Good art schools?
Charles Eicher
(mdeli) wrote:
> Many people have asked me for some suggestions about finding a
> school.
>
> When it comes to drawing which is the foundation of all that follows
> make sure the teacher can draw. Look at his work. If it is no better
> or worse than that of the students he's definitely a loser. Also look
> at the work of advanced students, if its no better than that of
> earlier students the place is dreamland.
>
> - Don't attend a school without first seeing the work of its students.
That's a really good way to judge the quality of the art program that those
students took in HIGH SCHOOL. But to judge an entire program on the basis
of 18-21 year old students is a really stupid idea. You'd be better off
looking at the works of the TEACHERS, and decide if their work is of
interest to you. On the other hand, one of the artists I studied under, I
think his work really sucks but he constantly challenged me to work harder,
and knew just what I needed to progress, it was one of the best classes I
ever took.
> Ask yourself whether they can do something that you can't do. Then ask
> yourself whether they can do something you want to do. Make sure you
> feel that the student work is superior to yours. If you feel you can
> do better work than the teacher or his students, forget it.
While I am sure that Mani constantly felt superior to the teachers and
students he encountered (and he still does) it would be inadvisable to take
advice based on mani's neurotic superiority complex.
> --If your teacher is extremely nice, utterly charming and glamorous,
> always remember that this is no criterion for judgment.
But its all part of the big picture. Think about it, would you rather study
under someone pleasant, or someone like mani?
> ..Never blindly
> imitate a teacher to gain approval. If good grades are dependent on
> this, as is often the case, get out of there fast. Fooling the
> teacher amounts to fooling yourself.
You're dreaming again. Never happens. All the teachers I know conspicuously
avoid showing their work to students, to prevent students from trying to
emulate their work. Most of this problem is not cause by the teachers, but
by the students who are always trying any angle to suck up to the teachers.
> ..Good grades or certificates from
> prestigious art schools will not help you in the long run. Unless you
> have spectacular connections, you will be judged solely by the quality
> of your work.
I'll have to see what my friends who graduated from prestigious schools
like CalArts and Parsons have to say about that. But it will be rather
difficult, they're so busy with exhibits at prestigious galleries around
the world, its hard to get them to return my phone calls.
> -Always keep an eye on what others are doing; other students can often
> teach you more than the instructors.
Gee, whenever I want to learn something, I always rush right out to find
someone inexperienced, particularly when there are experts with decades of
experience available.
> -Try to get work in your field if you can, even while attending
> school. Even if it is lowly work you will most likely learn much about
> your profession which you can't get in school. Cash in on your
> abilities as early as you can.
Yep, cashing in is what its all about. That's why there are hordes of art
students are making so much money as artist's apprentices, where they learn
their trade firsthand. Oh, oops, I forgot, this isn't the 16th century
anymore.
> -Leave school as soon as you feel that you have acquired the knowledge
> you needed to become professional or find that you aren't improving
> any more. Remember that except for inmates, who are committed to these
> institutions for life, school is a temporary state of affairs.
Remember that when you are a young student, when you are most certain of
your abilities, that is when you are most likely to be WRONG about your
approach. Undergraduate art students are not expected to "find their voice"
nor to even have more than a slight clue about what they want to work on in
the future. That is what Graduate School is for. Undergrad studes are not
about finding the answers, its about discovering the good questions..
questions that you will pursue for many years.
If you ARE certain that you've "acquired the knowledge you needed," that is
exactly the point when you better figure out where you went wrong. NOBODY
will EVERY have all the knowledge they will need.
> Remember, the more incompetent artists there are, the more work and
> better living for the competent ones.
Remember the "90% rule," which states that "90% of everything is crap."
But you're an exception, mani, 100% of everything you say is crap.
----------------
Charles Eicher
cei...@inav.net
----------------
mdeli
school.
When it comes to drawing which is the foundation of all that follows
make sure the teacher can draw. Look at his work. If it is no better
or worse than that of the students he's definitely a loser. Also look
at the work of advanced students, if its no better than that of
earlier students the place is dreamland.
- Don't attend a school without first seeing the work of its students.
Ask yourself whether they can do something that you can't do. Then ask
yourself whether they can do something you want to do. Make sure you
feel that the student work is superior to yours. If you feel you can
do better work than the teacher or his students, forget it.
--If your teacher is extremely nice, utterly charming and glamorous,
always remember that this is no criterion for judgment. Never blindly
imitate a teacher to gain approval. If good grades are dependent on
this, as is often the case, get out of there fast. Fooling the
teacher amounts to fooling yourself. Good grades or certificates from
prestigious art schools will not help you in the long run. Unless you
have spectacular connections, you will be judged solely by the quality
of your work.
-Always keep an eye on what others are doing; other students can often
teach you more than the instructors.
-Try to get work in your field if you can, even while attending
school. Even if it is lowly work you will most likely learn much about
your profession which you can't get in school. Cash in on your
abilities as early as you can.
-Leave school as soon as you feel that you have acquired the knowledge
you needed to become professional or find that you aren't improving
any more. Remember that except for inmates, who are committed to these
institutions for life, school is a temporary state of affairs.
Remember, the more incompetent artists there are, the more work and
better living for the competent ones.
--
Mani DeLi
...no skill no art
Check out my webpage (updated Sept.13 - new pictures) to see some of my work and a Skeptical View of Modern Art at: http://www.interlog.com/~hugod
Marilyn
except I would emphasize that potential
students check the Faculty exhibitions
as well as the student exhibitions.
My preference is to learn from someone
whose work I admire.
M.
if...@my-dejanews.com
> school.
> Remember, the more incompetent artists there are,>
READ: TRULY DEVOTED TO ART
>the more work and
> better living for the competent ones.> READ: FOR TRULY DEVOTED TO MONEY
Blind leading the blind
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mdeli
This is one of Eicher more stupid messages. Worth a read to the
finish.
>(mdeli) wrote:
>
>> Many people have asked me for some suggestions about finding a
>> school.
>>
>> When it comes to drawing which is the foundation of all that follows
>> make sure the teacher can draw. Look at his work. If it is no better
>> or worse than that of the students he's definitely a loser. Also look
>> at the work of advanced students, if its no better than that of
>> earlier students the place is dreamland.
>>
>> - Don't attend a school without first seeing the work of its students.
>
>That's a really good way to judge the quality of the art program that those
>students took in HIGH SCHOOL. But to judge an entire program on the basis
>of 18-21 year old students is a really stupid idea.
So, your idea is not to look at the work of students. Sounds pretty
stupid.
> You'd be better off
>looking at the works of the TEACHERS, and decide if their work is of
>interest to you.
As if I didn't say that.
> On the other hand, one of the artists I studied under, I
>think his work really sucks but he constantly challenged me to work harder,
>and knew just what I needed to progress, it was one of the best classes I
>ever took.
He didn't teach you anything just challenged you. If you end up being
incompetent the whole world will challenge you.I guess Eicher is
learning all the time.
>> Ask yourself whether they can do something that you can't do. Then ask
>> yourself whether they can do something you want to do. Make sure you
>> feel that the student work is superior to yours. If you feel you can
>> do better work than the teacher or his students, forget it.
>
>While I am sure that Mani constantly felt superior to the teachers and
>students he encountered (and he still does) it would be inadvisable to take
>advice based on mani's neurotic superiority complex.
As usual Eicher's reading comprehension fails him and he goes off into
psycho-babble.
>> --If your teacher is extremely nice, utterly charming and glamorous,
>> always remember that this is no criterion for judgment.
>
>But its all part of the big picture. Think about it, would you rather study
>under someone pleasant, or someone like mani?
If your teacher is nice and has nothing to teach, its got nothing to
do with the "Big picture," or any of your other silly aphorisms.
Yes, study with Eicher our minister of misinformation who claims to be
nice.
>
>> ..Never blindly
>> imitate a teacher to gain approval. If good grades are dependent on
>> this, as is often the case, get out of there fast. Fooling the
>> teacher amounts to fooling yourself.
>
>You're dreaming again. Never happens.
Well perhaps some input from others here might contradict you. I for
one.
> All the teachers I know conspicuously
>avoid showing their work to students, to prevent students from trying to
>emulate their work. Most of this problem is not cause by the teachers, but
>by the students who are always trying any angle to suck up to the teachers.
You just contradicted yourself and confirmed my point.
>> ..Good grades or certificates from
>> prestigious art schools will not help you in the long run. Unless you
>> have spectacular connections, you will be judged solely by the quality
>> of your work.
>
>I'll have to see what my friends who graduated from prestigious schools
>like CalArts and Parsons have to say about that. But it will be rather
>difficult, they're so busy with exhibits at prestigious galleries around
>the world, its hard to get them to return my phone calls.
Perhaps they just don't want to hear from a failure like you.
>> -Always keep an eye on what others are doing; other students can often
>> teach you more than the instructors.
>
>Gee, whenever I want to learn something, I always rush right out to find
>someone inexperienced, particularly when there are experts with decades of
>experience available.
>
>> -Try to get work in your field if you can, even while attending
>> school. Even if it is lowly work you will most likely learn much about
>> your profession which you can't get in school. Cash in on your
>> abilities as early as you can.
>
>Yep, cashing in is what its all about.
Eicher never cashed in. He's got a degree to prove it.
>That's why there are hordes of art
>students are making so much money as artist's apprentices, where they learn
>their trade firsthand. Oh, oops, I forgot, this isn't the 16th century
>anymore.
I presume you were a master right from the beginning.
.
>> -Leave school as soon as you feel that you have acquired the knowledge
>> you needed to become professional or find that you aren't improving
>> any more. Remember that except for inmates, who are committed to these
>> institutions for life, school is a temporary state of affairs.
>
>Remember that when you are a young student, when you are most certain of
>your abilities, that is when you are most likely to be WRONG about your
>approach.Undergraduate art students are not expected to "find their voice"
>nor to even have more than a slight clue about what they want to work on in
>the future.
If you do what is EXPECTED in most art schools you' might just end up
like Eicher.
> That is what Graduate School is for. Undergrad studes are not
>about finding the answers, its about discovering the good questions..
>questions that you will pursue for many years.
>If you ARE certain that you've "acquired the knowledge you needed," that is
>exactly the point when you better figure out where you went wrong. NOBODY
>will EVERY have all the knowledge they will need.
>
The usual aphorisms. Eicher didn't "find Answers" until in grad
school. Then one day he looked under the bed. He found nothing there
either.
>> Remember, the more incompetent artists there are, the more work and
>> better living for the competent ones.
>Remember the "90% rule," which states that "90% of everything is crap."
I suspect that is true for Modern Academic teaching. Eicher stuck it
out and now produces what he learned.
>But you're an exception, mani, 100% of everything you say is crap.
Eicher prides himself with aphorisms that are 100% correct 2% of the
time.
LLoturco
>Remember that when you are a young student, when you are most certain of
>your abilities, that is when you are most likely to be WRONG about your
>nor to even have more than a slight clue about what they want to work on in
>about finding the answers, its about discovering the good questions..
>questions that you will pursue for many years.
>If you ARE certain that you've "acquired the knowledge you needed," that is
>exactly the point when you better figure out where you went wrong. NOBODY
>will EVERY have all the knowledge they will need.
>
I could not agree with you more. Undergrad taught me the skills. It gave me a
direction in understanding mediums. It encouraged me to explore my own
vocabulary. For years afterwards I exercised what I had learned, in my
professional work as well as my personal work. But not until grad school did I
find my voice. More confident with my skills,I found my way to express what I
wanted to say and how. Would I have found it without school...I will never
know. But the journey was well worth every cent. Will I ever do anything with
the degree I earned? Probably not, but the aim was to find my voice, and the
environment gave me the ability to do just that. And had set me on a new road
of exploration. The degree was just a small bonus.
-Laura