Oil Painting Question
Susan24601
Although I have worked with watercolor and acrylics, I am fairly new to
oil painting. I know to work fat over lean, but can anyone tell me what
sort of proportions this involves? I work with fairly thin glazes and
start thinning with pure artists turpentine, but am not sure how much more
linseed oil to keep adding. What about products such as Liquin? Please
don't tell me to go to the library -- I have many books and magazines on
art & painting, but most just say to work fat over lean; add more linseed
oil toward the end, but not too much, or experiment, etc. How much is too
much? And how will I know whether or not my "experiment" will flake or
slide off the canvas in 10 years? I realize this is not an encyclopedia
or an art school, but could someone with more experience please tell me
how you handle this?
Charles Eicher
In article <19970319220...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
susan...@aol.com (Susan24601) wrote:
> Although I have worked with watercolor and acrylics, I am fairly new to
> oil painting. I know to work fat over lean, but can anyone tell me what
> sort of proportions this involves? I work with fairly thin glazes and
> start thinning with pure artists turpentine, but am not sure how much more
> linseed oil to keep adding.
This is a fairly common question, here's how I work:
Get a small squeeze bottle, fill it with your medium. I use 1 part stand
oil (thickened linseed oil), 1 part linseed oil, 1 part damar varnish, and
2 parts turpentine. You can skip the Damar if you want (some like it, some
don't, I find that it helps 'pull' the paint off the brush onto the
canvas). It will take a couple of days sitting in the bottle to dissolve
all the ingredients properly. Then keep a second squeeze bottle, with pure
turpentine around. Mix the medium with turps, as you need it. Just add more
from the 2nd squeeze bottle, for 'lean'.. I'm sure with experimentation,
you will find proportions that suit your way of working.
What about products such as Liquin?
Liquin sucks. You can't beat the traditional mediums. When I used liquin, I
noticed it had a plasticky, misty look to it when it dried, it looks like
you mixed oil paint with acrylic matte medium (which is not a look that I'd
try to create). Plus, the stuff stinks to high heaven. I generally avoid
the drying mediums like Liquin. You have to learn to make the drying time
work with your painting technique. Some colors dry faster than others; you
have to learn to paint over wet, without raking up the lower layer of
color. Proper control of your medium can help with this, a good medium (as
well as soft brushes with good control) will assist in laying the paint
down without disturbing the underlayers too much.. If you can't deal with
the 'wet on wet', just have several works in progress at once, paint on the
others while one dries.
> ..Please
> don't tell me to go to the library
Well, I'm going to do it anyway. Anyone with sufficient interest in the
techniques of oil painting should check into a book called "The Artists'
Handbook" by Mayer. It has much valuable information. I'm sure I will not
be the only one to suggest reading this book. Its an expensive book, so
check it out at the library.
> -- I have many books and magazines on
> art & painting, but most just say to work fat over lean; add more linseed
> oil toward the end, but not too much, or experiment, etc. How much is too
> much?
Hard to tell, that's more of an issue for the conservators. I'm personally
more concerned with something that works well when MAKING the painting. For
me, the biggest problem I have is in varying the glossyness of the
surface.. when you to too lean, it tends to become matte over the glossier
(fatter) layers. Don't worry about this too much, oil is the easiest medium
to learn, but has more subtleties than any other medium. It will take a
while to get these to all work to your advantage.
> ..And how will I know whether or not my "experiment" will flake or
> slide off the canvas in 10 years?
There's only one surefire way: Look at them 10 years later. Lacking that,
just use the best methods you can.
| Charles Eicher |
| -=- |
| cei...@inav.net |
R/L Davis
Susan24601 wrote:
>
> Although I have worked with watercolor and acrylics, I am fairly new to
> oil painting. I know to work fat over lean, but can anyone tell me what
> sort of proportions this involves? I work with fairly thin glazes and
> start thinning with pure artists turpentine, but am not sure how much more
> don't tell me to go to the library -- I have many books and magazines on
> art & painting, but most just say to work fat over lean; add more linseed
> oil toward the end, but not too much, or experiment, etc. How much is too
> slide off the canvas in 10 years? I realize this is not an encyclopedia
> or an art school, but could someone with more experience please tell me
> how you handle this?
Susan,
First of all you should try not to add ANY extra oil or media to oil colours
unless you have a reason to do so, such as you want to apply a very thin
glaze, in which case the addition of a small amount of media will help. If
you are using anything other than a very good (expensive) grade of colours
there is already more oil in the paint than necessary. Oil paints do not need
any added media to "work". Thinning your paint with turpentine is not the
same as adding more oil. Most techniques of pure oil painting use "washes"
of oil thinned with turpentine in order to quickly block in the forms in the first
layer of paint. If you use too much turp. you run the risk of weakening the
paint film, but that is not really a concern, I don't believe, unless you are
using your paints more like a watercolour, but why would you want to paint
in oils like watercolour? If you want to apply a glaze, a far better effect can
be had by adding only a slight amount of linseed oil (thinned slightly with turp.
if you feel the need) and keeping the body of the paint fairly thick, then
dragging out the colour with a bristle brush, rag, or the fingers; than by adding
lots of turpentine and trying to apply a very thin, liquid paint film.
During the process you want to add as little oil to your paints as possible.
After you have worked up the painting fairly extensively and you are ready
to start another layer, add a very small percentage of oil or media to your
colours in order to keep this second layer of paint slightly fattier than the
previous (a drop or two of oil added to a teaspoon of colour). Keep in mind that
the trick is to keep the amount of oils in the painting to a minimum. The paints
are manufactured with enough (or more than enough) oil to properly bind them.
I believe the instructions say to treat Liquin like part of the "oil" component,
adding Liquin makes a "fattier" paint.
If you keep the amount of oils you add to your paints to a minimum you should be
safe.
Richard
Hill
I have had the same question and have had a hard time finding an
authority on sound technique. With varying results, I've tried ones
suggested either by teachers or friends, usually some version of a mixture
of Damar, linseed oil and turpentine, sometimes adding a drier like cobalt
drier. My mistake early on was to not pay attention to the proportions of
each ingredient, so I was adding turpentine or oil or varnish to the
mixture when it looked low. Before long, I didn't know what I had . This
led to problems like paint being dried out and cracked, paint being too
glossy to paint on top of, or paint films wrinkling up as the layers
underneath dried up.
For awhile I used one that I got from Ralph Mayer's book The Artist's
Handbook, on page 208 in my copy, it goes - 1 part Damar, 1 part stand
oil, and 5 parts turpentine. I left out the Cobalt drier he suggests, I
had heard that was rough on the paint. This worked O.K., but it didn't
give the paint the working quality I wanted. Seemed kind of dry, if that
makes any sense to you. Also, I began having a problem with the paint
flaking off once it had dried. All the paint was new, and the surfaces
were carefully prepared, so I began to suspect it was the medium.
I finally wrote to a bunch of paint manufacturers and conservators with
the question, and even then I didn't get a consensus. The best information
I got was from Robert Gamblin, the manufacturer of Gamblin paint. I think
this guy really knows what he's talking about. Just looking at the
company's color chart is an education. This is what he suggested - 1 part
Damar, 1 part stand oil, 1 part turpentine. I had good luck with it, it
gave the paint enough flow ( depending on how much I use ) and makes a
tough film. This was a couple of years ago, and those paintings are still
in good shape.
I leave out the Damar, though, so mine might be little thicker. I
overpaint a lot, and Damar remains soluble, so if I have a dry layer with
Damar in it, I can't work over it as long. Also, I have read that Damar
contributes to brittleness, which means cracking. Supposedly Damar helps
drying , however. I have read the stand oil is better than plain linseed
oil because it doesn't yellow as much. You should know that I work on a
wooden panel, so cracking might be less of a problem for me.
I don't use any alkyd medium, I like having the paint dry slower than
that. I haven't tried Liquin, but know a lot of people swear by it. I may
sound like a shill for Gamblin, but they make one called Galkyd medium
that I experimented with, and it seemed to work pretty good.
From my reading, it seems like the fewer things you add the safer you
are, assuming the surface is in good shape (a whole other can of worms).
My favorite book on the subject so far is Mark Gottsegen's The Painter's
Handbook, from Watson-Guptill. It's really organized.
I'm glad some one brought it up. Most people take a little mental
vacation when I start talking about this. Fascinating, yet dull.
Bonnie Miller
Hi Susan,
I was wondering if you have the Artist's Hanbook by Ralph Mayer. It is
the one book that you should have above all, since it will answer all of
the questions about art material and technique in a direct, easy to
understand way. When working with oil paints, it's important to know
which pigments dry more slowly than others. Generally the earth tones,
like umber and sienna and the darks dry faster than the lighter pigments,
containing white and cadmium colors. If you paint in the traditional
manner, from dark to light, you paint will automatically dry without any
problems, but if you want some added assurance, I would mix a medium
before starting a painting and store it in a little jar like a baby food
jar. When you paint pour some of that medium in a medium cup with just a
bit of linseed oil. The medium that I mix comes right out of the Mayer
book and I use it for glazing as well as any other technique to thin my
paints. It's the one with turp, damar varnish, cobalt drier, stand oil.
I think its 5 parts turp, l part damar varnish, one part stand oil and l5
drops cobalt drier. The drier help with the the glazing by speeding up
your drying time.
Bonnie
Ben Mandus
Hi, Susan --
Sounds like you're not having a whole lot of fun with this, hon.
Try 'thinking' about it differently, approach it as 'playtime'.
Don't worry about what it'll like like ten years from now (I just
ended up gessoing over old paintings - experiments - and did new
stuff on top of them. They're all sold, now. Nothing is wasted!!
The best chunk of advice I ever got from an artist friend was in
regards to my approach: Don't start on a painting with the plan
of producing a masterpiece, go at it as though you plan to throw
it away afterwards. It's amazing how much this will relax you
mentally, and yes, this always works for me, especially when I'm
working on a commercial piece with a deadline.
Now, as for keeping your colors thin, have you tried just using
extra pressure on the brushes? Sometimes using less opaque
pigment can do the trick, too. Too much use of thinning agents
can actually cause stuff to start sliding down the canvas or
board. Oils are so forgiving - if you don't like what you've
just put on the canvas, just wipe it off, take a break and come
back to it later. And good ol' rock'n'roll is great for the
brush rhythm!
The best thing to do is experiment, PLAY with it. That's the
only way you'll really learn the nature of your pigments, surfaces,
thinners, varnishes, brushes, et cetera. In time it will become
second nature.
Try doing a painting without any thinners whatsoever, using only
brush pressure to control the thickness/thinness of your colors,
to give you a better feel of how much thinning you really want.
Get yourself a good selection of bristle brushes for this, if you
don't have them already.
And remember, PLAY!
Have fun,
Cheryl Mandus
Will Call
In article <ceicher-ya0230800...@news.inav.net>, cei...@inav.net says...
>Liquin sucks. You can't beat the traditional mediums.
I would like to step in here and mention that I find the
drying mediums invaluable when working plein air. I
often use both Cobalt drier and Liquin in these instances.
I have found that working with oils outdoors, I can
rework passages later in the day that would not have
been possible to rework any other way -- without having
to go home, let dry and return another day. I don't
recommend this for someone who is worried about the
archivalness of their work, as the more drier you use
usually the more compromised the finished work will
be, especially if you are working heavily (impasto).
But it works well for me since I work mostly in a glazing
method. I use these as "field sketches" which I may or
may not replicate in the studio and may or may not
work on further later. W. C.
PS My workaday medium is equal parts turp, standoil
or plain linseed oil (depending on my need), and damar
varnish. I keep a second palette cup filled with plain
turp or mineral spirits. I buy damar crystals from Utrecht
by the pound and melt them in pure turpentine contained
in the toe of an old cut off nylon hose.
Will Call
In article <19970319220...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, susan...@aol.com says...
>Please
>don't tell me to go to the library -- I have many books and magazines on
>art & painting, but most just say to work fat over lean; add more linseed
>oil toward the end, but not too much, or experiment, etc.
I've related this story before here, but it's worth repeating -- I think.
When I was doing my undergraduate work at the University, they
had certain studios that were for the exclusive use of the advanced
(seniors) painting classes. When I finally attained that status, I
was working alongside a fellow student day after day, watching
her struggle the entire semester trying to work with those large tubes
of student-grade oil paints, trying to do detailed work with small
brushes and using NO MEDIUM whatever -- just squeezing paint
from the tube and using it unmodified. She was in her final semester
of art school by the way. Finally one day I could
contain myself no longer, and asked her why she didn't try using
a medium ( I had been working with mediums alongside her during
all that time ). Her reply to me was: "What's a medium?"
I hesitate to fault the teaching methods at one of the USA's major
universities, not knowing any more than I do about the personality
of the student who was about to receive her BFA degree. But from
my own experiences, the teachers were woefully negligent in
teaching the basics when it came to working
with painting and drawing materials. When it
was printmaking or one of the other art forms that required care
in the use of the university's equipment, the students were given
a much better foundation in the basics. W. C.
Stanley Beck
Susan24601 wrote:
>
> ...I know to work fat over lean, but can anyone tell me what
> sort of proportions this involves? I work with fairly thin glazes and
> start thinning with pure artists turpentine, but am not sure how much more
>
> Susan...@aol.com
I might as well jump in, too. It has always been my feeling that paint right
out of the tube is the optimum mixture of pigment and oil. I thin it a little
for any underpainting/toning (for somewhat of a wash) with turp. I add as
just as much medium/turp as nessary to make it brushable, and maybe a little
more medium in the final coats (the key is to ad medium, not turp to the
final layers).
I try to keep my meduim mixture simple (like me). I don't like to have to try
to remember complicated mixtures when I'm in the middle of a painting.
It is hard to convey exact formulations, because, in addition to all else,
artists have preferences. With a little time, you will find mixtures that you
like. Unfortunatly, experimentation is part of life.
--
Stanley Beck
Online Gallery --> http://members.aol.com/sbeckart/index.htm
Info --> mailto:sbec...@aol.com, mailto:sbec...@earthlink.net
Stanley Beck
Charles Eicher wrote:
> ...
>
> What about products such as Liquin?
>
> noticed it had a plasticky, misty look to it when it dried, it looks like
> you mixed oil paint with acrylic matte medium (which is not a look that I'd
>
> | Charles Eicher |
My first experience with liquin was just about my last. I used too much --
almost straight out of the bottle. To my dismay, when I tried to do a little
glazing over the painting, the glaze beaded up -- like water on wax paper.
I think it stinks in more ways than one, but then, everyone has his
preferences.
Hill
In article <5grnvs$jbo$4...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, don't...@email.com (Will
Call) wrote:
>
> I hesitate to fault the teaching methods at one of the USA's major
> universities, not knowing any more than I do about the personality
> of the student who was about to receive her BFA degree. But from
> my own experiences, the teachers were woefully negligent in
> teaching the basics when it came to working
> with painting and drawing materials. When it
> was printmaking or one of the other art forms that required care
> in the use of the university's equipment, the students were given
> a much better foundation in the basics. W. C.
That sounds familiar to me. I never heard about this stuff until other
students told me and I started asking teachers about it. Not surprising,
considering some teachers in the field don't even provide their students a
syllabus, if only to explain simple things like attendance policies. There
are a lot of people who would argue that no one should get involved in
these kind of technical issues, ever, that technical knowledge gets in the
way and might prevent experimentation. You get the feeling that some of
these teachers are still arguing with someone who taught them how to
handle materials. My question is, how does more knowledge hinder thinking?
I attended a SECCAC conference (I think it's SECCAC, I might have added
too many C's) a few years ago where the Mark Gottsegen, author of The
Painter's Handbook, was shouted down and treated disrespectfully when
answering a question directed to him. The person who shouted him down was
on the panel, a professor from some other SE or Mid Atlantic university.
Gottsegen's book is one of the best I have ever come across. Here's a
person who really belongs in an academic setting (and I don't mean like
the French Academy) being yelled at by some half-a-hippie.
I have to agree with what the lithographer Barbara Tisserat has written
about teaching lithography in the catalog for a VCU exhibit of her
student's work, (and I'm leaving a lot out) "...technical competence is
liberating...". You won't hear it said that simply by many in painting,
even at the same school.
Nita Leland
You wrote: "...technical competence is liberating...".
In other words: Knowledge is freedom, in any field. In art, when you don't
have to stop to solve the same problems over and over (reinventing the
wheel, so to speak) you're free to be much more creative.
--
Nita Leland
nle...@erinet.com
Bonnie Miller
Stanley,
I don't like liquin myself and prefer mixing my own however, many artists
use liquin sucessfully and I think the key in for using liquin with best
results is using it from the start of your painting to the end. My first
introduction to liquin was in the middle of a piece that was already
overworked and the glazes I was applying were not adhering. My teacher
suggested I try liquin and when I did the color beaded up as you said. I
think at that point in my painting anything would have beaded up. But,
what I learned from this painting was that we must be consistent
throughout the painting with our medium.
My point is that every medium has a different quality to the finish and
one must try it to see if that's what he's seeking. If used properly, I
don't think that liquin shouldn't bead up. Finally, like you I don't
care for the finished effect of liquin and much rather prefer traditional
mediums but other artists swear by it.
Bonnie
Dan Odom
Bonnie Miller wrote:
>
> Stanley,
> I don't like liquin myself and prefer mixing my own however, many artists
> use liquin sucessfully and I think the key in for using liquin with best
> results is using it from the start of your painting to the end. My first
> introduction to liquin was in the middle of a piece that was already
> overworked and the glazes I was applying were not adhering. My teacher
> suggested I try liquin and when I did the color beaded up as you said.
Liquin is a very poor medium, but don't exclude alkyds in general. I
have had much success mixing a pure alkyd resin with mineral spirit and
cobalt drier and using it as a medium. Liquin, I suspect, is the
run-off from industrial paint factories, not a medium formulated
specifically for artists. It is as different from OTHER alkyd media as
DeKoonig's paintings are from Mondriaan's.
--
Daniel Odom
System administrator (sometimes) and web guy (the rest of the time)
dan...@thelonious.spidome.net
http://www.spidome.net/daniel/
finger me for a PGP key
Nita Leland
You wrote: It has always been my feeling that paint right
little
> for any underpainting/toning (for somewhat of a wash) with turp. I add as
> just as much medium/turp as nessary to make it brushable, and maybe a
little
> more medium in the final coats (the key is to ad medium, not turp to the
> final layers).
I'm not an oil painter, but I'd like to pass on a method used by several
artists in the Artist's Forum at Compuserve. They flow a thin layer of
liquin on the support and paint into it wet-into-wet with undiluted oil
paints. They say the paint moves beautifully on this surface. Except for
creating washes for underpainting/toning, they don't seem to use turpentine
or mineral spirits except for cleaning brushes.
--
Nita Leland
nle...@erinet.com
Stanley Beck
Nita Leland wrote:
> ...
> I'm not an oil painter, but I'd like to pass on a method used by several
> artists in the Artist's Forum at Compuserve. They flow a thin layer of
> liquin on the support and paint into it wet-into-wet with undiluted oil
> paints. They say the paint moves beautifully on this surface. Except for
> creating washes for underpainting/toning, they don't seem to use
> turpentine or mineral spirits except for cleaning brushes.
> --
> Nita Leland
> nle...@erinet.com
Yes, there are many interesting techniques -- I'd like to try them all at
some point. The bottom line is that only through experimentation can one
determine if it suits his personalty, style, temperment, objectives, etc.
For someone relatively new to painting, I always recommend staying with the
simple, basic formulas (uncomplicated) at first. After some experience
with the advantages and shortcommings of these, it may be time to try new
approaches.
Elliot Iver
Susan24601 wrote:
>
> Although I have worked with watercolor and acrylics, I am fairly new to
> sort of proportions this involves? I work with fairly thin glazes and
> start thinning with pure artists turpentine, but am not sure how much more
> linseed oil to keep adding.
There are a few Angels that look over a painter, so you should be
sure
to use them. One of them makes sure that if you take up an average
amount
of paint on the tip of your brush and dip it into the medium, the
amount that
covers said tip is enough. In fact you could probably divide the room
between
'dippers' and 'mixers' . Both are fine, but personally I like dipping
better,
as I tend to over-mix otherwise.
Also, if you are glazing ( and there is far too much talk about
glazing ) , you
really should not use any turpentine at all.
EI
Stanley Beck
Elliot Iver wrote:
> ...
> Also, if you are glazing ( and there is far too much talk about
>
> EI
Just curious, but why do you say that?
Regards,
Elliot Iver
Stanley Beck wrote:
>
> Elliot Iver wrote:
> > ...
> > Also, if you are glazing ( and there is far too much talk about
> > glazing ) , you...
> >
> > EI
>
> Just curious, but why do you say that?
Well, the reason why I say that is because in many art classes I've
been
in, or as a professor of mine has commented, that inevitably people
always want
to know about glazing as if that were some magic technique which will
solve all technical problems. In actuality, it is the last and least
essential part
of a painting. I'm not blaming anybody, considering we are at an
absolute
nadir as far as artistic technical knowledge is concerned....
However, upon spending much time thinking about it, I've decided that
what most people
are really asking ( and which is never taught, although you can bet
the masters of the past
were well aware of) is for information reguarding the Law of
Complexion, the ancillary
to the Law of Complementarity. Being aware of color in complexion,
glazing becomes
a subset and not a seperate issue, if you know what I mean.
EI
CARRIE ASSALONE
MY ART PROFESSOR TAUGHT ME THAT WHEN USING LINSEED OIL YOU WANT TO USE
2/3RDS OF IT IN A BOTTLE WITH 1/3 TURPINTINE. I USE LI=1BQUIN MOSTLY TO
THIN THE OIL PAINTS B/C IT'S EASIER FOR ME TO REMEMBER THAT RATHER THAN
MIXING THINGS TOGETHER AND HOW MUCH OF IT. LIQUIN ALSO ALLOWS THE OIL
PAINTS TO DRY AT A QUICKER PACE THAN NORMAL.
CARRIE
Will Call
In article <5hl7m2$j8a$1...@nnrp-101.bryant.webtv.net>, CL...@webtv.net says...
WELL CARRIE, WHY DON'T YOU MAKE IT EASY ON YOURSELF AND USE
HALF AND HALF, THAT WAY YOU WON'T HAVE TO REMEMBER WHICH
IS THE 2/3 AND WHICH IS THE 1/3 AND YOU'LL FIND YOUR ART PROFESSOR
WON'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE AS LONG AS YOU DON'T DO THE MIXING
RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM. DOES YOU ART PROFESSOR APPROVE OF YOU
USING STRAIGHT LIQUIN WITH YOUR OIL PAINTS? W.C.
Tim Long
Try using a few drops of oil to start with, then use more on subsequent
layers. You are using too moch oil if the paint runs off the vertical
canvas - the paint should always remain fairly stiff. Different pigments
make different types of paint - some is more saturated and will require
more oil. You can judge this by thinning a test with oil and turps to
see how much it disperses.
Paint is made in different grades. Use artist's quality for reds, blues,
violets, yellows and some greens but cheaper paont for earth colours.
Liquin will speed drying in small quantities when added to paint mixed
with oil and turps. If you use a lot of it the paint will appear
rubbery.
For glazes experiment with copal or other resinous mediums.
Check out my site at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~tim.longSusan24601 wrote:
>
> Although I have worked with watercolor and acrylics, I am fairly new to
> oil painting. I know to work fat over lean, but can anyone tell me what
> sort of proportions this involves? I work with fairly thin glazes and
> start thinning with pure artists turpentine, but am not sure how much more
> linseed oil to keep adding. What about products such as Liquin? Please
> don't tell me to go to the library -- I have many books and magazines on
> art & painting, but most just say to work fat over lean; add more linseed
> oil toward the end, but not too much, or experiment, etc. How much is too
> much? And how will I know whether or not my "experiment" will flake or
> slide off the canvas in 10 years? I realize this is not an encyclopedia
> or an art school, but could someone with more experience please tell me
> how you handle this?
>