Conversations with Dik F. Liu
Ami Tour
A beginner asks:
>Would someone who's never painted before know the
>difference between $5 paint and $100 paint?
And I responded:
Obviously not! But most art teachers will
tell you that buying 'student grade' paints
is only adding another handicap to learning
to paint from scratch. I advise my students
to buy a few tubes of 'brand name' paint
rather than 'no-brand economy' paints. And
several 'good quality' brushes rather than
the cheapest grades sold. Remember - you
only need the primary colors plus white to
start with, providing they are all from the
same manufacturer.
Mr. Know-it-all steps up to the plate:
Nonsense. You can mix and match oil paints from different manufacturers.
Dik
(I should have just said "DUH!" and let it
go at this point, but I tried to be polite)
You're correct, but what you don't say is
that mixing manufacturers is NOT the BEST
way to achieve secondary colors from primaries.
The reputable manufacturers formulate their
paints to intermix - but not necessarily with
those of another manufacturer.
I was trying to help someone
by giving them advice for learning to paint
with a minimum of handicaps - and mixing
paints from different mfrs when one is first
learning is a definite handicap, IMO.
(AND DIKhead, not having understood a thing
I've just said, continues to make mountains
out of molehills of his OWN design!)
That's simply untrue. As anyone who have painted with oils can tell you: oil
paints are seldom available as primary colors. Liquetex tried doing this years
ago (late 70's), and failed. Rather, oil paints are available according to
their PIGMENTS - Cadmium, Iron Oxide, etc. I know of no brand of oil paints
which can not freely mix with that of another brands'. If such a brand exists,
or if that's the brand's spiel, I'd very suspicious of their paints.
I am not just a typing artist. I am in this painting business to make a living
- have been for years. I know whatof I speak. (But he hasn't a clue
what the other person has been saying all along).
Dik
Gud, why are you posting your resume? <g>
I as you are trying to help a beginner. This is why I think it is important not
to mislead him. I understand your wanting to show that your are right. But,
being right is not nearly as important as being helpful.
Dik
(And he finally got it right there - all I was
trying to do is be helpful, and ole Dikhead
decides that all he wants to do is take me down
a notch without first comprehending a thing I've
been saying.)
Dik F. Liu
Dik
Lauri Levanto
>to buy a few tubes of 'brand name' paint
>rather than 'no-brand economy' paints. And
>several 'good quality' brushes rather than
>the cheapest grades sold. Remember - you
>only need the primary colors plus white to
>start with, providing they are all from the
>same manufacturer.
"When teaching old ladies to paint aquarell,
I always say that use the best available paper
and let good colors take care of the rest"
(Joseph Gary: Jimson and the whale)
quoted from memory
-lauri
Chris
from Yale to realize that different paint brands have significantly
different paint qualities - affected by everything from the grinding of the
pigments to the main carrier (different qualities of linseed, poppyseed, and
whatever oils) to the use of fillers etc...Talens Rembrandt (for example)
aims for transparency in many of it's colors; Sennelier for intensity; put
them side by side on the same palette (Dik) and you can see the difference.
Then put on some student grade stuff like Pebeo - it looks like chalk beside
the Sennelier (probably because that's the main component). Then try mixing
the same colors within a brand and between brands, those variations lead to
problems...though that might not be as noticeable if you are just using
paint like icing.
Chris
"Ami Tour" <dob...@dontemailme.com> wrote in message
news:3f5f...@news.zianet.com...
Dik F. Liu
<n...@this.address> writes:
>Then try mixing the same colors within a brand and between brands, those
variations lead to problems..<
I supposed this isn't your fault. It is just a problem with this newsgroup
format. Here, people who just read about paints but obviously have never lifted
a brush write as though they actually know how to paint.
Painters mix and match brands all the time, choosing their favorite colors from
different manufacturers. It's a part of what makes painting fun, Chris. Even if
you can't paint, visit a local painter's studio. Visit a local art school and
see what students have in their palettes, and the variety of paints students
experiment with. Better yet, try painting yourself. Yes, mix and match paints.
I promise it won't explode, and killer bees won't fly in to attack you for
mixing Talen's paints with Sennelier's. And it sure beats imagining and
conjecturing about paints in front of your computer screen.
Dik
Joe Bennett
What a joy to reevist RAF after a year and a half productively away.
Couldn't help getting into this just a bit. I have in current use tubes
of oils from five -- count'em five -- different manufacturers ranging
from a couple of left-over Winsor and Newtons through Sennelier and
Williamsburg, to Old Holland and most recently, a couple of transparent
browns from Maimeri. They are all bunched together willy nilly, and I
use what I use, without regard for the considerations which have
festooned this thread. Thank heavens I am not that smart.
What I will say is that the paints of different manufacturers do indeed
influence the atmosphere of the final work. Sennelier, for instance,
would be my first choice were I to set out to paint something vaguely
impressionistic (not likely), while the Old Holland pigments plainly
lend toward my kind of very old time Northern Europe work. W-burg very
definitely reflects mid-19th Century French stuff, and then Plansky
takes it a step further, to reflect his and his color maker's personal
ideas which are quite interesting.
I can see from my own work when I used only Sennelier, or only Old
Holland. But that doesn't mean all of this stuff can't be mixed and
matched. If I had known all about the alleged difficulties, I would not
have been able to finish most of my work dating back to the early '80s.
Having said all this and grown awfully tired, I retire to a quiet place.
Joe Bennett
Dik F. Liu
years now. I am glad that you have been productive. W-burg paints: a local art
supplier promises to carry the line this Fall; so I am looking forward to
giving them another try. Their white used to be inconsistent but I think they
have improved somewhat. For white, I am pretty addictive to Permalba White -
it's the only Permalba color most artist supplies store carries anyway.
Permalba's other colors are really junky. Permalba was piggybacking these
colors on the reputation of their famous white. But it didn't quite work out.
When I can get my hand on W-burg's white again, I'd give it another try. A
friend who painted just black-and-white paintings loved it.
Happy painting.
Dik
Pepe le Pew
>If I had known all about the alleged difficulties, I would not
>have been able to finish most of my work dating back to the early '80s.
The only "difficulty" in the foregoing thread
was what Dik made of a simple suggestion to
someone who was wanting to know about buying
their first oil paints. I should have simply
said, "you can buy beginner sets of paints"
and left it at that. But I made the mistake
of suggesting that it would make life simpler
to buy all one's first paints in the same brand.
EVERY artist, anyone who has painted a few
paintings, knows it's no problem mixing different
brands. Even a rank beginner will eventually
work their way through to a solution - or worse, give up!
Andrew D
(Dik F. Liu) wrote:
[snip]
>Painters mix and match brands all the time, choosing their favorite colors from
>different manufacturers.
Yes but the initial discussion was about beginners - wasn't it? Beginners
don't have favourite brands or colours - they're beginners.
Starting out with a mixed bag of colours is a bit like trouble-shooting
your computer by changing a dozen different things at a time.... you'll
never know what one thing is causing any problems you might be having.
Andy D.
"I'm a great speller - but a hopless tpyist!"
Dik F. Liu
right@the_end.of.my_tether (Andrew D) writes:
>Starting out with a mixed bag of colours is a bit like trouble-shooting your
computer by changing a dozen different things at a time.<
I guess the real problem here is that there are too many mountebanks as you or
Ami or Goody or Gud or whoever, hiding behind your keyboards and acting as real
painters. Anyone who has walked into a real art school and has watched real art
students working, knows that no one cares about being anal-retentively loyal to
just one brand. It would be pointless, as the difference among the pigments is
far, far greater than the difference between any brands. This you would only
know by painting, not by typing and speculating.
I am not trying to be mean. But get some real painting experience instead of
just making things up. You might be pleasantly surprised.
Dik
Andrew D
(Dik F. Liu) wrote:
>In article <right-16090...@i184-048.nv.iinet.net.au>,
>right@the_end.of.my_tether (Andrew D) writes:
>
>>Starting out with a mixed bag of colours is a bit like trouble-shooting your
>computer by changing a dozen different things at a time.<
>
>I guess the real problem here is that there are too many mountebanks as you or
>Ami or Goody or Gud or whoever, hiding behind your keyboards and acting as real
>painters.
You know nothing about me or what brands of paints I use or recommend.
> Anyone who has walked into a real art school and has watched real art
>students working, knows that no one cares about being anal-retentively loyal to
>just one brand.
If the beginner has a bottomless budget then you are absolutely right (and
you can quote me on that). They can buy two of everything and have a whale
of a time seeing what results. If they are nervous about wasting money and
just want some idea of what a new medium is like to use, then sticking
with one brand is hardly bad advice.
Of course, this assumes that they might actually care what the finished
piece looks like. If they are into abstract expressionism then they can
mix brands and media and supports and hope their artist statement sells it
- assuming they want to sell it that is ;)
Dik F. Liu
right@the_end.of.my_tether (Andrew D) writes:
>If the beginner has a bottomless budget then you are absolutely right (and you
can quote me on that). They can buy two of everything and have a whale of a
time seeing what results. If they are nervous about wasting money and just want
some idea of what a new medium is like to use, then sticking with one brand is
hardly bad advice.<
Huh? The alternative to sticking with one brand is to buy two of everything?
Are you stoned?
Look, painting is what you learn in the real world and from the palette. Either
you know, or you don't. You can't bluff your way through it by typing onto your
screen ideas that look pretty good and sound kinda right. No offense, but may I
suggest that you begin by taking a painting course in a local school? If you
don't take it for credits, the fee is reasonably low. You will have some real
painting experience under your belt; and it's better time spent than just
typing away while imagining what real painting is like.
Dik
Flying _Naked_People
<20030917022441...@mb-m15.aol.com>...
I have a feeling you're going to eat crow once (if) you see Andrew's art. I've
never seen it, but through his text, I can sense his mind is that of an
extremely detailed sort. And I believe he has labeled himself in the past as a
super-realist (or photorealist). Since he's recently shown at a gallery, I
just don't think a "painting course" is relevant here.
But hey - it's your flame. <chomp chomp>
> Dik
>
Flying _Naked_People
does extend, I agree with the minority here - don't mix brands unless you're
experienced enough to compensate for the differences (which are apparent).
I've noticed differences in two brands of acrylic paint AFTER they dried. And
the experienced eye could see where Brand X was applied - it left a sheen
behind while the rest of the paint dried flat!
judith
Flying _Naked_People wrote in message ...
Bring out the knives & forks and mind you don't choke on the feathers.
I have seen Andrew's art - in exhibition - and it's damn good. He knows his
craft.
J
Dik F. Liu
writes:
>Bring out the knives & forks and mind you don't choke on the feathers. I have
seen Andrew's art - in exhibition - and it's damn good. He knows his craft.<
I'd be very surprised if a real painter is so ignorant of the basic facts in
painting.
Dik
Dik F. Liu
<http://www.rcip.com/nerdgerl/email.htm> writes:
>Is this an OIL paint thing? Or does the issue extend to other media.<
I can't speak for other media; but it's no secret that with oil painting you
needn't restrict yourself to just one brand. If you see a color you need, you
can always mix it with whatever brands of oil paints you are using. It's a part
of what makes oil painting fun.
For example, if you need W&N's Permanent Rose, by all means mix it with your
Utrecht colors. Utrecht doesn't make this shade of red; and you needn't
shortchange yourself by sticking to this single brand theory.
Dik
keith o'connor
--
take care: Keith
The eye should not be lead where there is nothing to see.
Robert Henri - The Art Spirit
"Dik F. Liu" <dik...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030917022441...@mb-m15.aol.com...
keith o'connor
--
take care: Keith
The eye should not be lead where there is nothing to see.
Robert Henri - The Art Spirit
"Dik F. Liu" <dik...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030917104913...@mb-m05.aol.com...
keith o'connor
--
take care: Keith
The eye should not be lead where there is nothing to see.
Robert Henri - The Art Spirit
"Dik F. Liu" <dik...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030917113500...@mb-m05.aol.com...
Andrew D
(Dik F. Liu) wrote:
>In article <right-17090...@i185-126.nv.iinet.net.au>,
>right@the_end.of.my_tether (Andrew D) writes:
>
>>If the beginner has a bottomless budget then you are absolutely right (and you
>can quote me on that). They can buy two of everything and have a whale of a
>time seeing what results. If they are nervous about wasting money and just want
>some idea of what a new medium is like to use, then sticking with one brand is
>hardly bad advice.<
>
>Huh? The alternative to sticking with one brand is to buy two of everything?
>Are you stoned?
>Look, painting is what you learn in the real world and from the palette.
Just like driving is what you learn behind the wheel of a car - but if you
want to be a good driver, you learn one bit at a time. Yes, I know,
painting is different - but starting small and working up is hardly bad
advice.
>Either
>you know, or you don't. You can't bluff your way through it by typing onto your
>screen ideas that look pretty good and sound kinda right.
You may not have noticed Dik but you spend as much time, if not more,
posting to this forum as those you take issue with. So, if posting here
proves someone to be anything but a real artist, then what qualifies you
to offer advice?
> No offense, but may I
>suggest that you begin by taking a painting course in a local school? If you
>don't take it for credits, the fee is reasonably low. You will have some real
>painting experience under your belt; and it's better time spent than just
>typing away while imagining what real painting is like.
No offence taken. I do just fine with my painting, but thanks for the advice.
Andrew D
<http://www.rcip.com/nerdgerl/email.htm> wrote:
[snip]
>I have a feeling you're going to eat crow once (if) you see Andrew's art. I've
>never seen it, but through his text, I can sense his mind is that of an
>extremely detailed sort. And I believe he has labeled himself in the past as a
>super-realist (or photorealist). Since he's recently shown at a gallery, I
>just don't think a "painting course" is relevant here.
I'm not a super-realist, though I have done some fairly super-realist work
in the past - though this was all commercial stuff for signage and the
like.
These days, as far as fine art goes, I guess you'd lump me in the tonal
impressionist camp (I'm not big on the various categories). I paint light
and shade, mainly on the landscape.
Andrew D
Geez, thanks Judith!! BTW, I make the big move in a few weeks (eek!). If
the shakes don't stop soon, my next batch of paintings will be
"interesting". :)
Dik F. Liu
>Your starting to get personal - you must be loosing the argument.<
>He's got you - your finished - he has reduced you to a babbling wreck.<
>Your beginning to sound more reasonable.<
Geez, another kibitzer....
Dik
Dik F. Liu
right@the_end.of.my_tether (Andrew D) writes:
>You may not have noticed Dik but you spend as much time, if not more, posting
to this forum as those you take issue with.<
This is true. I did not expect to encounter so many dabblers who are ignorant
to what is taught to every art college freshman. I don't know what the sensible
solution is, Andrew. The fault is really this newsgroup format, where the likes
of you and Gud and Goody and Ami can utter any baloney no matter how contrary
it is to basic facts known within the profession. The real loser here are the
questioners. They came looking for useful information, and walked away
confused.
>No offence taken. I do just fine with my painting, but thanks for the advice.<
You are very welcome. I am glad to be of help.
Dik