White ink and water colour
Bob & Dale Ford
reading a book that mentioned white ink was a quite common old masters
method. I have used india ink with watercolours, but I don't think I
have ever even seen white ink. Has any one here ever used white ink?
Dale
Zoe Beit
>
>Has any one here ever used white ink?
Sure. You can get it from various mfrs.
I much prefer the ROTRING brand of colored
inks. And as for watercolors, the old
standby for most artists is the gouache
Chinese White which can be used in a pen much
as ink is - assuming we're talking about
a DIP PEN and not a fountain-type pen.
Rotring inks, OTH, can be used in
technical drawing pens because the pigment
is so finely ground it won't 'usually'
clog.
keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com
it declare it not to be watercolour don't want you even using the name
watercolour. Some watercolorists secretly use inks in the underpainting,
some even use small amounts of diluted acrylic - some mix water colour with
a small amount of acrylic medium.
in my opinion - hang the purists - they just want market advantage.
take care: Keith
Bob & Dale Ford <bdf...@mb.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3C3FB763...@mb.sympatico.ca...
Peter H.M. Brooks
keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com <scot...@rogers.com> wrote in
> You may want to keep your use of it a secret. The purists get excited
about
> it declare it not to be watercolour don't want you even using the name
> watercolour. Some watercolorists secretly use inks in the
underpainting,
> some even use small amounts of diluted acrylic - some mix water colour
with
> a small amount of acrylic medium.
>
> in my opinion - hang the purists - they just want market advantage.
>
paper, then it is not a watercolour, but gouache. The suggestion, by
implication, that gouache is some sort of inferior second cousin to
watercolour is also strange to me.
--
"I became tuned in on the network of neurological signals and cellular
wisdoms that radiate
hundreds and millions per second" - Timothy Leary
Zoe Beit
>
>You may want to keep your use of it a secret. The purists get excited about
>it declare it not to be watercolour don't want you even using the name
>watercolour.
Well, the purists perhaps never make mistakes
when working in watercolor. If you've ever
tried to scrape away a watercolor mistake,
especially if using dye-based colors, you know
what a godsend Chinese White is - I've even
used that typewriter correction fluid a time
or two when no Chinese White was on hand!
keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com
already contain Chinese white put there by the manufacturer.
I have read that there are certain effects in the English landscape that
cannot be got without adding Chinese white.
take care:Keith
Peter H.M. Brooks <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
news:a1q2fa$j0a$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
Bob & Dale Ford
original water colour creed. It is some thing that has been developed in the
past 100 years or so. White ink is considered an old master technique. I
bought some and will try it out. I intend to use it with a brush and not a
pen.
Dale
Peter H.M. Brooks
Bob & Dale Ford <bdf...@mb.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> Yes I was taught a similar creed however it seems that this creed is
not the
> original water colour creed. It is some thing that has been developed
in the
> past 100 years or so. White ink is considered an old master technique.
I
> bought some and will try it out. I intend to use it with a brush and
not a
> pen.
>
I think that part of the reason is that using white ink is seen as
lazy - it is harder than thinking out where the white spaces go.
I am not sure I agree, using masking fluid or a sponge to lift off areas
of colour seems just as 'lazy' to me!
Certainly some people consider these matters of technique something to
get all worked up about. I think that the results are more important - I
look forward to hearing how it turns out for you.
Peter H.M. Brooks
Zoe Beit <zo...@noemailever.com> wrote in
pretty well, particularly if you keep the paper wet.
Peter H.M. Brooks
> Peter: It's even more ridiculous when the purists buy water colours
that
> already contain Chinese white put there by the manufacturer.
>
> I have read that there are certain effects in the English landscape
that
> cannot be got without adding Chinese white.
>
I'm not sure it is ridiculous - the purists don't mind it being used to
modify an existing colour (though they may object to it being opaque
when water colours should be transparent) they object to it being put
down raw for clouds and such like.
Edward
Whereas in oil, acrylic or even gouache WHITE is very very important and
even mandatory,
in water colour (aquarelle) it is not.
White was used in ancient Chinese and Japanese techniques and it was
used extensively
in Mid-European schools of XIVI-XIX cc.
But for the most part it was NOT normally used to correct mistakes or
lift colours -
that's sloppy way and pure indication of lack of skills. It probably
ought to be used for subtle
colour effects and only upon necessity.
After all, one of the main advantages of aquarelle is transperancy.
And by applying white here and there - everywhere when one is too lazy
to think in advance and work through properly - is really bad way.
------
Edward
Peter H.M. Brooks
Edward <dx...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> White was used in ancient Chinese and Japanese techniques and it was
> used extensively
> in Mid-European schools of XIVI-XIX cc.
>
sticks) and red ink. I must say that the technique of using an ink stick
and the range of brush strokes traditionally used in their calligraphic
paintings is very satisfying.
Zoe Beit
>
>Yes I was taught a similar creed however it seems that this creed is not the
>original water colour creed.
I forgot to mention the use of acrylic
to "correct" or enhance a watercolor.
I have used acrylic whites to accentuate
landscape elements - snow on a mountain
peak, clouds that look too dull, etc.
I would label these as "mixed media"
paintings if exhibited for sale.
keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com
transparent washes. yes manufacturers play with the transparency range to
extend their product line. there are many water colourists who don't care
about the passages system of building mood and form that expresses the
characteristics of water colour interacting with the paper being used.
I exclude alizarin crimson from my palette because it's a fugitive colour
and I try to use only stable colours - but that is my system and not
necessarily yours.
take care: keith
dkra <dk...@mmi.ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:dkra-13010...@user-2ivfj0u.dialup.mindspring.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> In article <ff608.11441$iM....@news1.bloor.is>, "keith o'connor
> (tinmangallery.com" <scot...@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> > Peter: It's even more ridiculous when the purists buy water colours that
> > already contain Chinese white put there by the manufacturer.
>
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> From what I've read, these colors with added white (generally zinc white
> PW4 or titanium white PW6) are "hues" trying to mimic an original pure
> pigment which was opaque or semi-opaque.
>
> Examples:
> Opaque or
semi-opaque
> pure pigment it is
> Watercolor Hue Composition trying to mimic
>
> Sennelier Cobalt Green 856 PB28+PG7+PW6 PG50
> Holbein Lemon Yellow W033/W233 PY3+PW6 PY31
> Schmincke Mountain Blue 480 PW5+PB29+PG7 Natural azurite
(PB30?)
> Schmincke Cerulean Blue Tone 481 PW4+PB15:3 PB35
> Winsor & Newton Winsor Emerald 708 PG7+PW4+PY175 PG21
>
> I have been going nuts trying to keep track of all the "recipes" various
> paint manufacturers use to make their paints. The better manufacturers at
> least supply a technical data sheet or brochure listing pigment
> composition of each paint in their range, if they don't already list this
> information on the paint tube or pan.
>
> Based on these technical data sheets, I have been putting together some
> lists for each major watercolor brand, which contain:
> (a) each paint in the range, sorted by name; and
> (b) each paint in the range, sorted by Color Index Name.
>
> For example, Alizarin Crimson would likely be the first paint in most (a)
> lists, but all of the blues (e.g. PB15 or PB15:1) would be likely be
> listed first in the (b) lists.
>
> Comparing across lists, it's interesting to see how the same pigment may
> appear under different names, and how many "hues" are not labeled as such.
>
> -- dkra
>
> --
> **********************************************
> To send private e-mail, first subtract two thousand and one.
Bob & Dale Ford
"Peter H.M. Brooks" wrote:
> Bob & Dale Ford <bdf...@mb.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>
> > Yes I was taught a similar creed however it seems that this creed is
> not the
> > original water colour creed. It is some thing that has been developed
> in the
> > past 100 years or so. White ink is considered an old master technique.
> I
> > bought some and will try it out. I intend to use it with a brush and
> not a
> > pen.
> >
> I think that part of the reason is that using white ink is seen as
> lazy - it is harder than thinking out where the white spaces go.
>
> I am not sure I agree, using masking fluid or a sponge to lift off areas
> of colour seems just as 'lazy' to me!
>
> Certainly some people consider these matters of technique something to
> get all worked up about. I think that the results are more important - I
> look forward to hearing how it turns out for you.
>
Yeah really it is a debate of technique additive vs subtractive. And I say
what ever works:-)
Dale
Bob & Dale Ford
Edward wrote:
So that destroys the spontaneity in the work if all planning is done ahead
of time. I finish the work and want to add a white highlight on a rock. I
can't, so chuck it all in the garbage. Why should water colours be
restricted by so many rules and not oil painters????? Check out how Rembrant
used the paints (and inks along with it), then Blake. As well as the
historical examples you mentioned, they didn't follow these rules. Why
should we? Why is it lazy now? Why is adding white after the work is
completed a bad way? If the painting is a stronger piece of work because of
doing some thing "bad" does it really matter? What is worse a painting that
isn't as good as it could be or following some set of rules that no one know
who created?
I also paint in oils. The transition to and from has gotten me thinking
about some of the rules of how to do a good water colour. I never had china
white but you know what who actually said the white had to be the paper? Do
you know who said it, who made that rule because I don't. And I was taught
that frisket was for people who couldn't control the medium either.
Also not all water colour pigments are transparent. They have quite the
range in transparency, quite the range, some are semi opaque and some even
more so. Lifting doesn't always work due to staining, so do you think it is
lazy? I admit I used to be a purist but now I find these rules quite
limiting.
Dale
>
>
> ------
> Edward
keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com
keith
Bob & Dale Ford <bdf...@mb.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3C4234A3...@mb.sympatico.ca...
keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com
derogatory tone - an excluded person not good enough to belong to the proper
group.
It caters to the need for negative stroking due to parental problems but of
course that does not concern you. You need to make them bleed - pay for
their sin of laziness.
It is often used by the sanctimonious religious. Condemn them to hell for
their laziness.
Depersonalise them like calling the enemy geeks etc. They do not belong in
our society.
Your a great man Mr. Edward
build up yourself by putting down others
making sure they stay down by naming them as lazy
in Canada they made laws that took away the Indians tractors so they could
not grow food - then called them lazy.
you take away their spirit
and call them lazy
yes you are a great man mr. Edward
Keith(the old philosopher)
Edward <dx...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3C414C54...@yahoo.com...
Edward
Thank you, I know.
> build up yourself by putting down others
> making sure they stay down by naming them as lazy
I don't need to do that. I am neither ambitious, nor splenetic.
Is not in wont to nail other into the ground.
You have other guy for this... what's his name? Monte Guerdis?
And just to show how imperfect I am myself I can tell you that I am very
lazy,
in particular - I am too lazy to look for some dozen of references to
authoritative sources
regarding white colour in aquarelle...
If I say so it means nothing (because I am humble person, a nobody) but
when some authority would express opinion about it - that might find
more attention.
Mmmm.
On second thought - hardly so.
I noticed that most people tend to throw everything (that contradicts
somehow) directly into garbage can, without thinking
too much.
------
Edward
keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com
Keithnews:dkra-13010...@user-38lc0qs.dialup.mindspring.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> In article <mco08.13401$iM....@news1.bloor.is>, "keith o'connor
> (tinmangallery.com" <scot...@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > I exclude alizarin crimson from my palette because it's a fugitive
colour
> > and I try to use only stable colours - but that is my system and not
> > necessarily yours.
>
> months and have seen for myself which pigments are trustworthy and which
> are not (there have been some surprises).
>
> I've chosen quinacridone/diketo-pyrrolo-pyrrole PR N/A (e.g. Winsor &
> Newton Permanent Carmine 479) as a lightfast substitute for Alizarin
> Crimson. This color is also available from Schmincke as Madder Red Dark
> 354.
Monte Guerdis
I use a range of opaque whites, from inks to gouache, but the most
interesting thing I have found to play with is this strange powdered form of
opaquer for use in graphic design applications (from the pre-digital age).
HOWEVER, I can NOT for MONEY recall the name of that stuff. It is sold in
little glass jars...You add water into the jar via the brush and mix up the
desired opacity, then there ya go.
I normally only use the whites for finishing layers, of course, or for fine
line work before applying sealants.
MG
Monte Guerdis
> You may want to keep your use of it a secret. The purists get excited
about
> it declare it not to be watercolour don't want you even using the name
> watercolour. Some watercolorists secretly use inks in the underpainting,
> some even use small amounts of diluted acrylic - some mix water colour
with
> a small amount of acrylic medium.
>
> in my opinion - hang the purists - they just want market advantage.
Don't ever listen to anyone who calls themselves a "watercolorist".
It's always better to be a painter than a purist. ;)
MG