Temper, temper, temper...
Aster Iske
Every so often the subject comes up here. Whether or
not the use of Masonite and similar pressed-wood products
are suitable for use as painting supports. The debate
usually involves use of tempered vs untempered products.
The following proves nothing, but does reinforce my
long-held belief that there is nothing wrong with using
tempered products as long as one roughens the surface
with sandpaper, before priming with at least two coats
of acrylic gesso.
Yesterday I came across an OIL painting acquired in the 1960's
from an art student who had a 'booth' at a sidewalk art show
on the campus at Berkley (Calif). According to my friend
who knows how to count, that means this painting is something
over 30 year's old. I paid $12.00 for it at the time,thinking
of it as a 'donation' to the forlorn-looking young lady who
was so honestly trying to sell her art works. It is a
typically amateurish rendering of pre-feminist subject matter -- three
women kneeling around a crystal ball.
Most of the painting is very thinly painted in oils,
except for the crude facial features where
the paint is very thick, presumably where the student struggled
(unsuccessfully) to depict 'lady-like' facial features. As far
as I can tell the painting has suffered NO degradation over the
years that I've had it, in spite of numerous moves and having
banged around in storage in the intervening years.
The support is a piece of thin 'tempered' Masonite-type
material -- the stuff that has the screen pattern on one side
and is very smooth on the other. It is about 3/32 inches thick,
not the 1/8 inch stuff.
Since there is absolutely no reason to preserve this awful
example of bad painting any longer, I decided to experiment
with seeing how difficult it would be to remove the paint
from the board. And in a nutshell, it wasn't easy. The paint
appears to have been applied directly to the board without a
primer -- or if there is a primer, it is extremely thin. Scraping
with a commercial paint scraper tool removed some of the thinly
painted areas but it took real work to remove the areas of the
faces where the paint had been applied more thickly. As far as
I could tell, the original board had NOT been sanded or otherwise
roughened before being painted on -- when scraped to the bare
board it was as smooth as a baby's bottom.
After scraping around for a bit, I took a reciprocating electric
sander with very coarse grit sandpaper to it. After some doing,
I now have a board that I can reuse for something in the future.
But at no time did the paint come off easily, being tightly
adhered in spite of the board being rock-hard tempered stock
and the surface slick and un-roughened.
PS I sure hope no one reading this recognizes the painting from my
description!
Charles Eicher
>
>Every so often the subject comes up here. Whether or
>not the use of Masonite and similar pressed-wood products
>are suitable for use as painting supports. The debate
>usually involves use of tempered vs untempered products.
Actually, the debate usually centers around its suitability overall as a
material. Even Meyer's handbook describes masonite as unsuitable for a painting
ground, but then gives tips on tempered/untempered etc in case you really MUST
use it. He describes problems with outgassing, and notes that the edges are
easily damaged which promotes peeling of the top layer. I agree, I don't think
it's suitable to paint on.
I have often described the recent experience at my art school's storage
facility. It stored paintings in a fairly good storage environment, works from
MFA painters from about the 1940s onward. There were a lot of paintings on
masonite panels of all variations made during the 1960s and 70s, some even
earlier although I didn't really note the dates. But they recently had to move
the archive to a larger facility. And when the large racks of masonite panels
were moved by the curators, they watched in horror as about 2/3 of them had
major parts of the paintings pop right off the masonite. Some of them peeled
almost completely off, leaving only bits of the painting near the edges. With
canvas, you can usually do repairs, I've even seen techniques to transfer an
entire oil painting to a new canvas. But restoration is impossible with these
masonite panels. The paintings were swept up off the floor with shovels and
ended up in the trash.
>The following proves nothing, but does reinforce my
>long-held belief that there is nothing wrong with using
>tempered products as long as one roughens the surface
>with sandpaper, before priming with at least two coats
>of acrylic gesso.
Roughening the surface will certainly help adhesion. I know some people who will
sand the surface, seal with rabbitskin glue, and work on the raw masonite
without putting on a white ground. But it isn't clear that outgassing won't
interfere with a sealed plastic ground.
>Yesterday I came across an OIL painting acquired in the 1960's
[snip]
>Most of the painting is very thinly painted in oils,
[snip]
>The support is a piece of thin 'tempered' Masonite-type
>material -- the stuff that has the screen pattern on one side
>and is very smooth on the other. It is about 3/32 inches thick,
>not the 1/8 inch stuff.
You didn't note the size, I presume this is a relatively small work. Small
masonite pieces may suffer less with age. I think some of the problem is due to
expansion and contraction. Larger panels expand and contract more, causing the
ground to loosen. Most of the people I know who use masonite use fairly large
pieces, like a whole 4x8 foot panel.
As for myself, I've seen what I considered a "random sample" of a few dozen
paintings done on masonite, and there was such a substantial rate of damage, I
decided to not risk it and just avoid using masonite entirely.
Aster Iske
>
>In article <37c00...@oracle.zianet.com>, do...@emailme.com says...
>>
>>Every so often the subject comes up here. Whether or
>>not the use of Masonite and similar pressed-wood products
>>are suitable for use as painting supports. The debate
>>usually involves use of tempered vs untempered products.
>
>Actually, the debate usually centers around its suitability overall as a
>material. Even Meyer's handbook describes masonite as unsuitable for a
painting
>ground
If by "Meyer" you are referring to Ralph "Mayer" then I
think you must be reading a different version of his
Artist's Handbook than I own. Here is the direct qoute
from my copy:
"In the majority of instances Presdwood (Masonite Product) is
superior to wooden panels, and I believe that under the average
modern American conditions it offer the best panel support
available, at least for pictures of ordinary easel painting
size."
He goes on to say in later paragraphs that:
"The varieties selected here as durable are believed to
be permanent; they have passed all tests except the one
of actual time."
And then he goes on to recommend the Masonite Presdwood
as the MOST durable of the pressed woods.
Charles Eicher
>
>In article <7ppe28$10...@edrn.newsguy.com>, cei...@inav.net says...
>>
>>In article <37c00...@oracle.zianet.com>, do...@emailme.com says...
>>>
>>>Every so often the subject comes up here. Whether or
>>>not the use of Masonite and similar pressed-wood products
>>>are suitable for use as painting supports. The debate
>>>usually involves use of tempered vs untempered products.
>>
>>Actually, the debate usually centers around its suitability overall as a
>>material. Even Meyer's handbook describes masonite as unsuitable for a
>painting
>>ground
>
>If by "Meyer" you are referring to Ralph "Mayer" then I
>think you must be reading a different version of his
>Artist's Handbook than I own. Here is the direct qoute
>from my copy:
>
>"In the majority of instances Presdwood (Masonite Product) is
>superior to wooden panels, and I believe that under the average
>modern American conditions it offer the best panel support
>available, at least for pictures of ordinary easel painting
>size."
You didn't say which edition you're quoting, but I have the 5th ed ("revised and
updated") dated 1991. In this volume, it says:
pp 302 "In the majority of instances Masonite is now considered to be inferior
to wooden panels by conservators. It has a tendency to progressively chip apart
from the corners and edges inward. This inclination combined with extreme
out-gassing properties provides for an impermanent and excessively
self-destructive support at best."
pp 305 "The varieties selected here [including masonite] are the most durable
available; however, they are of unacceptable permanence for works of art that
are expected to last."
It appears that Mayer finally got his "test of time" and the results were
negative.
Aster Iske
>You didn't say which edition you're quoting, but I have the 5th ed ("revised
and
>updated") dated 1991.
I will have to defer to your later edition on this
point since mine is the third. I'll see if I can
find the later one in my library.
But I remain thoroughly unconvinced of the conclusions
you quote from Mayer. I think thousands of paintings
on hardboard by who knows how many different artists
over the years speaks loudly for the effectiveness
of this support material.
I do think that the tendency for damage may be greater
for this support than it is for paintings on canvas
though. That doesn't mean to me that it is any less
suited as a support material **if** properly handled and
stored. The weight of the board alone makes it more
prone to damage when not properly cared for. And the
question of chipping of corners is a very valid one
that again goes to the heart of the handling problem.
Once framed, this is no longer a concern.
You mentioned using rabbit skin glue for priming
the boards. I'd never use it -- opting for acrylic
gesso in every instance. I've done a hundred or more
paintings myself on hardboard over the years with
never a single failure of paint vs support. I've done
both full sheets of hardboard (4 X 8 foot) and
everything less. Some of my largest works were done
for commercial commissions and a few are still around
after nearly 25 years, in excellent condition. All of
those are acrylic paint -- not oils. I've painted
equally in oils and acrylics over the years with oils
used on smaller framed works.
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Charles Eicher
>
>In article <7ps6n1$2a...@edrn.newsguy.com>, cei...@inav.net says...
>
>>You didn't say which edition you're quoting, but I have the 5th ed ("revised
>and
>>updated") dated 1991.
>
>I will have to defer to your later edition on this
>point since mine is the third. I'll see if I can
>find the later one in my library.
I believe that the 5th edition is still current.
>But I remain thoroughly unconvinced of the conclusions
>you quote from Mayer. I think thousands of paintings
>on hardboard by who knows how many different artists
>over the years speaks loudly for the effectiveness
>of this support material.
Speaks more about the low cost of the material. Read Mayer, he specifically
addresses this point, as well as many others. I merely quoted a couple of
sentences, where he gets directly to the point.
I can only repeat my experiences with seeing dozens of masonite paintings peel
completely away from the masonite. I used to paint on masonite occasionally, but
since I saw this dramatic evidence of what happens to them over time, I never
use it.
>I do think that the tendency for damage may be greater
>for this support than it is for paintings on canvas
>though. That doesn't mean to me that it is any less
>suited as a support material **if** properly handled and
>stored.
No suitable storage and handling conditions exist. You're just taking your
chances, and trusting to luck.
>The weight of the board alone makes it more
>prone to damage when not properly cared for. And the
>question of chipping of corners is a very valid one
>that again goes to the heart of the handling problem.
>Once framed, this is no longer a concern.
At least in the SHORT term...
>You mentioned using rabbit skin glue for priming
>the boards. I'd never use it -- opting for acrylic
>gesso in every instance.
That would tend to exacerbate the outgassing problems, by completely sealing one
side of the masonite with plastic. I have seen plenty of panels that actually
have bubbles of gas stuck underneath the acrylic gesso layer. Glue is more
porous. Furthermore, a solid sheet of masonite expands and contracts with
temperature, this would also tend to damage a solid layer of acrylic gesso.
Canvas tends to be more durable due to its ability to expand and contract with
temperature, and has resiliency and pliability, like most oil paints. That is
why oil paintings on canvas have survived for hundreds of years, while the
paintings on panels I see in museums tend to be in relatively poor shape.
>I've done a hundred or more
>paintings myself on hardboard over the years with
>never a single failure of paint vs support. I've done
>both full sheets of hardboard (4 X 8 foot) and
>everything less. Some of my largest works were done
>for commercial commissions and a few are still around
>after nearly 25 years, in excellent condition.
And what happened to the others Maybe they were removed due to deterioration and
peeling?
>All of
>those are acrylic paint -- not oils. I've painted
>equally in oils and acrylics over the years with oils
>used on smaller framed works.
Hey, use whatever support you like. Just don't be too surprised if what the
experts say is true, and your paintings all disappear in another 10 or 20 years.
Personally, I aim for more archival results, and I'm sure that there are people
who paint on masonite who would also try for a more stabile support, if they
knew about the problems.
hermes
I've been following the debate about masonite as a support with much
interest. I've been painting on masonite for smaller works (under two and a
half feet) prepared with acrylic gesso. I have wanted the stable support,
especially when using gold leaf. I have also wanted the smooth surface.
There seems to be some concern about marine plywood as well, because of the
glue... so what would people recommend?
How about you Charles, what do you use now that you are convinced that
masonite is not the way to go? Canvas is not a choice for me when using gold
leaf.
Thanks,
Zom
----------
In article <7psons$d...@edrn.newsguy.com>, Charles Eicher <cei...@inav.net>
wrote:
(various snippets)
> I can only repeat my experiences with seeing dozens of masonite paintings peel
> completely away from the masonite. I used to paint on masonite occasionally,
but
> since I saw this dramatic evidence of what happens to them over time, I never
> use it.
>
>
Charles Eicher
>
>Hi charles and others,
>
>I've been following the debate about masonite as a support with much
>interest. I've been painting on masonite for smaller works (under two and a
>half feet) prepared with acrylic gesso. I have wanted the stable support,
>especially when using gold leaf. I have also wanted the smooth surface.
>
>There seems to be some concern about marine plywood as well, because of the
>glue... so what would people recommend?
I'm not so sure that marine plywood isn't the same thing as "door skins." I'm
using some marine plywood, its just about the same as the door skin, judging
from the description. I'm using some now (not to paint on, but as temporary
backing boards for a printing project) because its so flat and smooth (well,
smooth for wood) and its pretty thin (1/8 inch) so its light and easy to handle.
I varnish it for water resistance, attach the paper to it, print, remove the
print by cutting (scraping the remains off), etc. I use it a few times until it
accumulates too much crap when I peel off the prints, and then throw it away.
I would suspect that the same glues that make marine plywood resistant to
deterioration in boats would give it superior longevity. But I have no way to
judge this, the lumber companies don't give specs on this stuff.
>How about you Charles, what do you use now that you are convinced that
>masonite is not the way to go? Canvas is not a choice for me when using gold
>leaf.
First, I should note that the problems of masonite are at their worst when using
large panels. It may be OK for smaller works, where expansion and contraction of
the support aren't going to be as large. A 4x8 foot panel will expand and
contract a LOT more than a 16x20 panel. Unfortunately, most of the masonite
works I see are rather large, people like to use masonite instead of canvas at
the larger sizes.
I personally prefer a nicely stretched canvas, especially when working at large
sizes. I haven't tried anything like that since the last time I stretched a 6x10
foot canvas, its too much work, and I'm lazy. Mostly I paint on pre-prepared
canvas panels. I consider them mostly "oil sketches" but I have no qualms if
they somehow turn out to be "finished work." Usually, if I go to the trouble of
stretching a nice canvas, I get in a frame of mind where I have to be totally
serious, I spent so much effort stretching that I hate to even paint on it!
The only painter I know who used rigid supports exclusively was a woman who made
gesso panels on marine plywood. She was a fanatic about "proper methods" and her
gesso panels were amazing. You could sink a fingernail into the primer and leave
a mark, the gesso was so thick!
I don't really know anything about gold leaf, so I don't know what the
properties are that you'd prefer to work with. If you're just looking for a
rigid support, personally I'd go with something like a homemade canvas panel. I
occasionally have wrapped canvas around boards when I want a custom size. Once,
I even tried making a canvas panel out of a 4x8 ft sheet of masonite, but the
stuff is so damn hard, I couldn't get staples into the panel to secure the
canvas.