corporatization of the arts?
Sarah
of the arts. For example, the "Ford" Free Sundays at the Minneapolis
Institute of the Arts in Minnesota (US). Do you think it is just
another way for companies to get into the consumers minds, or a good
thing for the fine arts, since organizations using corporate
sponsorship are gaining support? I would love to hear some of your
comments.
G*rd*n
If one accepts the present role of corporations in American
life generally, then one might as well accept it in the
arts, where it will likely be no different from anywhere
else. Perhaps not so blatant as with sports, one might hope.
--
(<><>) /*/
}"{ G*rd*n }"{ g...@panix.com }"{
{ http://www.etaoin.com | latest new material 1/19/03 <-adv't
C. Enna
kla...@hotmail.com says...
With deep cuts in government art funding at
all levels of government - New Jersey is
cutting ALL funding, I hear - it would be
wonderful if business could or would take
up the slack. In the USA, when communities
look for funds to support local projects,
business is the first choice. It's a battle
to get grant funding, government or otherwise,
due to the stiff competition for grant monies
and the red tape involved. And when government
entities fall on hard times, the arts are
going to be the first to be cut - every time!
The unfortunate fact is that corporations
as well will cut donations to the arts before
they cut donations to charitable causes.
Paul Mesken
IMO it's okay.
The german car brand Audi wanted to give Amsterdam's "Stedelijk
Museum" (The one with Rembrandt's Nightwatch) 12 million if it could
showroom 6 of its cars in the museum (Let's say "Technical Design
meets Fine Arts" :-) However, the city council rejected the offer even
though Audi got the approval of museum director Fuchs (he's gone now
as director). I don't think it's so bad for a corporation wanting to
affiliate itself with art (they're already doing lots for artists,
hiring them for advertising, making available interesting products
like those DPP and Phtalo pigments used in the car industry).
Ofcourse a balance needs to be striken and I think funding from
government is still the preferred way (I believe 1.5 percent of all
costs of government buildings can be spend at art). OTOH a little bit
of commercialism isn't bad either in order to prevent frauds to get
money and give art a bad name. But it's all in the balance.
G*rd*n
| >Hey, I am just curious as to what you guys think about corporatization
| >of the arts. For example, the "Ford" Free Sundays at the Minneapolis
| >Institute of the Arts in Minnesota (US). Do you think it is just
| >another way for companies to get into the consumers minds, or a good
| >thing for the fine arts, since organizations using corporate
| >sponsorship are gaining support? I would love to hear some of your
| >comments.
Paul Mesken <usu...@euronet.nl>:
| IMO it's okay.
|
| The german car brand Audi wanted to give Amsterdam's "Stedelijk
| Museum" (The one with Rembrandt's Nightwatch) 12 million if it could
| showroom 6 of its cars in the museum (Let's say "Technical Design
| meets Fine Arts" :-) However, the city council rejected the offer even
| though Audi got the approval of museum director Fuchs (he's gone now
| as director). I don't think it's so bad for a corporation wanting to
| affiliate itself with art (they're already doing lots for artists,
| hiring them for advertising, making available interesting products
| like those DPP and Phtalo pigments used in the car industry).
|
| Ofcourse a balance needs to be striken and I think funding from
| government is still the preferred way (I believe 1.5 percent of all
| costs of government buildings can be spend at art). OTOH a little bit
| of commercialism isn't bad either in order to prevent frauds to get
| money and give art a bad name. But it's all in the balance.
|
However, both the government and corporations, lacking consciousness,
lack artistic taste and must select the art they support politically,
usually through some form of credentialism. This seems to bring about
a kind of rote, conservative flavor to art it affects -- it acquires
a distinct aura of grant-sucking. As an example one of the artists
I know was able to get funding to cast 3 x 3 foot sidewalk-looking
piece of concrete a break them "artfully". You know, like
actual pieces of sidewalk. (She forebore to stick old chewing
gum and worse on them, thankfully!) Such things do not actually
appeal to more than a handful of people but they can be the
basis of a good line of talk, that is, rhetoric to be inserted
in a grant application. I think a more vigorous and interesting
sort of art is likely to come out of personal support by
individuals. After the skimmings of the '90s, there ought to
be quite a few rich folks around who should get to work with
their money and fund art they like.
Erik A. Mattila
Benvenuto Bufano, the San Francisco sculptor who cut off his finger and
mailed it to Woodrow Wilson in protest of WWI. His subsequent work
wasn't overtly about war - many St. Francis', Sun Yat Sen, and so on,
but the bulk of his work was shaped like a finger. Critics often
accused him of an obsession with the phallus, forgetting the finger
episode. So the anti-war motif continued through his work until his
death in 1970. Henry Miller wrote: "[Bufano] will outlive our
civilization and probably be better known, better understood, both as a
man and artist, five thousand years hence."
Erik
Paul Mesken
<emat...@oco.net> wrote:
>Oops, hit the wrong button -
I hit the right one but we don't have intercontinentals. The stuff
will be shipped somewhere next week and arrive in about two ;-)
C. Enna
says...
>I understand that Oprah and Bill Cosby both fund American art.
>Oprah mostly buys Black American artists. Must have made a
>difference.
>I wish that their galleries were accessible on the web.
>Thur
American philanthropists have ALWAYS contributed
strongly to the arts, and continue to do so.
Just a few examples for the uninformed - and
you can find these examples in every nook
and cranny of the USA:
Dale Carnegie built NUMEROUS libraries in towns
across the USA, many of which remain in business
to this day as the only library building in the
towns where they exist. Many others have been
shut down and/or the building razed to make room
for newer, larger libraries.
In Austin, Texas, the University is currently
constructing a new Museum of Fine Arts totally
funded by private contributions from the hi-tech
meglamillionares in that city. And the City of
Austin has likewise benefitted from their largesse,
currently building yet another Fine Arts center
in that same city.
http://www.blantonmuseum.org/
http://www.austinlinks.com/Arts/
Where I live, a single individual - Jackie Spencer -
built a state-of-the-art theater funded solely with
her money and made it a gift to the community in
her will. The ongoing operation of the theater
would be impossible without her continuing funding.
For the last five years it has brought to this
remote location world-class performers in all
types of performing arts as well as traveling
broadway productions.
http://www.spencertheater.com/
Americans are the most generous people ON EARTH!
And what do they receive in return for their
generosity??? In places outside the USA, a
kick in the teeth!!!
G*rd*n
| ...
| And what do they receive in return for their
| generosity??? In places outside the USA, a
| kick in the teeth!!!
Inside the USA, too. From their generous neighbors.
C. Enna
says...
>
>x-no-archive: yes
>Try to understand, we are humans too.
What you need to understand or come to grips
with is that the GOVERNMENT policies of the
USA do not have anything to do with individual
or corporate or church donations to the poor
of the world. Most Americans - the ones I know
anyway - have long abhorred the GOVERNMENT
policies of give-aways to foreign governments
that then waste the largesse by black marketing
for the benefit of the rulers of said countries.
Very little 'trickle down' in many of the
countries receiving American goods. It's the
PRIVATE or CHARITABLE organizations who do a
better job of monitoring where the 'gifts' go
that have the most success, from what I know.
Now let's get back to talking ART sponsorship!
It's getting far too political here, IMO,
and I'm referring to the general trend of threads
in this forum of late...
WoN ereH
>It's getting far too political here, IMO,
>and I'm referring to the general trend of threads
>in this forum of late...
Agreed. Especially since it seems those that most bash America and its
grandiose hopes for the world only feel that way because they would rather the
rest of the world suffer in poverty and depression like themselves. Typical
human behavior of course, studies show people would rather give up a bonus if
it means someone they know would receive an even higher bonus, but such short
sidedness can be overcome with a bit of self awareness.
Pity to see people who call themselves *artists* with so little imagination.
Bush is a moron? Oh, how original is that? Don't know about Bush's IQ, but
he's obviously far smarter than those who only whine and gripe their way thru
life.
D
Paul Mesken
>Now let's get back to talking ART sponsorship!
>It's getting far too political here, IMO,
>and I'm referring to the general trend of threads
>in this forum of late...
>
The phenomenon is not exclusively manifesting itself on this forum/ng,
it's happening all over usenet.
The way I see it r.a.f. seems to be concerned mainly with the
following types of threads :
- World history
- Politics
- The News
- Culture (both foreign and our own)
- Trolling
- Chick fights between Marilyn and Alison
- Flame wars about what is art and what is not
- Philosophy and Psychology in general
- Dilettantism
- Programming
- Invitations to art sites
- Critique and flames on art on those art sites
- Questions about who made the painting with the clouds in it
- Mani Deli and why he's the son of Satan
- Stuff which has something to do with art (like sponsorship)
- Techniques
- Material
- Experiences with suppliers of materials
Now, IMO an ng dedicated to fine arts should be about oil painting,
mediums, how to make your own gesso (and how to get rid of those tiny
air bubbles in it), experiences with different pigments, brushes, etc
and not about starting yet another flame war :-)
Neil Maxwell
Any funding of the arts is a good thing. Even if there are
constraints or limits, the artists can choose their willingness to
subvert their message for cash, or even be unaffected by it, if their
vision is acceptible by the sponsor.
Even blatantly non-commercial artist Joan Brown accepted commissions
for her obelisks, as they enabled her to express her vision in a way
she'd be unable to without external funding.
Money is just a tool, and tools are good when used properly.
Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer
http://www.rcip.com/nerdgerl
news:20030303104149...@mb-mo.aol.com...
> >Now let's get back to talking ART sponsorship!
> >It's getting far too political here, IMO,
> >and I'm referring to the general trend of threads
> >in this forum of late...
>
> grandiose hopes for the world only feel that way because they would rather
the
> rest of the world suffer in poverty and depression like themselves. Typical
> human behavior of course, studies show people would rather give up a bonus
if
> it means someone they know would receive an even higher bonus, but such
short
> sidedness can be overcome with a bit of self awareness.
>
> Pity to see people who call themselves *artists* with so little imagination.
> Bush is a moron?
Well SURE he is!!! Didn't you hear about the fire in his library? Both books
burned to a crisp!
Chris
"WoN ereH" <won...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20030303104149...@mb-mo.aol.com...
imagination.
> Bush is a moron? Oh, how original is that? Don't know about Bush's IQ,
but
> he's obviously far smarter than those who only whine and gripe their way
thru
> life.
>
Or, as one wag pointed out, why is it that the people who insist that Bush
is a moron are the ones who are constantly outsmarted by him?
Chris
NightMist
<http://www.rcip.com/nerdgerl> wrote:
>"WoN ereH" <won...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
>news:20030303104149...@mb-mo.aol.com...
>> Bush is a moron?
>
>Well SURE he is!!! Didn't you hear about the fire in his library? Both books
>burned to a crisp!
>
and he hadn't even finished coloring in one of them.....
--
everybody is somebodys chew toy
NightMist
wrote:
>Now, IMO an ng dedicated to fine arts should be about oil painting,
>mediums, how to make your own gesso (and how to get rid of those tiny
>air bubbles in it), experiences with different pigments, brushes, etc
>and not about starting yet another flame war :-)
>
Yeah, well Da Vinci was wrong!
Oil painting is _not_ the wave of the future.
Far to fussy to make and use, and who wants to wait 6 months for a
painting to dry?
It's merely a passing fad, everybody will be back to painting in egg
tempra in a couple of years.
Barbara the heretic
Paul Mesken
wrote:
>On Mon, 03 Mar 2003 18:38:39 +0100, Paul Mesken <usu...@euronet.nl>
>wrote:
>
>>Now, IMO an ng dedicated to fine arts should be about oil painting,
>>mediums, how to make your own gesso (and how to get rid of those tiny
>>air bubbles in it), experiences with different pigments, brushes, etc
>>and not about starting yet another flame war :-)
>>
>Yeah, well Da Vinci was wrong!
>
>Oil painting is _not_ the wave of the future.
>Far to fussy to make and use, and who wants to wait 6 months for a
>painting to dry?
I told you not to use stand oil straight from the bottle ;-)
>It's merely a passing fad, everybody will be back to painting in egg
>tempra in a couple of years.
>
Egg tempera?!?! That's even older than painting in oil. You need
special support (real gesso which is quite a drag to make right), you
can't even get a half decent gloss with it and it practically dries in
the brush.
Besides : acrylics, egg tempera, water paint, gouache, it's all kid's
stuff. It was only meant as learning tool, an easy step up to the real
thing : oil. Oil is _worked_ with big brushes and painting knives,
real men do it with oil.
Chris
"NightMist" <nigh...@uir.zzn.com> wrote in message
news:3e63b074...@news.madbbs.com...
Except real men, they only paint in true fresco (at least according Big
Mike) :)
Chris
Paul Mesken
Paul Mesken
Nah, wall decorators paint in fresco.
WoN ereH
>books
>>>burned to a crisp!
>>>
>>and he hadn't even finished coloring in one of them.....
This was the joke going around about Reagan! Guess it's making the rounds
again now that sex jokes about the prez are passe....
Debra
G*rd*n
| news:20030303104149...@mb-mo.aol.com...
| > Pity to see people who call themselves *artists* with so little
| imagination.
| > Bush is a moron? Oh, how original is that? Don't know about Bush's IQ,
| but
| > he's obviously far smarter than those who only whine and gripe their way
| thru
| > life.
"Chris" <n...@this.address>:
| Or, as one wag pointed out, why is it that the people who insist that Bush
| is a moron are the ones who are constantly outsmarted by him?
Who? I can't think of a single member of the set you
specify, that is, a person who (a) thinks Bush is a moron
and (b) was outsmarted by him. I trust we all agree that
because one person has more power than another does not mean
that the first has specifically outsmarted the second.
C. Enna
says...
>now that sex jokes about the prez are passe....
I gave up smoking cigars because of Klinton!
J's Place
NO! Not Bush's Brain on drugs.
Bush's Brain is the title of a newly released
book on the influence of one Carl Rove over
Bush ever since Bush's pre-politics days.
A fascinating read for anyone interested in
the "other president" of the USA.
Bush's Brain: How Karl Rove Made
George W. Bush Presidential
by James C. Moore (Author), Wayne Slater (Author)
(February 2003)
But again I ask - what does this have to
do with Fine Art???
I at least created a painting back when the
first "Gulf War" was imminent, titled Mother
of Battle. Wanna see it?
http://www.zianet.com/jaxart/people/mombattl.jpg
G*rd*n
| NO! Not Bush's Brain on drugs.
|
| Bush's Brain is the title of a newly released
| book on the influence of one Carl Rove over
| Bush ever since Bush's pre-politics days.
| A fascinating read for anyone interested in
| the "other president" of the USA.
|
| Bush's Brain: How Karl Rove Made
| George W. Bush Presidential
| by James C. Moore (Author), Wayne Slater (Author)
| (February 2003)
|
| But again I ask - what does this have to
| do with Fine Art???
|
| I at least created a painting back when the
| first "Gulf War" was imminent, titled Mother
| of Battle. Wanna see it?
|
| http://www.zianet.com/jaxart/people/mombattl.jpg
The last time I paid any plastic-artistic attention to the
news, it was the massacre in Tien An Men Square:
http://www.etaoin.com/gcf02n.htm
(A parody of the Chinese flag; an abstraction of an
abstraction.)
I wrote some words about the first Gulf War which you can
see at http://www.etaoin.com/texts/jan14.htm
I suppose they'll do fine for the second, third, and so on.
The words and pictures change, the slaughter continues, and
those who rejoice in slaughter continue to rejoice. Goya must
have still been young when he bothered to do _Desastres_de_la_guerra_.
G*rd*n
| >now that sex jokes about the prez are passe....
ce...@noemailever.com (C. Enna):
| I gave up smoking cigars because of Klinton!
So, who says that Slick didn't do any good?
NightMist
wrote:
Oil causes latex to degrade, _real_ men use water based.
Barbara
chuckling
Paul Mesken
wrote:
>Oil causes latex to degrade, _real_ men use water based.
>
_real_ men don't use latex, they let their army roam freely, fertilize
the world! Besides : water is a female element, fire is a male element
and oil burns like Hell so _real_ men still go for oil :-)
Ofcourse nothing stops women from using water, they can paint flowers
or something ;-)
[ This flame war is not really taking off so far ]
Herbert Ward
reminds me more of terrorism, which specifically targets civilians,
and which deliberately hides in civilian population centers.
As for Karl Rove, I'm sure Mr. Bush would be among the first to give
him credit for his contributions.
As for Mr. Bush's "brain", I (and many others) have been pleasantly
surprised by this man who talked of "Grecians" just a few years ago.
G*rd*n
| _real_ men don't use latex, they let their army roam freely, fertilize
| the world! Besides : water is a female element, fire is a male element
| and oil burns like Hell so _real_ men still go for oil :-)
By this argument, real real men would go strictly encaustic,
that is, if they couldn't paint with blood, guts, iron, hot
lead, crude oil, broken glass, and dynamite.
However, to my observation, the only truly male art is
peeing in the snow. Girls can do it, of course, but not
with quite the same flair.
Oliver Gili
"Sarah" <kla...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7a802521.03030...@posting.google.com...
> Hey, I am just curious as to what you guys think about corporatization
> of the arts. For example, the "Ford" Free Sundays at the Minneapolis
> Institute of the Arts in Minnesota (US). Do you think it is just
> another way for companies to get into the consumers minds, or a good
> thing for the fine arts, since organizations using corporate
> sponsorship are gaining support? I would love to hear some of your
> comments.
Depends completely on the corporation doing the funding. I point to the
recent children's book award set up by Nestle, which 90% of the major
children's book authors said absolutely no way that their books could be
entered into such a competition, and be thus be associated with the
appalling actions of Nestle. The award was scrapped.
Oliver
C. Enna
says...
>_real_ men don't use latex, they let their army roam freely, fertilize
>the world!
REAL MEN get a vasectomy!
Paul Mesken
Yeah, keep telling it to yourself, perhaps you'll get over it ;-)
C. Enna
says...
>Depends completely on the corporation doing the funding.
Well, you can't open a magazine, at least in the USA,
these days without seeing an ad for Absolut Vodka
featuring some 'famous' artist's design. I'd hardly
consider that corporation's motives philanthropic,
but apparently not many artists have turned them
down when it came to commissioning their design.
>The award was scrapped.
It's called "kicking the gift horse in the teeth!"
Even gift horses have their limits...
NightMist
>Paul Mesken <usu...@euronet.nl>:
>| _real_ men don't use latex, they let their army roam freely, fertilize
>| the world! Besides : water is a female element, fire is a male element
>| and oil burns like Hell so _real_ men still go for oil :-)
>| ...
>
>By this argument, real real men would go strictly encaustic,
>that is, if they couldn't paint with blood, guts, iron, hot
>lead, crude oil, broken glass, and dynamite.
>
>However, to my observation, the only truly male art is
>peeing in the snow. Girls can do it, of course, but not
>with quite the same flair.
>
Oh sure!
Bring in the fact that men can pee in the woods without soaking their
socks, even do calligraphy if they want.
Women are still capable of that "Mommy Voice" that makes the biggest
strongest scariest guy cringe and hide.
Barbara
NightMist
wrote:
>On Tue, 04 Mar 2003 20:10:17 GMT, nigh...@uir.zzn.com (NightMist)
If _real_ men don't use latex, that would explain why _real_ men have
calloused hands. I shudder to consider the other obvious callouses.
In which case I suppose _real_ men may as well use oil, they need the
time consuming distraction.
Lysistrata
Paul Mesken
wrote:
>On Tue, 04 Mar 2003 22:27:34 +0100, Paul Mesken <usu...@euronet.nl>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 04 Mar 2003 20:10:17 GMT, nigh...@uir.zzn.com (NightMist)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Oil causes latex to degrade, _real_ men use water based.
>>>
>>
>>_real_ men don't use latex, they let their army roam freely, fertilize
>>the world! Besides : water is a female element, fire is a male element
>>and oil burns like Hell so _real_ men still go for oil :-)
>>
>>Ofcourse nothing stops women from using water, they can paint flowers
>>or something ;-)
>>
>>[ This flame war is not really taking off so far ]
>>
>
>If _real_ men don't use latex, that would explain why _real_ men have
>calloused hands.
Now that you mention it, my left hand does seem more calloused than
the right one ;-)
Oliver Gili
"C. Enna" <ce...@noemailever.com> wrote in message
news:3e66...@news.zianet.com...
> In article <b43fm9$nf4$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
Redo...@ogili.freeserve.co.uk
> says...
>
> >Depends completely on the corporation doing the funding.
>
> Well, you can't open a magazine, at least in the USA,
> these days without seeing an ad for Absolut Vodka
> featuring some 'famous' artist's design. I'd hardly
> consider that corporation's motives philanthropic,
> but apparently not many artists have turned them
> down when it came to commissioning their design.
>
Bell, or a host of other major Corporations.
> >The award was scrapped.
>
> It's called "kicking the gift horse in the teeth!"
> Even gift horses have their limits...
No its called "having a conscience" or perhaps a "small triumph of morality
over money"... Nestle have an abysmal record ... just do a bit of research
on them.
Oliver
G*rd*n
| Only a few with an exceptional aim.
| Most of us can't hit a hole 18 inches diameter
| from say, a foot or so (variable!), but can hit our
| socks without trying.
You need to practice!
Wasn't some famous Renaissance artistic talent "discovered"
as a child because of his artful pissing? This was in
Italy, though, so it must have been on a rock, because there
isn't much snow.
Paul Mesken
>x-no-archive: yes
>Only a few with an exceptional aim.
>Most of us can't hit a hole 18 inches diameter
>from say, a foot or so (variable!), but can hit our
>socks without trying.
Speak for yourself, any man can write his own name with it (although
sometimes the aim is off, sometimes the beam even splits and you shoot
in two directions at the same time! :-)
C. Enna
says...
>No its called "having a conscience" or perhaps a "small triumph of morality
>over money"... Nestle have an abysmal record ... just do a bit of research
>on them.
It's ALL about money!!!!!!!!! Where do you live
that artists have the luxury of remaining artists
without earning MONEY??? I think I may want
to move where artists can thumb their noses at
the money-earning world.
Money is what keeps people in food, clothing
and shelter - ie; keeps artists from being
starving artists. Moral stands aren't going
to keep you solvent, but if that's what makes
you comfortable, who's to argue.
C. Enna
>I suppose _real_ men may as well use oil
Uhhhh, Vaseline...or perhaps it's called
petroleum jelly where you live.
C. Enna
says...
No matter how you shake or dance,
The last few drops go down your pants.
Paul Mesken
That's right.
It's an excercise in futility to try contain the "beast" ;-)
Neil Maxwell
Now, *that's* hard on latex. Water-based is less risky...
Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer
Oliver Gili
Redo...@ogili.freeserve.co.uk
> says...
>
> >No its called "having a conscience" or perhaps a "small triumph of
morality
> >over money"... Nestle have an abysmal record ... just do a bit of
research
> >on them.
>
> It's ALL about money!!!!!!!!! Where do you live
> that artists have the luxury of remaining artists
> without earning MONEY??? I think I may want
> to move where artists can thumb their noses at
> the money-earning world.
If its "ALL about money" then you are in the wrong business.... have you
thought about the world of banking? marketing? or advertising.....
>
> Money is what keeps people in food, clothing
> and shelter - ie; keeps artists from being
> starving artists. Moral stands aren't going
> to keep you solvent, but if that's what makes
> you comfortable, who's to argue.
>
Solvency *is* important, but taking a large hand out from a major coporation
with an abysmal record, is akin to taking money from the Medellin cartel in
order to make them look good.
Oliver
C. Enna
neil.m...@nospam.intel.com says...
>Now, *that's* hard on latex. Water-based is less risky...
I wasn't thinking of 'with latex.'
I was referring to the 'bird in the hand'
and you're referring to the 'bird in the bush!'