What's the standard art gallery sales commission?
Tony
I'm dealing with a gallery who's owner claims he has to charge up to 67
percent of the retail price of the art to stay in business.
I think this is unfair.
The artists could also claim they need up to 67 percent of the retail
price of the art to stay in business.
I think the fair, standard, traditional sales commission charged by art
galleries is 50 percent.
The reason for this is that if the price of the art is raised or
lowered, the artist and the gallery benefit or suffer accordingly. There
is always a balance.
If the gallery charges more, then the artists should also charge more.
Otherwise, if the art sells with the gallery taking a 67 percent
commission, the gallery pockets most of the profit. If the art doesn't
sell, it could be because the price was too high because the price was
jacked up by the gallery trying to capture more than its share of the
profit, and both parties suffer.
The gallery claims that the sales commsisions charged by galleries vary.
But from what I've seen over the years, 50 percent seems to be the
standard sales commission charged by about 80 or 90 percent of private
gallieries.
I think the sales commission charged by galleries have been creeping up.
I seem to remember in the '80s there were more galleries charging 40
percent commissions than 50 percent commissions. Am I right about this?
Tony
Bob & Dale Ford
not sign a contract ahead of time and the artist received 10% of the sale
price.
That hurts
Dale
John Mashler
>I seem to remember in the '80s there were more galleries charging 40
>percent commissions than 50 percent commissions. Am I right about this?
>
>Tony
>
Hello Tony
I am not sure where you are in the world, but in the Uk and certainly in the
States, the galleries have to deal with sales tax. In the UK it is seventeen
and a half percent. So if they are charging 50 percent commission they are
actually getting only 32 and a half percent. Then they have to deal with
renting premises; staffing; taxes; administration; publicity and so on. If a
gallery says they have to charge more, and I am familiar with galleries that
charge as much as you say, then it is usually because of high costs involved.
Usually, these galleries are dealing with a high turnover of art - and that is
an indication that it is a good gallery. I would suggest that you up the price
that you want for your work in line with it.
John
Marilyn
> arts84...@aol.comnospam (John Mashler) wrote:
>
> ... in the Uk and certainly in
> > the States, the galleries have to deal with sales tax. In the UK it is
> > seventeen and a half percent. So if they are charging 50 percent
> > commission they are actually getting only 32 and a half percent.
>
> John -
>
> I'm not sure how you're figuring this. Suppose a painting retails for
> $1000, at a 50% commission. At 17-1/2% tax, the collector pays a total of
> $1170.50 for the price including tax. The dealer receives $500, the artist
> gets $500, and the government gets $170.50, right?
>
> --
> Dan
>
> 'The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.' - Blake
> http://www.danfoxart.com
That's how sales tax works here in Canada too.
But there is also GST @ 7%, a service tax.
The service provided by the Gallery is taxable and the Gallery may pass that
on to the artist, taking it out of the commission.
John Mashler
>
>I'm not sure how you're figuring this. Suppose a painting retails for
>$1000, at a 50% commission. At 17-1/2% tax, the collector pays a total of
>$1170.50 for the price including tax. The dealer receives $500, the artist
>gets $500, and the government gets $170.50, right?
Nope. In Britain, the price displayed in galleries and catalogues is the total
price including VAT. Not all galleries have to register for VAT - i think the
lower limit is something like sales of 40,000 per year, but couldn't swear to
it (not being a business person). So when the artist sees her work displayed
for 1,000 pounds in Britain, the dealer gives 17 and a half percent of that
immediately to Messrs Customs and Excise and then gives the artist 50 percent
of what is left. I'll let you do the mathematics on that one.
John
Chris
Though art sales aren't taxed here in NS, I should point out that
governments have come up with some pretty bizarre rules to try and cover
their collective butts. For example here in Canada when the government
changed the tax rules to move from a sales tax regime to something like
the UK's VAT (called GST here), they tried to require retailers to
include the tax in the final on-the-shelf price, so consumers wouldn't
realize just how much they are getting soaked for. The rationale was
that consumers would find this information bothersome to deal with (and
in the case of used cars, knowing the VAT means knowing what the dealer
paid for the car.) On the whole, they were unsuccessful at it (except
for used cars), but they did give it the old bureaucratic try. Maybe
Britain has that sort of regime, and maybe not.
Regards;
Chris
Dan Fox wrote:
>
> arts84...@aol.comnospam (John Mashler) wrote:
>
> ... in the Uk and certainly in
> > the States, the galleries have to deal with sales tax. In the UK it is
> > seventeen and a half percent. So if they are charging 50 percent
> > commission they are actually getting only 32 and a half percent.
>
> John -
>
> I'm not sure how you're figuring this. Suppose a painting retails for
> $1000, at a 50% commission. At 17-1/2% tax, the collector pays a total of
> $1170.50 for the price including tax. The dealer receives $500, the artist
> gets $500, and the government gets $170.50, right?
>
ljrobins
another?) there is also PST (provincial sales tax) which is usually another
3%. This tax is also added at the cash register.
lissa
Dan Fox wrote:
> Chris -
>
> Yeah, you, Marilyn, and John have just given me a quick education on
> sales taxation in other countries. For once I'm glad to be in the US
> (George W. notwithstanding....).
>
> Chris <bro...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > Hi Dan;
> > Though art sales aren't taxed here in NS, I should point out that
> > governments have come up with some pretty bizarre rules to try and cover
> > their collective butts. For example here in Canada when the government
> > changed the tax rules to move from a sales tax regime to something like
> > the UK's VAT (called GST here), they tried to require retailers to
> > include the tax in the final on-the-shelf price, so consumers wouldn't
> > realize just how much they are getting soaked for. The rationale was
> > that consumers would find this information bothersome to deal with (and
> > in the case of used cars, knowing the VAT means knowing what the dealer
> > paid for the car.) On the whole, they were unsuccessful at it (except
> > for used cars), but they did give it the old bureaucratic try. Maybe
> > Britain has that sort of regime, and maybe not.
>
Marilyn
ljrobins wrote:
> Dan, and not only is there GST. In most provinces (except Alberta, and maybe
> another?) there is also PST (provincial sales tax) which is usually another
> 3%. This tax is also added at the cash register.
>
> lissa
>
That sales tax is 7% in BC. One deal I had, the gallery would only charge the
clients sales tax if they paid with credit cards, but she insisted on charging
me GST on my commission. She didn't want me to pass that on to the clients. But
many artists I know have never been charged that GST on the commission.
Marilyn
Jon Passmore
things. Galleries here generally charge around 40% commission, some as high
as 50%, but most are 40%.
Jon
"Marilyn" <mwe...@islandnet.com> wrote in message
news:3AF335A3...@islandnet.com...
mdeli
<bdf...@mb.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Yes you're right. I have never seen more than 50%, but I have seen people
>not sign a contract ahead of time and the artist received 10% of the sale
>price.
>That hurts
>Dale
>
From my book:
Because a large over-population of vain artists flock to galleries
offering to consign paintings at essentially no cost to the gallery,
the art business sometimes amounts to little more than theft. I do not
maintain that all galleries are shady or dishonest, but most artists
have had some bad experiences with galleries at one time or other.
Many artists and are often so happy to have their work accepted that
they fail to get proper receipts. If any works sell, the gallery can
just keep the proceeds of the sale. Artists frequently have to sue
galleries and more than a few gallery owners have been known to vanish
with the proceeds.
Now and again we see newspaper articles about such scandals. I have
known artists who have had no end of troubles leading to lengthy
costly lawsuits against dealers. I have also known of dealers who
spent most of their time avoiding telephone calls from irate artists
and dodging summons servers.
The root of this trouble often lies with the artists because so many
of them prefer to live in a kind of ethereal dreamland and steadfastly
refuse to learn anything about the business aspect of their
profession. Many are ripe to be fleeced by unscrupulous dealers.
...no skill no art
Modern Academic Art is incompetence in search of an idea.
Tired of Modern Art? Check out my web page!
Bob & Dale Ford
creativity, some have business sense but none of us have MBA's (well maybe the
odd one) It would be a waste of time for most of us. If a person's gift is in
painting that's where they should focus their attention. And you know what, I
am looking for a representative right now and it is pain in the ass, who's
going to rip you off, who's good to go, unless you have a crystal ball you
really don't know. You only really learn that lesson by experience and that
generally means getting ripped off once or twice. One of the major well
established galleries, with all the big names, went bankrupt in Toronto (help
me out here Canadians) a year ago or so? One artist claimed he was owed over
100,000. No one saw it coming. No guarantees in this world.
Honestly, I am a producer not a marketer, if I was I would be making a lot
more money :-) And yes maybe some of us live in a bit of a dream land, that
makes up for the fact that some of us have this irrepressible urge to create
art in a time artistic creativity has lost a lot of it's value.
And yes artists are dreamers Mani that is the best thing about being an
artist. The people with their own system of logic, seeing what others do not,
creating and being torn to shreds for it every step of the way. If we weren't
dreamers we all would of quit a long time a go. So is it any wonder that when
a gallery director says "this is great I want to display this for you, my
clients will love this, You are the next big thing. I am going to make you
rich.", we believe them? Doesn't every one want some one in their corner
believing in them. That is human nature, not just artist's nature.
Yes others take advantage of that, but why blame the victim here. That IS what
you are doing. We are not the root of the problem. Human nature and greed is.
Artists get ripped off by galleries yes but if you checked the stats probably
no more than other business people being ripped off by each other. We just
seem to take it more personally because we are emotionally tied to our
product.
Maybe schools should teach artists the business side. But really be honest
most of us would suck at it any way and it still no guarantee against an
unscrupulous dealer. The person who got only 10% had worked for this man for
three years, went to Christmas parties at his house, the whole bit. She
trusted him because she knew him well. How well does any one really know any
one else??????
Dale
Bob & Dale Ford
office and ask about that one.
Dale
Bob & Dale Ford
Dale
Marilyn Welch
> Never heard of paying GST on a commission that's horrid! You should call the GST
> office and ask about that one.
> Dale
The gallery owner called the GST office and that's what they told her.
Marilyn
Bob & Dale Ford
some way around it
Dale
John Mashler
>
>Yeah, you, Marilyn, and John have just given me a quick education on
>sales taxation in other countries. For once I'm glad to be in the US
>(George W. notwithstanding....).
>
If money is your primary motivation in life, then yes, stay in the US.
Personally, I am happy to pay high taxes if it means that I can walk the
streets without being shot at; that if I get run over I won't be left lying in
the street because I don't have adequate health insurance for the paramedics to
pick me up; and that my kids, and their kids too, can be sure of receiving a
decent education whatever their financial position is. Fifty percent of your
country have just voted in one of the most corrupt men in the world. What does
that say? I'll bet you any amount of money that within three years your
taxation system will be the highest in the world. Bush will drag you all into
one of the worst recessions that US has ever experienced. Mark my words :-)
John
Bob & Dale Ford
Maybe it may help some one.
Just an idea but what about some type of watch dog group to help point out the
shady dealers? Maybe on line, or is there one already?
Dale
Dan Fox wrote:
> I have dealt with galleries, and watched other artists deal with them,
> for most of my adult life. Every word of what Mani says in this post
> is true. I'll add some practical guidelines and nasty facts for artists who
> want to get into galleries.
>
> Some 'art marketing' books I've seen provide long lists of requirements
> artists should place on galleries as a condition of representing their
> work. Forget it. Until you have a good enough sales record, the gallery is
> in the driver's seat. You have to take what they offer, or leave it. (And
> your standing with galleries is all about sales, regardless of what anyone
> says.)
>
> Many honest galleries do not offer a written contract. Some do. What you
> *must* have with a gallery, at minimum, is a consignment sheet.
> This must include:
>
> - all work you give to the gallery on consignment: each piece, medium,
> size, and retail price.
>
> - the commission structure.
>
> - the payment schedule (example: 'artist will be paid in full within two
> weeks of a sale').
>
> - the gallery insures work in its care.
>
> This consignment sheet must be signed by both the artist and the gallery
> representative. Many galleries offer a written contract covering these and
> other issues, such as discounts, exclusivity, etc. Read it carefully and
> ask questions. Consult a lawyer if you're not sure.
>
> If a gallery refuses to sign a standard consignment sheet, they are most
> certainly crooked, as it is standard practice. Proceed at your own risk.
>
> The most common sleaze I've seen with galleries is not paying artists after
> the gallery is paid by the collector. The common plea is that the
> gallery has high expenses, etc. Bullshit. That money is yours the minute it
> hits their account - don't accept any excuses.
>
> > Because a large over-population of vain artists flock to galleries
> > offering to consign paintings at essentially no cost to the gallery,
> > the art business sometimes amounts to little more than theft. I do not
> > maintain that all galleries are shady or dishonest, but most artists
> > have had some bad experiences with galleries at one time or other.
> > Many artists and are often so happy to have their work accepted that
> > they fail to get proper receipts. If any works sell, the gallery can
> > just keep the proceeds of the sale. Artists frequently have to sue
> > galleries and more than a few gallery owners have been known to vanish
> > with the proceeds.
> >
> > Now and again we see newspaper articles about such scandals. I have
> > known artists who have had no end of troubles leading to lengthy
> > costly lawsuits against dealers. I have also known of dealers who
> > spent most of their time avoiding telephone calls from irate artists
> > and dodging summons servers.
> >
> > The root of this trouble often lies with the artists because so many
> > of them prefer to live in a kind of ethereal dreamland and steadfastly
> > refuse to learn anything about the business aspect of their
> > profession. Many are ripe to be fleeced by unscrupulous dealers.
> >
> > ...no skill no art
> >
> > Modern Academic Art is incompetence in search of an idea.
> >
> > Tired of Modern Art? Check out my web page!
> >
> > http://www.interlog.com/~hugod/
>
Erik A. Mattila
> John -
>
> I said, *for once* I'm glad to be in the US! Most of us liberals are
> pretty glum about it in general.
Pzzzt..."glum's" the word....
Erik
mdeli
>. Fifty percent of your
>country have just voted in one of the most corrupt men in the world. What does
>that say? I'll bet you any amount of money that within three years your
>taxation system will be the highest in the world. Bush will drag you all into
>one of the worst recessions that US has ever experienced. Mark my words :-)
>John
I think you might be wrong. My guess:
Bush will drag us into wars which will avoid recessions and allow all
the super patriots to come out of their holes and start the biggest
episode of flag waving since the Viet Nam debacle. This will start a
new era of advanced paranoid style hate for a yet unnamed scapegoat
while allowing the military industrial complex to explode its
stockpile of crap and create lots of jobs in order to build a new
stockpile. The jail guard industry will also thrive.
Recession, perhaps for a short while but a good war will keep the flag
wavers minds off of what's happening. The boobeosie is always getting
bigger.
Erik A. Mattila
> John Mashler) wrote:
>
>> . Fifty percent of your
>> country have just voted in one of the most corrupt men in the world. What does
>> that say? I'll bet you any amount of money that within three years your
>> taxation system will be the highest in the world. Bush will drag you all into
>> one of the worst recessions that US has ever experienced. Mark my words :-)
>> John
>
>
> I think you might be wrong. My guess:
>
> Bush will drag us into wars which will avoid recessions and allow all
> the super patriots to come out of their holes and start the biggest
> episode of flag waving since the Viet Nam debacle. This will start a
> new era of advanced paranoid style hate for a yet unnamed scapegoat
> while allowing the military industrial complex to explode its
> stockpile of crap and create lots of jobs in order to build a new
> stockpile. The jail guard industry will also thrive.
>
> Recession, perhaps for a short while but a good war will keep the flag
> wavers minds off of what's happening. The boobeosie is always getting
> bigger.
I think you got it partially right, Mani - but the red flag goes up here
(not +that+ red flag). The US is 'just another customer' today, where
in the 60s and 70s the new capital would have stayed in the US. War
(defense/offense) profits may just as well be reinvested in Sony Mexico
or some emerging computer chip enterprise in Vietnam. You know, here in
California hi tech corps like Sun Microsystems are begging congress for
more green cards to fill their positions - why not just take the work to
India where it can be done at a tenth of the cost.....and so on. In
other words, the people down here are going to take it in the shorts on
this round.
Oh, is this an art group?
Erik
>
> ....no skill no art
John Mashler
>
>Bush will drag us into wars which will avoid recessions and allow all
>the super patriots to come out of their holes and start the biggest
>episode of flag waving since the Viet Nam debacle. This will start a
>new era of advanced paranoid style hate for a yet unnamed scapegoat
>while allowing the military industrial complex to explode its
>stockpile of crap and create lots of jobs in order to build a new
>stockpile. The jail guard industry will also thrive.
>
>Recession, perhaps for a short while but a good war will keep the flag
>wavers minds off of what's happening. The boobeosie is always getting
>bigger.
Funny that - as soon as I posted yesterday i thought that I should have said
war was inevitable under Bush regime. I think the old boy is looking for a
fight - might cheer up the bored, eh? So maybe someone will, in good old
traditional American style, assasinate the idiot. Probably be one of his own
who will do it too :-)))
John
John Mashler
>Oh, is this an art group?
>
>Erik
Not from what I've seen, old boy :-)))) But imagine all the war artists who are
waiting in the wings wetting themselves at the possibilities of war.
John
John Mashler
>And here in Oregon there is NO SALES TAX! 8-) This is the place to sell
>things. Galleries here generally charge around 40% commission, some as high
>as 50%, but most are 40%.
>
>Jon
So are you saying that Oregon has very high art sales? I find that very hard to
believe, but am willing to be proved wrong. Why aren't artists flooding there?
John
Marilyn Welch
It's an art paradise, especially Portland. Portland is one of the best
designed cities in the US. It has a big budget for public art. Artists
do flock there.
How about Yorkshire, are there many galleries in York for example?
Marilyn
John Mashler
>designed cities in the US. It has a big budget for public art. Artists
>do flock there.
>
>How about Yorkshire, are there many galleries in York for example?
>
>Marilyn
Sounds like you could do with a geography lesson. Yorkshire is much bigger
than York. Why do you ask about York?
John
Marilyn Welch
No geography needed. You wrote that you were from [the district] of
Yorkshire and [the city] of York. I suggested that you tell us about the
galleries there. What kind of art work do you do?
Marilyn
John Mashler
>Yorkshire and [the city] of York. I suggested that you tell us about the
>galleries there. What kind of art work do you do?
>
>Marilyn
>
Actually, I told the group I was from Yorkshire- never mentioned where. I told
someone in a private email that I lived in York - just outside, actually. I
teach in North Humberside. If I go to art galleries, I generally go to Leeds
and Liverpool and sometimes Manchester. The Yorkshire sculpture park if a
favourite spot of mine. I also told the group that I used to paint but now do
assemblages. I'm not interested in the commercial world of art anymore - got
worn out as a youngster trying to make it. So I make my art for me and for
anyone around here who wants to look at it.
John
Jiri Borsky
> Some 'art marketing' books I've seen provide long lists of requirements
> artists should place on galleries as a condition of representing their
> work. Forget it. Until you have a good enough sales record, the gallery is
> in the driver's seat. You have to take what they offer, or leave it.
I would confirm this.
(And
> your standing with galleries is all about sales, regardless of what anyone
> says.)
Absolutely correct.
Many people go dewy-eyed and think galleries are first and foremost concerned with the aesthetics.
They are no different from other shops - if they do not make sales, they go under.
If your works sells well, you are in the driving seat, as many galleries will want your stuff. They
will make appointments and drive quite some distances to your studio door to collect it. And a
casually uttered remark how a slow-paying dealers are automatically placed at the back of the queue
or starved of your work completely, will work wonders at speeding the after-sale cheques!
> Many honest galleries do not offer a written contract. Some do. What you
> *must* have with a gallery, at minimum, is a consignment sheet.
> This must include:
>
> - all work you give to the gallery on consignment: each piece, medium,
> size, and retail price.
I now include also a small image of each work. This is to aid my memory more than anything else. Has
been known to impress computer-illiterate dealers. (The pics, not my memory!)
Retail price? I leave this to the dealer.
What I quote is NETT TO ARTIST. This is uniform to all the galleries I sell through. What they put
on (and then take a bit off as a little discount, perhaps) is entirely their thing.
> - the commission structure.
See above.
> - the payment schedule (example: 'artist will be paid in full within two
> weeks of a sale').
>
> - the gallery insures work in its care.
>
> This consignment sheet must be signed by both the artist and the gallery
> representative.
Generally I do this only in the initial period with a new gallery. Later on the delivery sheets are
unsigned. Perhaps we are more trusting here in the UK?
In over 20 years of dealing with galleries I have just one work unaccounted for (presumed lost),
more due to confusion than deliberate attempt to swindle me, I'd like to believe.
In the early 1990s when I started to show in London, I left the pricing entirely to Ogle Fine Art,
who were my main dealers then (now retired). It may seem a brave or foolish move, but they were
honest people, and knowing the market better than I, pitched the prices upwards in a steeper curve
then I would have dared. We both profited that way.
Jiri Borsky
www.borsky.dial.pipex.com/
Xena
John Mashler wrote:
> >
>
> If money is your primary motivation in life, then yes, stay in the US.
> Personally, I am happy to pay high taxes if it means that I can walk the
> streets without being shot at; that if I get run over I won't be left lying in
> the street because I don't have adequate health insurance for the paramedics to
> pick me up; and that my kids, and their kids too, can be sure of receiving a
> decent education whatever their financial position is. Fifty percent of your
> country have just voted in one of the most corrupt men in the world. What does
> that say? I'll bet you any amount of money that within three years your
> taxation system will be the highest in the world. Bush will drag you all into
> one of the worst recessions that US has ever experienced. Mark my words :-)
> John
Hey, 50% did NOT vote him in. The popular vote went to Gore. Then again, yall had
Thatcher - same thing. Besides, in 4 years he will be replaced.
Health care is provided for indigent people here but it is certainly not adaquate.
It's probably on par with your nationalized health care. Additionally, you have to
put up with those "flats" in which there is no heat. Don't you have to sleep with a
warm brick at your feet for heat?
Then again, you have that LIP problem. Your health care system doesn't have
colligen does it? I realized that I am full of shit though when I thought of Mick
Jagger. That dude has enough lips for an entire city. Of course, he had to get his
teeth done in America too. Don't you people there have dental care? Maybe it is all
the tea you drink. I bet you never see a kid with braces on.
Crooked, little brown teeth. No lips. How appealing.
Decent education? Based on what standards? Doubtful.
To make it THERE, one has to come HERE.
I'll bet 90% of the US & Canadian posters don't even know who your prime minister
is. Not that it even matters.
Your extreme patriotism for an old and tired country is amusing.
PS. We don't even have to share bathrooms here. Not even the poorest families.
Another thing, look on the bottle of Pepto Bismol for the proper spelling. You
don't actually manufacture your own goods, do you?
Erik A. Mattila
> I realized that I am full of shit though when I thought of Mick
> Jagger. That dude has enough lips for an entire city.
Why do you think they call it "Liverpool?"
EAM
John Mashler
>had
>Thatcher - same thing. Besides, in 4 years he will be replaced.
Sorry ... more than 50 percent then. I assume that the US democratically
elected their president.
You're right about Thatcher though - which idiots voted a woman in and expected
her to be able to do a man's job?
John
John Mashler
>
>I've had a really terrible day, and you made me laugh out loud. Thanks!
Its always good to be able to laugh at yourself :-))))))
John
Xena
John Mashler wrote:
> >Hey, 50% did NOT vote him in. The popular vote went to Gore. Then again, yall
> >had
> >Thatcher - same thing. Besides, in 4 years he will be replaced.
>
> Sorry ... more than 50 percent then. I assume that the US democratically
> elected their president.
Don't assume, Doughboy. If you don't know the facts keep your lipless mouth closed.
Bush lost the popular vote. Get a book. Study. When you know jack about the US -
then give your opinion.
>
>
> You're right about Thatcher though - which idiots voted a woman in and expected
> her to be able to do a man's job?
> John
You are the scum under a homeless person's toes. Or between the toenail . You are a
sorry bastard/bitch aren't you?
Someday you may even post something about art but I guess you are reading about it
first.
But I'm not finished:
How come in addition to being a nation of incredibly ugly people your comedians are
all transvestites? Seriously. I've never seen British comedians who don't dress in
drag. And you also have the "farting" noises which seem mandatory. Duh. Real funny.
Never progressed beyond grade school mentality.
And there's more:
Our great shame in the US is our treatment of the Native Americans and slavery.
Then again, people are realizing that it is not only ignorant but easy to subjugate
someone of another color. What puzzles me is that YOU BRITS HAVE STARVED, MURDERED
AND STOLEN AND ENTIRE COUNTRY - IRELAND!!!!!!!
Come over here. I've got a nice Saturday Nite special that I'll show you. A little
lesson needs to be learned about one's "place".
(Do you teach in your English history books that the US kicked your ass in all wars
we engaged in together?)
Now that I think of it there is more that is really irritating me:
Yall can't dance worth shit! Doesn't anyone there have rhythm?
I guess it don't matter cuz you are all too damn ugly to get asked to dance and
parading around in your transvestite clothes making your farting sounds and all..
Bye now.
Xena
Dan Fox wrote:
> Xena -
>
> I've had a really terrible day, and you made me laugh out loud. Thanks!
>
> (Don't get me wrong, folks - I'm sure Xena could assemble just as funny a
> diatribe for the US - or Canada. Maybe not Tierra del Fuego.)
>
>
> http://www.danfoxart.com
Sorry you had a terrible day Dan. But you are wrong. I wouldn't say anything
about canada or the US (oops, excepting the last post about US slavery and
Native American injustices, theft and murder - which Canada did with Native
Americans too)
But I can honestly say that when I talk about the English I'm not
stereotyping.
Tell me they have lips? Rhythm? Humor? Talent?
See?
Simon Gurr
09/05/2001 2:04 PM:
> But I can honestly say that when I talk about the English I'm not
> stereotyping.
> Tell me they have lips? Rhythm? Humor? Talent?
Enough humour to enjoy your posts, Xena. Where did the lips thing come
from???
SiG
--
http://www.givewater.org 2 million clicks = Ł150,000 for WaterAid
http://www.simongurr.com Comics Illustration Web Animation
Xena
Simon Gurr wrote:
> in article 3AF9407B...@never.com, Xena at nom...@never.com wrote on
> 09/05/2001 2:04 PM:
>
> > But I can honestly say that when I talk about the English I'm not
> > stereotyping.
> > Tell me they have lips? Rhythm? Humor? Talent?
>
> Enough humour to enjoy your posts, Xena. Where did the lips thing come
> from???
>
> SiG
> --
> http://www.givewater.org 2 million clicks = £150,000 for WaterAid
> http://www.simongurr.com Comics Illustration Web Animation
No offense, but you probably talk about the US too. Don't you say things
about our guns and so on? Well, I'm honestly just repeating things that we
say over here about the Brits. Thats all. But, don't take it personally. We
have an extremely large Irish population here that has a very long memory.
Plus we do see some things from there on our tvs. People here are kind of
intimidated by the French though (except for the fact that they don't bathe
often and haven't heard of ANTIPERSPIRANT!) And everyone thinks if someone is
Italian they are in the Mafia which isn't fair at all since I personally know
of 3 who are NOT! Russian women never shave their legs (gawd, don't even want
to THINK about their armpits!)
But all North Americans (including Canada, US & Mexico) have pretty lips and
are great dancers :-D
Simon Gurr
09/05/2001 2:28 PM:
> No offense, but you probably talk about the US too. Don't you say things about
> our guns and so on?
Are you in the US? I know private gun-ownership is legal in the US, but it's
not for me to comment publicly on the rights or wrongs of that.
> Well, I'm honestly just repeating things that we say over here about the
Brits. Thats all. But, don't take it personally.
No offense taken! My British friends living in your country would be amused.
I think I've figured out the thin lips reference. Is it anything to do with
Anne Robinson on The Weakest Link?
> We have an extremely large Irish population here that has a very long memory.
So long as you realise that Anglo-Irish relations aren't as bad as they used
to be. For years now British and Irish governments have been working
together to solve their problems and, on a personal level, I'm English and
have had Irish friends for as long as I can remember. Irish culture, or at
least a watered-down version of its pubs and music, is more popular than
ever here.
cheers,
Marilyn Welch
Zena,
Speaking for Canada, (imagine speaking for a whole country?)
some of us know the name of Tony Blair. We even let Prince
Charles visit the country recently but only after he washed
his shoes.
We were mean to our Native peoples but not so much with guns
we did it with bureaucracy.
If you ever decide to do a farce against us, some Canadians will
probably post apologies for upsetting you.
Jon Stewart (US Comedian) said he was here for a visit and he
figured he could take over the country in about a week.
What kind of art do you do? It must be outrageous.
Marilyn
Dan Brusca
and
> are great dancers :-D
What good is it being great dancers when your music is shit? ; )
Xena
Marilyn Welch wrote:
>
> Jon Stewart (US Comedian) said he was here for a visit and he
> figured he could take over the country in about a week.
>
> What kind of art do you do? It must be outrageous.
>
> Marilyn
Assemblage, just like Johnny/Allison
We had a great tv show, something "Nation" with Roger Moore (???)
Erik would probably know the title. Anyway, I guess one segment was addressing the
illegal immigration across US borders as racist. First they showed a checkpoint on
the Mexican side with guns, barbed-wire, showing identification, etc. THEN, they
showed the US/Canadian border check in which people just drove through. They were
told "Have a nice day" and people from the show asked "Don't you want to see our
ID?" and were told "What for?". So they carried it even further and had someone
dress up in a Moose-suit, complete with moose head and antlers driving the vehicle
and the moose asks "Don't you want to see MY ID?" and the border patrol (Canadian)
just laughed and waved the moose driving the car on. PML! I think your border
security is lax to say the least but the reason you are safe from a US invasion is:
#1. No draft to avoid now and #2 The stores in Canada aren't open all night ;-)
I also do performance art. I am currently working on my nude warrior princess
series.
zoo
Marilyn wrote:
>We were mean to our Native peoples but not so much with guns
>we did it with bureaucracy.
I must add (just to mention a few):
also with germ warfare (small pox), dam building (as in James Bay), oil
drilling (as in Lubicon Lake, Alberta), and - not to forget - "assimilation"
(as in residential schools)!
Louise
in Winnipeg
Marilyn
> Marilyn Welch wrote:
>
> >
> > Jon Stewart (US Comedian) said he was here for a visit and he
> > figured he could take over the country in about a week.
> >
> > What kind of art do you do? It must be outrageous.
> >
> > Marilyn
>
> Assemblage, just like Johnny/Allison
You mean Johnison the Mashler?
>
> We had a great tv show, something "Nation" with Roger Moore (???)
I know the show. Guess what, we have tv here. Well some of us still have those
antennae, and the transmission is a little snowy. But then it matches the snow we have
12 months of the year. WE love Michael Moore (?), he must be part Canadian. Didn't he
make the movie "Looking for Roger" also,
"Canadian Bacon?" You can catch Michael sometimes on the tv show "Politically
Incorrect."
By the way, you would make a great guest on that show, haha.
> So they carried it even further and had someone
> dress up in a Moose-suit, complete with moose head and antlers driving the vehicle
> and the moose asks "Don't you want to see MY ID?" and the border patrol (Canadian)
> just laughed and waved the moose driving the car on. PML! I think your border
> security is lax to say the least but the reason you are safe from a US invasion is:
> #1. No draft to avoid now and #2 The stores in Canada aren't open all night ;-)
What's wrong with people in moose suits?
We have strict gun control. We've stopped innocent looking middle-aged couples in RV's
who were packing firearms. Hunters are okay, we have too many wild animals anyway,
eating up all the land that should be used for cattle & cows.
WE ARE NOT SAFE. First of all our dollar is worth about 60 cents US and in free fall.
Our 7-ll's, Robin's Doughnuts and other places are open all night.
AND we have fresh, flowing, water from glaciers and mountain streams.
> I also do performance art. I am currently working on my nude warrior princess
> series.
But wearing your steel helmet with the Viking horns? otherwise how would anyone know
you were a warrior?
over to you,
Marilyn
ps You really know 3 Italians who are NOT in the Mafia?
John Mashler
lissa, my little sweeetheart - we have something in common! But you will have
to be more specific with Marilyn - I'm still laughing at her 2d or 3d question
..... maybe she never heard of collage :-))))))
Your performance here has been delightful, dearie. thanks for the laughs!
John
John Mashler
>You mean Johnison the Mashler?
I knew Marilyn loved me :-))))))))
John
Billie Yuss
>#1. No draft to avoid now and #2 The stores in Canada aren't open all night
I would rate as #1, Ten ounce drinks instead of the
12 oz. sold in the USA. But then I remember that
the alcohol content is much higher... <g>
ljrobins
> Lissa Robinson, also know as Xena wrote:
Now THAT is funny John/Ali. But since I love Xena's words sooooo much I really
don't mind the confusion.
lissa
Xena
Dan Fox wrote:
> Xena <nom...@never.com> wrote:
>
> > I also do performance art. I am currently working on my nude warrior
> > princess series.
>
> This is MUCH better than mdeli. Can we see pix?
>
> --
> Dan
>
> 'The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.' - Blake
> http://www.danfoxart.com
I'm working on it. I've decided to swing from a rope reciting words from
the Iliad (various female characters) while being fanned by 10 Eunuchs.
I'm having a hard time finding the Eunuchs though.
So being a busy floozy this is my last post (barring one more which may
erupt)
What Brit replied to my post saying the US has no good music? Excuse me???
This has kept me up all night when I should be finding some Eunuchs.
What kind of music? Blues? Rap? Rock? Hip hop? Jazz? Country? Ethnic music
such as Celtic? Polka? Salsa?
Are you OUT OF YOUR MIND? Do you think people go to England to hear some
awesome BLUES? Do you even HAVE Jazz???
"Riverdance" impressed the heck out of me. Those Irish can dance!
But the reason it compelled me to write again is that YOUR BRITISH "BECK"
came over here to the US and was arrested for MASTURBATING IN A PUBLIC
RESTROOM! And Hugh Grant picks up a hooker and gets arrested. No, if
someone wants to barter for sex, who cares, but Mr. Grant is compelled not
to pay a couple of dollars for a motel or hotel room but wants his
services out in public in his car, a convertible!
Geez, don't you people have control? I mean our own Pee-Wee Herman was
arrested for public masturbation but look at the poor guy, no one was even
surprised. You kind of expect him to do something like that.
I can't believe your celebrities are so uncouth. I know when I'm in a
foreign country I'm on my Best Behavior.
So quit masturbating or buying sex in public here is all I have to say.
YUCK! I don't think I'd sit on a toilet after an Englishman used it. I
mean, come on - do you visit someone's house here and poop on their living
room carpet?
Get some manners!
PS. And THANKS A LOT FOR KILLING our beloved Jimmi Hendrix with your foul
version of Heroin! (You think we forget?)
Marilyn Welch
On 10 May 2001, John Mashler wrote:
> >
> lissa, my little sweeetheart - we have something in common! But you will have
> to be more specific with Marilyn - I'm still laughing at her 2d or 3d question
> ..... maybe she never heard of collage :-))))))
>
> Your performance here has been delightful, dearie. thanks for the laughs!
> John
>
>
There's assemblage sculpture.
Guess you never heard of it over there
pouring-paint-lipless-in-London.
Billie Yuss
>What's an ounce? is it more than a ml? <g>
It's that preventive thingy that's worth
more than the cure by the pound of.
Doesn't look as if the USA will ever
adopt the metric system - at least not
in my lifetime. Of course we are "bi" in
most instances.
Tony
Speaking of 50%, that reminds me: Has anyone heard of a gallery charging 67% sales
commission?
I'm the artist who started this discussion.
I don't know what to do about that issue because the gallery is willing to display my
paintings and it's hard to get accepted into similar, tony galleries.
Tony
John Mashler
>Guess you never heard of it over there
>pouring-paint-lipless-in-London.
>
>
All of assemblage is basically "sculpture". There is no such things as 2D
assemblage.
And I am in Yorkshire - I guess it his hard for you lot over there to get a
grip on there being more places to Britain than London!
John
ljrobins
> >There's assemblage sculpture.
> >Guess you never heard of it over there
> >pouring-paint-lipless-in-London.
> >
> >
>
> All of assemblage is basically "sculpture". There is no such things as 2D
> assemblage.
Actually, the definition of assemblage is:
n. bringing or coming together; concourse of persons; collection of things;
fitting together, object made of pieces fitted together.
There is nothing in the definition that says it has to be a sculpture,
although yes, that is the general rule of thumb.
lissa
Bob & Dale Ford
Dale
Tony
> Do you have to pay for the framing too?
> Dale
Yes. And handle the framing.
ljrobins
Tony wrote:
> Bob & Dale Ford wrote:
>
> > Do you have to pay for the framing too?
> > Dale
>
> Yes. And handle the framing.
Tony, just make sure you add the cost of the framing to the retail price the gallery sets
and DON'T let them take any commission on that portion of the price.
Bob & Dale Ford
If you go with them I hope they get one hell of a big price for you. To me it doesn't sound
fair, but life isn't fair is it.
Dale
Tony
> Tony wrote:
>
> > Bob & Dale Ford wrote:
> >
> > > Do you have to pay for the framing too?
> > > Dale
> >
> > Yes. And handle the framing.
>
> Tony, just make sure you add the cost of the framing to the retail price the gallery sets
> and DON'T let them take any commission on that portion of the price.
How do I do that?
The gallery's approach is to say to the artist, "How much do you want for this painting?" Then
they display the painting, get a feel for its popularity by gauging customers' reactions, and
setting the price accordingly by making the commission 50 percent, 67 percent, or something in
between.
Tony
ljrobins
> ljrobins wrote:
>
> > Tony wrote:
> >
> > > Bob & Dale Ford wrote:
> > >
> > > > Do you have to pay for the framing too?
> > > > Dale
> > >
> > > Yes. And handle the framing.
> >
> > Tony, just make sure you add the cost of the framing to the retail price the gallery sets
> > and DON'T let them take any commission on that portion of the price.
>
> How do I do that?
>
> The gallery's approach is to say to the artist, "How much do you want for this painting?"
Tell them what you want for the painting itself (unframed). And then allow them to take the
commission off that portion. Then add the framing cost on top of that retail price and tell them
they are not privy to this amount as you need to recover the full price of what the framing cost
you.
They can set the price of the piece unframed and then tell the interested clientele it will be
extra for the framing.
I repeat DO NOT let them take 50% of the framing amount. You deserve to recover the full cost of
what the framing cost you. And if they cannot, as dealers (or rather, business people) respect
this arrangement then do not let them carry your work. This is just my opinion, of course, but I
did work as a gallery assistant for 2 years at a mid to high end contemporary art gallery
(commercial) and this was/is generally the standard practice held by all the respectable
commercial galleries in my city. It is okay for a dealer to make money but it is not okay for
them to take advantage of an emerging artist.
It is not in your best interest to find yourself in an arrangement where the dealer does not
respect your business costs (the framing is done to please the client and make the art object
more valuable or sellable). You deserve to recover these external costs (framing) rather than
absorb them in the name of your art. They may attempt to take advantage of your desire (the
desire of all artists!) to get your work in a publicly visible, commercial setting.
lissa (who obviously feels strongly about this!)
Tony
Thanks, LIssa. I'll try that approach.
Tony
Marilyn
I never thought to separate the framing cost so I would not be paying commission on my own expenses.
And in the case of the artist doing her own framing, she would still deduct framing labour and
materials.
There can arise a problem, when the client says they want the work unframed after it is already
framed (some people don't like wood.) . I just said no and they took it anyway.
Marilyn
Tony
> Thanks Lissa,
>
> I never thought to separate the framing cost so I would not be paying commission on my own expenses.
> And in the case of the artist doing her own framing, she would still deduct framing labour and
> materials.
>
> There can arise a problem, when the client says they want the work unframed after it is already
> framed (some people don't like wood.) . I just said no and they took it anyway.
>
> Marilyn
>
> ljrobins wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Tell them what you want for the painting itself (unframed). And then allow them to take the
> > commission off that portion. Then add the framing cost on top of that retail price and tell them
> > they are not privy to this amount as you need to recover the full price of what the framing cost
> > you.
> >
> > They can set the price of the piece unframed and then tell the interested clientele it will be
> > extra for the framing.
> >
> > I repeat DO NOT let them take 50% of the framing amount. You deserve to recover the full cost of
> > what the framing cost you. And if they cannot, as dealers (or rather, business people) respect
> > this arrangement then do not let them carry your work. This is just my opinion, of course, but I
> > did work as a gallery assistant for 2 years at a mid to high end contemporary art gallery
> > (commercial) and this was/is generally the standard practice held by all the respectable
> > commercial galleries in my city. It is okay for a dealer to make money but it is not okay for
> > them to take advantage of an emerging artist.
This is not just a matter for emerging artists. Sometimes they try to take advantage of established
artists, too.
Sometimes the reason is that they are emerging galleries.
ljrobins
> It is okay for a dealer to make money but it is not okay for
> > > them to take advantage of an emerging artist.
>
> This is not just a matter for emerging artists. Sometimes they try to take advantage of established
> artists, too.
True, but highly unlikely. Established artists have a visible professional reputation within the art
world and usually know their way around the block. They definitely have more leverage for negotiation,
and peers who are already carried by galleries and can offer advice.
> Sometimes the reason is that they are emerging galleries.
This, in my opinion, is no reason for any gallery to take advantage of an artist.
lissa
RBrac53660
>not for me to comment publicly on the rights or wrongs of that.
I'm in the US and in Texas where it is easy to get a permit to carry conceled
weapons. Ohh and we just had kid kill himself in his high school the other
day. He had a crush on a girl.
Marilyn Welch
The NRA will continue to state that there is no correlation between
availability of guns and death by gun fire. But they only have to
gather stats from countries like Canada where there is stricter gun
control to see the error of that statement.
Texas? That's where there are 6 guns for every man, woman and child.
We met an artist from Texas and he told us he lived in a rural area
where first thing in the morning he had to get out his gun. First he
had to shoot the crows, and then the snakes.
Sure must be noisy down there.
Marilyn
RBrac53660
When you're born here. in Texas, your issued a pea shooter then on your third
birthday you get a rubber band weapon (gun). By the time your 5 if your
testoterone levels are high enough you get to pick your weapon of choice ;)
The woman first have to learn how to ride side saddle then can get a derringer
with a males permission and pedagogic direction.
>First he
>had to shoot the crows, and then the snakes.
>
Well what else are you gonna eat for breakfast? Canadian Bacon gross. Also
wev'e heard those rumors of the mad pig plague. My third cousin once removed
(Dick Cheney) reads but only the reliable sources of news The National
Enquirer.
Misty Ayed
says...
>When you're born here. in Texas, your issued a pea shooter
I had a switchblade in my diaper when I left
the hospital (in El Paso). By the time I
was teething I was using my Bowie knife for
cleaning my two teeth of beef shreds. By
the time I was two I had my first Roy Rogers
Model BB gun. By three I was given my first
child-sized .22 single shot with which I shot
my first jackalope. Wanna hear more...
Didn't think so. But here are some perty pictures
I'll share, taken on Monday when our group of
plein air painters meets for their weekly session:
http://www.zianet.com/jaxart/photos/photo-1.html
These warn't taken in Texas, but just across the
line in New Mexico (yes, that's in the USA too).
RBrac53660
> Wanna hear more...
>perty
You miss spelled purdy. Maybe its just a West Texas t'ing ;) BTW give Judge
Roy Bean my regards. Looks like you'll had fun in that state that use to be a
part of Texas.
Misty Ayed
says...
>You miss spelled purdy.
Well, I spell well enuff to know mispelled is
not miss spelled.
>BTW give Judge
>Roy Bean my regards.
Geez, a geezer I may be but I'm not
in THAT world - yet. I suspect ole
Bean is breathing fire and brimstone
and spitting out ashes and smoke, and
they're blaming the power plant in Mexico
for polluting the Langtry area now.
Myself, I'm hoping to be sitting astride
Cloud Nine painting aerial views.
RBrac53660
Tony
> Thanks Lissa,
>
> I never thought to separate the framing cost so I would not be paying commission on my own expenses.
> And in the case of the artist doing her own framing, she would still deduct framing labour and
> materials.
So I'm supposed to tell the gallery the price of the painting unframed and then add the cost of framing
AND materials as well (i.e. paint, canvas and mediums)?
So far I think we've only been discussing having the framing expenses to be exempt from the gallery's
commission; not the art materials as well.
If you go that far, you could also claim that things like paint brushes, transportation, studio rental
costs and photographic expenses (as reference material) could be considered expenses that the gallery
commission is not added to.
Tony
ljrobins
Tony wrote:
> Marilyn wrote:
>
> > Thanks Lissa,
> >
> > I never thought to separate the framing cost so I would not be paying commission on my own expenses.
> > And in the case of the artist doing her own framing, she would still deduct framing labour and
> > materials.
>
> So I'm supposed to tell the gallery the price of the painting unframed and then add the cost of framing
> AND materials as well (i.e. paint, canvas and mediums)?
No, I think Marilyn was only referring to the cost of the framing. Her point above was that an artist
should claim the framing separately even if they are doing it themselves rather than hiring it out.
The reason I suggested this is because framing is not necessarily something an artist demands for their
work but is often something a client demands. There is no reason a gallery owner should make money on this
portion of the sale unless they are the ones paying for the framing.
Lissa
Landuyt
I will try to respond in my best English...i'm not used to speak or write
this language...
What i want to say about this subject.
I'm a painter who lives in Belgium. The seven years that i'm a proffesional
( what means, that i can survive only by painting) painter now, the
relationship whit the galleries was very different. In the beginning, the
galleries wanted a big percentage ( depended on what they offered to do for
me...just selling, or more ...)...now, i can set my own terms..simply
becouse i sell out. About the frames...you can set your price so that the
fraiming + their percentage of the fraiming is included...
For me, fraiming a painting is just done for protection of the painting..in
a gallery they have not always the same care for the paintings...and the
client often want another frame...so my frames are always standard frames.
In the beginning i didn't had the money for framing..so i didn't. When the
gallery wanted a frame they just had to buy it....
For everybody...the framing and the percentages will always be
different...depending on the galleries,...and on your selling quota...it is
simply like that.
I learnd one thing along the seven years...my art( i started painting when i
was 12,)...stops at the door of my atelier. The moment it passes that
door...it is for me an instrument to survive...my job. How i can live like
that? Well, the moment one painting leaves my atelier, another white canvas
is waiting to be transformed into something beautiful....art. So, outside my
atelier i run a business...the moment galleries know they are not talking to
an artist..but to a provider of their existing...they listen more
carrefully...that is my experiance whit the galleries.
greetings
Landuyt Peter
"Tony" <to...@design-write.com> schreef in bericht
news:3B2B9335...@design-write.com...
Tony
> I will try to respond in my best English...i'm not used to speak or write
> this language...
>
> What i want to say about this subject.
> I'm a painter who lives in Belgium. The seven years that i'm a proffesional
> ( what means, that i can survive only by painting) painter now, the
> relationship whit the galleries was very different. In the beginning, the
> galleries wanted a big percentage ( depended on what they offered to do for
> me...just selling, or more ...)...now, i can set my own terms..simply
> becouse i sell out.
Thanks, Landuyt (and L.J. Robins for your contribution in the previous letter).
Landyut: What were the percentages that the galleries took when you started,
and what are the percentages that the galleries take now?
I've wondered sometimes about degree to which artists can dictate their own
terms as the artists become successful and their artworks become more valuable
to the galleries in which the artwork is sold.
Tony Wypkema
Tony Max
> What I quote is NETT TO ARTIST. This is uniform to all the galleries I sell through. What they put
> on (and then take a bit off as a little discount, perhaps) is entirely their thing.
If they give a discount to the customer, that's okay, because you still
get the same amount as what's in the agreement.
But if you don't determine the retail price, they may raise the price of
the art, which makes it harder to sell, and if it does sell, they pocket
the profit. And it it doesn't sell, you have to go back to the gallery
to retreive the work, so you gain nothing in that case.
That's why the amount the artist gets should be a percentage (in
wriiting) of the retail price.
And what bugs me, too, is when galleries don't post the retail prices of
the art. This gives them the chance to sell the art for a higher price
than what was agreed on with the artist, and again the gallery pockets
the extra profit, or the artist has to takes the art back and loses.
But what can you do about galleries that don't advertise the prices of
the art with a little sign next to each piece?