acrylics?
ADan327830
(without seriously diluting the paint?) Are certain brands able to stay open
longer?
I am just a hobbyist (although lately have been getting some offers on my work
through acquaintances but that's just happy luck) and I live in a one bedroom
apartment so until I get someplace a bit larger, I don't want to deal with the
fumes associated with oils. And even though I love acrylics...the fact that
they dry so quickly, even using my mediums, drives me nuts since blending is a
difficult process.
Any suggestions?
Also, has anyone ever used oil sticks or water soluble oils? Are they less
noxious than traditional oils? I'd also be concerned with disposal... I've
noticed that even in the case of cadmium acrylics, they're listed with a
cautionary label. Up until now I guess I haven't used any (mine are "hues") but
if I have the urge to buy anything that is considered toxic, where can I look
up precautions?
Please email me at angie...@yahoo.com
Angie
I'm sick of spam... so write to me at angie...@yahoo.com
http://www.cyberu4ia.com --- video chat software-affiliate program $$$$
keith o'connor
My wife could not stand the smell of standard oil paint so I went acrylic
years ago. She has no problem with water mixable oils. You may find the open
time a few days longer than traditional oils because of slower drying time.
In my opinion they are well worth trying.
--
take care: Keith
The eye should not be lead where there is nothing to see.
Robert Henri - The Art Spirit
"ADan327830" <adan3...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20030608134044...@mb-m23.aol.com...
ADan327830
>My wife could not stand the smell of standard oil paint so I went acrylic
>years ago. She has no problem with water mixable oils.
cool...
that's just the sort of information I need.
Is there a spot where I can get more information on how water soluble oils
compare? I am probably like your wife.. I am highly sensitive to all smells...
maybe I can run down to my local art store and sniff some water solubles :)
Oliver Gili
"ADan327830" <adan3...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20030608134044...@mb-m23.aol.com...
> (without seriously diluting the paint?) Are certain brands able to stay
open
> longer?
>
> I am just a hobbyist (although lately have been getting some offers on my
work
> through acquaintances but that's just happy luck) and I live in a one
bedroom
> apartment so until I get someplace a bit larger, I don't want to deal with
the
> fumes associated with oils. And even though I love acrylics...the fact
that
> they dry so quickly, even using my mediums, drives me nuts since blending
is a
> difficult process.
>
> Any suggestions?
You can retard the drying process by mixing in a smigeon of washing up
liquid into the acrylic...
Oliver
ADan327830
>You can retard the drying process by mixing in a smigeon of washing up
>liquid into the acrylic...
>
really? how long on average?
I guess my biggest question is... are there certain brands of acrylic paints,
combined with specific mediums, that would allow it to stay open for a day/24
hour period?
ADan327830
>You can retard the drying process by mixing in a smigeon of washing up
>liquid into the acrylic...
>
>Oliver
>
One other question... I have English relatives and I remember them telling me
that their washing up liquid wasn't as strong (not a criticism, just an
observation) as American liquid. Should I water it down at all?
Wynne Ean-Hand
adan3...@aol.comnospam says...
>
>>
>>You can retard the drying process by mixing in a smigeon of washing up
>>liquid into the acrylic...
>>
>>Oliver
I have mentioned on NUMEROUS occasions in this
forum that the best non-art material retarder for acrylic
is plain old auto anti-freeze, otherwise known
as ethylene glycol. It's what I use to keep my
acrylics on the palette workable for a full
working session. And yes, even the next day
if the lump on the palette is sufficiently
large to form a skin so that there is still
fluid paint under the skin. For those who abhor
the thought of using something as toxic as
anti-freeze, you can purchase the equivalent
formula used in MOST cosmetics as a moisturizer,
otherwise known as propylene glycol.
Hadley
It's not the oils that are toxic, but the turpentine. There's no way
to avoid the toxic fumes of turpentine, I'm afraid. I would stick to
acrylics if you're worried about your health. You're the first person
I've ever encountered who actually complained about oils drying too
quickly! Usually it's the other way around, some oils NEVER dry.
Regards,
Hadley
Andrew D
adan3...@aol.comnospam (ADan327830) wrote:
>>
>>My wife could not stand the smell of standard oil paint so I went acrylic
>>years ago. She has no problem with water mixable oils.
>
>cool...
>
>that's just the sort of information I need.
>
>Is there a spot where I can get more information on how water soluble oils
>compare? I am probably like your wife.. I am highly sensitive to all smells...
>maybe I can run down to my local art store and sniff some water solubles :)
>Angie
I found them to smell a little like cooking oil (Some/all use a modified
safflower oil). I enjoyed using them - after switching from acrylic - and
produced some good work. There seems to be some suggestion that many
(all?) aren't professional quality and may use fillers. I bought based on
the permanence rating.
If you've used traditional oils for a reasonable length of time, you may
find the water-soluble variety a little stiff but switching from acrylics,
they're a dream. There is a range of water-soluble mediums to improve
workability.
There is a book on the market dedicated to water-soluble oils and it
contains a fair bit of info about brands, colours etc plus "how-to's" and
gallery examples from professional artists. Sorry, I don't know the exact
title.
Andy D.
"I'm a great speller - but a hopless tpyist!"
Andrew D
vegas_...@hotmail.com (Hadley) wrote:
[snip]
>It's not the oils that are toxic, but the turpentine.
And the pigments - but that applies to all paints and even pastels.
> There's no way
>to avoid the toxic fumes of turpentine, I'm afraid.
I use oils with no turps or medium. I still find the smell a little
irritating. Linseed oil may not be toxic, but it might be a mild allergen?
I use white spirits - kept in the garage - to wash my brushes. I know one
artist who uses baby oil for clean up so never goes near turps or its
substitutes.
ADan327830
>title.
>
>Andy D.
>
thank you for the help... I will do a search and if I find the title... will
post it.
Mike Stengl
You're the first person
> I've ever encountered who actually complained about oils drying too
> quickly! Usually it's the other way around, some oils NEVER dry.
>
> Regards,
> Hadley
I began this group because MY oil paints were drying too quickly. I
guess I DON'T remember you helping me in my darkest hour. Well, I'm
all better now, I just paint faster.
Anastasia
> In article <1eb6d2bc.03061...@posting.google.com>,
> vegas_...@hotmail.com (Hadley) wrote:
>
> [snip]
> >It's not the oils that are toxic, but the turpentine.
>
> And the pigments - but that applies to all paints and even pastels.
>
> > There's no way
> >to avoid the toxic fumes of turpentine, I'm afraid.
>
> I use oils with no turps or medium. I still find the smell a little
> irritating. Linseed oil may not be toxic, but it might be a mild allergen?
Andrew D, you're full of shyte. There's no way you can use oils
without turpentine. Some people add linseed oil for a different
consistency and texture, but it's usually *added* to turpentine. Then
there are freaks like Nikolaus Maack or Seagull who likes to use
antifreeze (JE-SUS! Antifreeze!) but overall, most artists have a can
of turpentine if they can paint. I gather you read about how-to-paint
from Mani Deli, who doesn't paint, but is a pretend-art-critic.
> I use white spirits - kept in the garage - to wash my brushes. I know one
> artist who uses baby oil for clean up so never goes near turps or its
> substitutes.
Baby oil is impossible to use for clean-up. Tiny areas on the skin
might be alright, as long as you keep rubbing for several minutes to
get the paint off, but it is not nearly as effective as turpentine on
brushes. Unless you want to spend several hours cleaning your brushes
with baby oil (and even then, they *won't* be clean, but do try it on
your own) there is no way to avoid using turpentine.
Regards,
Hadley
Anastasia
Well most painters I know like to paint layers and layers over an
already existing layer. However, from what you say, it leads me to
believe that you have a tendency to paint thinly and then in a futile
attempt, mix colours after it had already dried, or had taken too long
to make a decision on the next colour to contrast?
If oil paints dry too quickly (never happened to me, BTW, I was always
sitting on my ass, smoking ciggies and calling up my girlfriend on the
phone while waiting for the paint to dry, or I just feel asleep until
the next day) my rule is to apply another layer or to gently rub out
the previous layer with turpentine. I suppose though that this depends
on your subject.
Regards,
Hadley
Paul Mesken
wrote:
>right@the_end.of.my_tether (Andrew D) wrote in message news:<right-11060...@i204-147.nv.iinet.net.au>...
>> In article <1eb6d2bc.03061...@posting.google.com>,
>> vegas_...@hotmail.com (Hadley) wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>> >It's not the oils that are toxic, but the turpentine.
>>
>> And the pigments - but that applies to all paints and even pastels.
>>
>> > There's no way
>> >to avoid the toxic fumes of turpentine, I'm afraid.
>>
>> I use oils with no turps or medium. I still find the smell a little
>> irritating. Linseed oil may not be toxic, but it might be a mild allergen?
>
>Andrew D, you're full of shyte. There's no way you can use oils
>without turpentine.
What a complete nonsenses, a lot of painters advise against turps
because they slap the colors dead. I've stopped using turps eons ago.
To speed up drying one can use cobalt drier or black oil but this is
not necessary if drying time is of no concern. To make the paint flow
better one can use a little bit of stand oil.
Ofcourse the ones who want to make an oil painting look like a water
color need lots of turps but they've chosen the wrong medium.
>Baby oil is impossible to use for clean-up. Tiny areas on the skin
>might be alright, as long as you keep rubbing for several minutes to
>get the paint off, but it is not nearly as effective as turpentine on
>brushes. Unless you want to spend several hours cleaning your brushes
>with baby oil (and even then, they *won't* be clean, but do try it on
>your own) there is no way to avoid using turpentine.
Again, sheer and utter nonsense. A lot of painters use ordinary soap.
Just wipe off the paint with cloth or something, wet the brush with
luke warm water, rub it in the palm of the hand with some soap, repeat
until the foam stays white then rinse them out with luke warm water.
This is *standard* procedure. Drowning brushes in turps might get
paint into the ferrule.
Wynne Ean-Hand
vegas_...@hotmail.com says...
>It's not the oils that are toxic, but the turpentine. There's no way
>to avoid the toxic fumes of turpentine, I'm afraid.
I have to wonder. No disagreement over the
allergic problems with turps, but I wonder
if some people aren't also allergic to
linseed oil, or the other oils commonly
used in oil paint formulas? I have often
used linseed oil in non-art applications
as both a wood preservative and water resist.
It certainly seems to me that it could be
irritating to some sensitive people.
Wynne Ean-Hand
Anas...@ivebeenframed.com says...
>Andrew D, you're full of shyte. There's no way you can use oils
>without turpentine.
If 'shyte' is the same as 'shit,' then I fear
we are ALL of us plagued with an overabundance
of it, YOU included.
As for me, I too use ONLY mineral spirits
combined with linseed oil as my medium and
have been using that formula for the past
30+ years!!! The ONE AND ONLY use I have for
turpentine is for melting the damar crystals
that I buy for making my own varnish.
Paul Mesken
wrote:
>In article <fdaf1b0d.03061...@posting.google.com>,
>Anas...@ivebeenframed.com says...
>
>>Andrew D, you're full of shyte. There's no way you can use oils
>>without turpentine.
>
>If 'shyte' is the same as 'shit,' then I fear
>we are ALL of us plagued with an overabundance
>of it, YOU included.
Us dutch use "saw dust" for this expression. "Shit for brains"
translates to "Zaagsel in de kop" (saw dust in the head). We do use
"shit" when someone doesn't use his eyes : "stront in de ogen" (shit
in the eyes).
It's interesting to see the english speaking part of the population
uses a lot of shit, piss and asses (perhaps a victorian thing). The
dutch go easy on that department but make up with the disease
department, for instance "Krijg de tyfus, kankerlijer" (catch typhus,
cancer sufferer). Both however believe beer can taste like piss (a
special place is reserved for "uilezeik" which is owl piss) and
liberal use of genitals is also widely supported. We even made verbs
of them : "lullen" (to dick) is talking nonsense and "kutten" (to
cunt) is doing something extremely clumsily (although its use is less
common than "lullen").
Amazing isn't it? :-)
G*rd*n
> On 11 Jun 2003 07:30:54 -0600, ha...@dontemailme.com (Wynne Ean-Hand)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <fdaf1b0d.03061...@posting.google.com>,
> >Anas...@ivebeenframed.com says...
> >
> >>Andrew D, you're full of shyte. There's no way you can use oils
> >>without turpentine.
> >
> >If 'shyte' is the same as 'shit,' then I fear
> >we are ALL of us plagued with an overabundance
> >of it, YOU included.
>
> Us dutch use "saw dust" for this expression. "Shit for brains"
> translates to "Zaagsel in de kop" (saw dust in the head). We do use
> "shit" when someone doesn't use his eyes : "stront in de ogen" (shit
> in the eyes).
What about the English "poppycock"? It's my understanding
that this expression comes from Dutch _pappe kaak_, "soft
shit".
> It's interesting to see the english speaking part of the population
> uses a lot of shit, piss and asses (perhaps a victorian thing). The
> dutch go easy on that department but make up with the disease
> department, for instance "Krijg de tyfus, kankerlijer" (catch typhus,
> cancer sufferer). Both however believe beer can taste like piss (a
> special place is reserved for "uilezeik" which is owl piss) and
> liberal use of genitals is also widely supported. We even made verbs
> of them : "lullen" (to dick) is talking nonsense and "kutten" (to
> cunt) is doing something extremely clumsily (although its use is less
> common than "lullen").
>
> Amazing isn't it? :-)
I've been told that the worst insult you can utter to a
Québecois is _calice_ (chalice). I've been afraid to
experiment with it, however.
--
(<><>) /*/
}"{ G*rd*n }"{ g...@panix.com }"{
{ http://www.etaoin.com | latest new material 1/19/03 <-adv't
Wynne Ean-Hand
says...
>Both however believe beer can taste like piss (a
>special place is reserved for "uilezeik" which is owl piss) and
>liberal use of genitals is also widely supported.
>Amazing isn't it? :-)
Yep! And since we're off onto this topic
of 'taste' - in art and now other matters -
I can only be awed by the thought of anyone
knowing what piss or shit tastes like, to
say nothing of tasting 'owl piss.' At least
in my case, I would never argue the point
to the extent of making a taste test!
Mike Stengl
>
> Well most painters I know like to paint layers and layers over an
> already existing layer.
I wish I knew how to do this. When I add a brushstroke, a dab of
paint, anything and the paint is still wet, the added paint 'fits in'
with the previous colors as depending on how many times I make the
same brush stroke the colors work into each other. When I attempt to
work on a painting that is dry or tacky to the point of stickyness
(unless I'm at the end of a great day painting and adding the final
touches) the new color sticks out like a sore thumb, does not 'fit
in'. Yes, I have had to paint over entire pieces again but this
includes painting over parts that 'were fine' but didn't work after
the new unblended, paint had been added. I would LOVE to learn how to
just paint over previous paint, I have as yet to figure it out. Any
suggestions are apreciated, take a look at how I
work:http://home.pacbell.net/galdog/MikeStengl/index.htm
> However, from what you say, it leads me to
> believe that you have a tendency to paint thinly
Perhaps,it seems to build up even so, I'm not the pallet knife type.
> and then in a futile
> attempt, mix colours after it had already dried, or had taken too long
> to make a decision on the next colour to contrast?
Hey! You've been WATCHING me. Where the hell do you hide?
>
> If oil paints dry too quickly (never happened to me, BTW, I was always
> sitting on my ass, smoking ciggies and calling up my girlfriend on the
> phone while waiting for the paint to dry, or I just feel asleep until
> the next day) my rule is to apply another layer or to gently rub out
> the previous layer with turpentine. I suppose though that this depends
> on your subject.
Hmmm. It was suggested to me to make a mixture of equal parts turp(I
use a substitute)/damar varnish/& linseed oil, which seems to work ok,
not great, and sometimes makes the painting dry strangely...
>
> Regards,
> Hadley
Thanks. I didn't think you really cared. We're gonna be best friends
now.
Hadley
hahahahahah! Paul Mesken, you've never had paint smeared on your skin
before. It's IMPOSSIBLE to get off with soap!
nice try.
Hadley
Hadley
hansy-poo,
Don't get so upset. I consider you a great thinker, if not completely
insane in general. However, weren't you also the one who used
ANTI-FREEZE with your oils? Now, I think that's simply crazy. Not only
is that more toxic than turpentine, it's cancer causing, did you know?
You should never handle ANTI-FREEZE.
I'm glad you like mineral spirits, but you realise that it's not
nearly as effective as turpentine. Also painting with mineral spirits
causes paint to slightly degrade in vividness of colour, as well as
being hard to mix. The nice thing about turpentine is that it
integrates and mixes easily, and dries much quicker than mineral
spirits.
Why do you make your own varnish??!! Just curious....
Hadley-poo
Anastasia
> >
> > Well most painters I know like to paint layers and layers over an
> > already existing layer.
>
> I wish I knew how to do this. When I add a brushstroke, a dab of
> paint, anything and the paint is still wet, the added paint 'fits in'
> with the previous colors as depending on how many times I make the
> same brush stroke the colors work into each other. When I attempt to
> work on a painting that is dry or tacky to the point of stickyness
> (unless I'm at the end of a great day painting and adding the final
> touches) the new color sticks out like a sore thumb, does not 'fit
> in'. Yes, I have had to paint over entire pieces again but this
> includes painting over parts that 'were fine' but didn't work after
> the new unblended, paint had been added. I would LOVE to learn how to
> just paint over previous paint, I have as yet to figure it out. Any
> suggestions are apreciated, take a look at how I
> work:http://home.pacbell.net/galdog/MikeStengl/index.htm
When I first started painting oils, all my portraits had an odd
tendency to look brown (eg, all the colours started to blend a little
too much and I had been too lazy to clean the brush after each
stroke). I think painting layers depend on how much of a perfectionist
you really are. Before painting layers, I always wait until the paint
is nearly dry before I add another layer. Otherwise, if it's dry to
the point of crispness, then I gently brush the affected areas I want
with turpentine, wait a few minutes before it absorbs then add the
colours that I want. Also, you can add more turpentine to the oils
before adding layers as well. One of the nice things with oil is that
it is infinitely soluble, that is you can keep working on the same oil
painting for years, something you just can't do with acrylics; once it
dries, then that's it. The colour underneath can't be changed, and
painting over it looks uneven. I haven't tried painting over a canvas
completely after having started it. To rub the entire canvas clean
seems like hard work to me, and then even when I do, it seems to have
some kind of psychological effect on limiting my expression in my
mind. For example, the grey is still there, and I don't want the
emotional baggage of a grey canvas, I want to start out with a fresh
white canvas, etc...
> > However, from what you say, it leads me to
> > believe that you have a tendency to paint thinly
>
> Perhaps,it seems to build up even so, I'm not the pallet knife type.
I only use the pallet knife to scrape things off. Once I got so angry
I stuck it *into* my canvas. I've matured since then, and these days
I'm a lot more patient.
> > and then in a futile
> > attempt, mix colours after it had already dried, or had taken too long
> > to make a decision on the next colour to contrast?
>
> Hey! You've been WATCHING me. Where the hell do you hide?
Hmm...we must be alike or something...
> Hmmm. It was suggested to me to make a mixture of equal parts turp(I
> use a substitute)/damar varnish/& linseed oil, which seems to work ok,
> not great, and sometimes makes the painting dry strangely...
I primarily use turpentine & linseed oil, but I rarely use turpentine
& damar varnish. I haven't really noticed the difference except that I
psychologically *prefer* linseed oil. Most painters I know aren't too
picky either, but develop a habit of using one or the other after
years of painting.
> Thanks. I didn't think you really cared. We're gonna be best friends
> now.
You must be one of the more witty people on usenet.
Regards,
Hadley
_________
"She framed me, then hung me up on the walls of her bedroom as if I
were a work of art she fancied looking at from time to
time."---Anastasia
Erik A. Mattila
>>Again, sheer and utter nonsense. A lot of painters use ordinary soap.
>>Just wipe off the paint with cloth or something, wet the brush with
>>luke warm water, rub it in the palm of the hand with some soap, repeat
>>until the foam stays white then rinse them out with luke warm water.
>>This is *standard* procedure. Drowning brushes in turps might get
>>paint into the ferrule.
>
>
> hahahahahah! Paul Mesken, you've never had paint smeared on your skin
> before. It's IMPOSSIBLE to get off with soap!
>
> nice try.
>
> Hadley
Not so. I've used soap to clean brushes for years. It work's quite
well. Paul's right. And it's kind to Sable also. Best to use a
"natural soap" like Ivory...I don't think the stuff with all the perfume
in it does any good.
But I think turpentine gets a bad rap. It actually has medicinal value.
Pine pitch, for example, is a wonderful disinfectant - used by a lot
of savages worldwide just for that purpose. For example, if you want to
get rid of Atheletes foot, just boil up some pitch in water and soak
your feet in the solution. Smear pitch on an infection, and it will
heal quickly. I kid you not.
Erik
Paul Mesken
wrote:
I wonder what kind of paint you use. However I doubt you can tell me,
seeing you demonstrate your complete lack of even basic material
knowledge about oil painting.
Ofcourse you're not fooling the regulars here of who a big part make
their own gesso, mediums, varnishes and their own paints. It's not
hard and it's very rewarding. I believe this newsgroup is a good way
to share such knowledge.
What I'm concerned about that a newbie might actually take your drivel
serious.
So, for those ones I will state what is obvious to the regulars :
you're a troll and don't know shit about oil painting.
Paul Mesken
<emat...@oco.net> wrote:
>But I think turpentine gets a bad rap. It actually has medicinal value.
> Pine pitch, for example, is a wonderful disinfectant - used by a lot
>of savages worldwide just for that purpose. For example, if you want to
>get rid of Atheletes foot, just boil up some pitch in water and soak
>your feet in the solution. Smear pitch on an infection, and it will
>heal quickly. I kid you not.
Hmm, it probably hurts like Hell as well. When I was a kid I got my
little finger between the door and I had to disinfect it by putting it
in a sodium solution (just the regular stuff also used for cleaning).
I remember vividly the first time I put my hurt finger in it, it did
work though. No pain, no gain :-)
About anything that can be used to clean greasy stuff can be used to
clean brushes used for oil painting (alcohol, ammonia, etc.). The
question is whether it hurts the hairs. The most important thing is to
wipe off as much of the oil paint with a cloth or something before
cleaning it. The greatest danger is getting paint into the ferrule. I
have had kolinsky's ruined this way in the days when I simply dipped
in my dirty brushes in turps. Paint soaked up in the ferrule hardened
and made the brushes stiff. Ofcourse there's always acetone :-)
Mani Deli
wrote:
>hahahahahah! Paul Mesken, you've never had paint smeared on your skin
>before. It's IMPOSSIBLE to get off with soap!
>
This jerk probably can't afford soap.
...no skill no art!
Want to get away from the indecipherable imbecilities and absurd pretensions of the modern art establishment?
Check out my web page http://www3.sympatico.ca/manideli/
Paul Mesken
wrote:
>On 13 Jun 2003 04:27:45 -0700, vegas_...@hotmail.com (Hadley)
>wrote:
>
>
>>hahahahahah! Paul Mesken, you've never had paint smeared on your skin
>>before. It's IMPOSSIBLE to get off with soap!
>>
>This jerk probably can't afford soap.
He probably spends all of his money on turps, it's obvious from his
posts he drinks it as well :-)
Mike Stengl
> eatn...@humboldt1.com (Mike Stengl) wrote in message news:<45dd5dd.03061...@posting.google.com>...
> > Anas...@ivebeenframed.com (Anastasia) wrote in message news:<fdaf1b0d.0306...@posting.google.com>...
Thanks for the info. Having an oil painting be infinitely paintable is
a fantasy of mine. We'll test your suggestions. I usually get 4 days
max.
mar...@myrealbox.com
>I've been told that the worst insult you can utter to a
>Québecois is _calice_ (chalice). I've been afraid to
>experiment with it, however.
http://www.notam02.no/~hcholm/altlang/ht/Quebecois.html
:-)
Erik A. Mattila
Paul Mesken wrote:
> The greatest danger is getting paint into the ferrule. I
> have had kolinsky's ruined this way in the days when I simply dipped
> in my dirty brushes in turps. Paint soaked up in the ferrule hardened
> and made the brushes stiff. Ofcourse there's always acetone :-)
Or gasoline, which I've used in a pinch. But Paul, you need to stop
painting upsidedown to keep the paint out of the ferrels - especially
those expensive ferret-ferrels. ;-)
Seriously, I wonder how many brushes were ruined on the Sistine Chaple?
Erik
>
Paul Mesken
<emat...@oco.net> wrote:
>
>
>Paul Mesken wrote:
>
>> The greatest danger is getting paint into the ferrule. I
>> have had kolinsky's ruined this way in the days when I simply dipped
>> in my dirty brushes in turps. Paint soaked up in the ferrule hardened
>> and made the brushes stiff. Ofcourse there's always acetone :-)
>
>Or gasoline, which I've used in a pinch. But Paul, you need to stop
>painting upsidedown to keep the paint out of the ferrels - especially
>those expensive ferret-ferrels. ;-)
I've given up on using those. From now on I only go for the best :
pure frog nasal hair (from the males in the mating season ofcourse ;-)
Wynne Ean-Hand
vegas_...@hotmail.com says...
>However, weren't you also the one who used
>ANTI-FREEZE with your oils?
As usual, shyte dribbles from your pores.
I use anti-freeze to retard the drying of ACRYLICS!
Let me repeat - ACRYLICS - as in ACRYLIC POLYMER PAINT!!
Anti-freeze (or it's cosmetic equivalent, propylene glycol)
will retard the drying of ACRYLIC PAINT!!!
>Now, I think that's simply crazy.
No doubt. Insane people have crazy thoughts.
And so do the simple minded - who have simply
crazy thoughts!
>You should never handle ANTI-FREEZE.
Why in god's name would I 'handle' it? I drink
it straight from the jug - that way there is no
need to 'handle' it.
>I'm glad you like mineral spirits, but you realise that it's not
>nearly as effective as turpentine.
Sez WHO??? Since when did you become the authority
on what 'handles best?' Would you care to site a
reference - or site a 'Standard' that is based
on exhaustive testing of spirits vs turps?
>Also painting with mineral spirits
>causes paint to slightly degrade in vividness of colour, as well as
>being hard to mix.
After more than 30 years of experience, using BOTH
spirits and turps, I have yet to tell the difference.
Maybe, as I said in another thread, I just lack the
sophistication to tell the difference. Perhaps I should
purchase an electronic device that can distinguish
the difference when I'm painting so that I get it as
accurate as is 'un-humanly' possible!
>
>Why do you make your own varnish??!! Just curious....
Well, if it's only to satisfy your curiosity, I
think I'll decline to reply...
Wynne Ean-Hand
>But I think turpentine gets a bad rap. It actually has medicinal value.
> Pine pitch, for example, is a wonderful disinfectant - used by a lot
>of savages worldwide just for that purpose. For example, if you want to
>get rid of Atheletes foot, just boil up some pitch in water and soak
>your feet in the solution. Smear pitch on an infection, and it will
>heal quickly. I kid you not.
>
>Erik
Hmmmmm...I keep an Aloe plant handy for
self-medicating all sorts of things. Is
Pine Pitch better than Aloe? I have no
shortage of pine pitch where I live. In
fact, it's a nuisance this time of year,
along with the pine pollen that coats
everything. In fact, I've chewed hardened
pine pitch - does wonders for cleaning
teeth...
Wynne Ean-Hand
ow...@hurts.daddy says...
>Seriously, Vaseline intensive care hand lotion seems to get just about
>anything off your hands
Try ordinary old Vaseline - the gel - BEFORE you
get your hands dirty! Rubbing in Vaseline before
the act will make it much easier to clean after
the act. And Vaseline is at least as half as
expensive as the hand lotion.
For really grimy hands, there is nothing that works
better for cleanup than the waterless hand cleaners
used by garage mechanics and others who work in
really grimy occupations.
Paul Mesken
wrote:
>In article <3EE9BE24...@oco.net>, emat...@oco.net says...
>
>
>>But I think turpentine gets a bad rap. It actually has medicinal value.
>> Pine pitch, for example, is a wonderful disinfectant - used by a lot
>>of savages worldwide just for that purpose. For example, if you want to
>>get rid of Atheletes foot, just boil up some pitch in water and soak
>>your feet in the solution. Smear pitch on an infection, and it will
>>heal quickly. I kid you not.
>>
>>Erik
>
>Hmmmmm...I keep an Aloe plant handy for
>self-medicating all sorts of things. Is
>Pine Pitch better than Aloe?
We have toilet paper with Aloe in it! I always thought it was for
enhanced softness but I didn't know it had medicating qualities,
perhaps something against hammeroids?
Erik A. Mattila
Oh, yea...that's the other medicinal quality I failed to add: according
to legend, drinking turpentine will cause an abortion.
Erik
>
Peter H.M. Brooks
"Wynne Ean-Hand" <ha...@dontemailme.com> wrote in message
news:3eea...@news.zianet.com...
> In article <MPG.1953712cf...@news-server.bak.rr.com>,
> ow...@hurts.daddy says...
>
>
> >Seriously, Vaseline intensive care hand lotion seems to get just about
> >anything off your hands
>
> Try ordinary old Vaseline - the gel - BEFORE you
> get your hands dirty! Rubbing in Vaseline before
> the act will make it much easier to clean after
> the act. And Vaseline is at least as half as
> expensive as the hand lotion.
>
(wool fat).
--
The decades-long debate over the consistency of personality and the
existense of character traits has now been settled. - Race, Evolution and
Behavour p22 J. Phillippe Rushton 1995
Peter H.M. Brooks
polite) does not have a uniform consistency.
--
"As we know there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We
also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some
things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we
don't know we don't know." - Donald Rumpfield, Killer in chief
Paul Mesken
wrote:
>In article <1eb6d2bc.03061...@posting.google.com>,
>vegas_...@hotmail.com says...
>>You should never handle ANTI-FREEZE.
>
>Why in god's name would I 'handle' it? I drink
>it straight from the jug - that way there is no
>need to 'handle' it.
ROTFLMAO! You rule Jack! Hadley is obviously a wussie who only dares
to handle finger paint. Hell, if I open my cabinet with chemicals all
I see is orange warning signs with skulls, crosses and fire on them.
My motto is : if it doesn't kill you, it ain't archival! :-)
Peter H.M. Brooks
> On 13 Jun 2003 16:34:08 -0600, ha...@dontemailme.com (Wynne Ean-Hand)
> wrote:
>
> My motto is : if it doesn't kill you, it ain't archival! :-)
>
--
The story of the human race is war. Except for brief and precarious
interludes there has never been peace in the world; and long before history
began murderous strife was universal and unending." - Winston Churchill
Erik A. Mattila
That's pretty funny. There's a colloquialism I picked-up in the
mountains of NE California years ago:
"Hey, how are you doing?"
"As fine as Frog Hair."
Now I've got to go back and search Netherlandish Proverbs to see if
Pieter has that one covered too!
Erik
>
>
Neil Maxwell
wrote:
>Don't get so upset. I consider you a great thinker, if not completely
>insane in general. However, weren't you also the one who used
>ANTI-FREEZE with your oils? Now, I think that's simply crazy. Not only
>is that more toxic than turpentine, it's cancer causing, did you know?
>You should never handle ANTI-FREEZE.
OK, there are two main variants of anti-freeze; ethylene glycol and
propylene glycol. Ethylene glycol is fairly toxic, absorbable through
the sking, and not much fun. Propylene glycol is used as a food
additive and is classified by the FDA as "generally safe".
Neither is carcinogenic according to current data.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts96.html
Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer
Erik A. Mattila
I think Aloe is a little different - I've used it on burns and it works
great. I talked to a woman, an Achomawi from Shasta County, NorCal, who
had developed a festering sore on her breast, and when she went to the
doctor he said they would have to remove the breast because the sore had
a complex "root" system that was too extensive to cut out. She
declined, and went home and applied pitch from a "Black Pine" (which was
thought to be the best). In about two weeks the sore was gone, and the
wound was healing. She returned to the doctor and he was amazed, even
calling colleagues in to witness it. Apparently, the pitch has a
"drawing" action, which pulls out the carrion and all that, cleaning the
wound thoroughly.
Another time I had a friend who had a pup who was raiding everyone's
trash in a logging camp. Someone took a shot at it with a 22 and hit it
in the hind leg and the wound soon got infected. I heated up some
Yellow Pine pitch in a can until it got soft (I pulled it off a tree in
crystal form) and applied it to the wound with a stick. It only took a
couple of days for the swelling to go down and the infection to begin to
heal. The dog would lick at the pitch, but it stuck ok, and the dog was
using its leg in a couple of days. I was amazed.
I think you should check it out with some local Indians. I can't see
why your local pines wouldn't work...are they Piñons, Ponderosa, Western
White??? I think one way to check is to try to find hunks of "pitchwood"
(greasewood) in the rotting stumps of a logged area. If you find it, it
means the pitch has accumulated there and disinfected the wood, keeping
if from rotting away completely. Obviously pitch is a bacteriocide and
fungacide. But I think some species are better than others.
Do your Pines explode with great cracks during pollen season? I always
that that was pretty awesome. You're tooling along and all of a sudden
you hear a loud "craaaack" and look to the sound and see a yellow cloud.
Nature's WMC (weapons of mass creation).
And did you ever hear about the logger who had worked in the woods so
long that he changed his telephone number to "Tree Tree Tree - Fir Tree
Fir Tree?"
Erik
Erik A. Mattila
Wynne Ean-Hand wrote:
> In article <MPG.1953712cf...@news-server.bak.rr.com>,
> ow...@hurts.daddy says...
>
>
>
>>Seriously, Vaseline intensive care hand lotion seems to get just about
>>anything off your hands
>
>
> Try ordinary old Vaseline - the gel - BEFORE you
> get your hands dirty! Rubbing in Vaseline before
> the act will make it much easier to clean after
> the act. And Vaseline is at least as half as
> expensive as the hand lotion.
Yeah, but you have to be careful. I was trying to make wax for a bronze
casting once, and the formula called for beeswax, parafin, and Vaseline.
So I went to the drug store and bought about 6 big jars of Vaseline,
along with the other supplies. When I was at the checkout stand, the
lady at the cash register looked at all the Vaseline, then at me, and
then smiled warmly and said: "Gee, you're really into it, aren't you!"
"It's for my art project" I yelled.
Erik
Erik A. Mattila
Sounds to me like something right out of Pantagruel and Gargantua, Paul.
Did you ever read Rabalaise? There was a chapter about a search for
the perfect substance to wipe your ass with. It was pretty funny...long
lists of things that were tried out. Ah, the Renaissance...
Erik
>
>
Erik A. Mattila
Are either of them aphrodisiac?
Erik
Paul Mesken
wrote:
>In article <h3qkevgv6s40uk10n...@4ax.com>,
>neil.m...@nospam.intel.com says...
>> On 13 Jun 2003 04:34:30 -0700, vegas_...@hotmail.com (Hadley)
>> wrote:
>> >Don't get so upset. I consider you a great thinker, if not completely
>> >insane in general. However, weren't you also the one who used
>> >ANTI-FREEZE with your oils? Now, I think that's simply crazy. Not only
>> >is that more toxic than turpentine, it's cancer causing, did you know?
>> >You should never handle ANTI-FREEZE.
>>
>> OK, there are two main variants of anti-freeze; ethylene glycol and
>> propylene glycol. Ethylene glycol is fairly toxic, absorbable through
>> the sking, and not much fun. Propylene glycol is used as a food
>> additive and is classified by the FDA as "generally safe".
>
>The antidote, apparently, for ethylene glycol ingestion is large amounts
>of ethanol. Sometimes the antidote for a lot of things is large amounts
>of ethanol. I think I'll go treat myself to an antidote right now just
>in case I come across anything for which an antidote might be needed.
Large amounts of ethanol?! I have a litre of that (for shellac) but
it's denatured (for obvious reasons) Would go easy on it though ;-)
Paul Mesken
<emat...@oco.net> wrote:
>Paul Mesken wrote:
>> On 13 Jun 2003 16:40:39 -0600, ha...@dontemailme.com (Wynne Ean-Hand)
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <3EE9BE24...@oco.net>, emat...@oco.net says...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>But I think turpentine gets a bad rap. It actually has medicinal value.
>>>> Pine pitch, for example, is a wonderful disinfectant - used by a lot
>>>>of savages worldwide just for that purpose. For example, if you want to
>>>>get rid of Atheletes foot, just boil up some pitch in water and soak
>>>>your feet in the solution. Smear pitch on an infection, and it will
>>>>heal quickly. I kid you not.
>>>>
>>>>Erik
>>>
>>>Hmmmmm...I keep an Aloe plant handy for
>>>self-medicating all sorts of things. Is
>>>Pine Pitch better than Aloe?
>>
>>
>> We have toilet paper with Aloe in it! I always thought it was for
>> enhanced softness but I didn't know it had medicating qualities,
>> perhaps something against hammeroids?
>
>Sounds to me like something right out of Pantagruel and Gargantua, Paul.
> Did you ever read Rabalaise?
You know Erik, I have about 700 books here but for some reasons you
always come up with the ones I haven't read :-)
>There was a chapter about a search for
>the perfect substance to wipe your ass with. It was pretty funny...long
>lists of things that were tried out. Ah, the Renaissance...
A friend of mine travelled to Africa (Mali and stuff) a couple of
times and the people there wipe off their asses with their (left)
hand. They don't believe in toilet paper and thought my friend was
dumb for using it since they reasoned as piece of paper could never
really clean your rear exit :-)
Paul Mesken
I had a similar experience once. I used to have a vintage Peugeot 404
with lots of chrome. A friend of mine told that I could make it really
shiny with vaseline so we travelled down to the "Gamma" and bought a
can of it. It was at the cash register that it dawned upon me how
conspicious this looked like :-)
Hadley
Thanks for the suggestion, but I like to smear paint with my fingers
sometimes. :) Besides, I can't stand having having gooey substances on
my hands while I'm working.
Some painters use that harsh abrasive soap, but I'm too sensitive for
that.
Regards,
Hadley
Hadley
> >> On 11 Jun 2003 01:13:53 -0700, Anas...@ivebeenframed.com (Anastasia)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >right@the_end.of.my_tether (Andrew D) wrote in message news:<right-11060...@i204-147.nv.iinet.net.au>...
> >> >> In article <1eb6d2bc.03061...@posting.google.com>,
> >> >> vegas_...@hotmail.com (Hadley) wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> [snip]
> >> >> >It's not the oils that are toxic, but the turpentine.
> >> >>
> >> >> And the pigments - but that applies to all paints and even pastels.
> >> >>
> >> >> > There's no way
> >> >> >to avoid the toxic fumes of turpentine, I'm afraid.
> >> >>
> >> >> I use oils with no turps or medium. I still find the smell a little
> >> >> irritating. Linseed oil may not be toxic, but it might be a mild allergen?
> >> >
> >> >Andrew D, you're full of shyte. There's no way you can use oils
> >> >without turpentine.
> >>
> >> What a complete nonsenses, a lot of painters advise against turps
> >> because they slap the colors dead. I've stopped using turps eons ago.
> >> To speed up drying one can use cobalt drier or black oil but this is
> >> not necessary if drying time is of no concern. To make the paint flow
> >> better one can use a little bit of stand oil.
> >>
> >> Ofcourse the ones who want to make an oil painting look like a water
> >> color need lots of turps but they've chosen the wrong medium.
> >>
> >> >Baby oil is impossible to use for clean-up. Tiny areas on the skin
> >> >might be alright, as long as you keep rubbing for several minutes to
> >> >get the paint off, but it is not nearly as effective as turpentine on
> >> >brushes. Unless you want to spend several hours cleaning your brushes
> >> >with baby oil (and even then, they *won't* be clean, but do try it on
> >> >your own) there is no way to avoid using turpentine.
> >>
> >> Again, sheer and utter nonsense. A lot of painters use ordinary soap.
> >> Just wipe off the paint with cloth or something, wet the brush with
> >> luke warm water, rub it in the palm of the hand with some soap, repeat
> >> until the foam stays white then rinse them out with luke warm water.
> >> This is *standard* procedure. Drowning brushes in turps might get
> >> paint into the ferrule.
> >
> >hahahahahah! Paul Mesken, you've never had paint smeared on your skin
> >before. It's IMPOSSIBLE to get off with soap!
> >
>
> I wonder what kind of paint you use. However I doubt you can tell me,
> seeing you demonstrate your complete lack of even basic material
> knowledge about oil painting.
You're right. I'm actually a reporter and have many artist friends
whom I ask for such advice. Then there's google.com, a load of
resources there, especially for aspiring journalists, uh, artists like
myself. Now if only I can develop some good taste...
> Ofcourse you're not fooling the regulars here of who a big part make
> their own gesso, mediums, varnishes and their own paints. It's not
> hard and it's very rewarding. I believe this newsgroup is a good way
> to share such knowledge.
Read above.
> What I'm concerned about that a newbie might actually take your drivel
> serious.
Actually, I do take you very seriously. I apologise if I've upset you
Paul Mesken, but I think my "drivel" has some validity, don't you
think? I learned how to use a camera by the book, but out in the
field, I realised that theory and practice often collide and that the
textbook does not teach you what you must learn on your own. A bit
like falling in love as well. You can theorise about a person by
watching her behaviour, but you never really know unless you live with
her. Oh, back to painting....so yeah, every painter has a different
style. Just because you're a purist and like to make your own
varnishes, well, that's just you. You like doing things by the book,
so be it.
> So, for those ones I will state what is obvious to the regulars :
> you're a troll and don't know shit about oil painting.
You sound exactly like an art professor I had in college. She was
always going around telling everyone their work was crap and they knew
shyte about oil painting. Mainly she painted cows. She wanted me to
paint cows. I didn't want to paint cows. I painted what I wanted & how
I wanted. Who's to say that you're more correct than I am in this
respect?
Regards,
Hadley
NightMist
wrote:
>In article <3EE9BE24...@oco.net>, emat...@oco.net says...
A tale that will never let you look at turps the same way ever
again...
One of the oft repeated stories about my deceased (1968)
father-in-law. He was a great believer in the medicinal value of
turpentine, being know to pour it into open wounds, smear it over
rashes etc. He caught crabs and treated it with turpentine thusly:
Bring about 5 gallons of turpentine to a boil, pour it into a washtub,
remove all clothing from lower body, sit in tub of way too hot
turpentine.
Apparently it got rid of the crabs. Probably multiple layers of skin
and a lot of hair as well.
Barbara
--
I'm a little teapot, short and stout
here is my handle, here is my...other...handle?
Bloody Hell!!
I'm a sugar bowl!
NightMist
<emat...@oco.net> wrote:
>Sounds to me like something right out of Pantagruel and Gargantua, Paul.
> Did you ever read Rabalaise? There was a chapter about a search for
>the perfect substance to wipe your ass with. It was pretty funny...long
>lists of things that were tried out. Ah, the Renaissance...
>
Ladies hats, especially the kind with feathers....
NightMist
wrote:
>In article <h3qkevgv6s40uk10n...@4ax.com>,
>neil.m...@nospam.intel.com says...
>> On 13 Jun 2003 04:34:30 -0700, vegas_...@hotmail.com (Hadley)
>> wrote:
>> >Don't get so upset. I consider you a great thinker, if not completely
>> >insane in general. However, weren't you also the one who used
>> >ANTI-FREEZE with your oils? Now, I think that's simply crazy. Not only
>> >is that more toxic than turpentine, it's cancer causing, did you know?
>> >You should never handle ANTI-FREEZE.
>>
>> OK, there are two main variants of anti-freeze; ethylene glycol and
>> propylene glycol. Ethylene glycol is fairly toxic, absorbable through
>> the sking, and not much fun. Propylene glycol is used as a food
>> additive and is classified by the FDA as "generally safe".
>
>The antidote, apparently, for ethylene glycol ingestion is large amounts
>of ethanol. Sometimes the antidote for a lot of things is large amounts
>of ethanol. I think I'll go treat myself to an antidote right now just
>in case I come across anything for which an antidote might be needed.
Brilliant!
Our girlfriend got my hubby a litre of Dewers for Fathers Day, and I
have been trying to figure out how to get him to share.
"Ack! Urrrgh! I am poisoned! Must..get...antidote...scotch! scotch!"
Paul Mesken
wrote:
>Paul Mesken <usu...@euronet.nl> wrote in message news:<6rnjevkh6re6s87li...@4ax.com>...
>> On 13 Jun 2003 04:27:45 -0700, vegas_...@hotmail.com (Hadley)
>> wrote:
>>
>> I wonder what kind of paint you use. However I doubt you can tell me,
>> seeing you demonstrate your complete lack of even basic material
>> knowledge about oil painting.
>
>You're right. I'm actually a reporter and have many artist friends
>whom I ask for such advice. Then there's google.com, a load of
>resources there, especially for aspiring journalists, uh, artists like
>myself. Now if only I can develop some good taste...
So basically you're saying you're a reporter who doesn't paint himself
but makes all kind of wild claims about painting.
>but I think my "drivel" has some validity, don't you think?
You mean your claims that it's impossible to do oil painting without
turps, that brushes cannot be cleaned by anything but turps and your
demonstration of not being able to distinguish when someone talks
about acrylics or oil paint?
No, it doesn't have any validity at all.
>Just because you're a purist and like to make your own
>varnishes, well, that's just you. You like doing things by the book,
>so be it.
What a nonsense. Some reporter you are! Where on earth do you base the
assumption upon that I'm doing everything by the book? Making one's
own materials like paint, mediums, varnishes and grounds enables one
to experiment.
Let's take the book about painting "The Artist's Handbook of Materials
and Techniques" by Ralph Mayer. It's the standard work. It says :
"The free use of turpentine or its equivalent as a thinner or diluent
is a necessary part of the process in the majority of oil and
oleoresinous painting techniques".
Now you were saying that it is impossible to paint without turps. You
could have used the above quote to support your case. I and Andrew
don't use turps in oil painting however and thus demonstrated that we
don't do things by the books.
Furthermore you showed how appalled you were by seeing that Jack used
antifreeze to keep his acrylics open longer.
You're the one who wants to do things by the book, not Jack, Andrew or
me. We experiment with our materials like any painter loving his/her
own craft.
>> So, for those ones I will state what is obvious to the regulars :
>> you're a troll and don't know shit about oil painting.
>
>You sound exactly like an art professor I had in college. She was
>always going around telling everyone their work was crap and they knew
>shyte about oil painting.
So basically you're claiming that I say everyone's work is crap and
that I don't know shyte about oil painting. Well, that's an opinion
which I confidently leave to others to evaluate.
Wynne Ean-Hand
says...
>Ofcourse there's always acetone :-)
That's another one that 'wusses' go through the
roof over if it's mentioned. There is nothing
that loosens and dissolves dried oil paint as
well as does acetone. In fact it's rated as less
toxic than many of the more common solvents
found in an art studio.
Wynne Ean-Hand
>Oh, yea...that's the other medicinal quality I failed to add: according
>to legend, drinking turpentine will cause an abortion.
>
>Erik
Isn't that what you're doing every time you drink Retsina?
And most Greeks I've met seem pretty healthy to me.
And it sure doesn't seem to have affected their birth
rate noticeably. Of course maybe mothers have historically
been warned against drinking retsina during pregnancy.
But here is a personal one. I asked the pharmacist if
there was a 'pure form' of aloe available, thinking
I could find it like I can pure lanolin - only available in
a pharmacy. I was told, "yes, it's on the counter
over there - the DRINKABLE kind!" Live and learn!
Or drink turps and aloe and die learning - not sure
which...
In any event, thanks for all the 'tips' on pine
pitch and it's derivatives. I have Ponderosa and
piñon in abundance where I live. Maybe I'll begin
collecting crystallized pitch.
Seagull Manager
"Erik A. Mattila" <emat...@oco.net> wrote in message
news:3EEA46ED...@oco.net...
>
> Or gasoline, which I've used in a pinch.
You've never tried ordinary cooking oil?
Seagull Manager
"Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
news:bcdm5h$h6u$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>
> don't know we don't know." - Donald Rumpfield, Killer in chief
Allow me to recommend a book: "Pieces of Intelligence: The Existential
Poetry of Donald Rumsfeld". Very funny.
Seagull Manager
"Mani Deli" <ma...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:d1rjev8ig21dgg928...@4ax.com...
> >before. It's IMPOSSIBLE to get off with soap!
> >
Maybe he uses auto gloss (a la Pollock), and doesn't know the difference.
Erik A. Mattila
No, but I tried ordinary motor oil. Strangely, it worked. That puzzled
me, because I couldn't undertand how it dried. But it did, and it
really dulled the pigments and the patina was really miserable. The
couple of paintings I did kicked around for a few years and seemed
pretty stable, though.
Erik
>
>
Seagull Manager
Most cooking oils would never dry, most likely, but it are good for
clean-up. Walnut oil is excellent for painting, and is less viscous and lies
flatter than linseed oil.
Seagull Manager
As muslims, they wouldn't choose toilet paper. Water is prescribed by
scripture.
Paul Mesken
Is it a muslim thing? That would mean Saddam Hussein wipes off his ass
with his hand :-)
Seagull Manager
>
> Is it a muslim thing? That would mean Saddam Hussein wipes off his ass
> with his hand :-)
But he thinks you're the one with the dirty habit.
Paul Mesken
The (western) mind boggles ;-)
Wynne Ean-Hand
>couple of paintings I did kicked around for a few years
I can only imagine they were trying to
"kick start" themselves, having those motor oil genes!
Wynne Ean-Hand
seagull...@afang.nospamthanks.demon.co.uk says...
>As muslims, they wouldn't choose toilet paper. Water is prescribed by
>scripture.
BUT BUT BUTT...when you live in the arid
desert as many Arab muslims do, you learn
to use SAND instead!
There is an old warning, "Never shake the
hand of a one-armed Muslim" - or something
like that...
Seagull Manager
"Wynne Ean-Hand" <ha...@dontemailme.com> wrote in message
news:3eed01ab$1...@news.zianet.com...
> In article <bchm38$saq$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> seagull...@afang.nospamthanks.demon.co.uk says...
>
>
> >As muslims, they wouldn't choose toilet paper. Water is prescribed by
> >scripture.
>
> BUT BUT BUTT...when you live in the arid
> desert as many Arab muslims do, you learn
> to use SAND instead!
True, and officially approved by religion.
Paul Mesken
You mean the Sharia actually prescribes how one should wipe his ass?
Wow, the islamic threat is even greater than I thought ;-)
Wynne Ean-Hand
says...
>You mean the Sharia actually prescribes how one should wipe his ass?
>Wow, the islamic threat is even greater than I thought ;-)
About the only "positive" I ever read from
the (deceased) Ayatollah Khomeini was his
admonition to men after urinating - to keep
those last drops from soiling their dresses,
"Press hard between anus and scrotum." And
of course, what we all do naturally anyway,
"shake that third 'leg.'"
Seagull Manager
>
> You mean the Sharia actually prescribes how one should wipe his ass?
> Wow, the islamic threat is even greater than I thought ;-)
In its totalitarianism, Islam closely resembles Judaism and Christianity.
Mani Deli
object which was fascinating due to the artist's use of his superior
skill, craftsmanship and, ideas beautifully executed.
With 20th cent. Modern Art (the stuff allowed into museums), the
viewer should no longer expect skill, craftsmanship, and beauty. The
aim of the artist was now, most simply put, shock the viewer by any
means possible. (Anything-goes-art.)
The viewer by now has become acutely aware of the absence of skill and
craftsmanship and more often than not, ideas and beauty.
Most any person can sense superior skill and craftsmanship whether he
is knowledgeable about art or not. He knows that Art whatever it might
be, is something that few can make.
The intended shock of Modern Art is really to the viewers
expectations.
When confronted with Modern Art, the very basic question which goes
through the viewer's mind, which put as simply as possible is "what's
this supposed to be, Art?" I'm sure the reader has come across many
answers to this question like, My child can do that. Man is that ugly.
I may not know what art is but that's not. The Emperor's new clothes.
Critics answer these statements by claiming that art has completely
changed and blaming the viewer of insensitivity and a lack of
understanding .
I blame the critics for simply not understanding that essentially the
viewers expectations HAVE NOT changed and I see no reason why they
should.
...no skill no art!
Want to get away from the indecipherable imbecilities and absurd pretensions of the modern art establishment?
Check out my web page http://www3.sympatico.ca/manideli/
gerberk
without any skills i refuse to take you seriously.You are an American
without any taste for art what so ever.
regards
"Mani Deli" <ma...@sympatico.ca> schreef in bericht
news:qk61fv8j51s3ot98u...@4ax.com...
Mike Stengl
So, are you against anything that is not representative of something?
Are you suggesting all abstract art is non? I'm curious.
gerberk
Yes that is probably true but he sure likes American Realism and calls it
art .
Paul Cadmus :male nudes and pin ups
Maxfield Parrish :some weird stuff about angels or devils
Vargas: female nudes and pin ups
Walt Disney :ducks and other creatures
The Simpsons: funny comics
>>>Can you in a similar post enlighten us all
on what is a good work of Modern Art and
what is a bad work of Modern Art and how
you come to this judgement?
I dont fucking know anything about art but since you ask me and i got
nothing else to do anyway:
Kandinsky
Matisse
Picasso
But that is probably not very modern.
De Kooning
Baselitz
Rothko
That is probably modern .
>> perhaps you could indicate a 'good'
Matisse and a 'bad' Matisse.
Are you one of these Matisse Haters too?
regards
Mani Deli
>> Whatever passport he holds is irrelevant.
>
>
>Yes that is probably true but he sure likes American Realism and calls it
>art .
>
>Paul Cadmus :male nudes and pin ups
>Maxfield Parrish :some weird stuff about angels or devils
>Vargas: female nudes and pin ups
>Walt Disney :ducks and other creatures
>The Simpsons: funny comics
>
>
>>>>Can you in a similar post enlighten us all
>on what is a good work of Modern Art and
>what is a bad work of Modern Art and how
>you come to this judgement?
>
>I dont fucking know anything about art but since you ask me and i got
>nothing else to do anyway:
>
>Kandinsky
Art school exercises.
>Matisse
Can't draw and his jellybean colors don't help. Has no ideas beyond
bourgeois subject matter. His work at the cathedral at Vance is total
idiocy. A founding father of no-skill-realism.
>Picasso
Third rate cartoonist who did his cartoons in oil paint big. Draws
better than most all Modern Academics, which isn't saying much. Used
projectors in case you didn't know it. (nothing wrong with that)
>
>But that is probably not very modern.
>
>De Kooning
Schmiery cat vomit with an occasional goo-goo eye thrown in.
>Rothko
Outdone by an average horse blanket.
Mani Deli
wrote:
>
>So, are you against anything that is not representative of something?
I'm not against decorative art and design. It has been done far better
than the Modern Academic stuff hanging in museums posing as
masterpieces. It isn't compared because it doesn't come with
pretensions and show biz.
>Are you suggesting all abstract art is non? I'm curious.
Abstraction is the oldest art form. Anything from Japanese, Egyption,
to Islamic and Tantra etc. is classic abstraction. What I reject as
fine artwork is the Modern Academic variety. I assume that by
abstraction you are referring to that species.
gerberk
gerberk
get your head examined.That is no art and even no skill.Calling Picasso a
third rate cartoonist is very stupid but i like your attitude so keep up the
good work.
regards
max
A hush falls over the rec.arts.fine saloon as the stranger's words
fade into the immediate past. A seemingly trivial comment, yet one
loaded with years of conviction and frustration. The regulars start
eyeing one another waiting for someone to throw the first punch. They
all know it's coming, but from whom? Some begin to roll up their
sleeves, others tuck time-pieces into their boots, spectacles are
quickly handed to the bar-keep along with prized stetsons, and most
take these final few seconds to down the last of their whiskey.
Clement Greenberg attempts to make a hasty unobtrusive exit but is
spotted by his friends just short of the back door and chose to remain
for appearances sake. Yep, this might be a goodun'.
New in these parts, stranger?
max (with apologies and a tip o' the stetson to Charles Bruni)
Paul Mesken
>On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 18:08:01 +0200, "gerberk" <ger...@home.nl> wrote:
>
>>These male nudes and female nudes pin ups are stupid and silly .You better
>>get your head examined.That is no art and even no skill.Calling Picasso a
>>third rate cartoonist is very stupid but i like your attitude so keep up the
>>good work.
>
>A hush falls over the rec.arts.fine saloon as the stranger's words
>fade into the immediate past. A seemingly trivial comment, yet one
>loaded with years of conviction and frustration. The regulars start
>eyeing one another waiting for someone to throw the first punch. They
>all know it's coming, but from whom?
As much as I would like to, don't expect me to do it. He's dutch and
all I can hope for is that at least he ain't Frysian ;-)
Seagull Manager
"gerberk" <ger...@home.nl> wrote in message
news:bcs72m$f97$1...@news4.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...
>
> >> perhaps you could indicate a 'good'
> Matisse and a 'bad' Matisse.
>
> Are you one of these Matisse Haters too?
Are all Matisse's work equally excellent, in your estimation, gerbek? Or are
some better than others? If some are better than others, what distinguishes
the good ones from the not-so-good?
Seagull Manager
What's stupid and silly is calling the "paintings" of Georg Baselitz good
art.
gerberk
like explaining to people that Carlotte Church is not really Maria Callas
It's of no use and who knows anyway
Regards
Seagull Manager" <seagull...@afang.nospamthanks.demon.co.uk> schreef in
bericht news:bcv1jc$lt7$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
Seagull Manager
> It would be of no use explainng that to you.I saw your post on
Cezanne.It's
> like explaining to people that Carlotte Church is not really Maria Callas
>
> It's of no use and who knows anyway
You don't have any basis for saying Matisse is a great painter. That's why
you can't say which of his paintings are his best.
I'll tell you exactly why you like Matisse:
(1) His compositions are very simple, and his colours are bright. As a
result, his work appeals to children, the unsophisticated, and the lazy.
(2) You've been TOLD to like his paintings.
gerberk
His compositions are carefully planned (like a Degas murderplot) and
although they seem simple they are not in fact.Most difficult things have a
way of looking very easy when it's done.
>>his colours are bright
Yes, wonderful and bright aren't they.His colours are the best.An enjoyment
for the soul
>>his work appeals to children, the unsophisticated, and the lazy.
That just shows how good it really is
> (2) You've been TOLD to like his paintings.
>
Yes and i'm very glad about that .
regards
"Seagull Manager" <seagull...@afang.nospamthanks.demon.co.uk> schreef
in bericht news:bd06s7$6hj$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
Protagonist
The reason why I like Matisse is that my mother used to take me to the
Moma as a kid while we spent time looking at his paintings together.
Then I would go back home and draw it all out in crayon and
watercolour.
Quite the contrary of what you say in 1) I think children are quite
sophisticated; they usually understand something before adults do in
social situations and are much more observant in their perceptions
whereas adults tend to be more desensitised. By your argument though,
what you say could also easily be applied to Monet as well as the rest
of the impressionsts as well. In fact, they were criticised by the art
elite of their time and had been accused of those same exact charges
that you mention. Art is beyond technical "perfection"...you can say
that Matisse's works often look unfinished, thinly painted, off-scale,
and a litany of other technical criteria for why his work is either
good or bad, but to give it such value, perhaps we look beyond the
mere aesthetics of its appreciation and see his work as a whole, from
the cultural, historical, and intellectual context.
Regards,
Hadley
Mani Deli
>The reason why I like Matisse is that my mother used to take me to the
>Moma as a kid while we spent time looking at his paintings together.
>Then I would go back home and draw it all out in crayon and
>watercolour.
Did you also do crayons on Mondrian. Now that you are grown up I hope
you advanced to Pollock.
>
>Quite the contrary of what you say in 1) I think children are quite
>sophisticated;
_are more sophisticated than an idiot like Matisse.
>. Art is beyond technical "perfection"...you can say
>that Matisse's works often look unfinished, thinly painted, off-scale,
>and a litany of other technical criteria
Really? Tell that to those who think it is all a subjective matter.
> for why his work is either
>good or bad, but to give it such value, perhaps we look beyond the
>mere aesthetics of its appreciation and see his work as a whole, from cultural, historical, and intellectual context
>
I see his work as a whole. A whole lot of incompetent crap.
Do tell us about the "cultural, historical, and intellectual context."
gerberk
> you advanced to Pollock.
2> > _are more sophisticated than an idiot like Matisse.
3> Really? Tell that to those who think it is all a subjective matter.
4> I see his work as a whole. A whole lot of incompetent crap.
>
You are a comedian aren't you? Either that or some kind of Idiot Genius
regards
Mani Deli
>As long as you keep chatting about Matisse or Picasso being false artists
>without any skills i refuse to take you seriously.You are an American
>without any taste for art what so ever.
>
>regards
You are an incompetent without any skill whatever. I doubt that anyone
who can paint takes you seriously. The worst of Hong Kong schlock
outranks what you show on the net.
gerberk
What a good thing we have a true artist like you around here,
regards
"Mani Deli" <ma...@sympatico.ca> schreef in bericht
news:lihcfvgh50tkssal8...@4ax.com...
Mani Deli
>Thank you for the kinds words Sir,
Perhaps if you ever learn to draw kinder words would be in order.
>
>What a good thing we have a true artist like you around here,
>
>regards
>"Mani Deli" <ma...@sympatico.ca> schreef in bericht
>news:lihcfvgh50tkssal8...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 01:34:23 +0200, "gerberk" <ger...@home.nl> wrote:
>>
>> >As long as you keep chatting about Matisse or Picasso being false artists
>> >without any skills i refuse to take you seriously.You are an American
>> >without any taste for art what so ever.
>> >
and thanks for your kind words.
Seagull Manager
"Protagonist" <maxin...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1982c3ae.03062...@posting.google.com...
>
> Quite the contrary of what you say in 1) I think children are quite
> sophisticated;
Young children have poor visual acuity, relative to older children and
adults. That's why simple shapes and bright colours are more important to
them.
> they usually understand something before adults do in
> social situations and are much more observant in their perceptions
> whereas adults tend to be more desensitised.
Adults understand a hell of a lot that children don't.
> By your argument though,
> what you say could also easily be applied to Monet as well as the rest
> of the impressionsts as well.
Yes, that's true. The Impressionists are disproportionately popular because
of their relatively simple compositions and bright colour. That doesn't mean
their paintings are as bad as Matisse's, though. The good Impressionists are
simply realists who like to paint outdoors and capture atmospheric effects.
> In fact, they were criticised by the art
> elite of their time and had been accused of those same exact charges
> that you mention.
Actually, the main complaints were that they were presenting sketches as
finished work, and were choosing extremely mundane subject matter.
Perfectly reasonable complaints, by my book.
> Art is beyond technical "perfection"...you can say
> that Matisse's works often look unfinished, thinly painted, off-scale,
> and a litany of other technical criteria for why his work is either
> good or bad, but to give it such value, perhaps we look beyond the
> mere aesthetics of its appreciation and see his work as a whole, from
> the cultural, historical, and intellectual context.
The cultural context of Matisse is that he was a talentless individual who
early in his career found that he could promote himself as an artist by
creating shock and
scandal. Thereafter, he concentrated on creating schlock pastiches of
better, 19th century artists.
Dr. Slick
> On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:18:35 +0200, Heisse Scheisse"gerberk" wrote:
>
> >Thank you for the kinds words Sir,
>
> Perhaps if you ever learn to draw kinder words would be in order.
I don't think you have EVER written a kind word on this NG, Mani.
Perhaps if you didn't copy Dali so much, and you had an original
style of your own, you wouldn't feel the need to take other people
down.
Dr. Slick
Paul Mesken
>Mani Deli <ma...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<ptaefvolbo587iavn...@4ax.com>...
>> On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:18:35 +0200, Heisse Scheisse"gerberk" wrote:
>>
>> >Thank you for the kinds words Sir,
>>
>> Perhaps if you ever learn to draw kinder words would be in order.
>
>
> I don't think you have EVER written a kind word on this NG, Mani.
Well, that's not completely true, I believe it was in 19.. Oh no, that
was someone else.
You know, if I ever find the courage to put up my own work and Deli
would call me a "third rate illustrator" I think I would actually read
it as a compliment ;-)
Dr. Slick
> >
> > I don't think you have EVER written a kind word on this NG, Mani.
>
> Well, that's not completely true, I believe it was in 19.. Oh no, that
> was someone else.
>
> You know, if I ever find the courage to put up my own work and Deli
> would call me a "third rate illustrator" I think I would actually read
> it as a compliment ;-)
Paul, I would like to see your work someday...you can NEVER
please everyone, not even, or especially not, yourself. There will
always be people that don't like your work...who cares? There will
usually be a greater number of people who do, assuming you have some
abilities.
I was going to suggest to Mani that he should move to Thailand,
where there are TONS of realistic, "skillfull" artists who are paid to
make Dali replicas. Maybe this would be his true calling?
Slick
Mani Deli
> I don't think you have EVER written a kind word on this NG, Mani.
>
Bouguereau's Flagellation_of_Christ
Check it out at:
http://www.artrenewal.org/images/artists/b/Bouguereau_William/large/The_Flagellation_of_Christ.jpg
Those committed B. haters here would do well to avoid looking at this
work. Perhaps a few artzy fartzies here who feign prudery by claiming
that B's work is little more than porno might gather up some courage
and take close look.
It is in high rez and if you have the ability to download it you will
get some idea of the mastery of the detail and finish.