Winsor & Newton watercolor RANT
keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com
under the name raw sienna so you can buy it under two different names.
take care: keith
dkra <dk...@mmi.ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:dkra-26120...@user-2ivfij3.dialup.mindspring.com...
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>
> As a late birthday present + Christmas present, I decided to treat myself
> to a 12-pan enameled watercolor box from Winsor & Newton (this is the
> all-metal one with the built-in water bottle, #0190543). It's the size of
> a pack of playing card[1]. The top lid pops off and can be hooked on as a
> rinse basin. The lid folds out as a mixing area.
>
> The box came with the following colors in half pans: Winsor Yellow
> (PY154), Cadmium Yellow (PY35+PO20)[2], Cadmium Red (PR108), Permanent
> Alizarin Crimson (PR N/A[3] +PR206), French Ultramarine (PB29), Cerulean
> Blue (PB35), Winsor Green Yellow Shade (PG36), Yellow Ochre (PY43), Burnt
> Sienna (PR101), Burnt Umber (PBr7+PR101+PY42), Raw Umber (PBr7+PY42)[4],
> and Ivory Black (PBk9).
>
> Of course, the nice thing about such boxes is their modularity; one can
> replace colors. I knew I wanted Viridian (PG18), Winsor Green Blue Shade
> (PG7) and Rose Madder Genuine (NR9) in pan form; I already had them in
> tubes.
>
> So... I bought these pan paints and tested them on a 140-lb. Arches rag
> cold-pressed sheet.
>
> I was amazed at how DULL these pan colors were. However, the tube colors
> (5 ml. tubes) of the same shades (same brand!) were bright and clear.
>
> **** SHADE **** **** PAN **** **** TUBE
****
>
> Rose Madder Genuine (NR9) 587 dull "old rose" clear pink
> Winsor Green Blue Shade (PG7) 719 dull blue-green clear
blue-green
> Viridian (PG18) 692 dull greenish turquoise clear deep
> green
>
> I also compared (Permanent Rose & Indian Red in 15 ml. tubes):
>
> **** SHADE **** **** PAN **** **** TUBE
****
>
> Permanent Rose (PV19) 502 deep pink brighter
deep pink
> Permanent Carmine (PR N/A) 479 clear crimson+ clear
crimson
> Indian Red (PR101) 317 pinkish brick red+ pinkish
brick red
>
> This doesn't make sense to me; these colors should be _identical_ (in the
> cases noted (+) the color was virtually identical, but weaker). I don't
> think this is merely a case of pan paints being "thinner" and requiring a
> greater buildup of color on the paper to achieve the same intensity as
> tube paint. Does Winsor & Newton save its substandard pigment batches for
> the pan paints, believing them to be less popular?
>
> Fortunately, that little box holds generic empty half pans quite nicely
> (W&N half pans are a tad smaller than standard) so I can pop in some
> substitute colors, either filled from tubes or ready-made from other
> brands. I hope I don't encounter this same problem with Schmincke; I
> really like the handling properties of their pan colors (semi-moist,
> easily picked up with a brush, excellent flow).
>
> I'm becoming disappointed with Winsor & Newton artists' watercolors. I
> wonder if things were always this bad. Some salesman at a local art supply
> store told me W&N quality has "gone downhill" but he didn't say since
> when.
>
> [1] Schmincke also makes that dandy little paint box; theirs is filled
> with eight half pans.
>
> [2] Another Winsor & Newton peeve: they don't always label mixes and hues.
> It isn't real "Cadmium Yellow" unless it's pure PY35 or PY37.
>
> [3] PR N/A = quinacridone/diketo pyrrolo-pyrrole; not registered with the
> Color Index, hence no Color Index number.
>
> [4] Winsor & Newton is phasing out its genuine earth colors (e.g. PBr7) in
> favor of synthetics (e.g. PR101, PY42). I've heard these aren't quite as
> lightfast as the natural dirt pigments. At least W&N still sells real
> Yellow Ochre.
>
> -- dkra
>
> --
> **********************************************
> To send private e-mail, first subtract two thousand and one.
keith o'connor (tinmangallery.com
in PBr category.
Daniel Smith at one time sold a Burnt Sienna Water colour PBr7 ci#77492 and
DS no. 2776008 that was opaque and not semi-transparent as is traditional
Burnt Sienna.
I kept the tube because it is exactly the same iron oxide quality and colour
as the soil of Prince Edward Island Canada.
I notice it is not in their 2000-01 catalogue
take care: keith
dkra <dk...@mmi.ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:dkra-26120...@user-2ivfm25.dialup.mindspring.com...
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>
> In article <bDqW7.5694$x78....@news2.bloor.is>, "keith o'connor
> (tinmangallery.com" <scot...@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> > reference your no [4] below - yes, and for years they sold yellow ochre
> > under the name raw sienna so you can buy it under two different names.
>
> <snip>
>
> You're right. It's on the W&N 1990 "Artists' Water Colours: Technical
> Information" data sheet #6a.
>
> Colour Colour
> Colour Name Chemical Description Index Name Index Number
> ======================================================================
> Raw Sienna Natural Iron Oxide PY43 77492
> Yellow Ochre Natural Iron Oxide PY43 77492
>
> On the same data sheet:
>
> Burnt Sienna Natural Iron Oxide PBr7 77491
> Raw Umber Natural Iron Oxide PBr7 77491
> Burnt Umber Natural Iron Oxide PBr7 77491
>
> (That was when their "Cadmium Yellow" really WAS cadmium sulphide, PY37.)
>
> I would need to check the Colour Index to verify this, but I understand
> PBr7 is supposed to be the Colour Index name for "natural earth pigment"
> (raw & burnt sienna [hematite, natural iron oxide], raw & burnt umber
> [hematite, natural iron oxide containing manganese dioxide]) and PY43 is a
> different pigment (natural yellow iron oxide [limonite]).
>
> Daniel Smith sells "Monte Amiata Natural Sienna" (not always available)
> which I suppose is genuine "raw Sienna" pigment.
Bob & Dale Ford
with Windsor and Newton pans before (top of the line pans only, Marilyn
is absolutely right about the others). I have heard of some
people/stores substituting Cotman ( student series W&N) in the
sets......don't know where you bought them, but I have heard of it done,
(a lot). And if it says luxury set don't touch them, they are marketed
to non serious people looking for a hobby and are generally not even
close to pro quality. A lot of the sets with the bottles are the same
type of marketing scam. Unless you are a serious artist you probably
couldn't tell the difference, unfortunately you can.
You are right there should be no difference, take them back to the
store, they are not up to specs. My W & N pans are not what you or
Marilyn are describing, mine are good but they are over priced. Then
again I haven't bought any for a while, because they are
overpriced..........TAKE THEM BACK!!!!!!!!
Dale
Marilyn wrote:
> Exactly. W & N probably uses too much gum arabic.
> I had a luxury wooden box with ceramic palette with
> Winsor & Newton pan colours. They were very dry, and
> crumbly with weak colours.
>
> I have since replaced Winsor & Newton watercolours with Schmincke.
> New York watercolourists like Carol Brady use Schmincke.
>
> Here's a tip, make your own pans. Buy the empties and
> squeeze a little tube paint in each. Allow to air dry
> for a few days and voila you have your own little pan paints.
>
> Marilyn
>
> dkra wrote:
>
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
>> As a late birthday present + Christmas present, I decided to treat
>> myself
>> to a 12-pan enameled watercolor box from Winsor & Newton (this is
>> the
>> all-metal one with the built-in water bottle, #0190543). It's the
>> size of
>> a pack of playing card[1]. The top lid pops off and can be hooked on
>> as a
>> rinse basin. The lid folds out as a mixing area.
>>
>
> <post trimmed>
Holly Daize
>I have heard of some
>people/stores substituting Cotman ( student series W&N) in the
>sets......
I've not heard of "substitution" (implying
some sort of skullduggery) but I do know
that Cotman is the most popular variety sold
in those small "field boxes" of W&N pans.
Most popular because of the lower cost!
Most of the ads I've seen for these boxes state
that they are "Cotman" colors.
Example: Daniel Smith advertises two W&N
watercolor "Field Box" sets.
1. W&N Artist's Watercolor Field Box, $79.50
2. W&N Cotman Watercolor Field Box, $55.40
Daniel Smith also sells field boxes of other
manufacturer's colors.
Bob & Dale Ford
Holly Daize wrote:
> In article <3C2EBC4E...@mb.sympatico.ca>, bdf...@mb.sympatico.ca says...
>
> >I have heard of some
> >people/stores substituting Cotman ( student series W&N) in the
> >sets......
>
> I've not heard of "substitution" (implying
> some sort of skullduggery)
Yep I am implying that.
Holly Daize
dk...@mmi.ix.netcom.com says...
>(I understand that Schmincke uses the same formulation for their pan
>paints as for their tube paints; that is, the pan paints are simply poured
>tube paints.)
That SHOULD be the case for all reputable pan colors.
If it's not, then something has changed in recent
years. And I can think of no reason that W&N or any
other watercolor manufacturer would sell something
different in tube colors than they do in pan colors.
Incidentally, Daniel Smith advertises a Schminke
"field box" along with the two I've referred to of W&N.
>> > Here's a tip, make your own pans. Buy the empties and
>> > squeeze a little tube paint in each. Allow to air dry
>> > for a few days and voila you have your own little pan paints.
>Great idea
I can't speak for MOST watercolorists - only those I
have knowledge of. And they universally have palettes
like the John Pike which have small sections for squeezing
tube colors into. I don't know how many sections a Pike
pallete has - something like 24. These are NOT travel
boxes but full-sized palettes with closeable lids. In
any event, tube colors will obviously dry out in this
situation, becoming nothing different than solid pan
colors. I keep mine moist between uses by dropping a
drop or two of glycerine onto each color on my palette.
Bob & Dale Ford
dkra wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> In article <3C2EBC4E...@mb.sympatico.ca>, bdf...@mb.sympatico.ca wrote:
>
> > Schmicke is nice, I also like Yarka, but I have never had that problem
> > with Windsor and Newton pans before (top of the line pans only, Marilyn
> > is absolutely right about the others). I have heard of some
> > people/stores substituting Cotman ( student series W&N) in the
> > sets......don't know where you bought them, but I have heard of it done,
> > (a lot).
>
> Thanks for the information; it never occurred to me that this might have
> happened. :-(
>
> The loose W&N pan paints I purchased (not part of the metal box set) did
> not appear to have been tampered with; the "Artists' Watercolor" (_not_
> "Cotman") labels were secure. (I think the "Artists'" paints have a foil
> wrapper and the "Cotman" paints have a cellophane wrapper.) (The 12-pan
> metal box I picked up was also filled with "Artists' Watercolor" pans;
> here also the labels were secure.)
>
> If any "substitution" took place, it would likely have been in the
> factory, from the looks of things.
No if they were sealed then that probably didn't happen. It usually happens in
the stores. The sets that I have bought were not wrapped at all. That is how they
were sold around here so you can see how easy it would be to substitute. Funny
mine aren't any thing like what you are describing. Even the comparison to tubes.
Wonder if they play with their formulas every now and then. ( Then again maybe
some one changed my paints.......for the better :-)) Also the top of the line
sets that you are talking about are a lot more money here ( even if you factor
in the exchange rate) and they have mid range paints here as well.
Then again you may be absolutely correct. I use a very limited palette of basic
colours so I have not compared as many of their products or done the tests you
have. The cost was a major reason why I tired other brands. Schmicke was a lot
cheaper ( same set of pans maybe 50.00 cheaper.... even more last I looked) and
had great specs. So I figured what the hell. Same with Yarka much cheaper great
specs. Haven't tried block X.
I have been mostly using pure dry pigments lately and generally focusing on oils
so I haven't bought pans in a year. No need.
I still think you should take them back. Dress in paint splattered black
clothing. Mess your hair up. Get that weird artist stereotype going to cut my ear
off look thing going and throw a big hissy fit in the store. Tell them you get
better colour mixing pigment with dog shit. (-: Just for fun :-) And tell us what
they do.
It will keep you young ;-)
Dale
> I find the idea of this disturbing. If
> there was no "substitution" (Viridian and Rose Madder Genuine are not
> available in the Cotman range) then W&N simply makes an inferior paint
> formulation for the pans.
>
> > And if it says luxury set don't touch them, they are marketed
> > to non serious people looking for a hobby and are generally not even
> > close to pro quality.
>
> Yes, they look more like living room furniture than art supplies.
>
> > A lot of the sets with the bottles are the same
> > type of marketing scam.
>
> Fortunately, some art retailers also sell these boxes empty.
>
> > Unless you are a serious artist you probably
> > couldn't tell the difference, unfortunately you can.
>
> <snip>
>
> A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The tube stuff is definitely better.
>
> > Marilyn wrote:
> >
> > > Exactly. W & N probably uses too much gum arabic.
>
> <snip>
>
> Marilyn, my news server failed to pick up your original post. I will
> respond here (and thank you for your feedback).
>
> I compared the W&N "Permanent Rose" pan color with the tube color. The
> former dried to a luminous shine on the paper (gum)[1]. The latter was a
> deep, rich stain.
>
> > > I had a luxury wooden box with ceramic palette with
> > > Winsor & Newton pan colours. They were very dry, and
> > > crumbly with weak colours.
> > >
> > > I have since replaced Winsor & Newton watercolours with Schmincke.
> > > New York watercolourists like Carol Brady use Schmincke.
>
> I have a few Schmincke pans, and I really like the way the color handles.
> (I understand that Schmincke uses the same formulation for their pan
> paints as for their tube paints; that is, the pan paints are simply poured
> tube paints.)
>
> I'd like to try the Blockx pan (half or full pan) paints also, but I don't
> know anything about them. Their giant pans appear to be the poured version
> of their "white cap" (gum arabic formulation) tube paint.
>
> > > Here's a tip, make your own pans. Buy the empties and
> > > squeeze a little tube paint in each. Allow to air dry
> > > for a few days and voila you have your own little pan paints.
>
> <snip>
>
> Great idea, and I am starting to do this (especially useful for the paints
> which aren't sold in pans, such as Holbein and Daniel Smith).
>
> [1] Was W&N always this bad? I compared tube colors of genuine manganese
> blue (PB33) across three brands: Blockx, Holbein, and W&N (the latter two
> colors have been discontinued, and the W&N tube was purchased circa 1981).
> The Blockx and Holbein swatches were rich cyan, but the W&N was weaker and
> lighter, and had that telltale gummy shine.
Craig Luce
dkra wrote:
>
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> As a late birthday present + Christmas present, I decided to treat myself
> to a 12-pan enameled watercolor box from Winsor & Newton (this is the
> all-metal one with the built-in water bottle, #0190543).
I THINK the pan colors have some clay in them.
Why not just put a pearl of each tube color in the dandy box and let
them dry?
I have used W&N tube colors (dried or from the tube) for 25 years in
illustration, click the URL in my Org header above.
C>
ejudy
snipped stuff
>
> I still think you should take them back. Dress in paint splattered black
> clothing. Mess your hair up. Get that weird artist stereotype going to cut my ear
> off look thing going and throw a big hissy fit in the store. Tell them you get
> better colour mixing pigment with dog shit. (-: Just for fun :-) And tell us what
> they do.
>
> It will keep you young ;-)
> Dale
>
Sorry for intruding yet again but
this is a good way to break out of those
deadly doldrums of painters block.
thanx,
ejudy
Zoe Beit
Crai...@Medical-Illustration.com says...
>I have used W&N tube colors (dried or from the tube) for 25 years in
>illustration, click the URL in my Org header above.
Me too. There was a time when I swore by W&N's
product, but no longer. Not since I discovered
Holbein! I don't know for certain, but I've heard
that W&N has become the English counterpart of
the American company, Grumbacher. Good enough
for Sunday painters but not something experienced
artists use.