Liquin in oil mediums: any observations/opinions?
Rodney J Anderson
into the habit of using Liquin in my mediums, as it's (as far as I know) the
cheapest resin you can get off the shelf here. I've never heard my teacher
(or other artists in the area) say a word against the stuff, but I can't
help but wonder: am I cheating myself? Are there effects that natural
resins can supply that Liquin can't? Does anyone know if Liquin has the
long-term durability of, say, copal? (How long has Liquin been around,
anyway?) It may not matter that much in student work, but one day I'd like
to paint professionally, and I'm curious about these things . . .
A Web search for "Liquin" didn't turn up much info that seemed helpful
to me -- I'd like to hear the opinion of any experienced painters here who'd
care to comment.
--Rod Anderson
"Ignoramus, n. A person unacquainted with certain kinds of knowledge
familiar to yourself, and having certain other kinds that you know nothing
about."
--Ambrose Bierce, from "The Devil's Dictionary"
A. B. Sieze
says...
> A Web search for "Liquin" didn't turn up much info that seemed helpful
>to me -- I'd like to hear the opinion of any experienced painters here who'd
>care to comment.
>
>--Rod Anderson
I did a web search and came up with this excellent reference
for painting mediums of all kinds:
http://www.saumag.edu/art/studio/chalkboard/p-medium.html
If you want someone to talk to about Liquin, you might call
Daniel Smith and ask if they still have a technical expert
who you can talk to about Daniel Smith's alkyd resin that is
the same or close to the same formulation as Liquin, which
is manufactured by Winsor and Newton.
I use liquin when painting en plein air and I also use
Cobalt driers with my 'standard' medium which is a blend
of Damar varnish, turpentine, and stand oil. The cobalt
drier should be used very sparingly -- a drop at a time --
until you see what the results are. Cheers, Abby.
Charles Eicher
wrote:
> In article <757liq$6c58$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>,
BAR...@prodigy.net
> says...
>
>
> > A Web search for "Liquin" didn't turn up much info that seemed helpful
> >to me -- I'd like to hear the opinion of any experienced painters here who'd
> >care to comment.
> >
> >--Rod Anderson
>
> I did a web search and came up with this excellent reference
> for painting mediums of all kinds:
>
> http://www.saumag.edu/art/studio/chalkboard/p-medium.html
>
> If you want someone to talk to about Liquin, you might call
> Daniel Smith and ask if they still have a technical expert
> who you can talk to about Daniel Smith's alkyd resin that is
> the same or close to the same formulation as Liquin, which
> is manufactured by Winsor and Newton.
Actually, W&N has some chemists that are usually pretty glad to discuss
obscure chemical issues, why not just call them up?
I just don't like Liquin, and I don't recommend it for serious oil
painting. It leaves a dull finish, and can become translucent which does
all sorts of nasty things to your colors. Its sort of like viewing that
color through frosted glass. Plus, it really stinks, worse than anything
else I use in painting (including raw turps). Smelling liquin makes me ill.
You really deserve a better medium than liquin.
----------------
Charles Eicher
cei...@inav.net
----------------
Rodney J Anderson
one-page reference sheet on oil mediums was particularly nice --
http://www.saumag.edu/art/studio/chalkboard/p-medium.html -- painting
students, check it out.)
>I just don't like Liquin [. . . ] it really stinks, worse than anything
>else I use in painting (including raw turps). Smelling liquin makes me ill.
Funny, I don't mind it so much. It's Damar that kills me -- an unguarded
whiff of that stuff sends me reeling. Now that I think about it, that's why
I started using Liquin in the first place. . .
>You really deserve a better medium than liquin.
Maybe so -- but I'll go ahead and finish off the bottle I have, since I paid
for it and everything. :-)
jonnas...@my-dejanews.com
cei...@inav.net (Charles Eicher) wrote:
> In article <36784...@oracle.zianet.com>, non...@nomail.com (A. B. Sieze)
> wrote:
>
> > In article <757liq$6c58$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>,
> BAR...@prodigy.net
> > says...
> >
> >
> > > A Web search for "Liquin" didn't turn up much info that seemed helpful
> > >to me -- I'd like to hear the opinion of any experienced painters here
who'd
> > >care to comment.
> > >
> > >--Rod Anderson
> >
> > I did a web search and came up with this excellent reference
> > for painting mediums of all kinds:
> >
> > http://www.saumag.edu/art/studio/chalkboard/p-medium.html
> >
> > If you want someone to talk to about Liquin, you might call
> > Daniel Smith and ask if they still have a technical expert
> > who you can talk to about Daniel Smith's alkyd resin that is
> > the same or close to the same formulation as Liquin, which
> > is manufactured by Winsor and Newton.
>
> Actually, W&N has some chemists that are usually pretty glad to discuss
> obscure chemical issues, why not just call them up?
>
> I just don't like Liquin, and I don't recommend it for serious oil
> painting. It leaves a dull finish, and can become translucent which does
> all sorts of nasty things to your colors. Its sort of like viewing that
> else I use in painting (including raw turps). Smelling liquin makes me ill.
>
>
Although I like the effects that Liquin and other alkyd products produce
(transparency and quick drying time, among others), the problem goes beyond
just the bad smell, the fumes are toxic and make me ill. I would advise
anyone who uses alkyd products to have extremely good ventilation when using
them.
--
Jonna
------
Jonna's Artrek - A Journey in Art
http://homepages.infoseek.com/~artrek
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
R/L Davis
>
> Thanks to Mssrs. Sieze and Eicher for all the help and suggestions (that
> one-page reference sheet on oil mediums was particularly nice --
> http://www.saumag.edu/art/studio/chalkboard/p-medium.html -- painting
> students, check it out.)
>
> >else I use in painting (including raw turps). Smelling liquin makes me ill.
>
> whiff of that stuff sends me reeling. Now that I think about it, that's why
> I started using Liquin in the first place. . .
>
>
> for it and everything. :-)
>
> --Rod Anderson
Rod,
One should preferably not use a medium at all. An addition to oil paint
should only be made when a desired effect cannot be found otherwise.
With more and more research conservators are finding that there was
almost no use of resins in paintings from the Renaissance, resins were
used as a final varnish but not in the paint itself.
Having said that, I use Liquin in combination with stand oil in most of
my work. I use the Liquin because it dries to a very tough film,
because it add's very little thickness to the film when it dries (when
equal quantities of Liquin, damar, linseed oil, stand oil, etc.are
painted out on glass, the film of Liquin is much thinner after it has
dried), and because it makes the paint dry faster. I add stand oil to
my medium because of it's very strong levelling property. A paint
containing stand oil will dry to a level film rather than holding the
texture of the brush strokes.
Alkyd resins have not been around long enough to say for sure that they
will stand the test of time (neither have acrylics), but they have
proven themselves to be very good resins in industrial coatings. When
an alkyd resin medium such as Liquin is painted out on a piece of glass
along with samples of damar varnish or venice turpentine, the natural
resins become extremely brittle after a very short period, forming a
very fine
pattern of all over cracking. The alkyd resin, on the other hand stays
as a very tough, leathery film for many years.
I agree, Liquin stinks, but so does turpentine. I've been using Liquin
or other alkyd resins for more than 15 years with no ill effects.
As far as other brands of alkyd resin mediums go, however, I have found
that some do not mix properly with stand oil. When mixed with stand
some alkyd painting mediums will cause a resinous material to separate
out, and this resinous material cannot be worked back into the mix.
It's very easy to test for this effect by mixing the two and putting
them up in a small jar. The separation will occur as quickly as a day
or two.
Hope that helps.
Richard
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/doghouse/richard/homepage.html
Charles Eicher
> One should preferably not use a medium at all. An addition to oil paint
> should only be made when a desired effect cannot be found otherwise.
That is ridiculous. "Oil paint" without medium is just a dry powder. All
premanufactured oil paint contains linseed oil and other mediums. If you
are painting "without medium" that only means you are not adding MORE
medium to the paint as it comes out of the tube.
> With more and more research conservators are finding that there was
> almost no use of resins in paintings from the Renaissance, resins were
> used as a final varnish but not in the paint itself.
Medium is not synonymous with varnish or resins.
> Having said that, I use Liquin in combination with stand oil in most of
> my work. I use the Liquin because it dries to a very tough film,
> because it add's very little thickness to the film when it dries (when
> equal quantities of Liquin, damar, linseed oil, stand oil, etc.are
> painted out on glass, the film of Liquin is much thinner after it has
> dried), and because it makes the paint dry faster.
That is exactly the OPPOSITE of the purpose of mediums. The whole point of
an oil medium is to INCREASE the volume of the paint, and to create a
suspension of pigment particles in a transparent, thick layer so that light
can penetrate the paint and illuminate it from within. I'm not talking
about thick impasto, just normal painting. If you want flat thin colors,
you're using the wrong medium. Skip oil painting, try using gouache on
paper.
> ..I add stand oil to
> my medium because of it's very strong levelling property. A paint
> containing stand oil will dry to a level film rather than holding the
> texture of the brush strokes.
Very interesting. I use medium of Stand oil precisely for the opposite
reason, it gives my brushstrokes volume and thickness. It also allows me to
paint alla prima, I can paint wet over wet without disturbing (much) the
thick underlayer.
>
> Alkyd resins have not been around long enough to say for sure that they
> will stand the test of time (neither have acrylics), but they have
> proven themselves to be very good resins in industrial coatings. When
> an alkyd resin medium such as Liquin is painted out on a piece of glass
> along with samples of damar varnish or venice turpentine, the natural
> resins become extremely brittle after a very short period, forming a
> very fine
> pattern of all over cracking.
Which is why these chemicals are not used by themselves, but in combination
with other mediums, which temper the mix and compensate for the flaws in
each single chemical. For example, my preferred medium is a mix of stand
oil, regular linseed, and damar varnish. The stand oil adds thickness and
volume, and aids drying. The regular linseed adds flexibility and cuts the
stand oil a bit. The Damar varnish helps improve adhesion, and helps the
paint flow from the brush to the canvas more easily.
> ..The alkyd resin, on the other hand stays
> as a very tough, leathery film for many years.
I'm not sure that this is a desirable thing.
If you want to paint with Liquin, you might as well use acrylic paints,
because that's the sort of effects you will get. If you want to be a GOOD
oil painter, you will have to master the use of medium. Even if you never
add medium, just changing the amount of turpentine that you dilute raw
paint right out of the tube, you will still be manipulating the qualities
of the medium in the paint.
Andy Pearlman
Charles Eicher wrote:
Actually, I've found a Liquin/Linseed Oil mix to be a decent substitute for
Turpentine. The Liquin cancels the extra drying time for linseed oil And it gets
the glows of oil. It does some beautiful oil glazes, too.
Andy
--
Andy Pearlman - artwork at http://www.inet-images.com/gallery/pearlman_a.html
R/L Davis
>
> In article <367ACF...@tallships.ca>, R/L Davis <dav...@tallships.ca> wrote:
>
> > should only be made when a desired effect cannot be found otherwise.
>
> That is ridiculous. "Oil paint" without medium is just a dry powder. All
> premanufactured oil paint contains linseed oil and other mediums. If you
> are painting "without medium" that only means you are not adding MORE
> medium to the paint as it comes out of the tube.
Charles,
Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed?:-) Since my reply was to a
question about the addition of a medium to oil paint, and since I
mention an "addition to oil paint", I would assume most folks would
understand my statement above to mean using a medium as an
_addition_to_an_oil_paint_, "oil paint" being a mixture of a
sufficient amount of oil to bind a pigment. The problem with most oil
paintings today is undoubtedly the use of far too much medium in the
paint, especially since most tube oil paints are manufactured with too
much oil in the first place (I think I can hear Charles' keyboard
clicking already:-)
> > With more and more research conservators are finding that there was
> > almost no use of resins in paintings from the Renaissance, resins were
> > used as a final varnish but not in the paint itself.
>
> Medium is not synonymous with varnish or resins.
I am not saying it is. I am just suggesting that the addition of a
resin to oil paint is unnecessary.
> > Having said that, I use Liquin in combination with stand oil in most of
> > my work. I use the Liquin because it dries to a very tough film,
> > because it add's very little thickness to the film when it dries (when
> > equal quantities of Liquin, damar, linseed oil, stand oil, etc.are
> > painted out on glass, the film of Liquin is much thinner after it has
> > dried), and because it makes the paint dry faster.
>
> That is exactly the OPPOSITE of the purpose of mediums.
No, the purpose of a medium is to give the paint a desired effect. Your
desired effect is far different from mine.
> The whole point of
> an oil medium is to INCREASE the volume of the paint, and to create a
> suspension of pigment particles in a transparent, thick layer so that light
> can penetrate the paint and illuminate it from within. I'm not talking
> about thick impasto, just normal painting.
That's _your_ point of a medium. Making a paint thick and transparent
is technically a poor practice. A very thin, transparent paint will
give a much more luminous and brilliant colour than one sopping with
resins and oils, resins and oils that will only yellow the effect in
time and weaken the paint film.
> If you want flat thin colors,
> you're using the wrong medium. Skip oil painting, try using gouache on
> paper.
Thanks for the tip:-)
> > ..I add stand oil to
> > my medium because of it's very strong levelling property. A paint
> > containing stand oil will dry to a level film rather than holding the
> > texture of the brush strokes.
>
> Very interesting. I use medium of Stand oil precisely for the opposite
> reason, it gives my brushstrokes volume and thickness. It also allows me to
> paint alla prima, I can paint wet over wet without disturbing (much) the
> thick underlayer.
Oil paint _has_ volume, it does not need volume. Stand oil _will_ make
oil paint more sticky (thick) but it will cause the paint to level out
much more so than oils straight from the tube.
> > Alkyd resins have not been around long enough to say for sure that they
> > will stand the test of time (neither have acrylics), but they have
> > proven themselves to be very good resins in industrial coatings. When
> > an alkyd resin medium such as Liquin is painted out on a piece of glass
> > along with samples of damar varnish or venice turpentine, the natural
> > resins become extremely brittle after a very short period, forming a
> > very fine
> > pattern of all over cracking.
>
> Which is why these chemicals are not used by themselves, but in combination
> with other mediums, which temper the mix and compensate for the flaws in
> each single chemical. For example, my preferred medium is a mix of stand
> oil, regular linseed, and damar varnish. The stand oil adds thickness and
> volume, and aids drying.
Stand oil dries more slowly than linseed oil. (If you don't agree
_test_it_ before arguing with me.)
> The regular linseed adds flexibility and cuts the
> stand oil a bit.
Stand oil is flexible. Why do you want to "cut" the stand?
> The Damar varnish helps improve adhesion, and helps the
> paint flow from the brush to the canvas more easily.
Damar does not improve adhesion. The opposite, if anything, is true.
> > ..The alkyd resin, on the other hand stays
> > as a very tough, leathery film for many years.
>
> I'm not sure that this is a desirable thing.
You'd rather the film become brittle?
> If you want to paint with Liquin, you might as well use acrylic paints,
> because that's the sort of effects you will get.
You are suggesting the use of Liquin in oil paints will handle in a
similar way, and give
similar effects to Acrylics?
> If you want to be a GOOD
> oil painter, you will have to master the use of medium.
I will stand by my work, and I certainly think I have mastered my
medium.
> Even if you never
> add medium, just changing the amount of turpentine that you dilute raw
> paint right out of the tube, you will still be manipulating the qualities
> of the medium in the paint.
Well, at least we can agree on one thing (though I'm not sure why you
said that.)
Charles, I've seen your posts here many times in the past and have
generally found
you reasonably intelligent as well as reasonable. I stopped even
visiting this site for
almost a year because I found some folks, Mr. Deli in particular, take
all the fun out of
being here. This is my first venture back. I have to think you are
spending too much
time here, Mr. Deli is starting to rub off on you. If you want to
discourage artists like
myself from replying to questions at rec.arts.fine, reply's like your's
will do the trick.
Richard Davis
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/doghouse/richard/homepage.html
Charles Eicher
respond to one point, but I will leave the technical issues until tomorrow.
In article <367B3D...@tallships.ca>, R/L Davis <dav...@tallships.ca> wrote:
> Charles, I've seen your posts here many times in the past and have
> generally found
> you reasonably intelligent as well as reasonable. I stopped even
> visiting this site for
> almost a year because I found some folks, Mr. Deli in particular, take
> all the fun out of
> being here. This is my first venture back. I have to think you are
> spending too much
> time here, Mr. Deli is starting to rub off on you. If you want to
> discourage artists like
> myself from replying to questions at rec.arts.fine, reply's like your's
> will do the trick.
Reasonable men have disagreements over even the basics of their
technologies. As you yourself also seem reasonable (up to a point) I am
sure that you can see a huge difference between the sort of flamebaiting
and mindlessly contentious argument that Mani would promote, and my own
remarks. My remarks were in no way meant to be combative, merely to show
that the same techniques might be put to different ends by different
people. I have never found a single painter who didn't think that THEIR
technique (and only their technique) was the one proper way to paint. I try
to think a little more broadly, so I do have to contest anyone who says
that a certain medium is only to be used in a certain manner, as I have
interpreted your remarks. Perhaps I have misinterpreted your remarks, so
feel free to clarify.
I'll get to the chemical issues later, when I have more time (I'm late for
an appointment right now). Perhaps this will clarify things for both of us.
Jim Leonard
> > will stand the test of time (neither have acrylics), but they have
> > proven themselves to be very good resins in industrial coatings. When
> > an alkyd resin medium such as Liquin is painted out on a piece of glass
> > along with samples of damar varnish or venice turpentine, the natural
> > resins become extremely brittle after a very short period, forming a
> > very fine
> > pattern of all over cracking.
I've actually seen work by a painter who romanticized this cracking and
thru the use of drying agents was able to coax the paint into form
beautiful networks of cracks on its surface. (Much like parched mud!)
This was done by getting the top layer of paint to dry faster than the
layer(s) below...much like "magic shell" on ice cream.
> > ..The alkyd resin, on the other hand stays
> > as a very tough, leathery film for many years.
>
> I'm not sure that this is a desirable thing.
>
> If you want to paint with Liquin, you might as well use acrylic paints,
> because that's the sort of effects you will get. If you want to be a GOOD
> oil painter, you will have to master the use of medium. Even if you never
> add medium, just changing the amount of turpentine that you dilute raw
> paint right out of the tube, you will still be manipulating the qualities
> of the medium in the paint.
I totally agree with Charles here. But I've gotta pipe up when I hear
the ENTIRETY of acrylic media lumped in with the mediocrity of Liquin.
Acrylics...particularly Golden Acrylics...can be used in manners that
make oil media blush with envy. For example, no ammount of beeswax can
give oil the body that can be achieved with a quality pumice medium and
raw pigments. Recently I've been working on a new series of
"topographical" paintings whose surfaces are dense with mountains and
valleys (like landscapes viewed from space). The first few in this
series which were started in oils have turned out to be unarchival
disasters simply because of the amount of wax necessary to thicken up
the oil media.
Additionally, I have yet to hear of any oil media (traditional or
experimental) that can compare with some of the luminous quality
available in refractive media (bending light into a color instead of
reflecting back a wavelength). If anyone has heard of oil media that do
this as brilliantly as some of the newer acrylics I'd be very interested
to know more.
Finally, acrylics open up the ground on which you can work. If you are
attracted to raw canvas or other materials, the ONLY way to make an
archival painting on these is to use an acrylic based paint.
Despite my praise for the merits of acrylics though, I will acknowledge
that the majority of them including that ubiquitous Liquitex are
horrible products-both in body and in pigment.
br...@wralaw.com
> > ..I add stand oil to
> > my medium because of it's very strong levelling property. A paint
> > containing stand oil will dry to a level film rather than holding the
> > texture of the brush strokes.
> Very interesting. I use medium of Stand oil precisely for the opposite
> reason, it gives my brushstrokes volume and thickness. It also allows me to
> paint alla prima, I can paint wet over wet without disturbing (much) the
> thick underlayer.
Stand oil does both depending on how you use it, it adds thickness like
honey, which depending on the paint used and other mediums can help or
hinder brush strokes.
I like stand and/venice turps. because the paint goes down where exactly
where you put it but the high viscocity liquid effect smooths out all
brush strokes, when used at I would guess I use about 30% stand or
venice for regular lean oils.
> > ..The alkyd resin, on the other hand stays
> > as a very tough, leathery film for many years.
> I'm not sure that this is a desirable thing.
Hard and Flexible is desireable which is what one gets with lead white,
which is often described in texts as lethery.
> If you want to paint with Liquin, you might as well use acrylic paints,
> because that's the sort of effects you will get. If you want to be a GOOD
I am opistimic but not faithful about alkyde, it can be used with oils,
interchangably I've found but the quality standards for Alkyde are
mediocre compared with oil. For some odd reason from the tube alkyde
white titanium, I think W&N, is slightly grey in comparison to old
Holland titanium oil with cp, oil. In theory old Holland may yellow
beyond the W&N but it would be nice if W&N or old Holland would make
a pristine alkyde white. I've read that old masters mixed white with
liquid amber varnish instead of oil, would anyone know if this would
be advisable with titanium dioxide as opposed to lead white.
> oil painter, you will have to master the use of medium. Even if you never
> add medium, just changing the amount of turpentine that you dilute raw
> paint right out of the tube, you will still be manipulating the qualities
> of the medium in the paint.
>
> ----------------
> Charles Eicher
> cei...@inav.net
> ----------------
Larry Seiler
can cause problems down the road. Many simply don't care, so I suppose its
one's personal choice.
On the other hand cobalt drier is not progressive, is also affordable, and
totally manageable. You can experiment on the number of drops you wish to
use.
Forgot what it was I heard about the Japanese driers....but it wasn't good,
and I simply stay away from those.
--
Larry Seiler
my art web site at- http://cwinc.net/larryseiler
"Art attacks can skill!"
Rodney J Anderson <BAR...@prodigy.net> wrote in article
<757liq$6c58$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
> Hi. I'm a painting student in Corpus Christi, TX, and I've gotten
> into the habit of using Liquin in my mediums, as it's (as far as I know)
the
> cheapest resin you can get off the shelf here. I've never heard my
teacher
> (or other artists in the area) say a word against the stuff, but I can't
> help but wonder: am I cheating myself? Are there effects that natural
> resins can supply that Liquin can't? Does anyone know if Liquin has the
> long-term durability of, say, copal? (How long has Liquin been around,
> anyway?) It may not matter that much in student work, but one day I'd
like
> to paint professionally, and I'm curious about these things . . .
> A Web search for "Liquin" didn't turn up much info that seemed
helpful
> to me -- I'd like to hear the opinion of any experienced painters here
who'd
> care to comment.
>
> --Rod Anderson
>
Jim Leonard
>
> What I've read is that Liquin is a progressive drier...and in stages. This
> can cause problems down the road. Many simply don't care, so I suppose its
> one's personal choice.
Please elaborate on this topic...progressive drying. I'm not familiar
with this term. Is this a chemical reference to something drying from
the inside out versus from the outside in?
> On the other hand cobalt drier is not progressive, is also affordable, and
> totally manageable. You can experiment on the number of drops you wish to
> use.
Of course when recommending cobalt drier, you should point out its
extreme toxicity. Cobalt is a neurotoxin that can enter through the
skin.
Cheers,
Jim
R/L Davis
>
> I was just on my way out the door when I saw your message. I'll briefly
> respond to one point, but I will leave the technical issues until tomorrow.
>
>
> > Charles, I've seen your posts here many times in the past and have
> > generally found
> > you reasonably intelligent as well as reasonable. I stopped even
> > visiting this site for
> > almost a year because I found some folks, Mr. Deli in particular, take
> > all the fun out of
> > being here. This is my first venture back. I have to think you are
> > spending too much
> > time here, Mr. Deli is starting to rub off on you. If you want to
> > discourage artists like
> > myself from replying to questions at rec.arts.fine, reply's like your's
> > will do the trick.
>
> technologies. As you yourself also seem reasonable (up to a point) I am
> sure that you can see a huge difference between the sort of flamebaiting
> and mindlessly contentious argument that Mani would promote, and my own
> remarks. My remarks were in no way meant to be combative, merely to show
> that the same techniques might be put to different ends by different
> people.
That is not the way I read your reply. I got the distinct impression
that one of us know what they were talking about and it certainly was
not me.
My post was largely an explanation of how and why I use Liquin, and why
I use it over other possible mediums. Others may differ, I did not
suggest they couldn't.
My first statement was concerning the over use of mediums of all sorts
in oil painting. I believe that many beginning artists (it sounded to
me like the person who started this thread was probably such a beginning
artist) have the opinion that oil paint _need's_ an added medium, one
just doesn't paint without it. I wanted to point out first that a
medium is not a necessity.
> I have never found a single painter who didn't think that THEIR
> technique (and only their technique) was the one proper way to paint. I try
> to think a little more broadly,
I did not get the impression you were thinking broadly at all, but,
rather, suggesting you were right and I was obviously not.
> so I do have to contest anyone who says
> that a certain medium is only to be used in a certain manner, as I have
> interpreted your remarks. Perhaps I have misinterpreted your remarks, so
> feel free to clarify.
maybe someone else can jump in here, but I thought I was simply spelling
out how and why I use Liquin. Perhaps you did misinterpret my remarks.
And your reply definitely did not bring out the best in me with my reply
to you. For some reason this news group seems to generate a great deal
of bicker rather than debate. Perhaps it's because, as artists, we all
tend to be wearing our hearts on our sleeves.
> I'll get to the chemical issues later, when I have more time (I'm late for
> an appointment right now). Perhaps this will clarify things for both of us.
I look forward to your comments.
Richard
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/doghouse/richard/homepage.html
A. B. Sieze
>And your reply definitely did not bring out the best in me with my reply
>to you. For some reason this news group seems to generate a great deal
>of bicker rather than debate. Perhaps it's because, as artists, we all
>tend to be wearing our hearts on our sleeves.
Charles has always been one of the more authoritarian voices
in this forum. Contentious and pretentious is how I think of him.
He rarely replies to anything I post anymore. As for returning
to this forum yourself, welcome back. I think that by being
selective about what one downloads to read one can pick the better
contributions to this group. There has been a lot of really
intelligent discussion lately as opposed to the mindless
repitition of the 'Mani Deli's.' I've been a contributor and sideline
coach for many years now and haven't let contention and
animosity get my goat... yet... Cheers, Abby.
R/L Davis
>
> >Stand oil dries more slowly than linseed oil. (If you don't agree
> >_test_it_ before arguing with me.)
> >
>
> linseed oil. That is why it is used in glazing, in addition to it's leveling
> property. I've using it for years.
> Bonnie
Bonnie,
After my post I did a quick test of paint swatch's of burnt umber,
straight from the tube (I used it because it's a very fast dryer), mixed
1 to 1 and 5 to 1 with linseed oil, a thin generic brand of stand oil,
and very thick Grumbacher stand oil. After about 8 hours the pure tube
paint was dry to the touch as well as the swatche's of umber plus
linseed oil. The umber mixed 1 to 1 with thin stand was very slightly
tacky, while the 5 to 1 was dry. The umber plus thick stand is still
very much wet. This was not a scientific experiment as I only measured
dabs of paint and oil using a brush, but I have little doubt that if I
were more careful the results would be much the same (I have a third
brand of stand oil so I will do the test again but with greater care).
It is true that sun thick oil will dry more quickly since the process of
making it causes the oil to absorb oxygen. Sun thick oil is basically
partly pre-dried. But stand oil shouldn't be confused with sun thick
oil, the process of making it is quite different. Stand oil is
polymerized by heating, but no oxidation takes place, so it dries more
slowly.
It is possible that some manufacturers of stand oil add driers to it. I
have read a reference to this but I can't find it. This could be the
reason some people find stand oil dries at least as quickly as linseed
oil, though I would doubt manufacturers are adding enough driers to make
it a fast drying medium. It is interesting to me the two brands of
stand I tested are drying at such different rates.
What brand of stand are you using, and is it a very thick stand?
Richard
Degas5
>Stand oil dries more slowly than linseed oil. (If you don't agree
>_test_it_ before arguing with me.)
>
I beg to differ with you. Stand oil and sun thickened linseed dry faster than
Degas5
As an impartial observer to your reply to Mr. Eichers post regarding the use of
Liquin, I did find your response a bit authoritative, even though I don't think
you meant it to be. I work in a major art supply store and have conversations
every day with my customers about paints and mediums and brushes. What one
artist swears is the best another artist thinks not. I love Isabeys
Impressionist filbert brushes and can't say enough about how they handle and
yet my manager thinks little of them . She likes alky mediums and I hate them.
I think that there is a limited amount of glazing that can be done with an
alkyd medium before it starts to repel the glaze and beads up. I find that the
surface gets too enamel-like. But, since every artist uses his paint in an
indivual way, each stroke as different as anothers signature is different, I
cannot make an absolute statement, since it obviously works for you. I'm
curious if you ever tried to add alkyd medium to the traditional damar, stand,
turp medium?
Bonnie
Degas5
>
>On the other hand cobalt drier is not progressive, is also affordable, and
>totally manageable. You can experiment on the number of drops you wish to
>use.
>
Larry,
I love cobalt drier myself. I used it for many years, but stop using it for
health concerns. I used the Ralph Mayer recipe and used l5 drops (very
carefully counting for it's misuse can lead to problems) to a specified
amount(?) damar, standoil and turps. Now I'm using one of Mayers mediums which
include Venice turp. which is much stickier than the other one. It has a much
different appearance and not sure I like it. I think I miss my cobalt drier
medium.
Bonnie
R/L Davis
>
> Rich,
> As an impartial observer to your reply to Mr. Eichers post regarding the use of
> Liquin, I did find your response a bit authoritative, even though I don't think
> you meant it to be.
Bonnie,
When one replies to a question with what one thinks is a helpful answer,
one can easily sound like an authority. I don't mind being seen as an
authority on this subject, it's something I've been studying for way too
many years, I do know a bit about it. But, again, there was no attempt
to suggest I had the only answer. By suggesting that I use Liquin
because it doesn't "pile up" like other resins, does not imply that
someone else couldn't use it, or another resin, in another way. The
same with stand oil, if I choose to use it because it makes the paint
level, that does not exclude it being used because it adds tack.
Perhaps I got into a bit of trouble here, or was misunderstood, because
I also defended my use of Liquin by suggesting it makes a durable film
(it dries to a strong "leathery" film, where natural resins do not),
even though it has not withstood the test of time. Perhaps that was not
clear. If one wants to say that alkyds should not be used in fine
painting because they haven't stood the test of time, it is hard to
argue with that thinking, except to suggest they do form extraordinarily
strong films.
> I work in a major art supply store and have conversations
> every day with my customers about paints and mediums and brushes...
> I'm curious if you ever tried to add alkyd medium to the traditional damar, stand,
> turp medium?
> Bonnie
I don't use damar for the reasons already expressed, and because they
make the dried paint more likely to be disturbed by overworking. That
is the most important reason for my using Liquin, the dry paint film is
extremely durable and almost anything can be done (and fairly quickly)
in subsequent overpainting without disturbing the previous work.
And, since I don't use damar, I can use paint thinner as a thinner for
all my work. I find turpentine quite objectionable.
Richard
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/doghouse/richard/homepage.html
Charles Eicher
> Degas5 wrote:
> >
> > >Stand oil dries more slowly than linseed oil. (If you don't agree
> > >_test_it_ before arguing with me.)
> > >
> >
> > I beg to differ with you. Stand oil and sun thickened linseed dry
faster than
> > linseed oil. That is why it is used in glazing, in addition to it's
leveling
> > property. I've using it for years.
> > Bonnie
> Bonnie,
>
> After my post I did a quick test of paint swatch's of burnt umber,
> straight from the tube (I used it because it's a very fast dryer), mixed
> 1 to 1 and 5 to 1 with linseed oil, a thin generic brand of stand oil,
> and very thick Grumbacher stand oil. After about 8 hours the pure tube
> paint was dry to the touch as well as the swatche's of umber plus
> linseed oil. The umber mixed 1 to 1 with thin stand was very slightly
> tacky, while the 5 to 1 was dry. The umber plus thick stand is still
> very much wet. This was not a scientific experiment as I only measured
> dabs of paint and oil using a brush, but I have little doubt that if I
> were more careful the results would be much the same (I have a third
> brand of stand oil so I will do the test again but with greater care).
Hmm.. I'm not sure that this is a valid test. Burnt Umber is sometimes
added to pigments just for its drying effect. That kinda screws up any
tests of drying times. Try this test with something that dries really slow
like Cadmium Red.
FYI, I used to use plain old linseed oil, and my drying times were terribly
long, so I switched to Stand oil. Stand oil does dry much faster than
linseed oil.
Charles Eicher
In article <367B3D...@tallships.ca>, R/L Davis <dav...@tallships.ca> wrote:
> Charles Eicher wrote:
> Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed?:-) Since my reply was to a
> question about the addition of a medium to oil paint, and since I
> mention an "addition to oil paint", I would assume most folks would
> understand my statement above to mean using a medium as an
> _addition_to_an_oil_paint_, "oil paint" being a mixture of a
> sufficient amount of oil to bind a pigment. The problem with most oil
> paintings today is undoubtedly the use of far too much medium in the
> paint, especially since most tube oil paints are manufactured with too
> much oil in the first place
That distinction wasn't clear to me. Many beginners just don't realize that
tube paints contain any medium at all. In fact, when I first started oil
painting many many years ago, the biggest problem I had was that I used no
medium at all, just turps in varying amounts, to make the paint more or
less fluid as I needed. Unfortunately, this also did unfortunate things to
the glossiness of the paint. Some strokes would come out more matte, and
some more shiny. As I learned to use medium more effectively, I found that
I could actually manipulate this more easily with additional medium.
> > > With more and more research conservators are finding that there was
> > > almost no use of resins in paintings from the Renaissance, resins were
> > > used as a final varnish but not in the paint itself.
> >
> > Medium is not synonymous with varnish or resins.
>
> I am not saying it is. I am just suggesting that the addition of a
> resin to oil paint is unnecessary.
Not necessary, but useful on a practical level, at times. For example, the
variations in shininess that I mentioned, that could be easily taken care
of with a final varnish, but that doesn't give the effect I want, it levels
off everything completely.
>
> > > Having said that, I use Liquin in combination with stand oil in most of
> > > my work. I use the Liquin because it dries to a very tough film,
> > > because it add's very little thickness to the film when it dries (when
> > > equal quantities of Liquin, damar, linseed oil, stand oil, etc.are
> > > painted out on glass, the film of Liquin is much thinner after it has
> > > dried), and because it makes the paint dry faster.
> >
> > That is exactly the OPPOSITE of the purpose of mediums.
>
> No, the purpose of a medium is to give the paint a desired effect. Your
> desired effect is far different from mine.
The primary function of a medium is to bind the paint particles to the
surface. In oil painting, you need to bind them in a layer of oil that
allows light to penetrate, and reflect from the internal paint particles,
and perhaps even off the underpainting or raw canvas. Once the binder is
dry, if the proper type of medium is employed, the binder will eventually
polymerize into a permanent layer, which still allows light penetration.
The SECONDARY role of a binder is to manipulate the qualities of the paint
to give an effect.
> > The whole point of
> > an oil medium is to INCREASE the volume of the paint, and to create a
> > suspension of pigment particles in a transparent, thick layer so that light
> > can penetrate the paint and illuminate it from within. I'm not talking
> > about thick impasto, just normal painting.
>
> That's _your_ point of a medium. Making a paint thick and transparent
> is technically a poor practice. A very thin, transparent paint will
> give a much more luminous and brilliant colour than one sopping with
> resins and oils, resins and oils that will only yellow the effect in
> time and weaken the paint film.
My paint isn't thick and transparent, its thick and loaded with color. But
I do like to work in layers, so I like a LITTLE transparency. Well, this
stuff is hard to explain, you really have to see it. It is even possible
that if we saw each other's work, we'd find our techniques are quite
similar, but we just see them and describe them totally differently.
> > > ..I add stand oil to
> > > my medium because of it's very strong levelling property. A paint
> > > containing stand oil will dry to a level film rather than holding the
> > > texture of the brush strokes.
> >
> > Very interesting. I use medium of Stand oil precisely for the opposite
> > reason, it gives my brushstrokes volume and thickness. It also allows me to
> > paint alla prima, I can paint wet over wet without disturbing (much) the
> > thick underlayer.
>
> Oil paint _has_ volume, it does not need volume. Stand oil _will_ make
> oil paint more sticky (thick) but it will cause the paint to level out
> much more so than oils straight from the tube.
Again, I'm not talking about thick impasto, with brushtrokes that stand
right up off the canvas. I'm talking about the thickness of the layer,
compared to what I usually see people paint, with oil paint right out of
the tube, thinned with turps and using no medium.
Yes, a viscous medium may "level off" brushstrokes, but they will still be
thicker than a very fluid medium.
>
> > > Alkyd resins have not been around long enough to say for sure that they
> > > will stand the test of time (neither have acrylics), but they have
> > > proven themselves to be very good resins in industrial coatings. When
> > > an alkyd resin medium such as Liquin is painted out on a piece of glass
> > > along with samples of damar varnish or venice turpentine, the natural
> > > resins become extremely brittle after a very short period, forming a
> > > very fine
> > > pattern of all over cracking.
> >
> > Which is why these chemicals are not used by themselves, but in combination
> > with other mediums, which temper the mix and compensate for the flaws in
> > each single chemical. For example, my preferred medium is a mix of stand
> > oil, regular linseed, and damar varnish. The stand oil adds thickness and
> > volume, and aids drying.
>
> Stand oil dries more slowly than linseed oil. (If you don't agree
> _test_it_ before arguing with me.)
I have. Stand oil dries quicker than plain linseed oil. Test it on canvas,
not a plate of glass. Test it with a slow-drying pigment like Cad red.
> > The regular linseed adds flexibility and cuts the
> > stand oil a bit.
>
> Stand oil is flexible. Why do you want to "cut" the stand?
I'm talking about the flexibility of the wet paint on the brush. Stand oil
is too viscous, linseed oil is too slippery. Temper the stand oil with
linseed, and I'm happy with the viscosity. I don't like to manipulate the
viscosity much with solvents.
> > The Damar varnish helps improve adhesion, and helps the
> > paint flow from the brush to the canvas more easily.
>
> Damar does not improve adhesion. The opposite, if anything, is true.
Again, I'm not talking about adhesion on the canvas, I'm talking about the
flow of the paint from the paintbrush to the canvas. Without a little
damar, the paint just sorta sits there on your brush and doesn't go
anywhere unless you MAKE it go there. I like to have the paint perform a
little of the action on its own. If you get the right formula, damar will
help the paint flow rather nicely. Get it wrong, and you have to push the
paint onto the canvas. This is particularly important when painting wet
over wet.
> > > ..The alkyd resin, on the other hand stays
> > > as a very tough, leathery film for many years.
> >
> > I'm not sure that this is a desirable thing.
>
> You'd rather the film become brittle?
The medium eventually has to come to a final state of polymerization. I
don't think that delaying this final state of your painting is necessarily
a good thing. But then, I can only comment from my own paintings, which are
all oil paintings less than 25 years old, and even the old junk paintings I
have rolled up in tubes, when I look at them, the paint layers still seem
pretty flexible. In fact, that was the main reason oil paint became so
popular, it tends to stay flexible for many years (when properly applied)
so when the canvas expands and contracts under environmental conditions, it
doesn't stay immobile and peel off or crack, it stretches and shrinks along
with the canvas.
> > If you want to paint with Liquin, you might as well use acrylic paints,
> > because that's the sort of effects you will get.
>
> You are suggesting the use of Liquin in oil paints will handle in a
> similar way, and give
> similar effects to Acrylics?
Not necessarily the handling, but the final result. IMO, Liquin tends to
make oil paint look like acrylic painting, with all the plasticky surface
properties that are the reason I never use acrylics.
> > If you want to be a GOOD
> > oil painter, you will have to master the use of medium.
>
> I will stand by my work, and I certainly think I have mastered my
> medium.
Ah, now I see why you got pissed off. This comment is not directed at you,
it is directed at the general painting audience, especially any newbies to
oil painting (who tend to be the ones asking this question about media).
Even in this message, I am directing many comments at the general public.
Otherwise, I'd just send a direct response via email (and probably a rather
brief one).
> > Even if you never
> > add medium, just changing the amount of turpentine that you dilute raw
> > paint right out of the tube, you will still be manipulating the qualities
> > of the medium in the paint.
>
> Well, at least we can agree on one thing (though I'm not sure why you
> said that.)
See my initial remarks about the difficulties of controlling raw tube
paints with only a solvent and no additional medium.
Charles Eicher
take care of this one. Sorry if these threads are getting messy..
In article <367B78...@tallships.ca>, R/L Davis <dav...@tallships.ca> wrote:
> My first statement was concerning the over use of mediums of all sorts
> in oil painting. I believe that many beginning artists (it sounded to
> me like the person who started this thread was probably such a beginning
> artist) have the opinion that oil paint _need's_ an added medium, one
> just doesn't paint without it. I wanted to point out first that a
> medium is not a necessity.
If you ONLY paint with just paint and solvent, you are not availing
yourself of the full range of possibilities in oils. You MUST use
additional medium to get some effects. Yes, you can use the paint right out
of the tube, but to limit yourself to just that, it just won't get you very
far. Surely you'd agree to that, since you DO use a painting medium..
Oil paint has an astonishing range of effects, but many beginners just give
up because they have a hard time manipulating them. That is the source for
many of the medium discussions in r.a.f, so if I take issue with your
statements that appeared to propose painting with no added medium, then it
is only because I think that knowledge of manipulating the properties of
paint with media is crucial to getting the effects you desire.
Charles Eicher
wrote:
> In article <367B78...@tallships.ca>, dav...@tallships.ca says...
>
> >And your reply definitely did not bring out the best in me with my reply
> >to you. For some reason this news group seems to generate a great deal
> >of bicker rather than debate. Perhaps it's because, as artists, we all
> >tend to be wearing our hearts on our sleeves.
>
> Charles has always been one of the more authoritarian voices
> in this forum. Contentious and pretentious is how I think of him.
This reminds me of a story about Johannes Brahmms. He had a pretty riotous
sense of humor which did not go down well with a stuffy party he attended.
After noticing the change in mood, he decided to leave, and at the door, he
loudly announced to the party, "if there is anyone who I have NOT offended,
I apologize!"
yep, I am not well-liked by the Manis and other pretentious idiots in this
newsgroup. Thanks for clarifying which group YOU are in.
> He rarely replies to anything I post anymore.
I don't recall even READING anything you have written lately.
> ..I've been a contributor and sideline
> coach for many years now and haven't let contention and
> animosity get my goat...
Until now, I guess. Don't manufacture friction where it doesn't exist.
Don't take offense on behalf of other people. Do so, and you're just
meddling, and asking for trouble.
Degas5
>I don't use damar for the reasons already expressed, and because they
>make the dried paint more likely to be disturbed by overworking. That
>is the most important reason for my using Liquin, the dry paint film is
>extremely durable and almost anything can be done (and fairly quickly)
>
>in subsequent overpainting without disturbing the previous work.
>
>And, since I don't use damar, I can use paint thinner as a thinner for
>all my work. I find turpentine quite objectionable.
>
>Richard
>http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/doghouse/richard/homepage.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
Rich,
I've been painting with oils for many years and never had problems with turps
disturbing any of the underlayment, even though it is relatively more likely to
do so than thinner and if I worked the subsequent layer enough to disturb it
I'd be overworking the painting, which of course I wouldn't want to do. What
is it about turpentine that you find objectionable? I use Weber's Turpenoid
for all my needs.
Bonnie
Degas5
I'll have to round them up since I use any major brand. I see that I have WN
Stand Linseed Oil which is pretty well used up and some Grumbacher's Stand Oil
and neither have any siccatifs listed on the label, so I would assume that
they're pure. They would have to list additives, since most artists that use
stand oil mix it with other mediums and overuse of any medium is a problem.
Rich, I'm open minded when it comes to the use of painting mediums if they'll
suit my purposes. Lately, I've been thinking of trying Maroger. We sell them
already prepared. I think Sennelier makes it although it's not as pure as
Maroger prepared from scratch, which is supposedly very toxic. Do you have any
experience in using Maroger? I'd like to here some opinions before spending
$25 more or less on a tube.
Bonnie
R/L Davis
Bonnie,
Sorry, no experience with it at all.
Richard
R/L Davis
Bonnie,
That's not what I was saying. I use Liquin rather than _damar_ because
the subsequent paint film is much tougher. I have replaced turp with
thinner because turp is not needed if damar is not used (damar is
imperfectly dissolved by paint thinner) and because it's less stinky.
Two different thoughts.
Richard
Tom Hart
From: Degas5, deg...@aol.com
Date: 20 Dec 1998 15:58:12 GMT
In article <19981220105812...@ng01.aol.com> Degas5,
deg...@aol.com writes:
>I've been painting with oils for many years and never had problems with
turps
>disturbing any of the underlayment, even though it is relatively more
likely to
>do so than thinner and if I worked the subsequent layer enough to
disturb it
>I'd be overworking the painting, which of course I wouldn't want to do.
What
>is it about turpentine that you find objectionable? I use Weber's
Turpenoid
>for all my needs.
>Bonnie
Bonnie-
I'm quite sure about this (though I know someone will tell me if I'm
wrong): Chemically, Turpenoid is closer to mineral spirits than
turpentine, the sound of the name notwithstanding.
And I'd like to add that I'm finding this to be the most informative
thread this newsgroup has had in months. I thank Mr's Eicher and Davis
for the interesting discussion.
Tom
R/L Davis
> ...
> Ah, now I see why you got pissed off. This comment is not directed at you,
> it is directed at the general painting audience, especially any newbies to
> oil painting (who tend to be the ones asking this question about media).
> Even in this message, I am directing many comments at the general public.
> Otherwise, I'd just send a direct response via email (and probably a rather
> brief one).
Charles,
Your comment, "If you want to be a GOOD oil painter, you will have to
master the use of medium." at the end of your reply, was not what got me
pissed off. Your very first comment, "That is ridiculous.", followed in
quick succession by, "That is exactly the OPPOSITE of the purpose of
mediums. The whole point of an oil medium is to
INCREASE the volume of the paint..." (notice the unequivocal nature of
these statements), was what got me pissed off. The "good oil painter"
remark was just the final corker.
Richard
Degas5
>Chemically, Turpenoid is closer to mineral spirits than
>turpentine, the sound of the name notwithstanding.
Tom,
I appreciate you passing on that information. I will certainly look into it,
since I mix damar with Turpenoid whenever making a medium. I'm looking at the
jar now and it looks fine even though mineral spirits and damar don't mix.
The can is labeled "turpentine substitute" and is an "odorless, clear mixture
of petroleum distillates." I must compare that to turpentine and mineral
spirits tomorrow. Will get back to you on my findings. Thanks.
Bonnie
R/L Davis
>
> In article <367CAC...@tallships.ca>, R/L Davis <dav...@tallships.ca> wrote:
> > ...
> > After my post I did a quick test of paint swatch's of burnt umber,
> > straight from the tube (I used it because it's a very fast dryer), mixed
> > 1 to 1 and 5 to 1 with linseed oil, a thin generic brand of stand oil,
> > and very thick Grumbacher stand oil. After about 8 hours the pure tube
> > paint was dry to the touch as well as the swatche's of umber plus
> > linseed oil. The umber mixed 1 to 1 with thin stand was very slightly
> > tacky, while the 5 to 1 was dry. The umber plus thick stand is still
> > very much wet. This was not a scientific experiment as I only measured
> > dabs of paint and oil using a brush, but I have little doubt that if I
> > were more careful the results would be much the same (I have a third
> > brand of stand oil so I will do the test again but with greater care).
>
> Hmm.. I'm not sure that this is a valid test. Burnt Umber is sometimes
> added to pigments just for its drying effect. That kinda screws up any
> tests of drying times. Try this test with something that dries really slow
> like Cadmium Red.
>
> FYI, I used to use plain old linseed oil, and my drying times were terribly
> long, so I switched to Stand oil. Stand oil does dry much faster than
> linseed oil.
>
Charles,
Like you and probably many others, I had for many years been under the
impression that stand oil dried considerably faster than pure, refined
linseed oil. I'm not sure if that was from just "common knowledge"
(it's already partly polymerized so it should dry faster), or something
I learned in art school or just something I learned along the way.
More recently, when I painted out some swatches of different oils and
resins to test for film toughness and yellowing, I discovered something
unexpected. Stand oil seemed to dry much more slowly than refined
linseed oil. I went to my books and was surprised that I could find
only one small reference to the drying rate of stand oil, in Doerner,
which said, "Stand Oil is oil boiled with carbonic acid without the
additions of a drying medium. As a result of this special process,
these oils dry more slowly than raw linseed oil, because they have
absorbed no oxygen." I was surprised that there seemed to be no
references at all to the drying speed of stand oil in Mayer.
Being bit more scientific I just did the above test again, this time
using yellow ochre, a slower drying pigment. I mixed the tests more
carefully with a spatula, and mixed _two_ tests of each mix in case my
measuring was less than perfect. Along with a swatch of tube yellow
ochre (Grumbacher Finest) I painted out 4 swatches (2 each of 2 to 1 and
5 to 1) of the tube yellow ochre in pure refined linseed oil; as well as
in stand oil from Museum (a Canadian brand of very thin viscosity),
Talens, and Grumbacher; and in a "medium" of 1 part Talens stand and 1
part damar (5lb cut). The results were much the same as the previous
test.
After 24 hours the tube oil and all mix's of tube oil with refined
linseed oil were dry, while the 5 to 1 mix of damar and stand oil, as
well as the 5 to 1 mix of Museum stand oil were tacky. All the other
test swatch's were still wet.
After 32 hours all the 5 to 1 swatches were more or less dry, the 2 to 1
mix with Museum stand and the 2 to 1 mix with stand and damar were only
tacky, while the 2 to 1 mix of Grumbacher stand and Talens stand were
still sticky.
I am now fully convinced that stand oil does, in fact, dry slower than
refined linseed oil.
Richard
Neal Weiss
Liquin is a fine product. It does not make my paintings resemble acrylic
paintings (whatever that means).
I have seen many paintings, of which I loved the manipulation of the paint
and the range of effects, and have been suprised often by finding out that
paintings I had thought were done in oils were actually acrylic. Acrylics
have become very sophisticated and their product lines are very broad.
Indeed, acrylics, if anything, preserve the integrety of the pigments's
color more than an oil based system does ( I am about to switch to
acrylics for the next few months as an experiment, prompted by issues of
toxicity).
As far as Moroger medium goes, I use it very little these days, but there
was a period where I was curious about it and experimented.
The best Maroger medium I used was that I made myself based on the recipes
in Maroger's book: the result was the most interesting handling medium I
have ever used. It has a tendency to crack at times. I have used store
bought (David Davis) Maroger, but NEVER did it come even close to the
fresh homemade product--which transformed from a jellied state to a
liquified state and back with a great rapidity and allowed for amazing
handling properties. It would set up in a gel until it was agitated...say
touched with a brush, whereupon it would flow freely, then after the
movement ceased or agitation ended, it would set up again. This allowed
not only clean alla prima technique, it also allowed for great blending as
well as glazing. It was a pain in the ass to make (boiling oil and lead),
and it needed to be fresh, was tricky to get the right mixtures, but when
it was made correctly, fresh black oil added with fresh mastic, it was
amazing. A drawback is it is a rather dark medium and it dulls bright
colors. My conclusion was that it was too much a pain in the ass to make,
to dark, too unstable, and due to my needs and approach to painting, no
longer needed, so I haven't made a batch in many years. But it was fun to
paint with.
I have never found a medium that has satisfied me 100%. The search goes on
as one's conception and approach to painting changes.
--
N
To reach me, remove _xxx from my address.
Larry Seiler
> One should preferably not use a medium at all.
Well of course it depends upon your style of painting. If you paint thick
such as Impressionists, you use little to no medium. Yet....brilliance of
color may be effected, as brushstrokes literally are visible, invite
shadows from lights, and dull the color. For such reasons, some have used a
palette knife to eliminate the ridges of the brush to catch light and
create shadow in thick paint.
Yet....thin layers of paint with medium eliminate such concerns.
> almost no use of resins in paintings from the Renaissance, resins were
> used as a final varnish but not in the paint itself.
Certainly mediums were used. Painting in gray tones....chiaroscuro,
glazing colors over the top requiring a thinning to assure
transparency.....etc., created deep penetrating shadows....incredible jewel
like color, etc;
from- url: http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko
"Nut oil was recommended by Heraclius and Theophilus, Leonardo liked it
because it didn't yellow as much as linseed oil, Durer and Van Eyck used it
in the 1400's. ,,,,,Nut oil is pressed from the seeds of ripe but not
brown walnuts. It was also recommended by Vasari, Borghini, Lornazzo,
Armenini, Bisagno, Volpato, etc., as late as De Mayerne and even later."
Venice turpentine is a superior turpentine.....Rubins used it 2:1 in oil,
Van Dyck used it 1:1 as an intermediate varnish with egg and oils. Reynolds
used it with ammonia and wax"
> Having said that, I use Liquin in combination with stand oil in most of
> my work. I use the Liquin because it dries to a very tough film,
but....it dries in stages and progressively..... I use Cobalt
drier.....easy to control...affordable, and a complete thorough drying
agent.
I would recommend visiting the url I gave as it is quite exhaustive both in
the history of mediums as well as modern use, and the making of.
Degas5
>"Nut oil was recommended by Heraclius and Theophilus, Leonardo liked it
>because it didn't yellow as much as linseed oil, Durer and Van Eyck used it
>in the 1400's. ,,,,,Nut oil is pressed from the seeds of ripe but not
>brown walnuts. It was also recommended by Vasari, Borghini, Lornazzo,
>Armenini, Bisagno, Volpato, etc., as late as De Mayerne and even later."
>
>Venice turpentine is a superior turpentine.....Rubins used it 2:1 in oil,
>Van Dyck used it 1:1 as an intermediate varnish with egg and oils. Reynolds
>used it with ammonia and wax"
>
>
>> Having said that, I use Liquin in combination with stand oil in most of
>> my work. I use the Liquin because it dries to a very tough film,
>
>but....it dries in stages and progressively..... I use Cobalt
>drier.....easy to control...affordable, and a complete thorough drying
>agent.
>
>I would recommend visiting the url I gave as it is quite exhaustive both in
>the history of mediums as well as modern use, and the making of.
>
>Larry
>http://cwinc.net/larryseiler
>
>
>
>
>
>
Larry,
Of all the artists who have responded to this subject, I think that your
remarks regarding mediums are most like my own. And I do not wish to discredit
another's practice, since obviously alkyd mediums are very popular, but I find
they gave my paintings a "plastic" look. I love the traditional damar, stand
oil, turps and cobalt drier medium. Venice turpentine gives a brilliance I've
never seen in my paints.
Bonnie
Larry Seiler
> oil, turps and cobalt drier medium. Venice turpentine gives a brilliance
I've
> never seen in my paints.
> Bonnie
I was especially amazed by the suggestion that Rembrandt did not use
mediums, since I learned to paint in the early 70's copying his work.
He was scorned by the academies, and really was a contemporary artist of
his time. His practice of letting transparent glazes dry to a tacky stage
and then drag a clean brush across to create jagged ridges for pigment in
subsequent layers to be grabbed was scandalous in his day. Somethings
certainly he could not have done without medium. Some of his paintings had
nearly 30 layers of transparent paint...all mixing in the eye with existing
light to create unbelievable depth in his shadows and color.
The Impressionists being that first body of artists to advantage the
invention of lead tubes for transporting paint perhaps for the sake of
light travel and mobility carried as little with them as possible. That
capturing lighting of atmposphere conditions was an immediate and necessary
task.....who could concern oneself with mediums? Learning to suggest
detail with brushstrokes and unique color arrangements lent itself well to
the limited time available in painting out of doors.
That much of the early painting techniques are lost to many modern artists
is due to the large fact that mediums and methods were really a technical
science and was in fact routinely practiced, and learned by apprenticeship
only.
That Impressionists had broken from the academy....and had their works
shown in the "show of Rejects" means not only was it convenient for them to
not use the mediums....but much of the knowledge would have been carefully
withheld from them by the scorn of the then existing art academies! They
had little other options I would suppose but to decide mediums mattered
little...and credit to them for the system of painting they orchestrated!
peace.....
Larry
Larry Seiler
> > What I've read is that Liquin is a progressive drier...and in stages.
> Please elaborate on this topic...progressive drying. I'm not familiar
> with this term. Is this a chemical reference to something drying from
> the inside out versus from the outside in?
I believe it is a an "inside-out" problem....leading to eventual cracking.
I gave an authoritive source used by members of the World Arts Association
provided by Don Jusko of Hawaii....
I'd recommend going to this site.....you'll get history on color, mediums,
recipes, modern pigment and mediums, boards and canvases...etc; here's
that url-
http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko
> Of course when recommending cobalt drier, you should point out its
> extreme toxicity. Cobalt is a neurotoxin that can enter through the
> skin.
exactly right...and care must be taken. Because of that....I'm always
looking for something better. I just don't think Liquin is it. The
Japanese Driers are recommended to be stayed away from too which Don's site
will get into.
take care,
Donald A Jusko
Hi Larry,
A tracking program I have brought me to this discussion.
I read it over and have these comments taken fron my web site 'Painting
on Location' course. I hope they are not so long that they will be
boring.
On Liquin;
http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/33.htm
On the other topics;
Mastic and Turpentine dry all at once, mastic is the only medium to use
if you are going to paint over a semidried surface. Oil is a poor
sticking medium that dries from the top down. Don't paint over oil only
paint until it is completely dry, or it will chip off. The secret
ingredient in Mussini is mastic and wax. Turpentine adds to oxidation.
Siccatives are metal salts soluble in oil. They speed the absorption of
oxygen by the fatty oils, a two percent addition to paints is all that
can safely be used. Five drops per 2 1/2 bottle. The addition of damar
is a much safer practice, but that leaves you with two days drying time
instead of one.
Siccatives have been used for as long as mastic paints have been around,
in the B/C era. The first pigments, iron ore limonite, contained
manganese. Siccatives green contained a copper resinate. Sugar
of lead was an early drier, it's called lead acetate. Today we use a
cobalt oxide and limonite mix, to me the deep color purple is
objectionable, and I would rather have the clear sugar of lead or the
white calcinated stannum oxide, like the Egyptians. Even white lead
oxide could be heated and sponificated clear in oil. There were mediums
called malbutter and megilp, made of oil wax and lead in the past that
worked very well. They added a buttery character to the paint and were
very popular.
THE MAROGER MEDIUMS
For the past two hundred years or more, dedicated and informed artists
of the western world have recognized the superior oil painting
achievements of the European "old masters" of the 15th through 17th
centuries. Since Sir Joshua Reynolds (1723-1792), painters have lamented
the loss of the secrets that made possible the virtuoso brushwork,
luminous glazes, controlled drying, and permanence of works by Rubens,
Rembrandt, Velasquez, Tltlan, and so many other masters of the
Renaissance and Baroque periods.
The marvelous creations of these masters depended not only on talent and
rigorous training, but also on a tradition of highly developed craft
techniques which were passed from master to apprentice over many
generations. Chief among these studio secrets were the oils and mediums
mixed with their colors. From ancient times linseed oil had been
rejected as a painting medium because it dryed slowly, muddled colors,
darkened, and cracked. The much acclaimed oil painting discovered by Jan
Van Eyck
(1382-1441 ), and the vastly improved mediums of his sucessors, were far
more sophisticated substances. These superb mediums are again available
to us because of the devoted life work of Jacques Maroger (1884-1962).
(pronounced Mar-o-zhay).
In 1907 Maroger began studies with Louls Anquetin (1861-1942). Called
the French 'Mlchelangelo' by his Impressionist compatriots, Anquetin
sought the painting power of the old masters through a remarkable
mastery of drawing, but his skills were stymied by the then current oil
painting materials.
By 1920 Maroger had turned the search toward the painting materials
themselves. His growing expertise led him to a post as professor and
Technical Director of Restoration at the Louve. He was elected president
of the Society of Restorers of France, and Knight of the Legion of Honor
for his researches. In 1948 his discoveries were published in 'The
Secret Formulas and Techniques of the Old Masters'. and he continued to
enlarge his discoveries until his death.
"My own involvement with Maroger's teaching began at age nine as a
drawing student of Anne Didusch Schuler, Maroger's first assistant and a
master painter in her own right. As college pupil and then protégée of
Maroger from 1950 until 1962 I participated in many trials of his
reconstructed old master mediums and materials. My notes and experience
with Maroger are the basis of the mediums I have been making for myself
and my students since the early fifties I guarantee that they are
authentic and made of top quality ingredients." Stephen Kaldor 1998.
BLACK OIL is made of purified raw linseed oil cooked with lead. It may
be used as a medium, a diluent in the palette cup, to grind colors from
dry pigments, and it is the basis of other mediums.
MASTIC VARNISH is made of pure gum spirits of turpentine and mastic
resin tears. It can be added to Black Oil for an instant Flemish type
medium. Diluted slightly with turpentine, it may be used as a final
picture varnish, after the oil painting has completely dried.
ITALIAN FORMULA MEDIUM combines black oil with beeswax for a transparent
paste which dries to a soft semi-gloss luster and give an opulent body
to impastos.
FLEMISH FORMULA MEDIUM combines black oil with mastic tears, pure gum
spirits of turpentine, and beeswax for a transparent gel medium. Colors
have more intensely and a rich gloss finish.
E'TUDE FORMULA MEDIUM is a sketching or student medium which is made
like the italian Formula but of less refined oil and is slightly faster
drying.
All of the formulas have similarly agreeable handling qualities and may
be Intermixed wet, but alternate layering is not recommended.
HOW TO USE THE MAROGER MEDIUMS
1. The GROUND, or surface to be painted, whether the traditional white
lead in linseed oil, acrylic gesso, or some other, should be permanent,
nonabsorbent, and have sufficient "tooth", i.e. not slippery. A glaze of
Maroger Medium and color over a white ground makes a toned surface that
is very compatible for painting when dry.
2. Oil COLORS are ideally made of dry pigments freshly ground in Black
Oil If TUBE OIL COLORS are used, it is recommended that one part medium
be added to each four parts of color. The exception is LEAD (FLAKE)
WHITE which may be ground in raw linseed oil.
3. GLAZES are mostly medium tinted with a small amount of transparent
color. Some medium should be available on the palette, or in the cup, to
add to colors for the feel and relative transparency the artist
desires.
4. A meager COAT OF MEDIUM, not too slippery, should be wiped on the
area to be painted, unless a dry scumble is desired.
______________________________________________________________________
TECHNIQUE, De Mayerne, Rubens physician, wrote "Pictoria, Sculpturia et
quae Subalternarum Artium" and said this about Rubins. He used a white
gypsum and glue ground and a light gray egg tempera imprimatura, he
mixed Venetian turpentine, sun-thickened walnut oil and mastic as a
medium, 3:2:1, and enough siccitive to dry in a day. He begin by
painting the shadows lightly without a hint of added white. Lights have
body, lay each tone in it's place one after the other before lightly
mixing them with the brush. Paint the highlights white, place next to
them yellow, then red, and use a darker red to carry them over to the
shadows.
Rembrandt, painted on a light umber brown ground and under modeled with
white, his medium was resin, Venetian turpentine, thick oils and mastic.
Naples yellow with it's high density covering power was an important
color with Rembrandt as with Rubins, mixed with Smalt he made his
greens. De Wild said, it was another lead color, Massicot. Rembrandt had
a flair for form definition, sharpening it or losing it to the
background.
Stand oil is linseed oil boiled with carbonic acid, it dries very
slowly, doesn't yellow, and is very sticky to paint with. Turpentine
must be constantly be added to keep it flowing, linseed oil will keep it
from being sticky, it was known of and used early in the 15th century.
It can't be used alone with a drier, because it will separate the paint
and form a skin that looks like a sponge print.
Damar and mastic are soft resins, damar makes the best picture varnish,
it keeps oils from wrinkling and forming a skin, and is insoluble in
mineral spirits. Damar added to oil paints permit painting layers in
rapid succession, oil paint WITHOUT damar must be completely dry before
a second coat is applied, or it may chip off,
TURPENTINE Thins; oil, alkali oil, resin, balsam and wax, don't use
petroleum thinner or paraffin wax for painting. Oil of turpentine
absorbs oxygen while drying, mineral spirts only evaporate, and
petroleum won't dissolve damar. Damar is our friend, it doesn't turn
yellow, we need it. We don't need petroleum in our paint, don't be
fooled into using it.
Turpentine is the best thinner for oil paints, I don't agree with
Mayer's Handbook saying that petroleum distilled paint thinner works for
fine artwork.
Doerner explained in his 1934 book,
The Materials of the Artist, how there unnatural with paints that absorb
oxygen while drying, being refined from a nondrying petroleum oil, they
only evaporate, without absorbing oxygen. Petroleum thinners are good
only for cleaning brushes of the trade, not the expensive brushes we use
as artists. Petroleum thinner will not dissolve the valuable damar
varnish either, as turpentine does so well.
The essential oil of turpentine, is a volatile plant oil, steam
distilled without pressure. Today's turpentine is very pure, there is no
reason to buy double rectified artist's turpentine in the small bottles,
they all dry without residue. French turpentine from the maritime pine
is best.
Alkyd resins are polyhydric alcohol with polybasic acid. These alkyd
modified resins dry faster then natural oils, turpentine based "Liquin"
is an alkyd resin. They mix well with normal oil paints and speed
drying.
That's it. Thanks again Larry for bringing me into the discussion.
Happy New Year
--
Aloha from Maui,
Don Jusko
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therefore lacking in a dependable foundation." Max Doerner 1931
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