art
hel...@my-dejanews.com
waiting at a railroad station. Does anyone out there know of a print like
this? I am told the soldier has a patch on his shoulder representing the
ninth infantry division. Can anyone help me out?
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
lanc...@hotmail.com
help oils to dry faster? Which would you recommend of these three? Copal
medium, Grumbacher painting medium III, or Liquin?
I got a few more masonite questions, would it be better to use an oil base
primer over tempered masonite or use the acrylic gesso anyhow? Is there other
steps to take before using oil primer? After? I thought oil primer and acrylic
gesso were the same with the exception of linseed oil? If I'm right (which I
doubt) why don't they call it oil gesso?
What is masonite made of?
-=lw=-
Gary Morrow
> Can anyone recommend an oil medium, or a "cocktail" of mediums, that would
> help oils to dry faster? Which would you recommend of these three? Copal
> medium, Grumbacher painting medium III, or Liquin?
>
I'm using liquin but find that it dries TOO quickly!! Can anyone recommend
a ready made medium which has a longer drying time.
Gary.
--
Gary Morrow
Multimedia Programmer
Audio Visual Media Services
Strathclyde University
Email : g.mo...@strath.ac.uk
http://homepages.strath.ac.uk/~ras95339
A. B. Sieze
>
> Can anyone recommend an oil medium, or a "cocktail" of mediums, that would
>help oils to dry faster? Which would you recommend of these three? Copal
>medium, Grumbacher painting medium III, or Liquin?
I've responded to this already but repeat here -- use Cobalt drier with
whatever medium you are now using whether or not it contains
copal varnish or damar varnish. Stand oil and sun-thickened linseed
oil when used as mediums also dry faster than plain linseed oil.
Adding a third element such as varnish aids the drying time too.
But the cobalt drier is a sure-fire quick-set remedy.
> I got a few more masonite questions, would it be better to use an oil base
>primer over tempered masonite
First of all, find untempered if you can. If you're using tempered then
be sure to sand the entire surface with EXTRA course sandpaper.
I use an electric sander for this purpose, sanding the entire sheet
of board before beginning to cut it into sizes I plan to use. Sanding
of untempered is preferred also for that matter.
I would not bother with an oil based primer. I have always used
acrylic -- even a good quality acrylic house paint with anti-fungal
additives is a good choice for priming.
> I thought oil primer and acrylic
>gesso were the same with the exception of linseed oil? If I'm right (which I
>doubt) why don't they call it oil gesso?
Acrylic gesso is the latter-day replacement for the old
traditional rabbit skin glue size and white lead primer
that used to be the mainstay of oil painters working on
canvas. I don't know where you got the idea that acrylic
contains linseed oil but I refer you to Ralph Mayer's ARTISTS
HANDBOOK to educate yourself on these matters. You
can find a copy in any good library. Abby.
lanc...@hotmail.com
ab...@unomail.com (A. B. Sieze) wrote:
nrp1.dejanews.com>, lanc...@hotmail.com says...
-snip-
>
> > I thought oil primer and acrylic
> >gesso were the same with the exception of linseed oil? If I'm right (which I
> >doubt) why don't they call it oil gesso?
>
> Acrylic gesso is the latter-day replacement for the old
> traditional rabbit skin glue size and white lead primer
> that used to be the mainstay of oil painters working on
> canvas. I don't know where you got the idea that acrylic
> contains linseed oil but I refer you to Ralph Mayer's ARTISTS
> HANDBOOK to educate yourself on these matters. You
> can find a copy in any good library. Abby.
>
>
Acrylic and oil don't mix, I didn't mean to suggest that they did.
I thought that they both had similar grounds, but one is linseed oil base and
the other acrylic.
Charles Eicher
> Can anyone recommend an oil medium, or a "cocktail" of mediums, that would
> help oils to dry faster? Which would you recommend of these three? Copal
> medium, Grumbacher painting medium III, or Liquin?
We get this question a lot in r.a.f, and I was just thinking, why is it
that everyone needs oil paints to dry quicker? I think a lot of people are
used to working straight on a dry surface, but that doesn't make use of
some of the best properties of oil painting. Most people can only "paint
in" to wet paints, which blends the applied color with the wet base color.
With proper application of oil media, you can paint "wet on wet" with less
mixing. If you're careful, you can paint over freshly applied wet paint and
not drag up any of the undercolor. That's part of the whole "fat over thin"
thing, you can apply fatter (more media) paint over a relatively thin
paint, it will flow over the paint and not drag it up. There are a bunch of
tricks for this, they're hard to explain in words, but easy to demonstrate
at the pallette. Its all part of figuring out how to work the media and the
paint to their best effects. Just keep at it, you'll figure out your own
tricks and favorite methods.
Anyway.. Thickened Stand Oil is a good substitute for a dryer. It gives a
lot of thickness to the paint, and allows it to stand up to overpainting
wet-over-wet. Also some of the varnishes add a bit of stickiness and help
the paint flow. And its always important to regulate how much solvent
(turps) you're using to control the thickness of the paint.
Some pigments will dry more slowly than others (like cad yellow) and others
will dry relatively fast (like umber). Some people like using the earth
tones, I think if you add umber, ochre, etc to a pigment, it will dry
faster. I don't know about that, I never use these earth colors, I don't
see any purpose to using them in painting so I just skip em..
>
> I got a few more masonite questions, would it be better to use an oil base
> primer over tempered masonite or use the acrylic gesso anyhow? Is there other
> steps to take before using oil primer? After? I thought oil primer and acrylic
> gesso were the same with the exception of linseed oil? If I'm right (which I
> doubt) why don't they call it oil gesso?
It would be better to not use masonite at all. It has many bad properties
which make it unsuitable for painting supports. I wouldn't bother with oil
priming, its such a lot of trouble that I'd only bother with it on a nicely
stretched canvas. Even when I had a really nice oil primed canvas, I still
had problems because the solvents in the oils tended to drag up the white
priming color. Hell, I let the thing sit for 2 months after priming before
I used it, it should have been totally dry, but it wasn't..
If you really REALLY have to use Masonite, I'd roughen up one side with
really coarse sandpaper, and sand off all the smooth surface. Give the
surface a real "tooth" and then maybe you have a small chance that the
acrylic gesso might bind permanently. Of course, the masonite will be
stretching and shrinking slightly through humidity and temperature changes
over the years, and it gradually emits gases (outgassing) and its all going
to work to separate your gesso from the board.
> What is masonite made of?
I don't know, but the lumberyard people won't cut it because they're afraid
to breathe toxic sawdust particles from masonite.
----------------
Charles Eicher
cei...@inav.net
----------------
Philip Ayers
cei...@inav.net (Charles Eicher) wrote:
I've addressed this issue in depth about a week or two ago. Masonite IS a
perfectly, actually excellent support for oil painting provided you use
ONLY *untempered* and you prepare the surface properly. Refer to my
earlier post or go to Meyer Handbook. As i've said before I have 30+ yera
old paintings from art school days that look new and they've been treated
poorly. You have to be careful with the size. The bigger you go the more
supports you have to glue to the back and the edges should be protected. I
use them as much as I use Linen and never Plywood anymore unless you are
luck enough to find good quality...no empty spaces(empty knot holes.
behind the first layer of veneer. These gaps aren't obvious but the wood
will split evenually if the gaps are big enough or if the veneer isn't
thick enough! I've also gotten masonite cut down in lumber store but you
really need a table saw or something to make square clean cuts.
: > > I got a few more masonite questions, would it be better to use an
Philip (never Phil) Ayers
http://www.mindspring.com/~p.ayers/
p.a...@mindspring.com.
Larry Seiler
> help oils to dry faster? Which would you recommend of these three? Copal
> medium, Grumbacher painting medium III, or Liquin?
Several professionals explain it like this. Liquin and several other
driers are "progressive" driers.....meaning, they dry in stages which can
yet be after the oil itself has dried, and could lead to cracking problems.
Also some lead to yellowing. I heard definitely stay away from the
Japanese drier. The one that is most recommended is Cobalt Drier. It is
non-progressive.
Larry
Larry Seiler
>
> I'm using liquin but find that it dries TOO quickly!! Can anyone
recommend
> a ready made medium which has a longer drying time.
>
As a landscape plein air painter....I apply about 10 drops to my medium
that attaches to my palette....about 5-6 drops or more (experiment) to my
white paint directly. You have to experiment and adjust to your style of
painting. With Cobalt you have complete control once you find what works.
It dries in about 18-24 hours the way I use it.
Larry
Bob C
>
> If you're careful, you can paint over freshly applied wet paint and
> not drag up any of the undercolor. That's part of the whole "fat over thin"
> thing, you can apply fatter (more media) paint over a relatively thin
The phrase "fat over thin" (I've always heard it as "fat over lean" but
assume this is the same) actually refers to the amount of oil in each
layer of paint and is necessary to prevent the cracking that you so
frequently see in old paintings. I'm not sure if this is what you were
stating, so I just thought I'd clarify it:
oil = fat. The fatter the paint, the more flexible it is. Putting a
layer of less flexible paint over more flexible paint causes that layer
to crack, thus the reason for painting "fat over lean".
If you thin out a paint with oil, it will be fat. If you thin it out
with turpentine (or some turpentine substitute), it will be lean.
Traditional mediums use both, so if you're painting in multiple layers
you would change the ratio of oil to turpentine as you progress.
- Bob C.
Philip Ayers
: > oil = fat. The fatter the paint, the more flexible it is. Putting a
: > layer of less flexible paint over more flexible paint causes that layer
: > to crack, thus the reason for painting "fat over lean".
: >
: > If you thin out a paint with oil, it will be fat. If you thin it out
: > with turpentine (or some turpentine substitute), it will be lean.
: > Traditional mediums use both, so if you're painting in multiple layers
: > you would change the ratio of oil to turpentine as you progress.
: >
: > - Bob C.
Bob
I agree with the above with one exception...You -can- paint layer after
layer with the -same ratio- of oil to pigment. If you go to glazes then it
is probably best to increase the oil some. I've never had a problem and
I've always used this method. If a painting is going to have cracks it
usually happens within a few months to two years. Actually when painting
over another layer of paint time is just as important as the fat over
lean. You should never paint over paint that is completely dry without
removing most of the previous layer. One thing is for sure painting lean
over fat is not recomended especially if the fat layer is completely dry!
A. B. Sieze
>
>In article <716k6f$d2c$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, lanc...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> Can anyone recommend an oil medium, or a "cocktail" of mediums, that would
>> medium, Grumbacher painting medium III, or Liquin?
>
>that everyone needs oil paints to dry quicker?
Most novice painters paint opaquely and thickly so the need
for drying is not as big an issue for them as it is for someone
working in a Maxfield Parrish manner, layers of transparent
glazes. Also, quick drying is a great aide when painting
in plein air. I ALWAYS use a drier when painting in plein air
simply so that I can continue working in the afternoon over
paint that was applied in the morning, as an example.
One of the hardest things for novices to master is a correct
'blend' or 'recipe' for what they hope to achieve with oil
paints. It's why I always recommend that novices begin
by using acrylics which eliminates the need for knowledge
of medium chemistry until the issue of paint handling is
diminished for them. Abby.
Charles Eicher
> Charles Eicher wrote:
> >
> > If you're careful, you can paint over freshly applied wet paint and
> > not drag up any of the undercolor. That's part of the whole "fat over thin"
> > thing, you can apply fatter (more media) paint over a relatively thin
> > paint, it will flow over the paint and not drag it up.
>
> The phrase "fat over thin" (I've always heard it as "fat over lean" but
> assume this is the same) actually refers to the amount of oil in each
> layer of paint and is necessary to prevent the cracking that you so
> frequently see in old paintings. I'm not sure if this is what you were
> stating
Yes, I guess I stated that badly, but you knew what I meant anyway. I
always think of it as "thinned" rather than "lean" because you get thin
layers from dilution with lots of solvent (turps).
> ..so I just thought I'd clarify it:
>
> oil = fat. The fatter the paint, the more flexible it is. Putting a
> layer of less flexible paint over more flexible paint causes that layer
> to crack, thus the reason for painting "fat over lean".
>
> If you thin out a paint with oil, it will be fat. If you thin it out
> with turpentine (or some turpentine substitute), it will be lean.
> Traditional mediums use both, so if you're painting in multiple layers
> you would change the ratio of oil to turpentine as you progress.
Yep, the way I work is I keep two squeeze bottles, one with turps and one
with my medium about as thick as I'd ever want to work with it. I usually
use a medium of 2 parts stand oil, 2 parts regular linseed, 1 part damar
varnish and one part turps. Then I just thin it with extra turps from the
other bottle when I want to work thinner (leaner).
There's a lot of classical techniques all built up for this. I like to
occasionally work from an underpainting of paint thinned radically with
only turps. Then when it dries, work over that, gradually building up to
fatter glazed layers. The only problem I get is keeping control over the
shininess of each layer, with the varying mediums.
brat
ingredients in Grumbacker oil painting medium #l is ? we use it for fast
drying/matte finish...but expensive...might switch to gum turps.
Amanda Rachelle Warren
TheAr...@aol.com- email them. Liquin dries way too fast.
Amanda
"...learn to recognize who and what, in the midst of the inferno, are not
inferno, then make them endure, give them space."
-Italo Calvino, Invisible Cities-
On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Gary Morrow wrote:
> In article <716k6f$d2c$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, lanc...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Can anyone recommend an oil medium, or a "cocktail" of mediums, that would
> > help oils to dry faster? Which would you recommend of these three? Copal
> > medium, Grumbacher painting medium III, or Liquin?
> >
>
> I'm using liquin but find that it dries TOO quickly!! Can anyone recommend
> a ready made medium which has a longer drying time.
>
Ariane
Hi there! I am reading these suggestions with much interest. They are
quite informative. I have a question about alkyd gel. I am composing a
work which I want to execute alla prima and in an impasto manner. I need
it to dry in about a week at the longest. It was suggested to me to use
alkyd gel and to mix it with my paints on the palette on a 1:1 ratio.
Will this serve my purposes? And does anyone consider this gel to be
useful, or should it be avoided like the plague?? Thanx.
A Bientot,
A.
jax...@my-dejanews.com
You should follow the manufacturer's recommendations/instructions
for blending of these 'synthetics' with traditional oil paints.
The new water soluble oils can be blended with the traditional
but in limited quantity. The same applies to the older alkyds.
A.B. Sieze.
br...@wralaw.com
>> It was suggested to me to use
> alkyd gel and to mix it with my paints on the palette on a 1:1 ratio.
> Will this serve my purposes? And does anyone consider this gel to be
> useful, or should it be avoided like the plague?? Thanx.
Each color is a chemical and reacts differently to the oil medium.
The use of alkyd gel will speed the drying of most oil paints. I would
expect this combination to dry in about 48hours, most of my oil paints
dry in less than a week. If your paints take longer to dry than that try
switching from safflower and poppy mixtures, to cold pressed linseed
oil for the oil base in the paints. With impasto expect the outer layer
to dry while the inside stays wet. I have no solid suggestion except to
expect for each color a different drying rate. For example lead white
will dry fast while titanium white will dry slowly, the alkyd might bring
about a more uniform rate but I don't think you will have a final paint
that dries in X amount of time for all thickness and colors.
The Best Medium to speed drying time is patience and using fast
drying lean colors in the underpainting.
>
> A.
>
Ciao!
jax...@my-dejanews.com
br...@wralaw.com wrote:
> In article <Pine.OSF.3.96.981109...@alcor.concordia.ca>,
> Ariane <da_l...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote:
> <snip>
>With impasto expect the outer layer
> to dry while the inside stays wet. I have no solid suggestion except to
> expect for each color a different drying rate.
I perhaps misread the posters question the first time.
If by 'alkyd gel' we are talking about things like
LIQUIN (a W&N product) then it is to be remembered
that LIQUIN is specifically formulated to mix with
oil paints. I have repeatedly suggested to posters
here that the use of COBALT drier is the BEST
alternative if you insist on getting your oil paints
to dry fast. All others are limited in their ability
to hasten the drying process -- at least in my
past experience. Cobalt drier can be added drop by
drop to whatever medium you are using or it can be
added directly to the tube color as squeezed out
on the palette. I have found no noticeable difference
in drying times between different pigments/dyes when
using Cobalt drier. CRACKING of the finished painting
is greatly enhanced by the use of Cobalt Drier and
especially for someone working impasto. It works
best for someone working in glazes. I ONLY use it
for the occasional painting I do en plein air since
it gives me the ability to work on the same painting
all day long. Hope this helps, Abby.