little digging then, and here's what
I came up with:
There is one, much commented upon piece, which might qualify as
surrealistic music, a ballet called _Parade_, directed by the famous
Russian Sergey Pavlovich Diaghilev in 1917 (technically before
the 1924 founding of the movement)--it included the work of Jean
Cocteau, scenery by Picasso, and music by Eric Satie. Satie was part
of a French group of avant-garde composers called Les Six which
included Georges Auric, Louis Durrey, Arthur Honegger, Darius
Milhaud, Francis Poulenc, and Germaine Tailleferre. I would
surmise that a trip to a well stocked music library or an
extensive music store might turn up a composition by some of these
gentlemen, and the linear notes might tell you if they've been
lumped in the category with surrealism.
I would guess that surrealistic music is a little harder to achieve
than is surrealistic literature or painting: surrealism relies on
the juxtaposing of incongruous images, the dredging of irrational
elements from the unconscious. I don't think music could do quite
the same thing, we could get the atonality of a composer like
Arnold Schoenberg or the discordant tonality of Bela Bartok, we
could get even the stream-of-consciousness like flow of Charlie
Parker's jazz improvs, butto what extent this reflects the
essence of surrealism as set forth in Breton's manifestos I am not
certain. But lets be avant-garde about it--indeed, why not
surrealistic music?
Christopher Brian Pound
>In article <20dldl...@chief.isi.com> m...@isi.com (Michael Zheng) writes:
>There is one, much commented upon piece, which might qualify as
>surrealistic music, a ballet called _Parade_, directed by the famous
>Russian Sergey Pavlovich Diaghilev in 1917 (technically before
>the 1924 founding of the movement)--it included the work of Jean
>Cocteau, scenery by Picasso, and music by Eric Satie. Satie was part
>of a French group of avant-garde composers called Les Six
Yeah, the music was by Eric Satie; _Parade_ was also "accompanied by
outrageous sound-effects produced by sirens, whistles and typewriters" (1).
"_Les Marie's de la Tour Eiffel (The Wedding on the Eiffel Tower)_, produced
in 1921 at the The'a^tre des Champs-E'lyse'es, was designed as another ballet,
choreographed this time by Cocteau himself with Jean Borlin, and danced by the
new Swedish ballet under Rolfe de Mare' ...
"It is accompanied sarcastically by a variety of contrapuntal funeral marches,
waltzes and other musical forms, arranged for parody by Georges Auric, Darius
Milhaud, Francis Poulenc, Germaine Tailleferre and other composers of the
'Six', as they came to be known" (2).
Apparently, Cocteau "continued to mix music and mime, ballet dancing and
circus acrobatics" (3) in his later works (e.g. _La Machine infernale_ and
_Orphe'e_).
That's all I can find on Surrealist music ... now, Futurist music, on the
other hand, was pretty well-defined, and judging from the above, I'd be
*very* surprised if it had no influence on Cocteau.
---
(1) J.L. Styan, _Modern drama in theory and practice 2: Symbolism, Surrealism,
and the Absurd_, p. 56
(2) ibid., p. 57
(3) ibid., p. 57-59
There's a ton of stuff on Futurist music in: Michael and Victoria Nes Kirby's
_Futurist Performance_.
--
Christopher Pound + "Homer deserves to be thrown out of the
Anthro Grad Student + contests and flogged."
po...@rice.edu + -- Heraclitus
bruce higgins
writes:
>I would guess that surrealistic music is a little harder to achieve
>than is surrealistic literature or painting: surrealism relies on
>the juxtaposing of incongruous images, the dredging of irrational
>elements from the unconscious.
Indeed. Historically and academically, i suspect that the previous posters are
very close to the mark. However, if you are simply wondering what surrealistic
music *might* sound like, take John Zorn for a spin...say, the Spillane disk.
I don't know that Mr. Zorn considers his music surreal, but it fits the
description quoted above...
<==================/ Everything I'm going to tell you tonight is true...
L. Bruce Higgins / except the part about the banana sticking to the wall
LB...@cornell.edu /============================== - Spalding Gray - =====>
Roger Rohrbach
> Is there such a thing as surrealistic music (forgive me for my
> ignorance)? It there is, could someone point me to some?
I once had an extended affair with Surrealism, concurrent with an interest
in electronic music, especially musique concrete. I consider some classic
works in this genre to be Surrealist, most notably the work of Pierre Henry
(whose _Variations for a Door and a Sigh_ is available on CD!) and Pierre
Schaeffer, working both in collaboration and independently.
In 1975-76 I made several attempts at a Surrealist music. The first
pieces were an application of the Surrealist game "Exquisite Corpse" to
tape music: tape loops sliced together from disparate recorded material
and played for a brief, but suggestive, amount of time. These pieces
were characterized by their evocative, disorienting quality, distinguishing
them from `tape collage' (e.g., Negativeland- more in the Dadaist tradition,
I'd say), `process music' (Steve Reich's early pieces), or purely sonic
exploration (Cage, Stockhausen).
I no longer live by the Surrealist Manifesto, but I still value the
emphasis on poetics, rather than procedure or politics.
--
Roger Rohrbach sun!wrs!roger ro...@wrs.com
- Eddie sez: ----------------------------------------------- (c) 1986, 1992 -.
| {o >o |
| \<>) "My favorite sounds are 8 seconds long!" |
Jens Alfke
> Is there such a thing as surrealistic music (forgive me for my
> ignorance)? It there is, could someone point me to some?
It depends on how picky you want to be about what "surrealism" is. For some
reason it's easier for me to point to (pop) music that exemplifies other
20th-century avant gardes: for instance, much punk music is pretty close to
dada, while the sampling aesthetic found in rap and industrial would feel
right at home to the Futurists (who after all coined the phrase "Art Of
Noise".)
Surrealism? What leaps to mind first is They Might Be Giants, mostly for
their absurd lyrics that involve the same radical juxtapositions and sudden
shifts found in surrealistic writing and painting. Also Robyn Hitchcock...
There are also ties between industrial (the pure-noise variety, not Skinny
Puppy) and Surrealism; consider how strongly influenced industrial culture is
by Surrealist authors like J G Ballard and Wm. S Burroughs. I haven't
personally heard Nurse With Wound, but I gather they're pretty surrealistic
(their style is based on musique concrete, anyway.)
--Jens Alfke Joke: "Ask me if I'm a fire truck."
jens_alfke@quickmail "OK, are you a fire truck?"
.apple.com "No!"
Julie Chason
Compare Fudge Tunnel's "Sunshine of Your Love" to Dali's "Raphaelesque
Head Bursting."
U3...@wvnvm.wvnet.edu
jason c
William Li
>m...@isi.com (Michael Zheng) writes:
>> Is there such a thing as surrealistic music (forgive me for my
>> ignorance)? It there is, could someone point me to some?
>
>
>their absurd lyrics that involve the same radical juxtapositions and sudden
>shifts found in surrealistic writing and painting. Also Robyn Hitchcock...
They Might Be Giants have there own group alt.fan.tmbg, If you like them, then
will probably like King Missle as well. They are often more absurdist for a
point then not, but musically and lyrically, King Missle does capture the
spirit of much that was important to Surrealist artist. (case in point,
their current hit "detacable penis" or the song "I wish" of off their _Road_to_
Salvation_ album.
>
>There are also ties between industrial (the pure-noise variety, not Skinny
>Puppy) and Surrealism; consider how strongly influenced industrial culture is
>by Surrealist authors like J G Ballard and Wm. S Burroughs. I haven't
>personally heard Nurse With Wound, but I gather they're pretty surrealistic
>(their style is based on musique concrete, anyway.)
Old Front 242 jumps strait to the front of my mind. Check out Liebach as well
(i'm not sure, I spelt that correctly) and whoever wrote the soundtracks to
the various works of filmmaker Paul Sharrits is also giften along this same
vein.
-william
Jens Alfke
great Pixies. They had that same spirit of cheerful, anarchic brutality that
characterizes a lot of Surrealism. And they not only wrote a song ("Debaser")
about the classic Dali / Bunuel film "Un Chien d'Andalou", but evoked its
most well-known image with the cow eyeballs on the cover of "Trompe Le
Monde". Bonus: their cover photography by Simon Larbalastiere (sp?) is, at
its best, the equal of anything by Man Ray in my humble opinion. In
particular, the photographs illustrating the different songs on "Doolittle"
are just amazing.
William Li, wil...@owlnet.rice.edu writes:
>Old Front 242 jumps strait to the front of my mind. Check out Liebach as well
I'd characterize Laibach more as Fascist; not implying anything about their
politics, just the turgid bombast of their music. Surrealism is lighter on
its feet.
And don't forget that Cabaret Voltaire are named after the birthplace of
Dada...
fletcher
with Burroughs, etc
[fletcher]
Ed Dambik
Has no one mentioned Pere Ubu?????
Simon Lucas
: It depends on how picky you want to be about what "surrealism" is. For some
: reason it's easier for me to point to (pop) music that exemplifies other
: 20th-century avant gardes: for instance, much punk music is pretty close to
: dada, while the sampling aesthetic found in rap and industrial would feel
I would consider punk to be anything to do with DADA. DADA was an ideology
which sought to turn our precepts on their head. Nothing in punk music
does that. Punk is after all just rock.
: Surrealism? What leaps to mind first is They Might Be Giants, mostly for
: their absurd lyrics that involve the same radical juxtapositions and sudden
: shifts found in surrealistic writing and painting. Also Robyn Hitchcock...
: There are also ties between industrial (the pure-noise variety, not Skinny
: Puppy) and Surrealism; consider how strongly influenced industrial culture is
: by Surrealist authors like J G Ballard and Wm. S Burroughs. I haven't
: personally heard Nurse With Wound, but I gather they're pretty surrealistic
: (their style is based on musique concrete, anyway.)
Nurse With Wound and Current93 are too wanton to be surrealist. They want
to be strange and you cannot wear surrealism on your sleeve. It's not a
commodity.
Once again I wouldn't really associate Ballard or Burroughs with surrealism,
good as these authors are. Real surrealist authors were Lautreamont, Artaud
and Breton.
Once again I would consider any industrial music to be surreal: too
contrived and willingly modernist.
Musique Concrete in it's most unassuming forms could be DADA but a DADA
artist would not call his pop group something stupid like Nurse With Wound.
For me surrealism shows up in the most non-obvious places
and it is not really something that can be put on like a hat/style. It
tends to happen by accident. Blue Velvet is far more surreal in it's strange
realism compared to the obvious Eraserhead, for instance. Strangely odd,
but oddly normal is one way of identifying a surrealism.
Maybe SlappHappy, maybe VU 3rd lp, Someone said Pere Ubu and certainly their
Dub Housing and New Picnic Time could be. Now Robert Wyatt in his quiet way
has that same poetic sensibility (Rock Bottom, Ruth Is Stranger Than Richard).
I think parts of Beach Boys SMILE are subtly surreal and the Residents USED to
achieve it in some of their moments like Walter Westinhouse and Santadog EP
(find them on Fingerprince and 3rd Reich&Roll CD's, now). Of course
now the Residents just churn it out with their bloody synthezisers/samplers
and they are definitely NOT surreal, too easy.
Surrealism is definitly about the poetry often engendered by chance events.
Simon Lucas
Patrick Divine
>Nurse With Wound and Current93 are too wanton to be surrealist. They want
>to be strange and you cannot wear surrealism on your sleeve. It's not a
>commodity.
What about groups such as Einstuerzende Neubauten, Coil or Throbbing Gristle?
especially Neubauten .. I mean, the group toured with U2 in parts of Europe.
I don't think they are going out of their way to be "surreal" .. they
just do whatever happens to come up.
I have an interview with Blixa talking about LaLaLa Human Steps, with Blixa
commenting on how "their [..Steps] ambition of dance theatre wasn't high
enough to live up to the kind of music we did." -- which I thought was
pretty strange considering performances that LaLaLa has put on in the past.
who knows, I guess the whole thing about calling one thing "surreal" and
another thing "not-surreal" is kind of pointless. If we tried defining
surreal as "anything that's weird", or anything that is not in the "norm", we would paradoxialy identify everything
as being surreal.
>
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Jeff Harrington
: >Nurse With Wound and Current93 are too wanton to be surrealist. They want
: >to be strange and you cannot wear surrealism on your sleeve. It's not a
: >commodity.
: What about groups such as Einstuerzende Neubauten, Coil or Throbbing Gristle?
It totally amuses me how visual artists are so unaware of the avant garde
musical traditions. Most of the visual artists I know have _no_ interest in
the non-commercial music world at all...
Really, I like E.N. and Gristle O.K... but to be perfectly frank and IMHO (of
course) they're akin to Peter Max in musical/artistic terms... come on...
For _really_ surrealistic music take a listen to Ligeti (remember the obelisk
music in 2001?) Pendercki, Lutoslawski, these are serious artists making
powerful music. Ligeti's recent opera used surrealistic conventions
throughout its production.
Now I am not into this discussion to stir up flames about audiences or markets
or artistic validity - just to point out that there is a "surrealistic"
musical tradition beyond the rock world... and a big one at that. Peace!!!
Jeff Harrington
idea...@dorsai.dorsai.org
--
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SUGAR in their vitamins?
>For _really_ surrealistic music take a listen to Ligeti (remember the obelisk
>music in 2001?) Pendercki, Lutoslawski, these are serious artists making
>powerful music. Ligeti's recent opera used surrealistic conventions
>throughout its production.
sorry, but i don't see how an opera can be classified as surrealist either.
of course, i don't think of EN or TG when i think of Surrealist music...
when i think of Surrealist music, i think of it being a stream-of-
consciousness flow that is totally unprepared. you're tapping into
your subconscious and letting whatever lurks there come out. meaning,
you can't structure it or write it as a composition. it has to just come
about during the performance itself. the idea of an opera implies to me
something that has been predecided upon with a structure and a composition.
although i would be very interested to read how you logically come
up with that as being Surrealistic.
so really, i might consider someone like GX-Jupiter Larssen/The Haters,
for instance as being truly surrealist simply because he destroys real
objects to create his sounds and therefore no performance is ever the same
thing. the other types of surrealists to me would be Musique Concrete,
other forms of electroacoustic assemblage/decompositions, and some forms
of percussive performance (Z'ev comes to mind here because of some of
the contraptions that he uses tend to exemplify the the laws of chaos).
although my Classical knowlege is limited, in regards to the avant garde
musicians that you list i would include Varasse and Stockhausen perhaps
before the one's you have picked as those to look at. maybe even
Harry Partch as well. the reason why i pick these people are simply
because of their experimental natures even though they are Classical
music. Partch is the most interesting to me because he tended to build
his own specialized instruments that were used in his performances.
it's too bad you had to be so harsh in your first paragraph. i'm sure
it will fan the flame fires because you are implying that you believe
artists that are not Classical to not be real musicians. music is a
subjective thing. there is no way to quantify what is good and what is
bad. it simply is. if you could only see that, we wouldn't be having this
discussion in the first place.
hasta.
--
Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE.
Jens Alfke
Simon Lucas, is_...@king.ac.uk writes:
>Nurse With Wound and Current93 are too wanton to be surrealist. They want
>to be strange and you cannot wear surrealism on your sleeve. It's not a
>commodity.
>
>Once again I wouldn't really associate Ballard or Burroughs with surrealism,
>good as these authors are. Real surrealist authors were Lautreamont, Artaud
>and Breton.
>Once again I would [sic] consider any industrial music to be surreal: too
>contrived and willingly modernist.
Simon, I think you're left holding the position that the only Surrealism is
created either by the people who invented Surrealism, or by naifs (like the
minister guy from the South who did the cover for Talking Heads' "Little
Creatures") who aren't even aware that they're creating it.
To me, this sounds like an extreme position. You're saying that the tradition
died with the creators and cannot willingly be resurrected. I disagree with
this; it implies a level of godhead on the part of the inventors that I am
not willing to ascribe to anyone.
>Musique Concrete in it's most unassuming forms could be DADA but a DADA
>artist would not call his pop group something stupid like Nurse With Wound.
Personally I find "Nurse With Wound" a lot less lame than "Rose Selavy", the
weak pun name to whom Duchamp ascribed some of his works.
Then Jeff Harrington, idea...@dorsai.dorsai.org writes:
>It totally amuses me how visual artists are so unaware of the avant garde
>musical traditions. Most of the visual artists I know have _no_ interest in
>the non-commercial music world at all...
This is a non-sequiteur, to me. Who are the visual artists you're addressing?
And what do you mean by the "non-commercial music world"? It'd be splitting
hairs to discuss the relative non-commerciality of Ligeti vs. Nurse With
Wound; I'd wager that Ligeti's sold far more units, and reached more
listeners given his music's appearance in "2001" and "The Shining".
I think you are using "non-commercial" as a code-word for "non-rock avant
garde".
>For _really_ surrealistic music take a listen to Ligeti (remember the obelisk
>music in 2001?) Pendercki, Lutoslawski, these are serious artists making
>powerful music. Ligeti's recent opera used surrealistic conventions
>throughout its production.
Again, I note your loaded use of the words "serious" and "powerful", the
implication being that they do not apply to any avant garde based on rock.
More to the point, I greatly admire Ligeti, but in the absence of a
well-defined surreal music tradition I would have trouble identifying it as
surreal, since it has no (contemporary) lyrics or visual component. (The
vocal Ligeti pieces I'm familiar with take their texts from the Roman
Catholic mass.) I'd be interested in hearing about his opera.
>Now I am not into this discussion to stir up flames about audiences or
markets
>or artistic validity - just to point out that there is a "surrealistic"
>musical tradition beyond the rock world... and a big one at that. Peace!!!
Mmm, no, I don't buy that. You made some very contentious statements
(especially in a cross-posting to alt.music.alternative) and can't just back
out of them at the last moment. Explain yourself further, please...
Jens Alfke
dkle...@adobe.com writes:
>when i think of Surrealist music, i think of it being a stream-of-
>consciousness flow that is totally unprepared. you're tapping into
>your subconscious and letting whatever lurks there come out. meaning,
>you can't structure it or write it as a composition.
This sounds cool, and stochastic compositions could certainly qualify as
"Surreal", but gen-u-ine Surrealist objets d'art like Breton's novel
"Nana"(?), Bunuel/Dali's film "Un Chien d'Andalou" and Dali's painting "The
Persistence of Memory" weren't created that way. Each shows clear
organization and structure. They were undoubtedly inspired by unconscious
sources, but on top of that was a lot of hard work and structure to allow
that unconscious inspiration to be transmitted to others.
It reminds me of an interview with members of Monty Python, where they said
that, while the hippies of the time loved them and were sure that they got
stoned and made all the stuff up as they went along, it was actually very
structured, very scripted, with almost no improvisation.
Similarly, it's almost impossible to make great art while on drugs (viz.
"Their Satanic Majesties"), whereas it's entirely possible to make great art
that's inspired by drug experiences, viz. "Kublai Khan" or "She Said She
Said"...
Vance Maverick
stochastic compositions could certainly qualify as
"Surreal"
At this point, what is the word "surreal" but a rhetorical heightening
of "strange"? How is "Pithoprakta" surreal? Wouldn't it need some
relationship to the real?
Breton's novel "Nana"(?)
_Nadja_.
Similarly, it's almost impossible to make great art while on drugs (viz.
"Their Satanic Majesties"), whereas it's entirely possible to make great art
that's inspired by drug experiences, viz. "Kublai Khan" or "She Said She
Said"...
If we believe its author, _Kublai Khan_ was composed on opium.
Vance
SubGenius
>m...@isi.com (Michael Zheng) writes:
>> Is there such a thing as surrealistic music (forgive me for my
>> ignorance)? It there is, could someone point me to some?
[deletia]
>Surrealism? What leaps to mind first is They Might Be Giants, mostly for
>their absurd lyrics that involve the same radical juxtapositions and sudden
>shifts found in surrealistic writing and painting. Also Robyn Hitchcock...
+--------------------------------------------------SubG--------------------+
That's funny, 'cause I've always noted more rigidity in the composition
of TMBG's music than in most modern music---I mean, they write bloody
fugues (i.e., `Dinner Bell' off of _Apollo 18_).
+--------------------------------------------------SubG--------------------+
>There are also ties between industrial (the pure-noise variety, not Skinny
>Puppy) and Surrealism; consider how strongly influenced industrial culture is
>by Surrealist authors like J G Ballard and Wm. S Burroughs. I haven't
>personally heard Nurse With Wound, but I gather they're pretty surrealistic
>(their style is based on musique concrete, anyway.)
+---------------------------------------------SubG--------------------------+
I'm not sure that I can buy industrial music in general as surrealistic,
but I suppose some groups in particular (i.e., some of Orb's music) could
easily be called `surrealistic.'
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned:
---Pink Floyd
---John Cage
---Walter/Wendy Carlos
---LaMonte Young
---Kronos Quartet
---Anna Lockwood
..to name just a few.
SubGenius
..and how about the Residents? If we can't at least slip _Third Reich
and Roll_ in as `surrealistic' on a technicality, then I suppose I don't
understand the term.
Yours etc.,
SubGenius
Malcolm Humes
>sorry, but i don't see how an opera can be classified as surrealist either.
>of course, i don't think of EN or TG when i think of Surrealist music...
There's a Philip Glass opera performed in sanskrit, called something like
SataGraya. While I tend to write off Glass as being pop-20th-cent.-classical,
watching this opera on video was sureal for me - about 60-90 minutes into
watching folks stanging stancked 4-high oneach others heads, twirling
signs in sanskrit it started to get really surreal in a sense of creating
a dreamy disassociated feeling, which suddenly opened to a level of absurdity
that had me rolling in laughter. Ok, maybe not surreal in the classic use of
the word, but close enough for me.
>when i think of Surrealist music, i think of it being a stream-of-
>consciousness flow that is totally unprepared. you're tapping into
>your subconscious and letting whatever lurks there come out. meaning,
>you can't structure it or write it as a composition. it has to just come
>about during the performance itself. the idea of an opera implies to me
>something that has been predecided upon with a structure and a composition.
>although i would be very interested to read how you logically come
>up with that as being Surrealistic.
Well put. I'd nominate David Thomas. Holger Czukay. Robert Ashley.
Ornette Coleman? James Blood Ulmer?
>although my Classical knowlege is limited, in regards to the avant garde
>musicians that you list i would include Varasse and Stockhausen perhaps
>before the one's you have picked as those to look at. maybe even
>Harry Partch as well. the reason why i pick these people are simply
>because of their experimental natures even though they are Classical
>music. Partch is the most interesting to me because he tended to build
>his own specialized instruments that were used in his performances.
Nods on Varese and Stockhausen too - Czukay studied with the latter.
Partch supposed was virtually a hobo, often fashioning his instruments
from items he found along the sides of the roads he traveled... This is
supposedly one of the reasons Tom Waits is so inspired by Partch. Waits
seems to be working toward a surealist flow of subconsciousness in his
work, probably more consistently in recent years than the other folks I
mentioned above.
Morton Subotnik did a piece inspired by a surrealist book - based on one
of the collage novels by Max Ernst. David Sylvian and a fwe otehr folks have
done works inspired by Ernst too.
- malcolm
SUGAR in their vitamins?
>that had me rolling in laughter. Ok, maybe not surreal in the classic use of
>the word, but close enough for me.
well, that is pretty bizarre there's no doubt.
>Well put. I'd nominate David Thomas. Holger Czukay. Robert Ashley.
>Ornette Coleman? James Blood Ulmer?
thank you... Holger Czukay would definitely get my nomination as well.
Ornett Coleman? hmmm... i'd have to think about that. of course, this
goes back to what i've always said: it's really just a subjective thing
once you take into account the boundaries of Surrealism as it is
defined.
as you mentioned, Tom Waits would be a good nomination. the other
person i was thinking of recently was Ernest Noyes Brookings. if anyone
is not familiar with him, he was nobody famous or anything except that
when he turned 90 he suddenly decided that he had to write poetry. he
wrote a lot and most of it has a very stream-of-consciousness feel to
it. in the past two years, many musicians have put music to the words
and they have about four volumes of CDs, but it's the words that are
pretty Surrealist to me.
Jens Alfke
>That's funny, 'cause I've always noted more rigidity in the composition
>of TMBG's music than in most modern music---I mean, they write bloody
>fugues (i.e., `Dinner Bell' off of _Apollo 18_).
I was thinking more of the lyrics. But I don't think that Surrealism
necessarily implies a loose, random structure with no thought to it. I just
replied to another such message yesterday. A lot of classic Surrealist works
show very strong technical skills in composition and structuring.
>I'm not sure that I can buy industrial music in general as surrealistic,
>but I suppose some groups in particular (i.e., some of Orb's music) could
>easily be called `surrealistic.'
The chain goes Surrealism -> J G Ballard -> Throbbing Gristle -> other
industrial. Each link is pretty strong. Read the novels "The Drowned World"
or "Crash" or the stories "The Day Of Forever" (inspired by a Di Chirico
painting) or "The Voices of Time".
>I'm surprised nobody's mentioned:
>...
>---Kronos Quartet
Kronos go all over the map stylistically. Which pieces were you thinking of?
The Zorn one on "Winter Was Hard" I'd agree is pretty Surrealistic.
Jens Alfke
> stochastic compositions could certainly qualify as
> "Surreal"
Vance Maverick, mave...@baobab.CS.Berkeley.EDU replies:
>At this point, what is the word "surreal" but a rhetorical heightening
>of "strange"?
No, I am trying to avoid that debasement of the word. What I meant was that a
compositional technique that admits chance and the influence of the
unconscious would seem to jibe with Surrealism. But it would depend on the
piece.
Me:
> Similarly, it's almost impossible to make great art while on drugs (viz.
> "Their Satanic Majesties"), whereas it's entirely possible to make great
art
> that's inspired by drug experiences, viz. "Kublai Khan" or "She Said She
> Said"...
Vance:
>If we believe its author, _Kublai Khan_ was composed on opium.
Well, it was written down after awakening from an opium dream. But you're
right, Coleridge may have, as he said, had the entire text in his mind the
moment he awoke. I tend to believe that he was composing it as he wrote it
down, that his dream was more pre-lingual.
In any case, opium isn't a drug one would normally associate with
Surrealism...
SubGenius
Jens Alfke writes...
>SubGenius, spb...@rigel.tamu.edu writes:
>>That's funny, 'cause I've always noted more rigidity in the composition
>>of TMBG's music than in most modern music---I mean, they write bloody
>>fugues (i.e., `Dinner Bell' off of _Apollo 18_).
>
>I was thinking more of the lyrics. But I don't think that Surrealism
>necessarily implies a loose, random structure with no thought to it. I just
>replied to another such message yesterday. A lot of classic Surrealist works
>show very strong technical skills in composition and structuring.
+--------------------------------------------SubG---------------------------+
Hum. In that case, maybe we can call Chopin and Stravinsky surrealists---
I'm sure when the first "Etudes" or movements of "Le sacre du printemps"
were handed to the performers, they thought the composers must be pretty
divorced from reality.
+--------------------------------------------SubG---------------------------+
>The chain goes Surrealism -> J G Ballard -> Throbbing Gristle -> other
>industrial. Each link is pretty strong. Read the novels "The Drowned World"
>or "Crash" or the stories "The Day Of Forever" (inspired by a Di Chirico
>painting) or "The Voices of Time".
+--------------------------------------------------SubG----------------------+
Thanks for the tip, but I'm way ahead of you. Try _The Unlimited Dream
Company_, perhaps his best novel.
+--------------------------------------------------SubG----------------------+
>
>>I'm surprised nobody's mentioned:
>>...
>>---Kronos Quartet
>
>Kronos go all over the map stylistically. Which pieces were you thinking of?
>The Zorn one on "Winter Was Hard" I'd agree is pretty Surrealistic.
+---------------------------------------------SubG---------------------------+
Um...would that be "Forbidden Fruit" (the one with the scratching noises and
random Oriental vocals)? Yeah, that's right up there.
There's more of the same, stylistically, on their latest album "Short Stories,"
like "Cat 'O Nine Tails" and "Spectre."
Also, most of "Black Angels" sounds pretty surrealistic to me, with the
possible exception of the Shostakovich quartet (which says something).
On the other hand, albums like "White Man Sleeps" and "Pieces of Africa"
are pretty euphonic and almost mainstream---more accessable to the average
listener, anyway.
-SubGenius
Jeff Harrington
: Then Jeff Harrington, idea...@dorsai.dorsai.org writes:
: >It totally amuses me how visual artists are so unaware of the avant garde
: >musical traditions. Most of the visual artists I know have _no_ interest in
: >the non-commercial music world at all...
: This is a non-sequiteur, to me. Who are the visual artists you're addressing?
My spouse and her entire family are visual artists. Her uncle was Salvador
Dali's manager - Robert Descharnes. He still manages his estate. (He's now
going around the world selling Dali Parfum ;-). The only visual artist I've
ever met that had any knowledge of the non-rock musical world was my spouse's
father... your mileage, of course may vary..
: And what do you mean by the "non-commercial music world"? It'd be splitting
: hairs to discuss the relative non-commerciality of Ligeti vs. Nurse With
: Wound; I'd wager that Ligeti's sold far more units, and reached more
: listeners given his music's appearance in "2001" and "The Shining".
Wrong, wrong, wrong, Ligeti was never asked permission for use of his music on
2001. He didn't even know about the movie. Pretty sick... I don't believe
he made a dime off of "The Shining" either.
: I think you are using "non-commercial" as a code-word for "non-rock avant
: garde".
Basically, I mean music in the classical tradition - don't bother flaming me
about rock or non-rock or commercial - my point is just that most visual
artists don't have a clue about anything that's not on MTV - although they
often talk a good talk...
: >For _really_ surrealistic music take a listen to Ligeti (remember the obelisk
: >music in 2001?) Pendercki, Lutoslawski, these are serious artists making
: >powerful music. Ligeti's recent opera used surrealistic conventions
: >throughout its production.
: Again, I note your loaded use of the words "serious" and "powerful", the
: implication being that they do not apply to any avant garde based on rock.
There's a lot of music out there that you'll never hear on the radio which is
much wierder and stranger than Gristle or EN.
: More to the point, I greatly admire Ligeti, but in the absence of a
: well-defined surreal music tradition I would have trouble identifying it as
: surreal, since it has no (contemporary) lyrics or visual component. (The
: vocal Ligeti pieces I'm familiar with take their texts from the Roman
: Catholic mass.) I'd be interested in hearing about his opera.
His opera is totally out, totally wierd. Set on a planet about to be engulfed
by a meteor, ruled by a pointless bureaucracy. Sets were very strange kind of
out of "Cabinet of Dr. Caligari." I mentioned it because he said it was meant
to be a surrealistic opera.
: >Now I am not into this discussion to stir up flames about audiences or
: markets
: >or artistic validity - just to point out that there is a "surrealistic"
: >musical tradition beyond the rock world... and a big one at that. Peace!!!
: Mmm, no, I don't buy that. You made some very contentious statements
: (especially in a cross-posting to alt.music.alternative) and can't just back
: out of them at the last moment. Explain yourself further, please...
My news reader doesn't let me separate postings - I never intended to post to
alt.music.alternative - but now I'll explain myself - people, there's more to
music than rock - that's it - I've got nothing else to say - I love Hendrix,
Led Zep, Big Black - but there's a whole lot of music out there which isn't
getting heard and it's your loss ;-).
Jens Alfke
>alt.music.alternative - but now I'll explain myself - people, there's more to
>music than rock - that's it - I've got nothing else to say - I love Hendrix,
>Led Zep, Big Black - but there's a whole lot of music out there which isn't
>getting heard and it's your loss ;-).
My own experience is that those into avant/experimental rock music know more
about avant/experimental "classical" music than the classic-heads know about
rock.
For instance, take the nm-list, which is mostly devoted to extreme industrial
noise music, but much of the readership is also interested in Kronos, Zorn,
Ligeti, Cage, Subotnick, etc.
Whereas the Serious Music types I've met either turn up their noses at
anything with a strong beat, or have a rock section of their music library
that consists of the Rolling Stones, Boston, and maybe some Fresh Aire (barf)
if they're feeling especially adventurous.
Can't vouch for visual artists, haven't met too many, but my impression is
that there's always been a strong overlap between the art community and the
rock underground. Laurie Anderson (who did make some great music around 1982)
started out as a conceptual artist, and Yoko Ono started out with the Fluxus
art group.
Aidan Heerdegen
*stuff deleted*
>
>---Pink Floyd
>---John Cage
>---Walter/Wendy Carlos
>---LaMonte Young
>---Kronos Quartet
>---Anna Lockwood
>
>..to name just a few.
>
>
>
Well I suppose none of you have heard of "The Skeptics" from
New Zealand...not many people have heard of them from New
Zealand, so I can't be too optimistic. However, they produced
(before their lead singer died of leukemia about 18 moths ago) consistently
amazing music, that can be desribed as surreal (I prefer mind-
fucking but that is my personal preference). Ten years ago
they were producing really full on stuff, making really
excellent use of samples for percussion etc. when everybody
else was just thinking about it .... you guys should try and
get some of their stuff. Flying Nun have recently released a
5 CD box set of all their stuff and some "never before released"
material, probably the last you will ever see of them, except
for re-releases.
Can you fella's get Flying Nun in America???
Spot ya
An ex-pat New Zealander ai...@rschp2.anu.edu.au
--
"I'm not no company man, I can pull on a rope, I can kill a cow as
well as any other fucker can" - BIG BLACK
Aidan Heerdegen
Jeff Harrington
: Jeff Harrington, idea...@dorsai.dorsai.org writes:
: >alt.music.alternative - but now I'll explain myself - people, there's more to
: >music than rock - that's it - I've got nothing else to say - I love Hendrix,
: >Led Zep, Big Black - but there's a whole lot of music out there which isn't
: >getting heard and it's your loss ;-).
: My own experience is that those into avant/experimental rock music know more
: about avant/experimental "classical" music than the classic-heads know about
: rock.
Please don't take this the wrong way - but the "classic-heads" know where to
go if they want rock - puhleeze - we are deluged by rock music practically
every day of our lives - it is no longer the music of rebellion - it is now a
potent revenue-producing product for corporations. Every movie, every
commercial, every TV show - uses rock music soundtracks - now they're not
going to hear your favorite song by The Feelies in these venues - but I think
most of them know where to go if they want to find out ;-).
: For instance, take the nm-list, which is mostly devoted to extreme industrial
: noise music, but much of the readership is also interested in Kronos, Zorn,
: Ligeti, Cage, Subotnick, etc.
: Whereas the Serious Music types I've met either turn up their noses at
: anything with a strong beat, or have a rock section of their music library
: that consists of the Rolling Stones, Boston, and maybe some Fresh Aire (barf)
: if they're feeling especially adventurous.
Tastes are like assholes - everyone got's one... who cares if there are people
who don't like what is in your opinion is good music - it's their loss.
: Can't vouch for visual artists, haven't met too many, but my impression is
: that there's always been a strong overlap between the art community and the
: rock underground. Laurie Anderson (who did make some great music around 1982)
: started out as a conceptual artist, and Yoko Ono started out with the Fluxus
: art group.
My thought on this matter was that "serious" visual artists often don't take
the musical arts seriously... Peace!